The Zach Lowe Show - The Fatal Flaws of the Eastern Conference Contenders! Plus, Awards and TV Talk!

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

Zach is joined by Kirk Goldsberry to run through the Eastern Conference and share the fatal flaw of each contender. Then, they reveal which team they think is most dangerous to the Knicks and share some awards picks. Finally, Joanna Robinson comes on to discuss The New York Times' list of the top 100 TV shows of the 21st century. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (1:44) Kirk Goldsberry joins the show! (5:25) Which team is most dangerous to the Knicks? (17:48) How much will the Knicks miss Mitchell Robinson? (20:59) Cleveland still has a wing depth issue (33:09) The Pacers are still a contender (50:18) Who will be Rookie of the Year? (53:10) If not Wemby, who can win Defensive Player of the Year? (1:09:57) NYT's top 100 TV shows of the 21st century with Joanna Robinson (1:17:38) Underrated shows (1:31:17) Shows you were surprised didn’t make the list (1:33:49) Overrated shows Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and Joanna Robinson Producers: Jonathan Frias, Billy Gil, and Mike Wargon Social: Keith Fujimoto and Michael Szokoli The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On the Zach Lowe show, it's Jalen Duren Day. Not much more to talk about. With that, we will see what Jail and Duren does with the qualifying offer by midnight, tonight, Eastern time. Kirk Goldsbury is here, and we're talking about our trust issues with everyone in the Eastern Conference other than the Knicks. And a related poll question that I threw around to tons of people around the league that I'm now forcing Kirk and myself to answer, which is this. If you had to pick a team other than the Knicks and for the people who worked in the league, and work at teams, other than your own team, to make the NBA finals out of the East, to win three playoff series, who would you pick?

The responses, as you might expect, were all over the place. Kirk and I go through the concerns of all of these teams, and we hit them all, because the responses were all over the place. Tons of teams got brought up. And then we forced ourselves to make our pick to that very question, interesting stuff there. And then we pick defensive player of the year. If Wembe does not make the 65 game threshold and rookie of the, the year is I continue to round out my awards predictions for the year. And then Joanna Robinson is

here. What a delight. And she's here in large part for me to yell and scream about the New York Times top 100 list and how they messed it up in a million different ways, but also to name her favorite shows, to name shows that we want to rewatch, to name underrated and overrated shows on the list, and to recommend me some shows that I maybe have missed out on. I've got some gripes and Joanna helps me get my gripes into the world. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Look who it is.

Kirk Goldsbury, you have never looked more professorial. The dark blazer, does it have elbow patches? No elbow patches? Can't afford those. Can't afford us. The glasses and the, I mean, the mustache, it almost looks fake. It's so good. I mean, it's thick.

It's symmetrical. There's no gaps in it. It's got a little texture I can see. I mean, you're really, you're really purely November a month early. Yeah, preemptive strike against November. But yeah, it's the result of, I told my students, if Texas beat Ohio State, I'd grow a mustache and wouldn't shave a jack, until the Longhorns lost a football game. And at 4 and O, after a big win at Tennessee, I still have a mustache. Look at that.

Happy Jalen Duren Day to everyone who celebrates. Today is the deadline at 11.59 p.m., so about 14 hours from right now for him to sign his qualified. offering off for before the pistons can pull it or vaporize it. It's 10 a.m. Eastern. I have heard no indications that the pistons intend to strike any agreement to extend this October 1st deadline. That could, of course, change. This is jail endurance real leverage, this threat that expires potentially in 14 hours. If there is no deal in the next 14 hours, if he decides to not sign this allegedly, and from what I've heard, this is accurate, five-year, $200 million contract, then the negotiations can continue without the threat of him taking the qualifying

offer. And that is an interesting universe to live in. Not a lot of guys have done that holding out into training camp potentially. We shall see not much more to say about this that's already been said. The day is here. And we shall see what happens, Kurt Goldsbury. Yeah. And I think you and I agree on what should happen. And if we were representing Jalen Duren, I think we would reach the point where we just just take the money. It's not a small amount of money for a 22-year-old basketball player that struggled mightily in the playoffs. It might not be the max he can make. But I think it's a heck of a deal for a young center in an NBA that's currently obsessed with guards and perimeter skill.

Let's stay in the east because, you know, my big questions for the Western Conference, like my big holistic questions for the Western Conference have been, A, if anyone were to unseed one of the incumbent top six West team from last year, Who would it be? Rob Mahoney and I debated that last week. And the other one is if we get to April and there is a team that we say, wow, okay, we've gotten all the way here. This team actually has maybe even a little more than a puncher's chance to push the spurs

and the thunder in the playoff series. Who would that team be? I've answered that question with Rob Mahoney or tried to. His answer was Minnesota. My answer was actually maybe Houston. Do you have an answer to that question before we pivot east? I think I would take Houston. I think with Fred Van Fleet and Kevin and all their pieces, that's the best answer if they're healthy. Minnesota, I'm just not a believer in A, losing Nasreed, which has been underreported and what that's going to do, the vibes there.

And B, I'm not a believer in the lamello ball play. So I would take Houston, maybe a very healthy Denver if the injury gods shine brightly down on Colorado this season. The other options, of course, would be the Lakers. And that really kind of exhausts the options, honestly. I know. I think the East is deeper than the West, which is something you and I haven't said on many of these podcasts over the years. So here's my holistic question for the East. And it is a question that I put out as a poll question yesterday to maybe 30 executives and coaches around the Eastern Conference. Just that wasn't a huge poll.

It's not 100. But it's not five. I just was like, let me see what these people think. And I pulled you on the same question. The question is this. If you had to pick an Eastern Conference team to make the NBA finals, not win it, just make the finals, win three playoff series. That's what it takes to make the finals. And you were barred from picking the Knicks.

And for the people that I sent the poll to, you were barred from picking your own team. Who would you pick to make the finals? Kirk, I pose the question to you. You don't have your own team so you can pick anybody but the Knicks. Who would you pick to make the finals? And then I will share the very rudimentary results from my league poll. I think the safe picks are Philly and Boston. I think the intriguing pick is Indiana.

I think other people are going to land on Atlanta, Detroit, and Cleveland. But Zach Lowe, for the interest, I think, I smell it. I smell it. I smell it coming. I smell it coming. I know it's coming. Let's go. You know what I want to say. I'm not going to say. I'm going to say the Philadelphia 76ers. The last eight years, LeBron James has competed in the Eastern Conference. He has went to the NBA finals. This is one of the deepest teams we've ever seen. They beat the Celtics in the playoffs last year. And now they have Jalen Brown and LeBron James. So I think that's a safe pick. I'm eager to talk this through. with you because I wanted to say Indiana.

But what say you, Zach? Lo. All right. First of all, I'm going to call you out right now on your LeBron H. Trade Eastern Conference trips to the finals. He hasn't been in the Eastern Conference since 2018. So this is a version of the, well, the last time Kauai was in Toronto, he stayed healthy the entire year. So therefore, the transitive property says he'll stay healthy. I'm like, that was seven years ago and zero long playoff runs ago for Kauai Leonard.

So I'm dismissing your fake stat is out of the podcast. So with with this issue, I'm like Fox Mulder. I trust no one. I trust no one in this entire group of teams to win three playoff series. I'm, I'm in agony because I feel awful. Every time I start to pick one of these teams, like that's my answer to the question. I feel nauseous like I'm going to vomit. out the window of a car, I have major trust issues.

And so, but I will share with you the results of my informal poll. And again, teams where people were not allowed to vote for their own teams. There was one team that was the overwhelming winner of the poll. Like I would say, I didn't track the responses. I'm not the freaking polls. I'm not Gallup. I would say a majority of respondents, a majority, like a slight majority, but a flat out majority picked this team as the answer to.

the question, who would you guess it would be? Well, if it's not the Philadelphia 76ers, I think you would take Joe Missoula and the Boston Celtics. It was Boston. And I was actually shocked at how at the level of optimism for Boston as a finals team. And I think when I when I followed up and interrogated my question, my, my respondents, a lot of it was simply based on the fact that they felt safest about Boston alongside the Knicks being a top three seed in the conference when the regular season is over.

In other words, like part of the bet on a team to make the finals in this conceit I'm constructing is like, I hope they don't have to come through the play in. I hope they don't have to be on the road in every single playoff series. And everyone's seen some downside scenarios where like, yeah, Philly could be. I saw Wendy yesterday, took a lot of shit for saying he doesn't think Philly is a guaranteed top six team. I think to people who are giving Wendy shit for for that or either A, crazy Sixers fans, God bless them. I love Philly fans. And B, just haven't sat down and looked at how deep the Eastern Conference is. There's no universe in which Philadelphia relying on a center who plays half of every season at best and a 41 year old guy who is the

best passer on the team by a country mile to sort of hold it all together as the glue. There's no universe in which they're guaranteed a top six seat in the Eastern Conference. I actually think they will be one of the top six teams. But that's not a crazy. crazy take by Wendy. So I think a lot of the Boston optimism was like, look, in a sea of unknowns, I know this is a 50 win team that's going to be a top three seed. So I'll start there. I just don't, you know, and I think a lot of it was also Derek White will have a bounce

back shooting year with less of a playmaking load on him. Is he going to have less of a playmaking load on him? It's not like Paul George is like a playmaker playmaker now. But Tatum is back. Tatum optimism year two. Peyton Pritchard, like another level breakout potential. Mitchell Robinson adding another ingredient as a rim running offensive rebounding menace to society at center. All the young guys, Hugo, Shireman, Walsh, et cetera, getting better.

And just like Missoula Ball works in the regular season. I don't, I'm less optimistic about them as a playoff finals team, but I just could be, I could be, blinded by the downgrade and sort of ISO scoring, mid-range scoring from Jalen Brown to Paul George. Right. And just like, why am I trusting that Paul George is going to be healthy for the entire season in three playoff rounds? Am I really going to trust that?

Am I that confident Mitchell Robinson is going to stay healthy for the entire season in three playoff rounds? And the other stuff is like, it's a lot to ask of those young guys. But Boston was the overwhelming winner. Would you like to hear of other results? Yeah, of course. I love this poll, by the way. Or do you have more Boston thoughts you want to get off?

Well, I think, you know, to defend our friends in Philadelphia with the injury stuffed in beat, I think that's fair. But you know who else hasn't finished the last two playoffs in healthy shape is Jason Tatum. And I hate to be that guy, but obviously Mitchell Robinson has injury concerns. Obviously, Paul George has age and injury concerns. But I think at this point, it's also fair to levy those on Jason Tatum. I also think the Celtics are a wins machine. Missoula ball is going to work. They're going to get to that top three seat.

