The Zach Lowe Show - The Forgotten Teams With Tony Jones and Jon Krawczynski. Plus, All-Rookie Teams With J. Kyle Mann.

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

Zach is joined by Tony Jones and Jon Krawczynski to discuss the forgotten teams in the NBA: the Philadelphia 76ers and Minnesota Timberwolves. Then, J. Kyle Mann comes on to break down this year's rookie class and select a midseason All-Rookie team. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (2:05) Tony Jones and Jon Krawczynski join the show (6:10) Could Ivica Zubac be on the move? (15:21) Thoughts on the league changing the tanking policy (25:45) The forgotten teams: the Philadelphia 76ers (35:11) VJ Edgecombe has changed things for Philly (46:02) The forgotten teams: the Minnesota Timberwolves (50:04) This team is waiting to be challenged (1:04:41) J. Kyle Mann on this year's rookie class (1:11:45) Who is the Rookie of the Year right now? (1:15:17) Edgecombe has the makings to be a star (1:25:38) Dylan Harper’s driving and finishing are phenomenal (1:38:07) How does Ace Bailey stack up? (1:47:16) Who are the other contenders for the All-Rookie team? Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Tony Jones, Jon Krawczynski, and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Mike Wargon, Jonathan Frias, and Billy Gil Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We got a loaded show. Today we start off with Tony Jones and John Krasinski from the Athletic talking about the, oh, you forgot about us teams to Philadelphia 76ers. What a weekend for them. and the Minnesota Timberwolves. Everyone's sleeping on the wolves. They beat the thunder over the weekend. They squeaked one out against the bucks.

Quietly surging up the Western Conference standings, we talk about what makes each of those teams tick. How is Joelle and Bede going to fit back in with what's going on with Maxi, Edgecombe, McCain rounding into form, Grimes, Andre Drummond, shooting corner threes, a dem bonus blocking shots. What's going on in Philly, Dominic Barlow, on a two-way contract?

Plus, we go through the news with both those guys, Domas Subonis Injury. If he's his Zubot's injury, should the clipper just try to trade everybody now? Can they even trade anybody? Who would they trade? Who has the most value? Tanking. The NBA is looking at this again?

That's what Shams reported ESPN. What's that about? Then Jay Kyle Mann comes on to pick our rookie teams, all first team all rookies, second team all rookie, just kind of a check-in third of the way through. Who's been disappointing? Who's been outstanding? We pick our first and second-team all rookies. Give a whole bunch of honorable mentions.

I see Annette's fans honorable mentions. that's okay. That's something that's all coming up next on the Zach Lowe show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is presented by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play getting whatever you need there fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking stuffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. The Zach Lowe show.

It's Monday morning. Holiday travel is in effect. We got a lot to talk about. And look who's here. Two of my favorites in the entire league, in the entire sports writing universe. From The Athletic, we've got Tony Jones. What's up, Tony?

What's up? How are you? Thanks for having me on. And John Krasinski, my buddy, from my live show in Minneapolis, just did his own live show at the same venue last night. How to go? Went awesome.

Finchie kind of made his thoughts about officiating known well and Bones lit the whole place on fire. So it was a great time. Bones doesn't know any other way to be. And Finchie's instant ejection against the Thunder was the single most predictable coach explosion of the season. Followed, plot twist the next night, Denver, Houston, you would think he made with Doca would be on edge ready to lose his mind.

David Adelman caught on a hot mic saying, what the F are you looking at to one of the refs? It was a great time. We're going to talk about your two teams because I've classified them as the, oh, you forgot about us teams, the Philadelphia 76ers at Tony Covers and John, your Minnesota Timberwell was both with landmark wins over the weekend, Philly winning on the road at MSG with no MBEed against the Knicks. And then Minnesota dealing the thunder, their third loss of the season. The wolves play the thunder well pretty consistently. There's something interesting going on. Do you guys mind going through some quick news items with me?

we start. Please do. Let's go. DeMontas Subonis out an additional four to six weeks with this knee issue he has. I don't really have any great takes on that. It sucks. He's one of the hardworking Ironmen in the league. He's the best player on his team. He is the most attractive on the trade market of the King's sort of veteran guys. I don't know that they really would be excited to trade him. They're tanking anyway.

They are just in, although they beat the rockets in overtime. Last night, they're in perfect position for a rebuild as is. The owner loves Subonis. I don't know how Subonis feels about the franchise at the moment. I don't think, like, awesome. Any thoughts on this? I mean, I just, I feel like, Zach, that is this a little reprieve for Sabonis to get him out of the mix for a little bit? I mean, the Kings are such a mess.

They've played Minnesota a few times, beat them one time. But I've been around them a little bit. I know Zach Levine a little while, too. just can't get out of their own way. And Sabonis is a proud competitor. And I just wonder, hey, take a little break for a little bit and just see if you can clear your head in this because it's ugly over there. Yeah, my take are two words for the Sacramento Kings, Darren Peterson.

Do not win another game for the remainder of the season and see what you can do to get the number one pick. And if it's not Darren Peterson, then it's age of advance. And if it's not age of advances, Camboza, because, you know, despite, you know, I've watched a lot of that game last night against the Houston Rockets. And, you know, when you're winning, when you're 6 and 22 or whatever Sacramento is in your winning games because Russell Westbrook and Dennis Schrooter go off while Keegan Murray stands in the corner and does nothing. That doesn't, that's really not a win for you anyway. You got to win because of the young guys

and they're winning because of vets that just won't be there for a long time. So, you know, If you don't have Demontas Subonis, you need a real infusion of Young Talent in that franchise. So those are the four words that, or the six words, that the king should be living by for the remainder of the season. Yeah, there were some interesting Domas fake trades out there. Simmons pitched me on the lamello for Sabonis fake trade, which I initially pooed. And then the more I thought about, I was like, that's not that bad. I'm fascinated by what Portland decides to do long term at center. I mean, Klingon's been pretty solid this year.

Young has not played really at all. But that's on the back burner for now. It vits his Zubots out approximately three weeks, according to Chris Haynes, with a grade two ankle sprain. If there's one question I get from people on other teams around the league more than anything else, it's, what are the clippers going to do? Like, this is so hopeless. Now, they did win against the Lakers. Luca got hurt. We're waiting on the Luca injury news.

