The Zach Lowe Show - Inside the Drawing Room, Lottery Reactions, and Heartbreak for Boston With Bill Simmons

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Zach is in Chicago to give a first-hand account of last night’s NBA draft lottery, but first he’s joined by Bill Simmons to discuss the unfortunate injury to Jayson Tatum (0:46). Then, Zach gives a behind-the-scenes look at what went down in the drawing room (20:28) and what comes next for the top teams, before the two close with some final thoughts on where the playoffs stand (49:00). Host: Zach Lowe Guest: Bill Simmons Producers: Jesse Aron, Jonathan Frias, Brian Waters The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It begins on October 1st, 2025, it ends on June 30th, 2026, multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right, welcome to a semi-emergency edition of the Zach Lowe show,

an all-time emotional swings wild night in the NBA Monday night. I'm in Chicago. I was in the lottery room, rushed back after schmoozing with people to watch Celtics Knicks. And obviously that ended horribly for the Celtics. There's a lot to go through. Bill Simmons, I listened to a good chunk of your live reaction with Kyle Manageal House last night

and that had to tap out to watch the basketball games. But, you know, we don't know yet. It's 10.30 central time. 11.30 Eastern time, there's been no official word. It doesn't look good. It doesn't sound good. I fear the worst case scenario, which not only would end this season, would probably torpedo next season. And obviously it ends their repeat goals. That was, I think, I think that was a big motivator for them to break this no repeat streak that will now continue presumably in the NBA. and raises a lot of questions about how would the Celtics who were already looking at a financial

crunch and whatever handle something of a gap year? I mean, are you even ready for these kind of discussions? This is obviously, like, J.T. is, he plays every game. He is an Iron Man. And last night, look, the Celtics were already down seven and kind of teetering when he got hurt, but he was having one of the greatest games of his career pretty much on par with game six in Milwaukee to save their season in 2022, game 7, 50, whatever, against Philly and a blowout. That's how good he was.

And it's just, you know, what can you say? The guy plays every game. He plays hard. He plays both ends. He's a beloved player. It's just, if this is what it is, it really sucks. This sucks. Yeah, that was the best two-way game.

I think I'd ever seen him play up until the point he got hurt. Yeah, I woke up at 530 this morning. Check the phone to say if there's any news. We still don't know, but I think we're like 99.9% sure as a torn Achilles. that's definitely the vibes coming out. They lost the game before it happened. You know, and I mean, that's a whole separate conversation. But the big picture Tatum thinks to me, I was looking, like, he had to be one of the three

most durable stars of this century, right? LeBron, Janus, and Tatum. And when you think about how he looked athletically and physically just yesterday, he was all over the place and really at the peak of his powers. Now the question with an Achilles, you know, a lot of times it happens to older players. I don't think Clay was ever really the same athletically. Well, he had the double whammy of ACL plus Achilles. Right. Boogie Cousins, center, never the same. Kobe happened way later in his career.

We don't know with Kyrie yet, but you go down the line. Aaron Rogers last year didn't look right. But they're catching it, you know, they're basically, you punt on next season with him. You don't try to rush him back, I think, for any reason. And you just try to, you basically punt down next season, which basically puts them in the same position the Patriots were in 2008, where this is an all-time traumatizing injury. You lose the season and you hope the guy comes back. Yeah, I was trying to think of precedence. I mean, Durant is close but was older.

Tatum just is like barely 27 years old. They're like smack dab in the middle of his prime with like even more room to grow. So Durant obviously came back as Kevin Durant. That's super encouraging. And like KD, Jason Tatum is big, not as big and tall as KD and has a sweet jump shot, not as sweet as KD's. But like he has, I think there's, look, we're not doctors. We don't know.

But I think there's reason to hope that if this is the injury that it is, and we don't know, it's 1036 central time now. I think there's a reason to be optimistic that he can come back as pretty much Jason Tatum. I mean, I certainly wouldn't rule it out. and at least like 95% of Jason Tatum. That would be the hope. Right.

Well, and then you go big picture, you'd think how much, I don't want to say luck, but how fortunate the last eight years were with the Celtics run, right? Or even you go back the year before they got Tatum with the Isaiah Thomas year, all the way through to this year where, you know, they're competitive pretty much every year. Tatum's in the league eight years. They're either favored to win the title or one of the favorites, I think, for six of the eight. The Hayward injury was bad luck. And then this year, they seem like at least the favorites to get out of the east.

Now this feels like the 09 Celtics a little bit, although this I guess would be the 09 Celtics season where it's like we could have gone back to back. Didn't happen. What does this look like now? The Celtics came back. They made the finals in 2010. This is a younger team.

But it's hard not to think. I, you know, there's two things going on here. One is like, oh, fuck, is Tatum ever going to be the same? And then the other thing is, what do you do with the Celtics short term and long term now? Because I was going through, I mean, people have gone through these numbers, but they're starting five just for next year is $188 million. That includes Tatum. The top nine with Alan Cornyd, who are both free agents, 205 plus the two free agents. Second apron is 207.8.

They're going to be way over that. Their salary is going to be in the high 220. Repeater tax kicking in, too. Repeater tax, tax bill, all of it. And it's just hard to fathom that they're not going to make some moves. And it's going to be Drew and White and KP one or two of those three. I would assume would be the guys they trade. Well, this, I mean, if next year is a true gap year, you are granted as a franchise a little bit more leeway in terms of like how dramatic you can make.

