The Zach Lowe Show - NBA Finals Are Here! All the Info You Need from Podcast Row

Episode Date: June 3, 2026

Zach is joined by a lineup of special guests to preview the NBA Finals, relive their favorite playoff moments, and settle a long-running beef once and for all. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show!(01:33) Gary Payton joins the show(04:44) Facing the Bulls in the Finals(06:30) Being involved with the future Seattle franchise(14:43) Tim Legler joins the show(20:19) Expectations for the Knicks offense(23:50) X-factors in the Finals(29:57) Robert Horry joins the show(36:48) Horry's time with the Lakers(42:37) Does Horry belong in the Hall of Fame?(47:12) Ian Begley joins the show(54:56) Could the Knicks be here with Tom Thibodeau?(58:16) The lowlights of Knicks(01:01:13) DeAndre Jordan joins the show(01:06:13) Clarifying the kidnapping story(01:11:35) How long will the series go? Host: Zach LoweGuests: Gary Payton, Tim Legler, Robert Horry, Ian Begley, and DeAndre JordanProducers: Jonathan Frias and Michael SzokoliSocial: Keith Fujimoto and Michael Szokoli The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, Not your normal episode. We are here in San Antonio at the NBA finals. We're at the arena. They're setting up the t-shirts. The Jumbotron is on the court.

I don't think it's supposed to be there. And we have a pulpery of guests for the NBA's first ever podcast row. Their answer to the NFL's Radio Row at the Super Bowl, I guess. We got Ian Begley and Tim Legler to go X's and O's on the finals and the Knicks and all the things about this series. And then we have some luminaries from NBA, past, present, and future talking about this series. telling stories about their time in the NBA, their times in the finals. Gary Payton, legendary Seattle Supersonic

and Champion with the Miami Heat has some good stories about that and the Lakers. We got Big Shot Bob, big shot Robert. He's going to tell us which one is actually right. Robert Orie is here to tell a lot of great stories and pick this series. And then DeAndre Jordan and I, we have a ceremonial burying of a certain hatchet

that we will get into. And then we talk about DJ's career, the Clippers, the Nets, the Knicks. where Kyrie, Katie, and DJ really going to go to the Knicks? He answers that question. We get into all of that and more, including deep dives on this incredible Nick Spurs finals with Tim Legler, Ian Begley. That's all coming up next on a special Finals, San Antonio podcast Row edition of the Zach Lowe show.

Five from what they're apparently calling podcast Row at the NBA Finals in San Antonio, one of the all-time great Hall of Famer, one of the all-time great defensive players, a formative character in my end. NBA upbringing. Gary Payton, how are you? Good, I'm good, good, how are you? You ready to be at the finals? I'm always ready to be at the finals. This is going to be a great situation, great moment. Two great teams, I think,

young team, one young team and one in the middle, so I'm going to see what happens. Defense player of the year, one of the best defenders of all time, the two main offensive cogs on these two teams could not be any more different than they are. If you had to switch on to Victor Wembeyanama, what would you prime Gary Payton do

to try to guard him on a switch? Well, what I would do is I would just try to keep him on the perimeter. You got to keep him out there and try to make him dribble with basketball, and I'd try to steal a basketball, make him uncomfortable. You know, and I think that until he gets a bigger size and stature and can push me down, I would be underneath him a lot. I would try to make him uncomfortable and try to steal a ball, hit at his hands and do things like that and just keep him on the perimeter.

Was there anyone on the flip side, who from your time, was like, if anybody, most similar to Jalen Brunson in terms of trying to time up their footwork, old school game. I mean, you guarded a lot of great guards. You had playoff battles with John Stockton over and over again. Is there anyone that Brunson reminds you of? And what are the challenges of guarding him? You know, John was the best to me ever.

But I think Nick Vaganasso reminds me of Bronson a lot, you know, because they both are lefties. They both can get to where they want to get and score the basketball. But Bronson is in a different era. We can hand check. We can be more physical. you know, and then it wasn't a lot of doubling.

It wasn't a lot of zones. We could take him back on the other end of the floor and punish him and make him play defense instead of just letting us be on offense and be always the target. You got to have him to be the target and wearing him down a little bit. And that's what I would have did to him.

And that's why it was great for me because when somebody went at me, I can go back at them. I can call my own playing ice on him and then make him play. And then if people come and I can see them, I can dish it and get it to my guys. But I think Nick Van Ellsen was just like Bronson day ago.

They could shoot the mid-range. I think Nick shoot the three a little bit better than he did. But I'm just saying he is right there. His mid-range game, once he gets you into that spot, he's just like, Shea, they're deadly from the free throw line in. But, you know, a lot of pushing off has been happening. Yeah, what do you think of that? What do you think of the pushing off?

That's a bit of big debate in the last six months. Yeah, I don't like it because it doesn't get a defender opportunity. to guard anybody. He always give the offensive player the most advantage when he's pushing off and putting you off balance. I think you should let him play with a heads up. We wouldn't have let that happen because I think of our hand-checking rule

and we would have kept our hand on their hip. And if they were to pushed off, they can see us getting pushed off on the upper chest. But they're seeing now when you go down and you wear your shoulder and extend, that's a legal play. But I don't think it's good for the defender because he can't guard that.

All right, let's talk finals, playoff history, Gary Payton. 96 finals, Sonics, Bulls. The famous stories that midway through the series, I think you're already down 3-0, maybe. You go to George Carr and you're like, hey, man, it's about freaking time. Just let me guard Michael. So what do you remember from that conversation? And had you asked already before the series even started? Like, no, man, game one, put me on Michael Jordan, and I want to do it.

Yeah, that was it. I had one defensive player at a year. And he was an office guy at the NBA. So I had, I wanted to do that, but I was hurt. And he didn't want to, he didn't want to exalt me, exert me, and then make me, doesn't have no offense for us because I was our offensive guy too with Sean. So he didn't want to do that and run and wear me down. So when the time came in game three, I told him no, I went into, right when we were on a plane

and I said, I don't care what you say, I'm guarding him from now on. No matter who you decide me to, I'm taking him. I'm taking him. I don't care who you sign him to. I'm taking him. And then it changed for us in the next two games, and we made it a series. But, you know, I should have guard him in the game one, and hopefully I wish it would have been different,

but we can't go in the time capsule and go back. Are you still in touch with Sean Kemp? I can close my eyes and see the left side pick and roll, Gary Payton, Sean Kemp. Are you guys still close? Every day. I talk to him every day. I talk to him every day.

It's about my phone call with him in a minute. So I talked to him yesterday. I talk to Sean, him and Detliff, I talk to a lot. We're best friends. Like, I go see Deliff in Palm Spring, where he's at right now, and Sean is in Seattle. I'll see Sean Friday. We're together Friday in Seattle. So I'm with them too a lot.

So the city of Seattle still, like, means something to you personally. Absolutely. When that team comes back, do you want to be involved with it somehow? It's going to be a big involved with the team. It's going to be a big involvement with us. The group that's trying to get it, they're very involved with us. us and we're very involved with them. We want to make it successful.

We should have never lost it. We shouldn't have never lost it to Supersonics, but it is what it is. NBA and Adam Silver has gave us an opportunity to get it back, and now we're going to make it very, very good. I was going to ask you, if the Thunder are not here, the Spurs are here, but I was going to ask you either way, like, as a Seattle guy, do you hold some hostility? Have you gotten over it? Like, how do you perceive the thunder?

I hold hostility against a guy who took it away from us in Howard Shoots. I hold him accountable for that. And I don't have nothing against Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City did what they were supposed to. Bennett went and took the team to his hometown and did it. Who cares? We shouldn't have never lost it because of our bad ownership that we had. And that's what it was.

So I'm just saying it's great now that we got it back. It's been 19 years and it's going to be great for them to come back. and when they do come back, we're going to be a big part of it. A lot of us old school guys that was there and made it happen, we're going to try to make it happen again. So you get a title with the Heat in 2006, but before that, the team that everyone thought you were going to get your title with, with the 2004 Lakers.

So I went back and watched a little bit. I forgot you threw the in-bounds pass to Derek Fisher on the point-four shot. Here. Here. What do you remember about the play call? Was he the first option? Like, when did you decide? What are you looking for when you decide? well, he's the guy I got to go to.