I don't get to sense that it's going to be like. horrible. So fingers crossed on that. I expect an update later today. But it would appear so hopeless for the clippers. They're just in molasses. They're slow. They're old. They're injured. They're just so far behind. And they don't own their pick. I talked about this last week. And that's sort of, and Balmer always wants to win, et cetera, et cetera. I've pivoted the other way where I've said, approach it like the Nets did. Like you don't own the pick. The pick's gone. All you can save is a little dignity by trying to win games so you don't give up the number one pick. the number two pick, the number three pick. Dignity doesn't really get you a lot of wins in the

NBA. What helps you get wins is start accumulating some assets for the next version of your team. Unfortunately for the Sixers, Tony, or for the Clippers Tony, that James Hardin trade, which justifiable at the time, not a huge price for James Hardin, but it tacked on two more years to the draft brick prison that the Clippers are in, 2028 and 29. The Sixers, control the Clippers picks. This would be a much different conversation if the Clippers could go into next season or the season after and be like, we've now washed our hands of the Thunder Trade. We can completely rebuild from scratch.

They can't. But if I'm them, I said this yesterday, I know Zubots is on a great contract. He's a great player. If someone bold me over, like if I got two really good unprotected first round picks and a young player, something like that, I think I pulled the trigger on that. Zubaz is almost 29. He's injured now. he's generally been available.

He's good. I just don't know that like the next version of the clippers that's any good is going to include him. It's certainly not going to include Hardin or Kauai. I just can't really find any real. I mean, just park Kauai over here. I don't know what the hell is going out with that situation. Are there any James Harden trade?

Well, first of all, Tony, I'll start with you. Any Zubat's thoughts and any, are there any fake James Hardin trades? Bill, Bill has called me privately and said he's tried hard. so hard to find a workable James Harden trade. And even he can't really find one. But is anything coming to mind clippers-wise? I don't think that the clippers can trade James. I mean, I think they can trade him.

But I don't think they're going to be able to trade him and get a first-round pick for him. Certainly not a non-protected first-round pick. Zubots, to me, is clearly the most tradable asset that they have in terms of their roster. And, you know, I think the biggest, thought that I have what the Clippers is. This is the danger of making that move for, you know, the elite player because this is

the very blueprint of what franchises in Oklahoma City's position in 2018 do. They try to take as many picks as possible, as far out as possible, so that your franchise can't get better over the next, you know, five or six years. So, you know, they, you know, organization will say, all right, you know, if we control your picks through swaps and actual picks for the next four or five years, hopefully the lack of the picks will run your franchise down by the end of that. And this is exactly what you're seeing out of that Paul, out of that Paul George trade. So, you know, for me, if you're the clippers,

you look at your, you look at your, your sheet, you look at your roster, I mean, you look at your roster, and you look at your salary cap. There's nothing you can do to get better from this year to next year. There's very little that you can do to get better from next year to the year after. And then it's the year after where, you know,

real salaries like Hardin and Kauai start coming off the books and you can start to rebuild a little bit. So if you can expedite that by trading Zubox in getting a couple of picks, getting a couple first-round picks, I would do that in a heartbeat if I were the Clippers. Yeah. And I think, go ahead, John. Sorry. Yeah, I would too.

I mean, you're talking about a treasure trove of picks. Like, I think any two first-round picks you could get for Zubots just to try to replenish what you have a little bit, you'd have to do because where are you going right now? if you have the status quo. And of course, like as we talk about James Harden, any time a point guardy type player comes available, the Timberwolves will be mentioned in those things. I just don't see it for the Timberwolves.

I mean, in terms of the money, in terms of making salaries work and all of those things. But I would think that if the Clippers had the opportunity to trade Zubots for two first round picks and some kind of useful player, that's just a no-brainer for me, because they're going nowhere else. See, for me, they have to be potentially good picks.

Like, he's good enough and durable enough and still young enough and can fit with if anyone is coming here to play when we get cap space, a pick and roll finisher and defensive player like Zubots fits that player. They got to be good picks. I can't trade him to a team where it's like two picks in the next three years. The team's good. They're in their prime. They're probably going to be in their 20s.

I'm not doing it for that. But if they're good, I'm all in for just like, let's roll it over to the next year. You mentioned Hardin to Minnesota. I hate it and I don't see it. The only hardened trades that I could even try to come up with, and I pitched this one to Bill and he shot it down right away, you just have to look at Milwaukee for the sheer desperation of, if they're really trying to buy around Janus one last time,

and I think they are, and if they're not, they're really bluffing everyone around the league that they are. He's a name that you have to look at, despite the relationship between Doc and James, which apparently did not end well in Philadelphia. Bill said Doc won't coach him again, and I guess Doc and Bill are close, so take it for what it's worth.

One person in the, a league executive on an unrelated team pitched me, hardened for Trey Young straight up. I don't really know, I don't really know what that does for the Hawks. Yeah, I don't really know what that does for the Hawks. By the way, I'm so, I'm more disappointed in myself than I am the Hawks.

I fell for it again. Caca! They're just, no, I'm not even doing the cacca. The cacca is retired. If you're 500 after 30 games in the East, you can't cacca. You gave up 152 points to the Chicago Bulls yesterday. In regulation.

I'm so disappointed in myself. Look, I think the Hawks are a good team. They're better than this. There's a world in which all these pieces fit together. I don't think we're going to live in that world. And Trey Young has come back and like he made seven threes last night. the defense has been a disaster. Now, it was already trending in a bad direction before he came back.

But boy, it's been bad since he came back. I'm very disappointed in myself. But I don't see that one. Harden for Zion, I just, again, I don't, why am I doing that if I'm the Pelicans? I understand that Zion is an injury risk and all of that. The Clippers, I get it. Like, he's exciting. He's on a totally non-guaranteed contract that cycles every year going forward.

It could be salary relief at the very worst. If you're the Clippers, if you're the clippers. you're trading harden to get a salary off your books. So you're trading harden to take back a short-term contract or you're trading harden to take back an expiring contract. I wouldn't even worry about the picks at this point. Like, if I'm the clippers right now, I'm trying to do what I can to clear my books as quickly as possible

because we saw what this roster did. You never know when a roster is going to get old and fall off a cliff on you. And clearly, this is the roster. roster with the Clippers that we thought we was going to win. We thought the Clippers were going to win 55 games, 50 to 55 games. But the roster got old and it got old collectively and it got old really quick. And it kind of fell and it, you know, and it kind of fell off a cliff. So if, you know, you have to look at what you have, right?