I share that. But I think it is unfortunately true. The injury concerns that we're going to put on LeBron James and Joelle and Bede can equally be placed on the Boston Celtics at this point. A couple other variables before we go on to the rest of the poll. A lot of people brought up the ability to make an in-season trade as a key factor here. And Boston has picked up a decent amount of trade assets now from the Jalen Brown trade.

A lot of these teams, actually most of them are hard capped at the first apron because of offseason stuff they did, which makes making trades difficult. Boston has the most breathing room by far among these teams are like 10 million under the first apron. And so that gives them flexibility. But the other thing you have to look at is like, all right, what's the matching salary? And Boston has Hauser's $11 million contract, Mitchell Robinson's 15 million. million dollar contract. And after that, it's like huge contracts and small contracts. So it's not like,

you got to have the midsize salaries to really do that. Okay, the rest of the poll, I would say loosely behind Boston, there was like a three way tie. I would, give or take, give or take. Again, I'm not the Gallup organization. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not an exit. I'm not doing an exit polling, you know, I'm not doing any of that. And the three teams. that came up the next most often were Philadelphia. All the skepticism is there, obviously, about what we talked about. And then a little, then somewhat surprising maybe Toronto. Wow.

And there was more Miami optimism than I expected. There was a healthy respect for like, hey, look, I know not a lot of pull-up, jump shooting there, like playmaking in the perimeter positions. How is that going to work? But those two big guys and the playmaking and rim attacking that Yonis brings to the table, plus their defensive infrastructure, plus their coach. And Rick Carlisle was the other coach that came up a lot when I asked about playoff coaching. But Spoh, like there was a healthy amount of respect there for those teams. And I will say, Indiana came next as like just some stray Indiana.

Like, hey, remember they were in the finals not long ago? Not one person. not one picked Cleveland or Detroit. I thought that was notable as well. That's notable for sure. And no Atlanta, who I think has a case to be considered here, if we're going to list all those teams we just listed.

Remember, Atlanta finished last season about as hot as anybody in the NBA. They beat the Knicks twice in the playoffs. They're getting better. They added a rookie point guard. And I think Jaylon Johnson and that core, you can argue, is getting better. Quinn Snyder having this full offseason to really prepare for.

I wouldn't put them as my pick here, but I think that's like an under the radar one for consideration. Indiana, let's just, and you and I talked about this deep in the summer desert of content, but like 16 months ago, they were in game seven of the finals, you know, 17 months ago they were beating the Knicks in, in the NBA playoffs. And I know it's a different team. And I know there's valid concerns about the health of their best player. I know they have a new front court star. But man, I feel like it's. It's a little disrespectful that they're not even closer to the top here, considering what we just saw from them not too long ago, Zach. So, you know, I think Indiana, I don't want to spoil anybody's over unders, but like I have them slotted in at three or four this season in the Eastern Conference.

I think Indiana's track record is better playoff team than regular season team. And I think there's that people are doubling. down on that in terms of regular season win totals with with haliburton coming back from the Achilles and like is it going to take him 20 or 30 games to look like Tyrese Halliburton, the straw that stirs the entire drink in Indiana. But I I'm optimistic about the Pacers. I'm optimistic about the Zubots fit. I think they're starting five is rock solid. We're going to go through each team and talk about like concerns. So I don't want to spoil that part. And they also like for a team that's made two major draft pick out.

up-the-door trades in the last four to five years with Siakum and Zubots, they have a lot of trade assets. Like they only have one more. The Seacom deal is over for them. And they have that 29 pick that was supposed to go to the clippers and now just goes into outer space. And other than that, like, they're free and clear to trade all their picks and all their swaps.

And they have a bunch of mid-sized salaries. They're hard capped at the first apron, but they have like a two and a half million dollar cushion. So I think your optimism is on point there. should we go team by team and just go and I will make my pick at the end but I you might have to talk me through it I like need counseling when I start thinking about like showing faith in either it's like it's I'm like Indiana Jones in in the holy grail like just I have to walk over the bridge that I can't see like that's how I feel like picking one of these teams to make the finals shout out Indiana Jones by the way what a delightful first three movies I've not seen are there two more or or are there four or five. I think there's four. I'm no expert, but I think they came back with a, well, there's definitely crystal skull, which I did not see. The River Phoenix one is three or four. I forget. I think that's three, right? I don't even know. Sean Connery is three. I don't know

where River Phoenix is involved. But anyway, okay, let's go, let's go team by team and express your concerns. Let's just start with New York. We're grandfathering them in. If you, if I had to pick, if I had to tear it out of just like regular season, faith level in the regular season to be in the top six. We're setting aside the playoffs. Like my first tier and then I would be New York, Boston, and Cleveland. I actually think despite all the concerns about Cleveland, which are fair, I think their talent level is so strong that regular season, I am not worried about them like having a downside

of like, oh, they're seventh in the. East. Then I have a gap and we'll talk about that gap, the next tier of teams. What is your concern, if you had to pick a concern for the Knicks, what would it be? Yeah, I would say it's not a typical sort of Goldsbury analytical thing. It's the fact that no team has won the NBA title twice in a row this decade. Nobody's gotten out of the East in consecutive years for a while. And I think the loss of Mitchell Robinson and the fatigue factor is there. Because I love this. core group. I love it, Zach. And I think one of the reasons you gave me this homework assignment for this podcast is there is New York in a basketball sense, and then there's a bunch of other

teams that have a fatal flaw. I can't point to the departure of Mitchell Robinson and say, oh my God, that's it. This is a core where I think OGN and Obie really stepped up. Josh Hart really stepped up. Obviously, Jalen Brunson demonstrated he is the most clutch player in the NBA right now. So I don't have many concerns there, especially compared to what you're going to have me do with these other teams in the Eastern Conference right now. I'm a little bit more concerned about the downgrade for Mitchell Robinson to Andre Drummond. Yeah, that's fair. Drummond is a great offensive rebounder. Mitchell Robinson is like an extraterrestrial offensive rebounder.

Like he was an offense all by himself when he was on the floor. and their offensive rebounding dipped to like below average levels when he was off the floor. Drummond, Drummond will get you to above average, but he doesn't get you to extraterrestrial. And defensively, the rim protection numbers are not even comparable. So I'm a little bit worried about that, but it's just backup center. And they still maybe, maybe they address it in some way throughout the season. Boston, I think we kind of hit on our concerns, right? I don't have much to add to what we already said.

Yeah, I think their front court is pretty weak. That's the only thing I would say. and I know they got Mitchell Robinson, but compared to some of these other contenders, compared to some of the best teams in the Western Conference, I think it's fair to say Boston's front court is not the same as it was when it was Horford and Porzingis and the backups there.

Yeah, they don't. I mean, Garza is the shooting element at the five and he's a clear third string flag. Kada being slotted back into a backup role, I think is healthy for them. And Robinson just health concerns, whatever, he guards Embed as well as anybody. in the world. And that's an important little thing in case they match up again, because we saw

what M.B. did to them in the five seconds that he was healthy in the postseason. He completely decimated the something. That's fair. Yeah. Okay, let's go to the next team in my regular season success only tier. And that's Cleveland. If you had a nitpick of concern or concerns about Cleveland in my Fox Mulder universe where I trust no one. I don't trust the Cavs. What is your concern? Yeah, it's still the professor of the dark arts category. And that, I mean, the wing depth in Cleveland has been my red flag with this team since like 2003. And you could say Peyton Watson is going to solve that. I need to see that, Zach, but in a league where wing depth and wing performance is very important,

I still think that's the glaring weakness. And I say that because I love their front court, they were banged up last year, and their back court deserves all the respect it gets with two all stars, perennial all stars. So can their defense on, on the wings survive? Can their three and D off ball play, you know, match these other teams? So I think I'm waiting to see if they can get, you know, something out of Peyton Watson that is superior to the wing play they've gotten over the last few years.

I heard you talking about Jalen Tyson. Now that's one of the more interesting players here. My X factor, my number one X under the radar X factor of the year, Jalen Tyson. And who saw this coming from Jalen last year? incredible breakout and gives this team more depth at that position group than I think anybody was expecting. So between Jalen Tyson and Peyton Watson, I think they have a good potential sort of answer to that question. But it's at this point in the summer or the fall, it's still potential to me, Zach. I flat out don't trust the Cavs as a playoff team.

And I realized they made the conference finals last year, not the most inspiring run to the conference finals. I have a ton of respect for their just sheer talent level of Mitchell, Harden, Mobley, Allen, and then, you know, after that, we can talk about it. They just always seem to be uncertain about what their best combination of players is, what their best lineups are, how much to lean in the big direction, how much to lean in the small direction, whatever. So there's that. I thought their offense, partly because they faced elite defenses across the board in the playoffs just got so stinky and boggy and just funky and just too much dribbling too much iso not enough passing and especially when you throw in the spacing issues that the mobile

Allen pairing brings i just i just don't have a ton of faith in their ability to get like efficient buckets all the time against great defenses they could prove that wrong for sure depth i mean i look i love a great craig proctor craig proctor craig porter kre porter Craig Porter Jr. Camio. I was Proctor, Tyrese Proctor, I thought shows some flashes. Mario Hoizonia, I de Mohervatska is back in the league. We'll see.

I trust like two guys off their bench right now. Sam Meryl and Jalen Tyson. That's a concern. And I, you know, I'm not going to be breaking any news here, Kirk. I don't want to alarm people. But there's a player on this team that I really just don't trust at all in game six or game seven of a high stakes playoff series. And so I don't trust the calves.

I just don't trust them. I'm sorry. I'm not picking them to mid to finals. As if you needed to hear me echo that second thought you made about James Hardin. But yeah, perfectly said. I didn't name names, Kirk. You named names. I didn't name names.

Just in case anybody's driving and got distracted, we were talking about James Hardin's inability to win big playoff games there, folks. What's James Hardin's middle name? People only do the middle name schick when they're really talking them up. Like Perk would be like, LeBron, Ramon, James, or whatever. It is. We should do it for, we should do it for guys what we're talking them down to. We should have a middle name used to full, like parents. Kevin Wayne Durant.

James Edward Hardin, Jr. It's time for you to finally step up in a big game and the playoff. He has stepped up here and there in the playoffs. What I'm talking about like an elimination game in a late round series. Okay. My next tier of like faith level to avoid the top six, apologies to Atlanta does not include them. I think you're higher on the Hawks than I am, includes six teams.

Detroit, Philadelphia, Toronto, Miami, Indiana, and Orlando is in this tier for me. And you can throw Atlanta if you want. Okay, let's just go one by one Fox Mulder concerns fatal flaws. Detroit Pistons, Kirk Goldsbury, what are you concerned about? The Jalen, excuse me, folks, the Jalen Dern vibes. I would say is my number one concern. My number two concern is the loss of Tobias Harris for an offense that was already pretty one dimensional.