I mean, it's not like a crazy daring pass, but it's a read you got to make it. I forgot you had thrown it. Well, you know, when we went in the huddle and Phil was there, Phil was drawing the play up to Kobe. And they was already reacting to Kobe. And you remember Kobe had made a big shot. He had to make a big one, big shot to turn around

and hit one to beat them earlier in a series. And I knew they were going to look for him. And I just told Fish. I said, Fish, just run to play, man, because they're going to forget about you. And that was it. And I just made a decision. I just said that's why Phil had me taking the ball out

because he was very confident in me and had a lot of trust in me to make the right decision. And when I made a decision and we went back to the locker room, he said, you define me again. You know, never listen to me. I said, well, Phil, look what happened. We run. You know, and he was wide open and they was looking for Kobe

and Fish made a big shot. That was a tumultuous year for the, though, for you. Have you read Phil's book about that season? I have. I have. Phil, Phil, he tells what's on his mind and he does everything. And we had a, we had a, we had a heck of a year. But it was a, it was a learning experience for me. And the reason I like it is because I got to know Kobe better than anybody. And I got to know him in a different way. And I miss him a lot. We were getting very close. He started to be close with my son, Gary, who's playing in the NBA now.

I'm aware of, I'm aware of. So it's like I got to meet a guy that people misunderstood. He was just a competitor. He was a basketball player and he did things. Shaq was the reason I was there anyway.

He's a brother to me too. Our family is just like almost like family. So it was one of them things. And then I got to play with Carl Malone, which is one of my best friends too as of right now. And me and him got really, really close. So it was a great year for me

to go to the Lakers and do that. We didn't, we didn't complete the job. We were hurt all year, and we still made it to the finals, and played against a good Detroit team. And obviously that's year Kobe's going back and forth from Colorado. Colorado, yeah, and that was a lot of things, and you forgot Shaq was dealing with his contract issues,

and then we only had, we only had Carl for 22 games. And he was hurting the finals, too. Yeah, he was hurting the finals, and we missed him for 60, and then he got hurt right back when he came right back and hurt the same injury. It was just something that wasn't meant for us to be. So there's a story in that book I wanted to ask you about, because it doesn't sound like you.

Phil tells a story about you're playing the Pistons and the finals. And Kobe says in some team meeting, hey man, I want to guard Billups. I want to guard Chauncey. And Kobe tells Phil later, I wasn't really agitated to guard Chauncy. I wanted Gary to speak up and say he wanted to stay on Chauncy. And Gary didn't say anything.

And that told me all he needed to know. Do you remember that? Because I don't ever, I would never imagine you being like, I don't want to guard Chauncey, or I'm allowed to do this. I didn't, that wasn't the way it went. We had a, what happened was, is everybody was blaming it because Chauncee was making a lot of shots because we were, they were putting us in picking rolls,

and they were putting us in the picking rolls with Shaquille. And everybody knows Shaq, he stays back, and Choncy was coming off, shooting the jumpers, and I was always behind him. So I said, hey, blame everything on me. I don't care. I said, if we just play straight up, I can guard Chanty because Chanty wasn't.

that type of basketball player to get away from you. And that's what it was. He was coming off picks and he was making it. And what was happening is they were sucking it in and he was hitting a lot of open shots. And at that time, I was so upset. I didn't want to make no animosity between people. So I just told Kobe whatever, but I still guarded Chomsy.

I still guarded him in the games. And we just said, forget it. But it was happening because our defense wasn't the way it was supposed to be with the Lakers. at the time. And I didn't want to make no controversy. You know what I'm saying? I didn't want to start no things during the finals.

And I just wanted to keep it, keep it caution. Couple more very quick questions. You are a legendary trash stalker. Who in your time could rival you in trash stalking? Only one guy, I think, would have did it. And I only played against him two seasons, and that was Larry Bird. I think Larry Bird was the best. Legendary Trash Talker.

I think he was the best of a trash talk I ever heard. Can you give me anything? Can you give me a larryism? Well, Larry would always tell you. you, I'm going to give you with just one story. It was my rookie year. Xavier McDaniels on our team. Him and Xavier was having a battle and they didn't like each other.

And he told Larry told him that I'm, I'm a bus show, hey, every time I play you, if I don't have as many points on you and they were blowing us out in the garden, and they're up 20. And next thing you know, we look at the bench at the score table and Larry Bird is coming back in. He had already told us, he said, I'm going to shoot a jumper in Xavier's face. I'm going to have his many points on him. And if I don't, I'll quit basketball. And when he came back in, he said, I ain't got what I was supposed to have.

And he said, yeah, X-Man, you're supposed to be the X-Man? Come on over here. Because I'm going to shoot this next shot right here in this corner. And if it hit anything at the rim, anything, I'm going to keep shooting. And I won't come back in the game. The next play shot it all net. didn't touch nothing and he had his 30 and he did he went in and he sat out and he said i told you you ain't going to never talk to me like that and that was larry burn uh we got to go because you

got to shuffle off to another podcast and i got to shuffle someone in but last question you got a pick for this series well i think it's going to go seven i think it's going to be a good series i think the san antonio's got a momentum i think the nix got a momentum but right now you start off here who's got the who's got the home court advantage i think it didn't happen last last series with Oklahoma. But I think this Knicks team is building something with the guy who's starting to take over the NBA. Yeah, it's happening.

And it's happening. And I think that he's very, very mobile. He can guard a lot of things. He's going to make a lot of havoc. But he's got a lot of four good other guys around him, too, with that little cats he got around him. And I think they're very hungry. And I think they got over the top. They don't got over that hump

of being young. Now they're here. And I think they're going to get a taste of. Gary Payton says Spurs and Seven Gary, thank you for your time, man. It's great to see you. I appreciate to have you on. Thank you. Next up on Podcast Row. I guess that's what they're calling it. Tim Legler in the flesh of ESPN of the All City podcast.

Come on our podcast a bunch of times. How you doing? I'm great, man. You kidding me? Living the dream. This is amazing. Good series, right? We've got a good matchup. Great series. Couldn't ask for more in the matchup. Storylines. I mean, I feel like if this doesn't pique your interest and not forget basketball fans just like if you like sports if it doesn't speak your interest

I don't know what's wrong with you Wemby by himself has sparked so much curiosity among all the like casuals fans in my life and then you add in the Knicks in 53 years in New York City it's like a perfect storm of stuff

but I haven't gotten to talk to you game seven Thunder Spurs what was your reaction to that game whether it was Chet whether it was what did Wemby do to the Thunder offense was it injuries Like, if you were the Thunder, what's your takeaway from having your would-be dynasty,

at least stop for a moment? For me, making the checklist of kind of like, as I'm sitting at home, at the Jersey Shore, it was nice, it was off, had a beer in my hand, watching the game with a couple buddies. What kind of beer? Take us, give us the picture. I got a new favorite beer. Can I say it? Yeah.

It's like a mango cart. I don't even, I think I have heard of that. I moved down to Florida five years ago. I saw it in the store. Like, what's this? They're like, oh, it's kind of like blue moon, but it's a thousand times better tasting. And they're right. So now this is, I've always got my fridge stacked up with manga cart.

Beautiful. So I'm drinking that and watching the game. So here's my thought process. The first thing, honestly, that my takeaway was, in watching the game, the way that their shooters and role players stepped up in every big spot. Because it's like the thunder. Correct. The thunder were like right there beneath the surface,

Shea doing everything he could to keep a minute with shot making. you know, Kaysen Wallace playing out of his mind, but they couldn't crack that code. And the reason they couldn't was because guys like Kelden Johnson and Dylan Harper and Deerrin Fox and Champany made every shot they had to make with all of that pressure, like on the road with a trip to the finals at stake. Because Wembe was obviously himself,

but it wasn't like he went crazy in that game. They don't get through that if those guys aren't making those shots. And so that was the first thing. And then obviously the chat. thing, just this most head scratching, sitting there trying to figure it out. I've seen guys kind of shrink in those situations before. But for a guy this third team all league to score with 1040 left in the first quarter and took one shot the rest of the game, I don't know that I've ever seen anything quite like

that for a guy that's like on that level in the league currently. It was, to your point about the Spurs role players, the thing that I wonder if in 15 years, we'll remember that on two separate occasions the Thunder actually took the lead in the game because one was they were up by four, I think, 63-59, one was right before halftime. And normally when that happened, you feel like, all right, the home team got over the hump,

they got punched right out of the gate, like they did it every game, they took the lead. And we won't remember it because the spurs erased it both times immediately, like just immediate runs. It was so impressive. You're right. A lot of times that's when it goes from four to ten.

Yeah, just like they take control of the game. Now it feels a little overwhelming for the road team, especially this young group, and they never let it get to that point. All right, Spurs, Nix. Game one tomorrow, you're going to be on the call. Wembe will win the tip. So the Spurs will have the ball.

First thing you're going to be looking for Spurs' offense versus Nick's defense. Is it going to be who's guarding Wemianama? Is it Catt? Is it Ananoby? And what would you do if you were in Mike Brown's shoes? Ananoby as much as you possibly can, and I think try to prevent handing him off as much as you can.

Ananoby's the guy. For me, that's the physical profile type player you want on them. laterally strong, but enough height to at least kind of like bother him a little bit up, you know, as you're contesting a little bit, but then the strength to push him out on the floor when he goes to set screens. I think that's a critical component to the series. I'll be looking at that immediately in the first quarter. Where is he setting him?

