The Zach Lowe Show - LeBron Injury Update and Giannis Fit! Big Questions With Steve Nash!

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

Zach is joined by Steve Nash to discuss LeBron’s latest injury concerns and how Giannis jelled with the Heat in his first action. Then, they answer big questions for the upcoming season, including who to trust in the East and which team in the West could jump into a top-six seed. Then, Sean Fennessey joins for Mets Corner to debate the Mets' chances next season and make the case for Carson Benge as Rookie of the Year. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (1:24) Steve Nash joins the show! (3:48) Four questions for the Eastern Conference (27:54) Does OKC still have a "death lineup"? (31:38) Eastern Conference pick besides the Knicks (37:50) Best in the West besides OKC and SA (41:20) Which Western Conference team can jump into the top six? (47:34) Memories of playing with the Suns (50:44) Preseason MVP pick (55:41) How Steve would speed up the game (59:58) Mets Corner with Sean Fennessey! (1:06:15) Serious doubts about whether the Mets can win next season (1:26:04) Are we happy that Andy Green is back? (1:30:51) Benge's Rookie of the Year chances Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Steve Nash and Sean Fennessey Producers: Jonathan Frias, Billy Gil, and Mike Wargon Social: Keith Fujimoto and Michael Szokoli The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. #ULTRACourtside could get you closer to the game! https://michelobultra.com/courtside MICHELOB ULTRA:registered: COURTSIDE ’26 to ’27. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21+ Begins on 10/1/26 and ends on 6/30/27. Multiple entry periods. See Official Rules at https://michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up on the Zach Lowe show live from Spotify's offices in New York. We got Steve Nash. Yeah, that's Steve Nash. He's joining us to talk about a whole lot of stuff that's happened in the Eastern Conference in the last week, Jalen Duren's deal, Kat, not getting an extension and talking about it. Janice's debut with the heat. And LeBron James had those right as in his foot. What's going on?

And then I put Steve Nash through the paces some of the big questions of the NBA season. Who does he think is going to come out of the East? Who does he think as a puncher's chance in the West other than Spurs Thunder? What team in the bottom of the West might have a chance to move up? Who's his MVP pick? What are his finals picks?

Amazon Prime, Steve Nash, in the house. And then Sean Fennessee in person, in New York City, home of the New York Metropolitan Baseball Club. It's Mets Corner. We talk about playoffs. We talk about diarrhea. Yeah, that comes up. We talk about the present and future of the New York Mets.

Carson Benj, my struggles trying to buy a Carson Benj jersey. Andy Green, Francisco Alvarez. A lot of baseball talk. The playoffs have been fun. Sorry, San Diego Padres fans. You've had a couple of gut punches. All of that coming up on the Zach Lowe show. Do the Zach Lowe show.

And look who it is. My sometimes Amazon Prime teammate, former head coach of the Brooklyn Nets, two-time NBA MVP, Canadian All-Around Sports Legend. Steve Nash, how are you? Very well, all-around sports legend. I love that. Sounds great. Well, people say you're so good at tennis that it's borderline obnoxious, given how recently you picked it up.

These are just sources that have spoken to me. Unnamed sources. Unnamed sources. One of them is German. By the way, two-time MVP's. Where are your MVP trophies? Where do you keep them? Could we say in my parents' closet somewhere, you know, like a storage space?

And then I actually have loaned one indefinitely. to the Sun, so it'll be in their front at the front office at the Sun's headquarters. Sons of Mercury headquarters here in Phoenix. So you don't get to see them on a regular basis and admire them and think about all you've accomplished? That's not really my MO. I kind of like to live forward. But it's nice that you brought it up.

Made me feel good for a moment. Well, you know why? I'm going to break some news right here, Steve. This is very important to me. I can now, I think, consider myself your peer because, I have been named by the NBA as an MVP of, I don't have the trophy in front of me, but they presented me a trophy. I go to a meeting every year with their art and court design and jersey people because I love that stuff so much.

And they show me everything that's coming for the year. They presented me like a gigantic trophy with like a guy taking a jump shot. It weighs like 20 pounds. And it's most valuable writer of art and design culture. So I think, I think. Yes. I think the Hall of Fame is next for me. But I'm not home right now.

I'm at our Spotify studio. I will put it. I will display it. My MVP trophy on the next podcast I do from home. All right. I prepped you with a lot of questions because you're going to be in America's living room all the time in the world's living room on Amazon Prime, NBA nightcap, all that. And it's time to get you on record for some big picture NBA stuff.

Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. First of all, the first of all, the first big question is. is going to be about the Eastern Conference, a question that I've asked a million people. But since I started asking people this question, four major things have happened in the Eastern Conference

that I want your quick take on. Number one, according to Dave McManneman, LeBron James, you know him as your podcast partner on Mind the Game, is dealing with chronic arthritis in his left foot. I do enjoy how every LeBron injury is reminding me at age 49 of the injuries that are befalling my peer group

in suburban loserdom. Connecticut. Did you know about this? Like, how much of LeBron's life do you know about that you just keep secret and don't tell anybody? No, I did not know about this. That was, that was interesting. You know, you sent me over the link. This may have been something he's been dealing with for a few years. You know, arthritis can, you know, obviously is a long-term thing. So this may be sound, you know, highlight worthy for you and I right now. I did not know. But This might be something he's already been dealing with, like the sciatica, it's said in the same article. So he clearly, at his age, the amount of miles he's put on his body, this will be the challenge for Nick Nurse is how do we get through a regular season, reach our stride in the best health possible, while also jelling, finding a way to play at both ends and what our off-speed pitches are, et cetera, et cetera, when, you know, Joe has an injury history and LeBron has one billion miles on his body.

So I think that's the major, major challenge for Nick and for that team is how do they find chemistry? How do they gel? How do they find a style of play? Because, you know, often – and LeBron and I talked about this on the podcast. You know, often you go into a situation and think this is the way I think it would be best for us to play. And by Christmas, you go, we can't possibly play this way. And you change. You throw it all out.

Well, that timeline is pretty short when it's the first time together. And the spring gets there before you know it. You've never been in those moments before it collectively. So it puts a lot of pressure on the pipe, so to speak. And I think that that'll be his biggest challenge and their team's biggest challenge is managing the injuries and the history, the miles on LeBron and Joe, while also finding a style of play

because they're going to need them all to compete in the East. We will circle back to the Sixers. East item number two. Janice Sintacinpo made his debut for the Miami Heat in a preseason game. It's the first preseason game in a while I've had circled on my proverbial calendar. It was at Toronto.

No, it was in Montreal, rather, against the rabbit. wasn't it? Quebec City. You know what? Just, I'm not even going to be welcomed in Canada the next time I try to get. I know this is such a cultural podcast. I want to make sure we got the beats right. You know what? I'm glad you called me out on it. I've actually never been to Quebec City. I've been to Montreal a few times, but not Quebec City. I've heard it's gorgeous. Sorry to the everyone in Quebec City. I was eagerly anticipating this game. The Heat started the Clay Thompson version of their starting five, which is the one I anticipated. They played that starting five. Two stints of a about six minutes each and then went with the whole bench mob. Obviously, they'll stagger. I think Janice and Bam a lot in the regular season.

But I wanted to see how that tandem looked, who had the ball the most, how they could space the floor, how they could work together, how much of the heats offense from last year when they ran that like no pick and roll, all dribble drive, no La Roche offense would carry over into this iteration. I know you caught glimpses of that game. It's only preseason. Did you see anything interesting? that Janus is a very tough cover still apparently.

He looks great. A one man wrecking ball, the athleticism, laying strength, ability, skills, looked in mid-season form on the clips that I saw. Spoh will do a great job, staggering, keeping one of them on the floor at all times, and finding a way of play, a style of play that they can play in crunch time, most importantly.

So that I think is the divot. of having a player who is so dominant with the ball is, you know, it draws so much attention as Janus is how do you play when he's off the floor and finding as much of that chemistry and a new style of play theoretically when he's off the floor because you can't just lean on him to create advantages every time down. And then, of course, you know, Bam, as terrific as he is, is not Janus offensive. He's going to have to shoot more threes. That'll be something to be determined.

He's showed he's capable. but can he consistently get in that position where they leave him, but they don't leave him and it creates more space for Janus or vice versa. And then like you said, surrounding him with shooting, seeing how some of those bench players come through with this kind of new look heat. So number one, what a great tool for Spout to play with. Yonis drawing doubles and triple teams and opening it up for the rest of the team. I think they'll be good defensively,

but I still think although Quebec City look great, there will be challenges offensively for them to see where their depth. and rotations come from. Yeah, they lit up the raptors on offense. I agree with you. I don't read too much into those results. I was struck by a couple of things. Number one, just how central, not this is going to sound stupid,

but Janus had the ball a lot and was the fulcrum of everything they did. It was not like an equal split with him and Bam running DHOs and stuff. Like this is going to be Janus's offense and Bam is going to have to kind of find a way to coexist with him, which is what you mentioned. They ran some two-man game together, which I think will be some. something they try to go to, just put your best players in an action. Teams are going to try to switch it. But, you know, some centers, slower centers have a hard time staying with Janus.

And the Raptors wanted Yacca Pertil on Bam and not Janus. And a lot of teams will match that. Wiggins, they apparently went to Wiggins just like, I want you to shoot 15-3s a game because that dude was just like letting it fly with hands in his face the whole game. And they clearly are going to carry over some of what they did last. year offensively. They ran some of that same Noah LaRose dribble drive stuff. It wasn't all pick and roll. Yannis was a screener a lot.

So interesting, TBD didn't really change my view of the heat. I think they're good, but we'll see how great they can be. Okay, the next two big, of the big four things that happened in the East are both contract related. We will start today, Carl Anthony Towns basically came out and told the media,

I'll read the quote. Simply put, I want to do something to keep the team together and can work with the Knicks and also values me. None of these things are close to happening, aka he basically said we're not close to an extension, doesn't sound optimistic about getting an extension. I think they're pretty far apart from what I've heard. Obviously, they let Mitchell Robinson go already after James Dolan followed up an NBA championship

by immediately being like, yeah, we can't keep this team together, second apron, can't do it. I just, you were a player who cared a lot about the feel of your locker room and everybody being engaged and everybody feeling happy and everybody touching the ball. If this kind of thing with Kat and I think less so with Josh Hart lingers into the season, personally I think like Kat's a pro. He was in trade rumors last year about Janus. Obviously it didn't affect their team. I don't think there's going to be any like there's no overt malcontent here or anything

like that. I'm going to get back to Dolan in a second. But can this stuff like affect the way the team plays on the floor? Is this anything that would worry you as a Knicks fan? I mean, it definitely can affect things. However, you know, they fought through things like this before. You know, you'll remember the quotes Kat had early in the Mike Brown era where he wasn't sure what his place was on offense. It sounded ominous.

