The Zach Lowe Show - The Annual Most Confusing Teams Podcast With John Hollinger

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Zach welcomes in John Hollinger for their annual look at which teams confuse them the most (1:58). Along the way, the pair discuss the Spurs (12:28), Celtics (17:19), Raptors (21:55), and Rockets (30:41). Which team do they agree on? And which team did Hollinger change Zach’s mind on? They also touch on the Mavericks (37:01), Pacers (52:01), Suns (57:18), some baseball talk, and a whole lot more. Host: Zach Lowe Guest: John Hollinger Producers: Mike Wargon, Jesse Aron, and Victoria Valencia Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, happy Monday, everyone. Preseason games are happening. You all dialed in, you sickos. It's time for one of my favorite episodes of the year. It's been an annual one I've been doing since basically this podcast existed in its prior form that shall not be named. My five most confusing teams of the year.

Confusing, what does it mean? It could mean one of two things. This is the criteria. I'm the dictator. I define it. Confusing could mean high level of variance in a team's win total. Are they going to be much better than expected, much worse than expected uncertainty there? Or just like, what?

What is this going to look like on the floor? How is this all going to fit together? I'm very confused by that. We got John Hollinger, the greatest ever do it, filling in the old Kevin Arnavitz role. Remember Kevin? On the five most confusing teams podcast, we're going to hit lots of teams. I don't know his teams. I didn't tell him my teams.

I bet we have some overlap. I've got three East teams, two West teams. We're going to talk about that. Hit some of the news of the weekend all coming up after this on the Zach Lowe show. You're listening to the Zach Lowe show presented by Fanduel. This NBA season put the power of the sports book in your hands with fan duels your way. Your way lets you create bets. you can't find anywhere else.

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about the resources and help lines available. Listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 or over in President Select States and 18 or over in D.C., Kentucky and Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG.com. Call 1-88-78-9-7-77 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show.

It's time for one of my favorite episodes of every year. I've been doing this since the previous incarnation of this podcast started. It was called the Low Post, I think, something like that. My five most confusing teams of the year, and I have a new tag team partner for this. He is the greatest to ever do it from the athletic, Mr. John Hollinger. How are you? You're too kind. Thank you for having me on the show.

Go brew crew. I see the hat. I respect the hat. I was actually asked before this podcast by my producer Jesse, who's a Dodgers fan. Have I jumped on the Dodgers bandwagon? I said absolutely not. My order of operations is this. Number one, Yankees don't win.

Number two, two of my best friends from college, shout out Lucas and Nate are Mariners fans. They have never won. So they have to go ahead of the brewers. And then the brewers who have also never won. and like what's not to like about the Brewers? Midwest, Milwaukee, Cool City, loyal fans. The guy slides down the slide. So you're third on my list.

Okay. Well, I'm hoping for Brewers Mariners. I have some Northwest friends. I'm probably going to go out there for one of those games if that happens. So we'll see. You know, they haven't been back since I was, I mean, they haven't been in the series since I was 12. So exciting times.

Okay. Five most confusing teams. This dates back to the great Kevin Arnowitz. He was the original attack team partner with me for this. Shout out, Kevin. My criteria, as I told you, is for me, at least, the confusion stems from one of two places or both. Number one, this team, in my opinion, could be like way better than expected or way worse than expected. Some win total variance.

Like, we know who the great teams are going to be. We know who some of the bad teams are going to be. Even the average teams, I feel pretty confident, like, well, that team could win 43, 39. That's not that exciting. I want variants. or I just want like, wait, what? Like, who's on this team? How is this going to work?

Like, what happened here? What's going on? Like, how is this actually going to look when the basketball games start? So we each picked five. We didn't tell each other who we picked. I'm going to set the over under on how many teams we both picked at two and a half. And I'm going to take the under. I'm going to guess we have two of the same teams.

And I'm going to, I have three East. teams and two West teams. What's your conference break down? Okay. I'm three east, two west. I think I think there is one team that we will definitely have the same and then I'm curious what your other four are. I am going to let you go first because I am generous in whichever order you want your first most confusing team that you would like to discuss John Hollinger. The obvious lowest hanging piece of fruit possible. The Philadelphia 76ers who will win anywhere between 13 and 60 games this season. I did not pick them among my five.

What? You know why? Because I just feel like I have nothing to say. I, I, it's, they're just team if we all know the ifs. I have already, I'm just, I'm out like on the, all, if it all comes together, they could win the East and make the finals. Like, I'm out on that.

But I want you to make the case for confusion. You're just tired of them? Like, I mean, like, I just, I, I, I, I, I, I, I told the story last week on the pot. I was out to lunch with some NBA people, and one of them was like starting the, like, I don't know, guys, like if blah, blah, blah, blah. And his case started with,

if Joel Embed played 60 games this year, and I was like, I'm just going to stop you right there. No, just no. But you go ahead. I'm interested, actually, because without Embedd last year, they were just atrociously terrible in any non-imede minutes.

And I don't think they have to be. Like, I think they could be decent enough in the games. Joel isn't playing. Part of that depends on Paul George being healthy, which it seems like he's probably not. But some of that is like Grimes was really good at the end of last year. VJ. Edgecom is, I was really high on him coming out of the draft. We'll see how quickly he can scale up to being an efficient guard. But he gives them an athleticism, especially combined with Maxi,

that was just missing for so much a last. year. McCain, once he's on the court, I mean, he had a little setback in preseason, but he's going to be out there. I think their second line guys are going to be a lot better than all the old dudes they were trotting out last year. I think Trenton Watford can help them. So, like, I'm kind of interested about what's there, even aside from the Embed stuff. I think Janai Broom's second round pick. I think he might actually be a player. So I'm just kind of interested there. I like Justin Edwards, too. I think he has a chance to be a decent rotation player to your point about just like the depth like does does bona get the drum

into minutes or do we have to suffer through more drum in minutes i see i see which edgecombe looks awesome in preseason um Kelly uber is still here played really hard last year and i mean that sincerely like i love he was like the most joyful part of the team other than maxi and maybe late season grimes last year look i guess i guess they're just not on here because i'm doing over unders with bill next week so i don't want to do overunders too detailed here They're at 42 and a half. No idea what to do with that. You could tell me they go over that and they have a nice year and win 49 games.

