The Zach Lowe Show - Shai Saves the Thunder, and the NBA Finals Are Now 2-2: All the Drama in the NBA With Bill Simmons.

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

After a riveting Game 4 of the NBA Finals in Indianapolis, Bill Simmons joins Zach to break it all down (1:52): Did tonight’s game decide the NBA title? They discuss Shai’s stellar MVP performance (16:51) and adjustments from both teams as it’s now a best-of-three for the championship. The pair close the night out with some groggy late-night offseason thoughts (57:57), featuring Giannis, KD, Booker, and … LeBron?! All that and more from Zach and Bill. Host: Zach Lowe Guest: Bill Simmons Producers: Jesse Aron, Jonathan Frias, and Kai Grady The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, I got Bill Simmons. He's right there in the same room as me. We were just at Pacers Thunder game four. It's down to three games for the NBA title, an absolute war of a challenge. an absolute war of attrition, defensive battle. I'm drained. I'm emotionally drained and physically drained.

I didn't play in the game. Are you physically and emotionally drained? We're going to talk about everything that happened in the game if I can remember any of it. I felt like I played. And also I felt the energy of the crowd and I became a Pacer's fan for like two hours. It sucked me in.

What a game. I can't wait to talk about it. I got harassed on the street on the way back. Zach Lowe, talk about the missed kick balls. Talk about the miss kick balls. Scott Fawkes. Okay. All right. I'm going to go do the podcast. We saw Andre Aguadela in the elevator. He was excited to talk about the game. We got Kevin Durant rumors. We got the Knicks are interviewing human coaches that took the interview. I heard they had a head and two arms and two legs. We got, yeah, I think so. We got a lot to talk about on the Zach Lowe show coming up now with Bill Simmons.

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Must be 21 and over in President Select States or 18 and over in President D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. call 1-800 gambler or visit rg dash help.com. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show, as promised. I'm in an undisclosed hotel location with Bill Simmons. We just watched the Oklahoma City Thunder in a game that didn't feel like it was one they were going to win. In a game that felt the Pacers were pacering around,

Tyreys Halliburton was playing well, Pascal Seaccom was playing well, Obi-Toppin, another big game for him. They're up by 10 at one point. Oklahoma City, no rhythm. They made three, three-pointers the entire game. They took 17 threes in the year of our basketball gods, 2025. Exacerbating problems that were coming in to this game.

They couldn't get threes. They weren't passing. They had 10 assists. They made three-threes. Three-threes. They made three. Three-threes, 10 assists, and they win by seven on the road. And they win by seven on the road.

and now it's 2-2. They have reclaimed home court advantage, going back to Oklahoma City, and we are set up here for a potentially epic last two or three games of the finals. And I don't even know who I feel like has the edge after these four games. They've all been very different games. But this game was sitting there for Indiana to win. They were up, I think, seven going into the fourth quarter. J-dub made a jumper right at the end of the third quarter.

It felt big when it went and after a stop, too. But it was sitting there for them to win. It felt, didn't you feel like they were going to win? I thought when it was 86, 76, up 10, OKC looked like they were a mess. And the ball wasn't moving. It was all one-on-one stuff. They couldn't hit a three. And it felt like Indy could knock them out.

And they missed a couple shots. Topin got fouled. Missed both free throws. And I just remember mentally noting it. I'm like, they could be putting this game. They could be putting this game away right now and they're not putting away and they let OKC hang around. But I'll tell you, I thought OKC's defense in the second half was among the best I've ever seen in my life. Indiana couldn't get within 30 feet of the hoop on multiple possessions in a row.

Halliburn, Dort. I felt so good about my Dort defensive player of the year. It felt like Dort at halftime was like, all right, I'm doing to you what Nemhart is doing to our guy. I'm doing to Halliburnwood and M. Hart's soon to SGA all the way up the floor. You're barely going to get, and yet still up 10, Thunder and Disarray. They had two shot clock violations and had eight second call in the third quarter. What happened to the Pacer's offense at the end of the game? Was it just amazing defense?

I mean, it is amazing defense. Was there anything else you noticed that the Thunder can take with them trying to defend this so far in the playoffs, like almost undefendable Pacer's offense? I thought they solved a lot of stuff. Seacom only had one field goal in the second half. I think it was one for six. I only took one field goal in the whole fourth quarter. Boom. They couldn't figure out how to get them the ball.

And if they tried to get in the ball around the key, it felt like OKC had seven arms just flying and tapping it. Halberon couldn't start the offense and was working so hard just to get away from Dort. And then it just was over and over again. It felt like there was like six seconds left on the shot clock. And they hadn't even really started a play. and it was, you know, a NEM hard pull-up, or it was Hal Burton just trying to create something

right at the end of the shot clock, or it was like a quick pass for a quick three. OK's defense, O'KC's defense won the game. But Shea made the two biggest shots of the game in a row. He scored five in a row right when they needed them, and it felt like it flipped the game. He had the three that took it from four points to one, and then he did the go-ahead jumper.

And, you know, he had no assist, and he was still incredible. Yeah, 35 points on 12 of 24. Did get 10 free throws, obviously a little inflated. The free throws at the end, a lot of free throws. Both of, they started, we talked about after game three, you called dueling banjos when I was saying you would like a little more synergy between SGA and J.W. Even when they're rolling, it's like they're playing their separate offenses within the offense. They put them in the two-man game a lot tonight with Shea screening,

for J-Dub. Especially in the second half. Especially in the second half. And he couldn't stop it. And it wasn't like anything fancy. It's not like they blitzed and they got him in rotation. It was they switched and just, it's so funny how these matchups are.

Like Jalen Brunson wants anybody but Neesmith on him. And SGA wants anybody but Nemhart on him, including Neesmith. And he got that switch. He got a, I think he drew a foul at the nail on one of them. It made it long to drew a foul on like a spin move. And then that three, he got the switch.

They loaded up to him. He kicked it to Jay Will or J. Dub. J. Dub drove the gap. And J. Dubbs was just relentless off the dribble the entire game. Just kept him afloat in the first half in the first quarter. It felt like he was going left every time too. And they just never could figure it out. And he kicked it to Shea.

She hits the Monster 3. And you nailed it with Siakum. I thought when Indiana's offense was kind of unraveling at the end of the game. And it was. And one thing Oklahoma City did that I bet we'll see more of is, is they switch Chet onto Halliburton and Nemhart and just said, look, we know you're going to dance a little bit, and sometimes you'll punish them. Sometimes you'll beat him for a layup, like Halliburton beat him for a layup. Sometimes you're just step back three.

And we may not do this on purpose on every possession. It may be sort of like, oh, God, the screen really hit us. We're going to switch just to get back in front. But we're not going to get in rotation as much. And Nemhart settled for a long two that he missed over him. And it felt like Nemhart just never misses those shots. Yeah. Halliburton settled, I think, for a jumper that he missed over him.

And I just kept writing down, where is Siakum? Where is Seaccom? Like, they forgot about Seacom toward the end of the game. And part of it is you're right. Like, the entry passes were all treacherous against Oklahoma City. But I just wanted Seaccom to just force his way, go set a, like get involved in the action. And I felt like they forgot about him. And Oklahoma City just walked him down with that defense.

I mean, there's so much to cover. with this game. I remember taking it in third quarter when it felt like Indy was going to win, especially in their up 10. I was sitting near the OKC bench. I'm watching the body language. And they just looked young and tired.

And you could feel it at the end of the half when they walked on the end of the first half. There were a little hang doggy, noted that. And then in third quarter, same thing, just young and tired. And I was just marveling because I thought OKC was playing incredible defense. It wasn't like they were letting up.

Indie was just scoring and getting these, you know, top and hit those two things. threes in a row. They're getting fast break points. And at some point, you're like, maybe Indies just a great offensive team now. Maybe they have just emerged. And then over the last 14 minutes, OKC just plucked all their wings off. It wasn't just that they scored 18 points. The shots were terrible. I never felt good. They were either like somebody flying to the basket, trying to make a really hard layup, somebody making a 20-footer with a hand in their face, or a rush three. And those

were the three plays. And I think Halliburton's a great offensive player. He can't solve Dort. He can't go buy him. Dort, I just thought Dort was, it's weird to say this because SGA was incredible, but I thought Dort was the MVP of the game. I thought the way he took out Halberd and it was like watching a defense take out the quarterback of another team.

Halberin had an okay game. It was like 18 and 7. But they really needed them. And that game, it hit the point that we've watched them do this for two months now. these close games, he makes big plays and big shots, and he couldn't do it in this game. They didn't really have anybody to make the shots. I am so brainbroken by Indiana's comebacks

that when Halliburton deflects the in-bounds pass when they're down five after the before the in-bounds pass foul that they got the extra free throw. Remember, he deflects it, and they come out and they get a run-out and Mathuron misses the free throws. But when that happened, I was like, these motherfuckers are going to do this again. Like, again.