Then they go out, they win the mid-season tournament. And then they find a kind of a style of play, a more, you know, egalitarian style, a style that I think made them more difficult to guard, less predictable, put Kat in different position, used him as a hub, got the ball moving a little more difficult. made it made it more difficult to load up on Jalen. So they've worked through some things before. Now, money is money, and I never want someone to have to turn down money if that is their prerogative. However, I think there's a common ground here where these guys are all going to make so much money in their career that they can find that middle ground by not getting so deep

into second apron peril. And at the same time, he'd be rewarded for his role in a championship team and the team going forward. So I have hopes that they will figure out a balance that both can live with. But that's the reality of the way the salary cap is built. It's very hard to be happy. You know, you, you are going to be up against the apron if you build a good team. And we're seeing that around the league.

And you have a decision like Boston or maybe OKC made this year to go in a direction that kind of gives them relief from the second apron and flexibility going forward. Or you have the Knicks who are hot off a championship. And that would be a bold move. I mean, to change it all up right now. The bigger question I think you're going to get to is what happened to the spending New York Knicks. of earlier iterations, you know, especially in this Dolan era. So that, that to me is more curious.

But I guess if that is, and who knows, is that a bargaining ship to say that? Or is that, you know, are you laying down some sort of precursor to all these negotiations? Or is that something that he'll come off of? I'm not sure. I'm glad you brought that up because I have a few takes I would like to get off on this subject. Just let's set the lay of the land first. Cat has a $61 million player option for next season. His max, if he opts out of that and signs a max and free agency,

is almost $70 million a year average annual value. I have said before that I think something like 50 to 55 a year per year, not starting and raising for that, but per year seems like the kind of compromise that should be able to get things done given Kat's age, his occasional limitations on defense and all that stuff and and what he's accomplished in his career. I don't think anyone's close to that. And I still think that is like a happy outcome for all sides that will get done.

It can keep the Knicks under the second apron or close to it for the next couple of seasons. Okay. Thing number two. I think I can already tell by the Twitter reactions that fans, and maybe this is your point about Dolan, that there's a segment of Knicks fans who are mad at Kat for not sacrificing for the team. the way Brunson famously did two years ago when he took an extension.

I think there's a misunderstanding about that Brunson extension. He signed the absolute max that he could sign at that time in the summer of 2024. He did not, quote, take less in terms of what he could have signed at that moment. He took less than he could have gotten if he had waited a year, become a free agent, and signed a five-year max deal, which he chose not to do. He chose to lock up the money, help the team's financial flexibility. and I think he'll probably get the 35% max the next time his deal has come.

But I don't think it's fair to throw at Kat. Hey, Brunson, Brunson took less, you should take less too. He did not really take less in the sort of literal sense. Number three, I've had a bunch of people tell me this in the last two or three weeks, and I kind of tossed it away as like, maybe I'm half brainwashed by the second apron. Maybe I just know that they're agents talking to me and nobody really likes James Dolan. I just, I like, this is the team that should spend over the second apron.

You just won the championship. You have a championship team. You don't just print money. You like live on top of a pile of money from the Rangers, from the garden, from the Knicks, from tax breaks. This is, this is the whole reason you should be doing this is to have this kind of team. And I, and I've had a lot of people say to me like, you should be hitting James Dolan harder for not spending more to keep this team together. I'm like, second apron respect. I think those people are right.

And I don't, I'm not saying catch, just get the max. But I'm saying this is like a, you have the city's goodwill for the first time in a long time. You have a team that is objectively a championship team. You've already let it sluff away one valuable piece that went to your rival, Boston. I just, you know, like, this is the whole point of having a team. I don't, I don't, I think James Dillon's getting off a little easy. And I don't like the anger at cat that's burbling up. I'll say that.

Big thing in the East number four. that's going to lead us to our first big question. Jalen Duren agreed finally, after much drama, to a five-year, $200 million contract extension with the Pistons, no options, no outs, no nothing. And it has led to, I think, a broader question that I wanted your expertise on. Okay, so now the Pistons have Assar Thompson locked up and Jail and Duren locked up. And both of them are non-shooters, right?

and they have an all-time lead guard in Cade Cunningham who needs spacing to maximize what he can do. And we saw in the playoffs that that combination, the floor is kind of tight. And I just, you know, there's this sort of blanket idea that, well, you just can't win a championship with two non-shooters on the floor.

A couple of things. Number one, Cade plus Duren, plus a SAR, take up only, only 70% of the salary cap. This is not a case where, like, Boston had two guys taking up, you know, 80% of the salary cap almost. It's not a case of Oklahoma City who's going to have three guys taking up 110% of the salary cap. It's three guys, 70%.

Yes, they missed out on Austin Reeves with their like last bite at the Cap Space Apple this summer, but they still have like flexibility, flexibility. But I'm interested, like them, the pistons and then the rockets with Shengun and Amman Thompson, two non-shooters, both, I think have ambitions. of competing at the absolute highest levels soon, if not this season. What do you think of the idea that two non-shooters is like a borderline disqualifier for a would-be championship team now? Well, I would say it is a disqualifier, to be honest.

But that is not just my Mike Dan Tony hat on and understanding spacing and the way the games played, officiated, and analytics have, you know, impacted our game. And that is also because we're talking about competing with not just the New York Knicks, but OKC and San Antonio Spurs. To beat teams of that quality, I think that puts it even under a tougher microscope to have two non-shooters. Now, if I'm the Pistons, I'm thrilled that I was able to sign those two young, very talented players.

Yes, Duren underperforming the playoffs. But at 40 mil, I think was reported. That is a pretty good buy for a 21, 22-year-old center with his ability, his regular season performances and his, you know, relationship with Cade, that he can continue to develop into a, you know, an all-star-ish center at Thor, you know, especially in the regular season. As far as a sorry, you know, this is just the guy you need on the basketball court, right? Yes, it hurts to have two non-shooters. I think they have to be creative.

I think they tried with some of the cutting. I was a little surprised they didn't put him in more short action under the basket or he's coming, for example, pick and roll. Cade's coming to his right. Duren's rolling hard. Asar is coming from head under the rim to the strong side block showing there his gravity is immense. If you don't take that pass away, he's too athletic. He catches. He's fouled or he's finishing there. And it allows the roller then to have one tag on the backside. You may say, well, that clogs it up for Cade to get downhill.

I think in our league, at that ability at Cade's size and skill level, it doesn't matter if someone's standing flatfooted down there at the pain. You can still attack the rim. He's got his mid range. He's got his three and he's got his draw and kick game or hitting the roller. So I'd like to see him mix it up in more ways than that. You can put him in the strong. corner that's sorry i'm i'm walking us through all the permutations no i want you to yeah you could put him in the strong corner they'll probably muck off in there he could still cut behind uh which i think is in play but more tricky i think for them it's about variety and it's about development so i think durr needs to develop a little bit more of uh some midranged shootings uh some you know can he be more dominant in the middle of the pain on post

ups on switches when they try to switch defenses on kate can they can their cutting packages be better for Asar? Can they turn people over to make up for the spacing issues to get out of transition? You know, you should be able to with defenders like the three we're talking about and their big three. How can they stack the deck, play the possession game, give them an opportunity to overcome some of the half-court issues that they're going to have to play around? But at the end of the day, you have to sign two young players like that. And at any point, you can make a move if you feel like that's not the case. Similar in Houston, I think, you know, for me, the benefit and maybe a SAR,

goes in this category, Corey as his brother, how much can they be the roller or the point guard playmaker in those situations? So can Asar grow into it? We've seen all men grow into of being able to ball handle, make plays, getting attacking the pain where his gravity obviously is immense. Can he be the screener and roll? Can they both be the screener and roller in different packages? And then Shangoon, like for me, he's got to be a better three point shooter. He has the ability. He's shown it. Can he now develop into being a high 30s, 40% three point shooter so that He has the optionality to be the roller, to be the shooter, to let Amen be the roller. You know, now you have a lot of things, whether you're having small shepherd or Fred Van Vleet screening for Amen and them getting downhill.

Those guys popping, Shangoon playing on the baseline, whatever it may be, how can you find variety in different ways to make up for what is a perceived lack of shooting and spacing for your primary guys? And also, like, how can you be good at other stuff? Like, you have to be a very good defensive team. Can you, like, the Rockets be an elite rebounding team? Can you be an elite free throw differential team? Like, chip away at all of these edges. So I went through to help myself answer this question. I went through every team who's made the finals since LeBron went to Miami to see, like,

actually, let's look back and see how realistic is for teams with two non-shooters to make the finals. You know, famously, like Oklahoma City did not get here until. they kind of offloaded Josh Gideas. Like, we just can't have you on our team. Toronto had to trade Jonas Valenciunis for Marcus Sol to open up more spacing. Like you have these like famous perk in Oklahoma City. They kind of ran its course with the two bigs there. Miami transitions to Bosch at center more than two big guys together.

So all that said, here are the combinations I found that we can say these are like legit non-shooting duos that shared the floor a lot for teams that made the finals. And I understand that some of them are not applicable to the current Thompson twins respective situations. 2024 Mavs, Derek Jones Jr. and all of their centers lively Gafford were like Joan, that was like their most used lineups, had Derek Jones Jr. who call him an on-shooter or not, he's guarded like one, playing with rim running centers. Did I jump in real quick there? Yes.

Derek Jones Jr., PJ Washington, shot the ball like Larry Bird and Dirk Nowitzky, to make the finals and then it sort of went away. So maybe there's an anomaly in there as well. We will get to this. Butler and Bam twice for Miami. Now this gets back to your point that, A, these are two of the, you know, Butler's a top 10 player at that point.

Bam is a top 20 player. And they can both handle the ball. So they're not off to the side. Probably. And like, Asar is more sort of like trying to find a spot off to the side. I think would need to hand. handle the ball more. I'm just disqualifying every Draymond-

plus like Sivan Louie. I'm just, it's out. Like, he's the greatest playmaking power forward of all time. He's surrounded by the two best shooters of all time or with apologies to the person on the other end of this podcast. Two of the best shooters of all time. Yannis and PJ Tucker. I'm not even counting that because Janus is an all-world ball handling player

and PJ Tucker could make corner threes or at least stand in the corner. So it's not quite equivalent. And then you go back to like the bubble Lakers started Anthony Davis and either Javille McGee or Dwight Howard from almost all of that playoff run until they had to go Anthony Davis at center when they were really stressed out. They started Marquief Morris and then Alex Caruso. And then way back when the Spurs won it in 2014, Duncan Splitter was their starting front court, two finals runs in a row. But like the further they got, the less splitter played, the more year old buddy Boris Dio played. So I think the lesson of this is not like, oh, yeah, of course you can win a title with two non-shooters.