I mean, I've already had front office people from other teams. me like this could be Warriors 2.0 when Stefan, when Durant left and Steph got injured, like, could they actually tank? And I'm like, I don't, they have too many good players to tank. We just had a lottery, which we'll talk about in which we saw yet again that the tanking teams all didn't get the payoff that they wanted to get. Like, it doesn't actually, the efficiency isn't quite there anymore. I just think they have too many good players. But, and then you look around, it has to be a short-term thing because they owe their pick to the Spurs. There's a spurs. have a top one protected swap with them in 2028. They owe their 2029 picks. So they're already sort of

all in on this team. But they have their next two first, which I think, for some reason in my head, I didn't think they had their 26, but they do. And they have their 27. So if they were going to do, I don't think that I wouldn't say tanking, but I don't think a rebuild is as crazy as what you laid out. But how do you're already removing Tatum? But how do you do it? Do you have to move Jalen? like like so that's like that's the other one you know and that's that i don't want that to happen because i wanted tatem and brown and play their whole careers together but but brown would be the other piece kp is an expiring free agent 30.7 drew's got three years left and white's got four years left so i i think drew and kp would be the two hauser makes 10 next year he's another one that

could uh potentially go but you know they they have players that people are going to want if they're trying to win a title. The problem with some of these trades, though, is you still have to take back contracts to make the trades work, right? So there's only, I was, ironically, I was looking at this a couple a few days ago to figure out, I was starting to do the prep for the summer. There's a couple like Duncan Robinson type contracts where you can waive it before June 29th. Fiam Vlite has one now where you can waive him before you don't have to guarantee the contract before June 29th. And so you can basically trade it, trade for it, and then dump it. But man, I just can't believe when you think where the Celtics were 10 days ago to where we were this morning,

Googling Achilles injuries, Googling tax stuff. I had some dark Google searches today, Zach, including like Timberland boots and Achilles injuries. Oh, God. Like, that's how bad it got for me. Yeah. Well, I still am like emotionally scarred from Cole Anthony doing the dunk contest in Timberlin boots. He did one dunk in Timberlin Boots, and I was like, that seems dangerous. I wouldn't want him to do that.

So you mentioned all the guys, right? Jalen is Jalen. He's a franchise rock. He has not had a good series against New York. He did not have a good game last night. Awful. That's right. The handle is rickety.

Again, negative assist to turnover ratio. He's shooting 7 of 31 on threes, I think, for the series, 38% overall. But he's a foundational Celtic. Drew, with those three years left at his age, I don't even know what his trade value would be. Porzingis on an expiring coming off injuries, this virus mystery, and just, I mean, he's looked horrible this entire series for the most part.

He cannot make a shot from two or three. And last night, I'm watching the game. And obviously Tatum gets injured and then you just sort of blank out the rest of the game. But as the Celtics are teetering and the Knicks, the Knicks have been the tougher team in this series. Brunson has been the best player in the series. and Nobie made big shots last night. Cat sort of like...

Bridges was the key second Nick last night. Bridges is like, I could hear you screaming. Like, this is why you traded for McHale Bridges to run the offense when Brunson is on the bench. Robinson played 25 minutes, his second eyes total of the whole year. The him and cat combo has been good. Like the Knicks have earned, earn that win and have earned the right to be one game from the conference finals. By the way, can you imagine, just for a second, we're going to get there. Can you imagine if six, six, seven months,

after that trade, we get a Wolves, Knicks finals. Like, it's not off the table right now. It's very much actually on the table. But anyway, I just want to say that because we're not going to talk much about the Knicks. Porzingis, what, like, what am I? But what I was thinking was like, why was Pritchard not in the game for Porzingis last night down this? Like, I was like, and I checked. I was like, did I miss him getting in foul trouble?

He's been awesome the whole series. Porzingis can't make anything. I didn't understand what they were doing. And my point is, what are you getting for Christophe's poor Zingis on an expiring contract? You're getting someone else's dead money that they don't want for more years. Are you attaching a pick to get off of it if you want to get something good? Like, I don't know what you're getting for that. White is the guy that you could probably get a mother load for.

This is the best he's ever been. He's on a good contract. But like, I don't want to trade Derek White. He's awesome. That trade changed the entire trajectory of the Celtics franchise. He's an awesome, awesome player. I want to trade him. I don't know what you do.

Yeah, it's, I, there's a whole. separate conversation about game four, what happened that it's tough to think about because of how badly the Tatum thing ended. But holy macro, I thought Missoula in the second half, the Knicks shot 30 for 45 in the second half. They made 67% of their shots. Brunson couldn't miss. It was an incredible Brunson game. The Knicks in the first halves of the four games, 41, 38.6, 39.5, 42.6. They made a bunch of threes in the second half of game one. Game two, they should have 48. But, I mean, that was really the first great shooting half they've had.

But the Celtics defense played a huge part of it. Like, they lost Brunson over and over again in the third quarter. The Porzingis, did you see the defensive ratings for Porzengis and Al Horford together? They played 14 minutes. They had 140 defensive rating per 100 possessions. And I'm with you. Him not playing Pritchard enough in the series is the reason they're down three one. I couldn't believe.

Period. That's the biggest mistake they've made. The Knicks can't match up with them. I felt like I was losing my mind. Like I checked the box score. I paused the game and I checked the box score. So did I miss like four Pritchard fouls? And what is Porzingis doing in the game?

Why was Derek White on Jalen Brunson for that entire time when Brunson just cooked him over and over again? Derek White's a great defensive player. But we've seen this like skinnier guys. Brunson is really comfortable against. He gets to his spots. Drew has been much better. And like I just didn't. But anyway, that's.

But that, but that, we shouldn't gloss over how great Brunson was in that game. He was a little bit of 18 in the second half. He made every big shot. And he basically took this Tatum game that was threatening to become not only one of the greatest games of his career, but the greatest game of his career. And he started matching the points. And then it became the Nick's best five versus the Celtics best five. And the Celtics best five, you take out Hauser. They're not playing Pritchard.

Porzingis is a disaster. Al Horford, on one day, Red. who was luggage again. That's another reason I was worried about this game. When, you know, Al Hartford's 39. He just doesn't have the same bounce.

And they just, the Knicks have just, I don't feel like they've stolen this series. Like they've come through in these fourth quarters now three of the four times. And that's the whole point of basketball. So, you know,

the Celtics were going to lose this game anyway. I don't know what happened to Jalen Brown yesterday. And the irony of Tatum getting hurt in that play where Jalen just fumble, fingered the pass, but that was the whole game for him. He just seemed out of sorts for two hours. They just weren't good enough. And when you think you're defending the title with the success that

this team has had, it's a mystery. The coaching was a mystery and the way they played and responded. It was just weird. It was widths of 2022 when they would just melt down in crunch time too often and like just walk up. It was the same thing that happened in game two, which was really the story of the series is there is I thought game two was a much worse loss than game one for them I agree just all the bad habits came to roost and then the Tatum thing is obviously a basketball tragedy if it is what what we fear well and then you think like so Hauser gets hurt I have no idea what happened to KP in this in in this entire playoffs like they need to send him to like the sore bone or something to like do experiments on like what is going on I don't understand like what's happening to his body with

this virus yeah supposedly battled anemia in the past and it kick. I don't know. I just don't fully understand it. And then, you know, they got Drew Holiday. And he's one of the best defensive guards of this century. And it just didn't seem like he could stay in front of Brunson. And Brunson was the best guy in the series for these four games.