I'd be like, yeah, it's probably like Joel probably played 55 games. Everyone was more or less healthy. No one's healthy now. Like none of the key guys are playing currently other than Maxie. I just, I guess my, there's this latent hope that, yeah, you know, the East is bad. Joel, like healthy Joel was the best player in the conference or at worst neck and neck with Janus. and he was an MVP and like maxi's a rising star and i wholeheartedly believe in tyris maxi future all NBA player um you know maybe it all comes together and boston's out and indiana's out

and you know cleveland is anyone scared of them and the nicks you know they got a i just i just can't get there and so my interest level in the team can you get there are you saying you could get there like you haven't given up on a team that hasn't even made the conference finals in joel mbe's career could somehow make the finals are you holding out hope I'm holding out like the tiniest sliver of possibility. I think the stronger sliver of possibility is like they win 50 and losing the second round, which still would, I mean, after last year, that would qualify as a really good year, wouldn't it? Jobs would be saved.

For sure, for sure. And, yeah, there are some hot seats there. I mean, things get interesting definitely on that run, too. But there, I mean, there's just so much variance around this team. high and low end. And they're also, I mean, an important thing here and for the overrunners next week is incentives, right? And this team is pretty heavily incentivized to go for as many wins as possible for a lot of different reasons.

Unless they try to do what they did last year at the end with the pick day, Oklahoma City. But it's even more heavily protected this year. You got to luck into it this year because it's only top four protected. So things would have to be so off the rails for that to come into play. for them to be like, okay, we got it, we got it, we got a, we got a, we're in a fight here with Washington and Utah. Let's go, you know. What was your take on, um, on the Grimes qualifying offer and their offer to him being like four years 40? Obviously, they have tax issues that may be ultimately

what motivated them to just low ball quitting Grimes. But that offer to me is, is like a non-offer, like no chance he's ever going to take that. And you're signaling like, we either don't care if he's on our team long term or we think we can resign him in the offseason. But how did you think, what did you think of that whole ordeal? It's, it sure seemed to me like the first apron was a big factor in that for, for whatever reason, because 10 million is the exact number that keeps you under. That you're like, you're like a dollar and 43 cents under if you pay Grimes 10 million. So, and then there's the tax issue too, obviously, where if he's in that level of salary, you're one trade away from getting under if you trade Ubre at the deadline.

And anything above that, things get much more complicated. So I sort of get, I mean, this is a franchise, Darry in particular. I'd say of the league's GMs, he's probably the most comfortable with being uncomfortable, right? Like we saw it with the Ben Simmons thing. We saw it with the Harden thing. Whereas a lot of teams get kind of nervous. and try to bottle things up and just get things to the finish line. I think they're okay playing things out for as long as they need to play out.

And the Grime situation is a perfect example. Yeah, they'll still have bird rights on them next summer. They could do a sign and trade. They've lost their flexibility to move him in season this year, most likely. But it gives him some additional flexibility and options going forward. And maybe they just didn't want to lock in anything until they see what they have with them. beat in Paul George this year, which would be an understandable position. Yeah, totally understandable.

And if Grimes and his agent were not going to budge from 25 to 30 a year, then like, fine. Then there's just no room for negotiation. I think Grimes is good. I think there'd be value in having him on the team, this team or any other team long term. But if the finance is or what they were, fine. I don't want to hear about trading Kelly Uber. I know the tax. And I know that Daryl more is comfortable being uncomfortable.

Like that would be his WWE catchphrase and T-shirt if he were a wrestler. just comfortable being uncomfortable. But, and if, because if you're not a superstar, he just doesn't really care about, like if you're pissed off at the team or whatever. Like,

everything can be rectified. So I get all that. But Kelly Ubray, man, in that, on that team last year where everything went wrong and everybody was sulking, that dude just like balls to the wall every minute he was on the floor.

I really enjoyed watching him last year. I'm a little nervous that he's there, quote unquote, power forward right now on the depth. chart. Like, they have no fours. Other than Watford and maybe Jabari Walker, if he makes the real roster. Okay, I'm going to let you pick again because you just, you came out hot.

And so I'm going to give you the second pick in the confusing draft. Second pick in the confusing draft is San Antonio. They're not on my list either. And not because I'm not confused by them, but because I want to devote a whole, like, separate segment at some point to them. And so we are now 0 for two. So I'm going to take the third pick next. But make the case for San Antonio.

And would they have been on your list already if even before the Fox hamstring, maybe not going to be ready for opening night thing? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Okay. I actually, because the Fox part is the most confusing part of it. If you go back to last year and the trade for him where like, okay, we made this big splash trade for Fox.

and then you watched the first several games before Fox went out. And it's like, wow, he sure is jogging to the corner a lot. Like, why did you trade for this guy again? The inability to incorporate him was kind of shocking. And they still, I feel like as awesome as Victor is, like no player in the league makes you just cackle in the middle of watching a game like Victor does, right? But in the midst of all that, it still feels like they're not really matter. maximizing him. There's a lot of kind of wishy-washy jumpers thrown in. You know, can we get this giant guy at the rim a little more?

The thing, working out the whole thing with the guards with Fox and Harper and Castle is going to be really interesting. The roster still feels like kind of a mishmash. There's not a lot of shooting. You know, Kelden Johnson is kind of an on-ball score or two. Like where does he fit in with all these guys? There's this whole thing of like, what are they? Right? Like Sohan, what's their plan with Sohan? He's in the last year of his deal. So, and then that gets right down to Mitch, like is Mitch Johnson the guy?

I think you talk to people in the league. They weren't like blown away by his playbook last year. And was he handcuffed because he was trying to do Popovich's stuff? Are we going to see more like the real Mitch Johnson this year? Like, who knows? So I, there's just, there's just a lot of questions. a lot of wonder for me. They, as the high side, they could end up being really good, right?

Or they could miss the playoffs. Yeah, my initial take on them in the summer in July after all the action was over was, A, they're going to extend Fox at the max and I'm fine with that. I'm pro that. I'm fine with it. I get it. I'm not as concerned as a lot of people are. I'm bullish on the Fox Wembe partnership.

Five games total last year they played together. And I said whatever the over under is, I'm taking the over. I think this team is much closer to the like clippers, Lakers, warriors sort of tier of fighting for the six fifth seeds in the West than they are to like nine, ten play in tournament. My optimism has been a little tempered because I think I underestimated the shooting issues around Wembenyama that they're going to have. Vassell, who I've always been high on, the impact has just, never quite matched the sort of look of his game as a shooter and a score. Part of that is defense. And their depth, like you said, like, you know, they got, they're loaded at center. That's great when their best player is also a center. A lot of their depth pieces like Helden Johnson and Zohan are

negative to neutral at best shooters. Carter Bryant, is he ready to do anything offensively? Like anything? I love him long term. So their depth worries me a little bit. I just still err on the side of like when benyama is so goddamn good and he's going to make them elite by himself on one end of the floor that I think I'm just still going to lean like 47-ish optimistic with them. I don't know that I'm as exuberant as like if everything hits, they could be 50 something, but I'm still optimistic, but I see the warts now. And I see like the lack of the shaky three-point shooting to me is the biggest one. I'm about in the same ballpark as their overall win total, but I still don't really know what this looks like when the actual game start, though. And I'm just a little nervous that it's just going to look like a mess and that the West is so unforgiving. Like you can't just fake your way to 41 wins in that conference.