I think you can, but it's really, really hard. And one of them has to be your best ball handler or among your best ball handlers. Or you have to have like LeBron or Luca or Cade, hopefully, on your team to simplify everything and make it work. It's actually, it's doable, but it's hard. But I'm like you, like I'm rooting for the Pistons to succeed because I love. like an NBA where there's a lot of different ways to win. And I think a Star Thompson could take more of a ball handling role as or dribble handoff role, like just something to put him on the ball and not off the ball.

Jail and Duren is 22 years old. He's going to get better and better and better. They should be a great defensive team. They should be a great rebounding team. I just, I'll say this over and over again. You don't get to go superstar shopping at the super star grocery store. This is what the Pistons had. If they dumped Jail and Duren yesterday or in.

two months, they're going to have to get assets to then use to get another big man who's as good as jail and Dern, but maybe can shoot easier said than done. But that was an interesting walkdown, walk down history because it's possible, but it's suboptimal. And you make a great point, like, I'm looking at history. You're looking at the future. Like, here are the teams you got to beat at the top of the West. Like, you've got to be perfect to beat those teams.

Yeah. If it was flatter at the top, maybe you could find a way or an easier way, a more seamless way to win those margins you talked about. I think that's the key here is how can they find those margins? You know, obviously Houston's done it on the offensive glass with Stephen Adams at all. You know, Detroit defensively has been great. Can they, like you said, turn people over? Can they get to win the foul discrepancy?

It's possession game stuff that suits your team. That stuff matters. I would say the other component here. And that's where OKC won because I think when OKC won it, they really didn't shoot the ball that well, the entire run. Now, guys, and I don't know if the numbers are in front of me, but it didn't feel that way, but they're still a threat. And people still guard them, and people still have to make tough decisions

and their style of play. But to me, they won because they turn people over, because of Shays' brilliance, because of the different thing, you know, Jalen Williams showing up for 40 in a finals game. Like, they won because of all the other things, not so much that they didn't shoot the ball well. So there's that. There's the winning in the possession game.

There's other ways to stack the deck in your favor that can kind of overcome some of your, spacing issues or finding a style of play that really suits and committing to it, which is really difficult. So I'll use the Warriors for an example. Yes, Ramon, brilliant. Yes, two of the best shooters of all time. But having Looney out there playing on the weak side as another hub, you have to be up to touch a non-shooter because it's Currier Clay on the weak side firing off. So you can't just muck in the paint if Kavon's standing 20 feet from the basket because if that ball gets skipped to him and there's clay coming out of the corner, you have to be up to the level. So that's committing to a whole

new way of playing that is very, very difficult, I think from a coaching perspective, from a playing perspective, and really buying into that. And when you have a player like Cade, it's even more difficult to someone who's so dominant, so good with the ball to commit to the ball going the other side. And our men's catching it and going straight, you know, DHO out of the corner with Isaiah Joe. Brilliant. Great. But, you know, now we've got to start from training camp saying that let's get the ball out of Kate's hands, which is a completely different kind of cycle for a team and its evolution. So I think that commitment, the Warriors made year after year

made it possible for them to play that way, along with the obvious gifts. But you would say nowadays, Draymond Green and Camon Lundi on the court together doesn't work. But obviously the way they played, it did work. By the way, before we move on to the big questions, one of the things that I'm just, I'm just watching

in my, it's in my back pocket night to night once the season starts. And I'll be your take on it. It was notable to me as we talk about spacing and optimal lineups, that the tougher the opposition got, the more the thunder just completely went away from playing Chet Holmgren as the only big man on the floor.

I went from thinking, this is what their closing five is going to be, is like Shea Mitchell, Jay Dove. Yeah. Caruso and then Chet is the only big. And they basically just never did that when the going got tough. Is that, what do you make of that? Is that still,

I assume that's still a look they want to get to, but it was interesting to me that they backslid away from it. So I don't think that that has to be thrown out. I think they have gone away from it, for sure. I don't think it has to be thrown out. That's something, though, that Shep has to develop into. I mean, if he becomes more of an ass kicker, both ends of the floor, we know his impact offensively, we know his talent offensively.

If he can become that guy that is shooting in a slightly higher clip offensively, is driving that gravity he's created by shooting better and is using his length to get in the paint, make plays fouls, you know, draw a crowd and make place for others. I think they can go to that lineup more. I think as he's been a little up and down offensively, they've probably said back to our margins conversation, hey, let's be bigger.

Let's beat people up. We've got check in space, check and rebound, offense rebound. He can make some plays. But we have Hartnstein to be that short roller to connect the dots. And now we've got two seven footers who can give us, you know, a real opportunity to control the glass at both ends. And if we control the glass at both ends and we turn people over, we have Shay who can close games and take us home.

So that would be why I believe they've probably gone away from giving him the keys to that death lineup. Having said that, I still think Chet's going to continue to get better and develop. And if he took this playoff, let's call it a failure in the way I think. I think that's fair. I think we can call it a failure. Yeah, I mean, you know, that he didn't play it as best. And I think that that will spur him on, no pun intended, to raise his game to become a, a more, you know, reliable shooter,

a more reliable closeout player, a more reliable kind of, you know, a player that plays up to his capabilities and isn't, I'm happy to be the third or fourth fiddle because his talent is immense, his work ethic is there. I think he's got the toughness and the will. So I think his development is still all out there,

and that could give them an opportunity to play that lineup on different occasions if he continues to get better. All right. Let's take a quick break and then we'll do rapid fire, big questions with Steve Nash. This episode is brought to you by Mickelope Ultra, the official beer sponsor

of the NBA. As this season tips off, boy, would I love to be close to the action of Michaelobulter in hand at Thunder Spurs at Knicks' Ring Night, any Knicks Sixers game. How about Jalen Brown when he returns to Boston courtside with the Michaela Bolter for any of those? The NBA has got a ton of great rivalries. Plus, great news for fans.

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These are questions I've already asked myself and others, but my mind keeps changing. I keep thinking about them all the time. Question number one, if you have to pick a team to make the finals from the East, and I, because it's my show and my rules, am barring you from making the safe prediction and picking the Knicks,

whether you want to or not, who would you pick to make the finals out of the Eastern Conference? My, uh, my, what's the word I'm my nostalgia my sentimentality says the Pacers I would love to see

the Pacers. Having said that they they're capable of but they did catch lightning in a bottle in a lot of ways. What are the factors that they need to overcome first Halley needs to be flying by the playoffs which I think is totally in play

for him. They have to figure out Zoo's relationship with the team which I think is totally in play for him. I think he's an excellent player and will them. I'm not worried about his spacing issues, Allah, although he does a lot of other things, Allah, Kayvon Looney, Weekside Screener, D.H.O. Hub, like this, I think his gravity will be fine. T.J. McConnell needs to get back to his best. And then, you know, getting some of these other guys to kind of find their roles as they did, that bench mob was fantastic, how they were able to speed the game up, forced turnovers, get in transition.

Who would that be for them going forward? But in my heart, I would love to see the Indiana Pacers get back to that place because it's, I mean, there's no more, nothing more tragic than an underdog story. Honestly, I think one of the greatest stories in professional sports, like, but we don't really talk about it anymore because they lost. They lost in game seven where their best player, Tours Achilles and made, I think three out of four threes to start the game and some from another area code. So a very, very, very tragic end for them and to see them have the opportunity to get back there. to, I would like to say that. Maybe that's sentimental, but that's my goal. Okay, I was going to say, it sounds like you have a heart and a head pick,

but you just have a hard pick and that's it. It's the Pacers. Yeah, and hopefully my head is in there as well. But yeah, they've got some things to prove, I think. I can't. So I don't know if you listen to the episode I did with Goldsbury where I did this. I have trust issues with all these other teams. Just I have massive things that I don't trust about them.

And in the end, I couldn't believe I did it. I said, you know what? If I don't trust anybody, I'm going to take the moonshot and I'm going to pick the Sixers as my non-Nix team. And we all know the issues. We talked about the word arthritis has already been said multiple times on this podcast in regard to your podcast partner and the Sixers. But that was my pick. Okay, big question number two. Western Conference.

Oh, first of all, I think we just need to talk for 90 seconds. You texted me out of the blue. I hadn't seen you yet. the Yokic backhand across the baseline pass in a preseason game, like the game was not even worthy of that pass. Like, I, no, save that for prime time on Amazon, Friday night, you know, 8.30 p.m. But I don't know that I've ever seen a pass quite like that.

And you are one of the greatest passers in the history of basketball. When you see something like that, when you saw that, did it remind you of anything? What was your reaction to it other than texting people like, dude, did you see what this dude just did? It's, I mean, it's, so I think a lot of players,

especially a lot of great pastors, they see that. Getting it there is a completely other thing. I mean, he was pushed out almost to the corner, and now he's got to go on a rope to the other corner. One, like just doing that in an empty gym

is not easy. So I think a lot of great pastors could see like, hmm, that guy's, he's a lot of, little high. His defender's a little high. I can get it there. But by the time I turn and throw it, he's not high anymore. He's stealing that path. So it can only be one way, and that's disguising it and quickly throwing it behind the back where no one's eyes are expecting it. And it disguises the

ball from, say, his belly button to when the defender can actually see it. He probably won't see it until it's, you know, in the middle of the paint, which is too late. So seeing it is great. I mean, great vision, great awareness. Tricking the defender by going behind the back, takes it to another level. And then getting it there on the money, I mean, it's just ridiculous. I don't know that there's anyone else in the history of the game that could make that pass in disguise the way he did, as quick as he did, and on a rope and on the hands as he did. And that is just what makes Nicola Yoakish so unique. So an unbelievable pass. It's right on the money.

It's not even an inch this way or an inch that way. It's right on the money. And it's funny you mentioned the empty gym. My first reaction was, holy shit. My second reaction was, I wonder how long, how many tries it would take me, would it just me and a shooter? Forget like no defender anywhere, like totally empty gym. That exact location, that exact distance, that pass one handed around the back.