I'm so brainwashed by them that in game two, when they were up like 18 and Carlisle put Johnny Furfie to the scores table, I was like, maybe he's got something with Furphy in this series. Maybe this is like a secret weapon he's been waiting to play. And they're going to come back, but there was no comeback. And you look at the box score,

it's like J-dub 27, Shea 35, Caruso, just an absolutely massive 20 points, massive. And big, like, when plays were breaking down, he had one play where it was like the end of the shot clock, Indy played perfect defense in the fourth quarter, and he just made like a crazy fallaway baseline. Like he's not that kind of player. Yeah, he was able to make big shots. Points that they really needed just to kind of keep in touch because they're often, they're getting very little in transition. Indiana has continued to be awesome in transition.

They're taking away all the easy buckets they get. And it's just hard for them in the half court against the Pacer's defense that we just have to, we have to laud them as like this is now a legit. it good to very good defensive team. They've been on point with their rotations. They're particularly the last two games with their schemes and their rotations we can talk about. Well, and then we should mention Chet played 37 tonight. And he had the 14 and 15. I thought he had a couple big defensive plays.

I don't know how many blocks. He had one of bigger ones. Nemhard laid in the game when Nemhard drove and another kind of broken slow possession for Indiana. And he challenged him at the rim and he had to toss it way up. Right. But the other thing is four offensive rebounds for Chet, a couple putbacks. Again, when things look like they were on the verge of Indiana 3-1. He got hurt in the first quarter.

We were watching because it looked like he re-injured the ankle in that he wasn't coming back. He limped off and we're like, oh, my God, that's it for Chet. Listen, their backs were to the wall. We probably should have said this sooner. I do think if they lost that game, I think that I don't think they can win three in a row after that. I mean, how about this? This is something we talked about last night and before the game. I mean, there's a chance this was the NBA championship.

I actually don't feel that way. I feel that way less after watching the game. But we've had game fours like that before that game four was the game. Right? It's like 2000, L.A., Indiana that decided the championship that game. If you think that, you think OKC has now such an upper hand with home court advantage that they win game five and then all they got to do is split. I don't come out of this game feeling like it doesn't even feel like Oklahoma City still knows

like what lineups to play and when. Like did the double big thing even work? Hartenstein was minus seven. Wallace is kind of just like down, down, down, 19 minutes made one shot. Joe didn't play the second half. Wiggins eight minutes after that huge. No, they have six and a half guys, Zach.

They're down to six and a half. And are they going to now lean on the lineup we thought they might start tonight, which was Caruso for Wallace, staying small? Yeah. That might be their best lineup. It's actually been, it was minus seven in the, playoffs before this game. So I feel like there's still a little unsteady. Chet

looks a little rickety on offense outside of a couple of putbacks and stuff. But, but so I'm not ready to go there, but there was a chance that this was like the NBA title was literally in the balance. That's how I felt leaving. I felt like Indiana blew it.

There's two versions of blowing a game where you have like some of the comebacks Indiana had where like the Knicks in game one where you're like not only do you just blow it. of this game. I'm not sure we can emotionally come back from that. This one was like, Indiana, it was kind of amazing.

They were up 10 with, you know, late in the third quarter with how well O'KC was playing defensively and how physical the game was. And Foster, we didn't mention him yet. Oh, boy, here we go. It was just an abomination. It was a typical Scott Foster all over the map, just involved, like, weird stoppages, miss calls, like calling touch fouls, then not calling. somebody getting clubbed in the head.

They had no control of this entire game. There was over 70 free throws. Both coaches were mad. Both benches were mad. There was no rhyme or reason. All of a sudden, they just started calling fouls in OKC in the fourth quarter that they'd been doing the whole game. They're like, yeah, we're going to start calling those now.

Nobody could keep track of anything. So the game had no flow. But the thing, the biggest thing for me is if Indy can't run and Indy's not, you know, playing with pace, in the half-court offense, I just think, it's really hard for them to score. Well, that's both these teams, and neither one can get any momentum running against the other. Topin got a run out, Dunk, and a transition three at one point. But you look, it's like, how do you win a game?

I don't even know what number is more alarming. Only making three-threes or only attempting 17. Like, Oklahoma City could not get any threes in this series. Nobody wanted to shoot them either. Their three-point rate would be last by a mile now in the regular season. This will be three of their four or five loads. those three point rate games will now have been in this series for the whole hundred, whatever games they've played.

Wow. They can't get threes. The Pacers are just like, they're just filling gaps and flying out, and they've got them second guessing. So how do you win a game when you make three-threes? You take 17 and you have 10 assists. 10 assists. They had four assists in the second half, too.

They made six at a half time four in the second half. And they didn't win the turnover battle. Turnover battle is more or less even. The answer is 34 free throws, shoot better. from two and have an absolutely incredible defense that strangled the Pacers late in the game. And it just and the Caruso wild car game. Caruso seven for nine. It felt like all of them were big shots.

I feel like they, you know, I thought, I thought Dorrit was the best defensive player I saw this year. And I thought he was massive in this game. Caruso was the most important trade of the year. And he was massive in this game. And they at least know now because a game like this. I know it's one thing to watch it on TV. It's another thing to be in the building for it

because there's just a different level of pressure intensity. The fans were so loud. And just for two hours, they're mad at the refs. They're going nuts for the team. That was the kind of like 10 out of 10 pressure atmosphere. I think that team needed. And really what they found out was we've Caruso and Dort. We have our two best guys.

And we have Chet. And this is probably, this is, we're going to ride or die with these five guys. and that's how it felt down the stretch. But what's crazy is they couldn't make any threes, and it didn't matter. And that's just like in the NBA in 2025, to make three threes, you should never be able to win a must-win game on the road.

It should be impossible. They also hit their free throws, which we should have mentioned. They're 34 for 38. They're a great free throw shooting team. That's 90%. I think we should talk about Shea. Yeah.

And Shea in the second half. Because it didn't, feel like it was going to be a great Shea game for some of it. He's two points in the first quarter basically. And he wasn't bringing the ball up at all, which is a red flag. Like he's,

and then he gets, they change his substitution pattern. So he comes out much earlier in the first and third quarters to like shorten his stints. Yeah. And on a lot of these possessions, part of the reason why like it's Jdub going one on one or whatever is

if Shea starts off the ball, Nemhart is just denying him, like top locking him in the corner, just not letting him. get the ball. And if he does that once, Shea on a lot of these plays will just kind of check himself out of the play. Just like, all right, I guess someone else is going to do something. And it just felt like,

boy, maybe they really have worn them down. Maybe this Pacer's machine where it's like pitch and catch and run and screen and press you all over the place. Maybe on only one day off between games, playing them four times, whatever. Maybe they're done to him what they've done to everybody they face so far.

And it wasn't pretty. It wasn't, none of it was easy. Like, you go look back at his baskets, his fouls, Almost none of them were easy. There were very few jail breaks. Like the Pacers were given up in the first couple games where he splits to pick and roll and it's like a jail break to the rim. And he summoned what MVPs are supposed to summon. He summoned like enough energy, enough resourcefulness, enough tough jumpers to get them over the hump in this game.

I thought, I mean, again, it wasn't like not a lot of highlights. It doesn't necessarily a performance that like makes you feel super confident about the next game. but it was everything they needed to survive that game he gave them i don't know what grade you would give it i don't know what struck you about it it's funny that was your takeaway because i felt completely differently i felt like they got over some sort of invisible hump well i just think the i want to i'm just talking shay specifically i didn't necessarily feel like that kind of fourth quarter was going to cut even i guess in early in the second quarter he made a bunch of tough buckets to keep them afloat it just he felt like he had two points then it felt like he made four tough

shots in a row. And it started to take control of the game. So you summoned, whatever he needed to summon, he did it. So it's 101.97, 334 left. Neesmith hits second free throw coming out of the timeout. Yeah. She gets fouled, hits two free throws. Halber makes the driving layup.

So now it's 103. 9, 320 left. And OKC's offense kind of broke down a little bit, but that led to that Shea 3. It's the only one he made in the game. They get a stop because Caruso blocks them hard. And then Shea makes that step back. And all of a sudden, they were leading. And I think if we were watching, you know, those NBA Finals mini movies that the NBA makes

and everything's in slow motion and they cut to the bench, like this was the NBA finals mini movie moment where Shea's three, which was, you know, a massive, massive shot because it went from four to all of a sudden they had the lead. And then that other one. And it was like, everyone in my section was like, what just happened? We were up four. And I didn't feel like Indiana was going to win after that. And that was one of the only times I felt that way, the whole playoffs for them.

It just felt like a fucking stomach punch. And look, OKC has been in this exact position before against Denver, down to one. Yeah. On the road. Season maybe on the line. Who was that? Lou Dort hit a couple shots. That was, I remember.