No. And look, and they are well positioned to make a big trade at some point. That's always easier to do in the offseason that it is in the same. season and not only to make the trade, but to have the trade, like, really spark your team to go up a level. But they do have the goods. All right, I'm going to take a pick. Do you want me to go super obvious or do you want me to go like splashy? You decide the genre. All right. Let's go splashy. The Boston Celtics are one of my five most confusing teams. Did you have them or no? I did not. I do not feel that confused by them. Okay. Are you just confident they're going to be aggressively mediocre?

Yeah, 100%. Like they're going to trade Simons for somebody who makes less or they'll trade Hauser like one or the other to get themselves out of the tax entirely and just spend the rest of the year positioning themselves for next year, right? They have three good perimeter guys who will make them respectable and their front court will be embarrassing. And that's kind of where they'll end up. And maybe that gets you to the play in. And maybe that gets you to the play in. and maybe it doesn't. I guess my confusion is only, stylistically I have some confusion.

Like, I call the Celtics team extreme because they are just so at the extremes in so many ways. Like they never get to the rim. They never get to the free throw line. They take a million three-pointers. On defense, they never let their opponents get to the free throw line. They never let their opponents get to the rim.

By the way, can that be sustained without your entire big man rotation from last year, including your best rim protector in Porzingis when he was available. And Horford's still quite good. Derek White also a great rim protector. They were like extraordinarily slow and low turnovers. Like how do they, and I do feel like they got kind of stuck in a rut offensively as great as their offense was. And like, how do they use this year?

Everyone's assuming, oh, well, they'll just Missoula Ball. And I love that Missoula hates the label Missoula Ball. I enjoyed that over the weekend. will they just math ball their way to more wins than expected? I'm more like, can we use this year to get away from like the 9 million threes and try to reintroduce ourselves to the basket, the orange thing where it's good to get closer to it and put the ball into it and maybe get fouled a little bit? So I'm interested in how they play.

And I guess my curiosity is to me there's like some lingering like Celtics optimism, like the sheen of the last 10 years of being in tender every year. They play smart. They have white. They have Pritchard. They have brown. And like there seems to just be optimism that when I look at the team, I'm like, I just think it's unreasonable.

Their depth is completely unproven. They're big man rotation. Like I think they're going to start Houser at the four, Jalen at the four picket, and Kada at the five. But, you know, and then it's like Boucher, Garza. They can play those guys with Kada a little bit. Shireman's going to play. play. My not's going to play. Simons, I think, will come off the bench. And I agree he's a trade candidate.

Like, a tax ducking or cutting move is very likely. I guess what I'm saying is like, I think they're going to be worse than people expect because of that sheen of like the Celtics. They just win a lot of games. Like, I just don't see it. And I'm also interested in like how they play without Tatum, without all. What does, what does Jill and Brown look like as a leading man? Like, is this going to be like 10 for 31 every Or is he still going to be able to generate some efficiency? Maybe 12 for 31. Okay. Again, I want the assist to tick up.

Like, I'm interested in that. I guess that's what I'm saying. Like, everyone, like people think of this year's Celtics as Jalen Brown taking a million shots and the team taking a million threes. I would like to see them try to experiment a little bit more. Use this year as an opportunity to play a little differently or just sort of lean into different parts of their game. I just don't get the optimism.

I don't see it. I don't see them. People are like, I don't know, succeed. Like, they'll just Celtics their way into getting out of the play.

And I'm like, okay, like over who? Milwaukee, Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland, New York.

Like, I don't, I don't see it. No, I'm on the underside on these guys. I'm trying to think if there's any other Celtics stuff wanted to hit.

No, I just, the interior defense. I don't know, I don't know how they do it. Okay. Free Josh, mine it.

Yeah, I mean, he's got stuff. Like, he's got stuff to his game. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines?

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was the most obvious team okay and I can't believe that they haven't come up yet and I'm a little bit worried you didn't even have them on your team okay the most confusing mismash in the entire NBA possibly your 2025 2026 Toronto Raptors yes they were on my list all right we have now have one overlap. They're over under as of today is 39 and a half, which in the East is like, that's a vote of no confidence in you. If you're over the tax, over the tax, okay? And you have this starting lineup of Ingram Barnes, Barrett, Pertle, quickly, all big money

players. Pertil got a big money extension that I didn't really understand in the offseason, quickly makes $32 million in perpetuity seemingly. and Vegas is like, that's cool, 39 and a half. Meet the Pacers without like half their team from last year. My confusion is twofold. Can they actually be better than that and markedly so based on their just sheer talent? Like Scotty Barnes makes a leap, I'm still a believer that he's going to make an all-MBA team at some point in the next two or three years.

The Ingram thing works better than expected. One of the shooting guards who's going to come off the bench, Dick, Walter, or Abaji, whoever, makes a little bit of a leap. CMB fits in really well. Maybe they even play some small ball five, some five out lineups without Pertil on the floor. Like, you could talk me into like, oh my God, are the Raptors going to win 46 games?

I don't see a floor much lower than this line, 39 and a half. Like it would surprise me if they were much worse than that. And then my confusion is like, how in the hell is this going to work with all of these dudes on the floor? You look at their core lineups from last year, and I realized no Ingram. Quickly in Barnes, minus 16 in 747 minutes. Bad offense. Quickly Barnes-Purdle, about net even in 325 minutes.

Bad offense. The big four together, quickly Barrett Barnes-Purdle, played in nine total games. 140 minutes minus 29, bad offense. How they were 26 in offense. 15th in defense they had the number one defense in the NBA after March 1st is that anything like real

what happened there is that is any of that sustainable so is the defense like a legit top 10 defense and is there any hope like how is this offense going to get out of the mud those are my sources of confusion take it away so you left out the biggest source of confusion

which is just what the hell are these guys even doing but beyond that so you have a talented starting five, right, that does not appear to fit together all that well. Barnes and Ingram both really want to be on the ball. Not really, I mean, Ingram, if you can convince him that threes are worth more than twos

and he should shoot a few off the catch, I think it could be a more potent floor spacer than he's been in New Orleans. The bench does not appear to be very good. Ingram gets hurt every single year, so you're already cutting into your depth that way. the other interesting thing here is can they trade RJ Barrett for somebody who fits better? I mean, they have picks if they want to go that direction because that is the one thing I think that could raise the level of that starting five is if as if Barrett was changed into somebody else.

