The Zach Lowe Show - Pacers Head Coach Rick Carlisle, and Mets Corner Heads Home With Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Zach begins by reacting to a few news and notes from the basketball world (1:52) before quickly pivoting to a late-night Mets Corner with Sean Fennessey (9:52) as the team’s playoff hopes hang in the balance. Then, Zach is joined by a special guest, Pacers head coach Rick Carlisle (32:05), for a wide-ranging conversation as training camp draws near: They talk about his reflections on Game 7 of the NBA Finals, his expectations for this year, and his place in coaching history. Plus, along the way, the two discuss the zoo around games, WWE, and the time Carlisle fought a TV … and the TV won?  Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Sean Fennessey and Rick Carlisle Producers: Jesse Aron and Jonathan Frias Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Unfold more with the new Galaxy Z Fold7. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mickelope Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things that with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best tip. Test your basketball skills with the game of around the world. Even better if Mickelope Ultra is on the line, especially since they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets,

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See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Coming up on a late night, Zach Lowe show, Mets Corner, the Mets just beat the Chicago Cubs to take two out of three. Sean Fennessey is here. We're going to start with a little quick around the NBA talk. We got Lakers News, JJ. Reddick got an extension. LeBron still doesn't have an extension. It's not going to get one.

What's going on with him? Why was JJ Coy about the starting five on Lakers half media day? I guess they kind of split their media day up. Jared McCain, wah, wah, Sixers, woes continue. And then Sean and I get into the Mets. Stroll over the Mets corner. People are drinking. There's fireworks going off.

Three games to go in the regular season. Can this team, whose starting pitchers just can't do anything on a consistent basis? still McLean was good tonight. Can they limp into the playoffs? Can they do any damage? It seems like a long shot. What are they going to do in the offseason? Why am I getting greedy as a Mets fan?

Stay tuned. And then Rick Carlisle, head coach of the Indiana Pacers, joins for just a fun, wide-ranging interview, behind-the-scenes stories from the finals run from game seven. Tyrese, Tyrese Halliborne's injury. What comes next for the Pacers, his career in retrospect, some fun anecdotes, including Rick Carlisle, having a fight against the television.

Yeah, you'll have to stay tuned. for that. That's all coming up on this edition of the Zach Lowe show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is presented by HubSpot. Using only 20% of your business data is like going from a starting five to a starting one. Good luck with that. But that's how most businesses operate today using only 20% of their data unless you have HubSpot. Where all the data hidden in emails, call logs, and chat messages turns into insights to grow your business. Because having all the data makes all the difference.

Learn more at HubSpot.com. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show, Sean Fennessey, before we amble over to Metz Corner, where fireworks are going off, people are drinking. It's a cautious happiness. Will you indulge me in just a few minutes of NBA roundup talk? I would love nothing more. The Lakers had half a media day today because they just got to do everything the Lakers way. The big news, JJ Reddick got a contract extension. That was fast.

I guess he's on like the Will Hardy, Brad Stevens. We'll just get extensions on top of extensions on top of extensions. Maybe it's a like you're going to have to coach DeAndre Aitin for at least a year. Here's something to, you know, ease the wounds of how annoying he's going to be. I kid, I kid. I think Aiden's going to work. Are you ready for related? There was just sort of general uncertainty about LeBron.

Rob Polinka said we'd love for his story to end here, but we're going to defer to him. are you ready as an Angelino for just a year of which of the three and maybe four paths before him is LeBron going to take? Yeah, sure. I'm prepared to observe and not be relatively interested in any of them. You know, what do you, like, come on, just tell me, it's late right now. It's really late where you are. What's going to happen? LeBron's going to, he's going to retire a Laker and everything's going to go perfectly. I have absolutely no idea. You could retire. he could be on the Lakers again next year he could be on another team next year

then there's like the fourth path this mysterious European league that Maverick Carter is doing but that seems a little early if you just like made me guess right now just blind guess I would rank it retire another team Lakers but not but not like dramatic gaps between it's just to be clear

aggregators that's just a blind like based on the event of the summer, the cryptic statements, just the stupid crown commercial, which seemed like a, like a, we're setting the stage for the swan song, but I'm reading, I'm just reading tea leaves, that's all. Can I ask you for one more prediction, which I know you hate to do? Yeah, let's do it. It's 10.30. The match just won. So the last three seasons, I feel like the conversation between folks like you and Bill has been, this is crazy. This has never happened before. An NBA player has never shown this ability to be this good at this.

age with this much consistency. Is it possible that this is the year where his numbers go from where they were to 18, 4 and 5 because of his age, because of where Luca is in his career? Like, is that in play? I don't think so. I think something like 22, 7 and 6 is in play. But he's shown like over and over there'll be games where you will visibly, you'll watch the game and be like, he just didn't have it tonight. kind of coasted, whatever. It's just like, you know, just one of those nights. He's 39, 40s, just wait until the next game. Oh, 27, 10, and 9.

He just knows, he just gets numbers. So, no, I don't think so. Item number three, JJ was a little coy when he was asked about the starting lineup. He wouldn't firm it up. He said LeBron, Luca, and then Dave McMedman's stories, like he wouldn't really go into the three surrounding those guys. Wouldn't read much into that from what I've heard. last year on my podcast,

which he and I have dubbed the I Got You Fired podcast at ESPN. The last low post I ever did was with JJ. He gives me shit about it every time I see him. He firmly planted the flag on one particular starting five. And I think this is just him being like, I'm just not going to, I'm just saying I'd do that this time around.

I wouldn't read too much Austin Reeves stuff in it just yet because he also added that Austin Reeves has been the best player in the gym whenever, he's seen him player, he's been there. I would point out that Luca has been playing Eurobasket for most of the summer, so has not been in, said Jim, LeBron, I don't know. So wouldn't necessarily read a ton of the day. I will just say, though, I keep saying this and Lakers fans don't want to hear it.

I'm just monitoring the Austin Reeves situation. I'm monitoring it. Last year of his contract, player option, he's not going to take it. Extension, not really even, it's dead on arrival. It's not big enough for him to even consider taking it. You got Luca being the face of the franchise. Is Luca Reeves what you want to do long term? I mean, it's not a bad thing.

It probably is, frankly. You got the LeBron situation. You know the Lakers are thirsting to add a second megastar next to Luca. I'm just monitoring it. That's all. Is it possible that that's the best use of Austin Reeves as a Lou Will-style sixth man of the year offensive engine when Luca needs to get a blow? I think it would be something that the coaching staff would at least have to discuss

because you've got this, you've got Marcus Smart now and La Ravia, people are raving about behind the scenes. And I like Jake Laravia. Raving about La Ravia. Well, there just is this, there's this idea that instead of the three lead ball handlers altogether, should someone be the Genoblee and we start a role player in their place? And we've gotten two of them that would kind of fit the bill. Everyone has been assuming then that Rui Hachamura is the guy that gets demoted. I keep saying, I don't think, like, less of Hachamura is an answer.

And it just, there's only one other option left. And I just don't think they're prepared to do that. I think Austin Reeves is actually so, is actually good enough to probably preempt that. And you just stagger it the way you want. But I think it would be derelict of the coaching staff to not at least, like, kick it around. And the other thing with Reeves is, like, monitoring, monitoring. That's all just, I'm monitoring a lot of things. I got a lot of monitors out there.

