The Zach Lowe Show - Knicks Complete the Sweep! Plus, the Wizards Get the First Pick, and Will Wemby Be Suspended?

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Zach is joined by Jon Krawczynski to discuss the T-Wolves-Spurs series and what will come of Wemby's elbow to Naz Reid. Next, Jonathan Givony joins to discuss the NBA draft lottery results. Finally, Fred Katz joins to discuss the Knicks sweeping the 76ers and who is the better matchup for them in the ECF. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show!(02:17) Jon Krawczynski joins!(04:27) Past elbowing comparisons(08:48) Should Wemby be suspended?(12:31) Ayo's catch(14:00) What adjustments can Minnesota make?(30:30) Jonathan Givony joins!(34:17) Lottery's biggest winners(43:27) Peterson going no. 1?(01:00:43) Lottery's impact on Giannis and Brown trades(01:12:31) Fred Katz joins!(01:14:49) Knicks sweep Philly(01:28:19) OG's injury status(01:37:58) ECF potential matchups Host: Zach LoweGuest: Jon Krawczynski, Fred Katz, Jonathan GivonyProducers: Mike Wargon, Jonathan Frias, and Billy GilSocial: Keith Fujimoto and Michael Szokoli The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! https://michelobultra.com/courtside MICHELOB ULTRA COURTSIDE ’25 to ’26. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1, 2025 and ends on June 30, 2026 Multiple entry periods. See Official Rules at https://michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Coming up from Chicago, we have a loaded Zach. low show we're going to go inside the lottery room what was it like in there what was the reaction and jonathan gavoni is here to break down all the scenarios what are the wizards going to do at number one what are the jazz going to do at number two is okayc actually going to try to make a push into the top four if so will anyone bite memphis moves up to number three what does that mean for john moran chicago off to a running start on its next phase of rebuild all the lottery implications pacer's clippers

wow that was the big outcome of the night for me we'll talk about Kevin Pritchard's tweet and the ramifications for both the Pacers and the clippers going forward. John Krasinski joins to talk about what is now a wild wolves, spurs series, whether Wembe will or should be suspended for game five after elbowing Nas read and all the nitty-gritty of that series. Then we wrap it up with Fred Katz from the athletic talking the New York Knicks obliterate the Sixers, get to the conference finals for the second straight year waiting on Detroit, Cleveland. We talk about how, what have the Knicks found in the last two weeks since going down to one against Atlanta? What's changed? Can they sustain it? Are they riding the sort of magic that happens to teams that get on championship runs?

Can they actually win the championship? Will they be favored next round? And where does Philly go from here? Tons of stuff. NBA is going crazy. Lots of stuff going on. We're going to cover all of it coming up on the Zach Lowe show. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by Fanduel.

It's been a wild playoff run. but it's not over yet. And Fandul wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. Fan duel is the best place to bet the teams, the players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off.

Download the Fanduals Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 over in select states, 18 or over in D.C., Kentucky, Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler. Call 1-88-7-9-7-77 or visit ccpg. slash chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show

where we preempt coverage of the lottery that's coming up next to talk about what is suddenly an absolutely wild wolves spurs series. Victor Wenamianama throws an elbow. We've had a Tony Brothers versus Chris Finch, Royal Rumble. We had the NBA's version of the helmet catch by Ayo Dissu last night

when it looked like the wolves might and probably collapse amid a hail of turnovers. Nope, it's 2-2. Victor Wenbanyama was ejected early in the second quarter for smashing Nasreed's throat with an elbow, a nasty elbow at that. And it didn't look like we would be here, Mr. Krasinski. Game one, the wolves steal it.

Game two, blowout. Game three felt like the moment where the spurs asserted their supremacy. And the wolves, like they do, just whatever you think is going to happen, the other thing is going to happen. Anthony Edwards looked more like Anthony Edwards, sensational fourth quarter on his way to 30. points. We have a series in the conference semi-finals. It must have been a wild bloodthirsty atmosphere

last night at the Target Center. It was, Zach Lowe. I mean, when you look at this whole series, there hasn't been a normal game, it feels like, in any of them. And that was anything but normal at Target Center on Sunday night. I mean, you have the elbow. You have Anthony Edwards with ground beef for knees, just like willing his team back into the fight. You have the spurs young guys, like really taking it to the wolves. I mean, there was just great theater all around. It was super tense. I, you know, I think we're getting to a point where both of these teams don't really like each other, similar to wolves nuggets. And so that kind of animosity breeds entertainment as well. And I can't wait to see what we still have in store for us in this

thing. We are recording this at 10.30 in the morning. We do not know Victor Wenbanyama's status for game five. He was justifiably ejected. It was an absolute no-brainer. The moment I saw it, I was like, well, that's a flagrant too. I don't care who he is. He's out of the game. It was early in the second quarter, which I think actually is going to matter for the league's

decision here. I am going to predict he does not get suspended for game five that he gets fined. But I will say this. I went down a rabbit hole last night of elbow-related fines and suspensions. Have you done any elbow- Bow-related research? A little bit of it. Yeah, I mean, you know, the Hassan-Whiteside one kind of came to mind. You know, I had a fun. I said the same thing, Zach, was like after the game last night, I just said, I would be surprised if they, they suspended Wembeian because he does not have a history of violence. And I had a bunch of people in a reply saying, well, meta-world peace. And I said, like, what are we talking about here? Like, we can't do that. Grow the meta world piece near decapitation of Oklahoma City era James Hardin out the window.

It does, it's irrelevant as a precedent. I will say this, you could find whatever precedent you want in these elbow stuff in terms of fine versus suspension. I'll just go through. Can I go through a feel? Please, yes. You mentioned White's side. I can't remember who he shoved. That was like an after the play like, it was a Celtic, I think, nasty like forearm into the back.

He was suspended a game for that non-basketball play, I believe, after the whistle. Vince Carter was suspended one game for kind of a retaliatory elbow to the head of Stephen Adams, who is the victim in several of these incidents, which is broadly similar to what Wembe Nama did. And I believe it was it was a regular season game. He was suspended one game. J.R. Smith was suspended for one playoff game for a swing-through elbow. he was playing for the Knicks on Jason Terry. Jason Terry was all up in his jersey.

He was annoyed. The Knicks were up by 20 midway through the fourth quarter, which again is relevant. And he swung through and he smashed Jason Terry's head. He got suspended one game. Those are all. And by the way, I don't think the wolves are going to lobby at all. I think the wolves are just going to be like, whatever happens, happens. This guy's an amazing player.

He has no track record of anything. We're not going to do the thing where we're badgering the league office. Like, look at this, clip. Look at this clamp. Suspend him. And they don't want to, if he's suspended, fine. If he, if he's not like, yeah, we're not going to, we don't want to win cheaply. Then you can go the other way.

Here are some other ones I found. Andre Drummond was fined, I think, $15,000 for elbowing Roy Hibbert in the back of the head. Kind of a softer elbow, but the back of the head, you just never know. It didn't look as violent as Wembe's. David West was fined either 15 or 25 for elbowing Blake Griffin kind of in the throat. but again, not with the same force that Wembe had. The closest one I could find of a fine was, this is a deep cut, Samuel Dallumbert, when he was playing for the Knicks,

pretty viciously elbowed Jonas Valenciunis, who was on the Raptors, hit him flush in the face in the third quarter, regular season, and was just fined. So again, like, you can go, you can do the thing if you're a fan of this team, you find this precedent, of this team, you find this other precedent.

I will say this. Of the ones that were just fine and not suspended, and I'm sure there's a longer list, Victors was definitely the most violent and the most targeted. Like if they actually suspended him, I really don't think the spurs have that much of a gripe because it was a very violent, very targeted hit. And they're lucky he hit him in the throat and not in the face because you can't, head injuries are different than, you know, like kicking a guy in the groin. whatever. It's just a different level of risk. Just based on the violence of it, it's a suspendable

offense, but it's also you can find precedent for just fining that are pretty similar. And I think the reason he won't get suspended, and I'm okay with this if a little squeamish is, number one, he has no track record of anything that I can remember anyway. Number two, it was early in a game, and he essentially was suspended for that game for the most part. And number three, and I'm not sure how you feel about this, but it's not just that it's the playoffs and it's a huge game. And nobody wants to see a huge game decided by this, by people leaving the bench,

by whatever letter of the law thing happens. The NBA has clearly decided that the playoffs are going to be a completely different game than the regular season with way amped up physicality and that people are going to be elbowing him and fouling him and everybody, just across the board. It's going to be wildly more physical. And I think they need to take ownership a little bit of something like this where it's like, yeah, if you let that stuff happen, if your standard in the playoffs is this, things like this are going to happen. And I'm not excusing it.

It was an awful play. It was super dangerous. It was super violent. But I do think the argument that we have to treat it a little bit differently because of the context of the playoffs, not just the importance of the game, but the environment. of the games is pretty legit. So I'm going to say they find him. I'm going to be okay with that. And I also think Wolf's fans,

which would be fair to say, if this were a different player with the same track record, even a lesser player with the same track record, he might get suspended because it was a very violent, very targeted. Like he looked at him, he wound up, and he smashed Nasrid in the throat.

Yeah, I think that to start, I would say I'm with you, Zach. I don't think he should be suspended in terms of, I don't want to see that as the swing factor in a series that has been competitive against two, with two really good teams, and something that was, you know, violent and, but I don't think malicious in that way, because the one thing that did bother me about the play, Zach,

was that you can tell in real time, he looks over his shoulder, he thinks for a second. He knew. And then he acts. And so there was premeditation involved there. And he didn't fight about it when he was ejected. He was like, okay, that seems right. I'm ejected. I'm ejected.

Okay, bye, bye. And I'll say to this, to your other point, I understand him being frustrated. Like the wolves have gotten very physical with him. They have bumped and banged and chipped and done things to try to frustrate him and get under his skin. There are wolves fans who will pull a million clips of Anthony Edwards getting followed going to the best. and Rudy Gobergen hit in the head as well. This is just a really physical series. And so that does not justify the elbow at all.

But given he is not Draymond Green, he has not met a world peace, he is not even like a Dylan Brooks or Lou Dort, I just don't think that there's enough to look at and say, this guy has a history of these issues and this goes above and beyond. And so we are going to suspend you for a game. But it was absolutely violent. It was reckless. It was premeditated.

He lost his cool in that moment. And it was pretty frightening. You're right. If he's an inch higher, who knows where Nasreid is right now? I think both outcomes would be fair. Like, I think you could make a legit argument for finding him and letting him play and or suspending him for one game. I'm going to be fine when they don't suspend him.

All circumstances, I'm not going to feel great about it. I'm not going to feel like, oh, it's a no-brainer. It's the right outcome. like Stephen A's tweet last night about like, I hope they don't suspend. It would be abysmal, blah, blah, blah. I don't think that. But I think it's acceptable to not suspend him. So let's assume that he indeed is playing game five.

He did not play the last 2.75 quarters of game four. And the wolves tried hard to not win the game and ended up winning the game behind a brilliant Anthony Edwards game. And I don't want to sleep on the two threes that Terrence Shannon Jr. made late in the third quarter when the spurs were up like eight nine all of a sudden it's like kind of trouble time and he hit those corner threes those were huge shots and uh you know down the stretch they made enough place to win it got a little ugly at the end could did you have an angle of the helmet catch or the Justin Jefferson catch or whatever it was so I not in real time because where we're sitting we're on the opposite baseline and so jade macdonials I had the great view of

the pass he made a great quarterback Peyton manning throw um but I couldn't see I-O on the other side of it because there was defenders in the middle. But then you watched the replay. And I thought initially he caught it cleanly. And then I saw, no, he did not. He used his foot. He, you know, one of my editors at the Athletic Zach Pierce tweeted, like, the foot of God, like, you know, Maradona's hand of God.