Like ideally, I guess you'd want it to be like your long-term vision for Jacoby Walter where he's this. 3 and D guy who's, you know, adds value on both ends of the floor. Like, if you could have Jacobi Walter be a starting level player and then Barrett is your sixth man, then you're, you start feeling pretty good about this team, right? I also have a soft spot for Sandro Mamukalashvili. I think that pickup may pay dividends for them. But I mean, the rest of this like bench and rosters really kind of blah. So it's tough to get too inspired. there. Do they have like Barnes? I agree with you on his long-term potential. Is he a top 15 player in the league this year? No. No. I'm going no on that. You know, they kind of, they've kind of bit against themselves on a lot of these contracts. And now they're, as you say, they're right at the tax. They'll probably get under by cutting somebody before opening day. But still, like, you're right at that line and you're just a blah team and that like you might make the playoffs because you're in the east. But are you an actual playoff team?

I have a hard time getting there. I'm just generally confused by. I mean, I do want to see what this looks like on the court. They actually come to Atlanta for the first game of the season, so I will see them early. But, yeah, I just don't know what to make of them. You think the Hawks are going to win like 65 games? What should, like 60 games?

What's the safe? Come on, 64. No, no, no, no. Kaka! I think more like high 40s, maybe they get to 50. That's probably like ballpark. They're not in my five most confusing teams because I'm not confused. I'm optimistic and just smiling.

Okay, Raptors, I'm going to make the case, the optimistic case, just for this team. The case would be the defense is real-ish and they're like the ninth or tenth best defense in the league. And I do think the model for this team is size, pressure, frenzy, and run. We've got to run on offense to mitigate the clunkiness, the spacing issues. And if you look at their surge to the top of the league, a lot of fake stuff happens in March and April, right? And they had the number one defense after March 1st. Some of it was their strengths kind of became stronger. Like they force a lot of turnovers.

That's by design. And they force even more in that stretch. teams shot all year bizarrely badly on threes and long twos some of that was surely luck like i don't think the raptor is genius to their way into some sort of jettie mind trick defense that was actually sustainable but length and frenzy we have seen it with nicknurse teams can do some damage to opposing jump shooters that got stingier as that those numbers got lower as as the season went on their rebounding got a little better so if you think if you just sort of take like there's a decent infrastructure here.

Maybe they got a little lucky. That net's out is like, this could be the ninth or tenth best defense in the NBA. Then the case on offense would be somehow in Darko Ryakovich's system of, you know, we want to use both sides of the court. We do a pick and roll with Pertil on one side, swing it, handoff on the other side with Barnes and quickly working together. We vary up the two-man combinations used quickly as a screener, all that trickery. We get up to like 17th in offense.

I just don't see a way that this is a good offensive team. Can they sniff average with just a little bit of system, a little bit of shot making, better transition play? They were like horrendously inefficient in transition last year. And staggering the minutes dramatically so that two of those four perimeter starters are on the floor at the same time and we separate the overlapping skills as much as possible. Yeah, got to do that. And someone pops off the bench. You mentioned Barrett. But the logical move is hope that one of those shooting guards pops enough that you can put

him in the starting five and Barrett comes off the bench. I don't see it. His dad is the freaking head of Canada basketball. He's Canadian. He makes a lot of money. To me, it's like he's a more likely trade candidate than six-man candidate. But I think you just have to like, you've got to do one of the like pull two starters four minutes into the game, bring them back four minutes later kind of thing.

that's my if you net out it 17th offense up from 26th 10th defense up from 15th that's probably what 44 wins that's like a potential 6 7 8 team that's I guess that's not much confusing like that's not a great like grand slam of a season I'm just more like how how is it going to work with these four dudes on the floor can they make decisions quickly enough can they move the ball quickly enough no pun intended your defensive case is interesting because Murray Boyles can really guard. Yeah. That's the one thing with him I totally believe in. He's just six, seven and played center in college and needs to move out to the perimeter. So interesting, Claire, for sure, though. Okay, so we've done four. We've only overlapped on one.

You picked the fifth one. Houston Rockets. Not on my list. Not even. I have my list over here. I have my backup papers over here for teams I think you would pick. Houston's not even in my backup paper. So I'm just letting you take it. Go ahead.

Does it not trouble you that like 11 of the 15 roster spots are for fours and fives? Well, we were going to get to another team like that on my list. But I mean, are you count who's not, are you counting Amen Thompson and Tari Isan and all these tweener guys is four? Finney Smith's a four, Jeff Green's, they're all fours. Best position is a four. Okogee plays best as a four. Tate plays best as a four. Jeff Green, like four or a small ball five.

Like it's other than Holiday and Shepard and Van Vlead who's hurt, like they have 11 guys who are whose best position is either four or five. Okay. I'm going to make the counter argument why I'm not so bothered by that. Okay. Thompson and Eason and probably Smith too. can guard all over the floor. So defensively, I don't pigeonhole them into a position.

And in fact, I think a couple of them, particularly Thompson, are more likely to guard perimeter guys and guard them at a defensive player of the year level than they are to guard fours. I believe in Smith's shooting enough to be a spot-up threat, so I don't really care what position he holds on offense. Durant obviously goes without saying he can do anything. Does it not concern you that Smith can't dribble at all? It's concerning.

As a Jabari Smith Jr. backer and just general fan, I would like to see him get picked a little bit less. I would like to see him attack a little bit more decisively. I watched a lot of film on him over the summer. You see glimpses, right? You see like, okay, can you just do that? Like, just catch, go two dribbles either at the rim or kick it. You see it. Like, I have no illusions that he's going to all of a sudden be running 20 pick and rolls a game.

But just do that. Bottle that, and that's enough for me. they certainly lean big and look I've already said like the Van Vleet thing injury I've heard it over and over again described as a blessing in disguise because they're going to learn about Thompson and Reed Shepard

I get the emotion and impulse behind that I just simply don't buy it at all because this team viewed itself as a championship contender I think they had some championship equity like a little bit at least and now I don't think they have

any. And so when you take that drop, I just don't buy the blessing and disguise stuff. But you're, you are, you're raising some alarm bells here. I like it because you do raise like, what if Reed Shepard's just not ready? You know, like, that's a possibility too, right? Yeah. And I think the way they're set up, like he has to play. Like they, Shepard and Holiday may both have to play the way they're, the way they're set up now. I'm really worried about even with trading for Kevin Durant if there's enough shooting. Like you talk about leaning into Shangoon Adams lineups or playing two bigs with maybe Shangun and Capello, which I mean, I guess is the reason they signed him.