I don't, I think I might need 500 tries and even that might not be enough. Like I might just not be able to do it because it's so long. Yeah. And I think, you know, no offense, that I could do it. I could get it there in the first few tries. But my point is, for me, at most size. I like how you preface that with no offense, no offense said the two-time MVP. But my point is, is that for me to get it there, the inertia I would have had to create the torque to get it there

would have given the game away. And, you know, people would have read that and seen my body torquing and twisting and turning. But he's so big, strong that he just flung it with the arm. And that disguised it long enough. no one was the wiser and the ball's on the money and it's in the hole. So that's what makes him special is his height, strength, the vision, all combined together, not to mention his ability to handle the ball, put it on the floor, play bully ball if he needs to shoot it, stretch it, get in spaces that he shouldn't be able to get into with his foot speed.

So the whole package is just what makes him special on that signed off for me. Okay. Big question number one related to this Western Conference. if we if in this event we arrived at April at playoff time and there was a third team in the West, spurs are healthy, thunder's healthy. There's a third team in the West that we arrive in April and say, oh, wow, they actually could like compete with these teams, like more than a Hail Mary, more than a puncher's chance to actually beat one of those two teams in a playoff series,

or at least it's like two, two going into game five. What team would you pick? Well, going through it in reverse. order, I would say, just to start a conversation, I would say we're talking L.A. and then Houston and then somewhere between Denver and Minnesota, depending on how these things unfold. And so for me, I think if Aaron Gordon's healthy, I think Denver is my call. But I also am very intrigued. I think Minnesota's floor could be lower than last year, and they're ceiling higher. So they're the wild card for me.

But if I had to pick, you know, on the spot, I would say Denver with a healthy Aaron Gordon. I pick Houston. And I feel even better about my Houston pick the longer the preseason goes. First of all, the real pick is no one. Like if those two teams are healthy, I'm just not sure there's anyone. But I think people are sleeping on the Rockets with Van Vleet back. I think they're going to try to be more judicious with. Stephen Adams and just to try to get him through the 82.

Obviously, there's pressure on him, Amyu Doka and his staff after the offense looked for most of the last season. Your whole offense can't just be rebounding your own misses. You have to have a little more than that. But I think Van Vleet is a sea change for them. And I just think all the young guys will get better. I like that team. Look, as long as Yokic is upright and if they're healthy, they're probably the best answer.

I just don't, it's hard for me to have faith that Aaron Gordon is going to be healthy. I completely understand. I just think Aaron Gordon is such an incredible player and such an incredible fit with Nicole Iokach. We just all want to see it. We want to see these tough tights conference semifinals with them flying. But I think the Houston pick is a great one. For the reason I touched on a little bit earlier

is you have three young players there that can develop a lot. And they may take a leap when you talk about Alpern Sangoon, you talk about Amend Thompson, and you talk about Reed Shepard. Yes, Fred Van Fleet will have a huge impact on their team, not even as much, he will on the floor, but more so I think just as a personality, as a leader, as a calming influence,

he would be incredible for that team. But those three young guys still have a lot of upside. And if they all improve a little bit, let alone if one of them takes a bigger jump, you know, I think that's a team that could really, like you said, be slept on so far this season. Plus Tarisen and Jabari's Jr. You can throw them into the improved.

They're very young player as well. Sorry, I didn't mention them. And also, like, I think Marcus Smart is, legitimately helpful for them. That kind of slid under the radar. He was good for the Lakers last year. I'm not sure what you can rely on for him shooting-wise, but he was good.

And there is like, I assumed that Bogdan Bogdanovich, who signed there for the minimum, was just kind of at the end of his NBA career, and I assumed he wouldn't do much. I've heard he's actually playing pretty well in camp. It's like the more little triggers you can pull in playoffs, the better.

So we'll see. I agree. Big question number three, also from the West, the sort of reverse of this. And maybe the answer is no one, but I'm making you answer it anyway. If you mentioned Lakers, Rockets, Wolves, Nuggets as the four teams underneath San Antonio, Oklahoma City, sort of the top six, the non-play-in real playoff teams from last year. I think the odds are they are the same six non-play in real playoff teams this year. But if we got to the end of the season, maybe one of them takes an injury, maybe the Lamello thing doesn't work, whatever.

What team below them could you see having a semi-plausible path to unseeding them for the sixth seat or the fifth seat or whatever? Or is there no team? No, I think it's possible. You know, I won't go any further than my Phoenix sons. I think that they're a look, Phoenix as a terrific coach, they have a very stable leader in Devin Booker. and they have a bunch of combative, competitive guys that want to play together and play the right way. I think for them,

they're going to have to have some leaps from some of their young guys. Come on, Maluwa, also Iguidara, you know, Roshir Fleming, Ryan Dunn. Some of these guys are going to have to continue to improve. And I think that is their upside going to this. But because they are such a competitive, gritty group that's well-coached and coachable, they could surprise some people.

And then, you know, you look at Portland's, I don't know what to make up Portland. You know, they prove they can really defend this year. And then we imagine they're going to put out lineups to start the year that aren't defensive lineups. So it's very interesting to see how they can balance the two, how they can find a way of playing that spreads lineups and makes them potent offensively, but also doesn't completely lose their identity. They formed last year with kind of size, length, speeding people up, turning them over. Because I thought that identity was great, a little more shooting. they would have a chance to be a really tough Alba West. Have you tried to help Osso Yadara with his free throw shooting?

Are you allowed to do that? Have you done this? I am allowed. I haven't so far yet. There's a lot of great coaches over there. I don't want to get in there. But I'm definitely happy and have my thoughts. But these guys, I will say about also, he works his tail off.

Everybody loves that kid. Yeah, he works his tail off. as do the rest of those guys I just mentioned a few minutes ago. And that's why they were able to win games when no one had them win in any last year. Speaking of the Suns, before we get back to West stuff, how was it seeing Mike Dantonie and Amari Stademeyer inducted into the Hall of Fame this year? I assume you were there. I was not there.

I was in Europe. But particularly Dan Tony, who, you know, you just never know when these coaches who don't win the championship are ever going to get their due. It took Rick, Rick Adelman forever. I thought he should have been in the Hall of Fame a long time before that. I was, I just am super happy for both of them. But obviously they both change your career and you change their careers. What was that weekend like?

What are your favorite memories from it? Like, what's, what's going to stick out to you? Yeah, it was a blast. I mean, it was, first of all, the main thing is just being incredibly proud and, and excited to see them both be recognized for their greatness. Mike has changed the game in so many ways. And, you know, whether it's what he did with us, you know, at Phoenix or what he did with the rockets.

I mean, you know, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he didn't get a, it didn't get a ton of bounces in some of those, uh, series. But he had his team in the hunt and I think changed the way people look at the game. So, uh, just an incredible impact, super bright, um, basketball mind, but also just a world class human being. And Amari, um, is one of the most unique players we've ever seen. the combination of incredible feet, explosiveness, size, strength, hands, you know, a very, very rare combination, how nimble he could be at his size. What a pick and roll partner he was for me to see him overcome so much in his life. You know, he went to so many high schools, you know, whatever he overcome from his childhood

through high school to the NBA, to getting to where he got with, let's not forget, like micro fracture, the eye. you know, different things he had to overcome physically as well as the things he overcame in his life. I mean, just a tremendous, you know, result for him to be where he belongs in the Hall of Fame. And so to be there to celebrate them, for them to go in together was really a special weekend for all of us Phoenix Suns. Have you really still, have you still never read seven seconds or less? I haven't. I did an interview with you.

Is it time? Is it time I read it? Ten years ago we sat down for an interview in the Empire. state building. God only knows what you were promoting. I think it was soccer related. And I asked you and I was like flabbergasted that you had not read seven seconds or less by Jack McCallum about an inside account of the 2005-6 Phoenix Suns. And 10 years later, you still have it right. It's time, Steve. It's time. Yeah, maybe it is. I mean, I love Jack and obviously spent a lot of time with him that season and beyond. You know, a guy from

my hometown wrote a book about me, you know, kind of from high school through college. I never read that either. You know, I think it's more about me not feeling comfortable reading about myself than it is about the authors or the material, but maybe it's time to one of these days to pick it up and give it a read. I don't think you could write that book today because it is a very honest portrayal of your team. And one of the reasons it was on my mind is not only because you're coming on the show today, but because of the stuff I talked about before with Kat and Josh Hart and sort of these like issues hovering over, you probably remember this better than anyone. But in that book, which is about the 0506 sons.

I would say Amari does not come off super well. Like there's a lot of questions about how hard he's attacking his rehab. He has a knee injury that year. And there's like this push pull of should we want him back. Is he attacking it hard enough? And Marion, who's one of my all-time favorite players from the outset looking at, I love Sean Marion. He is like throughout the book kind of jealous of you and Amari.

And like he'd count the jerseys that the dance team was wearing. is like, well, there's five Amari and five national, like two, Marion, like, that's not fair. Do you remember, again, as someone who's, like, very much in touch with chemistry and the vibe of the team, do you remember those kinds of things and trying to just wrap, wrap everyone in sort of a hug of like, look, can we put all this aside and just play? Like, do you remember, Sean, being that way? Do you remember Amari, those questions about Amari and just trying to bring it all together? Yeah, you know, yes, but at the same time, none of us are perfect.

And I don't want to misattribute this quote, but there was, I think, a longtime NBA assistant slash head coach that said, when someone was complaining about their team sitting there on the bench, said, hey, never underestimate how fucked up they are, too. So, you know, nobody's perfect. No team is without its issues. It's about overcoming. And sometimes those issues and overcoming them can be what breaks a team from mediocre to good

or good to great. So, yeah, we weren't perfect. All of us had our flaws, as do every team in the league. And those guys were incredible teammates to play with. And, you know, that's just a part of playing in the NBA. It is not just a game anymore. And his business, it's family legacies. It's all sorts of other things that you have to manage

and try to put in the right perspective. And, you know, I think generally we did a really good job of managing all that stuff. And everyone kind of got over it and played and got down to business, just like the next to last year, and I think they will this year. A couple of highlights from that book that I wanted to share with you. First of all, Amari is coming back from injury. And as he's coming back, one of the ways they test him out was they have him play one-on-one against Boris D.L. in practice.

And Eddie House, who's your teammate that year, observes this game and his summation of it. I don't know if anyone has told you about this quote. His summation of it, Boris kicked his ass, and his summation was, Boris brought the French pastry on his ass, which I always thought was a great, a great line. And if you had to guess, what is the number one basketball complaint that coaches lodge about Steve Nash in that book?

What do you think it is? Basketball, not personality. Thankfully, your personality is it gets off Scott Free, but a basketball complaint. Either my defensive liabilities or I don't shoot enough. It's the first one, but it's a specific defensive, It's a specific, I wouldn't even call it a liability. I would call it a decision-making process.