So, you know, if you could trade Zubots for picks, you can trade him for picks and you can actually get some assets back. But to me, the assets in a James Harden, Trey, would to get a salary off the books, to try to do what you can, to go as far as you can, to clear as much as your books as humanly, as fast as humanly possible. Yeah, and Hardin for Trey is a wash in that sense.

They both have player options for next season. Hardin has a de facto no trade clause, by the way, that should be mentioned when ever talking about this. I, you know, I just don't, it's a tough one. one. It's a tough one for the Clippers. Last bit of news, you know, Shams dropped this little Friday news thing about, mostly about gambling, changing the rules for injury reporting, that the NBA is going to go to teams and say, you got to report injuries earlier and more precisely. They're going to talk to the gambling

companies about prop bets, which are completely out of control and you can bet on anything under this, under that. We've talked about that ad nauseum. And then sort of underneath that, he says, The NBA tells its 30 franchises today that the league is undertaken a renewed review of league policy changes concerning tanking, such as potential modifications to rules regarding draft pick protections, i.e., the Dallas Mavericks, Derek lively situation a couple years ago, revised lottery rules and other approaches. I thought it was interesting that the tanking thing snuck in there and notable. Now, there is a sort of gambling probe link there in terms of Chauncey Billups allegedly telling friends who knew friends, hey, we're sitting everybody tonight. There's an Orlando instance of that in one of the gambling indictments of, hey, we're sitting everybody tonight. And there's sort of just unpreventable connection between teams not trying to win and when that information gets out. I do think, you know, it's interesting that it's notable.

to me that that got wrapped up into this, this new report about potential changes down the road. I can share a little bit of, I don't know that there's any idea right now to change the lottery or anything around tanking that has any real traction. I think this is all going to be discussed. The league's going to go to all its teams. They're going to sift through ideas. They're going to meet at the draft combine when the competition committee meets. This is all, nothing is like imminent. I don't think there's like an idea that has super duper, momentum. But I just want to throw a couple of things into the world that are in the ether in the NBA right now that I think are going to be part of this discussion. Number one, should we revisit

the notion that there should be some limit on how many seasons in a row you can pick in the top X, top three, top five, top one, top two. Number two, the draft pick protection thing is related to, directly related to the Derek Lively situation from two years ago when the Mavs very clearly, they got fined. They talked about it, they got fined, they tanked for Derek lively. Is there some way to prevent that? And number three,

this one may be too complicated to explain to fans, it may be too cumbersome to actually enact, but there's been some discussion around the league of some idea that this has been talked about now for 10, 15 years of,

we deterred determine the lottery odds based on a system where you get quote unquote, your record stops after, let's say, 60 games. And then after that, you actually get credit in some way for how many games you win in the last 20. And so it's like a points-based system where losses plus wins after X games equals your lottery odds to sort of incentivize teams to win down the stretch or at least not try to lose down the stretch. the problem with that is, A, do you know the date in advance and how does that affect your seasonal planning? B, if you don't know the date in advance, and that's also kind of been discussed, like, when do you learn it?

When do we all learn it? How does that work? But those are some of the ideas in the ether. Do you guys have any favorites outside of those or any thoughts on this at all? Or have the lottery odds done the lottery odds plus the play in done enough to discourage tanking in your eyes? I mean, I'll say this, Zach, like, I do think the lottery odds and the way things it played out, especially with the Mavericks winning it last year. I mean, that could be enough of a deterrent in some people's eyes because, like, it's hard to get that number one pick now if you're really, really bad. Like, that's, I mean, the Timberwolves forever before the cat and aunt, uh, picks, like, they would always be in the running for a top one or two pick and they'd end up at four or three or whatever and, and miss out. and these odds are so much flatter that it should be a deterrent, but it hasn't been.

I don't think in reality. The thing that really does interest me, and I've talked to a few people about this, is like removing pick protections seems like a simple thing. You know, the last scenario you provided was really interesting to me, but it is so complicated. It's complicated. If you just remove pick protections, I think that that could have a really lasting effect. on team strategies down the stretch, especially when it just gets really obvious and really ugly over the last three, four weeks of the season, that it's just a race to the bottom.

And so I would just be really interested to see that play out. And I, you know, what would be the unintended consequences of that? I'm not exactly sure. But it may, it may like deter dealmaking and trading. And if you want to keep that alive, that might be a problem. But I like that idea of at least exploring that more. You just can't protect your picks anymore and see what that does to things. Well, for me, for me, I think that, you know, looking at the Utah Jazz to take them, for example.

Your old beat, your longtime former beat slash slash, you always have them in your heart. You always have them in your heart. All my guys. But, you know, it's interesting that you bought this up, Zach. And John, you piggybacked on this. I think they are an example of the current system working, right? Because they were so bad last year. They got the number one odds.

And what ended up happening? They got the number five pick. And, you know, a day before the lottery, I talked to the front office and, you know, the front office said, yeah, we think we're going to get the number five pick because that's the most likely scenario. And lo and behold, they got the number five pick. there are four amazing rookies in that top four. They got the fifth.

They got Ace Bailey. So, and not to say that Ace hasn't been good, he has been good, but he hasn't been amazing like the first four picks have been. So this year, this is the byproduct of that. The owner, Ryan Smith, you know, basically said, okay, we're done with, you know, this shameless, you know, tanking and, you know, sitting everybody out. And this year, they've been a lot more competitive.

And it's been, you know, and it's been, it's been intentional. You know, so they still have a top eight protected pick. I was going to say, I think we're going to see some slippage. Lowry's missed a few games. They still have a top eight protected pick that they owe to the Oklahoma City Thunder. They're going to do what they have to do in order to keep that pick. they're aware of it. They don't want to do it, but they are going to do it because they can't give away a top

in this draft because this is probably the best draft in terms of on paper since 2003. It's the best in a long time. But that being said, you know, through the first 27, 30 games or whatever, instead of 82 games of shameless tanking, you know, they've been fun. they've been a league pass team, as a matter of fact. Super fun. As you said, Zach, you know, there have been a couple of back injuries for Lorry marketing, a couple of doubtfuls and a couple of missed games here and there because, you know,

they've had Lari Marketing really pop this year and they've had Kianti George really popped this year. You know, so the front office is like, let's see what happens if we take away one of them. And, you know, now if they keep winning. games, we might see both of those guys, you know, come up with growing pulls or hamstring pulls or something like that. I also wonder if, I haven't thought about this idea quite enough to really say that I like it, but it's worth discussing, like, do the play-in teams that even make the playoffs get a couple

lottery ping pong balls or something to incentivize as many teams as possible to keep playing in the end? But this idea is, look, I guess, look, Adam's so. Silver likes nothing more than the world knowing. We're thinking about it. We got committees. We got a committee to plan for the other committee. We're thinking about it.