I'm still a little confused by that. But to do that, now you're asking what, Smith is going to play three and Durant's going to play two or it's going to be Yson and Thompson in the back court. Like even with Kevin Duran, I'm really worried about the spacing. They didn't have much last year, and that was with Van Villeet bombing away. There are three most prolific three-point shooters last year were who? Dylan Brooks, Jalen Green, and Fred Van Vleet. They don't have any of them this year.

Yeah, they have Kevin Durant, but they don't have any of the other guys. The spacing stuff, I think, is really troubling. You know, like, Finney Smith is a good player. Like, okay, great, but like, once you had Durant, and Shingoon, your two best positions were four and five. So to go back in and use all your capital on Fittie Smith and Capella after that and re-signing Adams with bird rights, like, I just thought they left themselves really short in the wings and backcourt, even with Van Vleet.

That's how it was going to look. I really love this because it's a great pick. I didn't even think about them because I just think their defense is going to be so good and their effort level is going to be so good and their size and rebounding are going to be so relentlessly annoying to play against that their regular season floor,

even without Fred Van Vleet, is still pretty high. They're over under is 52 and a half. That's high. That's high. Generous. Yeah. But the Van Vleet thing we talked about, Finney Smith may not be ready to start, is not going to be ready to start the season, I don't think, with whatever issue he's going to,

God, I can't remember. Eason's health has been up and down. And so now you're one injury away from all of a sudden you're really thin. I am a little worried they're going to overtax Durant in the first 30 games of the season as they try to sort of, I mean, they're going to try to win as many games as possible and they're low on shot creation. It just sort of naturally lends you to, is Durant going to have to do too much, certainly more than he or the brain trust might have expected him to have to do.

I think Shengoon is awesome. That's another reason why I didn't consider them for this. I think he's a big reason their floor is pretty high. But I think you're raising pretty valid questions about their ceiling. And is it is the residual optimism sort of clouding our collective judgment about the team? I think these are fair questions that I'm, you have changed in five minutes my perception of the team a little bit. A little bit. Okay.

Like I still think they're going to be steady and annoying and win a lot of games and be a top six team. But I think you raise valid concerns. And by the way, it's not hard to fall out of the time. top six in the west. Like they're already out of the top three where I had them penciled in because of Van Blit. And it's not like a steep drop to seven from there. All right. I'm going to pick the next team.

All right. Dallas Mavericks. Yeah. I, they were one of the last ones that I eliminated. This is another weird team that leaned into being too big, right? I mean, Cooper Flag is going to be their shooting guard, I guess. Well, maybe at points, if they play the Washington Flagg Davis Center for some, my guess is they're going to start both Russell and Clay to sort of just try to get shooting

and playmaking onto the floor at the start of games. To try to get toast on the floor? Is that why? Come on. Don't do that. I don't know, man. they're projected right smack in the middle of 500. Like that's their over-under. Yeah. They're a weird team.

Like, no doubt. AD is now going to be a four for at least half his minutes in the regular season, maybe more. I mean, they're designed for him to almost never play the five. They have two centers who they have invested heavily in. Yeah. Plus union, plus league and union favorite Dwight Powell is the third. He's still there. Dwight Powell is like, he's like,

currently current college player Alex Caraban and my childhood college player Chris Chris Cortjiani at NC State where it's like have they been in college for eight years like how are they still there still there yeah does he have a job like is he working like insurance on the side that's what Dwight Powell is on the Mavericks shout out Chris Cortiani who just fire and ice it felt like he just kept playing college basketball like is it how is this possible um and so it it They're just a strange team. They're talking about using AD as a passing hub, which I actually think is smart.

I think he's an underrated passer. I think it's one of the skills that his teams have not tapped into. And that's how they're, if you're going to play big, you're going to have to use sort of every inch of the court. You're going to have to be pretty dynamic on both sides of the court, use both your bigs and dynamic ways at the elbows. I think their size is going to be troubling on both ends of the floor for opponents.

Like it's going to be hard to score on them at the rim. I love flag. couldn't be higher on flag. He's going to have to do a lot of ball handling for them until Kyrie comes back. Yeah, which might not be until next year. I think he's coming back this year. I think he's coming back.

Now, is that January? Is that March? I don't know. And if it's March and they're just out of it, do they just bag it? I'm going to predict he comes back. And he obviously is the difference between this team is confusing and somewhat interesting.

and this team is confusing and like, oh, oh, could they be a little, like, dangerous? There's just something about this mix that I kind of like. I like the size. I like the tenacity. I like that one of their big guys, the Cooper Flag, can handle and play point forward, a decent amount at least. Although I do think their teams are going to switch a lot between Flag and Davis and be like, all right, try to bully this little guy or can you take our big guy off the bounce, Cooper? Let's see it because we're going to play off you.

Let you shoot threes. Yeah. I don't know. I like the depth. Like you're bringing Najee Marshall off the bench, PJ Washington off the bench, Gafford off the bench. You know, I like little Brandon Williams. Like there are guys on this.

I don't know. There's something about them that I like. But I also like, I don't know how the hell this is going to look. You seem like Max Christie is a decent bench player. It's decent. You can play 15 credible minutes as a 3-and-D guy. Yeah, you got Caleb Martin still there too. Caleb Martin?

I just, so they're so bought into the, the fiction that Davis is a four and the thing that breaks that down is he's just not that threatening a shooter and people just aren't worried about him from there. And that's why like if, if Derek Lively is the rim runner or Gafford is the rim runner, like they're just not that worried about Davis on the perimeter, you know? Well, that's what I mean by the hub thing is like they cannot, I agree with you that he's got like at not crunching time, Anthony Davis is a five. It's 2025. We've been saying this since 2016. It's true then. It's true now. You want to spare him in the regular season and see what this like behemoth lineup can do defensively and on the glass. Fine. I get it.

What you cannot do is then relegate Anthony Davis to being like a glorified spot up guy 18 feet from the rim where no one spots up anymore in the NBA. No one makes 80s sit in the corner. Yeah, there you go. They got it. The thing that, the thing that, would make me more optimistic about Dallas as an in-season trade. I mean, they have Gafford on a pretty good deal. If they moved him, moved Washington and got some guards or wings, like true wings, I mean, even Clay, like, you have to put him on fours. So he's only sort of a wing, right?

So if they were able to do some in-season work, you'd feel a little better about them than with this. but this roster is just so top-heavy right now, especially with Kyrie being out on top of it all. I mean, really, this year, next year, the year after, that's the window. That's the window you made, and it's a small window when you did the Luca A-D trade. You admitted it publicly.