And you can try to talk me into anything they did this summer to correct that fatal flaw from last year. I don't buy it. So between the cultural sort of sketchiness of this Durin situation and the loss of Tobias, I don't think this team is going to be able to score enough to beat the other better teams in the Eastern Conference. The spacing issues well known, the chemistry issues will see. I'm concerned about their rim defense without Isaiah Stewart, who just, they just kind of

gave away. And they're both, both the amount of shots they allowed at the rim and the opponent shooting percentage on those shots was like night and day with Stewart on the floor versus off the floor. They, they have shooting, but a lot of their shooting is, is contained in like pretty duplicative players, you know, Duncan Robinson, Isaiah, Joe, Kevin Hurder, like, how many of those guys are going to be on the floor at the same time for how long? And John Collins is kind of the wild card there.

They feel like a team that in letting Tobias Harris walk and. replacing him with John Collins and letting Stewart, dumping Stewart, kind of like was like, yeah, 60 wins last year in a year where a third of the league was tanking. I'm not sure we're really that ready yet. And maybe we'll take a small step back to take a bigger step forward. They do have all their picks to trade and a bunch of trade assets. Let's do Philadelphia concerns and then we'll take a break. We already aired all our Philadelphia concerns.

They're obvious, right? And actually kind of like, I kind of think they did a pretty good job. building out their depth with Simons and Dean Wade and KCP backup center. I mean, people want to nitpick at it because of how much time Embed will miss, but the Bona

Huck Porty and you slide Barlow up now and then trio, like that's not bad. I like Justin Edwards. I have a soft spot for him. We'll see what Phylon brings. Like the concerns for me are just obviously health and age with Embed and LeBron, respectively.

And I'm a little like, I'm a little interested in where this team can get to defensively. Like, can they be the 10th, 11th best defense in the league with Embedde's mobility? They were a bad rebounding team last year and not much better with Embed on the floor. That's about it, right? I don't think there's any, we're breaking any ground there. Yeah, I think the biggest, biggest red flag is defense. And if you look at NBA history the way you and I have through the Dean Oliver stats,

if you're not a top half defense, you're in big trouble. And if I had to predict the defensive rating ranking of the Philadelphia, is 76ers right now. I think I would choose 19, 20. I don't think there's a lot of young, energetic defenders on that side. And then on offense, I would just add the cliche, there's only one basketball thing. That's less of a concern for me. You're going to hear that a lot this preseason. But for me, both the Lakers and the Sixers, they have that same concern. I was like, show me the defense, because I don't think it's going to show up. I think the offense is going to be fun. Obviously, there'll be some things to work out.

Like, I think Cleveland, frankly, with the Peyton Watson fit, I think that's going to be clunky for like 30 games as they figure that one out. I think Philly has a pretty first world problem with the one ball problem. And I also think like, I think people are underrating the just the, and this is why I have them in this year and I would pick them as a top 16. I think the maxi, edgecombe, Jalen Brown, like their durability as a trio, that's a pretty stable floor. If Embed and LeBron miss maybe 10% more games than you would expect,

if those three play 75 games apiece at heavy minutes, that's a pretty stable floor to the sixers. Like I get what Wendy is saying, and I don't think it's a crazy take that they're not guaranteed a top six spot. I'm pretty confident they'll finish in the top six. All right, let's take a break and we'll do some concern trolling for the rest of the team. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $26 an hour.

Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields, like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. Toronto concerns Kirk Goldsbury. I mean, you have to start with Kauai Leonard. And I think Kauai Leonard deserves a lot. lot of credit as a basketball player. We don't talk about that very much with Kauai

these days, but he's not going to survive the regular season. He's not going to survive the postseason grind. I think that is headline A, B, and C. And without Kauai Leonard, I don't think that team is making a lot of noise in the playoffs. That said, I think they are ascendant. I think they're well coached. I think their defense is going to be one of the best in the Eastern conference. But on offense, with the Kauai sketchiness, I would put that as the big, sort of weakness. Either you can choose offense or you can choose Kawhi Leonard's sort of fragility, Zach.

Here is your moment that will appear in every Zach Lowe's show until it is proven wrong when I say that Kawhi Leonard has not finished a second round playoff series since the bubble in 2020. And between that and like when he's out, they still are

pretty light on shooting. Like we'll see how teams guard Jacoby Walter. We'll see what kind of, if quickly has a bounce back. Barrett is, has shot like better than expected, you know, but he's more a bulldog going to the rim than a spot-up guy that teams are scared of. Murray Boyles plus Pertle as a combination is going to destroy you on the boards and be terror defensively. Like, can they score enough if Scotty Barnes doesn't become a representative three-point shooter? I mean, they'll score a decent amount off turnovers

and bully ball and all that, but those are the concerns. Miami, I mentioned pull-up, pull-up jump shooting off the dribble playmaking from non-big's. That would be. my number one concern, I actually think this team has done a pretty good job building out its depth, considering the resources they were left with. They have a swap or two left to trade. And if they amend the pick that they owe Charlotte, if Charlotte lets them do that, and there would be a price to it, they could loosen up another pick to trade. And they are a team that I think profiles as we're all in. And if we can make one more move, we'll make it. So that bumps them up in my rankings. They've got a decent amount of shooting. It's the playmaking that makes me a little bit worried. And obviously they

made up for that somewhat last year with the unique offense that Spow ran, the Noah La Roche, no pick and rolls, just ISO, ISO, ISO offense that worked decently well for them. What's your concern about the heat? Yeah, I think I would say the back court, the creativity outside of Yanis onto Tocompo, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but just like your Kauai Stat, like Janus is one of my favorite players to watch. And I think you can't talk about him in 2026 and 2027 without talking about injury risks. He plays such a violent game. He's such a physical player.

Violent. I like that. And violence is good in the NBA. I like violent players. Violent stuff is fun. I've compared him to Shaq for years, like a young Shaq. When you look at his interior production, it's as good as anything we've seen since Shaq. But that takes a toll on a body.

especially when playing 82 games like this. So I think they did a marvelous job surrounding this questionable core after the big trade, bringing in Clay Thompson. I think what I've heard from Clay is really exciting. But ultimately, if I had to project their weakness, it would also be on offense like Toronto. I think their defense could be top 10, maybe even top five. But that offense, I think, is going to be 15, 16, 19, something like that.

And ultimately, that profile is not going to catch you. to the Eastern Conference Finals, Zach. Indiana is to me the last team who really belongs in this discussion, because Orlando and Atlanta, which we can hit, them winning three playoff series feels kind of unfathomable to me, even though I'm kind of higher on Orlando, I'm a little lower on Atlanta probably than consensus, but like, we'll talk about them.

I just, I have them a tier down. I'm going to shove Orlando into the next year. I just three playoff series, Orlando first has to win one, and so did the Hawks. And it just feels a little far-fetched. Indiana's got the track record. We mentioned all the pluses and some of the concerns like Halliburton's recovery from injury, introducing Zubots, but what are your concerns, if any, about the Pacers that we have not hit?

I mean, you get to start with reacclimating Tyrese Halliburton, as you called him, the straw that stirs everything in Indiana. If he clicks, though, Zach, and if everybody's, healthy. I don't have many concerns because I've seen what I need to see. Starting at the end of the 2020, the 24, 25 season, I think they really gelled and have an offensive identity. This is an offense I would expect to be top five in a world where Tyrese is healthy. That's how highly I think of him. And I've told you on this podcast before he is Steve Nash for the 2020s. That's where I think He is. He's a hyper-efficient shooter off the bounce and makes everybody around him look great.

Then you add in Zubotch and Pascal Seaccom and Rick Carlisle. I love this team. So I would go to the other side of the court and is this really going to be a defense that can stop a team like the Knicks or the Sixers or the Celtics in a playoff series? And that's where I'd put my concerns with the Indiana Pacers. Interesting. Turner for Zubats, obviously not a direct trade, but that's, the indirect transaction they made. I think is a defense first trade and maybe an offensive rebounding trade. That's an ingredient they haven't had. And a defensive rebounding trade too, like Zoo will kick it ahead and get that fast break

going and get the chaos machine going. At the expense of some spacing with now Siakum has to learn how to fit without a stretch five, I have zero issues with Pascal doing that. He's going to be awesome no matter what ecosystem you put him in. But that's an interesting concern to raise is like how good can they be defensively. I'm going to take the under on the Pacers as a top five offense in the regular season. They were ninth in the year they made the finals. And then got.

Well, I mean, like that's Bob. One of the kind of sneaky things about the Pacers is like they have made a lot of hay as an offensive team both in the regular season. I mean, ninth ain't nothing to shake a stick out. Like it's pretty good. They had a ton of injuries that year. If you remember, like Nemhart and E Smith went out a lot at the beginning of the year. And then in the playoffs, they took off like a rocket ship. They're an incredible shooting team.

Like they have been when they've been rolling, like outperformed their expected field goal percentage by leaps and bounds. They're an incredible shooting team from everywhere, mid-range, floater range, threes. Can they, can they hit that stride? Can they hit that rhythm again? Obviously, Halliburton went on, I think probably the greatest run of crunch time shooting, maybe in the history of the NBA.

I mean, I don't even think that's hyperbole in the play. playoffs with the game winning shots. Incredible run. Like people even forget about just game one against the thunder. Yeah. Just another game winner in the NBA finals for Tyreece Halliburton at almost the buzzer. My concerns would be, I'm not concerned about the Seacom thing. I'm not really concerned about Halliburton reacclimating other than I, no team in the East

can really afford to fall too far behind the top six eight ball in the first 25, 30 games of the season. I do wonder about their depth a little bit, and it's a little bit in the eye of the beholder, right? Like their bench unit will be McConnell. Yeah. Kind of took a step back last year and he's entering his mid-30s. And, you know, he was so, his pugnaciousness and one-on-one scoring was like so, such a critical ingredient in them sustaining when Halliburton was on the bench. And he and Halliburton actually played pretty well together, too.

I think Jaris Walker is probably leapfrogged Ben Shepard. Kelly Ubrae, rock solid, Jay Huff, backup center. I don't love it. I think Topin will play a little bit more backup five for them. I like him a lot off the bench. So it's kind of an eye of the beholder thing for them. But I don't sleep on the Pacers. Okay, the Hawks.