Yeah, no, I think that was game five was like the door game. Game four against Denver, I think was the one. It was a very low-scoring game where, like, Wallace and Wiggins made a bunch of threes against the zone in the third quarter when it felt like they were really teetering in that game. And they just another test that they survive and now they go home. And I mean... Well, if you're Indiana, you're kicking yourself, though. You are. You are.

Three-threes and you give up three-threes and you lose the game. And you stopped running. And I'm not going to say they played scared. I thought they played tentative down the stretch. It was one of the few times we've seen them all year where they were kind of, they just weren't attacking like they normally do. I actually thought they made a mistake. And it's funny because he was terrible in the last minute of the game, Mathuron.

He missed the three out of four free throws. He had two dumb fouls. But I actually thought they needed him down the stretch because nobody could create anything. And he was the one guy on their team who can actually create a basket. And it's just, that's a lot. I like them hard, but that's a lot to ask for him to try to create shots. I also thought we should have mentioned this, too. SGA's defense was really good in this game.

Like, he blocked a Halliburton 3. He tipped a couple passes. I just thought he was really active. And on top of what Doran Caruso was doing, it's in the running for best defense I've ever seen in person. When you're wondering how somebody can get the ball over midcourt, that's like shit. You worry about an eighth grade, not in like an NBA game. Shea is the best guard in the league at the, I switched on to a big man. He's posting me up and I'm going to jump over you and tap away the entry pass without fouling you.

Right, because he's the best guy in the league at that. Yeah, he's the best guard in the league at that. We should also probably talk about Miles Turner, three of 10, 0 of 6 on 3. It just feels huge that he has not been able to get going for a lot of the series. and Carlisle is going to top in Siakum together more and more, which has been a successful lineup for them. But Turner has got to make shots, especially if they're going to play drop coverage

or come up to the level of the screen, he's going to be able to pop and get into a short roll game. He's just got to make some shots for them to win. So I think it was two for ten last game. It's three for ten this game. It's been a rough couple of games. He was getting the shots they wanted him to get. He was missing them.

The guy sitting behind me who was very upset at Scott Foster, at various points and just started screaming, fuck you at him during the fourth quarter, which I thought was fun. Yeah. But Miles missed one of those wide open threes at the top of the key, which he's made all year.

And the guy behind me was just like, God, Miles, that's your shot! And that was how I felt watching it. I'm not even a Pacer's fan. I was like, Miles, that's your shot. And they weren't misses. They were like missing right, missing left. There was a really bad Halber

a nail airball near the end. There was a couple like rebound Airballs where Indy got fouled. Neesmith just caught it under the rim. Yeah, if you did a collage of the fourth quarter misses, I think they would be pretty ugly. So you're feeling confident about O'KC? I think they got over the home.

But I really feel like Indy, I think there was a moment in that third quarter and then when it was 86-76, and I thought they had a chance to end it. Because you can't come back from 15 if you're not going to make threes, right? You can do it if you're whoever, but not a team that's not making any threes.

Not taking them. That's the crazy. They can't even get them. So they missed that moment there. And then that 103.99, that SGA3 was just a backbreaker when it cut it to one. I felt you could feel the air go out of the arena for a second. Now, maybe I'm wrong about this because Oklahoma City can certainly go home and just have one of those games where they force 22 turnovers. And it doesn't even matter what they do on offense because they get 30 points. and transition

and just run you out of the building. And if they get one, one of those, that's three wins and they just need to play one more game and win. I still think they're going to have to find

some kind of rhythm on offense to win two more times against the Pacers. I don't think the Pacers are now like mentally defeated and oh my God. So you don't think they found something with the two-man game there?

I think they found, like, I mean, it shouldn't be a revelation. Like, they've used that two-man game before. I still think they have to make. No, but they were doing it every time. Every time.

I felt like they were like, you can't stop this. Now we're just going to do this until you stop it. And it involves their two best perimeter defenders, Nemhart and Neesmith. And so it shouldn't be as much of a threat as it was at the end of that game. But I think we'll see that. But I think they are going to have to establish a little bit more of a rhythm in their half-court offense and improve their spacing a little bit and just like play. They've had a couple threes in this series where they've gotten them by

setting flare screens off the ball, like leveraging Indiana's help against them. They got one tonight. Chet set a flare for some. I think it was Caruso. I just think they need to play with a little bit more purpose offensively to win twice more against Indiana.

Because I don't think Indiana is like going away now that they've lost Tom Court advantage. I think these are going to be tough games. But there's some things that are tough going against them now. You have Miles Turner now an official slump. You have an Indiana team that if they're, if they're trapped in the half-card offense with the way O KC was dialing it.

And they're going to dial it up at home too. Just really hard for them to score. And it's not like, with the exception of the end of the last four minutes, let's say, where I thought they stalled out a little bit and lost a little bit of their snap. They're like running their stuff. Like there was a sequence where Toppin and Halliburton flipped the ball back and forth to each other like three times

or four times in two seconds. And you could see Oklahoma City being like, God damn, can you just, can someone just dribble? So we can stay still for a second. You know, they're running Halliburton, like an off ball, split actions, like the Warriors run. They're like doing their stuff. And Oklahoma City is just up for it for the most part. I do think they found something with Chet.

Hey, Chet, can you just switch a little bit more just to keep us out of rotation a bit? They tried playing zone. That didn't really work. But, I mean, their defense is just, they're more talented and their defense is the best thing in the playoffs. I wrote down. It was after those two huge. top and threes. And I agree with you on the defense.

It was 80-72 Indy, 4-11 left to the third quarter. And I wrote down threes, Indy, 11 for 27, OKC, 1 for 12. And I was sitting with Chen, and I'm like, Indies plus 10 and 3s

and they're up 8. That feels like not a good sign. Right? If you're 11-01 and 3s, I'm just going to assume you're up by 15, 20 points. And it's just that O KC was hanging around with such a credit to their defense. I thought OKC went to another level defensively. It was crazy watching OKC solve it and score.

I mean, Indiana solve it and score, even though OKC was doing everything right. And they were so physical. And then, you know, it would end up with some crazy top in three or a Seacom whirling move in or Nemhart. And it was like, Jesus, they're throwing everything at this team. They're still scoring. and then they ran out of Aliburton had a couple just drives to the rim

where they're again they're trying to make him a driver and a playmaker like a slower driving Chris Paul style playmaker and he had a drive to the room

he had one where he like drove fake shot fake pass and then fake pass got somebody an open three in the corner well can I just tell you

I've noticed two things in this series going to the games which I knew anyway but really jumped out to me howlburn only goes right Jaylon Williams only goes left. And OKC just they know how Auburn's going right and they're just like basically preventing it.

Indiana was not preventing Jaylon Williams from going left over and over again. He loves going left and he just kept getting it. And even if you kind of blocked it off, then he would do his little step back 12 footer. I thought he was. Tough shots. I thought he was brilliant. He was absolutely relentless. And he shut down Siakum too.

And they were bringing, if Siakum came out, he would take. He would take Jalen Williams out, then he put him back in if Seacqub came in. I just thought he completely outplayed Seacum in the second half. He was awesome. And just the relentlessness he played with early in the game, it just felt like they needed to stay in touch. Like the game didn't feel like it was going to go their way. It wasn't going their way. And he just drove and drove.

He got 11 free throws, 11 of 11 at the line. He had one play. Tough, tough, tough plays too. Yeah, he had one play where it was a baseline out of bounds. He catches it in like the left corner. corner. Ben Shepard was on him. Ben Shepard, you know, just a sort of nondescript 11 minutes today. And Ben Shepard just kind of overran the catch by a half step. And J. Dub saw it and seized on it and just drove middle with every bit of force he could summon and got fouled at the rim. It was like stuff like that. That's just tough. That's how that hurts. Oh, I know. We should have mentioned this sooner. That game from a physicality intensity standpoint was as good as it gets.

I had a GM text me during the game or whatever the title is for the. the number one decision maker on a team. Text me during the game, how many games do you think we could find from the last 30 years that were harder played than these last two games? Like that's just,

I mean, I'm sure we could find some, but that's people are no, people around the league, you know, the rest of the league watches the finals. They watch for trends. They watch for like what wins at the biggest stages.

And at least this one guy texted me is that this is like, just the level of effort and physicality is the likes of which he almost literally hasn't seen. Yeah, there was like real desperation and it wasn't just in the down the stretch. It was like the entire

game. And I, like, I went to the, I went to the Denver Clippers game four, which I talked about in my pot. I thought that was an awesome game. And both teams really brought it. And this was a level higher than that. In that game, I was like, that felt like a game seven. When you go to

game sevens, they're almost, they're almost so desperate and so physical that usually they're not that good of a game. Usually the best games in a series are game four or game five. I love a game four. You have the desperation, but they're not nervous and it's not ugly. This one was all of those things.