But he's been included, the fake, the Reeves fake trade industrial complex has all been like, we put him in a deal to get a superstar back. There's another species of deal that has been less talked about, which is like a one for one, like for like top 30 player for top 30 player and just a fit kind of deal. I'm just throwing, I don't think he's going to get traded.

If you asked me, I don't think he's going to get traded this year. I think his free agency would be interesting, most likely scenario is always inertia, just to be clear, it stays with the Lakers. I'm just monitoring. Last thing before we go on, Jared McCain,

our dear friend Chris Ryan, just can't even get to training camp without something bad happening to the Sixers. Quentin Grimes, no deal in sight. Jared McCain tears the UCL in his thumb in a workout, trying to get over a screen or something like that, I heard. Out some amount of time we'll miss some part of the season.

It just, boy, between the Sixers and the Clippers, it's like, we should we just fold it up? Just just what more can happen to these teams? What more can happen to the Sixers? Wow, yeah, my heart bleeds for the Sixers. Geez, tough break for those guys. I did listen to you and Chris speak,

and then Chris and I actually had dinner last night, and I drove to dinner and listened to your episode, and then I sat down with him. And I said, you know, I know Embed, we don't know how it's going to go this year. You know, playoff P, he's near the end of the line for himself. But it must be cool that they were able to rebuild on the fly, that they now actually legitimately have three or four,

young, promising potential stars. And he was feeling great. 24 hours later, heartbreak. Yeah, you know, they have Maxie. They have Edgecombe. They'll have Grimes one way or another, I'm sure, unless something crazy happens. They're semi-wasting two roster spots on Kyle Lowry and Eric Gordon, Edgard. But they have Ubre and Paul George.

You figure you can finagle the way around it, test the depth of your tweener forward rotational. But it's just not great. Like, I'm out. I'm all the way out. There's no, there's no, I've been out for a while. There's no, like, if everything goes right, like this will be the year Embed plays 70 games again.

It's not happening. Okay. Are you ready to stroll over to Mets Corner? Yeah. Let's take a, let's gamble elegantly to the most beautiful corner in baseball right now. 48 hours ago, well, 54 hours ago, something like that. Mets are down 6 to 1. Reds are playing the Pirates.

feels like it's just let's fold it up like it's over i'm sick of the team the pitching is just a complete trade the offense is like legit this is a legit top five to six major league offense that's proven it's done they've been in a like around there an ops for a while now and they keep getting better they lit up the clubs again tonight none of the pitchers can get through six innings tong and peterson couldn't get through two innings senga is gone and might be a headcase like when you read the stories about him it's like he just does and feel it. It's like the velocity's not there, but the mental isn't there.

And it's like he's not, we think he's physically ready, but he's not ready. It's like, I don't know what's going on there. But we were dead in the water and fought our way out of it. Nimmo, big home run. Alvarez, maybe the biggest home run of the season. They pull out that. They win today 8 to 5. It got a little dicey, a little scary.

Didn't like it when it went from 8 to 2 to 8 to 5. They do the job. They took 2 out of 3 from the Cubs. my mom's beloved Pittsburgh Pirates did their job, took two out of three from the Reds. The Diamondbacks lost today. Look, it's been a shitstorm for the last two and a half three months. It's been bad.

Three games left, 82 and 77, a game up on the Reds. Three left with the Marlins. They came into this three game set tied with the Reds. They lose the tiebreaker. All things considered 72 hours later were in the probably best case scenario for the prior three games. No question. Two out of three and the two opposing teams dropping two out of three was the best we could have asked for because there's no chance that the Mets who have been a terrible road team all year. We're going to go into Wrigley and win three games in a row and beat

Shoda Aminaga and Matthew Boyd and Kate Horton who got hurt apparently. But that was, you know, that's the strength of their rotation too. So it's hard to not feel better. They control their destiny with three games left. That being said, three games in Miami. And three games in Miami is, those are haunted words if you're a Mets fan because the Miami Marlins, actually in New York, ended the Mets season in 2007, the epic Tom Glavin collapse and in 2008. And the Marlins, even when they are one of the cheapest and most embarrassing franchises in the sport, always play the Mets tough, always give them the Mets problems. So I'm excited that they didn't fall in their face against the Cubs. That's actually, this is rare to feel good. Like, I feel good.

Three days ago, I was bereft. But I am concerned about this weekend that we're about to have. Are you concerned? How could you not be? I mean, if the tiebreaker were pro Mets, I would be substantially less concerned. It's the fact that they have to finish a game ahead of Cincinnati who plays the Brewers. How do the Brewers, I believe, have clinched the number one seed in the NL. Is that right?

I haven't looked, but I know that they were three games up on the Phillies, which would mean, based on yesterday's results that they probably could have clenched. No, they're two up. They're two up on the Phillies. So it's not over yet. So they have something to play for. So they got to play.

Well, that's good. How could you be confident? I mean, who's even pitching? Sprote, I guess, is one. Who else is pitching for this team in the next three games? McLean pitched today. I think it'll be Sprote, Clay Holmes, and then it is David Peterson's spot on Sunday.

and I don't think that in good conscience they can run Peterson out there after what we've seen from him for the last six weeks which is really upsetting because he's the only legitimately successful homegrown starter they've had for the last four seasons and at this time last year

he was money and it's just sad what's happened to him I also like he was so consistent for the first whatever 90 games so however many starts that is for him that I almost can't, I can't be mad at him. I can't be mad.

He was the only one pitching like into the seventh and sometimes eighth, eighth innings. I can't be mad at him. I also liked how nakedly emotional he was in the first game of the Cubs series when he was just so thankful that the team picked. He's like, I can't tell you how much I appreciate what they did for me tonight to pick me up. That was cool. That's like, that's a cool team thing.

But look, the bottom line is like, I want them to get in because it's fun. Playoff baseball is fun. not having to deal with like Chris Russo yelling on first take about how this is the most embarrassing franchise in sports would just be a nice relief. It would be a nice relief. But with this pitching, there's just no,

it's almost unfathomable to me this idea now that all they could get in and make a run just seems unfathomable. They could get in and win a game, too. The pitching is just a horror show. So what happened today with Nolan McLean, I think is instructive for why I want them to make the playoffs. So he was dynamite through five innings.

He struck out 10 batters. I wouldn't say he was unhittable because he gave up two solo home runs, but flashing that sweeper looked incredibly tough. Looks like what he is, which is, I think, a future race. Then he runs into some trouble in the sixth inning. He gives up a walk, he gives up a double. He gives up a three-run home run. He probably should have been pulled before the home run because Sia Suzuki,

two innings prior, hit a solo home run off him and looked like he had figured him out. Mendoza challenged him, left him in the game. game. I think he lost. He lost that bet. McLean gave up three home runs in a game. You couldn't say that was scary for us as fans or embarrassing for him as someone who's used to dominating. But to become great, these things have to happen. And I feel the exact same way about even if the Mets roll into a wildcard round and get their doors blown off, I want Nolan McLean to have the experience of starting a playoff game because next year is really the year. You can now when you look at 150 nine games of this season.