You would put the Hawks in this conversation. I would not. Tell me why I am wrong. And then I will raise some Hawks. concerns. Well, let's go way back to the 2026 NBA playoffs. Zach Lowe, name all of the NBA teams that beat the Knicks more than one time in the playoffs. Yeah, yeah. So, and, and you, you factor in, okay, the end of the regular season. And they were red hot the way we look at the game through, through offensive and defensive efficiency. They were, they were top in both those categories. So I think

they ended very strong. They didn't embarrass themselves in the playoffs, which is saying something in Eastern Conference that had some pretty ugly playoff series. And I just like the, I like the bones here. I like the bones of Quinn Snyder's offense and him finally getting this full season without the Trey Young distraction. I think this is finally the culture and the style he wants to play. I don't think there's a real weak link on the team. I think they can be a really good defense. I think that's going to be their strength. And I think they're going to be an adequate offense. I can't wait to see CJ and the rookie

sort of trade rotations in the back court. I do, there is a healthy respect for teams and I think the Knicks would be among this group with with traditional point guard types or

smaller guard types who are the main cog in their offense. There's a healthy respect for like fuck man, these guys can throw Alexander Walker, Daniels, and dort at our guy in turn. And like what happens when all three of those guys are on the court together? I think all I don't, I'm not sure who Quinn has penciled in to starting five.

I would probably lean to starting all three of them together and bringing C.J. McCollum back off the bench. But I could see them going back and forth a little bit because of the shooting playmaking issues. I mean, Jalen Johnson is an okay three point shooter and a really good playmaker. But there does become sort of a critical level of just spacing that you might not get. And, you know, they make up for a lot of that with just the crazy random style of read and react, random guys screening for random guys, handoff here, fled. Like, they get a lot of mileage out of that.

Defensively, the perimeter is rock solid. We'll see how the interior is with Oneeka, Congo is a sort of undersized starting five. The bench is another one of these, like, take it or leave it. Like some people would be pretty optimistic about, let's say, CJ comes off the bench, plus Kisbert, plus Aaron Wiggins, who I think will help them. Mo Gay, Jock Landale, Finney Smith is here after that random series of trades that all those teams engaged in with Buddy Healed, et cetera. I think it's okay. I mean, we'll see if Kingston Fleming's is ready to contribute or Zubi Edge of Four.

Aes Anuil, like those are all kind of wildcards. I don't, I got to see the depth before I really believe in it. I just think there's a lot of push pull between defense first lineups and offense first lineups and do they find the happy medium. But I think they're, look, Quinn's a coaching guru, genius. They're going to be a good team. I just three playoff series wins feels a little far-fetched to me. Yeah, I think that's far-fetched. I think I'm reacting more to why they're not more in the conversation.

Like I think they have a much stronger case than say Orlando, and I'm a huge Sean Sweeney guy. But until Orlando can shoot either an adequate volume of threes, which they have been in the bottom five of for the last number of years, or a decent clip at threes, which they've also been. at the it's just it's a deal breaker for me but Atlanta I think they love Jacques Laundale and I think they they think they have a deep team and I think their offense is correctly like a half court offense is going to be weak there but Dyson Daniels lewd Dort those long arms of a congou and Johnson they're going to get a few pick sixes a half that I think is going to that's going to make their offensive efficiency numbers overall look good enough to compete

for a second round, maybe a third round appearance in the Eastern Conference playoffs. The Great Barrier Thief, just one of the great throwback nicknames when nicknames, when America used to manufacture nicknames, nicknames for an Australian, of course. Also, one of the more stunning stats of the year last year was his three point percentage. Did it eclipse 20%? I don't think it did, right? Look, it might as well have been zero for the way teams guarded him. But I've heard some optimism from in that building that his stroke looks a little bit, no, it was 19%. That his stroke looks a little better.

And they're going to encourage him to let it fly. We shall see. Orlando, I mean, you just hit, well, first of all, Atlanta also really well stocked with trade assets. They have all their picks. They have, I believe, the lesser of New Orleans and Milwaukee's pick this year, which like that's even the lesser of that could be a pretty nice trade check. And they have a bunch of midsize salaries. The vibe I get from them is they're not in a rush to make the wind now move, particularly in an east that is pretty loaded. And unless something really that fits perfectly comes up, they might just prefer to wait it out until the next offseason or beyond.

But we'll see. Orlando, you hit the offense. The offense stinks every year. Nobody can shoot. Nobody's ever healthy. Yes, the theoretical starting five could be awesome. We just never see it. I think this is obviously the make or break year for the construction of this team.

They've almost publicly acknowledged that. The other thing that I think people are sleeping on is like Anthony Black, I love Anthony Black off the bench as a six man. The rest of his bench is like, what, what happens here? Right. If anybody gets hurt. I mean, De Silva, who's fine, he's the seventh guy and kind of fell out of their rotation in the playoffs, like, or to the fringes of it.

I mean, back up center, they've got Goga and Vouch. I mean, that's fine. I've liked the flashes that Noah Penda has shown. Jamal Kane had one of the dunks of the year. Jace Richardson's in year two. They need some of those guys. Javon Carter is always out of their rotation for 30 games, comes in, fuck shit up for 10 games,

and then goes out of the rotation again. Jonathan Isaac is alive. Pretty much the best thing I can say about his basketball trajectory right now. I don't like, they have six guys. I really trust as players with almost no track record of meshing together in an efficient way offensively. And after that, it's like, oh, my God, a bunch of wild cards. So I don't, if they're healthy, I think they're going to win a decent amount of regular season games.

But like, to me, they don't belong in this finals conversation. I think Sean Sweeney was the best higher of the year. And I will put my name on. I love Sean. I think he was a huge part of why San Antonio found a really solid defensive identity. And I think his track record in Dallas deserves a lot of respect to on the defense. of the court. Orlando was built to be a great defense.

So I think they can improve there. Ultimately, for me, those act, the question I've talked about it on your show for years now, is can Paolo Bancaro become a real all-NBA caliber player? Can he find offensive efficiency? Can he blend attacking the rim and choosing his spots more wisely as a jump shooter?

He's beginning to trend in that Westbrookian direction where I just, just don't trust the decision making as a shooter and as a shot creator himself. He's a great passer. He's a great interior score. He has a great feel for the game. Can something happen with Sean where he finally puts it together? And if it does, I think this team's ceiling is pretty high. That said, second round of the playoffs is that ceiling for me.

That's fair. I mean, again, they haven't won a playoff series in the 2020s. So they would take that, but that should be a win for them. And like part of this is, you know, And Paolo and Franz have had to do so much heavy lifting because Suggs is hurt all the time and they don't really have a traditional point guard. Like I do think these pieces could fit decently well together better than we've seen with if they were ever like Bain, I think was the right player type for them to go after. They traded the farm to get him and it hasn't paid off that much so far. But we just haven't seen it.

And even if we see it, I don't know if they'll score enough. Okay. Well, now we have to circle back to the original question, Kirk, which is if. I have to pick a team to make the finals from the East, and I can't pick the Knicks by Fiat that I'm making up. Who would I pick? Did you finalize your selection? Who are you going to make you make an actual pick? Brian Windhorst, you know, he's a dear friend, but he's dead wrong.

Philadelphia 76ers just have too many good basketball players to not be my pick in this conversation. So I hate this whole exercise. I hate that I'm making myself do this. You're the one who assigned it, bro. I assigned it and I don't trust any of these teams for reasons that we have just gone through our lack of trust. They are set up. All of them are set up to break our hearts and hurt us. And I don't, you know, I don't want to expose myself to that kind of pain, Kirk.

I just don't want to do it. I've had some heartbreak in my life. I don't want it anymore. But I made myself make a pick. We went through all the concerns. Trust no one. Fox Mulder. in a world of trust no one,

in a world where I have like pretty serious concerns about all of these teams as playoff three series winning teams, I can't believe I'm doing this, but if I'm forcing myself to pick one and I'm doing it, in that universe, I think I'm just going to go with the team that has the, if this actually works, holy crap, upside. And I'm going to pick Philadelphia against all

of my better judgment. I mean, literally, this is one of the only picks I've made where as I'm making it, I'm like, this is dumb? Like, why are you doing this? Is Joel Embed going to survive three playoff rounds? You're the one who's insane. He'll never survive three playoff playoffs. I think this team understands that. And we might see between Embedd and Kauai, the first ever playoff load management plan in basketball history. And like, maybe that's what it takes. And in this conference that is this muddled, again, I'm barred from picking the Knicks. I will pick the Knicks to make the finals, Knicks fans. Don't worry about it. Like, that's what, that's going to be my pick unless something bad happens in the preseason. But I think of all of these

teams, you can make cases for, I think you could, you could make a case for Boston, which many people did. You can make a case for Toronto, which many people did. I think there is a case for Miami. I won't make it. And I think there's a case for Indiana. I can't. I can't. I can't. I I can't trust Cleveland or Detroit quite enough. People will make some cases for Cleveland, I will. But of all those teams, I'm going Philly. I can't believe it. I just, I can't believe a car. Maybe your stat, your fake stat swayed me. LeBron has made the finals every year he's been in the East since 2010. So I'm in. Like, let's continue the streak. Well, that's a bullshit stat. I hope that didn't influence you. I think what should influence you is maybe Jalen Brown is

pissed off and he is going to just make sure that this happens. And Tyrese Max, he makes a jump. and Vijay Edgall makes a jump. And Joelle and Bede can be the fourth option, the ninth option some nights. I thought you were going to say, Joel M.B., please never jump. Like, can you minimize your physical jumping for the entire regular season and fall? And fall, I actually don't mind if you fall. Fall on your butt and just fall. That's what you do.

That's what you like to do. This is a, I'm just, I'm instantly, clip it now. And how instantly, I'm going to go have a drink after this place. It's 11 in the morning. I'm going to go have a shot of vodka or something after this. Cheers. But I think you framed the exercise this way for a reason, and I would wrap it up with that. The New York Knicks are the most sort of comprehensively sound team on this side of the NBA. They deserve the ultimate respect for winning the NBA championship and blasting through the Eastern Conference playoffs.

And they really haven't changed much. You can say Mitchell Robinson this or whatever. But like there is the New York Knicks and a drop off. I think that's fair to say. Okay. Can we do some rapid fire stuff before I let you get. out of here and teach you your eager beaver students. Okay, awards picks. I've done all of them except MVP, rookie of the year and defensive player of the year. We will save MVP for next week. Let's start rookie of the year.

Who is your rookie of the year pick, Kirk Goldsbury? I think there are, hold on, I'm getting my notes. It's Camboozer and it's not close. As a nerd, I think all of the NBA draft model guys were lathered up when this guy's stats came out and like, oh my God, it's Camboozer. and I did a little research for you to justify my pick. He's not going to be the one I want to watch the most. But, Zach, lo, let me ask you this question,

and I got stats to back up my answer. If you had to project Camboozer's stats this year, just points and rebounds, what would you, what would you land on? Let's go 20 and 10 right off the back. I'll go even hotter than this. I think Camboozer is going to be in the fringe All-Star conversation as he should be. Here's the stat I looked up for you.