Look how full we're thinking we are. But I do think this conversation is not. Everyone around the league is concluded there's still too much tanking. Despite the lottery odds changes, despite the play in tournament, there's still too much abject tanking. What can we do about it? The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by Fandul. Tis the season to be boosting on Fandul, because this year you're getting

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Okay, let's get to the fun stuff. Oh, you forgot about us? Part one, the Philadelphia 76ers, a team that has endured more drama. more chaos, more absurdity than maybe any franchise in American professional sports in the last 10 years. Even more than mine, Zach. Even more than this one. Like nothing. I mean, Markell Fultz by itself. Twitter gate by itself. Shirt collar gate by itself is more absurd than anything that's happened to the Minnesota Timberlows.

Mbid has only played 11 games. Paul George missed a bunch of games. And here they are, Tony Jones. your Philadelphia 76ers, 16 and 11, fourth in the east. Sniffing the top 10 in both offense and defense, we'll get to how real that is. Rolicking win at MSG on Friday, followed up by a win against a Frisky Mavs team at home. Tyrese Maxi is having another breakout on top of a breakout season. Vijay Edgecombe is completely 100% legit.

And they just have kind of found something in Embed's absence with these three of these four guards playing at the same time. Grimes has been consistently good. McCain is rounding into form. Paul George, when available, has been pretty solid for them. Drummond is like making corner threes now. A Dembona is pretty solid. And they'll park those guys in the corners and just let the guards sort of drive and kick and run two men game between them. Now, there are some interesting numbers here. I looked up in Bede's numbers, Tony.

Some things surprised me about this. Because he's looked, as many people have said, slow, a little bit groundbound. The vertical leap doesn't appear the same. Like, he's not shooting as well from two or from three. We know all that. Like, he's playing. Like, I actually wrote in my notes.

He's, he's, it made my brain think about Jamie Moyer, like just a junk baller, like an old guy junk baller on the mound. That's what Embedd reminds me of. And yet you look at his numbers. They are allowing fewer shots at the rim with Embed on the floor. And opponents are shooting 10.5% worse at the basket when Embed is there. And as bad as his rebounding has looked, they're a better rebounding team on defense with him on the floor by a lot than without him on the floor.

Clearly there is still value to having a big, intimidating person in the middle of this defense, what's, what I want to know from you is, A, how real are those numbers? Because the eye test does not match those numbers. I was surprised by the numbers. And B, offense is almost more interesting to me because I watch this team without him. And then he comes back for a game or two here and there. And it's like, all right, here, like, he's still going to do his thing where he gets the ball at the nail, where he's a pick and roll hub and he's going to shoot some pick and pop threes

that aren't going in. And all that's cool. and he'll post up some mismatches. I know grift his way to some free throws and all that. But it is starting to feel like the guards are accommodating him. And I don't really know what this, certainly more than they have to do with Drummond or Bonner or anybody like that. And maybe that's fine.

Maybe it lifts up their ceiling. But their offense has been just as good without Embed as with him. So I'm just interested sort of what you're seeing. And does this even matter? Like, is he ever going to play enough that this discussion really even matters? Okay, so there's a lot to unpeel of the onion there. So, you know, I think that Embed has looked, I would say, 85 to 90% of himself offensively. What you said about him being groundbound is correct.

He's lost a lot of its vertical, a lot of his vertical lift. But the skill level, you know, his skill level is so high. that, you know, against most matchups, it just hasn't mattered. He's going to score. And he's going to do it. He's going to be Joe Ellen beat offensively. Defensively, he's had major issues in pick and roll, major issues moving laterally. He had the one game against Alex Saar earlier in the season where Saar just took him out on the floor and just went past him every time and, you know, just started cooking him.

So, you know, it's interesting because I always thought that Joel's biggest value to a team was how good a rim protector he was. You know, I thought outside of Rudy Gobert, he was probably, you know, one of two or three best rim protectors in the league, you know, at his apex. So, you know, he still got a little bit of that. you keep him closer to the paint, he's able to eat space in the paint defensively, and he's able to protect the rim. He's been able to do that. It's just when you get him on onto the floor. He hasn't been able to move his feet nearly as well as he had before the knee injury.

You know, I think because, you know, I think V. I think VJ. Excom has changed things for Philadelphia. And this is what I mean by that. you know, you knew what you were going to get from Tyrese Maxie. We did not know he was going to turn into an MVP candidate, which is what he probably currently is. He leads the league in minutes by a lot. And by the way, you mentioned him earlier, and I meant to throw this in just for trivia's

sake. He hasn't qualified yet because he hasn't played enough games. Number two in the league in minutes per game, sad state of the Kings is indicated by this. Kegan Murray at 38 minutes a game would be second. If you need key, if you're so bereft of anything that even looks like an NBA power forward that Keegan Murray is playing like 40 minutes a game, you're, you're in trouble. But yes, Tyrese max, he's been unbelievable. Yeah, you know, he's, you know, I'd probably have him around six or seven or maybe even eight. I'd have them, I'd have him somewhere in the lower half of the top ten of the MVP voting.

If, if, you know, he's been, you know, in the conversation for an all-star starter. He's in the conversation for first and second team all-MBA. he's been that good. You know, so, you know, we thought that Tyrese would be an all-star level. We didn't know that he'd be superstar level. But that being said, you know, I don't think anybody could have anticipated how good VJ. Eskram has been in terms of being an offensive engine. He's turned into a guy that can carry lineups by himself for chunks of games.