What a lot of fans thought, I think, is true, which is that this is a transitional year. It shouldn't have felt that way for a $350 million payroll. That sounds ridiculous. But this is a team with the most loaded farm system in the sport. And they're trying to get these guys experience. And I will say, I was watching the game and Gary Cohen and Ron Darling cited after Francisco Lindor's home run, the amazing success of the seasons for Lindor, Soto, Alonso, and Nimmo, too. who has been really up and down, but when you look at his counting stats,

Gary Cohen, who's watched more Mets baseball than most living humans, said that this is the best four offensive players together that the New York Mets have ever had in their franchise history. And they're kind of wasting this season because they're going to win 84 games and maybe miss the playoffs. So it's bittersweet that that's the case, but still they need to make it so that all of these 24-year-olds know what it's like to go there, so the next year they can do something louder. Does that make

you feel any better to hear that? Well, yeah, sure. I mean, I was driving around doing a couple errands today listening to Sports Talk Radio because apparently I now live in my own 1995 body all over again. And there was a debate on ESPN radio. It was Chris Carlin and I can't remember who else. And the debate was, are the Mets better off missing the playoffs? And of course, one person took the yes they are side, which is objectively ridiculous. You're never better off missing the playoffs. But the argument was, well, that would be the wake up call that Steve Cohen and David Stern's need that this team isn't good enough. I'm like, I think they probably know that this pitching staff is not doing the job already. I don't think they need like one game out at the end

is going to tell them that. What I really want is I now believe this offense is legit. Like these guys are good. The young Beatty will get better. Vientos has been a little cold, but he'll get better. Alvarez looks like a legit hitting catcher. The center field situation needs to be, maybe it's just Tyrone Taylor. It's amazing we've circled all the way around and I'm like, maybe Tyrone Taylor is good. Maybe Ryan Stanick is good? How did that happen? Like, we've gotten all the way back there.

Well, Ryan Stanick is the most playoff tested pitcher in their bullpen. So I'm not surprised that he's been pretty good for the last two weeks when it's really pressure-packed. Tyrone Taylor is not good for the record, at least at the plate. He is not good. So just because he got in a very important hit today, he is elite in the outfield. but he is not a hitter and he is not the solution for 2026 and please do not say that out loud anymore.

Has Acuna ever gotten a hit? You know, last year, at the end of last year, I'm sure you remember, you were watching. Like, he was, he, Francisco Indoor got hurt for the final 20 games of 2024. And Acuna came out of nowhere and filled in and hit like 3.30

and was really good. And ever since then, has not hit a lick. But he's slick fielding and runs well on the bases. He's actually a really good player to have on a playoff team, I think. My point is this.

What I want to happen, and I've done no research, and God knows I'm probably not going to. I want Alonzo to come back. I don't, Steve Cohen's money is immaterial to me. The luxury tax is immaterial to me. I'm now just a pure, just give me a good fucking team fan. So bring Alonzo back. I don't care about the years, whatever. And just go buy me or I don't know what trade possibilities are.

I need an ace pitcher. I don't know what free agents are available. I don't want to give up everybody for Paul Skeens, obviously. Like, I don't know. And I feel my mom's a Pirates fan grew up in Pittsburgh. I don't want to like take from the pirates. I don't want to just be like the big bullies taken using the little teams as their farm system. Spend the money to keep Alonzo, spend money on a starting pitcher that's a real guy.

And let's roll it back next year. That's where I am. $400 million payroll. I don't care. Do you think I care? I don't care. I mean, that means nothing to me. Just win.

That's all I want to do. I want to Al Davis it. I just don't. Historically, David Stearns, the Metz General Manager, has not wanted to give a contract out like the Yankees did this past off season. They gave an eight-year,

$200 million contract to Max Fried. And when that news hit, most baseball fans thought, that's a long time for someone whose arm might be a ticking time bomb. And look at us now. The Yankees are going to win the AAL East,

have as good a chance as any team to make it to the World Series, and it will be on the arm of Max Fried. And that's why you overpay for an ace. On the flip side, they could have overpaid for Corbin Burns and lost him in the second month of the season, and now he's got a six-year deal

that the Diamondbacks are going to have to pay down for a long time. It's really risky to do it. The move that they should have made is that they should have traded for Garrett Crochet, who just had an absolutely dominant season with the Red Sox, and the Mets had the prospects to deal

for a big-time, up-and-coming arm who most teams with really strong scouting departments knew had the chance to be one of the best pitchers in the sport. David Stern didn't do it. He doesn't pull the trigger on a lot of big deals like that. And there's not a free agent pitcher who's like a Garrett Crochet or Max Freed on the free agency market this year. So if they're going to get somebody,

he's going to have to locate a Paul Skeen's type and break your Pittsburgh pirate family's heart, I think, to get somebody over. What about the Marlins guy that they were rumored to be interested in who's coming off Tommy John surgery like a year. Sandy Alcantara? It's pronounced Alcantara and they will see him tomorrow. He's starting tomorrow's games.

So you'll get a good look at him. He sucked the first half of this year and in the second half he is starting to look like the Sandy Alcantra that won the Cy Young in 2022 and was one of the best pitchers in the sport. I'd love to have him. He's a badass. He's six, five, 220 pounds and he throws gas. So that would be fun.

I'm looking at his last five starts on baseball reference. I know. Six and two-thirds, seven, six, seven, seven. I mean, that's like a Met Starter now pitching 15 in a game. Like, seven innings three times and six and two-thirds another time, that no, literally it never happens ever. Like five and two-thirds. He's like, all right, come on out, Brooks Raley. But I looked up Brooks Raley's page. There's a seven-year gap where he's in Korea, I guess, in his career. I didn't know this. Yes. He resurrected his career with the Tampa Bay raise. That's one of the best moves.

That's one of the best moves David Stern's made this year, is that Brooks rarely got hurt, and they signed him to a two-year deal, and he recovered over long periods of the season only to come back late in the year. And he's been probably the second most reliable pitcher in their bullpen other than Diaz. And by the way, Diaz two days ago,

oh my God. That was unreal. That was world-class Mariano Rivera-style closing. Five out of six batters struck out. and he looked like he had Satan's pitchfork. He was amazing. Well, today he only gave up that little weird blooper, not even a blooper.

I know what the hell that was, just random. He's feeling it right now. Soft idea. Well, good, because he might need to throw nine in the Marlin series. That's true. Over the three games. It would help if, like, can we not run into these fielders who are just making one incredible play after another?

There were like three Cubs diving catches tonight. The jerk face from the Nationals who robbed us in center, field two times. I've had enough of him for my whole life. Can we just catch a couple of breaks? Our defense meanwhile, Soto's running around, like not catching but McNeil's throwing the ball all over the place. Can we just get some luck? Give us

some luck. Why are we running into Brooks Robinson and freaking Jim Edmonds every game? Even Carson Kelly, the catcher making that catch today on the pop fly in the sixth inning. I was just the foul ball. I was like, why are these guys playing so hard? Why are the

Cubs playing so hard? They're already in the playoffs. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's because we're not used to it because the Mets are just not a good defensive team. They're just not. They just have too many guys out there who are flawed and we're seeing it. Playing Viantos last night at third base, ridiculous.

You know, two nights ago, the outfield being Brandon, Nimmo in center field, Starling, Marte, and left field and Wonsoto and right field. That's got to be the least range covered in the history of the outfield. I mean, that's pathetic. And yet, they just battered pitchers

because those guys can hit. And that's why they're in the lineup. And you're right, their offense is awesome. So I don't know, maybe if we just get there, home runs win Major League Baseball Playoff games. It's just a fact. We've seen it, especially since they went into this tournament style, teams that hit for power advance.