When he sets screens and both feet are inside the three point line, and he's one stride to the rim, literally one. It's a completely different level of pressure on the defense, and the points per possession show it. It's different than when he sets that screen at 30 feet. Annobe is going to play a big part in that. So is the pressure on the ball. Because those guards have to start a little further out for that screen to come further out.

So that's for me, you asked right away, Spurs' offense, Nick's defense, that's kind of the first thing. Like, how are the spurs utilizing Wembe in this matchup, and where is he setting his screens to maximize his pressure on the defense? All right, put your coach hat on. If Anadobie's on Wemidiyama, and whether he starts on him or not, we're going to see it a lot. Who's cat guarding?

That probably that's a tough one because they've got shooters you might This is where the Harrison Barnes swap out right when they got Harrison Barnes out of the lineup But changed everything because everybody else can either shoot it or put it on the deck So that's a tough that's a tough one for Carl Anthony Towns I don't know who it's going to be it could be Champany That feels a little like Chet Guarded Champany but he moves around a lot You gotta get back to him because he can not that guy probably more than anybody they have is capable of taking over a house half four or five made threes in a short period of time if you're not getting back to him.

So that's tough. He obviously can't go on Castle even though you could kind of lay off him and dare him to shoot. He's getting downhill anyway if you're backed off of him. So it's not going to be him. Plus he's in too many ball screens. So it certainly can't be him. DeHenarren Fox is not going to be him. It's tough.

It's going to be tough. I think we'll see a little bit of everything. All right. So then the Knicks get the ball. They're on offense. First possession they have when the spurs are able to set their defense. Are you expecting right off the jump when? Yama and Josh Hart roaming around playing a one-man zone, and how do you expect the Knicks to

respond to that? Yeah, I think so. And Josh Hart knows, and he obviously was dared to shoot in the last series and really made Cavs pay. But, I mean, it was so absurd, like, the extent to which they didn't even try to get to him. He was taking shots to what he wouldn't even qualify his practice shots. He could have slippers on. He had that much time to shoot the basketball.

That's not going to be the case here because they still have just a really good close-out team. So they're going to concede it, but they're also going to try. to get there and if it's Wemby, you know, it could be one step from the block and he's going to get in the air and that's a much different shot for Josh Hort. He knows he's got to step up, be ready to shoot the ball. He's going to set a lot of ball screens. Okay, so then he can set it and slip out as Brunson comes off and now maybe you've engaged Wemby in that ball screen. You're taking him with you. If that ball can get out of there and get reversed, you've now got Wemby lifted, you've got them further away from the action. You've got to now go win those two-on-ones and three-on-twos

on the backside of that. And I think you're going to see, Josh Hart doing a lot of that. See, it's interesting that you bring that up because Hart set in March when the Knicks blew out the Spurs in Madison Square Garden. Heart set the most ball screens he's ever set in any game ever in his entire NBA career. And it was because of that, it was their way of saying, hey, Wembe, if you're going to guard Hart but lay off of him, we're just going to bring Hart into the screening action and a shooter's going to come around the corner, you're not going to be there, whatever.

And I feel like the Spurs have gotten more and more and more daring with Wemby in that zone of like, okay, if you try to bring Josh Hart into the action, he's just going to wave goodbye to Josh Hart and stay parked down on the baseline and be like, oh, this Mikhail Bridges over here, I'll be cool. And I just don't know, like, he's the first guy that I've ever seen where he's dictating the terms to the offense. They're trying to get him in the action and the action. He's just like, no, I'm cool. I can cover any amount of side. I don't know what you're supposed to do. It's tough because the other thing is, you know, you're looking at the Knicks and this historic run they've been on and look at the areas they're dominating. Number one of amongst all playoff teams

of points in the paint, 53 a game. Number one of three point percentage, 40%, number one of fast break points. Well, I look at the fast break points and the paint points particularly. That's tough San Antonio's transition defense. How are you getting to 53 points in the pain and how are you getting to 18 and fast break opportunities?

Now, the Spurs will cough it up, but they recover as well as any team in the league and cutting that off. So that's like, in some ways, like you're taking a chunk of the offense out in both of those areas. So where do you make that up? I think the three point.

volume goes up for the Knicks, and if they don't shoot, you don't shoot 40% like they are now in the postseason, if that number drops to 29%, 31%, when the volume goes up as well, you don't have a chance. I think the volume goes up because it has to go up because of the way the spurs play defensively. Number one, their initial defenders, their outer shell is so good at keeping the ball in front. And then, of course, you got Wemby back there. And the way the Knicks are running new offense, a lot of offball movement and Brunson on the baseline, setting that screen and coming up to get the ball from Kat and all that, they're getting

some of those cuts and slashes now. A lot of those are taken away against this team. That to me points directly to the three-point shooting and that means Hart, Ananoby, Brunson, when he gets into his step back and Kat, Kat's going to have, I think, to shoot the ball more in this series than he did in the last series. And they've got to shoot a respectable percentage from the three-point line to have a chance because I think that's the shot they know they can get. Give me a small, before we let you go. give me a small X-factor for both teams that you're going to be like. It could be a guy off the bench. It could be a tactical wrinkle.

It just is any small thing that comes to mind that's like, this could actually be a little game within the game that swings part of the series. I'm going to put one of them. I'm going to put it on Mitchell Robinson. Okay. So now he's got the pinky injury, obviously it's not going to affect the shooting, his ball handling. We don't have to worry about that.

But, you know, is he in pain? Does it affect his ability to grab the ball with two hands? Can he catch a lob? So we don't know that until he starts playing. you're talking about against this team if you don't get your share of second chance opportunities you're going to have a hard time if you only get one shot per possession

he gives you, I mean we've seen it he's flipped games in an eight-minute stretch including against this team I think he had like 10 against this team he can do that and that's going to supplement their office to give him extra possessions against an elite defense and not only that like just his presence in the paint

against an attacking team against Wemby size against Castle Harper all these guys. So I think Mitchell Robinson, for me, for the Knicks, major X factor, and then I think for the Spurs, I'm going to go with Dylan Harper. I just think he clearly's not phased by any of this stuff, and he's got the physical makeup to play through any physicality. The shooting can be a little bit streaky. To what impact does he have in this series as a scorer?

If he's a little bit more limited or he struggles a little bit, that's going to be a big bonus for the Knicks. because if he's also coming off the bench and giving you those games 12, 15, 18 points. If he has knights like that, it's tough to beat this team. So a couple of, I'm just riffing off that, I looked at before the Thunder series, Thunder Spurs, would it look like the Thunder were going to be fully healthy

with J-dub and A.J. Mitch and all that, and like, man, this is the most powerful offensive team the Spurs have faced. And I was wondering, like, and I was going to mention this on my preview and forgot, are we going to see more minutes of Harper, Castle, Wembeniama, and no Fox. Not like they're going to bench,

but like Fox maybe goes down to 28 minutes because they just need their A plus defensive lineup out. And if you look at the numbers when those three guys are on the floor together, Harper, Castle, Wemagnama, it's like you can't even score on the Spurs. And Robinson, I said this on my preview pod last night, I think it's barely hyperbole and maybe not hyperbole at all to say his health could swing the entire NBA finals. I think he's that important specifically against this team. Because the more I've watched Wembeenjama and the Spurs and the more I've talked to people who, are trying to build their teams with him in mind, I think a player like Mitchell Robinson,

as close as you can get, is like a must-have against Wembe Diyama. Like, you got to at least make him think, if I go up to block this shot and I don't get it, is there someone behind me who can punish me? And also, or catch lobs behind me. And like, you're not going to get all of that in one player all the time, but you get that. Like, Mitchell Robinson is the perfect kind of guy for that. And the other thing, those are all great points.

Why he's so important. The other thing is he eats a foul. meaning he protects cat. Are they going to go with, let's say, would they go with Huck Pordy? I don't think they would trust him

in the situation. You could play Ananoby at the five. I think that's what they go to. But they probably will if that's what they have to. That's why those 15 minutes, whatever it's going to be for Mitchell Robinson, are so important because he's absorbing minutes

that Carl Anthony Towns can be on the bench and not picking up fouls because we know he's prone to that. So all those reasons you mentioned. I just look at him and it's going to be fascinating to see when he checks in what his impact and effectiveness is.

And if he looks pretty good in game one, I think we probably can expect that the entire series. And that's a totally different look for the Knicks. Yeah, I picked Nix and 7. Either way, obviously, I went a long series just from entertainment perspective. It's a weird thing. I do think that Nicks need to get one of the first two in San Antonio.