I looked at the last 10 guys to average 18 and 8. I came down to 18 and 8 as rookies. Cam's going to do that. And if you think that too, consider this. Eight of the last 10 guys to do that, one rookie of year. Five of the last five have done that. Their names, Victor Wembenama, Carl Anthony Towns, Blake Griffin, Elton Brand, and Tim Duncan. Those are the last five guys to go 18 and 8 as a rookie.

Those are huge numbers. and I will eagerly watch all these other top rookies that we're going to talk about, but for me, it's Cam Boozer. Yeah, I mean, look, the first four picks are all, like, going to be sensational to watch. AJ DeBanza just, he has to live in this world where his team's not going to be very good. I think they could be decent, a play-in team if things break right, but he's going to be the third option and how is that going to work. Caleb Wilson is going to have all the touches he wants and a go-go, super fast offense.

He's going to put up numbers. I don't know how efficient they're going to be and I don't know how good the Bulls are going to be. Obviously the Grizzlies are not going to be very good, but I think they're going to be better than people expect. And I think Cam Boozer, as a big man who can shoot and pass, is actually going to be decently efficient.

Like, I don't think he's going to be one of these 18 and 8, but he shoots 42% as a big guy. Maybe I'm wrong. Darren Peterson, again, like, complicated ecosystem for him with three established star-to-all-star-level players around him, but I think he's going to be awesome. The other guys I looked at, I think I would probably put Braden Burrys next. I think he's going to get all he can eat in Milwaukee.

I loved him in my just like brief dabbling in the draft. I loved him in Summer League. I think he's going to be good. McHale Brown Jr. Darius Aikoff. And that's pretty much the entire rookie of the year. I mean, Aikov just because he's going to get the ball a ton. Keaton Wager, I don't think we'll start right off the bat for the Clippers.

And Yaxo land aboard, even if he does start, he's just not going to put up the traditional kind of rookie of year stuff. So I'm with you. Cambozer is my pick. Wow. We agree. Next one is the assignment was defensive player of the year

if Victor Wenbanyama does not reach the 65 game threshold. Because if he does, I think we all would agree he's going to win defensive player of the year. I narrowed my field down to seven candidates that I will not name yet.

Who was your pick for the non-Wembey defensive player of the year? I'll go with a list of three. I think Chet Holmgren and Rudy Gobert are clearly a part. Like there's this tier with Wemby, Chet and Rudy. And I think Wembe deserves to be far and away, number one. So in a world where he doesn't get to 65 games, that would suck as a Spurs guy. Chet, Holmgren, and Rudy deserve to be there.

This is a point I'm sort of increasingly passionate about for this award, Zach, is that it should be somebody who protects the basketball hoop and gets rebound. These are two of the most outsized impacts. If you look at the best defenses in the league, They have a guy that does that. And Chet and Rudy both do that. Now, Chet's Rudy rebounding numbers are a little lower. He ranked 21st in rebounding last year, but he plays next to Hardinstein a lot,

and that takes a lot of those rebounds away. Here's my long shot stat, and it's a player who's currently 16th or 17th best odds to win it. But he's also a top five rim protector and a top five rebounder in the NBA coming into this year. And for those reasons, my friends in Portland should be excited. Donovan Klingan, I think, is the dark horse candidate. Again, I'm a man who loves rim protection and rebounding for this award. So Donovan Klingan currently plus 15,000, Zach, on the fan dual odds. And way below a lot of guys who I think have less of a chance.

But Donovan Kling is a name to watch here. If you were single, Kirk, and you were on the apps, whatever apps there are, I'm a man who loves rim protection, which should be high up on your dating profile in the event that you were single. You are not. You're happily married with a family. Great, great phrase. Not as great as Mets GM David Stearns saying an instantly iconic line. I don't know if you saw that, that some of the transactions they made in the offseason before this disastrous season created the potential for, quote, an uncapped downside scenario.

Never heard that one before. If I had a fantasy to baseball team, I would instantly change its name to uncapped downside scenario. What a just, hold on. We're not, I have an answer to this. I want to ask you,

which NBA team coming into the up, this upside, this upcoming season has the highest uncapped downside scenario. You know there's only one answer to this question. I hope you have the same answer as me. It's been, it's been the answer for 17 of the last 25. years in the NBA and it's the Sacramento Kings who might as well change their name to the Sacramento

uncapped downside scenarios but did you have a different selection well I was looking at quality teams like the Mets had real high hopes coming into this season so I I will reframe the question okay as so with that understood I would say that Minnesota Timberwolves have an uncapped downside scenario there's a lot of personality there's less Nas read there's more lamello ball And there's a bunch of potential, what is it, uncapped downside. That's a hard thing to remember, Zach, Lowe. I was going to say, I can't say Philly because I just picked them as my whatever team. And I said that as long as those three guys are healthy, Maxie, Edgecombe, Jalen Brown.

I actually think their downside scenario is capped. Yeah. Definitely speaking. I'm tempted to say Detroit only because I could see a world in which they drop. from like 60 to 48 wins. Yeah. But that's still capped at a decently high level. I don't see, I hate to even say this.

You're making me look at teams that have expectations. I said this last week. I think the Warriors are at risk of missing the play in. Just straight up missing the play in. I don't know if I'll pick them, but, you know, I mentioned the top six. And I would right now put Portland, Phoenix, and Utah above the, Warriors, which would slot them in at 10th, and then just open the door to, like, if any of

these other teams overperforms, your downside scenario is now uncapped. So you're picking who you're picking, Chet? Who's your... So ultimately, my pick if it's not Wembe is going to be Rudy Gobert, the other French guy. So here were my... I lied. I had eight names highlighted for this award.

Chet gets, I think, maybe unfairly penalized by the defensive infrastructure around him, but Dort is now elsewhere. Bam, just always does, just never gets enough love in this awards race. He's always like, yeah, I'll put him to the fifth guy in the first team all defense. Yeah. Both the Thompson twins. O.G. and Obie. Yep.

Rudy Gobert. Evan Mowgli. He did win it relatively recently. Right. And Scotty Barnes. Those are my eight finalists for this fake non-Wembey defense player of the year. Chet's the safe pick, I think. We know they're going to have like a top two defense in the NBA.

NBA and he'll be the best big man defender on it. I am going to go out of the box and pick Scotty Barnes as my non-Wembe defensive player of the year. I thought he was sensational last year and hit another level in the playoffs. And if Kauai relieves him and Emmanuel quickly relieves him of a little bit of like I've got to do so much heavy lifting and it's like physical and grimy and it takes a lot out of me, I think this guy could be like four stockings. a game, great rim protection numbers, switch across every position, Raptors finish in the top

four in defense. I can see a Scotty Barnes defense player in your case. So I'm going to pick Scottie Barnes. I love Scottie Barnes. And one of the coolest things I could say about LeBron James at his absolute apex is I think he could guard anybody else in the NBA. And that is they get a very big compliment from the fastest point guard to the biggest big LeBron at his peak. And I think that's where I think Scottie's defensive strength is, is he can almost have with the biggest bigs and the fastest guards is so long, so strong, willing defender. I could see that happening. Again, I'm going to prioritize guys that are affecting paint production by the opponent

and getting a lot of rebounds. But if you're a person who really values that versatility, that's a very valid pick, I think. Just for the record and to be clear, we're both picking Victor Wenbigham to win if he flips his 65 games, correct? Oh, yeah, I think the best is yet to come with Victor's defense, which is insane. Can we do a couple more rapid fire things? Yeah,

let's do it. Did you see the points of emphasis video for the year on push-offs? Yeah, I did. And I saw it on, yeah, the paddle move. And I saw it on the screens. And then there was another one on flops, they said, right? Yes, I was lucky enough to see Amani McCutcheon in-person presentation of this. Oh.

And there's a very black and white difference between the full extension ones where the arm comes out all the way. That's going to be called every time. That's easy. I get that. And the ones when that's not, they are trying to create this discussion point around the phrases, firming up versus being too forceful. It's the four Fs, firming up, forceful, full extension, and another. F that I can't, I can't remember. Firming up and forceful is the gray area where they're like,

if you just use your forearm to firm up your defender to like get him to get him all the balance to like feel him where he is. Maybe feel is the other word actually, the other F word. Not fucking confusing. Feel. If you're just firming up and you don't fully extend, that's fine. But if you don't fully extend and you are too forceful, you've gone beyond firming up. That's going to be called an offensive foul. And let me tell you for the life of me, Kirk Goldsbury, you can show me all the clips. I don't see any difference between firming up and being forceful as long as there's not a full extension. I think it's made up and arbitrary.

I don't understand it. I think they're trying to address a problem that infuriated fans. I would expect a lot of fans to be like firming up versus forceful. What does that mean? I don't get it. And it's still going to be confusing. But yes, all for penalizing flops more. Let's bring back flop penalties.

Yeah, but that was also the most phallic eighth grade giggling conversation in the history of the Zach Lowe show, whatever you just did there with the four S. But I think this is a huge thing. I would say like the idea that you can use your off arm to push a player away is a clear violation in every other basketball league. What if you're just firming up? What if you're just firming up, Kurt? I know. Or feeling up or whatever it is. But it is.

shout out to Monnie McCutcheon for bringing out the eighth graders and all of us. I would say this has become a problem in the NBA and I'm glad they're taking it on. And I think there's a number of players that are doing it. And I said should be doing it. This is a smart way to get space on offense if they're not going to call it. That said, if you do it in FBA basketball, if you do it in college basketball, these would be called violations. I think it's a unique problem to the NBA.

And I hope they get it right. I'm a little skeptical that this will be called uniformly across the league by different officiating crews that naturally are going to interpret this a little bit differently for different players. And so it could be chaotic. But that said, let's try to get this right. I think offensive perimeter players have been given too much grace over the last 15 years in this league, starting with a three point revolution. But they're creating a lot more contact than defensive players, which is completely different than the way we grew up. up watching the sport. And I think it's time to correct that a little bit, Zach. So I hope that they get this right with the four Fs. You just said something that is important for me. You said the

phrase in this league. One of my missions for the next year is going to be to eradicate in this league as an add-on. People use it all the time. Like in this league, you got to do that. I'm not singling you out. I do it too. I want to have me and my guess where like an electric dog shock collar that if you stay in this league for no, like we all know the league we're talking about in this league or in the NBA, you get a shock live on the podcast. And I think TV, Broadcott game play by play and analysts should be subject to the same rule. In the National Basketball Association.

Then you get a doubles. Then you're just yanked off the stage like with one of the canes from the Muppet show. If you threw the whole National Basketball Association, I was a couple more things. I'll let you go. I was very sad about something this week. And it was that Dennis Haskins, who played Mr. Belding on Save by the Bell passed away. Were you aware of this news? No, I was, I spent a lot of times that I want to say 735 a.m. watching Saved by the Bell on TBS as a younger person. A great show for us. I did not know that. He was always getting Zach Morris.