So, you know, even you removed the Tatum injury out of it, Brunson outplayed the best guy in the Celtics until the guy got hurt. Yeah. Credit to the Knicks. Just we're all still waiting. I will say this though. I think the Pacers are really good. Oh, for sure.

Like the Knicks have the second best odds to make the finals now. And to me, that's a 50-50 series. I think the Pacers love playing the Knicks. They're going to press. They have a deeper team. They're going to pressure the Knicks. They're going to pressure Brunson. They're just going to throw guards at him 94 feet.

And we've seen them, you know, be really comfortable against the Knicks. I think that's going to be a really good series. No, no. I only brought up Nick's Wolves possibility because of the, the funniness of that trade hovering over the entire season. Nick. So, KC. would be weird. Yeah. With Hartstein coming back against his old thing.

I think every combination now is weird. Minnesota, Nix, Minnesota, Indiana would be, I think, the smallest market series we've had since, what, San Antonio, Cleveland? Oof. Well, the one thing, and it's too big of a thing to do. to do properly now is, you know, I think somebody tweeted this, a guy named Lev Akabas, who does data visualization stuff, tweeted it last night. The rise in All-Stars getting injured in the playoffs, missing games in the playoffs. I saw that.

It's Steph, Tatum, Dame, the Cleveland guys, and it's been up the last few years. And it was part of the conversation at the GM's meeting yesterday, although it got overshadowed by other topics to get to, is like, you know, 82 games plus like, we're just going to completely change the rules in the playoffs to allow football, basically. Plus, the rest gets shorter in the second round than it is in the first round. And plus the game is just more spaced out, more movement, more cuts, more threes, more everything than it used to be. It's too anecdotal to draw firm conclusions, but is there a discussion to be had here about how physical the games have gotten in the playoffs? Or, I mean, it's like a third real issue for the players union in the

league. But like, it's time to talk about it. 82 games is too many games. Like, you know, it's, you know, Like they're just, we don't need 82 games other than that's what they get the pool of money from. And everyone is afraid to think about if the pool of money shrinks, would it get bigger eventually with the new TV deal, with an expansion fee, with every regular season game meaning more. But like every year we get to the playoffs now, it feels like every season is just who gets injured the least in May and June and wins the title. I mean, we've been talking about this for how many years. 15 years. which be a 70 game season max. I think basketball is just harder to play than it used to be.

And watching these guys break down over and over again, even though they have better equipment, better conditioning, better training, better dieting, everything. They shouldn't be getting hurt more. They should be getting hurt less, right? We've never seen this many Achilles injuries ever. It's a lot of lower leg stuff. I think...

Hamstrings, just hamstrings upon hamstrings upon calves, just calves, whatever. the proper word is. Yeah, and as somebody who watched this whole Celtics season, Tatum just got pounded all year. He takes, like, the, you know, and part of it is he's this incredibly durable six-nine guy who can guard three, four positions, who's the best rebounder on the team, who goes to the basket over and over again, who takes big hits. But he took a big punishment and he had a big, big, big burden day after day after day, no different than Janus, no different than LeBron and some of these

other guys that we always feel like are superhuman until they go down and get hurt. But yeah, listen, I don't think they're ever going to care. I think it's, I think Greed's always going to win out getting those extra 12 games during the season and the six home gates and all that. They're just always going to pick that.

And the Emirates Cup, baby. Emirates Cup, Milwaukee Bucks, 20, 25. Emerits Cup. 83 game season. But if they, if that, himself I really wanted to make a difference, improve the quality of the league, improve the sport, he would make the season shorter, and he would fight for it, and he would get these guys to buy into it.

And look at the Celtics right now. Okay, you got the six extra games during the season because we have 82, but now you're not in round three or round four. You just lost $150 million in playoff revenue or whatever it is. It's like $15 million a game for them because your best guy went down. So I think they should think about it. The injuries are alarming. I saw that stat too, and it backed up what you and I have been noticing and talking about.

The only two guys, really the only guy that hasn't been hurt is LeBron. Even Janice. Janice has gotten hurt. He got knocked out of two playoffs, right? But he still seems like he's superhuman. But Dwight Howard, Kobe went down finally. He blew out his Achilles later in his career. But Duncan, like go through 21st century, everybody.

went down. Yeah, I think they have to look at it. I don't think they'll fix it, though. This episode is brought to by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously, but you know what else is? Collecting basketball memorabilia, and that's why you got to love eBay. It's like a never-ending merch store, vintage basketball cards, old school jerseys, one-off fan-made artwork.

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Well, the other big topic at the GM's meeting from what I was told was tanking and whether the lottery reforms have succeeded or failed. And boy, let me tell you, Bill Simmons, did all of that discussion amp up times 100 when the lottery results came in last night? I was in the room for the 10th or 11th time. Yeah, let's hear it. Take the floor. Clear out.

Tell us what happened. So, like, I'm kind of, I was like, I've done this enough times. Like, I don't need to be in the room again. Hey, maybe I'll just do it. It's fun. You get you're sequestered with these people there. They have, like, Sam Presti has to talk to me for 10 minutes because we have nothing else to do. And he's there, by the way, just as a, he sat with the media in the gallery because there was no spot for Oklahoma City.

He's there just in case they get so. He's just hoping they fall to seven and he gets the pick. And boy, did he have a roller coaster of emotions as did everybody with the Sixers. And I am so glad I went because this was bar none the most insane. like the amount of murmuring and whispering and like looks around the room during the lottery drawing, which is normally silent, was unprecedented. Unprecedented. What do you?

Just want me to go? Yeah, go. So when do you realize? Because they do, it's four numbers, right? Yeah. And they start with one. That's what people don't realize. In the room, they don't go backwards.