And that's what it felt like. And not only did he hit it with his foot, but then he gathered himself and was able to grab the ball before it went out of bounds. like that was the most incredible part of the whole play. They're up three. They're up three at that point, right? Yeah, hanging on by a thread. It definitely looked in midair like, oh, my God, this is just disaster unfolding. Justin Champani is going to come in and hit a three.

This is going to be the most wolves playoff loss possible. And then I.O. made an incredible play, sealed the game. And it was over from there. And by the way, you take out game two, which I realize you cannot do. The scoring margin of games one, three, and four combined is zero. It's dead even in those other games, which is interesting. I don't know. Like, let's assume he plays, Wembe plays Game 5.

Just what's left on the table for Minnesota in terms of adjustments on either end of the floor that you are interested to see? Yeah, I do think that one thing that they went away from that worked somewhat in game one. I mean, Wembe had 12 blocks. He was amazing in game one. It was incredible. but one thing that Terran Shannon Jr. said afterward is like he's going to have to block everyone. We're going to keep coming at him. And they didn't really do that in games two, three, and the start of four. They looked a little bit more scared of Wemby. Understandably, he's swatting everything.

Like it's understandable. What they were settling for floaters. They were not making a lot of their bunnies. And they were not shooting enough threes, I think. So if you look for a counter with Wemby, on the floor. This is a very good shooting team, even with Dante DiVincenzo out, that I would expect that they would try to shoot over the top of him a little bit more and then get that to spread the defense and then maybe open up a few more driving lanes for them. But they haven't really shot at volume threes in this series, and I understand why, and especially with Devencenzo out. But, you know, you have the Anthony Edwards. Mike Conley's hitting a couple of threes. Shannon is hitting some timely threes.

Like you can do a few more things to breathe some more space into this offense. I think that's going to have to be big part of their diet going into game five. Yeah, their three point volume is way down. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One is Wembe Nama and his ability to guard the paint by himself. So no one else has to help. Another is they have just not let the wolves get in much of a rhythm in their pick and roll game. Like the wolves get threes when Ant and Gober on screen roll.

and they draw two and the ball starts flying around. They haven't blitzed Ant or put either been up to the level of the screen. They're doing one of two things. If it's a regular pick and roll, they're dropping back. And I think the most encouraging sign from game four in game three, but particularly game four, was Ant started to poke a hole in that a little bit. He made a couple pull-up threes. He made some mid-rangers.

He attacked Fox on switches now and then, which is, I think, something he could do more. He had a couple explosive drives to the rim. He started to poke holes in that. or we're just trapping you at half court before you can even run a pick and roll and we're confident that we can rotate out of that especially when Wembe's on the floor. So the rhythm threes just haven't been there

but I wonder given his success in game four kind of poking at their pick and roll scheme if they can get a little bit more of that. The other guy that I'm watching is Randall who's averaging only 14 a game and I just I expected a lot more. The spurs are giving him whatever, matchup he wants on switches. Like it takes one screening action. And if you don't want Castle,

because he's tenacious, you can get Vassell, you can get Champany. You might even be able to get Fox. And I expected a lot more just deliberate get Randall a matchup and let him attack. And let him attack in space, particularly when Gobert is off the floor and they're trying to play Wembe in like a one-man zone on the back line, put shooters in the corners, let Randall go against a favorable matchup. And I thought in game three, they just kind of lost their plot on offense a little bit. Like, Aunt would get doubled and give it up and then just take himself out of the play completely. He'd stand at Half Court being face guarded, which fine, he's spacing the floor.

But it's Anthony Edwards, man, go get the ball back. And Randall was just like a statue on, no matter who was guarding him. It could have been a favorable match. He wasn't coming to the ball. He wasn't demanding the ball. When his guy would throw a shade toward Ant, he wouldn't do anything, he wouldn't cut, he wouldn't screen. And I'm like, man, it just feels like there's so much low-hanging fruit for Julius Randall. woes to grab. I don't really understand why they're not trying harder to grab it.

Yeah, and that was one of the big issues in game three, or no, game two, Zach, when the spurs really started to blitz and at the half court and double him there and trap him, uh, Randall and really the rest of the team was not moving to make themselves available for the pass to then trigger the four on three. And, and so it's been inactivity on Reynolds part, but then also the other part about Julius Randall that has really struggled the series is like even when he does get the ball and tries to make a move, he's turning it over all the time. That's true. He had four turnovers in the first half. They're handsy, man.

They're handsy. And both Oklahoma City and San Antonio are very handsy defensively, very quick. And those types of approaches have given Randall fits in the past. And he has to find a way to be stronger with the ball and make better decisions. mostly just do not give it up in traffic the way that he has because when they do, that's a turnover. San Antonio is going the other way. They're really good in transition and they're scoring points that way.

And so they need a more composed, more poised Julius Randall in two of these last three games if they're going to pull what would be a huge upset. Huge upset. If Wembe is not suspended, the Spurs having two of the last three at home, no DeVincenzo, and limited. He must be started. to feel a little bit better because it's not just a production, it's that some of the trademark ant baskets have started to reemerge in the last couple

games, including he's got a couple of backdoor cuts where he's cut pretty explosively and then finished. That's just trademark ant stuff. The other guy is like Deerrin Fox is averaging 16 a game, 16.8 on 38% shooting and 22% on threes. And there's just been multiple moments in this. series and in this playoffs where it's like man i would really like with wemby either out or ejected or whatever so man i really would like see d aaron fox kind of step up i mean

he's been fine he got off to that quick start in game two didn't put up big numbers because they didn't need him to and everyone was like oh yeah great d aaron fox showed up he had 16 points great um i don't i mean i just think they're going to need more from him and that that that that contract is going to be interesting to monitor uh going forward I'll tell you, Zach, like, watching this series in real time, it feels like every time a Spurs possession ends with Fox taking somewhat of a contested jumper or a jumper at all, that's a win for the wolves. Like, he just does not look reliable right now in getting to his spots and knocking down shots that I've seen him making his sleep in the past. I almost wonder if they're going to go under screens a little bit more against him because the Spurs, smartly in game two, three, and less so last night, obviously amped up the pick and roll usage

with Wembe, which I think is really smart, particularly when Randall's on him, just uses gravity. And a lot of that depends on Fox making enough shots. And he's just not making enough shots. Yeah. And I'll tell you, like, right now I would venture to guess an honest wolves insider in that locker room and on that coaching staff would say they're much more scared of Dylan Harper than they are of Fox. He's been unbelievable. Like, the way that he just is relentless in attacking, Castle has been great as well. They are both weapons that are hard to deal with,

with their physicality, with everything else. And Fox just is not on that level right now. And so unless that turns around, if Mitch Johnson keeps putting the ball in Fox's hands, I think that the wolves will live with that. Yeah, there was the one baseline drive where I think Shannon was on him and he like really drove hard baseline and hit the brakes. and Shannon fell out of the play.

And it was like, oh, that looks like Deerrin Fox. Like, that's the fast twitchy guy. He's just not getting by guys and getting open shots as easily as he was in his prime. And, yeah, we'll see. It's two to. The spurs, assuming Wemby plays should still win. I mean, that game three was a pretty majestic performance. But Wempe, the Wals having 1.6 minutes into the game was just like,

I don't even know what you're supposed to do. But, hey, man, the wolves, you got to give it to Tim Connolly we get into the Gobert thing a little later in this episode but like that trade is worked out and this team is just tough as shit they show up and they're down a guy they're injured, I-O's been injured

and here they are at 2-2 and you could chalk it up to Wembe getting himself thrown out of a game but they were winning the game when that happened and they hung on to win the game without him and like you can only play the guys that are in front of you and here they are like after a weird up and down season and oh my god

fans are wondering if Chris Finch is the right coach and this mix of players and by here they are two two in the conference in the finals again. It's amazing, Zach. Like it's a maddening thing because they're really individually talented, but it just seems like unless their shoulder blades are scraping against the brick wall behind them, they don't really bring

everything possible. And even last game, like they, you know, they do think they relax just a little bit or breathe the side. leaf when Wemby left and then they were still in a fight and I just can't say enough about Anthony Edwards. His knees are at maybe 60%. He can pick like four or five times a game where he really goes. I agree with you in that I do think he is getting stronger as the series goes along.

He's getting his win back. He's getting a little bit more energy. But he is operating at a level where he has to be crafting. in a way that he never was before. Like it was all power, it was all athleticism, it was all overwhelming. Now he is thinking the game, he is getting to his spots,

he is just willing this team forward. And it's just great theater to watch. You have Wembe on one side, you know, killing the wolves in game three. And then you have the wolf season on the line, down eight in the fourth quarter, and Ant just erupts. And he cannot dunk on anyone right now.

He cannot like just blow past everyone, but he can still find a way. And that's pretty amazing stuff to watch. Yeah, he had, it was in game three. He had a post move where he spun baseline on Julian Champany, I think. And he roasted him, like he spun real fast. And he went up to finish. Maybe it wasn't Champany. Maybe Champany met him at the rim.

It was another wing that met him at the rim. And it was a below the rim finish. And healthy Anthony Edwards is either dunking that or drawing a foul trying to dunk it. just doesn't have that kind of explosiveness right now, but he gutted it out last night, 13 of 22. How do you have in the fourth quarter? 16 in the fourth, yep, 16 in the fourth. All, every kind of shot imaginable.

Just the guy is a gamer. By the way, do we know for, I'll stop my head, I can't remember. Was there like an event where the, is this just wear and tear on his knees? Was there an event that like, there was the thing that looked like a hyper extension? Was that the last round? Yeah, that was game four against Denver. Yeah. already playing with like inflammation in his in his right knee similar to stuff and and and and and and and and stuff

koree was dealing with and that was the left knee against ember and then the left knee against ember where he landed on it and it looked like there were people who told me like I thought it was sean livingston all over again like and so they just dodged a major major bullet and he is wolverine like he's he heals faster than anyone you've ever seen before. And but like even like last night talking to a couple of players in the locker room after the game, even, you know, kind of off the record. And they're just like, I can't believe what he's doing right now. Like, did you just like, you see what he's putting his body through.

You see like how he's feeling on the off days. And that dude is just going out there. And that's why Nasreed is getting up after taking the elbow from hell. That's why Iyo is playing through a calf, even though he's a free agent at the end of this. this season like aunt is setting that example and walking the walk and talking the talk it's pretty incredible uh any parting thoughts on this series in game five coming up uh before we let you go here's what i'll say like one thing that if you want to be a wolves optimist in this it's i do think

that i what i see in wembenyama is definitely what i saw in anthony edwards at 21 22 years old in that he gets a sense of of, he has a taste for the jugular, but sometimes he goes a little too far with it. He wants it too badly. And you'll see Wemby take a contested three like in a moment or a heat check kind of turn around and that opens the door going the other way a little bit. And Ant did the same thing, like all the time. You could always tell up, this one's going up for three. A step back three is coming because he senses that moment. And I think in game one, Wemby sort of punched himself out early because he wanted to just absolutely dominate the game

and he didn't have quite enough gas in the fourth quarter. I wonder if coming into game five, he is going to be so motivated to atone for what happened in game four that maybe he's almost too amped up. That's really the only hope that the wolves have because if he's locked in and just ready to play, I mean, he's an absolute monster

that I don't know that anyone can do anything with. And so if he's under control, it's hard to see the wolves figuring a way out. of this. If he is just sort of caught up in the emotion of it and wanting to deliver a statement and is a little too wild, then maybe that that that, that, uh, kind of opens the door for the wolves to, to make a move and steal this thing. Yeah, he was much more calculated in games two and three. And part of that is just like, I mentioned this on the last episode. I think he had a, he had a pick and roll where the wolf switched in game three and put Jada McDaniels on him.