Defensive decision-making process. This could be a long, this could be a podcast, but I mean, I can go in different directions, you know. It could be, don't get hurt. No. It could be, the tricky thing for me was I had a lot of coaches throughout my careers, don't get in foul trouble. dope foul. So I wasn't aggressive enough defensively.

No, you don't have to tell me else we'll be here. Stop helping all over the court and just stay home. You helped too much. Okay, that's good. I can see that. It's been a while, but I can see it being valid, yeah. Big question number four. Who is your preseason MVP pick? Yes, I will make my own pick.

I'm not going to be unfair like that, but I'm making you make a pick. Given he plays enough games, I'm going to say Wemby. Me too. He is my official, Zach Loshow preseason MVP pick. It's obviously a games played question. Fair or not, I think voter fatigue slash foul grifting narrative will work against Shea. Lucas seems to never play enough games, but obviously it's all set up for him.

Yolkich is still there. Yonis games played issue. He's getting a little older. I think Wembe is the safe bet. By the way, speaking of the push-off issue, you and I got to see Moni McCutcheon give us his presentation about they're going to now legislate this or try to legislate that out of the game.

What did you think of that in this general move? The four Fs, remember the four FFs? Yeah, yeah. For firming up, force, feeling, and forceful. Essentially, they're trying to define kind of the gray area in my mind. It's great, you know, great. I still think we're going to get some of these wrong. Like it's not black and white.

It's, you know, how much force, how in front is the defender, how much, like you said, feel and firming and all these things, and hopefully the fans get an understanding of that you and I are probably still developing. But that is a play that I think, yeah, I mean, we can clean that up, we can define it,

we can make that gray area, get down to 55, 45, 45 maybe, where there's that little 10% where we're going to get them, and you think it's one, I think it's the other, but I think it's good to move in that direction. You know, I didn't want to side,

track the Monty's presentation, but I had more kind of thoughts and questions on how physical we can be outside the three-point area on ball handlers, but then not inside versus, and I brought it up, but I didn't want to follow up as how we can really running back, full-back a guy into the stanchion now. And it feels like unless that guy goes down, there's no more dislodge. So we now are looking at the chicken, the arm extended the chicken wing, but if you put your shoulder into a guy, it feels like unless that guy reads it and flops and goes down for a charge, you can just put a guy in the stanchion. And so there's a few areas that, like, and I don't have a problem with them. I just want them to be called what they are. Right now, it's like we've gone

into this new era of what's acceptable, just like the step through. We used to allow that in women's basketball. Now of a sudden, we allow that step through extra step in men's, but we never say, hey, we're allowing that now. We just started. So I'm always kind of wondering, like, what, well, how did we get here? And if you explain how we got here and why, I think, you know, it would make more sense contextually as to where we're going with the game. But sometimes it feels like we evolve into these places of calling the game that I don't know how we got here and why that's now legal.

I have no problem with some of these things being legal, but I'm not sure how and why we got here and they are all of a sudden legal. So sometimes I'd love that clarity, but it just, it's so much. There's so much of the game with the coaches, the players, trying to always find an advantage. and the referees are often one step behind trying to catch up to what players are trying to do to, whether you call it rifting or adapting, you know, the game evolves, players, evolve, coaches evolve, and they're going to always try to get an advantage.

I think it's going to be a little bit of a mess because, frankly, I didn't see the difference between some of the plays that Monty deemed legal and others that he deemed illegal. And there's going to be a lot of flopping as a result. They're obviously going to try to penalize flopping. But, you know, we'll see. By the way, just I can't remember what W game I was watching recently. The rule that I'm actually ready for, and I realize it's a fairly radical solution that could lead you down some radical places. I'm ready for like an ultra harsh penalty on fouling up three.

I just think it ruins the end of some of these games. I hate it. If you take it to its logical extreme, it becomes the I lemending and let's just legislate the fouling out of the game completely at the end of games. I think I hate the fouling up three. And I can't remember which game I was watching that it kind of marred the finish of. But I get the strategy behind it. I would want my coach to do it in a lot of cases if I were just like win at all costs. I think it sucks.

I'm ready for like you get like five free throws if someone fouled you up three. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with taking that out because I would say right now as a coach, I would imagine almost every single coach in the league is going to foul up three. So if you want to change it, I think you've got to change it. And that kind of proves the point. if everyone really is going to foul up three more or less, then maybe we probably need to look at the rule and penalize it.

Yeah, I, roughing is hard, you know, like it is difficult, but some of these rule changes. Like, for example, how about this? We talked in that meeting about shortening the length of games. So how about one free throw to make two?

I disagree with that. Hate it. Hate it. That's silly and changes everything. It's Mickey Mouse to me. However, what about, you know,

and Moni would say, well, you have 10 seconds to shoot. No, you don't. You know, we, and I love Monty. He's great. But we, you know, Yonis has gone over 10 seconds, you know.

So, Tucker, what about when the rough hands the player of the ball? How about this? Ref hands the player of the ball. You have 20 seconds to shoot two. And if anyone gets in the way of it, it's a delay a game. What about my high fives? I got a high five people between the free throws. Go ahead, but you have 20 seconds to shoot the ball. You have 20 seconds to shoot two free throw. So you can fight all you want. Wait a second. You were the coach of the Nets. Wasn't it the Nets who did the, the count, the Yannis countdown on the scoreboard, and you guys got slapped on the wrist for it and told not to do it anymore?

We, I believe we did. No, that wasn't a part of, that was a game ops thing. No, no, no, no. I like the idea that you went. You and Sean Marks got together in like a nefarious layer somewhere in a board room. And we're like, how can we mess with Yonis? I couldn't believe that the league told you not to do it. Because my reaction was, how about the referees tell them to shoot the goddamn free throw within 10 seconds?

that was a weird one, you know, it was, it was a rule. We are based, I guess, you know, the nets in fairness were just augmenting the rule. We're enforcing the rule. And it was outside. So anyways, I just think if you want to speed the game up, we don't need, you know, a minute to take free throws. You get 20, give them a ball. You got 20 seconds. And if you want to high five, you can.

If not, you're not. But like, you can use that 20 seconds how you want. It'll speed the game up, I think. And that's my crazy idea of the day. So when I watch games, I often watch them from behind or on replay. So I'm fast forwarding through free throws. When a normal, when most players get fouled, 30 seconds is what I will fast forward. Three, 10 second hits.

Yeah. Gets me to the second prethrow going on. With the honest, I hit the one minute forward button immediately. And sometimes it's a little too long. And sometimes it's like he still hasn't shot the second free throw. I'm like, what's happening here? All right. Do you want to make a finalist prediction or not?

I haven't made mine official yet. I'm not going to today, but you're here. I don't know if you've already made one. If Amazon's made you make one. I saw you guys have a little you and UD and Dirk and Blake had a little meeting. I know if all of you were there where they wanted you to make predictions and Blake flat out refused to make any. I don't know if you're ready to unveil to the world. I don't know that I'm ready.

You know, obviously I'm thrilled that we have these two incredible teams in the West. I mean, this hopefully is going, obviously, I mean, obviously, I hope there's a third and fourth team. And hopefully it's this year because you name teams. Yolkich and whoever, you know, really push those two teams. But, I mean, I think it's fascinating that we have these two young, incredible teams with great balance, you know, physical, defensive teams that can also score the ball. Like, this is fantastic. So I haven't really put myself in a position to make that claim with any education yet. And I think it's also going to see how the season starts to play out.

What does Chet do this year? How does, you know, the changes that OKC made to the rest of their roster affect them, you know, just some of their guys take. a leap is Jaylon Williams healthy and you go to same thing with the scores you know what leaps does their young cards slash wimby make how's tobias Harris affect their team all those types of things so I'm not going to make a prediction I'm thrilled we have those two teams I hope we have a seven game series again and I hope some teams can push them on the way there and then in the east you know I still still give it to the Knicks I think like you said as far as trust and reliability they've proven that they won the in-season tournament they won the the

NCF, NCAA, they won the NBA finals. When there's something put in front of them, they have a way to go and get it. And so I trust them. But as you know, especially in this modern era, health is everything. So whoever gets to the finish line healthy is going to have the best chance to win.

I am also sticking Knicks coming out of the east. I don't think the extension stuff is going to affect how they play on the court. And I don't trust anybody else. My West pick remains TBD. I lose sleepover every night. I have a lean, but I'm not ready to reveal the lien. Steve Nash, you're the best.

Look for you on Amazon Prime all season long, holding it down with the crew. I'll see you out there some too. Thanks for your time, bud. Thank you. Talk to you soon, Zach. Look who it is! Whoa!

In person! Mets Corner! In New York City! Sean Fennessee is here. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good, man. You're here for some movie stuff. The Mets are not playing anymore.

Nope. Historically, when I come to... to New York for the New York Film Festival. It's usually very well-timed to the postseason. In 2024, we had magical times, and I was able to experience some of that magic in New York City. This year, not so much. That's when I got back into it. You could have arrived early for David Stern's end-of-season press conference. This is just one gem after another. We and I created a potential for an uncapped downside scenario. I've already made all the jokes. He is ruined. I mean, look, he's probably a very nice man who has accomplished more than I will ever accomplish.

And I kind of, like I like to, we're all like head over heels about Jefferson Rojas and the prospects and Mitch Voight, get Marcus Simi and the hell out of here, like the whole thing. Like, he's very good at his job. I do regret to say between his voice, his business school lingo. I have a lot of quarter zips. I like them. I don't think I can wear them anymore. I almost wore a light blue one today as a joke. And I think he's ruined the quarter of it for me.

I don't think I can go back anymore. He's in a really tough spot because he can't pivot the persona now. Like he can't try to change and be more of like a rugged outdoorsy type at this point. Like he is an analytically minded, MBA minded baseball general manager president of baseball operations like that. And that's an archetype that has been very successful in baseball over the last 20 years. He came in with a great track record of building small market teams. And now he is too many fans, enemy number one. It's a tough spot.

I think it's a little unfair. I didn't enjoy the Fire Stearns chant. You have a hot take. You think Pete Alonzo has gone too far with the T-shirt. Just like simmer down. With the T-shirt that says 300 home runs, you're still fiddling with your formulas. You're like, okay, we've- We're good.

We're good. You got your curtain call. at City Field, even that I thought was a little much. We're good. We had one year of angst over the Pete situation. I participated in that angst. Let's go to the next phase. That's how I feel about it.