It's not like baseball used to be, where it was small ball and your bunting guys over and your stealing bases. You can still do that. But home runs are usually the difference in playoff baseball. And the Mets can hit home runs. So I don't know, just get there. Soto was 0 for 5 today. But the first three outbats, I thought he was like a half inch away.

from home runs. Like he had good swings. I feel a Soto game coming this weekend where he can win a game by himself almost, like a four RBI, two runs, enough to get us over the finish line in one of these games. But look, I mean, I'm terrified. Like this three games stretch, and the thing about baseball is like there's just no let up, man. There's no let up.

Like we feel great right now. In 24 hours, the Reds could win and the Mets could lose it. we could feel like the depths of misery. There's just no break. Yeah, and I mean, the Mets are throwing out a 24-year-old starter who's starting his fourth professional baseball game up against a former Siyang winner on the road. They shouldn't win that game.

We shouldn't have any confidence. That's a terrifying match-up. And yet, I'll be watching every pitch. I have my 30th high school reunion this weekend. Oh, wow. And there's an event tomorrow night at a bar. And I'm like, am I going to make a scene at some point? Like, if this goes bad, he's like, is who's that, is that that nerd from 30 years ago that's just like,

come on. You're a star, Zach. What do you mean? No one's going to say that. Tomorrow was actually my, my 16th wedding anniversary. So I actually don't. Thank you. I actually don't know how much Mets baseball I'll be watching, to be totally honest with you.

My dad used to have a rule. He's a Red Sox fan. You used to have a rule that if the Red Sox were ahead after the seventh or eighth inning, just go to bed. Only bad things can happen after that. If bad things happen, I'll wake up and learn about it tomorrow. I'm going to sleep well in the meantime. There's something, there's something to that. That's the problem with West Coast living as a New York sports fan. I can't go to bed at 6.30. They're in the seventh inning. That's not going to work for me. Lindor, 30-30. My daughter was still awake when he hit the home run. She was very, very excited.

We high-fived. It was great. He's on fire. He seems just like the perfect guy. I love Francisco Lindor. He cranked that home run, too. That was a seed that he hit off in Managa. Yeah, he's the best. I feel so lucky to be rooting for him, and the Mets don't have a long history of guys like him, and pretty much he almost always shows up what it matters,

and he's been really, really good in September, so it's been fun to see him really turn it on. Can I tell you a baseball topic that I once studied in a way that NBA analytics people study, like the two-for-one and fouling up three? sure i want studied um taking out your one of your two best hitters for a pinch runner to like either tie to if he's the tying run or the even more so the go ahead run in like the ninth inning i feel like it always comes back around to that guy's spot in the lineup

and i'm like man i wish that guy were in and instead like louisa coonias up and this fucking sucks like they did it with alonzo recently and they did it with vioes Giantos a few weeks ago. I have no idea what the answer is. Probably the answer is the simplest answer, which is the run in front of you is so valuable that it outweighs anything that comes after it. But I just, it just, I don't, it feels bad to me in my gut. I don't like it. The Cubs did it tonight. They took Michael Bush out to pinch hit Justin Turner, former Met's great Justin Turner. And that could have, you know, that didn't help them in the long run because they didn't have Bush's power coming off at the end of the game with Diaz out there. And, and,

Yeah, I mean, I think we could let you loose Sloan sports conference style on baseball. Ten things I think I think about MLB strategy. I feel like you could do it, man. You've been living and dying with this team during the void of my baseball fandom. How long was it? Amanda was asking me on the big picture.

How long were you away? I'm like 20 years almost. It was 20. It was 20. It was 24 till now, basically. Like, so you, like the 2007 collapse, these other collapses, I just wasn't paying attention.

You lucked out, man. That was really, the 06 loss in the NLCS through 08 is probably the darkest time in franchise history. So my point is, like, you have experience with this level of fear and tension and foreboding for an 82 and 77 team going to the final weekend. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wanted to talk about any things from the last couple of weeks you wanted to talk about, anything you want to think about the Marlin series? series, I just, I will leave the last word to you. Glass half empty, the most painful thing that could happen would be for either Pete Alonzo or Edwin Diaz to be responsible for something bad. Because this could be the end of the line for either of them.

There's a lot of speculation that that could have been Pete's last homestand three games ago. You and I, since you started doing this segment, have been talking about Pete a lot, just how beloved Pete is, how important he is to the fan base, but how he doesn't, maybe doesn't fit in the long-term plans of the team full of 20-something hot prospects. I think they'd be crazy not to bring him back, but I wouldn't be shocked. And what I don't want is for him to have a negative moment at the end. Likewise for Diaz, Diaz's arc as a met is so strange. And he was so bad after that deal for Jared Kellanick when he came over with Robinson

Canoe. And he just turned it around. And this is something that very rarely happens. in New York when a high-profile athlete is traded to the city and he is terrible for two seasons and becomes a pariah and he just turned the whole story around and became one of the two or three best closers in baseball for the last five years and I don't want the season to turn I don't want it to turn on a bad end of the DS moment like I care I'm too invested in him being successful and being good so I'm just hoping against hope that even if they lose it's not in

a lull Mets fashion it's in like a normal. We lost eight to four, and it was just the other team played better than us today. It was not a dropped pop-up at first base. It was not a blown save on a wild pitch. I wanted to be something normal. That's all I can really ask for is be normal. How does that make you feel? Makes me feel good.

It reminds me one of the things I wanted to mention was we just feel the chasm of emotion between, if we had just pulled out one of those two nationals games, both of which we had chances to win late in the games, just get a run home from third with less than two outs. I can't forgive Nimmo. That was brutal, him striking out in that spot. You get one of those games, and this weekend feels like it has to be an absolute catastrophe

for them not to make the playoffs. That's how big those games were. But, you know, this three-game stretch broke right. Maybe the next one will. Sean Fennacy. one way or another, the next Mets corner is going to be emotional. So buckle up, enjoy the weekend, fingers crossed. Let's go Mets.

Let's go Mets. Thanks, Zach. This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. Service Now's AI specialist tackle that work, request handled, cases closed,

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Millions of fines each with a story. eBay, things people love. All right, joining us now on the Zach Lowe show, the head coach of the defending Eastern Conference Champion, Indiana Pacers. Rick Carlisle, how are you doing, sir? I'm well. How are you, sir? I am doing all right.

I'm ready to go. Are you ready to go? I'm ready. I don't do well with time off. I'd sooner work all year round. I'm ready to get back at it. Well, you didn't have as much time off as 28 other teams, which is one of the good things about getting into game 7 of the NBA finals. So I'm going to start with, I have people still in my life in the NBA, front office people, coaches, agents, players, talking about your team and how you played, how you coalesced in the postseason.

what can we take from that run that the Pacers had? And I'm wondering you've won a championship. You've been deep in the playoffs a lot of times. You are approaching 1,000 wins as a head coach, which we'll get to. So you've had a lot of good teams, a lot of different kinds of good teams. Have you reflected on last year's Pacer's team in a way that's any different from any of your previous teams? Yeah, good question. It's hard not to reflect on it during the summer.

had more people approach me than ever before, probably including our 2011 championship team, just simply wanting to say, hey, I watched your team play. It was inspirational to me. The word inspirational was repeated very frequently. Things like it restored my faith in the NBA game as an unselfish game, you know, like stuff like that. And it was. it was heartwarming to hear those things. Certainly disappointing to get right, you know, to get right there, you know, in game seven and have what happened, happened with Tyrese's injury, et cetera.