And he just rolled Jada McDaniels into the post, sealed him, got the ball. And I can't remember if he scored or drew a foul. are both. But that was just sheer like, I want to do this. I'm doing this. I'm not going to do the other things that you want me to do and shoot threes. And he caught a bunch of lobs and all that. So we shall see if he plays, how he plays. But the wolves in the playoffs, it's always a good time. And John Krasinski is always there to document it for us. Thanks for your time, bud. I know you're busy. And now it's time to talk lottery with Jonathan Gavoni. Thanks, Zach.

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prizes, and details. All right, everybody knows yesterday was one of my favorite days on the NBA calendar. the NBA lottery, the last hurrah of this kind of lottery, probably assuming the NBA gets its way and passes a whole new lottery system. Not quite as dramatic as years like last year when there was a Dallas Mavericks like, whoa, what? Are you fucking kidding me kind of reaction to Cooper Flag going to the Mabs and all that? But there were some fun moments, some fun anecdotes. And a large sigh of relief from inside the drawing room when I was going around asking people, who do you think is the biggest winner tonight? I pulled everyone.

I pulled everyone outside in the big studio thing once we were released from the sequestered secret room. Who do you think is the biggest winner? I have my own opinion. The universal answer was something to the effect of we're all winners because Oklahoma City did not move up in the draft. Otherwise, we'd all be losers. And look who's here to help me analyze it. My fellow ESPN expat, Mr. Jonathan Gavoni, all things draft. My man, how are you?

I'm doing great, man. How are you? I'm hanging in there. I'm hanging in there. You were not in the secret room with us last. night, right? I've never done the secret room once. And this is actually the first time I skipped the lottery altogether.

They moved it to Navy Pier. And I said, man, I need to get my fix of the G-League Combine scrimmages. I'm worried I'm not going to get back in time. So I just, you know, I watched it on TV and I watched the G-League Combine. So we, that's sad, first of all, second of all. We had the- But it's on brand. You have to do it.

It is on brand. We had a sort of last hurrah for the tankers last night. in some cases, Sacramento and Brooklyn, I just want to send my condolences to all of your fans. It's just, it's a rough go for you guys in the lottery. But Washington egregiously tanks, they get the number one pick. Utah egregiously tanks, they get the number two pick. And then two sort of middle ground tankers,

a different species of tanker. The grizzlies and the bulls move up to three and four. And the irony of this is, I think we're like in year eight of the revised, semi-flattened lottery odds. And every time there would be a wild jump in this new system, like the Hawks had a 3% chance of getting Riesot, and they'd moved all the way up. Cooper Flagg, obviously Dallas had like a one point something percent chance. They move all the way up. We've seen teams with the very worst records pick fifth, you know, multiple times.

There was this immediate outcry of like, what have we wrought? We have benefited. It's so hard now for the worst teams that are getting punished and these mediocre teams are getting moved up. and just like, what have we done? It was so dumb and it was so reactive because what happened was, A, exactly the system that you had legislated in working as expected. And B, this lottery last night was a reminder that if you were just a little bit less reactive and let this system play out for 20, 30, 40 years, like an actual sample size, more often than not, we would get results like last night where the worst teams would do best in the lottery like Washington and Utah with some, you know, random movement here and there. It was like last night was a representative kind of lottery of this system that everybody

wanted because of the process and the egregious tanking, right? And they vote for it. And then some wild stuff happens and everyone's like, oh, my God, what have we done? And now all these years later, we're getting a system that's probably going to even be more random than this with like wildly flatter odds, three to one, a relegation zone and all that. So I just find it ironic that in the last year of this system, it works to reward the worst teams. It's just crazy how reactive everybody is.

And by the way, if the NBA passes this new system, this 3-2-1 system and wild outcomes happen in the first year, there's going to be the same like, oh, my God, what have we done? You did exactly this. This is what you did. But who was your biggest winner of the night other than 29 teams because Oklahoma City did not move up? It has to be the clippers.

I mean, the trade was insane. when it happened. And it's even more insane now, even though it was a coin flip, whether it was going to go Indiana's way or the Clippers way, 52-48. And, you know, it's such a bossy move on both sides. And, you know, you can't help but feel for the pacers, especially their fans, you know, going through the season that they did. And, but I mean, I understand like the strategy behind it because, you know, what we'll probably get into this more, there is absolutely. a drop off after four. And so the pastures probably said to themselves, you know, if we drop to five, six,

whatever, you know, we'd rather have a starting center locked in for $20 million a year in even so Zubats. That's our preference. But just as she had play out, the way that it did, the drama. I mean, that's, like you said, I mean, the lottery is the best day of the calendar. And you bring all these, you know, NBA executives. they're all millionaires. They're, you know, they've done, accomplished so much in their career.

They're so powerful. They've, you know, they've reached the top of the mountain to get to this point. And they're sitting in that room and they're so vulnerable. And they're literally their entire career in many ways hinges on which way this will go. I mean, the San Antonio Spurs will, there'll be the first ones, I'm sure to tell you. I mean, like, they don't get Victor, you know, what is, what does it look like? Now, all of a sudden, you know, they're all geniuses and they're, you know, they're so smart. And just one player changes the trajectory of your franchise in the NBA.

And so that's why, I mean, the lottery is insane. Every year, it just blows my mind. And I'm just really here to see how it plays out next year because it's going to be even crazier or trying to understand all the ramifications of what they're trying to pass. And, you know, the NBA is, it's absolutely insane from top to bottom. But the lottery is the top of those. So you just nailed why it's my favorite. favorite thing. The absurdist nature

of it, watching these genius highly accomplished people, top of their fields, just sit there and sweat and fret over a literally like an 80s newscast. Like, here, let's bring on the meteorologist to pull out the tonight's lottery balls.

So, and next year, by the way, we don't exactly know how it's going to be, but the proposal is this 3-2-1 system where instead of these, like, you know, now you get these four ping-pong. There's 14 ping-pong balls numbered one to 14. And teams are assigned four number combinations of those ping pong balls. There's a thousand combinations.

And so like two, three, four, one, eight, whatever that belongs to the wizards. And the wizards come up. Next year, there's only going to be, like, there's going to be, I think, 37 balls. And they're just going to be like team balls. Like, it's just going to have logos. Like the teams at the top of the lottery get three balls. The relegation zone teams and some other teams get two. The best, the best teams, quote unquote, get one.

And they don't exactly know how they're going to do it next year. A couple of rumblings I heard yesterday was they have definitely taken note of the NHL making like a really good television show out of the lottery drawing like with the odds in real time on a big screen. At the sphere. Yeah, I guess it was at the sphere. I don't know. They've definitely made note of that. And there's there's a world in which, you know, the plan is the proposal is to draw all 16 spots. And there's a world in which they actually draw from 16 to one in reverse order.

And the way that would work is process of a limit. One way it could work is process of elimination. So if you're one of the teams that has three balls and your ball comes up for the 16th pick, that doesn't mean you get the 16th pick. That means you have two balls left in the kitty. They draw again for the 16th pick. And the first team that has like one, that's their last ball, they get the 16th pick and you go from there. So it would be this kind of thrilling like, oh my God, we have one ball left. That ball.

Stay in their ball. We don't want you to come out. But anyway, we'll see what happens next year. you are correct that the clippers are indisputably i think the biggest other than the wizards i guess the clippers to come out with the highest possible pick that they could have gotten five and we you can tell me about you know how big the cliff is after four and the double win of not being embarrassed by having Oklahoma city move up with their pick i was sitting behind rsab desai who was the the clippers representative in the drawing room right literally right behind

him. His back was right in front of me. And the sigh of relief, like, it was, it was so visible, like, his shoulders went like, when the Chicago pick came up. And then the lottery's over. And so he stands up and he turns around. And he has this look on his face. Like, he looked like someone who had been, like, acquitted at trial facing life in prison. Just like he had a new lease on life.

And then he went over and he had a nice. handshake brohug with Ted Wu, the Pacers guy. And I was like, oh, that's such a nice moment of NBA harmony. You guys aren't fighting. You guys aren't mad at each other. But an unbelievable win for them. And a new lease on life, I guess, for the Clippers, assuming they get to keep that pick. Did you see the Clippers tweet updating the terms of the trade with the Pacers?

I did. Yeah. No, it's just a reason five billion why the NBA is the craziest league in the world. I'm just going to just say this. Every time I see the Clippers tweet, I just think back to when everyone was digging up the old aspiration tweets nine months ago. Like, if there's a year to maybe just not take the victory lap at the Pacers expense and like highlight in red that you're getting the number five pick,

maybe just maybe just take the win and don't and don't rub it in. But we also have to discuss Kevin Pritchard's tweet apologizing to Pacers fans. I thought that was like insane. I could not believe that he tweeted that, saying that he thought that he didn't think it would come up five. Like, dude, you made the trade. He was surprised. Yeah, you made the trade.

And it's like a justifiable trade. Abiza Zubats was a borderline all-NBA player two seasons ago. He's on a great contract. The bucks splurged on Miles Turner at a number that you, frankly, couldn't justify. And so you had to pivot somehow. And yeah, you did so hoping to tank this season and have your cake you needed to. and you didn't get the cake. But to sit there and tweet like, man, I'm just surprised.

I thought it would go the other way. You knew exactly what it was. It was 52, 48 you would get the pick and 48 came up. You can't be like, the lottery just makes people insane. Like it just makes people absolutely insane. Like last year, I remember people telling me, like Ryan Smith was, I mean, I don't want to say distraught, like he wasn't crying. I think he was more like angry that the jazz had not gotten the number one pick and it had moved

down. It's like, dude, the most likely outcome just happened and you're like raging at the basketball guys. It just makes people insane. I couldn't believe. It was more Dallas and everybody's saying it's rigged and all that I think is what it was. Maybe. But I couldn't believe that that tweet. And look, the Pacers like shit happens.

Now they keep their 2031 pick, which would have been unprotected to the clippers had they kept this pick, which makes it easier for them to make trades. Zoo's good. You just got to go build your team. You don't have a ton of flexibility. but you have some. Like you can get probably one more player with the mini mid-level exception or something like that.

I just thought that was a crazy moment. Did you see this stuff about the suit that Rassab from the Clippers wore to the drawing room? I did not see that. I actually was walking by the peninsula yesterday and they just happened to drive up the whole Clipper's staff. And they were like, our guy got it done. How about Rassab?

And he's like, yeah, I did it, guys. He executed. That's what I said. you executed in there you got the job done um so he was wearing a suit that they did the clippers like revere jerry west everybody that worked there reveres him so he was wearing a suit that jerry west had when when he saw rassab when rassab was younger went up to him this is what rossab told me and said i can't have you looking like shit at mbba games i'm going to have my tailor make some suits for you and this was the first one including the tie that the tailor had made

It took the, the Taylor came, I think, to Clippers Headquarters, took the measurements, made the suit. And then Jerry West had the Taylor make Rassab's wedding suit. And when the wedding suit was delivered, there was a surprise second suit. And so this is what he wore as a good luck charm to the thing. So that's just fun lottery stuff. Okay. Let's start with the results. Wizards, number one pick.