And because of that, you know, I think. that, you know, the Sixers have gone from, oh, my God, we can't win games without Joelle and B to, oh, my God, we can now win regular season games without Joe L&B. My thing, when I look at the Sixers and we talk about whether they need Joe L&B or not, I think that they, because of Eskham now, they're now in position where they can win enough games in the regular season to get to the playoffs. I still think when you get to the playoffs and, you know, pace slows down and possessions matter. You need what M.B., you need M.B.'s skill set in that setting. So, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how M.B.'s game when he played, how his games evolve when he plays with the guards now that they have broken out. part of me thinks

you know he should be try to be demontas a bonus offensively you know beat a hub at the nail you know get a lot of DHO assist fill in the scoring gaps filling the scoring gaps when needed he doesn't have to go out there

and shoot 25 times a game anymore he doesn't have to go out there and try to average 30 a night anymore because the guards are able to score and create for themselves and others at a high level. You know, so it's going to be really interesting to see how that dynamic works toward as we go deeper into the season just because of what the guards have established

in the first 25 games of the season for them. And when he's played, Embed has not acted as if, oh, it's my team again. Like, here are 20 post-ups for me. You all stand around. I'll draw double teams. I'll play my way and kick the bat. And he's doing a little bit of that. But he's like, he'll get off the ball fast.

D.H.O. Give it back to me. Kick it out over here. Like, he's not, he is not commandeering the offense in the same way. And I do think there is a, there's a balance there that can work for them. And like, this could be a really interesting team. I just have no faith that he's ever going to be healthy for any prolonged period of time, particularly in the grueling stages of the playoffs. But they've been a delightful surprise to me.

I did not think that they would be this good. And it is worth remembering how unlikely it is. that they have both Maxi and Edgecombe on the team. Maxi was the pick that was going to go to the Thunder, if not for a Mike Muscala rain-making series of threes on the last day of the season that put the pick down to 21st or up to 21st, so the Sixers kept it. And then I was in the lottery room last year.

I don't know if either of you guys were there. I can't remember. When Dallas jumped to one and San Antonio jumped to two, it looked like Philly was going to lose that pick to Oklahoma City and then rab it out of a hat, Philly's drawn at three and they get this guy, Edgecombe, who is just a sensational two-way player right out of the gate. Real quick, the irony of this whole thing is the Sixers have yet to win this year

when Maxie and Beat and Paul George play. Well, how often has that happened? Seven and twice. Yeah, I was going to say, I know there are four, if you want to call them the four core players or four best players or whatever, Maxi, Edgecombe, Paul George, and M.B., have played 22 minutes together over two games. So I don't know, I don't know really what to make of that. But, you know, look, they're, they are, they've been a bad shooting team too.

Like, their offense might actually be better than this. They're below average shooting from everywhere on the floor. They're 29th in shooting at the rim. I wonder if that's just they're kind of a small team. They're also cold from mid-range. On the flip side, opponents are cold from everywhere. So there's a little bit of like a dual regression happening. but I watch them like they're a pain to play against.

They're fun to watch. They play hard. All the guards, like even if they're small, Grimes defense hard. He had a couple strips against bigger guys in the Mabs game the other day. Edgecombe, like, yeah, you got to guard Jalen Brunson. You got to guard the best perimeter guy in their team. He can go ahead and do it. He denies the ball.

Maxi works hard on defense. Like they all try really hard and they all have good instincts. I guess my question, Tony, would be, is there anything they can really do at the trade deadline because they do have some picks at their disposal via the clippers, even though they owe a couple of picks to one to the thunder, one to the nets. They can trade a couple of picks. The problem is they don't have a lot of like fungible salary that adds up to a lot. And Grimes is on this qualifying offer deal where he has a no trade, sort of de facto no trade clause. Boy, would it be nice to retain him? And Barlow, Dominic Barlow on a two-way contract.

has been just he's just been like scotch tape for their power forward position. I would love to retain both of these guys for next year. I just don't, you know, they have some room below the tax next year, but I don't know if they're going to be able to bring them back. Is there anything they can do trade-wise,

or is this mostly going to be the team? Well, they got to keep Barlow. He's legitimately been one of their five most important players, which is absolutely insane to say about a two-way player, but that's where Barlow has been. this year. So, you know, they have the, it's a conundrum, right? Because you're not going to trade McCain because, you know, he's too young. And, you know, like you said, they don't have enough shooting as it is. And he's probably their best shooter outside of Maxie. So, you know, you're not

going to trade McCain. You could probably try to see what you can do with Grimes. But you're but you need Grimes to help out a lot there. You know, and if I'm the Sixers, there's no way I'm trading that 28 Clippers pick or that 29 Clippers swap because, you know, those, there's the possibility that both of those picks turn into gold at this point.

So, you know, but then you look on the other side and they're like, oh my God, we're 16 and 11. We're starting to play really well. you know, this group has shown enough that maybe we owe this group the opportunity to try and compete, you know, or the opportunity to see, you know, what we can do in the Eastern Conference because the Eastern Conference is wide open. Obviously, Detroit and New York have been the best teams out east. But there's no Jason Tatum, at least there's no Jason Tatum for now. Yeah, I was going to say, now. Yeah, for now.

We'll see. there's no Tyrese Halliburton. You know, this is a chance and opportunity for the Sixers, if this is real, if this start is real, to make a run. Now, the context is this. This is what I would warn Sixers fans. The Sixers have yet to play a basketball game west of the Mississippi. This is about to change this week when they go on the road for five.

they've played the Los Angeles Clippers and the Los Angeles Lakers. Other than that, they have not largely played the Western Conference yet. So, you know, the schedule in terms of difficult road trips and in terms of, you know, playing against the elite teams in the lead, they're going to see Oklahoma City on Sunday, you know,

for starters, you know, it hasn't happened yet. So, you know, there's still some context to go, with the start, it's been, you know, an extremely home-heavy schedule. It's been a road trip schedule where it's one game here, one game there. They've had one three-game trip at the beginning of the season, where they actually went one and two on that trip. You know, so the schedule is about to get tougher in terms of traveling and in terms of playing against great teams.

let's see where they are at the end of January as opposed to now. Let me ask you one more question before we have a fun discussion and pivot to the Timberwolves. I have a lot of respect for Darrell Mori and Elton Brand. I think Elton, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten a top front office job. I think part of that is Elton's choice, frankly, in a few situations. But you've heard the buzz. We all heard the buzz.

Thin Ice, is this it? If this season continues to progress like this, let's say they win 47, 48 games, or something like that. A solid first-round playoff team. Joel never really gets back to health, and that becomes a decent outcome for them. Is this front office safe yet? Where are we?

You know, I think the way that the season is trending, that you have to trend towards them being safe because I think you've got to look at the reasons why they're winning, right? Tyrese Maxis turned into an MVP candidate. Darryl Drafted him. VJ. Eschrim is very much a rookie. of the year candidate. Darryl Moore drafted him.