But, you know, an amazing experience. I don't know that we were favored in any of the series we played in. And if you go down through the list of games that were played, you know, I know we weren't favored in any of the final. games. We may have had a few games we were sprinkled in as favorites, you know, at home and some of the other series, but I'm not even certain of that. So, you know, it's an amazing group of guys. You know, the separator for us is what our guys are willing to do that a lot of other teams weren't willing to do, and that was to play full court, physical defense and commit to a style

in an attitude of how we were going to play. When did you realize along that journey, and maybe it was in the regular season, maybe people like me were slow to realize it, that you had a championship level team. Like I've described what happened to you guys as like a rare sort of moment of sports magic where the pieces sort of click into place,

the players discover like if we played this way, we can actually beat anybody. And, you know, it was an underdog story until it wasn't. And at some point it wasn't. At some point, it was just like, no, this team's actually just a championship level team. I mean, you took the 68 win Thunder to the very brink. So that's self-evident. When did you start to think in your head? Or do you just not think that way? Is it just like, I got to beat the bucks in game four tomorrow? Yeah, I mean, at this point in my career, I'm pretty process driven. You know, getting into thought

processes that are results oriented is dangerous. You know, the start to our season was difficult. We had injuries. We had a little bit of hangover from the previous year. Tyrese had a slow start. There were just a lot of things that were not clicking, and it was a difficult schedule. And then in December we started to get healthy and started to turn things around.

And similar to the previous year, the game before Christmas, we got back to 500 from being below 500. And then, you know, January, I think we had the best record in the league. We may have lost one game or something like that or two games in January. And that got our season going. I don't think we had a back-to-back in January. That helped. And then we carried momentum into, you know, February, March, April.

And, you know, as things were going along from January 1st on, we, really improved our defense. We were a better defensive team and certainly a better overall team with all of our pieces. That was another thing. Tyrese had started to get his rhythm and his footing back. Yel Siakum was really great all year. And then, you know, as has been documented pretty well from January 1 through the end of the regular season, the two best teams record-wise were us in Oklahoma City.

Now, that didn't mean that we were destined to be a finals team, but it was certainly as you look back at it, there was evidence there that there could be something special. In all those conversations you had with people around the league and probably even outside of it about your team and your run, was there any very unexpected one? Did someone reach out outside of basketball, in basketball, whatever? They're like, man, I can't believe this person's even talking to me about this or not. Did someone say something about your team to you that, like, you hadn't even thought about your team in that kind of way? Yeah, there were some really, I mean, I was taken aback by some of the text messages that I got from some of the coaches that I really, really respect around the league.

Just talking about how different we play, how, you know, and the word inspire was used frequently, you know. And so it's a credit to the players. You know, it's, there were, I don't know the exact number. We were in the mid-900s last year, and this is on the Hawkeye system, you can probably look it up,

but that we had three guys picking up full court in the back court. And this is regular season, I believe, and playoffs. And the next closest team was somewhere in the mid-400s. And so, you know, the separator for us, was what we were willing to do

that a lot of other teams were unwilling to do. And, you know, it's pretty amazing that this group were, you know, two years ago, people really weren't sure exactly who we were. We were playing fast. We had Tyrese. We hadn't traded for Pascal yet. No one was really sure where this was going.

We were great on offense and really not very poor on defense. But we made great strides defensively. And we've grown together as a group. And, you know, I've had the comment said to me, and I don't just say this because it's my opinion. But, you know, the way we play over the last couple years has changed the game some And it's changed people's view on roster construction because, you know, we aren't a super team with three superstars and a bunch of role players, you know. We're built differently.

Kevin Pritchard, Chad Buchanan, done a great job of getting us hard playing, great people that are unselfish and that are willing to do things. You know, others aren't. How do you reinvent that for this coming season? Tyrese is going to miss the season. Your starting center, Miles Turner now plays for the Bucks. You've already said Mathrin is going to start. You said that on Caitlin Cooper's podcast. I know we have a mutual affection for Caitlin.

How do you, what can you take from that team and bring it to this team? Or is this just like I got to reimagine, particularly on offense? How do you reimagine the offense without the guy who sort of, the identity of the offense flows so much from how Tyrese plays? Yeah, there will be a lot of differences. there certainly are some unknowns. As we move into this, you know, one of our luxuries,

superpowers, I guess, was that Andrew Nemhardt could start as a two-guard, play off the ball, be a primary ball handler as a secondary ball handler, and guard the best perimeter player. So now, you know, he'll be starting, he'll be the primary playmaker, and probably still have the responsibility of guarding the best player from the defensive element aside of it.

And so so much will be on him. So we've got to alleviate pressure from him. You know, the elements that make any team successful are going to be constant. You know, we've got to move the ball. We've got to take care of the ball. We've got to rebound the ball. and we've got to find a way to play with pace and tempo. And Tyrese is such a natural pace generator, tempo generator,

that, you know, as we get at start training camp, you know, this coming Tuesday, you know, figuring out ways and creative ways, as you say, as you suggest, to do those things is going to be at the top of our list. and we get a lot of work to do. Do you have a favor going into camp for the starting center spot, or is it wide open? I'd say it's pretty wide open. You know, we're, our guys are playing

pick up games now. We're watching a lot. I will say that, you know, Isaiah Jackson's made a really nice recovery from his Achilles injury. So has James Wiseman. Jay Huff is an NBA shooter and shoots it easy from long range as a center that can both make threes and protect the rim. And we got Tony Bradley who really emerged in last year's playoffs as a guy that could play the game and play within our team concept. He's the best rebounder we have on the entire roster.

And he's experienced and he's got a really great feel for defense. So we got a lot of pieces, a lot of elements. There have been some years where, you know, I have coach teams that were definitely centered by committee teams. I think it was in 13, 14 with Dallas. We had Sam Dallin Bair, Duane Blair, and Brain and Wright. What a great NBA Madlibs of centers. Your post-Tyson Chandler Center position roulette was a lot of football.

Zaza-Pachulia got involved for a little bit. It was a great Madlibs. Yeah, I mean, but the one year we had, those three that I mentioned, all three players played in just about every game. I mean, and they, you know, they, they were pros. They kind of got together and said, hey, look, we're a team. We got a hold, we got to hold our ground as a position. They pulled for one another, and yet they were competitive.

and so it was a pretty cool thing that they did. And, you know, that year we got to the playoffs. I think we took San Antonio to seven in the first round. Sure did. Which was, you know, which was quite a feat at the time because no one else got beyond five games against them as a player. It remains 11 years later one of the more, I mean, I'm going to say this, you wouldn't say this, one of the more inexplicable playoff outcomes.

I still don't know how you did it. That's the series. I believe Vince Carter has the, the buzzer-beater corner three in that series, right? He did. He did. And, you know, we were, we were right there. And so it was a tremendous series.

And then, you know, we got to Game 7 in San Antonio. And it just was a little bit too much. But it was obviously very proud of that team, similar to this year's team in a lot of ways. Speaking of Game 7, we're going to bounce around and have some. fun. Kevin Pritchard in his in it, I don't know when he did this media availability over the summer told a story that I had heard before about the locker room in game seven. He's nervous. He's talking to Tyrese and Tyrese says to him, don't worry, I got this. I got this for us. Did you have a similar conversation with Tyrese before the game? Like, do you remember anything?