They have Anthony Davis and Tray Younger on the team. They have a whole pile of young. young players who are now going to have incredible competition. This is your world. The consensus seems to be DeBanza is the safest choice and the most likely choice at number one. The wizards, the scuttle butt was last night was, are legitimately like, we haven't decided yet.

We're going to take a look at it. What do you think happens here? I have Darren Peterson going one. And I was a little bit surprised, you know, how the consensus has shifted. I mean, I know that Darren Peterson didn't have the season that he wanted. but I've seen those guys on the same floor in person, probably eight to ten times, playing against each other, you know, in a lot of different settings over the years, dating back to the under-16, you know, USA basketball training camp.

And not once did I come away thinking Asia DeBanza is a better prospect than Darren Peterson, including when they played each other this year, which is, you know, Darren Peterson had an absolutely insane first half. I mean, it was one of his best performances. And DeBanza had, you know, a kind of a DeBanza game where a lot of dribbles, a lot of tough shots, made some tough shots, you know, incredible intensity and, you know, will and aggressiveness and the scoring instincts. And ancient DeBonse is a great prospect. And I have a pretty good film that he's going to be an all-star. Darren Peterson is on another level, talent-wise. And I don't know if, you know, people watch.

I think once they go back and go through the film and they played each other three times last year. And Darren Peterson was head and shoulders better than AJ DeBanza every single time. Now, you know, the creatine stuff and the cramping and, you know, Darren Peterson did not have the same gear that we saw in high school. We didn't have the same Twitch. It wasn't quite as explosive, blowing by people, getting to the rim, finishing. they moved them off the ball, strangely.

He was playing next to Melbourne Council, who is, you know, we've kind of seen him now in the NBA, the G-League Combine, Portsman. Melvin Council is a very average player. I think that we're going to look back in five years and wonder how the hell did Darren Peterson not, you know, have the year. I mean, I get it.

physically all that. He wasn't there. Darren Peterson is an all-N-B-A player. He's an incredible talent. And I don't care. You have Trey Young. whatever, like you, I think you take the talent in this, in this draft, and Darren Peterson is the talent. I think he, he's, he should go number one. I don't know what they're going to do.

I haven't spoken with them, whatever. But, you know, knowing Will Dawkins and, you know, they're going to, like you said, they're going to look at this really hard. And maybe they do go to Bonza just because he's safer. He had, you know, such a great year. He's an All-American, all of that. I would absolutely go with Darren Peterson. Well, what makes that interesting is that, of course, Utah eating like the five hundred thousand dollar fines and just what they're like oh find us more where we get the number two picking the draft obviously they know debanza very well uh he went to b yu ryan smith is a big booster b yu he was in high school i think for a utah prep yeah he was for at least a year and so there was

this immediate like oh my god would the jazz make like a godfather offer to the wizards to move up one spot in the draft and guarantee that debanza is there my very early sense from talking to people around the league last night all over the league was like i don't think utah's going to operate like that i don't think they're going to be reckless just to get that guy in the door if he falls to them great if if they really want him and they're and they're getting just held hostage it's a tough decision i my my i mean it's it's very early but they they did not seem to me like oh we're desperate to go get this good not that they're going to seem like that anyway but i think they're just going to be happy to take who's ever there the other thing with utah is carlos booser works for the jazz in the front office

and Cam Boozer is going to be in conversation for, you know, a top three, top four pick. That's another fun little variable. But I get the sense that like, look, obviously both of these teams will listen to everything that comes to them, including, you know, there was like I just randomly like Utah obviously made a big win now move last season or win semi later move, I guess, by trading for Jared Jackson Jr. Kiante George is like a rising perhaps all-star guard, Mark and is an all-star. they got to figure out Walker Kessler. They want to re-sign him for sure. You could make the argument that Utah is a strong trade down, trade down a little bit in the lottery,

get another veteran player in the door, because I do think they want to get one more decent rotation guy. They could just get that with the mid-level instead of doing any trade-down kind of stuff. My guess is they just stick it to and pick who's ever there and are thrilled with it. But what do you think? Yeah, I can't see anybody trading out of the top three. I think the trades in the top 10 are going to be unlikely to happen unless it's like jockeying, moving down two spots from seven to five, something like, you know, but I think we'd be doing the service by not mention the fact that Camboozer is every bit a number one pick candidate. And there are a lot of people around the NBA, especially, you know, those that build the team of draft models that have Camboosier number one.

he has been the most productive player by far every step of the way he's been the winning his player every step of the way what he does is going to translate to the NBA I think he's going to be an all-star and so there are a lot of teams that there are a lot of not teams I would say NBA executives that I really respect and have Camboosur number one on their draft board and I would expect the wizards to give Camboosur a really hard look as well as it know the jazz I mean they're so stacked with bigs, like you said, but you don't draft for need when you're drafting two. You don't know when an opportunity like that is going to come around. And next year's draft and the year after is not looking good whatsoever. So you go for the talent. And Darren Peterson

and Asia DeBonds are talents. But Cam Bozer is a heck of an NBA prospect. And he's, I mean, he'd be my favorite to be rookie of the year next year. Then we get to Memphis, who moves up to number three. And sort of the immediate scuttle butt question. gossip was what does this mean for John Morant? Does this make them more likely, less likely? They get a great prospect in the door, new lottery odds coming that don't really make it profitable to be terrible. In fact, make it unprofitable to be terrible to be one of the three worst teams and get

relegated. Would they just sort of keep Moran and try to have some fun and be frisky? I think it actually probably doesn't change their course at all. I think they're still likely to trade John Morant. If anything, I think it may make them more likely to trade John Morant. John Morant because you look at a team like Sacramento who plummets all the way to seventh, doesn't want to be in that relegation zone next year. Brooklyn, I don't really see the fit, but Brooklyn's an interesting case we'll talk about.

I think they're actually going to are slightly more likely to trade John Morant. And I sense like some optimism that it won't be like an awful value trade for them. Chicago moves up to four. Huge win for the Bulls who are bracing for a big, big summer under Bryson Graham as the new GM. And just hovering over all of this top four discussion. And you have said to me already, like, you don't think anyone should trade out of the top four. Or we'll trade out of the top four. It's so good.

But there is this, you know, last week on Bill's pod, he sort of posited this like, at some point, Oklahoma City, who I think is 12th in this draft, is going to have to consolidate players and picks because they just have too many players who are going to get too expensive and too many picks. They can't even roster all their picks. would this be the year with this kind of top four where Oklahoma City just goes to the Bulls or the Grizzlies and says A.J. Mitchell plus rotation player X plus number 12 plus three future first round picks to get into the top four. And one GM told me last night talking about this like there is a point at which you just can't say no where they just put so much in the kitty that you have to consider saying yes. I have no idea what Oklahoma City is going to do. I haven't talked to anybody there about their plans. They are notoriously tight-lipped about it. But I will say teams toward the top of the draft are expecting those kind of calls,

whether they come or not. What do you think will and should happen there? Yeah, I mean, they need to consolidate. I mean, they have so many picks coming down the pipeline. Like I said, the next two drafts are not considered to be very strong, especially at the top. That's key, right? The future picks, like the people who are looking at the 20, 28 draft, 2029 draft.

Like this is what you have to be looking at when you make a decision like this. 100%. And so, I mean, this is a really bad high school class that's, you know, coming to be freshman now. And a lot of players, you know, there's not a whole lot. And then the five for five rule is coming in in the NCAA. So a lot of these players are going to get an extra year of eligibility. So the guys that you thought were going to be seniors next year actually can say now two more

years. And so what is next year's draft even going to look like? It's a major question mark in terms and there's not a great crop of international players too. So I, if you're Oklahoma City, you're probably looking at all that and saying, you know, yeah, let's consolidate. Let's just put a boatload of picks and move up. And, you know, I mean, AJ Mitchell, he's such a great contract that, you know, maybe you trade one of their bigger deals, you know, like instead, because you want to think about the cap and the tax and all that. So everybody knows that at the same time. And so I just think it's hard to do deals.

I mean, it's just the fans. I mean, they get attached to the top five ownership and the front office. You fall in love with the pick and the idea of what this player is going to become. And nobody wants to hear about, you know, a 2028 first rounder right now. Like if you just went through a season of misery as a fan of, you know, the Utah Jazz or whatever. and I mean, you know, they're trying to win. I mean, they want to get out of this purgatory at some point. And so, yeah, I think it's just going to be, it's going to be hard.

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, they have other levers to pull, right? Like, they have the Dort contract. They have the Hartenstein contract. But, like, Hartenstein in particular feels pretty essential to their team right now. His offensive rebounding is passing the floater that feels automatic again. Dort, you know, he's the biggest and stoutest of their just army of defensive players, is like the best guy on LeBron that they have,

although Caruso has looked pretty good on him. And he's, as you mentioned, like a hometown beloved sort of homegrown favorite in Oklahoma City. Also, there's 7 and O in the playoffs and just pantsing everybody left and right in all these games. Like every one of the Lakers games is exactly the same. It's close and then it's a 25 point game. You're like, what the fuck just happened? And by the way, I just, as an aside, I hate this burgeoning thing that's happening where in a couple of playoffs, games, including game two when SGA was in foul trouble, and they win the non-SGA

minutes. And again, play pretty well with SGA on the bench in a game three blowout. And Isaiah Joe goes crazy. A.J. Mitchell has a star kind of game. Chet looks great. It becomes a referendum on like SGA's MVP case. Like, well, the team was so good around him that why did we all get this wrong? First of all, it's like it's two games.

I think that's a pretty banal argument. and the 82 game sample size, which is what actually applies here, of all these guys missed lots of games, including Jalen Williams, missed lots of games. And the number is just like they just didn't have a good offense with SGA on the floor. And they were a regular team with SGA off the floor and a crazy elite team with SGA on the floor. I just think it's a little crazy that this becomes an MVP referendum, but that's neither here, neither here nor there.

Chicago, I'm really excited for the Bulls. I'm a little worried that their fans are getting too excited and are setting themselves up for disappointment again because we've seen the Bulls like roll over the front office once or twice and it hasn't changed anything. But just home run outcome for them moving up to four. They were ecstatic last night. If I were them, I'm just keeping the pick getting another great young player in the door. Do you have Caleb Wilson penciled in there? Is that the guy? I do.

Yeah, 100%. Caleb Wilson is a Bryson-Grim type of guy. size, length, athleticism, defensive versatility. I mean, he's, he had a phenomenal season at North Carolina up until getting injured. He's getting better and better. And so super high character. I mean, Caleb Wilson is an easy guy at Pennsworth. I mean, he has fans in the top three also.

For sure. There are people who like Caleb Wilson quite a bit. And so we talk about it, the three-player draft, but Caleb Wilson is a hell of a consolation prize. at four, if that's where he ends up. I mean, who knows? I mean, Memphis. I mean, like, there's always a shock that, a shocker that happens on draft night.

And, like, if Caleb Wilson goes three or one, who, like, it wouldn't, like, blow my mind. And so there are people who really, really like Caleb Wilson out there. And he could be like a Washington Ted guy. So maybe there is some jockeying that happens at the top. And somebody slides down a spot. You know, I can see maybe that kind of movement happening, just to position yourself and get an extra pick or whatever.

And so, yeah, I mean, Kevin Wilson is big time. Do you think Peyton Watson is a Bryson Graham type of player? Because that's it, you know, Peyton Watson, who I think the Nuggets really want to retain, they'll have to do some financial gymnastics and get off a contract to do it, unless the Kronkies want to do the unthinkable and pay a big luxury tax bill again. He's been linked to the Lakers more than anyone. The Lakers have, like, quietly kind of a lot of decisions to make with Reeves, Machamura just hasn't missed a shot.