Even though you say, well, they have home court going back the other way. It all evens out. I just think it's so hard to win four out of five, even if you have home court after the first two games. I think everyone's going to say they've got to get game. I don't care which it is, but I do think if they go down 2-0, it's going to be really tough for them. You have two teams that right now are at peak level on both ends of the floor. So the number of things that have to go right to win a game against either of these teams, there's a lot of things.

If you go down 2-0, I agree with you, then it just becomes math. Four out of five, including the last one on the road, if that's what it takes against the team that's like at peak level, that's hard, man. They're deep. They're great defensively. they can be great offensively. So that's difficult. I agree. And I don't necessarily people are like, oh, game one's everything.

I'm like, I don't agree with that. Split. Split is. Like get one of these two. I mean, it's already nuts and bananas in Madison Square Garden, like the games we've called. And we called games in the last two series,

you know, Philly and in Clance Cleveland. One, one. Oh, it's going to be. In the garden next Monday? That can you. imagine, like, and now that fan base really sensing it. Maybe this is it, man. This is the year.

We got the split we wanted. So split, I think very important to the Knicks. I think we got a long series. I think we have great finishes in this series. And as a guy calling it, I hope so, because we didn't get much of that in the Easter conference finals. No, we did not. We didn't get much of that. Game one. We got game one. That's an epic one. That was an epic one.

But not much into Cleveland. Not much in the Philly series. Not much in the Atlanta series, right? Because we got involved in that when it was like, it was 60, point lead was the game we called. So we haven't had a lot of those compelling three minutes to go coming out of that time out, anybody can win this game moments. And I think we're going to get several of them in this series.

Tim Legler, you're the best. Listen to him on the All-City Podcasts of Adam Morris and on the call with Mike Green and some nonsense spouting host that's one low below me, Richard, something. I don't know what his name is. I see some shiny down there. Is that the trophy or Richard? I think there's a trophy. I don't know. No one brought the trophy to me.

I don't think that's fair. I think every host should get a piece of the trophy. I'll just go snatch it right off their set. Legs, thanks, man. I'll see you soon. Of course. You got it. All right, look who it is.

Seven times you got to hold this thing or a version of this thing. Right there, 94, 95, Houston Rock is my favorite championship. That's the favorite one? Yeah. Why is that the favorite one? Robert Ory, by the way, is if he needed any introduction. Why is that your favorite one? Because this is the journey, man.

You think about who we beat on that run. You know, Car Malone, John Stockton, then the next round, Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, the next round. Right here he gets the MVP, David Robertson, Dennis Robben, and that crew, and then we go on the sweepshack and penny. So that was a fun championship.

So 95, I was a senior in high school. Die-hard. It just made me feel old. Die-hard NBA fan, though. A couple of guys, we would just watch every game, and we were like almost vicariously embarrassed for David Robinson because of what Hakeem did to him in that series. Were you all, did you all feel like you were part of that with him?

Like, we're all going to show together who the real MVP of the league is? Yes, it was a fun series, man, because back then, the Spurs would beat us five times in the regular season. You know, you play out upon us five times in the conference. And so they pretty much own this. And it's almost like once they gave David the MVP trophy dream was locked in. And he was doing stuff. We hadn't seen all season. It was mean, man.

It got to a point where you're on the court going, ooh, you know, and you're supposed to do that. As a player, you both get, oh, I see this all the time. We're like, oh, get him dream, kill him dream. So it was just a wonderful thing to watch. And also in 95, that's when, you know, I kind of got my nickname. That was big, that's the birth, a big shot, Bob. Is it Bob or Rob? Where are we going?

It started out as Bob. Yeah. I like Bob because, you know, after my father, but my mom, there's a story behind that. And she just didn't like them calling me Bob because of my dad. And she changed it to Rob. Okay. Somewhere down the line, it got changed to Rob because they heard the story. I mean, mom.

generally you should get the final call. Mom's no best. That's the reason I went to Alabama, not Georgia Tech, because my mom, like, you're going to Alabama. So my mom's no best. So the Knicks are back in the finals. Obviously, the last time there was 1999. But the one before that, the one they really had a chance in, you were there for their Ucid Rockets in 1994.

All-time Epic Series, seven games, comes down to the wire in Game 6 and Game 7, the whole thing. Do you remember, a lot of people with the Knicks who've told the story about the OJ, game. What do you remember about the OJ game? Oh, the OJ game is game five, I believe. You know, it was like game three, I think. Whatever it is. Yeah, one or three or four, yeah. But do you, do, were you also made

aware at some point during the game something is happening in the world? No, we were on. And then, you know, back then, you know, back then you just had a VCR and you, that's how you recorded the games, the VCR. So when we came back into the locker room at halftime, we, you know, we usually watch the game. We're like, what the heck is this going on? And someone said, oh, it's OJ. This is half time. This is half time. It's a half time.

Yeah. And it was, so we didn't have to, we couldn't even watch any film the next day because it was all OJ. And it was just, that's the only time we didn't pay it to it because we were locked in with it. We didn't care about OJ. We wanted to try to get our first championship as a team. So I rewatched end of game six, Knicks down by two, Starks takes the last second three that Hakeem just barely gets a piece of it. I rewatched. I was like, let me see where Robert is on display.

You're guarding Charles Oakley, who's the inbounded pastor. But can you close your eyes and see that in where? Was there a moment where you were like, oh, God, this is, this is, if this goes in, it's actually over? Yeah, I did. I was watching that, and I was like, Dream's not going to get there. And then he'd go go gadget arms and got there. And you think about how hot Stark was that game. So if Dream doesn't block that, I think Stark makes that because he was shooting that, he was shooting really good at that game.

And I remember I was on the guard and I was like, no, because he came open. And I'm, thank you, Dream. So that's all I'd just like, yeah. Also on that team, Mario Ellie. A couple of famous incidents involving Mario Ellie are part of your career. You beat the sons in that playoff run. And that's the game, that's a series where Danny Aange frustrated at the end of the one of the games. Pegs Mario Ely in the head.

Close range. No, I mean, I watched it again to remind myself. Like, damn, that would have taken me out. And you got to think about people forget Danny Ains was better at baseball. Yes. And so he was a pitcher. And so he did do that. It infuriated us.

We were pissed by that. No. forward three years. You're a member of the Phoenix Suns and Danny Age is one of the coaches. And what happened? You want that story? Yes.

We started like we were playing this. Well, he and I really started button heads was we was playing the Bulls. And I think the Bulls beat us by like 20, 30 points. And I was saying that, yo, we went to practice and he was like, where our office is this, the office is that? I was like, our defense sucks, man.

And Danny had the nerve to stand up. Like, you're the worst defensive player on the team. I'm like, hold on. There's a Wesley person. there's Danny Manning and you call me the worst of him to play on the team

there's something wrong with you and from that moment on we hate each other even more has it has it has it thawed has what

has it thawed have you got no I'm saying as what no I mean I'm joking like no no it has not

you know the funny thing about it is when he traded me he says I probably just won you another championship when he traded me so he traded me

to the Lakers but I have no ill will you know I really really if I could go back in time I would handle that situation

way better you know because I was at a time my daughter was sick in the hospital. I just came from a, you know, a team where the coach was work hard and practice to a team where they was like on a country, you know, country club atmosphere. So it was just a lot of things going to be mentally and physically that it was just a frustrating time.

And am I going to apologize for it? Nope, because it's Danny Ains. Anybody else I would apologize. So on the 93-94 Rockets, just trivia purposes, Chris Gent, now an assistant coach with the Knicks. And on the 1997 sons, because he got traded from the Rockets to the with you, Mark Bryant, who was going to stand up for you in the locker room if there was ever, like Joe Klein wanted to fight you after you threw the towel at Danny H.

Also an assistant coach with the Knicks. There's like a lot of Knicks Robert Ory connections going on here. Yes, you know, and we swept the head coach for the Knicks and wheels with the Spurs. There's a lot of connections going on. But I think Mark Brian is my guy, you know, he's been my guy since he got there. And, you know, I kind of got mad at Chris Jen. I love him to death. I got mad, meaning sarcastically.

We got the championship video, and he's all up in the video more than me. He's only been here three weeks. I've already an NBA championship, baby. I'm like, why is he in the video and not me? But Chris Jent was like, I loved him. I really was an admirer when he was at Ohio State, the way he played defense.

And so I'm a big Chris Jent fan. All right, so you mentioned you get traded to the Lakers, and then you three-peat. When in that three-year run, four years total with the Lakers, I feel like, right? My career seven years. Yeah. Oh, okay.

When in that run, the heart of it, though, the championships and the near championships, when do you start worrying about, like, this Shaq Kobe thing doesn't seem like it's going, like it doesn't seem like they're getting along very well. Well, you know, for me, it, if you go back and look at the people you have on your team, you keep players at bay, you think about B. Shaw, Hart, myself, you know, Rick Fox Fish and John Sally, it was no rift during, in the locker room, there was no rift in practice. You know, in the summertime of guys getting fights, you know, I'm sure you heard about guys fighting in practice.