Do you remember anything like that or do you remember feeling like you guys settle into the game? You take an early lead. He hits a bunch of threes. Do you ever remember feeling like? Do you ever remember like, all right, this game is there for us? Or did he ever verbalized that to you like that? No, I didn't. Look, my relationship with Tyrese, you know, the really, the most compelling moment of that relationship was when he came here and the trade in late January of 22, he was shocked that they traded him.

when you travel west to east, you don't get to the east until late in the day because of all the time change stuff. And so we met at a restaurant. It was him, buddy healed. I think Tristan Thompson was in the deal as well. And Ty was the last guy to walk in. I went up and I shook hands. I looked in the eye and I said, I know how you feel. I know this is a shocking situation.

I said, but look me in the eyes and watch what I'm telling you. This is your team. You have the opportunity of a lifetime here. I'm turning the keys over to you. I don't want to call plays. I don't want to run a lot of plays. You're running this thing. And I am giving you my trust right now going forward.

And so to his credit, I mean, he just, he took the keys and ran and he jumped into stuff in the community right away. He, and, you know, he's become another, a second iteration of Reggie Miller in many ways. And it's not just a similarity of their physical build and some of their affect stuff. and their flare for the moment with choke signs and all that stuff. You know, this is just, there are just some really interesting similarities. And so, you know, as this thing has all gone along, he knows that I have implicit trust in him that at the end of games, whenever possible, we're not calling timeouts,

we're putting the ball in his hands to create. And in many cases, he and Pascal will get into a pick-and-roll situation or something. But Tyrese is the guy that's making the decision and oftentimes taking the shot as you've seen and everyone has seen. And then, you know, it all culminated in this absolutely unbelievable run of shot making, you know, that really, I think began in late March. when he hit the four-point play against Milwaukee, you know, with the flag football play. Yep, yep, yep. And then on into the playoffs.

And, you know, the three against, well, the game winner against Milwaukee, the three against Cleveland, you know, multiple shots against the York, the game winner in game one of the finals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, what I've learned, Zach, about a lot of these moments,

you get in the locker room in game seven and I'll tell you this story and I've I said I told the story on my radio show the Tuesday after the finals that you know when when you get to a point where you

have a deciding game in a finals you're trying to figure out the right atmosphere to try to create in the locker room before the game the right thing to say if anything. In 2011, we were at Miami in game six, and we had done a music video for each round.

And so we let the music videos loop before the game for 45 or 50 minutes. And then we had a meeting time. And then, you know, when it was time, when it was time to meet, I said to the team, two things. Play your game and play your ass off. Let's go.

And that was it. And then interestingly and look the other thing is, you know, you and I are speaking today. I don't know when this runs, but you know, we're talking on a Thursday and the great Nancy Leonard passed away yesterday.

Slick Leonard's longtime wife. Yeah, and Nancy was, she was a defiant symbol of hope for this franchise. She was the one who came up with the idea to have a telethon back in the early 80s to raise money because the team was about to go into default. They needed to, I think, sell 8,028 season tickets to keep the team solvent.

And so they had a telethon. You've probably seen clips of it. You'll hear more stories about it now that she's passed. The team remains solvent. And then the Simon family bought the team not long afterwards. And so Nancy had a great deal to do with the team even being here today. And so anyway, as you go from game to game, you know, in the finals, you get a lot of information from people. You know, you get a lot of text messages.

You get a lot of this. You get a lot of that. And so I got a message one day from Mark Monteth, who used to cover the Pacers for the Indie Star. I think he now writes for the Indiana Business Journal. and I don't know Mark, many, many years back to the 90s when I came here as an assistant for Larry Bird. And he sent me a text message that telling me what Slick Leonard had said to all three of his ABA championship teams before they went out to play the deciding game and all three series were on the road. And so before the game in game seven, we put together about a two or two and a half minute. in it, history of the Pacers,

a big part of it was Nancy and Slick in the telethon and they sell the 8,020th ticket, and then everybody is in tears and all that kind of stuff. And then there's Miles Turner giving Nancy a hug after we beat the Nixon game six here at Cambridge.

And it's just, there's this voice that's narrating the whole thing. And then just want to give the guys, you know, a feel for exactly, you know, what the moment was all about and how everything had culminated. And now it was just time to just let go and just leave it out there. And as I brought them together, I said, I'm going to tell you guys the thing that the greatest coach in Pacea's history said three times to his team before they went out on the road for a deciding game. In 1970, against the L.A. team in the ABA.

in 1972 against the New York Nets in game six at New York. And then fittingly, 1973 in game seven at Denver. And it was one sentence, walk out there like you own the damn place. And we got together and we went out and we had not had a good start offensively to any of the games in the series. You know, we had kind of had to crawl back in all the games. in some way, shape, or form. And so we start out, and Tyrese hits three-threes.

You know, they call timeout, a four and a half minutes into the game. We were up 14 to 10, and the place was a bit shook, you know. And we had gotten the start that we needed to have, you know, in game seven. And look, we've won game sevens on the road. We've beat New York the previous year in game seven of the road. So our team had plenty of belief. and then, you know, three or three and a half minutes later, the injury happened. And, you know, that's what a devastating moment.

But I thought, at all things considered. And Tyrese was trying to get up the floor and walk off the court on his own power. He did not want to be carried off or anything like that. As it turned out, he needed to be helped off. but at halftime we came back there he was on crutches he had a boot on and he was

defiantly encouraging of the other guys we had a one point lead at halftime and you know it was 24 minutes and we just simply couldn't get there we just simply couldn't get over the hump the third quarter was rough they hit us with a bunch of shots and we had some

we had some issues with turn turnovers, et cetera. And so, you know, it's a rough ending. But when it was all said and done, I've never been more proud to be a part of a group, an organization, a group of guys than that. I mean, this had dawned to the very last day that you could possibly play. We had decided we were going to go home that night, win or lose, and we didn't have exit meetings or anything. It was just time for everybody to get away and decompress. but a great feeling of pride and, you know, memorable moments as difficult as some of them are. You mentioned the halftime locker room. A couple of people have told me, Tyrese was obviously in there,

and there was some curiosity about how is the team going to react to seeing him? You described him just now as defiant. I've heard also that he was kind of wearing the sorrow pretty openly. He's got the hoodie on. He'd been crying. He obviously knows what's happened. Were you worried that seeing the team seeing him like that was going to be like almost better off-site unseen? Like, let's just focus on the game and not what happened in the first half? No, absolutely not.

I mean, he was one of the big reasons we had gotten to that moment. He needed to be in that locker room. Look, he was disappointed. There was emotion. but my view of it was that he was defiantly encouraging of the guys in that locker room. And, you know, he was, he had as great a belief as anybody that we could still do it, even with him not being out there. I mean, we had had stretches where we had pulled out games without him during the year. You know, we had one really crazy game in Cleveland in January where I think we broke one of

one of their winning streaks, they had so many huge winning streaks. And he actually went out before halftime. And then the second half, you know, we were able to pull away. But, yeah, I don't, I don't agree with any notion that he shouldn't have been there or anything else. I mean, we all, you know, it's, there's just, there's an element of, of bare naked emotion, bare naked reality. and the reality was that we were still 18. We were still one, and that's how we needed to look at it. Do you remember anything about the huddle after he gets injured?

You probably all know what it is. Was there any precedent for a moment like that in your career? Do you even remember what you said to the team or if there was a player that sort of took ownership of that huddle? Like, how do you even – because it's not like you get a longer-than-usual stoppage of the game. You have to, like, go back and play the game. What do you remember about that huddle?