It feels like in a month he's a free agent. LeBron, obviously, like it can get pretty expensive. They're pretty fast. It's not like they have guaranteed $30 million of cap money to throw at Peyton Watson. But Chicago's another, with a ton of cap room, is another name I've heard for Peyton Watson. I think he'd be a great fit there personally. Like, just like they already have kind of a lead ball handler and giddy who you don't want to hand the entire offense to. So Peyton Watson can do some of the stuff he showed when Yokic and half the nuggets were hurt.

and he went crazy. Defense, they need tenacity, defense, all that. I kind of like that idea for them. I like it, too. I'm curious to see, like, how much of a Matas Buzzoas guy is Bryson Graham? You know, like, do you go in, all in on building around him? I mean, there's, you know, there's a wide scope of opinions about Matas. I mean, I think he's had a really promising first few years here in the NBA,

but, you know, is he ready to take that next step? And, you know, that's, that's going to be interesting to shoot. Like, how do they, how do they look at him? We should talk more about the Wizards. What a night for the Wizards. I haven't yet listened to Joe House going bananas on Bill's podcast last night. I saw a clip of it. It was delightful.

John Wall just clutch performance on the dais. Totally nonchalant reaction to it at the end. But they've got, like, you know, obviously Davis and Young, but it's a big year now for, like, is Bob Carrington going to be? be anything for them is is belal kulabali what kind of player is he going to be i like will riley i had him uh off and on my second team all rookie um they have a lot of interesting pieces there sara jack they're high they're high on kishan geishan george is really good he should he has ascended past like kulabali is sort of part of like the rotational core and saar is is good i i hated

the way sar played the tanky part of the season i thought they just let him do whatever he wanted and i didn't like watching it but i think he's pretty good but the whole thing was they have a bunch of young guys and they haven't found the guy yet. And now they have a chance to get the guy. I mean, this is like the biggest thing that's happened to Washington Wizards basketball. I think this is bigger than the wall lottery win in terms of just based on what they already have there. Like, there's actually a roadmap for this team to be interesting.

And all it took was a couple of years of unabashed tanking and one big year of lottery look. Yeah, you'd love to see a plan work out, you know, if you're their fans. And, you know, they're on their way now. Like there's a clear direction here. You've got some great young pieces, like you said. They have two, you know, like multi-time all-stars that I'm not sure what the future holds for them. But, you know, it makes sense what they did with, you know, buying low as low as possible as you could get on noise too. You know, do you rehab them now and, you know, and get back on the right path and then move them again for, you know, from they got them for so little.

I mean, it's unbelievable, actually, like, how little they have to give up to get those two guys considering their resumes. And so, yeah, I mean, they're pretty stacked. And, I mean, whether it's DeBonza or Peterson, I mean, both of those guys are super exciting. And so, yeah, it's a good time to be a Washington Wizards fan. A couple of other notes. I don't really see much impact on, like, the potential Janus and or less likely Jalen Brown trade landscape from last night. No one moved up or moved down. Like Atlanta stuck at eight, Miami stuck at 13.

No golden chip trade piece from a Yannis team really emerged. I do think it's much more likely than not that Yannis gets traded in the offseason. Who knows? That's just my opinion based on what I've heard. The Jalen Brown thing, I don't know. I think the Celtics will listen. No one, like people around the league don't really know what's going to happen there. But I don't know.

Did you see anything sort of like impacting the very top of. the top of the conversation. I think Atlanta, I actually think if Atlanta had moved up into the top four with the Pelicans pick, I think it would have actually, if I'm, if I'm on C. Saleh at their GM,

it makes me less likely to trade for Janus because I just want, okay, now I'm just building up with this young core. I get a gem in the draft. Picking at eight, I just don't think it's going to be enticing enough for Milwaukee.

I don't think Atlanta wants to do it anyway. So I think we're just going to be looking at the usual suspects, I guess. I mean, I live in New York City, so right away, my thoughts went to Brooklyn and, you know, like, them dropping for a second time now. And, you know, what is the direction there? Like, is there pressure on the front office to try and win now? But, like, do they have the pieces for it? No. What do they do with, you know, Michael Porter Jr.? What do they do with, you know, all these point cards that they drafted last year? And because when you're sitting at six, I mean, you're looking at a bunch of little guards, really.

You're looking at Akoff. You're looking at Kingston Fleming. You're looking at Keaton Wagler. You're looking at Mikhail Brown. Or do you go and take Natamed, you know, who is 610 wing, you know, incredible upside. He's fluid. And, you know, he can make shots from all over the floor. But it's going to take him some time, you know, strength wise and all that. But do they have time? And so I think a lot of those. teams in that five to ten range, that's where it's going to be really interesting to see how it plays out. Does one of them go reach for Yax-Lendiburg, you know, who is, you know, he's older than some guys that played in their freaking All-Star game. But he was also the second best player in college basketball after Camboosur. And so how do you view him, you know, and it's, I mean, this is

where I kind of disagree with people who say it's a historic draft and like the depth of the draft and all that. And I don't, I'm not seeing that, to be honest with you. I mean, after five, I think it's quite a normal draft. And after like, you know, 18, I mean, it could drop off a cliff if, I mean, there were like 10 guys. And, you know, like in that 18 to 32 range who could pull their name out of the draft and go back to school.

And then you're looking at guys who are like in our 40s, so we might have to get picked in the 20s. And NIL has really done a number on the NBA draft year the last two years. and a lot of people are talking about like, how do we compete? You know, like with this, like it used to be like the value was in in the first round, in the late first. You hit on a guy and he's in your rotation and it's a cheap contract. It's a great asset.

It's how you dodge the tax and maneuver yourself. But now it's like, well, if there's not a player there in the 20s and how do you actually even view all these picks? All these teams have been hoarding these picks for years and years and years and, you know, people raked, you know, Tim Conley over the coals for, you know, for trading all these picks in the 20s for Rudy Goldberg. Now he looks like a genius, honestly. I'm glad you brought that up because I've been meaning to mention this.

The Goldberg trade worked. Like, I thought it was an overpay. I was astonished at how many picks it took to get him. I think the jazz were frankly astonished at how many picks they got in return for him. it's indisputably worked. Like I think everybody host Tim Connolly and Rudy Gober and apology. That trade worked and we'll see what happens in the... This is where you want to be right now is, you know, competing for a spot in the Western Conference Finals.

They made it, you know, like two years in a row. I mean, it's all, I mean, this is what we should be rewarding, you know, like as the NBA media, NBA fans, like, this guy went for it. You know, like, how about trying to win? You know, how about that for a second? To your point, here's what I don't want to have happen next year. So this lottery unfolds in a way that's pretty friendly to the tank teams, right? Overall, and you mentioned the Nets. I want to get back to the Nets in a second as a tank team that did not have a friendly outcome last night.

And so tanking was largely rewarded for one final time under a system that, again, if you let it play out for 30, 40 years, would more or less, reward the worst teams more than the mediocre teams over overtime. People didn't want to give it years. They reacted viscerally to outcomes that seemed unfair to the worst teams. And you already are seeing this sort of like, as the NBA proposes, this new, like, flatter, more random lottery system. The same kind of pushback that happened when they first tried to flatten the lottery odds to this system, which is, well, isn't the draft supposed to help the worst teams?

Isn't the draft supposed to represent hope for fan bases of bad teams? It's a rebuilding tool. Is it more helpful for small markets who don't get free agents and free agency doesn't exist anymore? You're already seeing that. And so here's what I'm going to say. Next year, if they pass this, the lottery will be more random and less friendly to the worst teams.

When that happens, I don't want to hear any whining from any of the teams that vote for this about how oh my god what have we done someone with the 12th best record just got the number one pick of the draft and the worst teams are picking here it's exactly what you're voting on you can't in the same breath say tanking is this egregious scourge on the league that ruins a third of the season for a third of the teams but also oh my god we're appalled that amid a 40 win team got the number one pick you have to accept some cost to eliminate some problem there's not going to be a perfect solution. And I think the NBA has reached a moment where tanking got so bad. Now, maybe you're right that the next drafts are not so great that tanking would ever get like

this, but that tanking got so bad that it became a bigger and more dire problem than a more randomized draft order, which by the way, will still in the aggregate favor bad teams over good teams. It's not like you're giving the NBA champion an equal chance at the first pick or anything like that. But there is going to be more randomness. And I just don't want to see this sort of reactiveness from the NBA team community of like, oh my God, what happened? Orlando got the number one pick? Like, that's going to happen. There's also a lot of frozen balls jokes already going around the lottery room out next year

because the balls are team by team. They're going to have logos on. They're going to look nice as they're going to be a frozen ball. But that's what's going to happen. And I think, I don't know how you feel it is, the draft is designed to help bad teams get better to help them get a roadmap out of purgatory. I think the NBA is right at this moment to say, let's see what, let's just see what a league looks like where we chip away at that a little bit

and see what the benefits are on the other end in terms of competition. Will some teams have a harder time digging out of holes? Maybe. We've already seen teams not able to dig out of holes, even in this lottery system and the one that came before it because of mismanagement, bad decisions, bad luck in the lottery, etc. So we'll see what happens. But I think it's time to try something different.

I think so, too. I just think they're thinking about the product. And if you look at a third of the league, you know, actively trying to lose, shutting down players, it just, it really hurts the product for, you know, half a season. And they're thinking about the next TV deal. And they're thinking about all this competition, you know, like from all over, you know, from e-sports and, you know, the NFL and social media. And like what is like what are our kids even going to be watching, you know, when the next TV deal is up? And and so from that standpoint, I understand because like I've taken my kids to games in, in March and April. I'm like, it's a bad product.

Like they fall asleep watching it. And the games are too long. There's too many games. And I think that like you look at like college basketball, like it's honestly like it's catching up in terms of like the level of play. So many guys are staying. the games are so competitive and, you know, and you watch like your early games. Like that's a great product. And so they have to figure out a way how to make the product.

Now the playoffs are unbelievable. Like I watch every game and I'm just like, I'm mesmerized by the level of talent and skill and physicality and intensity. It's incredible. And so I think that is the concern. And I understand it because like who wants to watch these games, you know, like, Washington against Brooklyn in March and April like it's awful. Who wants to buy a ticket for that?

And so that's what they needed to try something because this year was really. Well, and also like first of all, the Washington and Brooklyn kind of games are now going to be actually competitive because those teams are going to be fighting to get out of the relegation zone. The other bad teams are going to be fighting to keep those bad teams in the relegation zone. So everyone has, there's incentives to win, not just incentives not to lose. I don't think it's going to be a perfect system. People are worried about, oh, our team's going to tank out of the play in to get into the lottery and have a better shot than our one pick.

I mean, I'll believe that when I see it. To me, that's an observational cost worth having. Let's see what happens when competency is more rewarded than it is now. And also, there are ways, if this does actually chip away at a team's ability to dig out of a hole, there are ways to alter other parts of the system. I've mentioned this over and over again. Like make cap room more valuable by eliminating restricted free agency, by allowing teams to use it in different ways. So if you're a bad team and you have cap room and the lottery doesn't help you, you can go try to get younger free agents. You can roll over cap space from previous seasons.

There's like a lot of things you can do. And this is not going to be a permanent solution. It's going to be tweaked. And it's going to be tweaked. And it's going to be tweaked. But I'm ready for, I'm ready to see how it operates. Jonathan Gavoni, you're the best. where should we be following you right now?