Like there were points where it was really well played. There were other parts where it was ugly. I thought the fourth quarter was actually pretty disappointing that Indiana just couldn't figure out how to score because I wanted to see how far they could push OKC. And they just, they can never kind of put OKC and like they're down seven with four minutes. They could never, because he was always lingering, lingering, lingering, lingering. And I just, that's a tough one, man. You have those, you think about those, like the Celtics had that three years ago with

the Steph Curry, that game four in the finals when he just took off in the second half. One of the best games I've ever been to. Yeah, and you just, sometimes you know when you just know something is shifted. The NBA finals are here. It all comes down to this. And Fandals turning the excitement up even more with an all-class. customer profit boost for every game of the series, as if you needed another reason to root for a game 7. That's right. Use your profit boost to bet which team will win. Who's going to drop 30?

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it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.com slash AI to learn more. So you and I on the off days and during the days, we've been making a lot of calls on offseason stuff and draft and trades and Philly naturally. I'm going somewhere with this, I promise. I'm in the car with you. Philly naturally comes up a lot because they're at number three and what are they going to do and this and that.

So you're talking to people about the Sixers. And you watch these games and how intense and how physical they are. You just cannot overstate how long of a slog the playoffs are if you're going to win four playoff series and start playing basically every other day. for the second and third round. And then you get some more off time in the finals. And then it's 18 days in the finals potentially. It's like two thirds of a month.

These two teams are relatively young, incredibly young in Oklahoma City's case, deep and pretty healthy. And the reason I bring up Philly is just like, everyone's like, yeah, you know, maybe they can get in Bid to play 60, 65 games again in a season. It's just impossible to like imagine him playing a full playoffs at this level of intensity.

10 straight weeks is that. level of minutes. It's just, watching it up close over and over again, round after round, the toll it takes on just the playoffs, forget the first 82, just like the 20, whatever you need to win a title, wins and losses together. It's just an enormous toll on your body. And it's not a coincidence that we have two young, healthy, deep teams standing at the end. And even they're, like, going to get to the end of the series, like, we couldn't play another

series after this or, like, I don't know what it would even look like. Yeah, game three, Dallas, Boston, and the finals was like that. like. I thought it got to that level where they were really, there was a desperation on both sides. That was the only time. It's pretty rare to see an entire series of it because I feel like I thought game three kind of had the same vibes. This was a little different because, and you could feel it.

Like I was watching the okay seat during the timeouts. They knew. They know what's going on. They can't go down 3-1. Even with home court, it's a tall order. The young guys were super quiet. Caruso was kind of the, he's the, clapper, fist pump, veteran guy that every team needs.

But an SGA is just this calm Michael Myers force who just doesn't really talk. It was weird. He got called for a fourth foul and he was actually kind of mad. And so was Dagnod. It was weird to see them even rattled by a call. And that's when he got taken out of the game for 38 seconds. Yeah, yeah. And one possession, one Oklahoma City offensive position.

Right. Even to see them do that, it was like, oh, it was like the Russians cut. It was one of those moments. But for the most part, they're just business. they do their business. And Dort is just like Ray Lewis out there. He really is. He's like a linebacker.

Like in the first half, and I don't know if the TV, I think the TV caught it after the fact. Mathrim was shooting free throw. And Dort just elbowed halber in the face. Like, for real, it was like a flagrant foul, it seemed like. It wasn't a full flop. That's for sure. Like, they got tangled up and he just did the discard.

Just nailed him. Just get off me. And there was. there was like two other times when it was clear, I'm speaking for him. I don't know if he really thinks this, but he's like, Howard might be a little soft.

I'm going to test them a couple times. And he was, you know, like hockey, he was Canadian hockey enforcering. Think Caruso's same thing. Like these guys, it's a really,

it's weird. You don't think of them as like a tough team, like the way we would think of like the bad boy pistons or something. That team is fucking tough. Yeah, they're not out to like be violent. No. They're physically.

They're quietly tough. is unrelenting. On those drives, they want to, like, bang into you and knock you backwards. Well, Jay Will, J. Dub, rather, had a couple of hard fouls, a couple of hard falls tonight,

one on offense, one on defense, just going like hell at the rim or going like hell to challenge a shot at the end on Mather. And, yeah, they're, by the way, we're at the point with flagrant fouls now where I don't know what they are.

You might as well just pick, like, three media members and be like, you guys are going to be the flagrant foul judges for tonight's game. Just two out of three, it's a flagrant, it's not a flagrant. Because topping in Caruso, just seemed like a hard foul.

Hardstein got mad about it for some reason. Then it was like, no, that was actually a flagrant. We were like, what? Yeah. Play a foul. And then Topin club somebody in the head or somebody could club topping in the head. Somebody club topping in the head. That's called that.

Dort elbowed halber in the face, not a flagrant. I don't know. I can't just maybe me, you and, you know, Howard Beck can just be like the flagrant foul committee. Would it give Scott Foster a chance to randomly just stop the game? a couple more times and walk over the scores table for no reason. At least he could give us a little

a little Bill Kennedy mugging at the microphone. He doesn't even vamp like that on the challenge. He was awful tonight. He was just awful. I knew he was going to be awful and he was worse

than I thought he was going to be because I think the officiating has been pretty good for the most part in the playoffs. Yeah. Tonight was bad. It really, Oklahoma City really kind of

felt their way through this game. Like felt, I didn't like the way they started. I was like, almost alarmed by the fact that coming out of the gate, they had Halliburton blitzing Halliburton and the Pick and Roll. Like, to me, Halliburton is a guy that you just don't blitz because he's going to make their right easy pass every time. And they got a couple, they got to stop like Turner Missile jump shot.

I was shocked that they had, and it backfired a couple of times. I don't know if that's like something they might try. Again, I don't love it at all. We forgot to mention how they started the double bigs. Yeah, no, we mentioned it before. I don't even, I felt a little desperate. Did it work? Not really.

Hartinstein was minus 7. Didn't feel like he had. I honestly think that change, I mean, Mark Dagnall will never explain anything in like what they're actually thinking. I'll bet you that change was aimed at their offense more than their defense because of his screening, his passing. Like, hey, if you're going to top lock Shea, I can hit him on, I'm the guy who can hit him on backdoor cuts. They're big to big passing. They didn't really use them like that. though. I feel like he's declined as the playoffs have gone along and has basically turned into a

backup center, which he was way more than that during the season. He was, I thought, like, this additive offensive player for them. But I did all the other stuff. I between games and rewatching game three, what I, my anticipation was whatever adjustments they make are going to be aimed at loosening up their offense a little bit. I don't think that they really succeeded to I still think... You didn't like the 3 for 17 from 3? Well, I just... It's a little thing.

I thought Joe would play more just because he's their best chance at like just some random guy gets on a heater and makes four threes in the second quarter. I thought he would play a little bit more. I thought they would play, try playing 5 out again.

Maybe like no bigs. Just try it, see how it works. It seems like he just wanted the defense more than the offense in the second half at least. I agree with you. I thought it was going to be Wiggins because I was watching Wiggins

warm up before the game. And it felt like he made 39 of 43s and just was like, oh, they might need those. And then he missed one. We never saw him again. I mean, like Ken Rich Williams played more minutes than Aaron Wiggins. Yeah. Well, this is what happens. As these series go along, it's like soldiers on a battlefield.

They start getting picked off one at a time. And all of a sudden, you have six and a half guys left. If you're Indiana, like, you have a legitimate Miles Turner issue now because I don't even think he thinks his shots going in. And you have, he's got to take them. And you have Toppin, who has looked great and he's given them energy. I thought it was a bad sign for the Pacers that they were putting their subs in with like five minutes left in the first quarter. That whole first half, I texted you at one point. It was 9.45.

Took it. It was like three minutes left. The first quarter felt like it took forever. And Carlisle started speed subbing. And then all of a sudden he brought his dudes in, but it was really early. It was, you know, there was still five minutes left. And all of a sudden, McConnell and Toppin were in the game. And I just felt like, I don't feel like their subs had the same impact because of that today.

McConnell had some moments in the first half. I don't really remember anything he did in the second half and eight points in. A lot of dribbling. 18 minutes. Matherin just not, not there tonight. Listen, somebody asked me before the game, you think Matherin will do it again? And I was in the bathroom. And I was like, it was a treat in game three.

I'm feeling a trick tonight for Matherin because he's trick or treat. I mean, that's how he is. That's how he is. I had a couple more notes for you. You go. Hold on. So, oh, OKC, I thought this was interesting in the first half, just decided to give up. I know they ended up with some offensive rebounds.

But they would take a shot and four guys would just go back. It was the old Doc Rivers end of the 2000 Celtics move. They were just like, you can have the rebounds. They didn't want to get beaten so badly on those fasts. breaks, that they threw the offensive rebounds away for a while, which I thought was an interesting strategy. They didn't stick with it. But that was a little grasping for Straussish to me.

And then I thought the pace was so fast for them in the first quarter, especially. And I wrote down on my notes, this is what would happen when the Celtics were playing in India. Indiana just sucks you into their pace. You're like, I don't want to play this fast. And then all of a sudden you're playing that fast. and in the second half, OKC figured out how to get the pace back.