It was no rift. And then all of a sudden, you know, we're gone. The guys who were like the glue of the team are gone. And then that's when they really, you know, exploded. And you think about, you know, all the stuff that happened with Kobe. All this stuff happened with Shack. And the next day, and they make it to the finals, they get beat up by the pistons. And so it goes to show you that guys that are in your locker room

are so important if they're not the stars because they are the voice. Everybody thinks it's the coaches. The coaches aren't the voice. It's those veteran players who know how to hold guys together and hold them accountable. I think that was the key because we were always talking to Shaq. Shack and I shot Frito's every after every practice. I had a voice. We could talk to them.

Like, man, it's not about you and Kobe. It's about us. And so with those voices gone, you see what happens. So you signed with San Antonio after that as a free agent. But were you, like, did you want to go back to the Lakers? Were you mad that the Lakers weren't bringing you back? I was actually mad. I was actually mad.

I didn't talk to Jerry Buss for like five years. years. And I thought the way they handled it was unfair to me for a person. Anytime you wanted someone to do something, it was me coming out, you know, okay, I do this, I do this. And then all of a sudden I say, okay, I know you won't carm alone so bad that you're not going to bring me back. Allow me to go early, let me go early so I can find a home. And they didn't do that. And so luckily someone fell out of the rotation for the Spurs. People don't know, I signed a one-year deal with the Spurs. Yeah, I looked it up today. And I didn't have a good year because people understand when you play for Pop, he has a million players.

So it takes you a little bit to understand the system. Then the next year I signed another one year there for League Mental. We won it in 2005 and then he signed me for three years. And after 2005, Mark Cuban offered me way more money to come play for the Mavericks. But I said, no, I like it here in San Antonio. And plus I can get on this freeway and go see my daughter who's in and out of the hospital when I need to be. So it was about, you know, being comfortable for me and enjoying the team. And I really enjoyed playing for pop because I like the culture.

I like the structure. I like how you go to practice. You practice hard. It was no country club stuff. A lot of these teams don't practice hard. I practice all nowadays. But I really enjoy the environment here. So Big Shot, Bob, if I say that to people,

they're going to think of the Lakers King's Shot, the one that Vladay tips right back out to you and you make it. I don't think enough love gets placed on two-two finals, Detroit, San Antonio. You're down by two. On the road. The whole finals is in the balance. you're inbounding the ball.

Five seconds left or something like that. No, 10 seconds left. I think you make the shot with five seconds left. You're inbounding the ball. Rashid Wallace is on you, but he decides I'm not guarding the imbounder. So you inbound it, Manu passes it right back to you, and you make a three to put the spurs ahead by one. Were you like, holy shit, he's not guarding me,

get the ball right back to me? Did you make eye contact with Manu? Or were you surprised that Sheed was making that decision? I was shocked because when I threw the ball, it was like a, you know what I'm thinking about people? laughing. They talk about how much I hate bounce passes. I hate them because they're slow, but that's the only thing I could get to Manu

because the play was from Manu. And so Rashid's kind of like, okay, I'll go trap. And I was like, no, he didn't just leave me open because to me, back to your point, like, nobody talks about that. And what I did in the second half of that game and the shots I made. We're going to get to that in a second. But it was just for me, I just felt like

incredible that I was like, okay, you leave me. I've never been this hot in my life. You know, So he was... Did you think it was going in? Oh, and it was going in. Because when I watched it today, it looks long. When it's in the air, it looks like it might be long

and then it hits back rim and in. So you knew you're like, it felt good. It felt great. And that's the thing of me, I've always known if my shots are going to go in. Maybe like one out of maybe like 20. I might not. No, I thought, oh, it's going in and it doesn't go in. But when my shot is on, I know if it's in or not.

What I had forgotten in that game was right before that, this is like one of the greatest forgotten. gotten dunks in the history of the NBA. They kick it to you on the right wing. I can't remember what the scores. It's going through a bad pass. Whatever. They kick it to you on the right wing.

Sheed is not guarding you. He's rotated and you have a clear lane to the basket. And you go. And like people, I think people think you've a big shot guy, great all around player, defense rebounding, passing all that. High flying, I mean, you could dunk. You are a dunker coming out of Alabama. But this is like an in-game masterpiece.

You drive in and throw this lefty, like lefty arm extended over Richard Hamilton who tries to draw a charge on you and won. And you missed a free throw, because your shoulder was hurt. Your shoulder was hurt. I was in so much pain. You missed it short.

But that dunk, is it one of those moments where you go up, like, I guess I got to try to dunk this? Or in mid-air, you're like, holy shit, I might dunk this. It's an amazing dunk. It's a holy shit moment because you try that dunk and, you know, all the time. And it's a lot easier when you, like, fresh and you can get up. And, like, this was, like, fourth quarter. you know and I'm like tired

and been playing minutes playing against a tough Detroit piss and so when I took off I was like, of course I think I can't oh I'm about oh I think but if you look I barely got it over it wasn't one of those dunks it was just so it was a pretty good dunk

it was a pretty good dunk and you know and the thing about Rip we've been to a lot of events together he always says man you're the only guy who's ever dunked him in the NBA I said yeah you should have moved out the way all right seven time champion there's a there's a whole

ground swell of like we got to get Robert or in the Hall of Fame, make him the first quote unquote role player in the modern NBA to get into the Hall of Fame. Is that something you want? Have you advocated for that? Do you feel like you deserve it? I've never been a self-promoter. I just feel like I just

go out and do my thing and I let people do what they need to do it for me. Do I feel like I should be in the Hall of Fame? I said yes, because what are you going to say no? Trust me. I'm very honest. And if you think about people look at the Hall of Fame, to look at NBA. It's not NBA Hall of Fame.

It's a basketball Hall of Fame. It's what I did in high schools. What I did in college. It's everything that you've done. And people don't understand, like, in order to be as successful as I was, you don't understand how much I had to sacrifice in order to be successful. You know, you look at my first couple of years in NBA. I had a play's running.

I was scoring. I was doing this. I should have made all defensive team, but I didn't. You and Kassell coming in together in the same draft class was like, whoa, these rookies are ready to play. And that's the whole thing that. That's the one thing I regret that I never made all defense team. You think about it.

That's crazy. First player ever to do 100 blocks, 100 steals, 100 threes in the game. That's crazy. You know, and so many accomplishments that I've done and nobody's ever done. You know, so many records I have. But it gets kind of squashed because I think they look at who I played with, Dream and Clyde, Shaq and Kobe, Tim Monu and Tony. They always say, oh, he rolled their coattails.

This is one for me, it would probably be like five championships that some of those guys wouldn't have won. I forgot about this. We are in San Antonio. Have you and Steve Nash ever talked about the hip check from 2007? See, people don't understand. Steve Nash was my boy. Steve Nash was my rookie when I was in Phoenix.

He and I used to hang together all the time. And, you know, we have nicknames. If you don't know what I'm talking about, just do Robert or a hip check. It'll come up. 2007 Western Conference Finals, two great, great teams, two, two. People got off the bench and were suspended. But have you talked to him about this? We talk about it all the time.

I told him, I said, man, you flopped on that. He's like, because if you look, you know, my arm never went out. I was watching the NBA. That's why it's called a hip check. But no, here's the thing is I shouldn't have been suspended for two games. Every time I see the guy at the time of suspicemen, I want to push him down and fly to stairs. That cost me $60,000. And so I'm like, but no, it would just should have been a hard file.

You know, we forget, since he's a little guy, he's a MVP, they want to suspend me. He's got the bandage on his nose already. But that wasn't for me. No, no, no, it wasn't for me. got it on. That was from Tony Parker. Yeah. But right after the game, they interview.

I don't know, maybe it was short. I don't remember what it was, but you give an interview with. You just say, like, hey, well, I was trying to draw a charge and I got there late. Like, that's a good explanation. I got to say, that's a good alibi. I was trying to get over there, and I was like, I'm not going to make it. Like I said, I'm a realist. So I said, okay, one of those got to take this punishment.

So I was like, but I tell me, I am a wall. Steve Nash was a tennis ball. Of course, he's going to bounce off a wall. So it just looked bad in the way it was. All right. Last question, because you've got to keep making the rounds. You're my last stop. I'm not going home after this.

Okay, well, that's great. I'm going home out of this. I heard you down there on the road trip and show with those guys. I heard a prediction come. I couldn't hear what it was, but it was six. I heard somebody in six. Spurs and Six. Spurs and Six.

I think Spurs is six. I think if you look at the way the Spurs play, they match up really well with the Knicks, but the Knicks don't match up that great with the Spurs. And for me, I think when you watch a lot of these series, Brunson is a liability on the defensive end. There's no liability on the defensive end for the Spurs. Think about who Champini is probably.