And we're going to have to have you back on as the draft approaches in six weeks, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I'm covering the draft pretty much exclusively on X and on Instagram and on TikTok at Draft Express. I mean, that's my outlet. I mean, 95% of my time and energy is going to my private business, you know, with the clients, MBA, college, international. And I've got, you know, six trips to your plan in the next three months. to Europe and Mexico and all over the place. And so it's been an awesome year. And there is life after ESPN, as you're aware.

And it's a great time to be a basketball fan. You're the best. You know this draft and all drafts better than anybody. Thanks for letting us some expertise. We'll have you on again. And now let's welcome in Fred Katz. We'll talk about the New York Knickerbockers. Holy smokes.

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Wayfair, every style, every home. All right, let's wrap this up. Fred Katz is here. The New York Knickerbockers, the Knicks of New York City, of Eddie Curry and Isaiah Thomas and Zach Randolph and Chris Childs. The New York Knicks are in the conference finals again after absolutely obliterating the Philadelphia. of 76ers in a sweep. The Knicks for the entire playoffs are now plus 20 per 100 possessions, plus 194 total points, aka about 20 a game. And I remember shortly before the playoffs, I think you might have been my guest.

I was talking about the Knicks and how they were my favorite NBA mystery because they would get into a state. We've all had experiences like this, whether it's in sports, in writing, in just any part of life where you get into a zone where things just feel right. And you can't explain why they feel right. You can't explain how you got there, what changed. And then you lose it.

And you can't explain really why you lost it or what happened. And that was the experience of the Knicks for me. I compared it to when you have like a trivia answer on the tip of your tongue and you know it and you know it and you know it, but you can't quite get the final answer out there or a word or something like that. You're almost all the way there, but you can't quite get there.

The Knicks would sometimes get there, and then they would slip back and not get there. They're there now. This is a team that is whatever zone they need to get in. They have found it. They are in it. They are going to be favorites in the next round. I know Detroit was 3-0 against the Knicks

and beat the hell out of them, even with Detroit missing Jalen Dern for two games, Isaiah Stewart for a game on and on. They're going to be favorites next round, I think, anyway, no matter who they play. they're going to be favorites to make the finals and and accomplish James Dolan's mandate and Mike Brown's mandate. You know, you just hope that they're going to have a little bit of a layoff now,

that whatever they've done, whatever ephemeral thing that they found, Fred Katz, they don't lose it because they've found it now. I have some theories about what's changed, but I want to, first of all, I want to put it, ask you this. Was the atmosphere in Philadelphia for game four as insanely weird as it seemed on television? It was like nothing I have ever experienced, to be honest. You know, it's one thing, you know, game, game three was a lot of Knicks fans. And the Knicks fans might have been louder, but I think it was because the Knicks were

winning. And it was probably about 50-50. But I did a lap around the concourse at halftime of game four. I think it was like 80, 20. Like it was just all Knicks fans. And I'm sure there were a lot of Sixers fans who saw them lose game three and fall down 3-0 and think, I don't need to see this. I don't need to see this in person.

I don't need to be there for whatever the heck is going to happen in Game 4. And Game 4 was like a terrible spot for the Sixers to begin with. Even at the beginning of the series, I was like, look, we don't, we can't tell the future. We don't know what's going to happen in a series. But the one thing I am incredibly confident in, it's that the Sixers are going to lose game four because starting a playoff game 42 hours after you just ended the previous one is not a great recipe for success with that team with that shorter rotation and with you all and beat and you mean you mean game one game four so game four was a 330 start oh i see i see

in game three yes in game three was a seven o'clock start two days before and i'm like they're starting an afternoon game a day later i'm like this is not going to go well and now they're down 3-0 and it's just like I think I think people just punted on the tickets they must have it was crazy I've never I've seen Knicks Phillip arenas and be loud and all that kind of stuff but I've never seen it just be like

all Knicks fans in a road arena for a playoff game I've never seen that it was wild The Josh Hart tweet after the game or it was not a tweet it was I think it was it was a comment he made or it was a comment it was a comment where he said I thought Philly was a sports town maybe it's not something like that I mean that is that's kicking dirt

that's twisting the knife whatever metaphor you want to use that's josh hart being very very mean but look i mean it was it was crazy it felt like a road game for the sixers at least that's how it seemed on tv um all right so i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna do my best my best theory is on like why do the nicks feel like they've found the vibe okay theory number one mckell bridges is back and it's not just that he's scoring it's that he's that he's looking to score. So he like drove at Kelly Ubre at the beginning of yesterday's game and like had a little pivoty up and under kind of layup. He drove at Joelle M.B. And I can't remember if he drew a foul or he kicked out to a corner three. He had maxi on him in transition and he sealed deep in the paint and drew a foul,

which is something he used to do in Phoenix quite a bit. He's hunting like relocation threes and cuts. And he had one transition basket where he actually flexed like Skinny McHale Bridges gave you like a flex. And I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if he had to hit Rock Bottom in the Atlanta series to come out the other end. I don't know if the Villanova guys lifted him up and just said play. I don't know if Mike Brown saying, hey, I'm not going to bring you off the bench. I'm just going to keep starting you. Keep guarding Tyrese Maxie, let your defense for your offense.

But step one is this is a completely different player than the player who started the playoffs against Atlanta. And thing number two is foul trouble aside, this is the Carl Anthony. Towns that you want to see. Offensively, we know what he can do. It's not a shock that he's passing like this. Like, he's always been a good passer, particularly when he stopped trying to be too tricky with it. The shooting is the shooting.

I thought Mike Brown's game plan in this series was pretty flawless right from the jump. And the centerpiece of it was, if you're gifting us, Joelle Embed on Carl Anthony Towns and you're going to be maybe too slow or too reluctant to put him anywhere else, we're just going to milk that for all it's worth. and we're going to make Joel and Bede's life absolutely miserable and wear him down to the point that between that and the ankle and the adductor and all the stuff that happened at the beginning of the series that crippled him. He was just a shade of himself defensively and on the glass.

But it's not just that. It's, and you wrote about this at the end of the last season, all I want from cat defensively is a try, check, and B, do the thing that you are supposed to do. So when these two players run a pick and roll, this is your job. You have to understand that it's your job because the other four players on the team are going to behave based on you doing that job. And if you do something else or you don't execute it, we're all going to fuck up because we're expecting you to do the thing. He's never going to be a great defensive player. I think he's actually been quite good in the playoffs. But he's doing that.

Like whatever his job is, he's doing it and he's doing it well enough. To me, we can boil it down to other things. but those are the two biggest changes is Bridges and Cat. I agree completely. Cat defensively has, I would say he's been like quite good defensively. Not like good for Kat, not good for his reputation. I just think he's been good defensively. Agree.

On the offensive end, I don't know. You say you've, Cat has always been a good passer. No question. But since game three, when they, game four of the Atlanta series, when Mike Brown kind of went back and was like, you know what, we're going to change the way we run the offense and go back to a lot of the stuff that they were running in the early parts of the year with you wrote a great piece on this for the athletic by the way right after that game about all the flex cuts and the screening and the off ball stuff that was just

murdering the hawks it it killed them it killed them and and they didn't run like that play with the flex screen like they they didn't run that play they ran at one time in early march against san antonio and maybe like a couple of times in january but they other than that They threw that play in the garbage in November. And to me, I thought that that sort of action was this sort of thing that it was representative of what they were trying to do early in the season and then got away from with not just involving Kat. Everybody talks about Kat's shot attempts, but it's really about Kat's involvement.

It's not actually about the shot attempts. And they re-involved him in this sort of way, starting with Game 4 of Atlanta, where Kat is now of a sudden in the pinch post, but not just that. like he's facilitating from the low post he's being involved in picking the low post you say the low post sounds i mean he's facilitating from the zach low show that's got that's got that's got a ring to it i wonder i've heard that before the low post it could it could be a podcast yeah could be table it just it actually can't be right now fred but that's a different story well it could be if you get that feed probably somehow acquire that fee let's let's move let's move on fred so so

So Kat, his involvement has been totally different. So since game four against Atlanta, his shots are actually way down. He's only taking double-digit shots two times. Took 10 shots in one game. Now, the endless foul trouble is part of that. But not maybe not even half of it, though. As are the blowouts. Like he hasn't played in a bunch of fourth quarters.

I mean, he's only playing 26 minutes a game during the stretch. But even so, you look, it's like six, seven, eight shots every night. But the touches are through the roof. So he averaged 83 touches per 100 possessions during the regular season. And against Philly, he averaged 103 per 100. Since game four of the Atlanta series, he's averaging 98 touches per 100. That's a significant jump. I mean, that's what you see from like lead ball handling point guard who's like a,

who's like, that's what you see from like, you know, Cade Cunningham, who's just like give the ball to Cade and let him go at it. Kat has been on another level, I think, just in terms of getting them into their sets and facilitating from there. He hasn't had fewer than six assists in any game. He's having eight assists in those 26 minutes. He made some passes in game four

where I was like, when he had 10 assists in 20 minutes. The touch pass to Josh Hart under the rim was just a masterpiece. It's unbelievable. And he had this other one, which didn't turn into assist because I think it was McBride, missed the shot. Who would have thought McBride missed a shot?

But Cat, Cat drove left and had this unbelievable sort of spinning behind that. Oh, that's right. Over the head. Yeah, to the corner. And I was like, it was right on target. Like people talk so much about the vision that it takes to be able to do that kind of stuff. But his precision, like every pass is into the shooting pocket. It's he's looked like a quarterback in a lot of ways. He had one in the Atlanta series where he just took in, he took an, he took an in bounds and it was a side sideline out of bounds play and he ends up taking the ball from the

ref and Josh Hart was in the corner 70 feet down the court and Kat wound up like he was like you know throwing off his back foot after making a backhand play at third base and through this 100 mile an hour bullet to Hart who got a layup out of it and it just showed what a zone he was in at that point because before that play he went up to heart and was like I'm going to make this pass and Josh Hart said to him, oh, no, don't do that. Like, do not do that. That's not a good idea. And Katz, like, I'm doing it anyway.

And he went out and he did it. And it was, I think the best pass he's made the whole playoff run. It was extraordinary with the, I mean, he just looked like he was throwing to a guy in an in route on like a seven, you know, on this unbelievable tight window where he's threading the needle. He's, he's just been in such a groove in terms of his passing. And it's not just the schemes. that Mike Brown shook up, there's something with his mentality, with his approach, where I feel like

he's almost caught something from himself, where he's like, I'm going to keep this thing rolling and rolling and rolling. Well, he's every team that makes a deep run and finds a better version of itself is going to have a collection of very good to great players who have all at one point been number one or number two options on their team, including Kat. And every player in that circumstance or lots of them has to be a lot of them has to be a lot of to have this realization and they almost have to go through the process themselves like Aaron Gordon to me is the is the absolute textbook example of this and Katz a completely

different player than Aaron Gordon. I realize more accomplished, better offensively, all that where you just have to like you learn it by having it happen to you where like, oh, if we win, I'm going to get all of the credit and all the accolades and all the money that I thought I had to score 30 points a game to get. Because that's what my whole life has been. We've seen tons of players go through this. I mean, Chris Bosch is a great example of it, too.