It's just like we're all in for now. We're a little less protected in the future than we'd like to be. shouldn't they reset that window that's the other thing I wonder about like okay you got you got gifted this thing that you didn't deserve when they handed flag to you after you traded Luca

okay build the team around flag now don't build it around the end years of AD and Kyrie build the whole thing around flag you get a ton for AD you get a ton for Kyrie once he's healthy like do that I mean

you have to have to have that scenario mapped out on your whiteboard just to have it. Like you've got to know the market for those guys. What I was going to say is that window to me depends on Cooper flag's got to be an all-star player fast for that for you to actually be a contender in the next two to three years. He's got to be an all-star level point forward capable of running the offense, beating switches on both ends, both both sides discrepancies, working with Kyrie in a two-man game, all that. That's plausible. You do pinpoint what I think. People are not talking about this yet.

I have talked about it a few times. I think the Anthony Davis extension eligible thing this summer is one of the more fascinating pivot points that I can remember. A year from July, he becomes eligible for an extension. He's making 58.5 next season. That's locked in. And has a $63 million player option in 27, 28, when he's going to be approaching his mid-30s.

That, any extension there has the potential to be, like a disaster level contract. And yet AD is the kind of guy. He's been a first second team all NBA player, defense player of the year candidate, all of it. I think he's going to have a big season. He's the kind of guy who just kind of walks in

and is like, okay, what's the max? And like, that to me is a rubber meets the road. You've got to be ready to make a real hard decision as a franchise. I don't know what they do. I've not talked to Nico Harrison or anyone there about it. I don't know what they do. I don't know how they handle it. But that is a dicey one.

I agree. I mean, you have the option of just playing out that season, too. Yeah. Because it's a player option season, the one after it, and you can negotiate an extension before he hits free agency or whatever. Like, you have some things you can do there. Man, yeah, committing to that when your future is really about flagging lively, yeah, that's tough.

I love, I love lively, by the way. Love. I know he's had some injury issues. Yeah. Last year felt slightly disappointing in the aggregate after what he did in the playoffs. I mentioned him on my like honorable mention Team USA 2028 podcast with Bill Simmons. That's how I think he's got a chance to be really, really good. Yeah.

And again, if he's really good, then I don't, I don't, not say an all-star good, but just really good and flags all-star good. There is a roadmap where like the rest of the West. breaks right around them that this team can have a shot to get conference finals in the next like 27, 28, whatever. It's just, I would wouldn't bet. I'd bet against it, but who knows. All right, next pick belongs to you. I only have two teams left. You only have two teams left. Take it away. Let's see what I got here. I think I only have one team left actually. Okay. All right. Because we overlapped with Toronto. Okay. Well, you can pick the next team. What are the Miami Heat right now? Not on my list. We are only going to overlap with one. team. Wow. All right. The under dominates.

Just one team. Bring it. Bring it. Miami Heat. I have already said on this podcast, even after the Tyler Hero injury, that I am higher on the heat than consensus, that I think they are closer to being in the group jostling for the sixth seed than consensus, which has them over under 37 and a half, that they're closer to that level than like scrounging around 9, 10 with 13. Toronto and Chicago and all that.

I understand the trepidation. Tyler Hero is indeed injured to start the season. Timetable unclear. Could be a little. Could be a little more than a little. Terry Rozier exists, not doing anything. Some of the young guys had step, took steps back last year, disappointingly. And the offense has been, long ago hit the wall of just this doesn't work anymore.

So despite all that, I am optimistic. You, I'm guessing, are less. optimistic. Yeah, I mean, they have good players. I just don't think they have any elite level players. You know, Harrow and Bam.

Like, can we get Bam a shot that isn't a 17 foot pull-up? Is that possible? Yeah, it's possible. I mean, he's Bam's 6-8 playing center.

Like, it's, he's, you would like him to overpower people. I get it. All right, continue. Continue your heat pessimism. Spoh is listening. Spoh and Riley are listening, all right? I mean, belief in Spow and that they can pull a two-way guy out of their ass like they always do is probably the biggest reason to be optimistic about Miami. But when I look at the actual roster, the Pal Trade was a nice piece of business,

turning Duncan Robinson into Fontechio was a nice piece of cap business, if nothing else. but like Hockes turned into a pumpkin last year. The Rozier trade, total disaster, right? They are right up against attacks, right up, you know, they have assets going out already. It's tough for them to make trades with future stuff. They still could do stuff theoretically with like picks in 30 and 32, I guess, but it's just nobody wants to go that far out. Pat Riley, Brad Riley might. Pat Riley, like 2032.

man, I don't care. No, I mean, on the other end, like, if you're putting those picks in play for, like, hopefully a special player and not Terry Rozier. So, like, I don't know. Extension coming up with Hero, like, do you really want to pay him $50 million? Like, he's already signed for next year. No, you don't. No, no.

The answer is no, you don't. And I'd be, like, blown away if they do. Yeah. 50, no, no, no. I mean, like, was Davion Mitchell last year? Was the shooting a fluke? Or does that have some chance of continuing? I mean, is he a real starting point card anyway?

Or is he, like, I think they like the fact that he's, you know, a bulldog on defense and stuff. But then when you really get into it, is he a starting point guard? You know, Wiggins is still there. Yeah. Like, kind of his destiny to be on a team that's, like, in the play in. Right? I don't know. What else we got here?

Kellelewheres sort of interesting. Like maybe they get something from Yakishotas. Like, I think people are too low. I like, I like Yovich. I think he has a chance to be like a starting player. I love the,

I love the Ovich extension. That happened after, I haven't talked about that yet. I thought that was a great deal for both sides. It's exactly, I, Fred Katz and I did our extension predictions podcast last week. We both predicted yes on Yovitch right at this level,

right at around the mid level. I think it's, a fair i think he's going to outperform or perform up to that number for sure probably starting this year i think they should start him next to bam and bring wear off the bench because i think priority number one has to be having a functional NBA offense and that's the easiest sort of route to getting yourself there they have been doing that so far in the preseason um and i just think for yovitch like it's one of those things i talked about this where yeah you know you could do the hardline thing of more teams are going to have cap room in theory at least.

Well, definitely more than just Brooklyn. He could blow up this year. He might be leaving money on the table. And he's like, that's $60 million. It's a lot of money. I think it's a great deal for both sides. Look, I think people are too low on where. I think where's got a chance to be pretty good.

Defensively, this team should be strong. The Powell Hero Together minutes are you're going to have to cover for those guys. I think they can. They're going to compete. Why should this team be strong defensively? Well, BAM, Wiggins, Mitchell, good coaching. I think they're just going to play really, really hard. And, you know, they were good defensively last year.