Does the next phase involve, like, someone playing first base for the Mets next year? Do we have a plan for first base? First of all, Polanco, I want to shoot him into the stratosphere. Jared Young, God bless him. Had a really nice season. There's a place for him on the team next year. Not quite an everyday first base, but pretty damn good. Had that super scary fall concussion at the end of the season.

My daughter and I were watching together. And that was the first time I've seen her like, oh, this is a little scary, daddy. Like, what happened? It was really scary. And it sounds like he's doing better. So shout out Jared Young, like, enjoyed the hell out of the experience. I'm happy to have him on the team. We do need another first baseman.

It cannot be Mark Viantos. And I don't know who it's going to be. I would love for them to identify on the trade market in everyday first basement. It's a little hard watching a handful of guys. Gosh, you know, Thai France for the Padres this year had a really good year, and he was on the market, and you might have said that would have been an interesting by-low candidate. Is he the dude who hit the ceiling? He is.

Munitaka Marakami, obviously. That was a tough one. Has had a really good season in Chicago, not hitting for a lot of average, but he hit 35 home runs. So, like, there's a couple things that seemed like stern-e moves, and he made the Polanco move, and then the Polanco move led to Jared Young, becoming a more significant part of our lives. If we go into the year next year with Jared Young and another platoon player, that's going to be really uninspiring.

I think, though, for like a disastrous season, I feel like I ended up feeling like I'm ready for next season and baseball, don't mess this up. You're going to ruin my family life. Like, just I need 100 games. A hundred games minimum, just representative season. But between the guys tearing up the minor leagues, between Benj, Benj is a super. superstar. Benj is a superstar in the making

2020, like a highlight in the outfield every night. AJ Ewing writing the ship for the last 20 games, hitting for some power. And like, Amick and Petrie and Voight, like, I don't know much about Mitch Voight, but I'm excited about his stats. Jefferson Rojas, like, did we, look, we're not going to get Pete Carr Armstrong, but did we

like reverse? Do we like, can we make our version a bit with the Cubs and even steal Clay Holmes back? This is all? Like, I feel pretty good for a team that has shit year. Well, that's the thing is if, if you're one of those people who comes out and says, I hate David Stearns and I want him to be fired, then you are removing the person who, his primary skill and the thing that he has focused on most organizationally is player development and youthful acquisition. And like that is where he built

his reputation with other teams like the Guardians, like the Brewers. So, you know, the players that we developed this year, Nolan McLean, Carson Benj, Ewing, you can put Zach Thornton in the mix there if you want to. Sure. You can put Nate Lavender. in the mix there if you want to? Yeah, what's the status of my boy, Purple Rain, Nate Lavender, my guy. I mean, he should be in the bullpen next year, shouldn't he? He looked amazing. I got to look at his contract situation, but out of nowhere, like, it was just an automatic

out every time. I mean, you could make the case that he should be the seventh inning guy no matter what, going into next season. So I think Stearns is doing the thing that I suggested to you might be happening on this podcast last December, which is we had a conversation when Edwin Diaz and Pete Alonzo left than 24 hours of each other. And I was like this is a soft rebuild

that is happening. This is a bridge. A Jorge Polanco two-year deal swapping out Brandon Nimo for Marcus Semyon. All of these moves are like deck clearing long-term moves because you've got two massive contracts on the books and otherwise what you want to do is be able to developmentally bring in young players. His mentality

as a team builder is athletic, young bats, guys who are very positionally flexible. And you know, I don't think he intended to have a 75-win season. I think the hope was to win 87 games and get into the playoffs. And things went disastrously wrong. And we've talked about them a lot over the last six months. But I do think weirdly, you could make the case that for 2028, they're right on track.

The problem is we still have 2027 to play. And I have serious doubts about whatever we can be in 2027. I don't know how you feel about that. Well, because we have pieces, but we don't have. have clarity in a couple of places. And so Marcus Simeon still has two years on his deal. Jorge Polanco still has another year on his deal.

Kodai Senga has another year on his deal. Sean Manaya has another year on his deal. First of all, Kodasanga, I have to stop you for a second. This has been bugging me for a long time. You don't get an entrance song, Kodai Senga, as the closer because you can't do any other job

competently enough. This is the one that's left to you. So he chose Beat It as his entrance song? Nope. We're just not going to do it. What's your entrance? song when you're closing for the Mets. I mean, enter Sandman is untouchable.

Like, I don't even feel like an answer to that question is, is I can't even, no one that will ever top that. I don't even want. How about nothing? How about just nothing? Silence.

Wow. Silence. And they put like a tombstone on the JumboTron. What about just the Undertaker bell? You know, the gun, it's close to Hells Bells, which fucking don't even get me started

on Ryan Helsley stealing Hells hells bells from Trevor Hoffman. But, no, you don't get an entrance. song and he's like, you know what else I'm sick of? I'm sick of him and his through his interpreter, just constantly putting little breadcrumbs like, I want to be a starter.

I want to be a starter. I'm not, like he's not super psyched with the quick. You know, you know, I would love you to be a starter. Get some outs. Then you can be a starter again. I don't think he'll be a starter next year. Well, then stop talking about it and get your no entrance song and move on. I know. I appreciated that he went into the bullpen

and, you know, he had some ups and downs, but he was pretty good, right? He was pretty good in the bullpen at the end of the season. I just don't think, I think this leads to the Tark Scoobble conversation. Well, yeah, this is like the, I believe in Christian Scott, who my daughter loves Christian Scott. I don't know what it is about him, but she's all in. I believe in Thornton, but I believe in them is like fourth and fifth starters who eat some innings and are like pretty solid. I think Scott could be a three.

If he continues to develop. And if we get to the end of the season and they have like a three nine ERA and they've done okay, fine. I don't know if I believe in it more than that. And obviously, we all believe in McLean. We do not believe in Mania at this point. The sixth inning and on thing was like a disaster. It was. So yeah, they've got to rebuild the bullpen,

but most importantly, they need to have a guy or two in the starting rotation where I feel confident. You know who would be great? The Freddie Peralta, who's been pitching for the Tampa Bay Raysville last month and a half. Yeah.

Well, okay, I'm the twigs in between on that, right? Obviously, it's upsetting to watch him completely turn it around. He'll be starting tonight for the... Go raise, baby. Go raise. We'll see how he does. He has still mostly been pitching five and six things.

Because I'm cheering for Tampa Bay because I would cheer for anyone against Yanke. He's going to shit the bed tonight. I'm going to call it right now. It's probably true. It's 12.20 p.m. He's shit the bed for the Mets. He's going to shit the bed tonight. It's going to be one one.

It's Schlittler, right? That's who he's pacing off against two. And he's an animal. That guy is just. He's a beast. He's the best pitcher in baseball. He's so good. Yeah.

And he just looks like he can hold up forever. He's big. He's strong. I know. I know. It's hard to be not having that right now. McLean's an animal. We'll be all right. But the Freddie thing, even if that had worked out, let's play it out. Let's say he pitched to a three ERA this year and he was good, but he was still doing the thing he does, five-inning Freddie.

Would you want to extend him for eight years and $250 million? No, no. Like, I wouldn't want to do that. So maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Would they get for him? Did we get anyone good for him? Yes, we did. I think we might have gotten two players.

Was Emilian Petrie? I think he might be in that true. A million Petrie was the piece who came over. They have this weird thing now where the Mets have three to four second base prospects. And they're going to have to figure out who is going to go where between Rojas and Petri and Voit who they drafted themselves. So,

yeah, it's Freddie. Well, we got Gary Gillhill in that trade, too. People are high on him. Yes, and he has a great name that you love to say. G. G.G.H. Gary Gilhill. Gary Gill Hill. On takes the hill. But I mean, do you want to give Tarks, Google, $800 million? That's the question. question.

That's what they're, and that is like, Stearns was nudged about that in that press conference that you said. Ambivalent. Ambivalent response. Knows we need pitching, knows we need a frontline pitching pitcher. I think he would prefer plural and maybe less good than Tarek Scoubel, but like

very good two or three guys. Sure, great. Anytime you can get less good, you got to get less good. Let's go, first of all, how are we liking the baseball playoff so far? We're watching the low household. We've got it on in the background. I've extended bedtime a couple of times. It's been a controversial decision.

Yeah, I mean, I've been on the road, so I haven't been able to engage as much as I normally would, but the baseball playoffs rock now. I think they're too long, and a lot of teams get in, they probably shouldn't get in. But when you look at the last couple of Brewers' Padres games, I mean, that's just, it's been electrifying. My freshman year roommate in college is from San Diego. Shout out, John. Huge Padres fan.

And we are old enough so that in our one room double in school, I would be on my computer and he would be on his computer refreshing Netscape windows of he had the Padres game. I had the Mets game of like, but we didn't have access to like watch the games. It was just a pitch by pitch. Yeah. And I'm just gutted. Like gutted when they made the World Series in 1998, it was one of the happiest moments of his life. Then the umpires conspired to give Tino Martinez infinite amount of strikes and the whole thing went

to shit. And I mean, like you can't lose two more painful games than that for a team that's never won the World Series. They're kind of Mets West, right? I mean, that's where they've never won a World Series. They've been, they've had some really, really, really frustrating games go against them over the years. Game one of that series with the Thai France ball off the roof is. Couldn't tell what was going to happen.

Could have gone foul. Off the bat, if you froze it, if you froze it like when it when it's just off the bat, like the initial you're looking at him at like the batter cam, I would have guessed it would have gone foul. Yeah. But it had a really weird trajectory where it just like went up and maybe not foul. know. It's hard to know what would have happened, but not knowing is almost more painful. So that sucked. And then, you know, Mason Miller is the best closer in the universe and went up against Jackson Churio, who's one of the two or three most exciting young hitters in the game.

And yeah, he lost. Speaking of great closer walkouts, he has the best right now to the corn song, Mason Miller. But that was that was demystified a bit last night. I mean, he really, he did blow that game. We should also mention that among all the Mets people that traded away or left, Pete's gotten a lot of publicity. Peralta's gotten a lot of publicity back and forth. Clay Holmes was okay, very good for Chicago, depending on the night. Huge mistake for them to not start him in the previous series. Strange. Edwin Diaz has now had three or four straight scoreless appearances, including one of the playoffs.

But, you know, like, I don't know if it's a feather in Cerns' his cap, but that three-year, $60 million contract would look pretty crappy. It would. But that is so Dodgers, though, for a huge contract player to have a disastrous regular season and sit out half the season and then come back in the playoffs and be wildly effective. I mean, that has happened for them with a handful of these big, you know, Blake Snell, Tyler Glass now, like a bunch of these guys who get injured or have to be shut down and then they come back in the playoffs and they look like the a ACEs that they are. It might happen with Kyle Tucker, too. I saw you hit home run the other day. By the way, speaking of Mason Miller, I just looked up his playoff stats because I'm not familiar with Mason Miller's. career or work other than I know he's awesome and the Mets like sniffed around maybe trading for him.