The second half was the OKC pace, especially the last 14 minutes. A little slower, a little more chaotic. That's where they want it. They don't want to be in a track meet with these guys. What other notes you have? Any other notes you want to get to?

I wrote down at the end of the first quarter in bold, reprehensible foster game, and it only got worse. No, I had the big picture. picture. Oh, here's one. Where do you have Jaylon Williams big picture right now in general? I don't have any, I don't think I have like a hot, I think he made all NBA, right? I think he made third team all NBA as like the last guy in. I would not have had him on my third team all NBA ballot. I would have had him as like maybe the last guy out.

And then you factor in like guys that were not eligible due to injuries. He's probably something like the 20th best player in the NBA. I think I have them higher. Yeah, I don't, I mean, like, defensively, I had them all defense for sure. Because you have your 10 guys and then it moves into that like Cade, AD, Jalen Williams, Mowbly, LeBron, Booker, that kind of category. Yeah. The stuff Jaylon Williams was doing tonight, how elite he was as a two-way guy, how fucking

hard he plays. Oh, look, there's nothing. I remember. He's shaking off all the. a young guy Cobwebs at this point. Like he is like a fucking bull and a china show. I remember two years ago on NBA today, we were doing,

we were commenting over a thunder highlight. And I just screamed two years ago, Jalen Williams is a star. Like he's a star. And he's, it was clear he was going to be a star. Now he's, I think he might be a level higher than a star now.

Like he's, he's a clear you can win the title if he's your second best guy in the team. Well, we know that because they're two wins away from winning the title. But it was like, is he's two A,

Chet's TV now. I don't know. Those two games in person, I was just really impressed by, I feel like he's gone up a level. Maybe I'm crazy. A couple of big picture things. Yeah. I would like to dispel something that is

seeping into the media coverage of this finals. Oh, God. No. Well, no, no, no. Solitaire? Someone informed me about that after the game. I did not see it. I'm laser focused, baby. I'm focused. I heard rumors. No, there's no Twitter for me during the games.

That's how I operate as well. Laser focused. We're at the game. What do I need to look at Twitter? I'm at the game. I can watch it. Anyone fucking talks to me during the game. You're not getting a response.

Really? I talked to chat in the whole game. I just kind of narrate it for him. So there's this notion that like we have all, we have all underestimated Indiana. And because we did not realize that I'm not in. including us, because we did realize it, that after a slow 10 and 15 start, they became an elite team. That's true. I've seen a little bit of like, well, they're really, and even I was talking to cope before the game on the sideline, I will not name who they were, saying, yeah, these teams are like neck and neck after January 1.

Like, that's the line of demarcation. They're neck and neck. And I just like, I just want to say, it's not true. Like, so here, so after the paces are 10 and 15. Yeah. You red line at that moment. From that point on in the season, the Pacers go 40 and 17 with a net rating of plus 4.9. That was sixth in the NBA.

Yeah. The Thunder go 49 and 9 with a net rating of plus 13, which is first by a mile, which is to say, even if you just isolate when the Pacers started playing well, when Halliburton, who was more injured in the offseason, by the way, than people know. and I think maybe we will figure that out later. Even if you isolate the season from that point forward, the Thunder are still way better on paper. There's still a big gap on paper. Now, I think what we've discovered in the playoffs is you can kind of throw the paper a little bit to the side

because just the way the Pacers play is extremely difficult to play against over and over and over again. And they were getting better and better at it. Yeah, the paper gap shrinks because of the style difference. The styles make fight. It's like what I said before about the stuff they were doing the first three quarters with the kind of defense OKC was playing was incredible to watch. Because OKC was playing A plus defense. And Indiana was still, you know, getting good shots and running on them and hitting threes.

And the other thing I would like to say, yeah, is that the Pacers have successfully become a very good defensive team. and schematically, they're very long, they're fast, they're smart. Halliburton has held his own. And that's the bar for the skinny guard, the Steph Curry guard, whatever. Just hold your own so that we don't have to bend everything to account for you. He's been pretty solid for the most part. And if you talk to people with the Pacers, it was your Boston Celtics that had the light bulb go on for him. that just those two games that he played before he got hurt in the conference finals,

it was eye-opening for him to be like, oh, they're really going to pick on me every single time. Right. Like, this is how it's going to be in the playoffs. Like, I've just got to get a little better. And he's done it. And their scheme in this series has been awesome. They're flying around and pick and roll coverages when there's a jail break. Someone will peel in from the perimeter.

Another guy will peel out. They're making those reads correctly. Can we play a game with Andrew Nampard? Yeah. Because you're I love you're a redraft guy. Andrew Nemhard was the 31st pick in the 2022 draft. Incredible. And that's what's cool about this Pacer's team.

And why it's hard to parse. Halliburton, all NBA guy, right? Gotta have that. Yeah. Seacum borderline All-Star? It's in the top 30 somewhere. He'll make the All-Star team some years, some years not. It's in the 20 to 30 range usually.

Second round pick, Nemhardt. First round, quote, bust, knee-smith, reclamation project. not for us. We never gave up our houses. We're like, we can't sell. It's like the values are going to keep going up.

S.J. was picking on them today. I did look at Redfin. Miles Turner, center, who's been in trade rumors for almost 10 years. You know,

it doesn't look like this. It's not like the Warriors starting five from 2015. No, even when you look at the scoreboard and you're like, it's almost like they're missing a guy, but they're not.

All right, let's play like, would you draft this guy over Nemhart and we'll see if where we would redraft. I'm hard. Okay. Palo, yes. Yeah.

Chet, yes. Jabari Smith, Jr. Oh, I mean, that's another one of my holdings. Me too. I love Jabari Smith Jr. I'm saying it's a conversation. Yeah, it's a conversation. I think I'd rather, I really like Jabari Smith than I just think he's on the wrong team.

I love his will and what he plays. I just want to see him on another team. Imagine him in the Pacers in the Miles Turner spot. I would enjoy that. Kegan Murray. Oh, numhardt 100 times out of 100. Jaden Ivy? It's not fair because Ivy got hurt, but I would take Nemhard.

Benedict Matherin? Numerard. Shaden Sharp. 18 a game last year. I like Shade and Sharp. I like winning titles, so I'm taking Nemhart. Dyson Daniels. Oh, I'd probably take Daniels.

Would you? I'd probably take Daniels, yeah. He was unbelievable last year. Jeremy Sohan? No. Here's the toughest one, number 10. Johnny Davis. How did he do in Israel last year?

Usman Jang. No. You're not going to hit anybody else probably. No, J-dub is number 12. Oh, so there you go. Jalen Duren. Then you go, O-Chai, O-Chai. Like, Andrew N.

And Jalen Rundren's an interesting conversation. I thought he was good last year. I'm a big fan. I'm just saying, like, there's a pretty good chance Andrew N-Hart should have been a top-10 pick in the draft, and they got him at 31 with a pick day acquired in a trade. That's all. I just was like, I want to redraft this and see where it goes.

They took him in the range where everybody thought he was going to go, though. I heard a good Andrew Nemhart's story, actually, today. So the Bucks had the 24th. The Bucks who have some off-season dilemmas to sort out. Maybe they're starting to solve out. Maybe they are not. But part of the reason the Yannis future thing is a question is that they just, like, who are the young players that are going to grow with Yannis,

that I can look around and say, oh, it's me and A.J. Green in three years and who else? The Bucks had the 24th pick in the draft. And they worked out Nemhart. I think twice. Love Nemhart. All over Nemhart. From what I heard, he even had to cancel a Pacer's workout because he had to go back and work out for the Bucks

and the Bucks were picking seven spots ahead of the Pacers. And they passed on him and they took Marshawn Beauchamp. And Nemhart, who is an absolute MFer as a competitor, like icy as hell wants to kill you, has never ever forgotten about it and wants revenge on the bucks all the time. It's like an underrated little piece of the Bucks Pacers rivalry. I don't know.

Any other takeaways, like, as we had to game five here? I heard a horrifying Halberton story about the draft today. Oh, God. Share it. Can you share it? The Boston story? Oh, boy. All right, let me look up.

Boston was picking 14. And they loved, I knew this story. And I think I blocked that out of my mind. And then it was retold to me today. They were picking 14 and they wanted to trade up for Halberton. Boston and Dallas were two. teams trying to trade up for him. Boston had a better chance because they were 14.

And they were trying to trade with a couple of the teams. And at some point, Danny was on the phone with somebody and misunderstood what they said. The guy said he's not going to be there at 14, but Danny said he's going to, Danny thought he said he's going to be there at 14. So they didn't do the trade up because he's like, he's going to be there at 14. So we heard. And then he got taken. I thought we're going to have a Brooks, Brooks situation again, like Dylan Brooks.

and Marshawn Brooks No, it wasn't a Brooks thing. But they didn't trade up because he misheard the information. And who did the Boston Celtics take with the 14th pick? Aaron Neesman. Aaron Neesmith. Yeah. Because the Phoenix pick seemed pretty available at number 10.