Closest thing is Fox probably, especially if the ankle sprained is bothering. I think Brunson will go out Fox a little bit in this series. But those guys aren't the most important player. But I think overall, towns and how he defends Wemby, depending on if Mitchell plays. But I think that's the most important thing. But I still think the Spurs in six.

Scary, man. If Wembe is winning titles, this soon in his career. It's a little scary. Yeah, it's scary, but you know what, though? Just like they were mad at OKC, you never know of OECC, go come back next you're mad at the deal. OKC's going to come back mad at all right.

Robert Ory, truly a pleasure. And like, seriously, I say this at the end, one of my favorite players ever to watch because I always gravitated to the guys who did the subtle things and lifted everyone around them and you were like the archetype of that guy. Not just 3 and D, it was 3 in a little bit of everything. Good passer and everything.

This is great to have you. Robert O'Roe, everybody. Thank you, sir. Oh, and Larry O'Brien, nice to see you. Back at the NBA Finals, we're going to talk about the actual NBA finals. Ian Begley from SNY, home of the 26 and 34 New York Mets, baby. Not in last. We might be in last again.

We got out of last briefly. Ian, nice to see you. Always nice to see you, Zach. It's good to do this in person. It's nice, right? Yeah. Never has, maybe not never. seldom has so much attention and scrutiny been paid to

how a player shakes hands, high fives, shoots free throws, what's he wearing on his hand is Mitchell Robinson today. The Knicks were coy about his status for game one. No one has really reported how he hurt his pinky finger slash fifth metacarpal, whatever we're talking about it. What do we expect for game one? Looks like he's going to play. He looked like he was doing most everything.

Yeah, he didn't seem limited. I think he's going to play. wants to play. The Knicks are hopeful that he can play. I don't know if he's been fully cleared by the Nick medical staff. That's the last hurdle because he was doing individual stuff and practices prior to this one. And Mike Brown had said he hadn't been cleared for the whole thing yet. So we wait on that, but I'm assuming he's going to play. Obviously, he'll be limited, though, right? People kind of try to downplay the significance of this injury, but he's got to rebound the basketball. You need to grab it with both hands. He's got to finish Al-UPS. And also, when he's

on the floor, Victor Wemignama, I think, is going to be defending him. So his role in this series is a significant one. Yeah, it's going to be really interesting. I think they need them to be 80% productivity-wise and whatever. No one knows what his pain tolerance is going to be. But I think they need him to have a good series in order to win. And I saw Shams reported today that, I don't know if you've reported this, forgive me if you have, that it was something at his house with like an injury occurred at his home. I will say there doesn't seem to be a lot of of like anger or consternation from the Knicks people like it like there was initial people went through to the worst possible conditions like did he punch a wall was it something stupid they

don't seem to be acting like it was something like that I mean it's a boxer's fracture yes so I mean take that what you will but yeah it was not in a game it was not in practice Mike brown said that publicly which surprised me and I think when this happens everyone's kind of caught off guard I think in that locker room there was kind of some people just I'm not confused, but concerned and just wondering why now. Why now? But maybe after you hear the story, maybe there's an explanation there. I mean, there's a million rumors kind of floating around about what happened, what didn't happen.

I can't report anything on that. But yeah, it did not happen on the job. What is your life like right now? Is it like you and I are both friends with a lot of Knicks fans? We live amongst a lot of Knicks fans. But you cover the Knicks. Is your life just a nonstop parade of everyone that you know asking you, are they going to win? Are they going to do this?

Can you get me tickets? Like what are some of the questions you're getting? All the above. Yes, all the above. And I love all my friends. But the worst part is like when there's a big news event and I'm scrambling, trying to figure out whatever's going on. And I'm getting texts from like a guy I haven't talked to in three years and he wants like the lowdown on what's happening. I'm like, man, I last saw you at my wedding.

Like what's happening here? Why are you reaching out to me? But no, I mean, this is an exciting time for obviously the franchise, anybody covering the team. That's a good group. So what can I really complain about at the end of the day? So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. And it's nothing bad, but you think about the roads not taken for this group in the last four or five years. And I remember I had you on my podcast when I was at ESPN.

You were not at ESPN. I don't know. We were both at ESPN at some point. But when the Donovan Mitchell non-trade happened, there was this. you were at the forefront of reporting what was offered, what was offered when, and it was like this, would they put a third pick in, but they'd only put a third pick in if RJ Barrow was not in the deal. And it was like, I looked at your reporting and some other reporting.

I'm like, man, what happened here? And like, did they really want Donovan Mitchell? And then they faced him in the last round. So when you think back to that, like, how close were they really? And because if they do that trade, then they obviously don't have some of the assets. They then trade for bridges and other things don't happen. What do you remember from that? Because they faced off, and I felt like that didn't get enough kind of attention as a storyline.

Right. And I just remember even people around Mitchell in the weeks leading up to it saying, this is going to get done. I mean, I think it's going to get done. It should get done. We expect it to get done. And I think Donovan Mitchell's gone on the record saying he thought he was going to be a Nick. So I don't know if it was for a lack of interest, but it was Leon Rose at the end of the day because it's his decision. deciding I'm not going to pay X for Donovan Mitchell.

And, you know, you noted the OG and an OB&OV trade comes after that. And then obviously the Bridges trade and the towns trade. And so there are so many things that did happen that may have never happened if he pulled the trigger. And it was RJ Barrett was a big part of it. Remember they extended Barrett and that kind of ended any legitimate trade talks. And so, yeah, the cascade from there. And you could also talk about, look, maybe the picks are still there for them to go. after Janus last summer in a serious way.

So, Rhodes not traveled. Leon Rose has made, by and large, the right decisions here. Even going back to the Josh Hart trade, like... One of the most underrated, including by me. I have always loved Josh Hart, but those kind of trades, they just become footnotes at the trade deadline because there's so much huge stuff that happens. And you're like, first for Josh Hart, seems fine, whatever.

Like, just such a great trade. Yeah, it's impacted the franchise. I would put him right under Jalen Brunson as far as reasons this thing has turned around the way it has. And you know him because you're around and you're a fan. You can't appreciate him by just looking at a boxer. You can't. You've got to watch every play and the intricacies of his game. And he calls himself a servant, which I think is a perfect descriptor because he just wants to make the four guys on the floor with him better and make it easier for that.

I think that's important. It's not even just easier. I think people used to say this totally different player to me about Ricky Rubio of a guy who's just fun to play with. Like, forget that Josh Hart is selfless and plays hard and makes the extra pass and does the dirty work and stuff like that. It just looks like it'd be a lot of fun to play with him. He wants to play fast.

He wants to pass. He's kind of adventurous, like, in a daring way that would be fun to play with. And every team kind of needs a little bit of bad. You mentioned Janus, and one of the things I've been wondering, like, obviously we haven't played the finals yet. were sitting here before game one. It could be 4-0 spurs and they win by 20 every game. I picked Nixon 7.

It could be a close series, whatever. There was this notion of James Dolan laid down the gauntlet. This team has to get to the finals or disappointment. And boy, if they don't, all these changes could take place. Has this team done enough that, like, those doors should pretty much be closed? Enough with the Yonis talk. Enough with this stuff. Like, is this team going to look like this, basically?

I would think so. But, you know, the scenario that you mentioned, if you're non-competitive in four games, I think those questions remain. But I think at this point, Mike Brown is back. I think you can say that. Maybe not a Sharpie, maybe an irasable marker, but it seems like he'll be back at this point.

I would hope so. Right, but to your point, like, if it doesn't go well at all. I don't think that's going to, that would be very surprise of this one, non-competitive series. So right. I think it's going to be a great series, and I think, yeah, everybody will be back. No major changes. You've got to figure out what to do with Mitchell Robinson,

figure out what to do with Miles McBride extension, but it should be the same cast back next season. Could this have happened with Tibbs? I asked Nick people that, man, for the last few days. The one answer that I got, which I found interesting, was that they said they didn't think so only because the idea that these guys are very loose, and Tibbs right or wrong. Like the further you went, the more intense he got,

and that kind of rubbed off on a room. And you saw them at practice. These guys are light right now. And so I don't want to disparage Tom Thibidot at all. Did a great job. Great job. If you want to win games, he's a great coach to hire. Foundational piece.

But you look at the big decision they made around this time last year. We all had questions about it, and it's worked out in a way that they had hoped it would. It absolutely has. And you mentioned them looking loose and stuff. Kat talked a little bit at media availability today about the aftermath of game. in Atlanta.

And he made comments to the effect, I believe. I don't know if you were in the room when he was talking today about, you know, we all had to look ourselves in the mirror not only about like how we're playing and what we need to do to sacrifice for the team, but like how many of us are going to be Knicks next year if we don't pull out of this?