He was always catching him. He was always trying to get pull a fast one on Mr. Belding. He wasn't having it. You just described the entire arc of saved by the bell in one sentence. That and Zach and Slater fighting over Kelly Kapowski, which no one really, well, I guess Zach ends up winning in the end. I think they get married in some movie universes. Here's my belding story, my Dennis Haskin story. So, you know, flying New York to LAX, which I do a lot, there's like an 80% chance a famous person is going to be on your flight in first class.

And most of those famous people experience a different airport ecosystem. than you and I do, Kirk. They're immediately ushered off the plane into, like, secret corridors where to no one can find them. And I understand why. I once was on a flight with Tim Robbins, who got off the flight and was immediately, somehow people had figured out that Tim Robbins was on the flight and met him with Shawshank Redemption posters that they wanted him to sign.

And he, like, couldn't get out of the airport. So I understand the secret, the secrecy and all that. I once saw Dennis Haskins in LAX. and the degree of, and he's like not experiencing the celebrity ecosystem, he's walking through the airport. And the degree of glee of everyone from the ages of like 30 to 55 was as if Tom Cruise had walked through LAX. People are shouting, building, building is here. And like a lot of people who get known for one role on a silly kid show, which is what saved by the bell really was, and I loved it. I think like they would get tired of just people calling them Belding and not Dennis Haskins, the actor.

He was like, anyone want a photo. Call me Belding, call me Dennis. I don't care. I almost wanted to go up to him and get a photo, but I didn't want to bother him. I love Mr. Belding. I love Dennis Haskins, R.A.P. And the second thing I will say is with the elimination of the Boston Red Sox, I assume your beloved Boston Red Sox at the hands of an objectively evil empire. the Low family will now be throwing its American League allegiance behind the Cleveland Guardians,

because they have not won the World Series in a million years. So we are shifting our allegiance to the Guardians. Our National League allegiance will remain with the Milwaukee Brewers and less than until they are limited. Do you have any allegiances in baseball? I just want to say the most impressive organization in pro sports right now at a time when billionaires are cheating and giving players extra money in Manchester City and allegedly in the LA Clippers. The Tampa Bay Rays are the most impressive organization in sports. They do more with less than any other team.

I don't know the specifics, but their payroll is fractions of what the LA Dodgers or the New York Yankees are doing. You can say the Mets. You can say the Mets. It's fine. It's fine. It's good. It's okay.

And if it weren't for their ugly A.F. stadium that I hate watching baseball play out in. I would be a huge raise supporter. That said, I'm still going to root for the raise. I think it would be wonderful for nerds everywhere if they could really moneyball the heck out of this thing and somehow win the championship with that payroll. Especially if they're not smacking a garbage can in the back halls of the freaking stadium, Astros. Astros took a tough help to the Pope's team. By the way, the Pope has entered the fray, sending a letter to the Chicago White Sox. So a lot of people are called, calling them the team of destiny, the Chicago White Sox.

They have the Pope on their side. I mean, that'll keep the Rinesdors distracted, you know, into training camp when they remember that they own another team in Chicago. Yeah, Guardians, Brewers, and Kirk Goldsbury, you've got to go teach you class. Thank you for your time and your insight. As always, you were on the Bill Simmons pod this week as well, talking what, Jalen Duren and other Media Day tidbits. Lie detectors, only different stuff.

Oh, lie detectors. Like another shock. Did you have a shock collar? We were zapping people? No, we detected the biggest lies. And we thought either Tim Connolly or Ty Lou had the biggest lie. Tell me what they were. I didn't see their quotes.

Bill pulled these quotes. Ty Lou was saying there's no place I'd rather be right now than coach. Yeah, that's definitely a lie. I mean, I could think of even non-NBA. I'd rather be lots of different places. That's a 10 out of 10. What did Tim Connolly say? Tim Connolly said essentially the same thing.

I'm happy here in Minnesota amidst all this rumors that he was going elsewhere. And Bill and I both called a little BS on that. But it's a wait and see if this lamello thing really clicks. And then, yeah, those were the big ones. And then I think Lucas saying like, you know, nice things about LeBron. And like it's sad to see him go. Bill called him out on that. It's a great listen for those of you need another podcast to listen.

Bill was in fine form. Well, there's no place I'd rather be Kirk Goldsbury than sitting here at my desk looking at you. in a Zoom window with your mustache. Thank you for your time and we'll see we'll see you around the block. Thank you, Zach. Have a great day. And now we'll bring in Joanna Robinson, so to let me yell and scream about the New York Times top 100 TV list and recommend shows for me. That's coming up. Look who it is. What a delight. Joanna Robinson, prestige TV, House of Ar, so nerdy on that podcast. I can't understand anything they're talking about. Joanna, nothing gets people angrier than a list. and the New York Times

with a bunch of collaborators, voters, I was not approached to vote. I don't know if you were approached to vote. Did the top 100 television shows of the 21st century, a line of demarcation chosen in part to just for, it's clean, the soprano's doesn't count that debuted in the 90s,

has a debut from 2000 on, The Simpsons doesn't count, all of that. I'm fired up. I have a lot of very uneducated takes. I listen to you and Rob Mahoney, very adorable segment on Prestige TV where you tried to guess each other's 10 favorite shows of the last whatever 26 years of the

since 2000. It did a really bad job. Rob one. Rob one. I wrote down a list on paper of both of your guesses. And there's one column that's way longer than the other. And that's your incorrect guesses for Rob. How are you doing, Joanna?

It's so great to see you. Rob's just an unknowable person. What can you do? I'm delighted to be here. I love talking to you about television, Zach, Lo. And also, we had a little pre-chat about the WMBA, and I feel really excited about my ability to talk to you about basketball. So, you know.

Is talking to me about TV, like, like, kind of like talking to a toddler about something. Like, you just feel, it's like a relief that you can just lower your conversational level to a point where it's less of a burden. It's just easier. No, it's like the, the. conversation you just had with me about the WMBA or talking to me about any sports whatsoever. Okay. So to review, your Joanna Robinson's 10 best shows since 2000, I think I have it right. In no particular order, lost and or better call saw, station 11, I hadn't even heard of it.

Apparently everybody loved it. You both picked it. Fleabag, Game of Thrones, justified, normal people. something called Taskmaster, that's the television show. And midnight, midnight mass. Those are your top 10. Yes. Yes. Okay. And you've seen the top 100 list. And so we're going to do rapid fire questions. Question number one.

The show on the New York Times top 100 list that you most want to watch and have never watched. So I will say this. This is my job, right, to watch television. So there are very few shows on here that I haven't seen. That just means that I do my job. That's great. But I have not seen any of the Anthony Bourdain travel shows.

So parts unknown and no reservation. So those are high on my list. Penn 15 is one that I missed that I know a lot of people love. I mean, it's pretty low on the list overall. But, and then I don't know that I would say dying to watch, but Nathan for you in the rehearsal, which I know a lot of people really, really love, I there's something about those shows that it's this sort of cringe factor that I can't get through

this discomfort that just does not play for me. So I feel a little out of it that I'm not into those shows. They're very cool shows to be into, but they're they're not on my list. So the Bordane ones are wonderful. I've seen bits and pieces of them, but they don't feel like shows in the way that like I don't have to watch all of them. I can just watch an episode. Oh, he goes to Croatia.

I want to watch that. I don't have to. So they just feel like I almost wouldn't even put them in the category that we're talking about. I think a lot of people put like, I think Bordane wound up because a lot of people wanted to do something that felt like nonfiction. You know what I mean? And I think Bordane popped up for a lot of people in that regard.

By the way, I've not watched Nathan for you. I did like the first five episodes of the first rehearsal. I guess there is more than one rehearsal now. Yeah. I just was like, I don't, I feel horrible. I don't like this.

I don't want to watch this. It's not for me. Not for me. It's not for me. All right. Here are my five candidates for my own question of show I want to watch, but have not watched. Lost.

The Americans. Ozark. Battlestar Galactica. Uh-huh. And Homeland. And Joe, you know my spousal limitations on violence and suspense and like all, and gore and all that stuff. So like a lot of that, a lot of those shows fall under that pile.

Those are my five nominees, Lost Americans, Ozark, Battlestark, Galactical, Homeland. If you were advising me to pick, I have my own pick based just on what I've heard. But if you were advising me and I only get one, what is it? It's lost. And I'm stunned that you haven't watched Lost, honestly. I think once you start watching it, and there is some violence and loss, but of all the ones you listed, it's the one I think your wife would most, you know, be able to get into. It's such a fun show. I know you're not a huge genre guy, so I know that there's some sort of

like genre obstacle there, but it is, it is so fun, so engrossing and it's so important, like, it's such a keystone for the rest of television, like what television has done since. You know, we talk about a show like Severance. Severance has huge DNA in common, with Lost. In fact, on this Times 100, Adam Scott was, you know, one of the, one of the people that they got to do sort of a talking head. This is why I picked this show sort of thing. And he was talking about Lost and he was talking about how when they made the first season of Severance, he was just rewatching Lost. I was like, I know you were. I can tell because there's so much lost inside of Severance. So absolutely lost. That's what I would recommend for you.

So Lost is my pick. Lost is my pick. I just, everything I've heard about it, it couldn't be more up my alley. I actually really do love Severance. And the only reason I watched it, my wife would hate it. The only reason I watched it is she was away for a week at one point right when it came out. It's like 10 episodes. We're going to go all in. No, it may have been a flight. Like, I don't know. Somehow I got into it. Like, right, I'm in now. I hadn't had a mystery box show, like a true mystery what's going on here show since peak X-Files kind of. And I, and I would put the peak episodes of the X-Files up there with anything that TV has ever produced. The run. The run. a little inconsistent. You have the post-molder episodes, which I kind of don't recognize.

You have the standalone ones versus the overarching plot ones. The good overarching plot ones with the smoking man and all that is as good as it gets. So loss is my pick. And I'm glad to hear it's got potential. It's got potential as a spouse, a spouse-friendly show. But so that was my pick. I do. I do think, because, you know, there's some, like, but it was a network show. So, like, you know, in terms of, like, the people, you know, get fist fights or people get shot. But it's never, as far as I can remember, you know, never as gruesome as something like Ozark

or the Americans shows, you know, I love the Americans, but shows that I quite like, but because they're on cable can get, like, quite grisly. I really hope you watch Lost and talk to me about it. I would love that. And I know, somehow I know, like, almost nothing. Like 20 years later or whatever it is, I'm going in, like, close to Col.

Okay, question number two, show that was criminally underrated that is on the list, but is too low on the Times 100 list. Underrated, but on the list. Do you know my number one pick was lost, which comes in at 22, and I think that's too low? I think it's a top 10, maybe top 15 show, like in terms of a consensus. Like, I really think loss should have been higher. But since we just talked about lost, I actually had Halton Cash Fire here. And we can talk about where help catch fire is in the list. Save that one for me.