I think there were, like, ninth in a league defensively, I think. I just believe in the infrastructure a little bit more than consensus. If heroes out a long time, it could be different. I think Fontechio is a useful NBA player. Pella Larson's a useful NBA player. I just think they're going to finagle. I think they're going to finagle. But I get your confusion.

And the number one source of confusion is like, why does this team's offense suck every year? And can it not suck? Can they find a way for it not to suck? And I said last week, I got little birdies whispering to me that their offense is going to look stylistically different this year. They're trying some dramatic stuff. So we'll see.

All right. I got two more teams left. Do you got any other thoughts on the heat? No, let's move on. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone. But if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food or, hey, takeouts on me. And if you really love them, pick Panda Express for delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine, whether it's game night or date night.

Nothing says, I love you like orange chicken, honey walnut trim, Kung Tao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Have you eaten yet? Order now, or is it a Panda Express near you? This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball. basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. Service Now's AI specialists tackle that work, request

handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do. For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want and then talking about it into a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Indiana Pacers. Yeah. Residual sheen. Residual sheen from the finals run. 37 and a half over under way too high a lot of people won't write them off because you know they just made the finals see acum and nemhart ready for larger roles in the wake of haliburton and miles turner not being on the team anymore Rick Carlisle Rick is a wizard yeah all of fame coach um they look like a team

that's going to compete at least until the wheels fall off like not think about gap year tanking all that stuff. Even, even like some, I was going to say some of the numbers, like if you look at Siakum on Halliburton and Turner off in the regular season, that was solid. But in the playoffs, it completely collapsed. And overall, without Halliburton, they were dead in the water. I guess, I guess my confusion is, what do the optimists see as a roadmap to them being competitive?

And I think it's all the stuff we talked about already. plus defense, full court press. We've removed our weakest defender in Halliburton from the rotation entirely. And so we're going to compensate for the dip in offense by just being halacious and long and frenzied on defense. I just don't see it. I think the double blow of Turner and Halliburton is just, I think people are underestimating it.

I don't know that Nemhart is really ready to take on the kind of two-way load he's going to have to take on. I don't know that Isaiah Jackson is ready. I'm generally optimistic about him, but is he going to be the starting center right away? Yeah, $8 million coming off in Achilles. What was that? I thought that was fine. I get why they did it at least.

I understood the confusion too. But he's not a spacer. He's flirted with like trying to be a corner three shooter. He's not a spacer. So what does that do to like the Seacum Nemhart two-man game? They actually played, believe it or not, faster with Halliburton on the bench last year. They played fast overall regardless, but their transition efficiency plummeted. without Halliburton to run the show.

I just don't. Some people seem to see it with this team. Like, yeah, 42 and 40, Pacer's super competitive, 43 and 39. I don't see it at all. I think they're going to be way worse than that. And I guess my confusion is like, what do people see?

So I'm with you there. I think the thing people aren't talking enough about is the lack of shooting without Halliburton and Turner. Nemhard, what he shoot like 29 last year and then the playoffs I think he shot 94% yeah yeah exactly so people forget about that McConnell never shoots threes of course

Matharin really good downhill score but from long range has kind of been average at best and then they have no spacing from the center position if it's Jackson or Bradley or Wiseman Jay Huff is the one guy who could give him some of that Wahoo Wah but you like is he guys should be playing We're not doing that. We're not doing Wahua. Nope. We're not doing it. Come on. You got Rick Carlisle. You got Jenny Busack. Let's go. There's a lot of UVA. You're right. There's a lot. I didn't have estimated the amount of UVA that was going to be part of this. I think they're going to be, you know, playing a lot of minutes with Oby. Topping is a small ball five. What does that do to their defense? Those numbers were good last year. Seacom Topping together were good. But again, like, how much of that is soft second units, though. How much of it is the same thing with like, you talk about how they played fast without Halliburton. But those were all. all McConnell minutes, right?

Those weren't Nemhard at the one. And so how do you maintain that pace without the guy who really gave you that pace in Halliburton when it's when it's Nemhard, Mathurin, Nessmith is your three perimeter guys? Yeah, the whole identity of the team flowed from one player. And the fact that you paired that one player with a pretty good to sometimes great until the finals shooting center and Miles Turner. That whole conception is obliterated on arrival this year. It's gone.

And I think rebuilding a new identity, like they have some ingredients they can pluck from from their finals run, but I think doing that is really hard. Like for instance, one of the reasons their offense was so good is they'd never turned the ball over, which is a Rick Carlisle team thing. But it's also been like a Luca thing in Dallas and a Halliburton thing in Indiana. is that sustainable? Their rim defense was very good last year when Miles Turner was on the floor.

Is that sustainable with what they have left? I just don't, I am interested in sort of how they play. Like, how does this actually look? If you're starting Nemhart, Mathurin, Niesmith, Seacom, Jackson, how do you map a half-court offense out of that? One note on Mathron, by the way, 41% catch-and-shoot threes, 28% pull-up threes. That's interesting to me.

Like, can he recalibrate his game? or is the absence of Halliburton going to push him more towards sort of the more off the dribble, more score first parts of his game? I don't see it. Okay, can we do one more team unless you have further thoughts on the Pacers? No, rock and roll. This team, my last team. They're not going to be good.

Okay, I have no confusion about that. Okay. They're over under is 31 and a half, maybe 32 and a half as of today. So not good. I don't do they're going to be good. Don't have a bright future. Don't have really a lot of future period. This is more like the version of what happened here?

Who's on this team? And how is this actually going to look on the floor? And that is the hard playing, start a new culture, 2025, 2025, 26 Phoenix Suns. The aftermath of the Beal Durant Booker super team that never was their second, third

and fifth most minutes players from last year are gone and Durant Beal and Ty's Jones who was third in minutes I think there's a million new guys you were talking earlier about the Rockets having a lot of fours this team has

by my count nine players who are either three and a half's fours or fives in Florida Lemming, Royce O'Neill, Hayes Davis, Dunn, Iigodoro, Richards, Williams, Malawatch, Mark Williams. I already said Mark Williams. Maybe somebody else, I'm forgetting.

And everyone else is a two. And, yeah, like, unless Colin Gillespie is playing a ton of minutes, which probably isn't a great sign. I like Colin Gillespie. You have some moments for them. I don't know. Like, they don't really have a point guard. When Devin Booker's on the bench, the shot creation, like, terrifies me.

level of like, okay, Jalen Green. Yeah. Do it. Yeah. Like, what, what is this team? Like, how, what's happening here? Dylan Brooks is still here. He's also like the best trade candidate on the team and they should probably trade him to a contender who wants to give you real stuff for him at some point.