They don't go four to one. They start with the first four gets the number one pick. Right. So they do the first, like, number. And then you, are you, can you follow in real time the combinations or you're just being told what's happening? You can try, because they have a whole, you have this whole for YouTube people, this whole sheet of paper with all the combinations and who belongs, what four number combinations belong to which team. And you can see the team guys like riffing through it. So basically, all the worst teams, Utah, Washington, poor, poor Joe House, just unbelievable, have all, have all, have, have,

all the ones, twos and threes. All right. So the first ball comes up 10. And we've lived this movie before where a high number comes up. Everybody's in play with the high numbers. Second ball is 14, which is the highest number.

And now there's like, uh-oh. Like now it's just everyone is still in play. So 10 and 14 means the latter is officially drunk already with two balls left. Then 11 comes up is the third ball. And at that point, either at that point or sometime during this. second drawing, Justin Zannick, who is representing the jazz, and Will Dawkins, who was

representing the Wizards, I think Justin looked at Will and was like, oh, oh shit, like this is not, this is the level of murmuring that was going on. Like, uh-oh, this is not going well for us. 10, 14, 11. So I looked at the sheets today. Here was what was in, now there's like this delicious 20 seconds where everything's in play, almost everything. If the number, if the last ball was is a six, Blazers win the lottery. If the last ball was a one, wizards win the lottery. If the last ball was a two, pelicans win the lottery. If the last ball is a three, Brooklyn wins the lottery. If the last ball is a four, Toronto wins the lottery. If the last ball is a seven, Mavs. If the last ball is an eight, the bulls win the lottery. If the last ball is a nine, the kings win the lottery. And here's the

kicker. If the last ball is a five, a 12, or a 13, the Spurs win the lottery for the second time in three years. The Spurs actually had the best odds in that 30 seconds of winning the lottery. And Brian Wright's like 22% odds. Which, by the way, did you see the hockey lottery that was broadcast on, I don't know who, maybe ESPN, I don't know who did it. They broadcast the actual, like, as the TV show. They did the, they did this as the TV show. And they had a big board updating the odds after every ball came up, like they had the percentages for the number one pick and they would change. That was really cool. The broadcast itself was a little problematic, but anyway, the Spurs actually had the best chance. So Matt Ricardy was representing the Mavs.

Matt, I don't know what his title was with the Mavs. He's been a scout for a long time. He was a scout in Brooklyn for a long time. I know Matt pretty well. So I'm talking to him afterwards. And he goes, and Andre Patterson was representing the Blazers. They were sitting next to each other. And Andre confirmed this. During those 20 seconds, Matt Ricardy, representing the Mavs, turned to Andre and said, it's going to be a seven. Now, you can say that like it's bravado. It's like it's going to be a seven. It's going to be us. And Andre was like, well, if it's a six, it's us. And then it turns seven. And the whole room pauses because only a couple people realize it's Dallas. And a league lawyer is combing this big easel that has all the combinations. And he says Dallas. And in that

moment, it was not an eruption because it's impolite to erupt with, like, they're already starting the second drawing. Everybody was dying of laughter, like muffling their laughter, looking at each other like, are you kidding me? The Dallas Mavericks had a trade. So it's like that incredulous crowd sound. Just it's so incredulous that it didn't even dawn on anybody that Philly has now been potentially knocked down one. It dawned on Sam Presti for sure that Philly, who needed to be in the top six and entered at five has now seen a team jump them. Okay, so everyone is like, oh my God, are you fucking kidding me? The mads, and the jokes afterwards were great.

I'll get to that. Okay, ball two or drawing two. So Dallas is now one. First ball 12. Okay, high number. Second ball 13. At this point, Ned Cohen, who's representing the Sixers, the Jazz people, the Wizards people, the Hornets people are all.

all just like, I don't even care anymore. Just give me a one or two and a three. So no one else jumps up from the bottom and knocks us all down. They're like rooting for each other at this point. All the crap teams are like, whatever. If it's you, that's great. If it's you, that's great. It just can't be another team knocking us all down.

12, 13, 11, 5 spurs. Everyone's like, are you like again the spurs? They get the number two pick. Then you start thinking about Janus, like, the spurs actually to me become a more likely. I'm not saying likely. I'm just saying there are chances of really sniffing around Janus as a trade target, I think go up with the number two pick versus number one.

And I think they definitely are like, we're just keeping Cooper flag. He's amazing. Yeah, I agree with that. We talked about it last night because there's two ways to go, right? You could say, all right, we'll take Harper. We'll grow together with this little young nucleus we have and see where it this two years from now or you say, fuck it.

Let's go. Let's go for this now. We could have Janice and Wemby at Darren Fox and Castle. Let's see what happens. I think the door is ajar, at least a little a jar. So the spurs get two. Everyone is like, well, they just got Wemby. They almost got flag.

Now they're two. And then it dawns on everybody. Oh my God. Philly is fucked. Philly's down two teams have jumped. Because two teams have jumped them. Yeah. They're down to seven.

Presti is well aware of this, I'm sure. sitting in the front road, like, delighted that his odds of getting a top-10 pick have just skyrocketed. And everyone is now digesting that worst-case scenario for Philly has unfolded. This is like, what a cataclysm for this franchise that has endured so much, much of which has been self-inflicted. Would you have even gone if you were Daryl? Daryl was in the book. No, I know he was there. Was it too big of an emotional swing? Would you have been able to be around other people? I feel like I just would have stayed home in a dark room. So here's the scene. Okay. So, so Philly ends up being drawn next, which, which ends up like the gasps, like, oh, Phil. It was like pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Right. And their guy, Ned Cohen, who worked for the league for a long time and has been to many lotteries as like a league person, what went from just distraught to euphoric in the span of 15 seconds. Like we're completely sure. And then afterwards, then we all watched the show, right?

We all watch the show knowing the results, which is delightful because you know that guy is about to get their heartbroken. That guy on TV is about to go crazy. And let me tell you, usually the show is background noise and everyone's eating and mingling. There's food. No one's really paying attention. Everybody was wrapped, silent watching the show, bracing for what is their reaction in the room going to be when Dallas wins the lottery? Just wrapped. And so we're watching the show.

and Kevin de Gandhi says, and with that, Philadelphia loses its strap pick. And everyone in the room starts laughing because, A, we know that's not true. We know what's coming next. And B, we all went through the same emotional ups and downs as Kevin de Gandhi. And then I go up to the ballroom afterwards.