Because I'm going to get up. I'm fired up. How about Shogun? That's a show that if it had been one season and done, because there's a couple one and done shows on here that were on my top 10 as well, normal people, station 11. If it had been one and done, I think Shogun would have been a lot higher. But because there's a second season coming and people don't know what that's going to look like, I think they're sort of hedging their bets in putting Shogun lower,

but that was just such a phenomenally successful adaptation of a book that had already been made into a very famous miniseries. And they just did an incredible job with it. So I would have put Shogun higher on the list. I'm looking for it. Where is it? I'm looking for it on the... 86. That's why it's even lower.

All my friends were super hyped up about Shogun, obviously too violent for the low household. Okay, I had three choices for this for myself. First choice, and I'm just going to preface it by being cheeky. You brought up loss being underrated at 22 despite being quite high. I just like the wire is better than Breaking Bad. It's not, they're not in the same universe. The wire should be number one. I don't really understand why breaking.

I love Breaking Bad. I enjoyed Breaking Bad. It's actually the last show that I watched where it felt like. the whole world was tuning in on Sunday night or whatever night. The final episode was on is the last. I didn't get that with Game of Thrones. I got it with Breaking Bad. Love Breaking Bad.

It's in my top 10. The wires is underrated at number two. I will always go ahead. You have questions for me. I noticed it did not make your top 10, which I don't know what to make it. Well, Rob and I on this week's prestige, Rob and I were talking about having like if we had one do over on our list, what we would do.

and I said I would put the wire on my list. I think I got a little too, I'm not going to put any of the like really obvious ones on my list. And I don't know why I did that, but that's something I did. I mean, even though I have Game of Thrones on there. But I think I should put the wire. But something we were talking about in terms of the wire was,

I think a reason why it might have made number two instead of number one is the like differences between the seasons. The way each season has its own very special flavor and how some people don't hang with the second season. season doc storylines. I'm a big Frank Sabaka guy, but like not everyone is.

Never got the angst about season two. Season two is awesome. I don't understand why people don't like it. It's amazing. I don't get it. But you know, I feel like people have their favorite seasons of the wire,

but maybe feel that inconsistency over the seasons. Whereas Breaking Bad, even though there are inconsistencies, like I think Breaking Bad was just sort of on an up and up and up trajectory. And so it ends so it like starts, still figuring out,

out what it is and that it ends so high. And to your point about that like monoculture moment, which the wire never had, the wire didn't get that consensus everyone's tuning in experience. So I wonder if you award points for everyone was watching it together and how powerful that feels, you know? It's fair. I love bringing bad. It's like one of my favorite shows ever. I just think the wires objectively, objectively better. I think that's a good take. Okay. I will always stand for, let me see where it came in. I don't know. These things are too little for me to read.

The Shield just massively underrated show. I'm glad it made the list. I'm trying to find where. It's number 70. I mean, number 70, come on. Not too bad, but it should have been in the top 50. The Shield is so influential. Like, it changed television, you know?

It, like, I think it, you know, it came about after the Sopranos, but it was so, it's one of those huge era of the anti-hero, Vic Mackie, sort of important shows that I think got forgotten in the way that some of, you know, the Sopranos and Mad Men and Breaking Bad get sort of cemented inside of that world. But the shield was so important.

And everything that happened at FX after the Shields, like justified, which is on my list, like you don't get justified without the Shield because you don't get Walton Goggins, like, you know, in that space inside of the FX universe without the shield. So, like, I agree with you. I think it should be much higher. Shane Vendrell, one of the great characters in modern TV history, Walt Goggins,

as is Vic Mackey and like a pilot that just smacks you right across the face. Like, this is what the show is. Get ready. And just there's no dip. There's no dip. It's just a crescendo the entire way for, I think, four seasons, five since I can't remember. And then we get to the thing that invalidated the entire list. I'm going to be that guy.

Joe, I don't like the guy who's like, you don't agree with me on this. So your entire pile of work that you labored over for months and months is invalid. However, if you have halt and catch fire number 96 out of 100 shows since 2000 on your top 100 list, New York Times, that's when you scrap it and you start over and you look at the methodology and you ask yourself, what have we done wrong here? It is my second favorite show of all time behind the wire. I don't, I just don't understand. I'm just going to say some names of television shows that are above it on the list. And I'm not trying to be rude.

I'm just saying the diplomat. The diplomat, the diplomat, I like the diplomat. I'm with you on that. Give me Carrie Russell all day long, love the diplomat. It's an objectively ridiculous television show. That's part of its appeal, I think. I loved catastrophe. It's not better than Hought and Catch Fire.

and I'm leading out comedies like 30 Rock and Kirby and season because I love those shows and they're just hard to compare. The Great British Baking Show, I wanted to start a Great British Baking Show segment on this podcast. To put it above Halt and Catch Fire is a crime. It's regular people baking fucking pies. Settle Down. The Queen's Gambit. Modern Family. Ted Lassow.

Look, I got a soft swap roll coach Lassow, but after season one, it hasn't been the same. The bear. I agree. The bear, how about we make a show where the whole show is either people screaming at each other, but it's supposed to be funny somehow, or just 10-minute continuous montages of food being prepared for four straight seasons? Come on. House of Cards?

House of Cards? Again, I have to ask about sort of, uh, it's five spots higher. Again, I have to ask about sort of, Rob and I were talking about this a little bit off pod about House of Cards. House of Cards was so important. Like, this is the question, is it best, is it favorite is important.

And House of Cards, which is what kicked off the entire Netflix era, right? House of Cards and Orange is the New Black is like what started Netflix television. And, you know, Kevin Spacey, we do not say his name anymore. But like the fact, it was at the time that they got Robin Wright and Kevin Spacey

and we're executing at this high level. It's not a show that I revisit, I think largely because of the Spacey element, but like for what it did to television, how Netflix joining the Prestige TV era and bringing binge to prestige television forever dramatically change the landscape, I think you have to acknowledge House of Cards.

Talk to me about what, Holt and Catch Fire is so good. I'm not even done. I'm not even done. Okay, you're not done. Fine. Hat tip to the business success in whatever of House of Pardt. which was I watched the first three or four scenes of it and I was like, this is also like the diplomat, completely ridiculous, but entertaining.

The White Lotus at number 21. I like the White Lotus. I've watched every episode of The White Lotus. It's fantastic to look at. It's always the same formula, which works every time. Something bad happens at the beginning and it's resolved at the end, whatever. It's just, and it has like interesting things to say about sexual dynamics and friend dynamics and all of this. Class, yeah.

It's just not as good as Haldon Catch Fire. Now, Halton Catch Fire. You've seen it? I have. I just think it clearly starts off as Mad Men 2.0 for the tech industry with a mysterious protagonist who's hiding something and is slick and a salesman and all that. And evolves into a show that is about the costs and benefits of devoting your life to your work. And what you get out of it, what you miss because of it. And a show that starts off about a

slick, classic male protagonist, I think really becomes about two female business women trying to make their way in a corporate tech world of the 80s and 90s. And maybe it goes into early 2000s. I don't think so, though. And their beautiful relationship together. And anyone who has devoted a huge part of their life to their work can find things that the show speaks to them about, about what that means for your own satisfaction, what you miss out on, what the, and the relationships are beautiful. It's just a beautiful show. It's beautiful to look at. It has to me like iconic television moments. I'm sure you remember the neon sign flashing and going out when the two of them are taught when Donna and Cam are talking about the business. They might start together one day.

And I think it is the rare show, and I will stop now, that gets, can, continuously better every single season and every single episode and sticks the landing on the finale to a degree that is like, I didn't watch six feet under. I'll take everyone's word for it. That it's like the greatest finale in the history of TV or whatever. Halton Catch Fires finale is A++. Wrap it up. Done. I was crying. It's over. I don't get it. I don't get what people are not seeing. It's an amazing show. So the core cast of Holton Kish Fire, Lee Pace, skis, skis, skis. Cute McNary. But as you mentioned, Mackenzie Davis and Carrie Bichet become like sort of the actual

protagonist of the show. And then Toby Huss, who I also love his series. Like these are five all-star incredible performers as the core cast of this show. And to your point, it starts as this sort of like Lee Pace, Slick 80s, Don Draper-esque, what's his mysterious past, who's this guy? And it does become this show about female friendship or female entrepreneurship. McKenzie Davis is one of my favorite actresses. She's a, she's a, she's a, she's a, He's one of the reasons that Station 11 is on so many people's list. She's incredible on that show. And so this was a lot of people's introduction to her.

It's just like a huge, splashy intro of one of my favorite performers. I agree with you. It should be way higher than in the upper 90s. Where would you put it? Would you put it at number two? Two. Number two.

Number two. Two. Okay. What if you're being realistic about how many people, people have watched Holton Gitchfeyer. Well, is that, I guess, is that the criteria? I have to consider cultural importance and, and like, well, why is Friday Night Lights number 14?

And by the way, do not interpret that as a shot at Friday Night Lights. Clear hearts, clear eyes, full hearts can't lose right here. Nobody watched that show. Oh, no, a lot of people watch that show is just the standards were different because it was on network. It was on NBC at a time when you needed to like pull in more audience on NBC. but like and people have it has grown in estimation over the years. Halt and Catch Fire on AMC.

Not a lot of people watched it for seasons. People championed it. You're a great champion for it. I hope you get a lot of people to watch it based off of this episode. I already feel it. But I don't think it's become like one of those library shows that people go to and return to and it's grown in people's estimation. Well, guess what, Joe?

Guess what? I am a, I would like to think I am a, a good customer or a stupid customer because I have everything. I have every streaming service there is. Apple Paramount, HBO Max, Disney Plus, the Hulu bundle, all that. And I wanted to start rewatching, Hald and Catch Fire on my Peloton just for fun just to do it. And guess what? Guess what streaming service it's available on?

None. None. None. None. Not even MC Plus. I have to pay. It's available, but I have to pay extra per episode. or per season on Amazon Prime, I think, and I'm like,

I'm subscribing to everything. I still have, okay, anyway, let's go do another question because I'm getting upset. Everybody watch Holden Ketch's. Here's my question for you, Zach. When are you going to do a Halt and Catchfire rewatch podcast with Rob and me? Don't you think we should do that, maybe? Judging by the success of the show and its placement on this list,

I feel like that's a loss reader, as people might say, in the industry. Okay, we will come back to this. Okay. Category number three. Show you or shocked did not even make the list. Yeah. So when I saw that, and I think this is bullshit, but when I saw that they put True Detective Season 1, like just Season 1 on the list, like I didn't know that was legal. I didn't know you could just pluck out one season of a show.