Dominic Barlow and Jabari Walker have probably been two of the three best two-way guys in the league. So you got a- Bona is solid. And Bono is solid. So you got him in the second round. You know, Justin Edwards has been able to,

you know, put together minutes. You know, he went undrafted. And, you know, they plucked They plucked him off the pile and they, you know, and they developed him. You know, Jared McCain would have been solidly in the running for rookie of the year. Darryl Morey drafted him. He has a lot to do with how this roster has been able to kind of regenerate itself around Joelle and Beade's injury issues. No, Paul George didn't look good last year at all.

And I think Paul George would be the first person to tell. you that. Paul George has been awesome defensively this year. He hasn't, you know, he's been kind of up and down offensively. He had the big game in Atlanta. But I think that this team is starting to evolve

to the point where it doesn't need Paul George's offense. What it needs is Paul George's ability to defend and to switch on the perimeter. And for as much as we talk about Paul, Paul, going two for ten against New York, he had

seven points. He wasn't really there offensively. O.G. Ananovi didn't score until midway through the fourth quarter. And that was Paul George. So, you know, I think that you have to give Darrell and Elton a lot of credit for, you know, what this roster has been, how this roster has been able to to kind of generate itself around Joel and Paul. And I think that, you know, Nick Nurse, his, deserves a lot of credit for getting these guys mentally there to play hard every night because that's what this team, that's one of the things that this team is doing, no matter what has happened, no matter who's been in and out of the lineup, they've played really hard every night.

So I think that if, you know, they go 47 and 35 and near to 5C or something like that and Joe L&B, let's say, so he's played 11 games right now. So let's say he gets the 33 games, you know, 47 and 35 with Joe L&B playing 30 games is a pretty good outcome. So I think that all of that is going to have to be taken into consideration. Last Sixers note, I said this before the season, it bears repeating. We can't have this be called VJ Max. We can't have it. It sucks. I don't like to store T.J. Max. I call it crap for sale. I think they should change their name to crap for sale and be honest about what they're selling. so we can't call this backcourt VJ Max.

And now the question that both of you are roped into before we get to the wolves, you brought this up, Tony. When Banayama is missed 12 games, Janus is missed 12 games, and counting. There is like an interesting first team all-NBA opening for Tyrese Maxi because he's been that good. 32 a game, seven assists, never turns the ball over, which is one of the secret sauces to Philly's offense. number one in minutes, great advanced stats. Before the season, it looked like it was going to be the all-world, first-team all-NBA with SGA, Yoke, Giannis, Wembe, Luca. Well, a couple of those spots may open up, may not.

And then there's going to be an interesting discussion involving the lead guards on both your teams, plus Donovan Mitchell, Steph Curry, Jalen Brunson, Cade Cunningham, maybe Kevin Durant. But I think Maxie's been that good. Like Maxie is solidly in that tier with Brunson and Mitchell as, yeah, he's in this conversation. Okay, the Minnesota Timberwolves. The most under the radar team in the entire NBA this year, I think. I said that on Bill's pod last week. He said, is there anything we didn't talk about after an hour of trade discussion in NBA trends?

So we didn't mention them as a good team, a contender, a trade team, nothing. They didn't come up one time the Minnesota Timberwolves. All they've done is make the conference finals two years in a row. All they've done to build that team are two of the most polarizing trades in the last five to ten years in the NBA. The Gobert trade and then the cat trade for Randall and Devinchenzo. I still don't know who won that trade. Maybe everybody won. It feels like it.

And just, yeah. So Houston's kind of new and fun. the Lakers, Luca, the Spurs are just new and super fun. The nuggets are, you know, proven awesome. The thunder are up here. I just think people are sleeping on the Timberwolves because, yes, their late game meltdowns. I mean, John, you and I, we need just an acronym for nobody melts down like the Minnesota Timberwolves. And they have a bunch of like almost meltdowns that they staved off through mostly because of the incompetence of the other team.

there's this sort of Alexander Walker void that they haven't yet been able to fill with Dillingham's minutes going up and down and now Bowens Highland is like, hey, wave, wave, what about me, what about me? And Jalen Clark's, you know, solid and T.J. Shannon, he's the one that I almost have the most hope for is like, I trust that dude in a playoff game.

Look, they're 19 and 10. They are in the top 10 in both offense and defense. they have a proven, there's something inevitable about them. They have a proven path to winning on both ends of the floor. Gobert has trended up in the last three weeks. He's playing really well on both ends. And I just, Ant is just such a dominant two-way player, but he is a dominant offensive force.

And all of that collises into a rowdy-ass win in the purple unies on the purple court over the thunder where Chris Finch throws a tirade, gets kicked out of the game, like two seconds, and they rally and win and go ahead on an ant three that comes on Gobert, tipping out an offensive rebound. And I don't know if he's consciously become like Tyson Chandler 2.0, but he made, Tyson Chandler made the tip out kind of a thing. He is doing this like 12 times a game.

It seems like he's getting his hand on an offensive rebound and just tipping it, tipping it, tipping it. I don't know, man. I don't know what they can do with to trade deadline because they don't have a lot to work with. They got no picks. They don't have a lot of salary. I just think this team is really, really good. And if you, like, we did this in the live show in Minneapolis.

Like, you can go through the West. Like, Oklahoma City is up here. San Antonio, 21 and 7. Okay, like, young, kind of got to see it. Denver, 20 and 7, I trust you'll catch more than anyone in the league. But Aaron Gordon's, what is it, Calf, Hampshire? I can't remember that that seems to be recurring. Christian Brown's hurt.

Paid Watson's hurt now. Like, we'll see where they are. The Lakers, major defensive issues and age issues. freaking sciatica. Houston, you know, they're six in the West now. They have a weird identity and some health issues of their own with Fred Van Bleet and Doreen, Doreen, Finney Smith, and on and on and on. And you just always come back to Minnesota.

Like, oh, there was this girl at the bar over here. She was cute, but she got pretty drunk. And there was this girl at the bar over here. She was really looking nice that night, but she left with another guy. Hey, Minnesota. I know you. We've hooked up a couple of times before. or we have a good relationship.