And Daryl's there looking tense, I would say. Like he just had his cold removed? Yeah, like a little almost haggard. Yeah. Elton Brand is facetiming with someone celebrating. Nick Nurse is there like this is the best thing this happened to Nick Nurse

in a year and a half in Philly and they tell me like they all heard Kevin DeGondi say that and Nick Nurse and Elton Brand were like oh my God we're screwed because they can hear the broadcast they're like oh my God we're screwed

Darrell didn't hear Darrell was so intense that he told me and Nick told me like he didn't even realize that Kevin de Gandhi had said that like he just tuned it out completely and then grew confused like there was this moment of like

are we screwed Are we not screwed? And then they weren't. It was just an absolutely wild, wild scene. So what were the Philly ping pong balls then? Philly ping pong balls are three, seven, five, ten. Which it's probably the ten that gets it for them. And then Charlotte comes forth, knocking Utah to fifth and Washington to sixth.

And those guys just have to put on a brave face and say, like, well, we knew like 50% chance we would be five or six. And meanwhile, it's like, oh, my God. Do you like the doing for four instead of three with the lottery boss? Like that somebody can get knocked backwards that many spots? Although I guess it would have happened anyway. So other than some Mavs jokes, which were good. Yeah, we got to talk about that. Well, there were people in the room.

I'm not going to say who were like, oh, Nico knew all along. Nico knew what he was doing all along. And then there was some jokes about defense wins championships because Cooper Flagg's pretty good defensive player. Then there was some jokes about Cooper Flagg. I forgot this is a new balance guy. And does he not have the Mamba mentality because he's a new balance guy? And how's that going to go?

Are they going to pass on it? Because that's the Mamba mentality. But the number one, the two big discussion points among the brain trust there afterwards were number one, I can't believe the West just got the first two picks in the lottery. And how does the East keep sucking? And we lose Jason Tatum two hours later. Tatum's gone. Is Janus going to go to the West potentially?

Like, how does the East keep lucking into this? And is it time to like, you know, revisit one to 16 seating or something? But the other one was, and this is what you're getting at, are these tanking rules a good idea? Because this is the consequence. This is what the league's teams voted for when they voted to reform the lottery in the wake of the Philly process. They voted for chaos. And then you get chaos. You get the Hawks jumping up to get Risa Shea from nine to one.

You get Houston jumping from 9 to 3 last year with Brooklyn's pick or whatever they jumped. And now you get this. You get to Spurs again. You get the Mavs getting bailed out. The Mavs gift the Lakers a life raft for the post-Lebron era, which was supposed to be their own life raft for the next five to ten years in the NBA. And then are gifted another life raft to replace the one they gifted the Lakers. And so this is chaos. This is what you voted for when you flatten the odds.

sometimes chalk is going to win and a lot of times this is going to happen and the discussion afterwards was you know a this is what you voted for b is it good is it good that the worst teams are increasingly going down the lottery and see is it good if those teams begin to realize incrementally this tanking isn't working well enough for us to just shoot ourselves in the foot and have put our fans through misery. And is it worth it if the Utah's Washington, Charlott, who's ever in those positions sort of decides to be more competitive on a year-to-year basis, which is the goal of this tanking reform, which really has not materialized because these teams are still tanking to the point that the league is fining Utah and it doesn't pay off. So I, look, I think on balance,

it's too early to judge the rules. And some people who were shocked by the outcome, by the chaos, by decent teams picking so high in the draft are like, A, hey, this is what we voted for. Like, this is what you voted for. And B, if it discourages tanking, is it still worth it? And it hasn't discouraged tanking yet, but maybe it will.

That was the number one topic of discussion. Didn't discourage tanking. I like the rules this way more because, as you know, I hate rewarding incompetence, which is where we were for years and years and years. where, you know, Philly broke it in the 2010s with how they handled stuff. But, you know, if you're going to do it, go back to the old way, I then think you have to change the rules a

little bit so you can't win the lottery twice in a row or you can't be in the top two, two years in row. And, you know, you got to add wrinkles that make it so that you can't be bad for like three years in a row. But I didn't mind what happened yesterday, to be honest. this is what they voted for. They voted 29 to 1. And you remember who was the only dissenter, I think, was Oklahoma City. In Oklahoma City, their viewpoint on this, Presley's viewpoint on this was, this is the only way small markets can get superstars.

And you are minimizing our chances of doing it through lottery flattening. But like, this is what you voted for. You voted for chaos. You voted for more competitive balance. And like, people are still like, is it good? Is it bad? And it was a big topic of discussion at the gym. GM's meeting before this all happened.

Well, the bigger issue is there's so much talent in this league now that even if you tank for a couple years and you end up in a situation like, wait, just happened to Utah, where you, how many years did they throw away now? Three or two, I can't remember. I mean, they threw away like half of each of the previous two seasons and then all of this one. And now they have nothing, nothing at all to show for it. And you're also in the West where you still have the worst roster of the rest. You know, so I don't know.

I mean, if you're just looking at this, if we're writing this in a professional wrestling standpoint, flag going to the Mavericks is hilarious. It was the funniest outcome. The best basketball outcome would have been San Antonio to watch him with Wembe. But I don't know. I don't feel bad for some of these teams because they disgraced the sport of basketball for two-de-half months, you know? This is kind of how it goes.

And it didn't work out for the Celtics in 07. I mean, we've had all these teams that didn't work out for Charlotte in 2012. When they, what do they go, like 5 and 45 or whatever that lottery was? Yeah, it was something really, really hard. Seven and 59 is sticking out of my hand. Yeah, whatever it was. Yeah, that might have been it. But, you know, so it's not like this has not happened before.

I'm okay with the lottery ad. So I can't tell. Are you for it or against it? No, I'm okay with it. And I think I agree with one of the people in the room last night, a team person who said to me, you know, the point that some people tried to make in the GM's meeting was, because the league was already sort of kicking around, do we need to change this? Is this working? Is this not? And a couple of people said, hey, like, before we tweak this again, like tweak upon tweak upon

tweak, can we just give it some time to see if it actually works? Can we enforce the player participation policy so that the jazz get fined for sitting marking in before they've done it 10 times? And like, can we can we lean on them a little bit more to like, did John Collins went into? to like the witness protection program for two months. Nobody knew where he was. I tend to, I tend to stand. The Philly stuff was the funniest. Yeah.