But they put True Detective Season 1 on the list. And if we're just pulling out singular seasons, then I think Fargo belongs on this list. Shocker. I've never even seen it. I'm like, I thought everyone loved that show. I mean, the seasons are inconsistent. But again, if we're talking about anthology shows

where you can just pull out a season, Fargo season one, and for that matter, Fargo season two, absolutely belong on a list that includes, to your point, the diplomat. So I will knock the diplomat. I think it is aggressively fine. Mediocre.

West Winglight is what the diplomat is. Ooh, I like that. My surprise omission was Silicon Valley. I couldn't believe that was not on the list. I think it's a very good comedy. It's one of my favorite favorite comedies. Like, I don't laugh like I do when I watch 30 Rock or Curb Your Enthusiasm or Seinfeld back in the day, whatever. I just, given how prescient it has been about a lot of different things and the fact that it's funny and the fact that Mike Judge has become like a TV god, kind of surprised that it did make the list.

And I'm not a particular fan of this next show, but it won every single possible award in season one, somewhat inexplicably to me. It's not my cup of tea. I thought for sure the studio would be on here, even though it's only one season and all of that. But it like won everything in Hollywood. People love the show about Hollywood, apparently.

Here's my other pick. I'm actually really shocked this on here. Is Gray's Anatomy, only just because it's like such a big, big deal. Like, Gray's Anatomy, one of the longest running shows of all time.

And I'm not saying it's always been a great show, but it is, it launched Shonda's career and like scandals on here. And that's great. But like, Gray's Anatomy should be somewhere

on this list. It's astounding to me. It's not on there. I, I didn't even think about it. It's still on, right? Yeah. Yes.

And I thought for a second, maybe it debuted in 1999, but I, I think there's no way it did. And that's a shocker. That's the 20 million an episode, you know, for what's her name, Ellen Pompeo. Yeah. Wow.

Okay. Spicy category. Overrated, listed too high. Yeah. Are you going to get in trouble for your response to this or do you just not care? No. I'm fine. The Crown, I think is too high.

I like the Crown. but it's at number 20 and I think that's way too high for the crown. I put it in the top 50 but I would not put it at number 20. Over lost? No, absolutely not.

And then not to like double down on Netflix but also Black Mirror in terms of like inconsistency of a run. I think the first like three seasons of Black Mirror are like a masterpiece and then it just got progressively worse and shaky from there. So those are two that I was just really surprised by how high they were.

Never watched. Never watched either. But that's another, we didn't, we tried the crown and it didn't stick. Didn't give it enough time, I don't think. I'm not a big period, period, costume drama person, but it didn't stick. I think the first couple, you know, the crown famously, they recast it every two seasons as the character's age. I think the first two seasons are really, really good. But then I think it got sort of progressively fine.

And I just wouldn't, 20 is bonkers to me on this list. So, yeah. All right. So I already mentioned, I already mentioned the White Lotus, which I would have on the list, but not 21 in this hallowed territory that you're talking about. I already mentioned House of Cards, which is at 48. Yeah. Those would be two of my picks. I'm just going to say, I just, in the interest of fairness, by the way, a lot of people slammed flea bag at number five.

it's been a while since I've seen Fleabag. I remember being absolutely like walloped by how good Fleabag was. So I'm fine with it there. It's just been a while and I haven't seen it. To sort of check myself, I thought I had to do the exercise of, is it okay for a show where one of the characters killed a guy? And then we just never talked about it again. and it was never discussed and if it was never happened

would appear all the way at number 14 in Friday Night Lights. And then you know what I said? You know what I said, Joanna? I just love it so much that I'm completely fine with it at number 14. I really agree. I did some Googling because it's been a long time since I watched that.

And like Kyle Chandler, forget it. I'll root for him and everything. Connie Britton, the whole cast. It had been a while since I had, watched it. And in my memory, season three, which is the season right after the Landry murder, no one ever talked about again, was my favorite season. And I googled around and I saw some Reddit thread that was like season three is overrated and that everyone was disagreeing. And I went back and I was like, I wonder if some of these moments that I think are in season

three or actually in season three or if my brain is muddling it all together. The smash farewell episode is one of my favorite episodes of TV ever. I don't know if you remember that at all, but Smash gets into college after suffering a horrible injury. He goes and hugs Coach Taylor at his house. And he and Landry and Saracen and Tim Riggins and God damn is Tim Riggins the most handsome man on the face of the earth for like a five year span. Go and play one last game of pickup football at the Dillon Field.

And smash gets open, catches a ball, scores a touchdown, starts to celebrate. and the camera zoons in on his smiling face, and in slow motion, he says, where are you at, baby? Where are you at? And it slows down to drag out the words. And it's honestly, it's as good as the goddamn concluding shot of 400 blows by Francois Truffo.

That's how good it is. And it's also season three is also when Tim Riggins lays as cleats down on the field after they lose the state championship game. It's just an A plus plus season of television. It's that. it's that pickup game and then the game at the end of Friday Night Lights when they throw the ball and you cut

so you don't see how it can't get in and you can figure out from context clues what happens but like they kind of let you know that that's not even really the point that I will never forget but yes that last sort of pickup game between the guys and the magic trick that Friday Night Lights did of rebooting its premise to a certain degree

of like going over to East Dillon and how East. Dylan worked almost even better than West Dylan in many ways is just sort of like it's astonishing. It's a masterpiece show. I love it so much. So I'm willing to forgive the Landry plot and I'm willing to forgive that every single game comes down to the last play and they're often crazy Hail Mary's and ridiculous plays. My last answer for this, and this is a hot take, and I don't mean to like knock knock the show.

It should definitely be on the list somewhere. I just never really got the Game of Thrones mania. I watched the first three or four. I watched the first three or four seasons continuously. And my reaction was generally like, it's good. Like it should be plus. I'm entertained the whole time. I'm just not particularly moved or invested.

And I guess we're just going to put it at number six, even though the whole world degrees that it fumbled the last season so badly that everyone is ashamed to have ever witnessed it and that it ever happened. I just feels a little high. Six feels a little high. I appreciate not throwing the baby out with a bathwater on that one. And, like, again, I don't know if I'm, if I sound inconsistent when I'm like, hey, should we knock a show for inconsistent seasons?

But, like, I think the last two seasons of Thrones are, I think the last two are pretty bad. And I actually don't even really like. That's 25% of the show. I really don't even like five that much. But I think what Thrones did for, you know, just the way you're describing this like monoculture, we're all watching a show together. The way that Thrones, like Harry Potter and even more property, but the way in which these shows sort of rearrange the way that people think about story,

the way it introduced fantasy storytelling to a ton of people, the way it is responsible for my entire career, Zach Lo, I just can't, I can't count it out. So it's too important to me. You can't chalk up your career to show. I'm too close to it. No, if not for that show, it would have been another show because it's your talent. that is responsible for your career.

The show was a coincidence. It would have been something else. Okay. Last one. If you had to rewatch one show right now of the list of the top 100, what's your rewatch choice? Now, I realize you're rewatching stuff all the time.

You're watching episodes of shows that come out three times for your podcast, for your job. But just a show that's like, man, it would be fun to go back into that world for a little while. Can I pick two, a drama and a comedy? Okay.

I need to do a VeeP rewatch. I think it's time for me to rewatch VEP. I haven't since it ended. I like spot rewatch sometimes, but I think it's time for me to do a full VEP rewatch. That show is so good and, and like so funny and such a great world to be in. And I think as we navigate the political waters

that we current exist in, it might feel good to laugh a bit at the absurdity. The way in which VIP became essentially like a documentary, or actually the way in which VEP became like a kinder, gentler version of what we actually. have found ourselves in. I think it might be good to watch beep. And then Band of Brothers.

Band of Brothers is something that like maybe I should just rewatch every year. Like should I, is that what I should do on Memorial Day? I should just rewatch Band of Brothers. Like that many series is so good. They just had an anniversary. I was just at a TV festival where they had a panel with a bunch of the guys from Band of Brothers talking about making the series and meeting the like real live soldiers who they were portraying and all sorts of stuff.

like that and it got me really emotional. So like band of brothers, feels like one of those things that I could rewatch every year and get something out of. So I think it's time for me to do that. I've never seen it. I think those are great picks.

It's interesting you talked about spot rewatching because my spot rewatch shows and I associate that with like we have 30 minutes left in the flight and the Wi-Fi is getting walkie or the food like I'm eating on the plane and I can't work. That's already VEP or 30.

rock or Kirby enthusiasm for me. Just like give me 25 minutes of just I'm going to be laughing uproariously in my chair and people are going to be like, what's up with that guy? You know, I will rewatch the wire someday, but it's too obvious of a choice. I will pick the shield is my my rewatch choice, number one. It's been a while and I just think it's awesome. And enough of it has faded from my memory that like of the particulars that I, it would be pretty fresh for me to like what's going on in season three of the shield at the barn.

Season three is my favorite season of the shield. That's a great choice. I really want you to watch Band of Brothers. I want you to watch Band of Brothers to see how many people who became famous were in Band of Brothers before they became famous. That's a really fun part of it. Okay. Are you like a World War II, like a World War guy?

Is that something that you like? Not my thing. Not my thing. Okay. I think you would like this anyway. Different World War, but I still, like, Dunkirk as a whole in my Nolan movie thing. Not really my thing, but perhaps one day I will watch it. Yeah.

I think you would, I mean, I think Lost, the fact that you haven't seen Lost, and if I can convince you to watch Lost, and maybe you and your wife would enjoy watching it together, I would consider that one of the most important things I've done in my career. But Band of Brothers is like pretty close thereafter. So here's, I think, the to do list. We get you to watch Lost. We get Rob to watch Halt and Catch Fire. He's not coming back on my show.

He's not coming back on my show until he's halfway through season one of Halt and Catchfire. I love this threat. I support it. Joanna Robinson, what do we got coming this week? What can you tell us about your next few appearances? Oh, we're covering slow horses. Remind me, are you a slow horses household? No, too violent, too suspenseful.

But I watched season one on my own once, and it was, I mean, as great as everyone says, and Gary Oldman's farts and his to toless socks are incredible from start to finish. Iconic. Yeah, so we're covering slow horses right now on Prestige. House of Art, we're doing a book recommendation podcast this week. So if you're looking for something to read, we've got a fun guest on that show. and learning more about the WMBA. I think that's what I'm up to right now.

Valcrees, baby. Joanna Robinson, you are the best. Thank you for indulging my idiot opinions on television and Stan Halt and Catch Fire forever. Joanna Robinson, thank you. Thanks, Zach. All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back next week.

I think we're recording Monday afternoon with a couple of people. It should be a fun episode. Thanks to Joanna Robinson. Thanks to Kurtz-Goldsbury. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production, and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe's show. We will be back next week. 21 or over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C.R. Wyoming. Gambling problem.

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