And somehow they ended up just taking Jail Smith anyway. A lot of teams kicking themselves with Alberg. Any other notes on this game as we move forward to game five adjustments, counters, stuff you're looking for that we didn't get to. I'll just say this. I flew to Indiana. It was a four-hour flight. two games in three days

was hoping they'd be really good. The games were spectacular. So intense. They were an A-plus. I love the Indiana fans. I thought they were just awesome. My only critique would be, don't go completely silent

when you get nervous when your own guys at the line. Just do some small chatter. When it goes from super loud to... I'll never forget being an MSG for game one of Pacers-Nicks when Andanobi and Townsman's free throws Same thing when it goes noise to no, it wasn't just silence. They were going, shh, right.

There's nothing more nerve-wracking. No, shish. Don't do the shish. Just pretend. Just start talking about like, hey, have you seen your friends and neighbors? Like, just have conversation. Let the guy shoot. But I thought they were just awesome.

And the atmosphere is great. Everybody loves basketball. Everybody seemed like they had their own tickets. Usually when you, especially go to the finals, it seems like some people sell or you have like a lot of corporate people. This was like just paste. fans absolutely everywhere. My big note is McAfee did this monologue with like

10 minutes left. Did you see this in the scoreboard? And was talking about, this was like a crucial part of the game. And he was doing this thing about, we were six point underdogs and this is Indiana. And it was just, it was the wrong timing.

I would have gone second quarter for that. It was like this massive part of the game. And they actually had to stop the game and wait for the monologue to finish before they started playing again. I thought that was really weird. Fourth quarter of a game that is the most consequential game of the season so far. I was talking to somebody before the game.

Is this the biggest NBA Pacers home game ever this game tonight? This is before the game. I mean, this is the first time they've ever been in the lead in the finals in the NBA. So the other one would have been Lakers 2004 game four. The Kobe game. But they were down to one in the series. This one, they're up to one. And this is another piece of this now that we don't have two, three, two, two,

anymore. It's like impossible to win three in a row in the two, three, two at home. I think as great as Oklahoma City is, and with home court advantage, Pacers win this game and have all that momentum and all that good feelings. And OKC is asking questions of themselves and feeling down. I don't

think they can win three games in a row. I don't think so either. I think six would have been really hard, but now, you know, you and I both thought Indiana was going to win tonight. I did. I felt, I told, I said before you had, just something in my gut. Yeah. The way they finished game three, it just felt like Oklahoma City was a little frazzled and a little tired. And the way this game started, I was like, oh, okay, it feels like an Indiana win.

It felt like an Indiana win for the first three quarters of the game. So it almost became the OB topping game. So what this, I guess this game ended up with no name. It's the SGA five points in a row game. I think it's the SGA fourth quarter scoring at the end. Maybe the Caruso, the Caruso, another Caruso game. Another like how did they get this guy? Yeah.

Really nice win. Good job by the Indiana fans, though. I thought they did everything they possibly could. And I've never heard madder fans in my life than they were at Scott Foster at various points in that game. Real animosity. Would you make a pick now, like an update? I mean, both of us, our picks are wrong. We picked Oklahoma City in five before the series, I believe.

You know, and the Godfather, Salazzo tries to kill Vito Corleone. He shoots him and does it. die. And then he talks somebody later. And he has dinner with Michael Corleone. Doesn't go well. Cluesky. Louis, we end up getting shot to death. And he's like, I missed my chance. Now, I am the hunted one. It felt like, and I missed my, it felt like a Salazzo game for Indiana. They missed their chance. This was it. This was all lined up for them. They're up 10. Obey topping at the line. O. Casey's rattled and young and playing twice in three days. The crowd's crazy. This was it. had it. But we should know not to count them out either. I'm not going to, I'm not going to say they

have no chance, but I just feel like OKC probably won the title tonight. Like I said before, I think Oklahoma City still has to make some adjustments offensively to pull this series out. I think, look, I picked Oklahoma City to win in five. I still think they're going to win the series, but I think it's going to be a tough, I don't know, six, seven, whatever, I don't care. I think they're going to win the series, but I wouldn't count Indiana out. This episode is brought to you by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously. But you know what else is? Collecting basketball memorabilia. And that's why you got to love eBay. It's like a never-ending merch store, vintage basketball cards,

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cuisine, whether it's game night or date night. Nothing says, I love you, like orange chicken, honey walnut, trim, Kung Pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now, or is it a Panda Express near you? Should we do some off-season stuff before we go? Yeah, let's do it. Duran. It feels like it's going to happen right when you're at a party

tomorrow night. I know. Everyone's talking about Durant. Everyone. The league is talking. Every team is talking. I would say the buzz order right now if I had to do a buzz rank is Minnesota.

Not as sold on that one as you. No, I'm just saying buzz. Like the buzz. Houston. Back up in the buzz rankings. That's another weird one because you're giving way possible Yonis assets for December to February

if that situation changes. We'll talk about Janus. We don't need to. He's not getting traded. I think you're probably right. He's not going to, he's staying this summer. I mean, he might get traded in December, January, February. He's not getting traded now.

The thing about that is, I think we, I can't remember what we talked about or not, but the whole gap year thing. Like, you know, gap year, like, east is crappy. Keep everybody. We'll be competitive. We'll be a top six seed. You'll be happy. And then we get Dane back.

And either we get Damian Lurbaugh back or we get, Damien Liller of the trade contract back and we flip them for something. Or he's Dana Barrow, circa 1998. But, like, I don't understand how that's a plan to, like, be an actual championship contender again. Where are all the other players coming from? Like, who else is joining? I just don't think there's a trade yet, and I don't think he's... It's up to him, and he doesn't want to get traded.

It is firmly up to him. Like, the interesting thing about this is you would think that some people with the bucks... Nah, maybe you wouldn't. Initially, I was like, well, the Bucks could see this as an opportunity. Like, look, the writing's on the wall. Dames hurt for a year. We don't have any bullets left in the trade machine. Like, it might be actually not so much in our worst interest to move on now and get everything we can possibly get.

Get the young players, assets, picks. And they've actually gone the other way. And I think they're probably right. He's 31. He's the third best player in the world. Yeah. And he would have loved playing in the game today because bodies were flying. Yeah.

And we don't trade players like that. No team should trade players like that. We'll figure enough out and try to figure out a path, whether it's one years, two years, three years. We've seen players stick with their teams. I think they've gone hard the other way. Like, no, hell no, we're not trading them. You're under contract.

Like also you're under contract. How can you watch this series and not think that your two moves away from being in the finals next year and you have Janus? But what are the moves? That's the hard part for them. I know. if I'm trading him and I'm trading him for a bunch of Houston stuff that, you know, they lost him around one.

All right. All right. Deramp us. Then it's like a big. So you agree with me that Janice, like, let's not even discuss this until December, January, February, because nothing's going to happen. I don't, we all know who the teams would be, what the offers would ballpark be. I think there's one more team that's not going to mention because it doesn't, wouldn't make sense now, but it might later. Wouldn't make the nets of Brooklyn.

Because they could set up. So not to bring the Celtics into this, although I love to do it. Celtics after they lose the lottery in 2007, you would not have thought they were a KG team. Then they trade for Ray Allen and suddenly they have stuff. And now maybe a KG trade. I think Brooklyn could use the summer to set up to stack some pieces to be ready for a Yonest trade. Right? Maybe they take true holiday from the Celtics.

maybe they use cap space and sign Nas Reid you know they they have all those picks I just feel like they could it could be a two part kind of offseason for them where they set up hey look at all these pieces we have now Janus and kind of hope that he gets unhappy all right Minnesota Houston and then I think there's a gap we argued about the Minnesota thing though because we can't figure out what the trade is that's fine we'll get there Miami still trying to get in I think. Wow. Spurs lurking.

Not sure, like, are we going to be that aggressive? Is this the right time for us? Lurking. Nicks, I think, might not be lurking anymore. I think they might be. We're moving on. Toronto, wild car team, lurking. Yeah, because Maasai's just like, you just don't know.

And I think there's this idea. It's like the relative who said five drinks at Thanksgiving. And you're like, oh, God. Well, and just hovering over all of this is Durant's eligible for a two-year $112 million extension. And he's 38. Is he going to sign it? Does he actually want to commit or does he want to maintain his flexibility? Do the sons, they are working with him, but does it behoove them to just trade him to where they get the most value, even if that team is a rental team for Kevin Durant?

And is there a team that would trade for him? we don't care if you extend or not, we'll figure it out later. Toronto did this with Kauai Leonard, and I think they have this idea, like, oh, we can do that again. The difference is they were like a 55 win team already. Yeah, they were awesome. And this is not a 55 win team. And they won the trade. They traded, what was it, the Rosen and Perth?