I mean. That was, I mean, I don't even, they made up injuries I'd never even heard of before. And then they're like, here's Adam Bona. He's going to be playing 48 minutes a game now. And I, I tend to think, give it some time. This is what you voted for. I think discouraging. I think trying to three.

thread the needle between discouraging the most abject terrible tanking, but also still having a system where the worst teams have a better chance than the best lottery teams of picking high. I think this is an admirable attempt to thread that needle that needs more time to see how teams respond to it. And obviously, other people have pitched more aggressive reforms like back in the real tanking debate you had, should it just be completely random? Should all 30 teams have the same chance? Should we completely divorce record from draft position?

Even people have gone the other way and said, the best team should get the first pick. We should reward the best teams. There's obviously the wheel that Mike Zarin proposed and all that. My response to that, that's all stupid. My response to that has been you're going to like that idea right up until the Durant Warriors get the number one pick in the draft or the Celtics right now get the number one pick of the draft.

And then you're going to say, much like you were saying today with Dallas and San Antonio, but on a bigger scale, what in the hell have we wrought here? So I think this is a nice, balanced system that needs more time. And it's going to be chaotic some years. And in some years, the Wizards are going to get the number one pick. I kind of like it. I just want to see it for a little bit longer. The bigger issue to me is where the league stands right now with talent.

If Tatum's out for a year and Janus goes to the West, right? Let's say Janus does get traded to San Antonio. And just look at the East compared to the West. This was the standings this year. Cleveland, we have no idea what's going to happen to them next year. The Celtics. The Knicks, they'll be good. Indiana, shore.

Milwaukee and flux. Detroit. Maybe one guy away from being interesting. Orlando, the same. And then we go Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, Toronto, Brooklyn, Philly, Charlotte, Washington. None of those teams are going to be good for the next two, three years except maybe Philly. And then you go to the West and it's like, it's a freaking murderer's row. Like if you're Golden State right now and there's like this is the last dance with with our guys like it really is the last dance.

You have no way out of this now and you're in the West with, you know, eight, nine awesome teams. I, the one thing there was some, I was bouncing around today. I was watching ESPN. I was reading different websites. And people were wondering about like could Dallas trade flag for Janus, which we talked about last night when we did our thing. I was thinking about it today. Mahoney and I talked about it yesterday. Yeah, I think that would be really stupid by Dallas.

I described it as suicidal. Yeah, it's just like you're basically adding 12 years to an asset. You're buying into somebody who's already put together this seven, eight year run who I don't know where it's going to go the next five, but he's got some miles on him versus like you're buying in a flag. He's still 18 who can fit in with the roster you have now because he's so good defensively. you can play small forward. The only thing I would ever have a meeting for if I'm them is if San Antonio

basically offered to overpay for the flip. I heard you say that last night. I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. How many picks are we talking about? Do you want to go all of our picks? Like two thirds of them? What's at least have the conversation?

But I just think Dallas is going to take them. And I don't think there's, I just don't think there's a trade that would make sense, especially like Dallas doesn't have their picks from 27 on, you know, Davis is 32. Kyrie's coming back from his injury, but you figure, you know, this allows them to thread the needle both ways. I thought that idea of San Antonio chasing the number one pick was interesting. More interesting to me almost if I'm putting myself in the spur shoes than trading the number two pick at a whole bunch of stuff for Janus.

But here, do you want to hear my snap reaction? action to this, all of the top three picks based on, you know, like, everyone is still digesting this. I saw a bunch of people. I saw that. I talked to a bunch of people. Here's my like gut. Number one, I don't think Dallas is moving that pick for Janus and probably not anybody. The vibe I've gotten is like they, they, they realize the life raft that they have been gifted and they're not going to mess with it. But also, also it's hope for a fan base that either gave up on the team and moved on to somebody else or is so mad at them, now they have something to hold on to.

And I don't think you give that up. This could all change depending on lots of different things, including Janus is going to have an enormous amount of power dictating where he goes or working with Milwaukee. But I think Dallas realizes the gift they have been given. That's my gut. My gut at number two is it's a very interesting spot for the Spurs. And they're not going to take anything off the table in terms of possibilities for a bit here.

there were people saying to me, affiliate number three, is that a team that should consider moving that pick for a veteran for a win now move? I haven't talked to anybody there about it. My reaction would be absolutely 1,000% no. I could not bet anything on Joelle and Bede staying healthy on Paul George's aging curve.

Like I can certainly not bet. If I'm low on all the prospects, maybe, if I'm high on guys that are going to be available for there at that spot, I am taking that, I'm taking whoever I like the best. I'm gotten McCain. I've got Maxie. And I have a map to if Embed is just never the guy again.

If George gets old, I've got, I'm, I am not cashing in chips. If George gets old. Well, if he continues getting old. George gets old a year ago? But do you agree or like I would not, I'm holding, I'm not, I'm not doing anything. I'm not cashing in any future assets that are good to help this team. I'm, I'm writing this team. I'm not writing them off.

I'm writing them as like, I just got to see it before I make any kind of move like that. So if Orlando dangled them Franz for Paul George and number three, you're hanging up? Why would Orlando do that? What do you mean? Franz, his contract kicked in. That's like a contract match, isn't it? Yeah, but Franz is good and young and he's our guy. And if they love someone at three, I guess, I mean, that is the kind of guy you would have to think about it for because he's the right age.

In that level, right? Yeah. It's the right age. Or it's like, yeah, it's somewhere it's around that class of. That's not bad. Of player. It's not bad. I think Philly keeps the pick and I think they take Edgecombe.

I have no inside info. I just having known Darrell for 20 years, Edgecombe seems like one of their type of guys. But it's a weird one because you could also say it makes way more sense just to have Max and McCain, this number three pick and just go young, right? but they can't because they have this Embed extension that they just gave out that nobody's going to want. And then Paul George for three more years.

So they're kind of threaded the needle both ways. I wonder, that's maybe that another possibility is they could trade back, dump a contract, still keep some sort of asset. But yeah, it's a weird one. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines?