I mean, I'm assuming there's, the best trade candidate on the team is Devin Booker. But that's the move that they won't that, well, after this extension, maybe not. I mean, but that the. move they should have made is like you got you got to go all the way and trade booker and get your picks back and i don't agree i don't agree with that quite yet especially i thought they did pretty well in the durant trade um yes if you can get your picks back it gets interesting right because then you control your destiny a little bit although we saw a brooklyn not to fail safe you think it is in the new lottery rules but i understand them saying this dude is 28 29 years old he's a 10

poll of our community. We wanted to be a one-team guy. The extension, though, $70 million player option in 2930 is not great. I'm assuming they're going to start. My guess would be Booker, Green, Brooks. I'm penciling in Ryan Dunn at the four. Can we talk about the Brooks and Dunn with wing stopper combo? Stopper maybe. I could see them going grace and hours. I could see them going Grayson Allen over Dunn and sliding Brooks to the four, but I'm going to put Dunn and Mark Williams at the five. The bench then becomes Grayson Allen, Royce O'Neill, Fleming, Egadoaro, Hayes Davis, Richards, Malawatch. I think they want to play Iigado some at the five, even though they have a lot of centers. They want to see how that looks. Goodwin, Jordan Goodwin, I think is good, not a point

card, but I just, it's just a weird mix of players, and I have no idea how it's going to look on the floor. Yeah, like the on ball, who's playing on the ball at any given time, especially when Booker is out of the game, is going to be a little wacky. You know, maybe, maybe Jared Butler works in there, Gillespie, like you said. I've heard good things about Grayson Allen coming out of there from camp or whatever, but like he's another shooting guard. Like, where do they even slot him in? You know, Hayes, Davis, and Fleminger just catching shoot sky. Oh, so we Godara was interesting because he can be a secondary handle guy. Like he can dribble a little bit and make passes from the high post and stuff.

So using him as a backup five because Malawatch, I think, is a project. I thought he was a little bit of a reach at 10, actually. So, yeah, I could see I Godaro taking those backup five minutes. But, yeah, like... Well, that means Richards is minimized, which fine. Like, I don't really... It's neither here nor there to me. And it means Malawatch maybe doesn't play very much,

which again, like, fine, he's a project. I'd like to see the 10th pick and the draft play some. I just don't, I mean, I have been a jail and green optimist. Last year was not good. And the decision making just hasn't progressed either as a passer or as like an in-the-paint. Like, I'm just going to fly at the rim and hope that this wild layup goes in. Yeah, for somebody that athletic, like the finishing is weirdly not good. I agree with what you're saying on Booker and like,

is there a moment in the next two or three years where he just says, look, I wanted to be Kobe on Phoenix. I wanted to be a one-team guy. I wanted to be Dirk in Dallas. I just don't have a roadmap here. Yeah. To me, that's plausible, but I don't think he wants to do that. Everything I've heard about Devin and from people around Devin

is he really wants to make it work in Phoenix. I like Mark Williams. Like, I like Mark Williams. the injuries obviously make me nervous as there was a trade rescinded in all of that the defense has like I think offensively he's going to be a really good rim running offensive one of the best

offensive rebunners in the league has good hands it's make or break on defense for me like I like I guess not only is it a confusing team I know they added Brooks done is fine I just don't know how this is a they were 27th in defense last year a top 20 defense to me seems

like a reach. Yeah, you're probably counting on scheme to do a lot of work and just being kind of big across the back court with Green Booker Brooks. And I like Jordan Ott. I think he's going to do a good job. I think he's going to bring a lot of that Cleveland, Kenny Atkinson, funky movement to the offense. It's just, I would be really depressed if I were a Phoenix Suns fan, just looking at this team. It's got a bunch of guys. Like, I know all these guys. I know him. I know Royce O'Neill real well, noam like a gnome as a player. I just don't know how any of it fits together. And maybe that's okay.

This year is not supposed to be like a contention year. But getting from here to there seems very murky to me. So that rounds out my list. I had Boston, Indiana, Phoenix, Dallas, and Toronto. Only overlapped on one. That means we covered a third of the league, John Hollinger. Almost. Yeah.

Yeah. Nine teams, right? Right, nine out of 30. How's your outlook on the Brewers? They're up 1-0, right? Yeah, yeah. I scored nine runs in the first two innings on the Cubs, so very exciting. Milwaukee's thing is they always run out of hitting in the playoffs.

And our second best pitcher, Brandon Woodruff, is injured and might not be back, so a little worried about that. But I'd be doing, like, bullpen games for most of the playoffs, which is a little weird. I just watched a whole season of bullpen games, basically, John, with the New York Metropolitan's. Basically, that was the whole year. Fair enough. But I'm excited. I'm optimistic. I got my fingers crossed.

When will you make a finals prediction on the athletic? Oh, that's going to be coming in the next. I'm trying to remember when they're going to run that. I think it's going to be, it's definitely within the next two weeks because the season starts the 21st. So somewhere in there, yes, my fearless predictions come will run and we'll have my finals pick. Burris versus Mariners. I haven't made a finals pick yet. Really?

No, in my head I don't. I have it down to two teams in each conference. And I still don't know which ones of the two that I'm picking. And not surprisingly, it's Oklahoma City and Denver and the West and New York and Cleveland in the east. So not Toronto? Not Toronto. This is not the year for the Raptors to make the finals. maybe the finals of the play in.

I do think like there's always a team or two that either in the playoffs announces themselves as a real threat or in the regular season announces themselves as a real threat. Someone is going to bust out and be like, oh yeah, like maybe it's Orlando. Maybe it's Atlanta. Maybe I, but I'm down to those four teams. All right, John, I wish the Brewers good luck. Is Brewers Cubs like a big, is there a hate? Is there vitriol? Is it like Cubs Cardinals because of the proximity? Or is it not enough history for that? There's not enough history because the Brewers are in the American League for so long.

So it's starting to bubble up a little more. But it's just like Cubs and Cardinals are just like generations of growing up hating each other. So it's just different. Well, good luck to the Brewers. Baseball is great. John Hollinger, I sincerely mean it the best to ever do it. Read him at the athletic. Listen to him on Hollinger and Duncan. He's all over the place. Fearless predictions coming out. He's got a bunch of off-season columns to catch up on if you haven't done that yet. Thank you for your time, buddy. Thanks for having me. All right, that's it. For today's Zach Lowe's show, thank you to John Hollinger,

thank you to Jesse, Victoria, and Mike on production. We'll be back later this week with a second episode. Who knows what will have in between now and then. Maybe it'll be some of their extensions. We'll get a better idea of what some of these preseason rotations look like. Thanks to you guys for listening or watching the Zach Lowe show. See you later this week. Must be 21 or over in President-Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

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