And then they haven't lost the game ever since then. So I wonder what you have observed or can tell me about like the aftermath, that moment of we're down to one to a team we should beat. Is this like how do we turn this? around and like obviously something changed sure and so part of it was i think the coach's message was you guys are are letting your foot off the gas here this is not the time to do that there was the offensive change with carl towns i think part of it though was a mentality shift and and towns

maybe was getting at that a little bit i think uh i talked to miles mcbride in philadelphia after they swept and he said we after miles mcgride hit like 193s last game yes yes and so he said that you know we were a good team but we We were kind of waiting for the opponent to give us the game. And that was the issue. And after that game three, they talked and it switched from that to we know we're a good team. We have to go out and take the game. We can't just wait for somebody to make mistakes.

I think that's maybe it sounds like a cliche. But it is kind of what you've seen from them during this winning street. I think they've been favorites every round so far in the playoffs. Certainly I picked them ever round. I think they've been favorites every round. Have they talked about or thought about being underdogs? for the first time in the playoffs at all in their media recently? I haven't been in there when someone has been asked that question or answered it.

But I think that regardless of whatever the label is, it starts with Jalen Brunson. Like he's not going to concern himself with what I think, what you think, what Vegas thinks. These guys are locked in such a high level on the daily details of what they need to do on the floor. Even during these breaks, it just seems like the outside noise, it's all around them, but they're not hearing it, and that starts with Brunson. You, like many others, have lived through a lot of tumultuous times in Nickland, and as they have risen to this point this year, a lot of us have gone back, and just to put in perspective, how far they fell and how far they have come,

sort of highlighted some of the lowlights, I guess, of the last 20 years. We've talked earlier today about a couple of maybe the forgotten low lights that you might want to highlight. I give you the floor. Sure. I mean, I would go Derek Fisher, the fist fight with Matt Barnes, him missing a practice all the way across the country. Well, he was the head coach of the team, not a player.

And then a later iteration of the head coach, Kurt Rambis, who did a solid job, and I think he believed that he was going to maybe get the job, and Phil Jackson went a different way, but I remember there was a day where the Daily News wrote a story about his Twitter account

liking a not safe for work tweet. I had totally forgotten about this. It turned into a whole story. He was asked about it. The Knicks put out a statement saying, you know, we think Kirk got hacked and we're actively working with Twitter on an investigator. It was the most absurd thing.

So that you could point to three, four, five of those. And it was really, there were the density of those ridiculous stories. You almost, you just smacked your forehead. But now, Leon Rose, here we are. several years into his presidency, there's a competence. And that clowns, the circus stuff, the buffoonery, it's not there anymore. And part of me wonders, Zach, and I'm curious to hear what you think. Leon Rose had a front row seat to this for, you know, 20 years as an agent.

He always had a client in New York. He was always, you know, doing his job, which meant, you know, talking to the front office, trying to figure out what was going on. I just wonder if that experience, seeing all the lows and the crazy stuff, if that informed the way he goes about his job as team president. How could it not, right? I mean, how could it not? And I complete, there are so many things that you just forget about happening.

And that was one of them. Well, did you do make predictions or no? I don't think you do, right? I'll make a prediction. See, I can't say Nix and 7 because the way San Antonio played in Oklahoma City in a game 7. For them to have a game 7 at home, I mean, I just think they would handle the next. So I would go Nix and 6. Nix and six, wow.

I'll tell you this, I already told my wife, if the Nix win in game six, I don't think I'm coming home. Like, I don't think I'm going to be able to make it home. I don't, I think you just need to plan family activities without me for 48 hours. I think it's going to be a long series. I pick Nixen 7. I think Robinson is a huge X factor. But I really think they can do it. They're underdogs and they deserve to be underdogs.

The Spurs are that good and they have the best player in the world, probably and the best player in the series. I think the Knicks have stumbled on, not stumbled. I think they have found some magic and some alchemy that is real. And like, I think they can actually do it. So we'll see. Josh Hart, Victor Wemianama. That's where. Yeah.

And how, who guards who and how that works and who breaks who and who breaks first. Ian Beglu will be here to chronicle all of it for SNY. And it's a pleasure seeing you, bud. Always a pleasure. See you on the block. Absolutely. Careful on the Twitter accounts. Careful on those Twitter streets.

All right. definitely not least from Podcast Row. This year's winner of the Twyman Stokes Award for teammate of the year in the NBA. I think 18-year veteran? 18 years, yeah. DeAndre Jordan. That is a long time.

Yeah, long time, long time. A lot of ice baths and stretches and... Cyberbedroom chambers and all that. Second round pick. You fell out of the first round. College coach, I was rereading some stuff he didn't. He didn't like, you know, didn't have the most ringing endorsement of you.

Yeah, which is great. 18 years later. so I appreciate that. Thank you. So you are at the finals. We are at the finals. And I went back and I had to, you know, like I think of you. I think of Lob City and some of the other stuff and the kidnapping, which we'll get to in Dallas.

But you then eventually signed with Dallas as a free agent. And rookie Jalen Brunson is on that team. So you're kind of attached to this series in a couple of different ways. But you're on that team for most of the season before you get traded to the Nix. But did you get to know Jalen at all? And could you tell what was there? Yeah, I mean, Jadden was always super talented. You know, he just was playing with and sometimes behind Luca, you know, and that's that's all

it was. And Jadden was obviously was a great college player. He's a great pro. He's an all-star. And I just think sometimes there's just situations that can help blossom a player. And he's walked into a great one in New York. Then you get traded from Dallas to the Knicks as part of the Porzenghis trade, which is like a, I lived in New York at the time.

That was like an explosive moment in New York. People were like really mad about Porzingis and what are they doing. But you come to New York and on that team is Mitchell Robinson as a rookie year. What do you remember about him? I mean, Mitch was just so raw, you know, but he obviously had the tools to be a great shot blocker, or a great defender, a great rebounder. And I think that he's kind of stepped into that role. And, you know, he started some points of his career and coming off the bench now.

And I think that he has really just been a star in whatever they're asking him to do. And I think that he's going to be huge in the series. He's a big X factor to me. in this series. They really need his offensive rebounding behind Victor. But did you get a, I mean, you're only there briefly. Did you get a chance to, like, because he's like broadly similar to you as a player. Did you get a chance to talk to him about like.

Absolutely. We worked together a lot. Well, because he also, as a young player, was not shy about like, hey, I can shoot threes. I can take people off the bounds. And you went through a little bit of like, I want to score more. Did you talk to him about that dynamic? Yeah, we talked about that. And when I got there, and I had already done a lot of the individual accolades throughout my career.

And I thought Fizz did a really great job. of, you know, kind of letting me take him under my wing a little bit. And Mitch was super receptive. He embraced that. He wanted that criticism. He wanted to get better. And we worked together a ton. And he saw what I had done in the prime of my career.

And he was like, okay, well, I want to be able to do that. And I thought that it was great to have somebody like that, somebody to where I saw myself in them a little bit as a younger player, embraced that. And I'm happy whenever I get to see him succeed out there. Did you get to talk to him today at all when they were able to Not yet, not yet. Yeah.

So when you're in New York after being traded there, your free agency is coming up. Obviously, there are a couple other high profile free agents that were coming up. And there were a lot of rumblings of like, oh, D'Andre is going to orchestrate all of them to come to the Knicks. Was that ever really a thing? And you all go to the Nets, obviously, after that. Yeah, it was a thing for a bit. Because, you know, in my mind, I was like, I'm already here. Yeah.

And then, you know, they have some pieces and they want to do some great things. And obviously, you know, we ended up going to Brooklyn. and that was a great experiment. It was fun. It was fun for me to be able to play with my friends. And those guys on Brooklyn were amazing. And even the young players that they had were great. So I think that it was a cool time to where, like,

I got to be able to choose where I was going and kind of stick there for a little bit and play with some guys who I consider my friends. So I thought that that was a fun time. It didn't ultimately, like, help us win a championship. But it was a great experience and learning curve for me. Well, and also, like, so many, crazy things went wrong.

Yeah. Like a global pandemic occurred. All the injuries in 2021, where there's the foot on the toe on the line shot. Like, there's a lot of universes in which that actually clicks right. Absolutely. Before Hardin and with Hardin.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's kind of a team that is not derided, but like, oh, what if they barely played together? But there's a, like, when it was rolling, it was a little bit scary. Yeah, for sure. I mean, like to see like three Hall of Fame offensive juggernauts

and playmakers on the floor. I tell people all the time, guys would either get there working early pre-practice or very quickly right after practice because they would play ones after. So everybody wanted to kind of watch those guys play. And it's like if you're a basketball fan, if you love the game and competition,

you want to see these guys play against each other. And that was cool for me to be able to step out of a role and start to transition into a new one. So I really enjoy my time there and playing with those guys. So I've talked to Blake Griffin about this. I've talked to Chris Paul about it. I've talked to Doc Rivers about it. I have not talked to you about it

and you're the centerpiece of the story. I need to know your perspective of the famous DeAndre Jordan kidnapping of Dallas Free Agency. Well, yeah, I mean, according to everybody online, I got kidnapped at my own home. In your own home. So that's great.