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Same-day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. I mean, we're 12 hours removed for 15 hours, whatever it is from this chaos. Just the level of... Who do you think are the best players that might actually be available? in June other than Janus, who I'm still not convinced is going to be available. And I said this on my pod yesterday. I still didn't really fully understand that story

where it's like Janus is now open-minded about maybe, like I would assume every star is open-minded every off-season. He didn't ask for a trade until he asked for a trade. It's a non-story to me. Well, and we've seen this before. We've seen him tiptoe to the edge. Two years ago, he was on the cliff, like with a bathing suit on right of the to make the jump. So we'll see. I did the timing to me ahead of the lottery. It was like this feels a little bit like setting the stage, but we'll see.

In terms of players available, some of it is going to depend on the playoffs, right? Like if Cleveland loses this series, how do they respond? If the Knicks make the finals, do they just like end up standing Pat at this point and not chasing a guy like Janus? I don't know if they could have gotten in there. Anyway, Miami, I don't know what they're going to do. Trey Young. Any Trey Young interest?

on your level, someone with the Rockets? There's a little bit of, I'm interested to see how aggressive Detroit gets this summer if you're talking about a team that's kind of here and maybe wants to go here. Durant's the obvious one, right? Yeah. Yeah. Booker, the sons keep insisting, no, no, no, okay. Is there a Jaron Jackson, maybe?

Something is going to happen in Memphis. I don't know what the possibilities really. realistically are. I mean, everyone's looking at, the speculation will probably surround Morant, but I just don't know what his market is. And Triple J's got the big extension coming. Is there something with San Antonio Memphis that wouldn't shock you? It's interesting. Sharon Jackson, the number two, a whole bunch of things. My guess is that I think they keep Sharon Jackson. But, and then, you know, OKC is another one. If for some reason they fall short,

they don't win. they have all these picks. They're not close enough for whatever reason. Do they get a little more aggressive? I mean, Presti won one finals game. It's going to go down in history as like the greatest GM who never actually won a title or came close. Well, I mean, these guys are still so young.

But I get it. I'm just saying like at some point, when do you cash in those chips? What are you going to do with them? So the question would then be, first of all, they're two-two in this series after an awesome win on the road. I picked them to win the series in six, right?

And I would say I'd probably pick them in seven. But let's say they have a decent chance to win the series, right? Like a 55-45 chance. So let's posit that. Are you throwing in in this big trade? Are you trying to keep J-dub and Chet? Or are you coming to grips with the reality where you might have to move one of them?

What is your hope as GM of the Thunder? Thanks for asking. I would try to build around my three and try to upgrade around and maybe solve the issue that they seem to have now where they have seven guys for five spots at the end of games, which can be a great problem to have or, you know, watching game four and they end up winning. But it was kind of tough to keep Wallace off the court. Like he was really good that game. Also, Lou Dore was off the court. You could make a three. But, you know, maybe maybe you try to cash in and get somebody.

awesome for on those spots. I don't know. It hasn't been Presti's thing. Presti's always been about asset accumulation and never really panicking. The only time he really got a little gamey was that last Durant year. That was when he started. Remember, he started making some moves, started taking some swings. But yeah, I'm with you. I think this OKC, Denver series goes seven. I love the series. The Celtics, I just, I think it's going to be so hard for them, even to win game five with basically a five-man team. All the offense running through Jalen Brown, which if you've ever watched the first three minutes of the second and fourth

quarters can be an absolute roller coaster ride. My dad calls them the Brown minutes. But you think like the Knicks, that series can be done in five. Indiana feels like it's going to be done either in game five or game six, although they're like seven and a half point underdogs today. I was surprised by that. Minnesota seems like a wrap.

and okay see Denver seems like it's our one chance to have a long series we didn't talk about the Minnesota yeah are you buy are you buying are you buying what we're seeing here with them because it's the best they've looked all year I I picked him to win the series before Steph got injured I do think the warriors have been pretty game without Steph like they've I mean they fell behind by 20 last night and threw the white flag pretty early but they're just I mean you talked about Oklahoma City having seven guys for five spots. The Warriors have like four guys for five spots. It's the opposite. Four guys for nine spots. And when one of Heald or Pajemski is not on the floor, they have, they have no one that can shoot. I mean, they have no shooting at all. So it's not

been the toughest test for Minnesota, but Ant looks awesome, just poised and not going haywire. Like the haywire factor has been tamped down for the wolves all playoffs long. Randall looks great. And look, they match up well with both Oklahoma City and Denver. They've played both those teams well. I'm not saying I'm picking them over either of those teams, but I think they have a real chance to make the finals, regardless of who comes out of that other series, especially if they can wrap this in five and get a little time off.

They're healthy. They're deep. Their rotation is rock solid. Like they know exactly who should play when and with who. And I don't see a path. I mean, Steph, is he really coming back in game five? based on his interview with Mark Spears, it doesn't seem likely.

Is he really going to come back? I'm hearing game six for a while. Is he going to really do that? I mean, are we going to get there? I don't see a path to them winning if Steph, I just don't see how they win in Minnesota if stuff is not playing game five. That would need a heroic effort from Butler

who didn't have it last night, predictably. Like we talked about it. I talked about it yesterday with Mahoney. Like he's coming off an injury and he just isn't going to bring that. They needed to win the Jimmy Butler game. in game three when he really brought it and scored 30 or whatever and they didn't win.

And I've already started thinking about is there any kind of pivot for the Warriors or is this just like the Butler trade is indisputably a good trade. This is a good team. I don't really know if they have another move. I'll tell you what's been a disaster. Comeg a sign in trade time. Yeah. I mean, look, they have 170 million next year.

Yeah. So they're budding up against the tax for Curry, Butler, Jermond, Moody, Pajemski, Healed. Jackson Davis and Post and Santos are non-guaranteed. So they like Comingo sign and trade, like Comingo Walk, you have the mid-level. They got some stuff. I'll tell you what's been a disaster. Moody, Moody just like not even being able to play in this series has really killed them. Shocking. He was really starting to look good in April.