That's an obvious one. But it's not just the sweet shooting big men. It's different kinds of players. I mean, I go all the way back to on a much lower level, the one year the Hawks went really far in the playoffs. John Collins accessed a completely different style of his game than he had ever had. He was like grinding on defense, getting rebounds, and everyone was giving him love. And Kat has probably realized on some level, like, if we win, everything takes care of

itself and he's become a completely different player in this series the consistent guys i mean brunson is like a metronome he some games he'll miss a little bit more some games will make a little bit more he's just gillan brunson over and over heart has been awesome the entire playoffs and just so handsy on defense pushing the pace on offense doing josh hart stuff uh i think mitchell robinson has been fantastic when he's played i think they could actually play him with cat more because cat defensively has been able to guard your kelly ubrae's jillan johnson's whatever But I think Mitchell Robinson, when he's been in, has been tremendous. Everyone that they've thrown in off the bench has been productive.

Alvarado, Shamet gets in the last two games with the Ananoi injured and just plays his ass off, including guarding Maxi. Clarkson, another guy who's score, score, score, all of a sudden he's throwing better passes, playing better defense. Like, everyone has contributed, but to me, it's Bridges and Kat that have kind of changed the vibe of the team. And look, whoever comes out of the east is going to be. an underdog in the finals, whether it's Oklahoma City or San Antonio, maybe not if it's Minnesota given their injury issues.

And we can't count out Minnesota. And I think the Knicks are the best team in the East. We'll see how the conference finals goes. But this Knicks team playing like this, and obviously the competition is going to skyrocket from an Atlanta team who laid down and died in a game that I still can't even believe happened in real life. And a Sixers team who, what a, what a couple of weeks for the Sixers? their fans get to enjoy the version of this team that they dreamed of and imagined.

It happens. They eliminate the hated Boston Celtics, the bane of their existence. They get to the next round and Embed gets hurt again a bunch of different ways on his body and wears down in a flat-footed shell of himself on defense. It was 8 of 8 in the last game. Like you can't hate on that, 20 whatever points on 8 of 8. and they just get rolled out of the gym while Jared McCain shows out in Oklahoma City Lakers again.

But I think the Knicks, if they make the finals, yeah, they'll be underdogs against Thunder Spurs. Like they've already played the Spurs pretty well. The NBA is funny, man. You get into a series and on paper it looks like this. You have one matchup advantage that you discover in game two. One schematic thing you did. And like it's like the Thunder almost lost the finals last year.

I think the Knicks can win the championship. Yeah. And I'm going to add one more name, which probably wasn't top of mind for you just because he didn't play in games three or four. But O.G. and Noby on this. Well, my, a lot of people are saying, Fred, I'm not saying it. There's a lot, there's a lot of buzz that ever since his cameo with me and your friends and neighbors, a lot of things have changed for Ogen and O'G and Nobie. And they're just people are saying, I'm not, I don't know who they are, but people are saying. It's a good point.

I did, I did really appreciate that in that cameo. OG showed the exact public persona that he wants out there completely. Just a very mild thank you. And that's it. So let me. So we shot that scene. I'm going to say 50 times from different angles. Sometimes we weren't even talking.

They just had to shoot us mimicking the motion while they shot other things. His delivery was the same every single time. It was super fun to hang out with him. I'm not going to get into what we talked about. But let's just say like he follows the NBA extremely close. and had a lot of questions and a lot of takes about stuff. And it was so funny, all the co-stars of the show, all the friends and neighbors, John Ham was not there that day.

Olivia Munn and Amanda Pete, I was like afraid to talk to. And it was like, I don't think I'm allowed to interact with those people. But all the supporting characters were so wonderful. And they were like starstruck at Annanobi. And to the point where he went, he went to the bathroom at one point. We're all in the green room. And I can't remember which supporting character it was, supporting actress. It was like, I really.

want to get a photo with him because I'm a huge Knicks fan and so is my daughter. I'm like, I'm kind of nervous to ask him. I'm like, you're an actress. Just go ask OJ. So I went and he came out. I was like, oh, gee, this guy wants to take a photo with you. And he, but anyway, he was, he was rock solid. He was a machine, you know, and did very well. That's what he does. He's incredibly rigorous. And that's what he's doing in this playoff round. I mean, he also, I mean, you mentioned that. I mean, it takes him, it takes a while to get him to open up. But his, his basketball knowledge is unbelievable. He really does follow the league. And part of the reason why he's as good of a defender as he is is because he is so keen to everybody's habits on the floor. And he doesn't like it when that stuff

gets out. And he doesn't like sharing the stuff about, oh, I know that when this guy goes two dribbles right, he pulls up every time. But how is he by the way? I think the Knicks were like, I said it after the injury. I was like they should absolutely slow play this. They're going to win this series anyway. worst cases they're going to split in Philly and be up 3-1. Should we expect him game one of the next round? I mean, here's the thing, Zach. You know that if there's one team that is going to be forthcoming with injuries, it's the New York Knicks.

You just, you are, you can bet on everything that whatever the Knicks are saying is the absolute 100% truth. The Knicks have never in a million years said that O'GAnoninobe was day-to-day for two weeks straight and then had him. undergo elbow surgery after those two weeks. That's never happened. It didn't happen. They didn't say that Deuce McBride earlier this year was out with a knee injury

only for him to undergo surgery for a. So I should amend my, the Knicks can win the championship thing to like Ananobe has to be part of it. Particularly if they're facing the thunder in the finals or less so the spurs, but the thunder, less so the wolves, but definitely the thunder. Like they need all hands on deck. Yes. And to be clear, I'm not saying that O.J.

Annobe is more hurt. than the Knicks are letting out. I'm just saying that I kind of have to see it before we know. The thing that the Knicks really benefit from is that the conference finals is not going to start until May 17th at the earliest. And if this Detroit series goes long against Cleveland, then it won't start until the 19th. And that'll give An Anobie almost two weeks off since first sustaining the injury, which is a really big deal for them.

Can I just read his playoff numbers really quick? Yeah, they might melt your laptop, but go ahead. They're insane. He's averaging 21.4 points. He's shooting 62 from the field. He's shooting 54 from 3, 81 from the line, 7.5 rebounds for a guy who is not normally, like, that's the one part of his game where it's like you'd like to see that a little bit higher. You'd like to see him a little bit better of a rebounder. And defensively, he's been, I mean, look, I see him play all the time.

I'm at so many of these games in New York. When you watch a guy who's that good, you end up, you end up, you end up, becoming incredibly familiar with their nuances and defensive habits and all of that. But I really think that defensively, he's been as good as he's ever been during this playoff run, just being able to guard everybody. He's a huge credit for the way, I mean, look, the next offense has been insane. They're hitting shot after shot after shot. But defensively, they're playing out of their mind.

And the huge part of that is their ability to put An Anobie on anybody. So they can put Ananobe on, you look at how they defended in the Hawks series. They could put Ananovi on Yenka Ocangu, which allowed them to put Carl Anthony Towns on Dyson Daniels for a lot of that series. And then the next play, they could put O.G. Ananovi on Nikiel Alexander Walker. And he'll just wall off one side of the court and just take away all of Alexander Walker's relocating that he likes to do on the weak side for to create open threes against Philly. Same sort of thing. You can put him on Paul George. You can put him on Embed. it's it's and he is locking guys down he is taking away entire sides of the floor he's disruptive as hell uh he's been i actually think there's a good argument that in the eight games that

he's played he's he's been the best player on the next during this playoff run and i think he's their most important player like i i agree if he's there they can accomplish a whole lot if he's not there obviously they're still a very good team look at what they did to Philly in those two games without him, but it's a different sort of look, especially, by the way, with the way Bridges, you mentioned Bridges' offense. Bridges' defense has was awesome on Tyrese like so good. The whole thing with Bridges that's happened over the last two years is that he's very good defending off the ball. He's really good at getting into passing lane still. He's still an excellent team defender and all of that. But his screen navigation and pick and rolls has taken a hit.

He kind of sees a screen and can shrivel up sometimes. And, And against Maxi, he was so good. Maxi is the second efforts on Maxi so important. Because most guys, if you're going to trap somebody, most guys, they give up the ball. And they wait a second to take a breath. And Maxi will immediately, he just doesn't stop moving. He'll get off the ball. And within a millisecond, he will relocate to the other side of the floor.

And if whoever is defending him takes that one second to catch their breath, which they often do. He's gone. Beep, he is gone. I mean, anyone is gone, let alone the fastest player in the NBA. And Bridges' ability to just not let up on any of those plays, his ability when the Knicks were, when the Sixers were trying to put Jalen Brunson into these pick and rolls, and the Knicks are hedging and recovering. Which they kind of stopped doing. Like, Philly just kind of gave up on that, to your credit of the Knicks defense. They just kind of, the last two games, they just let Brunson exist for the most part.

Yeah, totally. And part of it also is that Brunson's hedging and recover. on these pick and rolls. And Bridges is dropping back and letting Brunson kind of try to stop Maxie for a split second. And he's guarding the area, not just the player, but the area so incredibly well. And there were various times throughout the series where Maxi's like, okay, I've got two guys in front of me. I got to get off the ball. And Bridges's arms are so long. And his hand placement and his body placement are so good and so smart that he's just like he gets a steal off of it. Uh, he was like unbelievable defensively.

And when you have him playing at that level defensively, and Ananobe playing at just normal Ananoby levels and heart playing at the level that he's been, he's been a tremendous point of attack defender for them throughout this entire playoff run. When you've got those three guys, like that's kind of the vision that Nix had for this roster, when they put this together, that the three wings were going to be so good defensively, it would insulate them from the weak spots. And if Kat is going to play at the level that you mentioned earlier where it's like

he's going to be in the right places, he's going to be physical, he's going to, he's going to play hard. He's going to be, he is running back on defense harder than I've ever seen. Even just things like when he blitzed, which they didn't do very often against Philly, but when he would blitz, when you're the blitz guy, you have a decision to make when you recover. Do I recover to my guy rolling to the basket? Or is our scheme that someone else takes him and I peel out and I take a shooter? Regular season cat was awful at that, just like sort of meandering around in open space, not getting to anywhere. when I talk about like execution of just when this happens, we do this, he is nailing that. I mean, they're not asking him to do it a lot and next series might look different in terms

of what they ask him to do, but he was nailing it. Mitchell Robinson, I just want to go back to him. He's probably got more to give and they've had the luxury of managing his minutes and he missed the game in this series pretty, pretty like conservatively. Just one stat I want to mention. I looked it up on the genius IQ tracking data. Regular season, Brunson, Mitchell Robinson, 32 picks. rolls per 100 possessions against Philly 48 per 100 possessions 1.4 points per possession like they are

running that so aggressively part of it was Embed right but they've found a nice groove there and I think he's been awesome and an OB defense let's just briefly look ahead to the next round we don't know who they're going to play game four of Cavs Pistons is tonight the piston swept an X3-0 I think Hart missed one game. Cat and Ann and Obie together missed one game. During missed two, Stewart was suspended for one. Like, there's guys in the out of the lineup. But the common theme was Detroit brought a level of physicality and effort that the NICs just were not ready for.

And that's how they play. And the NICS better be ready for it. And the Pistons have proven, like, it might not be pretty. But we're going to win a lot of these games. And I would expect a long series between the Pistons and the NICs, a long, tough series. And the Nicks better put the hard hats on and bring their lunch pails away. whatever stupid metaphor you want to have for like doing hard work. But I think a couple of things.