Home napping? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, I didn't realize what was going on on social media until post. The all-time greatest day of NBA Twitter. Yeah, I mean, like, everybody was involved, and I thought that that was crazy.

And it even came out that Mark was driving around Houston looking from my house or some craziness like that. And I just, it's crazy what people will believe and what people will say online. So I think I learned a lot about social media at that point. But ultimately, you know, I appreciated Dallas in that time. I know that there were some hard feelings a time with that. But at the end of the day, you know, I didn't want to leave a certain job and take

another job. That's all that happened. You're a young guy. Yeah. Faced with a tough decision. Yeah, absolutely. And I think at that point, it was me seeing all the heartbreaking defeats and injuries and bad luck that we had with the clippers. And I kind of was like, well, hey, maybe this is a time for me to go off and excel as an individual and do these different things. But, you know, truly my heart really wasn't in it. But I love everything that Dallas did. And you ended up going there eventually. Yeah, that's why when I got the call that they were interested in the free agency,

I'm like, this is a joke. There's no way that this is. Again? Yeah, and I'm like, they're going to renege on the deal or something that's going to happen. But, you know, I ended up getting traded in the middle of the season. But I enjoy my time there. I'm a Cowboys fan anyway. So, like, I got to experience that firsthand.

So it was fun and a nice little. time in my, the weird part of my career. So the thing I don't want to do with you is go rehash all the clippers things because there were so many things that happened with the clippers and they've all been rehashed, heartbreaking defeats, all of that. I think this, this current leg of your career, we'll call it, has been so much fun to watch because you come in as this young guy who, you know, wants to prove himself and then, you know, rises to become an all-NBA player and an all-star and all this. and then you move around a little bit and very easily your career

could have petered out by now and instead you become this like beloved I mean legitimately beloved mentor teammate I think it's an awesome story and I never want people to forget that in game five of the Nuggets Heat Finals you got in that game a championship like people talk about staying ready

not everyone in your role actually everyone that lasts as long as you are and is in your role, stays ready enough to play in a championship clinching game in real minutes. Absolutely. When they called your number in that game, when Michael Mullen called your number, had he already told you like, hey, we might need you in this game? And were you like, yeah, hell yeah, I'm ready. Yeah, I think, you know, like even now and back then, I, I prepare every game like I'm going to play.

Like, I'm going to play 30 minutes. Like, that's my pregame routine, whether it's my nap, how I prepare. I'm drenched in lay-up lines. So I'm going into every game like I'm going to play. And, you know, during that playoff run, I played against Minnesota, didn't play against the Lakers. And, you know, it kind of changes up a little bit. So any time you have to be ready. And people talk about staying ready.

But that's a real thing. Nicola was in foul trouble. Moe looked down at me and he said, DJ, let's go. And I didn't think about, oh, well, this is the championship. I'm like, this is the opportunity that I've won it, you know. Whether it's two minutes or 12 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it is, I'm going to go out there and play as hard as I can and try to make some winning plays. And ultimately I did that. We won a championship.

And I just kind of embraced that role to whatever it was. I wanted to be able to compete and help the team out. I don't remember what the plus minus was in those minutes, but I think it was good. And I remember doing a podcast on the floor after that game. Brian Winn-Horse and I, we were both at the ESPN. We would do one after every game of the finals. And I said, like, I just want to take a pause for a second

and point out DeAndre Jordan went from not playing at all to getting thrown into a stressful finals game. and held up. I think that was like super cool. And I think the Twyman Stokes thing, would you ever imagine winning an award like that? And like where does it rank in terms of your career? It was just announced, what, last week, two years ago?

Like in your career kind of achievements. Well, I mean, I think it's cool. I think it's super humbling, for one. I feel like I've always been a pretty good teammate. It took people 18 years to realize it. I'm joking. But it's cool because it shows like how somebody is able to adapt when it comes to different, you know, phases of their career.

And for me, I think once I got to Denver, I kind of embraced that. I may play some nights, I may play, I may not play. And I was okay with that. As long as I was still able to contribute somehow, whether it's on the floor or off the court. And then now I'm, you know, pouring back into the next generation like guys did for me. And I think that that is the least I can do is, like, help the next generation. So our game continues to evolve and the players get better

and that helps the league continue to get better. Have you made a pick in this series yet? I have not. I'm trying not to. I just, I want it to go seven. You want it to be long? I want it to be, yeah. Without picking a team, do you think it will be long?

Yeah, I do. Okay. Because I think the spurs are young, hungry. They have a lot of talent. And obviously, they have, you know, the unanimous defensive player at the year. But I also think that the Knicks have been playing better basketball than anybody in these playoffs. So, and they're super hungry as well. You know, they could have made it to the finals last year.

if it wasn't for maybe game one of the Eastern Conference Finals. But these guys have been in the playoffs for a while. They feel like it's their time. So I'm excited to see what happens. Craziest game I've ever attended, game one of the Eastern Conference Finals last year. Yeah, that was insane. You played some crazy games with the Clippers.

I wasn't at most of them, but that one will always stand out to me. It's like, I'll remember I was at that game. Yeah, that was a crazy game. All right, last thing. We have a score to settle. I'm not sure you realize this. You have blocked me on Twitter.

I did. For 10 years. I did. And you never unblocked me. Really? And I think I know why. Did you say some bad stuff about me? I don't even think it was bad.

Okay. It's certainly not positive. Okay. But I don't think it was bad. This is 10 years ago? 10 years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was, yeah, this was for sure.

So I think we need to have a ceremonial, not lie, but an unblocking. But I think what got back to me and you can, this is now your form. Well, that's the problem because whatever it is, it wasn't from me. So maybe that's. What got back to me was he or somebody around him may be mad. that you kind of poked fun at D'Andre's tendency, to use my words, to steal defensive rebounds from his teammates. Because there was one, there was one in particular,

where you damn near decapitated poor JJ Reddick, who was just right under the ball about to get a defensive rebound. You're like, no, no, I'm the big man. This is my rebound. I'm coming in. And I think either you didn't like it or someone didn't like it. So I just, I got to speak my truth. I thought you were a big guy.

You were getting your rebounds, and I thought you were going to kill J.J. Redick. in the pursuit of a rebound that he was going to get. And I think I've been blocked ever since, and I checked this morning. I'm like, I still can't see Diadre Yoran's tweets. Yeah, I don't do my tweets, but I will say, at that point in my career, JJ's little ass needs to get out of the way.

Like, every point in my career, I'm like, every rebound that comes up, whether it's offensive, defensive, it belongs to me. And I feel like that just kind of like turned a switch or everything that came off the glass. I guess it's got to be all or nothing, right? You can't modulate that. Yeah, and I'm like, hey, if I get the rebound,

I'll kick it up to you guys. You guys go score. But, like, anything that comes off is mine. It might have been that. It might have been, like, if, when you play dropback defense, any big man that plays drop back defense, if you're not, like, completely into it or if it's a bad matchup, that can look like you're not doing anything.

Like you're not doing anything. But really, you're just executing the scheme. And I think also back earlier in my career, I may not have understood that as well. But I think it was the stealing defensive rebounds thing. But you got to get your money. You got to get your paychecks, man. I mean, yeah, I'm like, hey, I want to be a star in that.

You know, and I became obsessed with it, man. So, I mean, it turned out okay. You're coming back next year, right? Yeah, that's the plan. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I think it's awesome. I think this whole late career path has been great, and it's great.

You're going to be around the finals for a lot of it, all of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of it, yeah, yeah, we'll see. All right, I'm with you. My official pick was Nixon 7. I think they can actually do it. I do, too. I mean, they're here for a reason, right?

They're underdogs, but I think they can do it. But I'm like, I just like, let's just have a long crazy series. That's all I want. All right, D'Andre Jordan, thanks for sending some time with us. I'll see you at the finals. Unblocked on social media. There you go. You heard it right here.

All right, that's it for this episode of the Zachalos show. Not your normal episode. Thanks for sticking with us. Thank you to Jonathan Frius on site with us today in San Antonio. Thank you to our great local crew who helped set us up today. Thank you to Robert Ory, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Legler, Ian Begley, Gary Payton for their time on an exhausting day for them on podcast. Roe. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching to Zach Lowe Show. Game 1 of the NBA finals by the time this goes up will be today. Buckle up. It should be an awesome series. Thanks,

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