Like, they're just really good, man. I don't know what to tell you. They're really good, but like, I don't know. What's the vibe around the team like now? Do they need an upgrade? Do they feel this Alexander Walker void? Or is this Bones thing starting to become the answer? Yeah, I mean, to your point, Zach,

I think one of the reasons that they have been under the radar for most of the year is that they did not make a flashy move in the offseason. They didn't kind of make a big trade or make a big signing that got everyone excited. They, you know, Nikkela Alexander Walker left for Atlanta and they just kind of wanted to improve from within, stay under that second apron. And so it's not exciting in it of itself with the roster tinkering or anything like that. It's all much the same team that was coming back. And I will say that so far, it's been a team that plays poorly against bad teams or mediocre teams and then plays really well against the better team. and they have had the vibe all season so far of,

hey, we've been to the Western Conference Finals a couple of years in a row. We're just going to kind of muddle through the regular season and wake us up when the playoffs get here. And that's a dangerous position to take in the West, but they have so much talent, and they are starting to come around, especially in the fourth quarters. They have the number two defensive rating in the fourth quarters.

They are figuring things out that way. Rudy Gobert is, a presence not only defensively but offensively is being more and more involved. Ant has been incredibly good outside of a few like tough shooting nights. And they are 19 and 10 and aunt has missed, you know, some good amount of time. So they are weight, they need, you know, there's a lot of talk about point guard. And I think that they are absolutely looking for possibilities at point guard. But they also do think that at 19 and 10, they have a few more weeks to just see if this

Bones Highland thing is real. See, you know, if the Aunt Devenzo backcourt is good enough from a ball handling, you know, turnover standpoint to do it. And so they're being kind of patient with it, even if, you know, some of their performances do not meet the eye test of the record. It feels like a team that is just like waiting to be challenged and pushed. And they were challenged and pushed again on Friday night against Oklahoma City. And they responded emphatically and kind of delivered a statement win. Well, they're going to be challenging. challenged and pushed in the next five days because they play the Knicks at home tomorrow in the Cat Randall Bowl. I think it should just be called the Cat Bowl. The cat's the headliner.

Yeah, for sure. And then at Denver on Christmas, I mean, just what a holiday gift. That matchup always is. Look, I just, I made, this is one of those ones where I wonder, am I just the one missing it. And so I hear all this, not all this, but consternation about do we need to start a traditional point guard next to, next to Ant. Like Conley's not going to reclaim that starting spot, although he came back yesterday against Milwaukee and looked and looked good and played important minutes, started the second half in place of Jada McDaniels. By the way, what was the word on the Jada McDaniels hip injury after the team? Left hip pain. I don't, it's not believed to be like super serious, I don't think, but he's got some examinations to do and and all of that. But I, right now it's

trending toward a short-term thing. Okay, so, so, I hear all this, you know, ball handling, ants, a point guard now. I really like that five-man lineup. Yes. And when I watch it, I don't really feel like it needs a whole lot of anything. I looked up the numbers this morning. It's plus 63 in 264 minutes. I'm talking DeVincenzo and Jaden, Randall, Gobert.

I think the point ant experiment has been a resounding success precisely because he's not forcing it at all. He's making the simple play you blitz me. I'm just going to kick it over here. Let the machine move. Randall is sort of like a point power forward kind of secondary ball handler in that sense. And I just, I don't think there are a lot of solutions to this

that I find appealing that involve less Dante DiVincenzo. That dude is a freaking winner. He defends really hard. He defends really hard because of how versatile Jaden and Ann are defensively, you can protect him a little bit on that end from the worst matchups. He's an elite three-point shooter. He's a ball mover. He's a rebounder. The guy just makes winning – it's a cliche.

He makes winning plays all the time. John, I might be missing something. Maybe it's only certain matchups where it manifests itself against the defense like Oklahoma City or something. I don't watch that specific five-man lineup play and think, boy, they really need another. ball handler now. That doesn't mean that they don't miss Alexander Walker and that the bench lineups maybe need a little juice here and there. Am I missing a problem? No, no, I would say this. Like, you're totally right about that five-man unit. And I agree with you, and I have agreed with you for a while on point ant because like, you know, I think that they're,

the possibility of turn, when you look at this team, there's a lot of people who say, you need Chris Paul. You need Mike Conley when he's younger. Those guys aren't there anymore. That's not what this game is about now. It is about putting the ball in the hands of your best player and having him have the ball in crunch time. And he is making good decisions. He's not Luca yet. He's not James Harden yet in that way. But he has made incredible strides in being able to diagnose defenses, make the right pass, get open shots. And to your point about Devencenzo, I think that any sort of trade for a point guardy player, whether, you know, put Kobe White in there, put Shruder put, you know, any of these guys in that you might want to go get, you probably have to

give up Devin Chenzhou to do it. And I don't think I want to do it. The way that he's shooting, but also, Zach, this is a team that has been a little bit passive in its worst stretches. And Devin Chenzo is the red-haired fiery guy. Like, he gets in and he sticks his nose in. He'll fight someone like you did in Detroit last, against Detroit last year. He'll, you'll get to reflections, he'll get blocks at the rim. He is gritty and he does winning things, second effort things that I would just be really hesitant to part with. Right now, their biggest issue, I think, is if Nas Reid is having a rough night,

their bench scoring is typically terrible. That's why they need to get Terrence Shannon, Jr. going. He was hurt earlier in the season. He hasn't really found his guru. Three-threes last night against the bucks. I was like, I just, I look at him. He had some pop in the playoffs last year.

His size, now they need to get him to defend harder and with more focus and more consistency because he has the ability to do that. He just passes the playoffs I test to me. And I'm not asking a lot for him, but make enough open threes, defend, rebound. Like, he should be able to do that. Yeah, he's left hand dominant right now. Anything with the right hand just doesn't work, which is being scouted a little bit and being exploited.

But you're right, he's just a bowling ball. And he gets to the rim and he is explosive. He gets out in transition better than anyone on this team. So if they can get him going, and if Bones Highland is a real thing as a score dynamic kind of player gives you 12 points and 10 minutes off the bench type of a guy, then they're set, really. They do miss Alexander Walker's perimeter defense for sure. They miss his timely shot making, but they can make it up with Shannon and Bones if those guys find some consistency down the stretch. And I don't think that's an impossible goal to have.

So I think that they're going to be patient and pragmatic. They're going to keep looking at things. But Chris Finch is a tinkerer in the start of the regular seasons. He loves to just play with lineups, throw stuff against the wall, see with what works and what doesn't. And usually by all-star break is when he really has a good feel for his team. And then they pick up steam. And I don't think that there's any reason to doubt that that's going to be the trajectory

that this team goes on again. Tony Jones, how about, I'm just going to give you an either or because I know you're watching the whole league and you're not afraid to put your opinions out there. How about this? Dante Divencenzzo is straight up better than Kobe White. Agree or disagree? Oh, great.