Yeah, yeah. So the Minnesota one is complicated because right now until the fiscal, the NBA year flips on July 1, Phoenix and Minnesota are both in the second April. You would have to be like, we're going to do this trade on July 1st, basically. That's barring something that I don't understand happening, yes. But then there's this weird thing where Gobert's salary goes backwards. And him and DiFenzo make like 47 million combined. And Durant makes like 53. And I still don't understand what's allowed and not allowed with this stupid second apron

that I'll never forgive the stupid players union for agreeing to the... The hard cap. Why don't we just call it the hard cap? It's just malpractice. It's malpractice by the Porter's Union. I mean, is there a team of... I think Minnesota wants Durant the most, from what I've heard. Houston is like, I think there's a little bit of an internal GM coach,

different idea of how much they should or would trade for Kevin Durant. Plus, if I'm Phoenix and you're building an offer around Jalen Green, which I think that's like the common sense salary to throw in. How does that help Phoenix? Jalen Green, Booker, Beal. It's like, it just doesn't... The Go bear. thing's fun. Gobert thing is like, Gobert and DeFranceo for Duran is just fun. I don't know how

that makes Minnesota closer to winning a title. I think their model would be we, whatever we do, we get enough financial flexibility for the 25, 26 season where we can pick up a Capella, a Brooke Lopez, like some kind of low-cost, decent center who can either start and play 20, minutes or you know we start naz reid at center and go all offense and then that guy comes in i think they piece it together that way if they end up trading go bear which i who knows if they're going to do or not i thought durante to the spurs was happening i'm still i'm suspicious if it cooled off because it makes me think maybe there's a different move for them i will say things are i think a little bit of a minor tradeback from two and somebody moving up and overpaying to move

up three spots because we talked about this last time. You're putting Wembe with Harper and Fox and Castle and Sohan. Is nobody, is anybody making a three out of those guys? Like the game we just went to, how's the spacing going to be looking in that game? Like, I just don't think that team makes sense. And that's, that's, I still feel like in my heart that Vassell and Barnes and the 14th pick and like 14. 14's a big one. Houston has 10 too.

They have number 10 from Phoenix. You mean for a move-up? No, for like, Duran. I wouldn't give up the 10th for, I, if I'm Houston, I'm not doing anything. I'm waiting for December, January, February with a major star.

I do like the fit though. I like, on Duran. Yeah. We both heard that he would have mine in Texas. Well, I just, I mean, he's from Texas. the Spurs are also in Texas. Yeah, there's two Texas teams.

There's something to the Van Vleet stays. And like they really, financially it becomes actually very difficult. And Van Vleet's salary is a critical variable. Like can they go down with him and out on an extension to make the apron math work? But Van Vlite, Durant, Schengoon as an offensive trio makes a lot of sense to me. And then you just surround them with the terror twins and just athletes and defenders and just everywhere. Like, that's a really, really...

It's a team that needs him the most. It's a really good team. That's a team that's like, yeah, I mean, you know, can we beat anybody? We would be favored against anybody except the Thunder? I don't know. It depends on the offseason. Nuggets are not going anywhere.

Unbelievable home crowd of empty seats. Not one of my favorite crowds. Not like the crowd we just sat in a game with. Nuggets are going to have a new GM, I think, by the way. But that's a different story. Well, they... They hired the coach before they hired the GM. Yeah, the coach was already there, though.

No, I know. Is there a team you think that we haven't talked about for Durant that should be trying to get Durant? And if you had to bet, would you bet on San Antonio then swooping in? I would bet on the state of Texas. All right. I'm betting on Minnesota. I don't know. I just think when push comes to shove, I think you have to look at the happiness factor.

and wonder why he hasn't seemed to be in happy situations for seven years now. What's going on? Is that a coincidence or something more? I already have... And also, like, he's going to... If he goes to Minnesota, he's going to be the number two ball handling option to a young ascending star in Anthony Edwards, just like he was in Phoenix to Devin Booker.

Like, how does he feel about that? There was always this push and pull of like, am I standing in the corner too much? whatever. Do they cooperate enough offensively? Is there enough synergy between them? The same questions would come up again. Are we sure we should cross off the trait?

No, they're on my list. I mean, I don't know that they've dabbled in it at all. I don't know if there's, I mean, it's one of my favorite fake team, fake, again, the East is going to be so bad. You could just basically throw together. Oh, it's right there. The last year at Tobias. Isaiah Stewart, gets you to $42 million. Plus, you got to give me something.

You got to give me picks. You got to give me picks. You got to give me an Ivy. You got to give you something. But yeah, the salary matches right there. It's going to be Texas. Cade, Durant. I just can't wait to see what kind of life event you're having when the trade happens.

Well, do. You're going to be like in some over 40 swim meet in Connecticut, like halfway through the breaststroke and the trade will happen. The next 72 hours, I have a lot of stuff going on. So I'm anticipating a trade happening in there. And you know what? So can trade. Can't remember. We've had trades during the finals.

Denver made a couple trades during the Denver made a trade when they were in the finals, the draft pick trade, but they made a trade. I actually went on the- You know what trade happened in the finals? Net's salary dump to set up the Durant-Kiree free agency bonanza. They made a salary dump during the finals. I don't remember who it was at the top of my head. I've already found my point card for the nuggets for the,

I think they have a $6 million taxpayer. Russ is out. I know. Resign Russ at a bigger number. I'm buying some property on Luke Conard, Yokic Island. Oh. Yeah. Luke Conard.

He might shoot 60% on threes. Can you imagine Luke Conard playing with Yokage? How much fun would that be? Has Luke Conard ever been on the right team? He's been in the league like 10 years. Has there ever been a good situation for him? He gets to play with Yokic and just do weird, lefty shit and shoot threes?

I think the clippers thought they would be the perfect situation for him and they just never trusted in a play defensively in the playoffs. I like that. Luke Conard. That's a six million bucks for Luke Conard. I can't believe that's coming out. Yeah, I'm already doing my free agency homework. Just groggy.

Just groggy bills. Nobody has money. Nobody is money. It's either six million or ten million for like 30 guys. And Brooklyn is the one that has money. And I honestly think Brooklyn is just going to tank again. just give us your dead money and picks.

We're just doing, we're just rolling it again. Oh shit. After what Presti did, that should be the model for five of these teams. I never, I never understand why more people

have been emulated that. Everyone's so afraid of the salary cap four, but the salary cap four only counts like after on March 1st. You can go into the season with like a $30 million team if you want. I think they changed that rule. You got to get to the floor sooner, no.

I think. Oh, did that? That was part of the new CBA for the... That's good. They try to continue to ruin roster fun. Well, I mean, I think that was when you said the players got hammered with the hard cap. I'm calling it the hard cap now. Enough with this apron language.

Second apron's a hard cap. I think... If we can't make a Kevin Durant for Rudy Gober and Dante, Gifincenjo trade becomes impossible, like we're doing something wrong. You know, honestly, you go to the other thing is you go to Real GM and you look at the traded picks. These are like swaps of swaps of swaps and it's like... They get the second and fourth best of these picks. I'm not reading that whole paragraph.

Just wake me up when it's decided who's picking where. I feel like Stern would have created a rule to just squash all this. You can't trade a pick that's already been traded. He would have had some sort of swaps upon swaps upon swaps. No Larry Legend citing tonight, right? I thought it was a big mistake. I've heard, I cannot confirm because I have not seen him, I've heard he's been here for their pre-draft workouts.

They still bring him up for free draft workouts, which means he's either leaving or Dave just, he doesn't want to do away. Because we're super groggy. Can I throw this at you? Yes. Most shocking player you think could get traded over the next three weeks. This is so exciting.

That wouldn't be 100% shocking to you. Mine is Devin Booker. I mean, 100% shocking means. 100% shocking means. like the Spurs have traded Wembe Gama. Like that's that's 100% shock. Anything short of, I don't think Devon Booker's getting traded.

I'm, he's my guy. Why? I'm just prepared for anything with Phoenix. Like the easy pick would be Lamella Ball. I mean, I could make a, we could usually make a more aggregatable pick than that. You could? We could.

We both could. We either one of us could. If the Warriors tried to trade for Janus, Is Jimmy Butler in the deal? I imagine Jimmy Butler getting traded to the sad sack bucks. He went to college. I know, but like, what is he going to do? Throw a rebellion until they buy him out and trade him somewhere and he can go somewhere else.

Some big salary is got to be in that deal. If you go and look at the word of salaries. Now you're trading Janice after he said he's not getting traded. I'm saying in like December, January, February. Why would you do it like that, mid-season? Like, is it going south and I just like I'm ready to get out of here? We're 13 and 20. I don't want to waste my career doing this.

Dames not close to coming back. Devin Booker, I've heard you top Devin Booker. I've heard he's excited about Jordan Ott. Okay. And not as concerned as I would be personally. So give me a pick then. About like who's going to be on the team in two years with me. If I'm Devin Booker, like, he's all right.