It just goes back to my, I don't even, I'm not educated enough to make this take, but in my peak baseball fandom years, I thought the single most valuable player in the world was Mariano Rivera because he was just an automatic win save in the playoffs until 2004. And all these other closers who would be awesome in the regular season like Trevor Hoffman gets in the World Series, blows a save. Like forget Armando Benitez who would like, you just like, I. I couldn't trust that guy to save his life. Mason Miller, this is his second postseason, postseason ever.

I think he has four total appearances. Like, you got to win that game. Like, their season is now over. They're not going to win three games in a row. Yeah, I mean, they asked him to pitch two innings. I mean, that's really the thing. That's Mariano Rivera would do that all the time. That's very true.

I know we're just in a different era where that's more uncommon and in a high leverage spot like that. He just couldn't do it. I've never been more scared of an athlete than Mariano Rivera. because it infected your experience of the entire game. If you were behind three to two in the third inning, you already started thinking about like, we got to get the lead. We got to tie this game because this guy's like looming.

I don't know if there's any closer in the sport right now that has that reputation. And I'm not sure, it's mostly because closers are not managed in that same way. And there's sometimes, you know, one of the best things I thought that that Buck Showalter would do with Edwin Diaz was he would frequently pitch him in the six or seven things. But this is what got maddingly, all the bad pub in Philadelphia, when he brought Duren in or whatever his name is in the seventh,

to face the best hitters on who were they playing? The Braves. The Braves, yeah. I thought all the analytics, like when Rob Nyer was writing columns 25 years ago, he still is, was like, that's how you should use your, I thought that was how the smart teams should use their closer. Same concede as you should hit your best fitter, you should put your best hitter first in the lineup because you want them to have the most of bats.

Every time I watch a team that I don't know very well, like I'm doing now in the playoffs, and they lead off with a guy who has, like, 35 home runs. And I'm like, man, baseball has really changed a lot. Like, it's, it can't. And I feel it more because I was out for so long. So this probably happened gradually. But when we were kids, that guy hit cleanup.

Like, there was no third or fourth that was, like, where you hit. And now it's a badge of honor to hit first. You're like a power hiter. Like, all I wanted from my leadoff guy was get on base and be fast. Yeah, you're, it's so funny because you listen to people who talk about the Mets and they're already citing what the, what the one, two, three, four will be next year. And it's like very clearly Lindor, Soto, Bichette, and Benj. Benj.

Benj would have been the leadoff hitter for this team easily. I mean, maybe AJ Ewing might have been long term, but he would have easily been in 1997. And now he's considered their best option of cleanup hitter. Should we go through some players and do you want them on the team next year? Yeah, that's a good game. Simeon, no. I don't even care. It doesn't matter.

Let me just get it out right now. Okay. I understand the Brandon Nimmo trade. I would not have won Brandon Nimmo on the team for five more years. And I understand making room for outfielders because we had two really exciting prospects. And I understand getting off that contract long term intellectually. But what I don't understand is why Marcus Simeon had 600 at bats. Why Ronnie Maricio was not on the major league team.

Oh, we didn't talk about this, how Keith Hernandez actually lost it in the last game. of the season when he was like, we have mismanaged. Yes. Misused and whatever it was. That was like, that was, I mean, the Mets broadcasters are the gold standard. They, like all broadcasters want to see the happy picture. But like that was a big, big shot for Keith to me. Keith is firmly in the like, I don't give a fuck mode of his career.

As he should be. And it makes him a great broadcaster. And he was right. Literally, Marcus Simeon was one of the five or six worst position players in the sport all year. And in the first half of the year, his defense wasn't very good. So the whole idea for plugging him in there, I don't know, that just seemed in a lost season, and a year where it was very clear you were not even going to cross 80 wins. To keep giving him at bats, I can't make sense of it.

And are we out of options with Horatio and we are. They basically both have to make the team next year. Yeah, and to me, Beatty is, we can get to that. Bady redeemed himself. Let's do Bady. Bady. I mean, I'm back in on Bady. It's like a fine, I just have to temper my expectations.

Yeah, he's a utility player. He's a guy who plays three or four different positions on the field. He doesn't play every day. But he's in a jam, in a long season. He's a very useful player. If you're thinking of him as the second baseman or third baseman of the future, you shouldn't because he's not that guy. I will say my daughter was, I think, outrage when he played shortstop

because she viewed it as an imminent threat to Francisco Lendor. And I was like, I don't think you have to worry about Brett Brady playing a lot of short stuff. But you do have to start getting your mind wrapped around like Francisco Lendor's getting old. and his career and positionality is going to change a little bit. Like she was very proud of his 300th home run on the last day of the season and the very short list of players who have done that at shortstop, which of course includes Arod who has like twice as many home runs at other positions. And she's very, she wants Lindor to be number one on that list. Is he, was he the only guy with 300 home runs and 200 stolen bases at shortstop?

Yes, Carlos Beltran has that as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's a complicated thing. Lindor's defense was bad this year. There's no two ways about it. And it was bad in the weirdest ways. Mental mistakes, things that he never did before.

He was an elite defensive shortstop when he came to the team. He's probably a second baseman long time. Fine. Great. But all of our best prospects are second baseman. Well, we just got to figure it out. Well, I thought Rojas can play a little of everything. I'm hoping he's going to be a third baseman. Because he's got power.

He's got pop. I don't know what his arm is like. Beatia, I think he should come back. Maricio, I would love for him to come back, but there's not really a place for him. Yeah, I don't know. But when he, I mean, that last week you don't want to read too much into it, but he just comes up and starts mashing home runs every game. I want both the catchers back on the team next year.

I just can't quit Francisco Alvarez, as frustrating as he is, just waving at everything within five feet of the strike zone. And also, a couple of the worst ABS challenges like I've ever seen, like, I'm talking, this is like a foot out of the strike zone. What are you doing, man? And he's just like, bam, I'm ready. And like, okay, we're, that's it. We lost our challenge.

I'm hopeful that the coaching staff will be able to get through to him in the offseason about a couple of those things because it was ugly at the end of the season for Alvarez. He had a fine last three or four games, but there was a 10 or 12 game stretch there where he was lost at the plate making a lot of mistakes. There were wild pitches that should have been called past balls. Like he was sure. He was all over the place. And that was sad.

On the other hand, former number one overall prospect who's 23, 24 years old. A catcher with pop. Look, long term, this is going to be tricky. Torenz is really good. He's maybe the best defensive catcher in baseball. Alvarez is not a good enough hitter to DH. We don't need to make this decision now. I know.

There's this weird thing, though, Zach, where you keep, like, settling and accepting flawed players in your lineup. And we can do this with more names on this list. And then you wake up one day and you're like, so I feel kind of iffy about seven of our nine hitters every day. And, like, we might be going into that next year. Who else you feel iffy about is a hitter? I don't know what Bobichette is.

I'm optimistic about it. I just, I believe the track record. I think he like was a little overrated and clearly overpaid. I just like I'm a sucker for the type. Like I, you know, in an analytics world of on base guys and power guys, I like that he's just going to, now he needs to make better contact and get more doubles and all that. But I like that he's just a, like a hit. Just he's going to get hits.

He could be a huge. bounce back candidate and have a 190 hit season, that's totally possible. It's also possible he's just in a different phase of his career. And if he is, that sucks for us. So do I'm not worried about? Lindor, I think we should be mindful of offensive progression. I think he's going to be a 33-year-old shortstop. He's so streaky.

Like, even when he, the last time we did this, talking about he's all the way back, he's at 299 home runs, and then he just goes into these two-week periods where he just cannot get a hit, and he strikes out a lot. I know he walked a lot, which helped sort of have the floor pretty high, but he's very streaky. I think he was much worse this year from the left side of the plate than he was the right side. But a few years ago, he'd been much worse from the right side of the plate than the left side.

So he's even streaky in that respect where there's no consistency in his switch hitting. Can we talk about how you are digesting the Braves Dodger series? Do you, can you root? I like to have a team that I root for in every series. So I'm rooting for the brewers. Real Godzilla versus Guita situation. I'm rooting for the Guardians just because they haven't won in forever. Obviously, I'm rooting for Tampa Bay.

This one's tough. Do you have a rooting interest? I hope they all contract a terrible illness. You know, like, I really just, you know, I just, I don't want any of them. This is the joke in our house. So when Argentina played England in the semifinals of the World Cup, Croatia, England have played a lot. There was a recent 7-0 game, which we were not going to talk about.

And Argentina was like everybody was, like, like sick of Argentina's antics. Yes. And so when they played, Mada was like, my daughter was like, who are you rooting for? And I was like, whew, and this is how, this is exactly how what I've repeated about Dodgers Braves. I said, I think I'm rooting for everyone to get diarrhea on the field and for them to have to cancel the game and just promote somebody else into the next round.

So in this case, everybody on the Braves and the Dodgers gets diarrhea that lasts for like 10 days. They can't play the series. And so what happens in this case is Milwaukee and San Diego. go play out their series. And the winner gets home field advantage is they have a rematch for the National League Championship series because the Braves and the Dodgers are disqualified due to diarrhea. And the winner of that series gets either five or six games at home.

That's their reward in the rematch. So it's funny that you said contractuals because that's exactly how I feel. I think that would be ideal. You know, I don't really want either of them to win. I'm rooting for the Brewers. I think it'd be nice that the Padres won that series, but it seems very unlikely at this point. And so the Brewers are an easy team to root for. And, you know, the Braves are my mortal enemy forever.

And the Dodgers, I mean, look, if the Dodgers win, if they win the World Series this year, I think it makes the likelihood of a longer-term lockout baseball stoppage more likely. And that's, I don't want that. I have enjoyed teaching my daughter a little bit about Mets history and baseball history. So she obviously not familiar with the Braves rivalry and is vaguely familiar that there's like a Phillies thing that teams don't like each other.

And so Dodger is Braves to her is like a no-brainer. She knows the Dodgers are bad. We should not cheer for the Dodgers or whatever. And I'm like, honey, like we're going to have to sit down and have this discussion about the Braves and Tom Glavin and Greg Maddox and John Rocker and like all the Chipper Jones name.

I told her about Chipper Jones naming his son, Shea because he was so successful in Shea Stadium, which is like I almost respect. It's a great bit. It's a good bit. I like great bit. And I think I told you this, when we went to the peak game, we got there early. And we were walking around City Field and they have those plaques memorializing, like, critical moments in Mets history.