And then it just died. Yeah, he was looking like a real guy. So I don't, this is maybe just to your point earlier. They're like, I don't really know what their next move is. You know, they have their picks other than the one pick they owe to Miami this year, which is totally worth it. I just don't, you know, I don't know. They have one chance in game five. And here's the chance.

Minnesota loves to play with their food and rise and fall with the level of competition. And they're up three, one in the series. And they're like, oh, we just need to show up. And they have seemed immature at times, right? Like the game two Lakers series I went to. they just kind of no-showed the first half and it was weird. And then Edwards like slowly got into the game. But that would be the one outcome.

And then just trying to drag it back for game six, I don't see it though. O'KC Denver is the series left. And, you know, I hate to sound like I'm throwing the white flag on the Celtics, but when you think nohouser, Tatum's out who does everything, there's no silver linings in this Tatum thing, but at least people will finally understand how much he did for the team game to game when they don't see it for 40 minutes out of the 48.

The way Porzing is playing, I just don't see any scenario where they win a game the rest of the series unless the Knicks just shoot like 20% from 3. That's it. The Knicks would have to just have a brick fest. And the Knicks are just, they are, even when they don't play that well, their floor is very competitive

because they slow the pace down. They don't turn the ball over. they offensive rebound and they just have good players across all their minutes are now going to good players like Robinson has been unbelievable McBride seems to make every three

off an offensive rebound that he gets you know what I noticed last night that I noticed in game three too even though they Nick's got killed but Brunson fights so hard when he gets hunted and he uses some of the playoff physicality to his advantage

like he's just like he's throwing the elbows in the guys But he's turned it that it's not a walk in the park just to be like, oh, I got switched on at Brunson. I'm going to torch this guy. He really fights. That whole team fights. And I think the Tatum injury kind of overshadowed what an awesome game that was for the Knicks. Like they really, really, really showed up.

There was multiple points in the first half where it seemed like the Celtics could blow that lead out to 20, which has been every game of the series. They hung around, hung around, hung around, hung around, and then really came back hard. And I don't know what happened in the Celtics defense in the second half, but the Knicks just played better. Unquestionably, they've been even though it's weird

to say this because I felt like the Celtics could have swept the series. The Knicks have been the better team. The whole point is to like when you have to raise a level when it matters, they've done it in three of the four games and Celtics didn't. You mentioned Brunson on switches. Kat has been really good on switches

against Tatum and Brown. He's been bad in pick and roll coverage when they've tried to like normal. pick and roll card. He's like stood, stood his ground on switches, and that has baited the Celtics into all their worst habits.

I mean, like, it sounds crazy to say, the guy, I think, has been the best attacking Kat and Robinson on switches. The big guys on switches

among Boston's players is Pritchard. Like, Pritchard's step back, his rhythm, his, like his range, it has really fooled those guys, which was yet another reason

why I could not believe he was not on the floor last night. I was so mad the first two games that he didn't play more. And then in game three, he played a ton. And then I was mad that he has pinned to notice it for an hour and a half before they finally, when he had like 20 points, they're like, oh, Pritchard. But he was the key to the first half of that game.

And then in game four, he didn't even come into the three minute mark, which I thought was weird. And to play the double big lineup over just playing Pritchard, like 35 minutes a game, I just don't get it. I don't understand why they'd played it that way. I also don't understand why Tori Craig couldn't have played four minutes in this series. that that was a weird one to me too when porzingis looked the way he looked you know basically all porzingis was bringing in the table was being able to put his hands up and being seven foot three he can't shoot anymore but he can't shoot they were just leaving him open by game four they weren't even guarding him and i think he's had this entire series i think he's had one post up

on a switch where i felt like that was a good post up where he takes where he plays bully ball and takes the extra step in all the other ones have been like all right you're going to take a 16 footer and like, you're not going to make it. Also, they got away from the Drew Postups, which I thought were really effective. They stopped doing the things that the Knicks don't want them to do. Drew postups, Pritchard in space against the Knicks, you know, just like basic stuff that was working. It's like their brain breaks when they start losing a lead.

Like Tatum, before he got hurt, he took like that 30 footer when it was a three or five point game. It was like 20 seconds in the shot clock. and he just jacked one up. It was like the whole team was just panicking, which is weird. They won the title last year, Zach. Panicking is a good word because that's why game two

was a more disturbing loss from hitting game one. Right. Because game two was not about the volume of threes. It was a little bit about the volume of threes, but it was more about just, why are you rushing these crazy shots, twos and threes? Yeah.

Instead of running a real offense. Like, what's happening to? Where's your composure? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we will always. always remember as long as we do this, May 12th, 2025 for crazy and sad reasons. We still haven't gotten word.

It's now 1130 Central, 1230 Eastern on Tatum. So maybe there will be a plot to us we don't expect. But regardless, May 12th, 2025, the day the Mavs won the lottery, the day the Spurs almost won the lottery, the day Tatum went down and the Celtics championship hosts seemed to go down with him. What else? Anything else happened? I forgot Ace Bailey's measurements came in lower than people.

maybe even anticipate, I don't know, it was a crazy day. What a day. Oh my God. Well, and also this team that sells for six, this team that sells for six point, whatever billion dollars that it ends up being once the bully tax goes in. And from two months later, now the best guy in the team whose five-year contract is kicking in is going to be out for the first year of the deal. And you have all these dramatic decisions to make. pretty tough spot for a new owner

but listen the Celtics have been incredibly fortunate really since the KG trade when you think like they won two titles probably could have won a second one with KG

I think they should have the over was like one and a half I think the over under with this Tatum era at least at this point was at least one and a half they're under that but they still you know the Brooklyn trade was amazing

the Tatea Brown thing, getting Derek White. They made so many good moves. And they played a lot of this perfectly. And now you end up with one title. Now you're looking at where are we going for the next couple years. It's just weird that this is now uncertain. This felt like the most certain situation, at least in the East. And now it's uncertain. Unbelievable. Well, we're still digesting it. Bill Simmons, the live shows both with Ryan on Sunday nights and last night, you did a special one with Kyle Mand and House, have been awesome. We're taping again tomorrow, right?

I'm doing a pod tomorrow night, and I was going to do a fourth one later in the week, but I think after tomorrow night, I might throw the white towel. I don't know. It's been that kind of week. All right. Thank you, sir. All right. Thanks, Zach.

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