Also, I Godoro. A Godoro. Ryan Dunn with two ends. I'm passing to you. Also, they're in the West. Yeah, West is really good. Okay, C. All right.

Well, why don't we, we, we're getting, it's late. It's late. You said not 100% shocking. But shocking. No, but very shocking. Very shocking, but not Luca getting traded on a Saturday night. Oh, my God. Shocking.

Unemployed. Actually, Luca would have been a good guest for this. Unemployed Zach, sleeping soundly in bed, waking up to a phone full of messages. All right. Then let's just do this. Are you 100% sure? Yeah.

That LeBron James is going to be on the Lakers next year? No. Well, that's going to be my pick. Give me the reasons. Well, I just, I mean, no one's, I'm, I haven't anticipated all along. He's going to finish his career with the Lakers. Yeah. I don't think he wants to leave Los Angeles.

If I were him, I would view the Luca trade is like, this is fucking perfect. I can, I can be off the ball a little bit more. or blah, blah, blah. He does have a player option, and the feeling is just, everyone just kind of assumes, well, I'll figure something out.

It's been too quiet. Normally, he creates, like, the news for a day kind of storyline, like, LeBron James might not stay with the Lakers. It'll be something and it's like, oh, here we go. And then it turns out he's staying,

this time around it's been super quiet, which makes me suspicious. I've thought the same thing. but if he's opting out or if they're pushing for a trade, I mean, I talked about the Cleveland stuff a month ago. I don't, there's just not a lot of places. Did you? I miss that.

I just, I thought it was like a DeAndre Hunter, Jared Allen for LeBron is a fun one. It is definitely a who would have a longer meeting to decide whether they should do it or not. I don't see how he goes to any other team than Cleveland if he leaves the Lakers. I'm trying to think who else is a good answer for this. something clippersy. Something clippersy. Hardin's a good answer for this. Or even Kauai feels like a...

Well, nobody's trading for Kauai. Yeah. Hardin's a good answer for this. John Morant. That's a good answer for this. Embed? I just can't imagine trading for Mbid. The contract is just so onerous.

Even Sarver's like, yeah. Other thing is Nick's coach. Mike Brown, Taylor Jenkins, come on down. Yeah, it seems like that, man. probably some mystery candidate. I envisioned a joint Rick Carlisle, Mark Dagnall, press conference at the finals when they both announced that their teams have denied the next permission to interview them.

But is it, are they doing it just to, are they trying to spite the owner by doing that? Or are they doing it so that whoever they hire, nobody's going to say, why didn't they try to get himadocco? And they're like just checking boxes. I don't know. It's all very strange, what they're doing. Public due deal.

If that's your reason, if you're doing public due diligence, I don't get it. Then you should just call for Spolstra. You should call it. Why stop it, Billy Donovan? Why just keep going? If you're trying to show your fans, we did everything we could. See? I had a couple of Miami fans of my life who were furious that I wanted to blow up the heat.

Really? And I'm like, why? You guys are going to go $40, 2 and 40 for the next five years. You pay Tyler Hero $55 million a year? what kind of team are you going to have? Did you see the clip that, again, I assume everything is AI, so maybe it's AI. The Tyler Hero doesn't think history happened before 1950. It doesn't believe anything that happened before 1950.

Not a lot of great follow-up questions about the other two guys in the video either. I would have been like, so World War II just made up? Like, it's right before 1950. I don't know for sure, but it felt like there might have been some weed involved in that video because they seemed delighted to talk about our history, couldn't be trusted before in 1950. So that was not AI. That was real.

It was unfortunately real. All right. Any other concluding thoughts? Anything we did not talk about? Game four of the finals, awesome. Indiana, awesome finals host. Indianapolis, awesome finals host. Lots of X's and O's.

We talked to Rand. We talked Janus. We talked to offseason. Nick's coaching search. Johnny Furfee came up at one point. Anything we did not hit? Guy in front of me was wearing an Artesstas jersey. Our test Pacers jersey.

I really respected it. Number 23. I really like seeing the different jerseys. I like that they bring old Pacers in there, like Austin Crozier. We got to see him. Jeff Foster? Jeff Foster, everybody.

Reggie Miller was wearing a Dale Davis jersey, which I really enjoyed. Dude, I loved Dale Davis as a teenager. Darnell Hillman was in the house with Billy Keller. Oh, my God. It was just, this is, I mean, they've had professional basketball here since the beginning of the ABA.

they have real history and have had some fun teams. And they're also kind of like, there are these teams like the sons are like this in the West where they've just been good a lot, like for the most of their history and just never gotten over the hump of Pacers. Never good enough. And really like. Roy was there, by the way.

Roy was there. Shout out to Roy. I didn't see him. Unbelievable career arc. Yeah, there were Pacers strewn all over the place. That's great. I love it. Derek McKee was here.

I saw Derek McKee was in the crowd. It's so much more fun from content standpoint if the Pacers won tonight. You think so? More fun? Because I do think OKC is good enough that they could have come back from 3-1. We would be having a who's your frontrunner for finals MVP discussion. Well, my degenerate friend, Sal House, I'm on one of my threads. They were San Siakum's odds dropped by like the third quarter.

He was like plus 250 for finals MVP. was like 30 to 1 before the game. What was Halliburton? Going the other way. Yeah. Now it's, I think SGA's. I was with you guys after the Eastern Conference finals, you and Ryan.

I just feel like if there's one guy that defines the team, I don't really care that another guy averaged like three more points per game than him during the series. Like Halliburton should have been. This was Maxwell's finals MVP was like this too. Like if you're going to start measuring the stats and the stats are slightly better, I still want to default to you're by far the best part in the team

and the other team is planning against you should matter. Also, the whole style of play is because of you. Not all of it, like most of it emanates. It all starts with... He just doesn't get the credit for it like Nash did and Chris Paul did.

I think we understood that with those guys. I mean, all of us, tomorrow is going to be is he a superstar. That's what the... Listen, people should go to one of the games and watch how good Ludo it is. I just, I can't say it enough times. You can't go by him.

And he's too fucking strong and he's allowed to, he's figured out all of the lines he can get away with with the physicality. And you can't go buy him and he can guard everybody in the league. And he's the best defensive player in the league. It's, um. And Crusoe might be in the top five. And Jalen Williams might be in like the top 10. It's, it's actually, um, yeah, they have a whole like a bunch of guys who could have made all

defense teams that were not eligible to make. You can guard everyone on the Pacers. I'm talking about like Caruso, Hardinstein, Holmgren, none of them were eligible for all defense. They still had two guys on the all defense teams. Yeah. Dort should not be possible.

Like, you should not be able to be that big and able to guard a quick twitch guy like Halliburton. Like, those two things should be incongruent. You should be able to do that. He's one of those guys. He's actually kind of stunning in person,

how big he is. Yeah, he's huge. He looks like, like, if you just saw him walk, like, if he was at the gym wearing workout clothes, and he walked in. You wouldn't know what sport he played. You would believe he could be a tight end in football, whatever in basketball. If he were a bouncer outside of a bar, he could be anything.

You would be like, this must be a pretty rough bar if they have this guy as the bouncer. Right. He just walks out for media availability. He could be the bad guy in an action movie. Like, he's just got a presence to him. And I felt like he really wanted to fuck with Halberton tonight. Like he was going out of his way to mess with them. It was interesting, Haliburton was so rattled by the calls he's,

didn't get that when he finally got a call, he was holding his hand. Did you see that? He was holding his hands up. Like, I got a call. I can't believe it. Then he made a free throw. It's like, I made one. He's just completely lost his confidence for drawing.

Whereas Shea is always going to be able to get his. All right. I think that's it. I think we covered everything. We did. I had a great time, even though I had a really important milkshake at halftime. They have a great shake place in Indiana. And it was basically like doing cocaine.

cane and really carried me through the second half. I get stressed. I get stressed with halftime runs, whether it's bathroom runs, snack runs. Yeah. And I'd be like, I can't miss a position. I don't want to get back there and I miss the first three possessions. They have some specialized food stops. And one of them was this shake place.

Okay. Vanilla, chocolate? I had an Oreo shake. They had like six shakes. It's like a pretty famous Pacers thing. So I had to try it. And I was like, I'm just going to drink like one third of it. I was like, mulling it.

I had like four fifths of it. So that really helped me. Shout out to the second half. Because it was a tense game. That's it for the Zach Lowe show. Thank you to Bill Simmons. Thank you to Jesse and Jonathan on production. And I will be back.

I'm not sure when I will be back. My show is supposed to be on Monday, but the next game is on Monday night. So I'm not sure what we're right there. We're going to figure something out. Thanks to everyone for listening. And 2-2, baby. What else could you ask for?

Three games left, max, in the season for the NBA championship. Phenomenal finals. I'd give it either an A or an A plus. Great stuff. It's for the real hoopers, for the real hoop fans. There you go. Bill Simmons, everybody. Thank you, sir.

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