Well, as long as national TV timeouts are, I think they're 315, a lot of us went out on the court. There was a certain amount of time that passed there. We didn't have a whole lot of time to talk once we came back. Our game wasn't going to change in terms of our strategy or our basic concepts. It was simply a case where we were going to need to replace one of the best players in the world with another player, and we're going to have to find a way to do it together. And the messaging was pretty simple. You know, we've been here before.

We've played without Tyrese before. Let's bear down and do our basics the best that we can and stick together and go hard. I mean, this is a moment that. is about the team. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast, because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to

life. Learn more at adobe.com slash firefly. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and need something ASAP? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game, a last minute trip with the crew, spontaneous date. That's when Prime's same day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need. Delivered to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas. Terms apply. Has Tyrese taught you anything about the WWE? Has he gotten you into it at all?

Were you into wrestling as a kid and you've tried to educate him on some of the old-time wrestlers? Has there been any overlap in that interest? Yeah, I mean, you know, this is a question I wasn't ready for. That's good. That's part of my job. Yeah, no, I, you know, it's, I grew up watching wrestling here and there on television. We didn't have cable TV where I grew up. We were up near Canada.

We had a thing. We had to turn a thing to turn the antenna toward one of three cities, and two of them were Canadian. You know, so it was, there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of programming up there. But he is, he's completely, it's, he's, he's completely in on it. And it's interesting to me, the whole culture of it. I think it's amazing what those guys do, what those women do, how they throw their bodies around, all that kind of stuff. All of the drama that's created and everything else.

I tip my hat to that industry for being able to do what they do. I thought that I thought the, I thought the thing that Tyrese and Brunson the year before was kind of the the epitome of the whole thing. And so, I mean, I've learned more about it, I guess, to answer your question. But I don't, I wouldn't, I can't say that I'm anywhere near as invested in it as him. But I have, I have great respect for what they're doing with that whole thing. Well, they just had a big event, I think at Gainbridge and Tyrese was there. Maybe it wasn't a gambit, but I'm guessing you did not attend. I wasn't back in town yet. I did see it. You know, I mean, Tyrese is all over all that stuff.

And everybody assumes that he's going to be involved in some way, shape, or form. And then, you know, Tyrese and I have both gotten to be good friends with Pat McAfee. And, you know, Pat's sometimes ends up in the ring with that stuff. And so Pat's involved, too. And so, yeah, the whole thing is, it's quite a spectacle. But no, I was not there. You mentioned McAfee. I think it was game four of the finals, one of the more hard fought games and a win for Oklahoma City a comeback win,

where he gets on the mic and basically cuts like a wrestling promo at a pretty critical point of the game that actually runs long. And I did a podcast with Bill Simmons afterwards at his hotel room. And Bill was like, I don't know. Like that McAfee thing, it ran so long. I don't know if it disrupted Indiana's rhythm. And I know you, coach, well enough to know you have standards for how you want things to flow and outside noise is not super welcome. Like, do you remember that?

Was there anything to Bill's theory that that threw you off? No, one thing I learned about all this is that, you know, you learn that there's certain things that are, you know, elements of what we do that are just a zoo and that you can't even begin to hope to control them. Pat McAfee has been such a great. advocate for the Pacers, you know, his presence at games. He gets on the mic and fires up the crowd pretty regularly in the fourth quarters. And it's helped us win way more games than it's caused us to lose, you know.

And I don't think there's anything to any kind of theory that that threw us off in that particular game. Oklahoma hit some ridiculous shots down the stretch to win that game. But we need Pat McAfee doing what he's doing and to continue to. to do what he's doing. And maybe the problem was he didn't do it long enough in that game. To speak of the zoo, as you put it, and especially when you get to the biggest stages, it's just like the NBA takes over. There's a whole apparatus that controls everything.

But Tyrese was filmed all year for the Netflix thing starting five. And, you know, they got cameras following him around. They're in the locker room. The locker room is sacred territory. And someone told me, asked Rick about this, that Tyrese hits the game winner in Oklahoma City in game one. The camera crew is coming in. this has been a source of if not tension then just sort of like we have to deal with this all year

and someone remembers you saying like look if he's going to hit shots like that like these guys can come into locker room all that one I don't care anymore if he's going to keep hitting shots like that do you remember that? Something like that yeah something like that I'm not a big proponent of

a lot of celebrating in wins during a series before the series is won I just think it's, there are obvious, there are obvious challenges to it. You know, you, you throw bulletin board material out there for the opponent. It, you know, there are elements of it that they can get a team feeling a little too good about themselves, you know, those kinds of things.

But, you know, the whole Netflix thing, and this is another, this is another reality that is a part of today's game. I mean, podcasting is going on everywhere. You know, the fever are building a new practice facility. They're going to have a content creation room and a podcasting room. And we're going to make some changes in additions to our practice facility and the fieldhouse. We had a meeting two days ago about, you know, do we need a content room and do we need a podcast room? And my initial reaction was, huh?

And then I thought about it and said, you know what? We do. I mean, this is something that, you know, may be a tiebreaker when you get into free agency with a player who has a podcast, you know. And so these things are reality. And our job, my job now is to normalize this stuff as much as possible on the one hand without a lot. allowing it to go too far the other way, you know. And so there is a balance there. You know, like you get to the finals.

There's robotic cameras everywhere and all that kind of stuff. And so as a coach, you've got to be pretty measured with what you say when, knowing that, you know, any of this stuff could go live. And there are instances where you can have sign off on that, but there are somewhere you can't where you don't. And so, but it's all part of it. And look, I've been president of the Coaches Association for 20 years. This is my 20th year.

And I've told them that this is my last year. So I'm done at the end of December. I've been talking to our coaches for really since 2007, when this iteration of access began telling them that, look, we're not only going to, our job description is not. only that we're going to need to coach games. We're going to need to be on camera. We're going to have to be performers on camera.

We're going to have to have to deliver, you know, the messaging that we want to deliver to our team, to our fans in those moments, you know, without going willy-nilly and losing it. And so, but, you know, those of us that accept this as reality moving forward are going to thrive. and if we try to fight it, we're going to lose. You know, we're going to lose that battle.

And so, you know, now with Instagram, with Twitter X, with TikTok, all those, all those elements, there's so much going on. And as a coach, you just got to decide how much of it do you want to expose yourself to? Because you're not going to control it. And, you know, but the best thing is to accept it. but also talk to your team about you know balancing it because those things are never are never going to be as important as the game itself a couple more rapid-fire phone ones I'll let you go I was told to ask you about this I think I know the story but I want it from your perspective because it's a funny one I was told ask coach Carlisle about the time that he tried to fight a TV in the

room in Washington, D.C. at a Wizards game and the TV one. Yeah. Well, look, there's, I don't know, what's the theory you have six bullets a year, whatever it is? We had this really frustrating game in Washington last year. When we looked at the schedule, you know, in August of 24 when it came out, we talked about it as a staff. I mean, this is going to be a hellaciously difficult game because Washington's getting better as a team. They're young. They're very well coached. They have a defiant demeanor that they're developing, all that kind of stuff.

The night before the game, we had a national TV game against the Knicks at home, which was starting a half hour later. When you fly into D.C., you go to Dallas. It's a long bus ride. You know, it's just you're going to get to the hotel closer to 3 and than 2.30, most likely. is this is going to be a beast of a game. And so, and so, you know, we came in at halftime. We were down, I don't know, what we were down, 15 or something like that.