I haven't gone back and watched the film yet because I don't want to jinx the pistons. I don't want to curse the calves, whatever. I would assume Annanobi is, Ananoby has guarded Cunningham a fair bit because everyone will take a turn. But to me, he's a pretty perfect, and a Cade Cunningham defender in that he's got bulk size and height and will not be bullied.

and I would expect a lot on him. And I just wonder if, you know, you watched that Orlando series in the way the magic took Duren totally out of the series by going under screens and switching on Cade. I actually think Kat can do that a little bit. And I wonder if the Knicks take a little bit of a page. Now, the Cavs have not done that at all,

and that surprised me a little bit in this series. But I think the Knicks have some answers that they were not really able to lock into in the regular season. But, yeah, I mean, Detroit's going to come in there super confident, ready to kick the crap out of them. And that would be a fun series. Cabs, I have some thoughts on. But what are your thoughts on what I just said about the Pistons?

I think that makes a lot of sense. We saw Ananoi be the primary guy on Cade Cunningham when those two teams played in the playoffs last year. And he did a really good job. Bridges got reps on him also. And Bridges did a really good job on Cunningham, too. This is a different team. I mean, you mentioned the possibility of switching that kind of stuff. That's what OG Ananovy affords you.

Like you can switch him on to Jalen Duren and, and you can be okay, especially if he's going to be this physical on the boards. With Kat, the biggest problem for me with switching Kat is never, oh, he's going to get cooked by a mismatch. That's never the biggest problem for me. The biggest problem for me is you increase his possibility of getting into foul trouble. Fowls and rebounds. Fowls in defensive rebounding. And he's so important for their defensive rebounding too because he has been great on the boards and really physical on the boards all season, not just in the play. playoffs. But the fouls are really what gets it because all of a sudden when you've got Kat on any sort of

aggressive pick and roll coverage with Kat that sends him out to the perimeter, I mean, part of the reason why the Knicks have had him in a drop for the majority of his time with his team is because it just keeps him out of foul trouble. It's the best way to keep him out of foul trouble, even if you might give up a few more shots that you don't want to give up every once in a while. It keeps Kat on the floor. But with the way that he's defending lately, even though he has been getting into foul trouble, A lot of that, I think, is just guarding Joel Embedde, who I think just, they'll just get anybody into foul trouble. It's what he does. You talk about Brunson being a metronome, and Bede is a metronome in that he could be playing well, he could be playing terribly.

He's going to get you into foul trouble every time. And so I think, I think that's part of it. I think also, like, with the way Mitchell Robinson looks and the way that he is playing, you can afford to maybe be a little more aggressive with Katz coverages because they don't lose a ton, even with the way the cat is playing if he has to sit for a little bit because Robinson gives them so much and so many of these other aspects. I mean, he and Stephen Adams are these two unbelievable rebounders who are so much better on the boards than anybody else in the NBA. And I don't think anyone is even close. Yeah. The wild card is the hackamitch. And the combination of hackamitch plus cat being in foul trouble

makes these either Huckporty or Ananobie at the Five, I think is probably their better answer. but they've they anton will be at the five is a totally viable look uh and they have porty's been fine and they've survived those minutes but that combination is is a little bit problematic and mitchell mitch made his foul shots just enough of them yesterday and in game three in the first two games not so much true that's a good point i mean Detroit it'll be very interesting how much Detroit wants to hack Mitch because Detroit fouls a lot they could be prone to fouling a lot and you can end up putting your important players into foul trouble if Mitch is in those games early enough and you want to try to foul. Like you can end up if you start doing it in the first of the second quarter, you can end up racking up one or two fouls on a guy who you do not want to be giving it to if you don't, you know, substitute somebody in just a foul Mitch.

So that's something to look out for it. But that's a good point. That's 100% a good point. I'm not. And by the way, Cavs fans, I'm not counting you out despite the fact that you can't win on the road. And every win feels like it's a disaster. Saster saved at the very end. James Harder, and credit to him, made three huge shots at the end of game three.

Looked not great for the majority of the game. Looked not great in the beginning of the series, but they're alive. They played tonight. The Knicks have eaten the Cavs lunch for most of the last two or three seasons. But I will say the last time they played, I believe it was in New York. Cleveland had everybody. And they found a little something with the alignment of Dean Wade on Brunson, Mowgli on Kat, and Jared Allen.

on Josh Hart because it put your center on Josh Hart to Rove. It had a quick elite defender on Kat to take away his airspace and a switchable defender on Brunson. Now, Wade has been so bad offensively that I'm not going to be surprised if they start Struis tonight in game four in his spot. And the Wade two big combo has been very trouble. I mean, the starting the cat's starting five has actually been like by the numbers. Okay, in the playoffs, not this series.

But I felt like they found a defensive formula that at least in that one game, gave the Knicks some issues, but I just don't have a lot of faith in the Cavs based on how they have played so far in the playoffs, based on how disorganized they look offensively, the total lack of cohesion between Mitchell and Hardin, neither of whom is playing all that well. And just harden the wear down factor.

He's almost 37 years old or maybe already 37 years old and already looks worn down and the playoffs just get longer and harder every round. So I would probably peg Detroit as the tougher opponent for the, Knicks, but the Cavs did go, I want to go back and watch that game because I felt like they found a little something finally against the team that has bullied them and beaten the crap out of them on the boards over and over again. Yeah, that's a great point. I think it'll come down to the rebounding in that one again. Like can the Cavs... Oh, good luck to Cleveland then. If it comes down to the rebounding, may God be with you, Jared Allen and Evan Mowgli. Well, Cleveland is going to have to find ways to make up for losing that game because the Knicks are very good offensive or very good overall. rebounding team with not just Mitchell Robinson, but Katz been really good. And Josh Hart is one of the best, the best rebounding player, at least of his height in the NBA, one of the best rebounding perimeter players in the league. And that team is just a really good team rebounding, is really good at just gang rebounding

in general and really good at chasing down loose balls. And Cleveland's going to have to make up for it in other ways. They're going to have to get to the line. They're going to have to hit their threes. And Cleveland is very big on wanting to win the possession game. They have all of these, you know, crashing strategies to try to get offensive boards that makes them, I think, a better offensive rebounding team than their personnel might suggest, even though they play a double big. Like, they don't have phenomenal rebounding personnel in general. But like, they will have to make up for that, make up for the math in some point because the rebounding would be huge.

But Detroit, different story. Now all of a sudden you're talking about, like, is the three point line going to change things? Because Detroit is going to have to play these lineups where they're going to have to out tough the Knicks, which they, might be able to do, but they're not going to hit a ton of threes in those lineups. And we just saw the Knicks go 11 for 12 from three in a quarter in an NBA playoff game, which was outrageous. The shooting with the Knicks has been absurd. And I don't think he'll necessarily keep up at 11 for 12 levels, 25 for 44.

That was pretty great. It was insane. I mean, do some pride, couldn't miss. Shamet was hitting these shots. It was like, my goodness. Shamit's good. I'm happy for Shamit that the sort of fortune gave him a chance to work his way, back in the rotation because if you're going to make a long playoff run, you're going to need all

your rotation guys at some point. Guys fall in, they fall out. He played well enough that even when Ananoby comes back, I think they could try to find spots where he fits. Let's just quickly talk about the Sixers. Obviously, a super dispiriting end to their season. Tony Jones had a piece for the athletic, the sort of postmortem where he hinted that Embed was not psyched about the front office and the coaching staff coming out of the playoffs, coming out of the McCain trade. and all of that. I think, you know, there was pressure on Daryl Moore and Nick Nurse winning in the first round the way they did against Boston, the number two seed, I think alleviated some of that.

This outcome may bring a little bit of it back. I just don't know, like, what are your alternatives if you're the Sixers? And it's sort of a boring discussion to me because I just feel like, this is kind of who they are. Like, no one is trading for Embedde. Maybe someone could talk themselves into Paul George, but it's not going to be a trade that changes your short-term, medium term life as a franchise for the Sixers. And you're probably going to have to attach something to get off of him. And I'm not sure you want to do that because everything needs to be aimed at the maxi

edgecombe timeline. And you have a couple of draft assets coming from the Clippers. You have the Rockets pick this year. They're capped out. They could have the mid-level or a piece of the mid-level to add another guy. But that doesn't include Ubrae. Grimes is an important player for them. I don't know.

We'll see what kind of rabbi. they can pull out of a hat, but it feels like this is just kind of what they are. Yeah, I mean, the problem with them is that even you include the mid-level, like, Nick Nurse had six guys who he trusted when it mattered. And Grimes was not good for them during this run. Ubre was really good sometimes, but he's a role player. And the reality is that when you only have six guys who you trust and you get to a point where it's like every other day, it's just,

just going to be really, really hard to actually win, especially when a couple of them have off nights or Joelle and Bede can't play, which is something that always has to be baked into the formula because there are always going to be moments where he's unable to play. And he's not going to play for an entire player off run and just be good to go for every game. Yeah, you know, it was interesting to hear him after the game history talk about how he feels like they figured out the knee and that all this other stuff, including appendicitis and like he wasn't quite, his core wasn't quite over that in the finals. And so maybe there's a cause for optimism.

Like, have we figured out the main thing? And if all these other crazy subsequent things don't happen, can we get 60 games in a full playoff round out of him? I just don't have, it's the least sexy take in the world. I just don't ever see him being healthy for a full playoff run. And as long as that remains the case with Discord, I just think they're just not going to get,

I mean, they've been dead in the second round every time. I just, it doesn't seem possible to me. And so that's fine. You get, you know, you got to enjoy the, moments like you had against Boston where the team was the team you dreamed of for a little bit and know that it's probably not going to last and it didn't. That's still a hell of a fun series for Sixers fans. Yeah. I mean, look, even if he's out there, like it's one thing for him to be out there. It's another thing for him to be out there and like be MVP Joel Embed. And you

mentioned him going eight for eight and having 24 points and that's a great line. But the Knicks also made him the premier target for this whole series. They treated him. They treated him as if they would have treated Ennis Cantor, you know? Like they were just- And his freedom, first of all. And his freedom. But that's how, I'm not saying he's become that. I'm saying that's how they treated him.

It was the exact same game plan that you would have if you were facing somebody like that. It was just pull him out. They put in B'd in 99 pick and rolls during this series and they scored 124 points. It was 99 pick and rolls. I mean, it's, that's like, half court offense is supposed to yield you maybe a shade over a point of possession if you're really good at it. Like it's not supposed to be 124 points in 99 pick and rolls.

And they were just pulling him out. Like you mentioned the efficiency of the Mitchell Robinson pick and roll. It's like they were just looking for Embed and be like go at that guy over and over. And it's not like he doesn't have defensive value anymore. He's still good around the rim.

He's really smart. He knows how to use his size. He knows how to position himself. Guys will still drive into the lane, see him there, see how big he is, see that he's well positioned. And they'll turn around and they'll go the other way and that's totally a thing still.

But if you can pull them away from the rim and teams do that, man, the Sixers defense just looked like it couldn't stop anything. And that's a problem. He was also, he was also. He was also just physically a different guy than he was in the last two or three games of the Boston series. Like just the power on offense that he showed in that series. And like he looked for stretches pretty fast defensively, including the ability to make

two and three rotations and rapid fire on the same possession. And he could not do that against the Knicks. Look, we got, we're going to have time to talk about the Knicks. We're going to have time to talk about the Sixers. We await now the conference finals. The Knicks are back in it exactly where they were last year when they broke their quarter century, you know, drought or whatever. And now we await to see if they can break the other drought, the finals drought.

And then there's another drought after that. Fred Katz from the Athletic will be there chronicling all of it. I'll see you soon at the world's most famous arena. Yes, I'll see you there. All right, that's it for today's special Monday edition of the Zach Lowe show. We'll be back on Thursday as scheduled reacting to whatever the hell happens in the NBA between now and then. Thanks to John Krasinski, Jonathan Gavoni, and Fred Katz for their invaluable analysis and their time. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production.

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