And I don't think she was going to be interested in, like, 1969 and 1986. We stopped it every single one. And she was like, tell me more about this. I want to know more about this. Like, who's this guy, Jesse Arrasco's, like, posters about the 1986. Yeah. And the one that she was most fascinated about and she's been telling her friends about it

is like the black cat game. She just couldn't get over the black cat game. And just the cubs and it jinxed them and where did this cat come from? It's been delightful. So I've been teaching her about the Braves and why I hate the Braves. By the way, she should know.

Can't believe the tomahawk chop is still happening. I just made this comment on a pod. Literally, I'm like, wow. I just was talking about this on a big picture episode where I'm just like, we're still doing this in 2026. Come on. Andy Green back. We're happy about that.

I am. I like them. It seemed to be fine. I don't know. I don't know what a manager really does other than put people in the lineup and make pitching changes. Can you give me like a minute to talk about football?

It's related to baseball. Yeah, absolutely. I have no idea what's going on at football. So something happened with the Jets this year that is very similar to what happened with the Mets where I think there was a really strong case to move on from Carlos Mendoza after the 2025 season, given the way that that season ended.

and what they did is they fired his whole staff, but they brought him back with a new staff, and he got off to a really bad start. And then they let him hang around through the summer. And other teams that fired their managers earlier in the year eventually turned it around, like the Boston Red Sox, the Philadelphia Phillies, and they went to the playoffs.

I don't know if the Mets were going to go to the playoffs if they had fired Carlos Mendoza after the 12-game losing streak, but you can make the case for it. The exact same thing has happened with Jets, where Aaron Glenn, after his first season, went 4 and 13, it's very clear. he's not an NFL head coach.

He's been really bad. After that 4 and 13 season, they fired all of his coaches. He brought in an entirely new staff, and they brought him back. The Jets are more talented, but they're one and three, and Aaron Glenn looks way in over his head.

And they're probably going to let him manage or coach the team through most of the season. And it's one of those really frustrating situations where every single fan knows a person is not the guy. And it's like Carlos Mendoza seemed like a very nice guy. And he did have that amazing run in 2024, and he gets a lot of credit for it. But in every postgame press conference,

a lot of the same tired, like, we got to take a look at it. We got to be better tomorrow. We got to keep our heads up. The same sort of like false inspirational language. And as soon as Andy Green came in, I just felt like he was talking more honestly, more directly, more coherently about what was going on.

You love to hear him challenging young pitching and love to hear him thinking more dynamically about how the team should be playing. And they played a little better. I think it's a little overrated how much better they played. Yeah, they were like three games over 500. Yeah, they were like a borderline 500, which is like awesome. But we would, it's fine.

I would have taken that obviously for the whole season. And they were more fun to watch. That final month or so was just much more fun to watch than the first three months of the season. So, but I do like him or at least I like the way that he communicates with the press and the public, which is a big part of being a manager in New York. And I think the young guys really like him. And the truth is is that the future of the team is in the young guys.

It's Benj and it's Ewing and hopefully it's Rojas and hopefully it's Petri and, you know, I don't know if Billy Amick's going to be here, Nick Moravito or any of those guys. But those guys, a lot of those guys in the system, they know him. And so I am generally happy that they extended him. Yeah, by game nine of the completely inexplicable 12-game losing streak, I wanted the manager to be acknowledging that this is a crisis. Yes. Speaking of Benj, I have two stories, and then we'll wrap up.

I had made my decision that Carson Benj is going to be my next and first new Met jersey purchase. And I want a road gray jersey. Sean, you could not get a road gray Carson Ben's jersey. I went to Fanatic's official shop. I went to MLB. I don't want to order it from like some knockoff website where I don't even know what it is. You got to contact the Mets directly. I did.

I did indeed. I was like, hey, am I being stupid? Because I went to every official outlet and all I can see is home pinstripes Benz. I want road gray. I have every other jersey that I want. I want road gray. You're like, no, you're not being stupid. It's not available.

The only places it's available are you can go to City Field and they will customize any jersey for you. Okay. Is City Field open right now? That's a good question. I don't even know if I can go to City. Should we go right now? Sure.

Or if you go to there, and they directed me to this, if you go to like the official Mets merchandise website, the very, very bottom where you would see like contact us about us, just shit you'll never click on. There's a little link that says like, request a product that brings you to a form where you put your name, your address, and they promise on the form, like, we're not, this is like not a guaranteed thing that we're going to fulfill this order for you. I assume this is where people can go to, like, do crazy stuff. Okay. So I just like,

road gray, Carson, Benj, that's it. I haven't heard back. It's been about a week. I don't know, I don't know if this form. You're making it public here. I told David Sims, our friend. Yeah. And he's his, and I told you in his text, which I really made me laugh was like, this feels like something that needs to be elevated to the commissioner's office. And I was like, it kind of does. David has a Ben's jersey. I think he has white pinstripe. Yeah.

You know what? That's the only one you can get. Yeah. If you want a gray road, Mark Viantos jersey, available. I'm good. Second thing, the power of sports and baseball. I want to tell you the story. Wait, hold on, hold on.

Before we do that really quickly, we have not learned who the rookie of the year is. Oh, my God. Well, Carson Ben should be. I'm passionate about it. So, you know, this is like, this is the ultimate Zach Lowe conversation. When does it come out? I think it's going to be, is it at the conclusion of the championship series? So it's him and his first baseman from Cincinnati.

Sal Stewart. And Weatherholt. And J.J. Weatherholt and the Cardinals, who was injured in the final month of the season. And Nolan McLean, who I don't get why he's just like not a can't. Do pitchers just not get this award? They have before. I think it's really strange that he's not in the top three right now. You know, by many metrics, either Weatherholt or Benj should be the winner based

on war, based on a few other things, based on the fact that their games are more well-rounded than South Stewart. South Stewart has big round numbers, 30 home runs, 100 RBI. And South Stewart is, I think right now, the significant betting favorite. But there seems to be amongst a certain quartile of the thinking baseball fan community. It should obviously be bench, especially because of the way that he closed the season versus the way that Sal Stewart closed the season, which was quite bad. He had a very bad last month.

Did see, I didn't know that. He did. Like, I look at their advanced numbers and their regular numbers, and I'm like, boy, it's like, and I know that Benj's war is like two and a half times. It's twice, yeah. His war, which I assume takes defense and base running somehow into account. It does. Like, man, I can't believe, like, a guy, 32 homers, 111 RBI, 787 OPS,

which was probably mid-eighths or low-eighths before this month. That's what happened. This hellish month. When he was at 840, the case seemed pretty understandable. and then I think he only hit one home run in the last month of the season and added like a sub-700 OPS that month. And I'm like that Carson Benj is just like, by some advanced metrics, just like way better than that player.

I must not really understand the underpinnings of the advanced metrics. Base running and fielding just matters a lot. And also that at first base, if you're a poor defensive player at first base and those are your power numbers, you're a little bit closer to the median than someone like Benj with his numbers in right field and relative to, you know, I mean,

I don't even know how many outfield putouts he had for the year, but it was, I think it was like 10? The outfit was six, he was double digits, and he was like third in baseball, I think. Yeah, so you've got these, like, pretty significant game changing that dramatically contributes to war. He's amazing.

I'm all in, he does everything well. He plays super hard right up until the end, this is what won you over to you text me to him. He was gone super hard all the way to one day. Busting it on every ground out. And it would be really, just a nice little feather in the cap.

Just give us a little something. Well, and the other thing that you get, you get an extra draft pick. These goofy rules, I love so, like, give us an extra draft pick. I'll take it and give our scouts an extra pick. We'd like to have that right now, wouldn't we? We would. All right, that's what we need.

Metz Corner. We'll be back at some point. Wait, what's your story? Oh, I forgot about that. So, just like, this was a little heartwarming dad's story. Please. Month or two ago, we belonged to this little swim club in Connecticut. It's not fancier.

There's no golfers, no tennis. It's just pools and whatever. And my daughter's a million of friends there. And we're all hanging out there. And then a birthday party happens. Now, my daughter's not friends with the birthday girl, but the other friends are. And she's the only one at the club not invited to the birthday party.

And so, like, she's like, Daddy, I know I'm not friends with so-and-so. But, you know, then she's like, you're always a little sad. Kids get left out and they're sad. And, like, now there's nothing for her to do at the pool. She's bored and cranky. And we go home. I was like, you want to just leave. We'll go home.

We'll do something. We'll play Mario Kart. We'll pass the time. She had something else out for him. But being left out is tough. even though she was aware, like, I would not invite this person to my birthday party. Like, we're just not friends. No, nothing bad.

Just not friends. And it turns out the Mets are on. So, like, all right, let's watch the Mets. And they're playing either Milwaukee or Tampa Bay. You'll remember the game. I can't remember. And it's an exciting game. It's 2-1.

She's into it. Her move is improving. It's late in the game. It looks like the Mets are going to lose. I think it was the bottom of the eighth. And she's starting to like, we're running out of outs. I was like, another Mets loss. Lindor gets on, I think he's on second.

They intentionally walk Soto to get to Bichette. And I tell her, I'm like, this is a really interesting moment in baseball because it's kind of a shot at Bichette. It's the other team saying, like, we'd much rather face you than this other guy, which obviously you would. And Bichette cranks the three-run home into left center field. And the look of glee on her face, she looked over to me like, that's what they get, Daddy. That's what they get for doing that. back to Boba Chet. And then she was like, Daddy, I love how baseball, like, things can change really fast.

That's right. Like, we were about to lose and now we're probably about to win. And her whole day turned around because of Boba Shet hitting a three-run home run after getting intentionally walked. It was, I just think the glee in her face, the only other time I've ever seen it quite like that was when she won her first ever swim race, the first race she ever got first place in. And she found us in the crowd and was just like so proud and stared out. at us. And the other time was when Croatia scored an equalizer against Portugal that two minutes

later was wiped out because of a bogus off sides call. So it was just thank you baseball and bobbishet. That's all. That's beautiful. Metz Corner. We'll be back. Something will happen. Things will happen. Hopefully we don't mess things up. Sean Fantasy, big picture. You're recording in like 10 minutes. You got to go. I got to go. Thank you. Thanks, Zach. Good seeing you in person. All right. That's it for the Zach Lowe show. We'll be back probably Thursday this week for our second episode of the week. Thank you to the great Steve Nash. Thank you to the great Sean Fennacy. Thank you, as always to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you all for listening to and or watching.

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