And, yeah, so I went a little bit nuts. And I forget exactly what I did with the TV, hit it or just something else. I think, I think multiple things. I wouldn't say the TV won. I would say the TV survived. Okay, that's a good way to put it. It was one of those TVs that was on a pivot from what I was. told, and you tried to pull it off, and it didn't come off, and then you punched it, and it did

the thing where, like, when you punch, like, a plasma TV or whatever, like, the screen changes color and then changes back. And you look, like you said, bullets, another window into your competitive soul. And this is like, I can relate so deeply to this. I think this is true. I went to the video to try to verify it. It's a little grainy, but I think it's true. The in-season tournament, two seasons ago now, where you guys make the finals. And you and I have talked about that, and you've talked about it in other places, is like, that would be a season tournament. is a real sort of like galvanizing moment for your group like big stage everyone's attention is on you big moments and you rise up to the challenge you make the finals in Vegas against the lakers

you've been wearing i think as most teams do your city edition jerseys and the matching polos you can you know where i'm going with this already uh the entire in-season tournament run you get to the finals and for whatever reason if it was like a jersey matching issue with the lakers or whatever the league says you guys can't wear your city additions you just have to wear your normal jerseys. I think it was white jerseys. You can't wear them. And every other, every coach wore the polos that go with the zip ups that go with the normal jerseys. And you and your superstition and or defiance are like, you know what, I'm going to wear the city edition version of the zip up just because it's, it's been good luck for us. I'm not changing it. And I think,

I went to the video, I think your polo does look a little different. I love that. I would, I would do, that's exactly how I would be if I were in professional sports. Yeah. Well, getting back to the Washington story for a second. I've learned I've never to punch anything. That's a broken hand. I think I went flat hand into the TV and I may have even done it with two hands.

Okay. And so, but yeah, the TV survived. Luckily, I survived as well. On the in-season thing, yeah, I wasn't going to change the shirt. There's no way. I don't remember exactly what happened there.

So you're saying the rest of the staff wore black or whatever and I was wearing white. Yes, you have a different polo on, but it's slightly, it's like gray black with like a little, the zippers a different color than the other zippers. Well, well, luckily Barron Spruel and I have

a great relationship and he was understanding of that moment. But, you know, that was, you're right, that, you know, that experience and building up to the finals of that was a big part of, you know, the steps that we took, you know, along

way. You know, first of all, getting to the conference finals in 24 and then and then this, this past season getting to the NBA finals. So, yeah, cool stuff. Last one and then I'll let you go in. I could go for everybody. I know you're a busy guy. You are sitting 11th all time in regular season wins with 993 wins. You are going to pass 1,000 very soon, obviously. You are going to pass Rick Adelman and move into 10th all time. You are probably, you are probably if you coach long enough going to pass Larry Brown, who replaced you in Detroit and move into ninth all time, have you started thinking about just like, wow, you know, I was a player in college at UVA. I was a great player, played in the NBA on some great Celtics teams and

in New York or New Jersey as well for a few years. I can't, I, like, I'm going to be a thousand wins as a coach. Is that set in on you or like what you've accomplished and what it means to you? Yeah, you know, I've, I've, I've learned. not to look at that stuff, not to count. You know, at some point when you get on this kind of journey, you feel guided, you know, in different ways. I'm not a super religious person, but I do believe in spirituality. You know, there's a little bit of that.

Here's a story, you know, in 1970s. It's like I grew up loving the NBA game from afar, but we didn't have access to it on television. I mean, I followed it in magazines and stuff like that. To see an NBA game, we had to get in the car and drive 10 or 15 minutes into the city of Ogdensburg and go to a friend's house and watch it on cable, you know. And whenever we did that, it was like larger than life. In 1977, my mom and dad took me and my brother on a trip.

We went to Buffalo to watch because my favorite team was the Sixers. and Dr. Jay was my favorite player. We went to Buffalo to watch the Sixers play The Braves. I had gotten what I thought was a press credential from the local, from our local newspaper to sit down to the court. It worked for half the game in the second half they threw me out and they had to go spit in the stands. But I took some snapshots with a Kodadak camera that had to be,

a film that had to be developed regularly. And one of the pictures that came out of it was a picture of, It's a picture of Chuck Daly, who was the assistant coach with Philadelphia, standing like this, you know, with one of his really nice suits. I was going to say, hey, you already have a suit game? Yeah, I mean, you know, Chuck always, always dressed us well. And I didn't even know who Chuck was. But I went through the pictures. I had that picture.

Doug Collins was another favorite player of mine. And then there was Dr. J. And so I have three pictures at my home in Dallas still. One is Dr. J. One's Doug and one is Chuck. Anyway, the next day we drove to Philadelphia for a game where Philadelphia played Cleveland, who was coached by Bill Fitch. And so, you know, Dr. Jay had a great game in that one.

Philadelphia beats Cleveland. And then we drove to Boston. There was a day in between all three of these games. We stayed over and we saw the Celtics play against the Cleveland Cavaliers again. And so there's Bill Fitch. So these two guys, Chuck Daly and Bill Fitch, were I was right there with these people. I mean, with no idea that ever, that I would ever possibly not only go to the training camp of the Bill Fitch team, but be cut and hired as a coach on the same phone call and then be retained by Chuck Bailey three years later.

I mean, you talk about reverential, you know, it's a master class. learning the game from those two guys for the first five years of your coaching career. And so anyway, it's just the game has inspired me. You know, it's the ride that I've been on. I mean, you know, drafted by Boston. Boston was a team I hated. And I drafted in the third round. There's no longer a third round in the NBA draft.

And then, but I end up making the team and then, you know, develop a relationship with Larry Bird, which turns into the opportunity to be a lead assistant when he went to Indiana as the head coach. And then he hired me as the head coach a few years later in Indy. And so, and then when I came back this time, you know, I think Herb, Simon and Kevin Pritcher called Larry and when I became available and said, hey, you know, what do you think about, you think you think? And Larry called them and said, well, you got to talk to him, you know, and so that brought me back here again. And so these relationships, but you talk about inspirational, you know, Chuck Daly, Bill Fitch, Larry Bird, all this stuff,

and, you know, and here I am talking to you. Well, another inspirational figure. Oh, stop. Although you were very... And Caitlin Cooper, I get to talk to her once in a while, too. Yeah, you were very nice to me during what I will call my paid sabbatical from the NBA. Like a coach, I had a nice paid sabbatical from the NBA, like a fired coach. Look, look, you're going to make the Hall of Fame as a coach.

I don't need to tell you that. But I only say this because I said it in print. I've said it on my podcast. Just an all-time great coach. The adaptability stands out as much as anything. Your teams have played all kinds of different styles. The success speaks for itself. You are busy.

You've got to plan a whole season without your best player and your franchise center now plays for the bucks. Go to work. Thank you for your time. Good luck this season. Congrats on a great run last season. Rick Carlisle, head coach at Indianapolis. Thank you, sir. Always a pleasure, Zach. Take care.

All right, that's it for this week, three episodes this week on the Zach Lowe Show. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you to Sean Fennessey for staying up and watching the Mets with me. Thanks to the Mets for not blowing the game tonight. Please don't blow the season. Come on, come on, come on. Thanks to Rick Carlisle for taking time out of his busy schedule as he prepares the Pacers to follow up their super successful season without Tyreys Halliburton and without Miles Turner. A big challenge for him. Thanks to Jesse and Jonathan on production. And thanks to all of you for listening to or watching The Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you next week.

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