Completely. Okay. Well, that was easy. I thought I was going to have to, like, Kobe White's got the on-ball creation and all that stuff. I just think Dante DiVenzo on a winning team's a better player. So, I mean, you know, when you're Kobe White and, you know, your ball dominant.

You know, if you play that way, and it works for the Chicago Bulls, because he's one of the two best players, offensive players on the Chicago Bulls, but usually if you play like that, you have to be one of the best 10 players in the league. Like if you play like Donovan Mitchell, if you play like Luca, if you play like Luca in terms of what your usage is, you know, it's one of the reasons why Tyrese Maxi works because, you know, he, he, he, you know, the usage is there. But I mean, he's averaging, like you say, he's averaging 32 points a game.

And even Maxi, you know, does a lot of, does a ton of stuff off the ball and does a ton of stuff off screens. So when you look at Dante DiVincenzo, you can play him on the ball, you can play him off the ball, you can spot him up, you can get him on the move. He defends. You can play him a little bit of a de facto point guard. He scales up. He can guard the one to two or the three. You know, so if you're trying to win games and you're giving me the choice of those two, I'm taking Dante. Well, and the other thing about that, guys, is that Dante is still under contract next year at a great number.

Like, Kobe White is an expiring deal. So if you get Kobe White, you have to pay him a heck of a lot more money than what he's making. I think he's making 12.8 right now. You have to give him an enormous raise to keep him. And this is a team that is flirting with that second apron a lot. And so I think that that in and of itself would be a major concern. In addition to what I agree with both of you is that Devencenzos, the winning player that you want on this team in a playoff scenario. Yeah.

And look, this is, I mean, I'm on Tim Connolly, Red Alert at all times because he's proven he will think outside the box and come off the top rope with stuff you don't expect. It's just hard for, like, I just don't know what any movie is going to be. maybe Nas has five years left on his contract. He's been okay, obviously dealt with a horrific personal situation and is still dealing with it. The Nas plus Randall, No-Gobert lineups are starting to trend toward feasibility after a really rough start.

Conley still valuable as a stabilizer, and they're not going to dump him on a shit team if they train him. They're going to take care of him one way or another, but I think they kind of like having them around. And that makes stealing him, kind of the wild card to me, but I still have to pile up some salary to get a real meaningful player. And I don't know, the Dillingham thing has been a little bit of a mess. But just interesting team to watch, man. They're just a good team.

Go ahead, Donnie. With Dillingham, I'm sorry. The one thing with Dillingham, you know, I've had so many, you know, coaches and front office people say, you know, the Mike Conley point guards, you know, they're leaving the league. Once Mike is gone, once Chris Paul is gone, like, that's it. But you still can't be completely the other way, especially if you have the size of Rob Dillingham. And I think one of the, you know, John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of the issues for Rob, and, you know, especially in terms of, aside from the defense, is the fact that, you know, he still has to come a long way in terms of just running a team.

in terms of getting guys into their spots, you know, just recognizing that, oh, my God, you know, Jay McDaniels hasn't had a touch in four possessions. Let me let me let him get a touch, you know, in this possession. Like you don't have to be, you know, all the way Mike Connolly or all the way Chris Paul because those guys are rare, but you still have to be some type of a floor general. If you're six foot and, you know, you're going to, you know,

safely make it to a. the second contract in this league. Yeah, you're right. I mean, the crazy thing about Rob Dillingham's season so far is like he has been most consistent on defense. Like he gives hard effort. He gets his hands on deflections. They certainly take advantage of him when they back him down into the paint or something

like that. But he's been more disruptive as a defensive player than he has been impactful as an offensive player. And one of the things that is happening right now is Chris Finch is really leaning on him to be a playmaker to look for others, to get others involved, move the ball that way. And Rob is more of a natural just scorer. And, you know, he wants to break you down, you know, get to his floater, you know, kind of have the herky jerky stuff that I think that he's struggling to figure out and he's thinking too much on the offensive end about, okay, now I have to pass. Now I have to do

this. Now I have to do that. And he's not playing on his instincts. And so you're just seeing a a fluctuation of effectiveness from from night to night. He has shown a little bit of a pulse lately, but now he's kind of out of the rotation again with Conley back healthy. So it's just a tough spot. Honestly, I really think that he needs to be on a bad team and just playing 25 minutes or 30 minutes a night and figuring things out that way. It's just going to be a lot harder for him to figure things out with piecemeal minutes

here and there on a team that's trying to contend for a deep. playoff run and even a finals type of appearance. Yeah, I've said it to you before, John. He plays like a guy who knows he's one mistake away from getting hooked. And it's hard to play that way. And Bones has been really good. Bones is not taking crazy shots. He's taking the right shots that emerge organically from the offense.

He's making the extra pass. And he's not a great defense player. He's skinny. He gets hung up on screens. But he's trying hard and he's got length and he's like attuned to what's going on. All right, I've kept you guys long enough. Tony Jones and John Grisinski, dynamic duo from the athletic covering the Sixers, the Wolves, and really the whole entire

league. Both great follows on Twitter, read all their stuff, listen to all their stuff. Guys, I've kept you too long. Thank you for your patience. Appreciate it, Zach. Anytime. Absolutely. Appreciate you. This episode is brought to by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously, but you know what else is? Collecting basketball memorabilia. And that's why you got to love eBay. It's like a never-ending merch store, vintage basketball cards, old school jerseys, one-off fan-made artwork. On eBay, you can always find whatever your thing is.

From our collectibles and vintage cars to designer fashion, it's all there. Millions of finds, each with a story. eBay, things people love. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and need something ASAP? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game, a last minute trip with the crew, spontaneous date.

That's when Prime's same-day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need. delivered to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. All right, let's expound even more on my Vijay Edgecombe love affair with Jay Kyle Man. From the ringer, we're going to do our rookie check-in a third of the way through the season.

I said we're going to pick our first and second team, all rookies. Are you ready? I am ready. Great to be here. So there are. Six candidates for first, at least six, maybe seven, but definitely six with a bullet for first team all-rooky. You can only pick five. Okay?

That's just how many spots there are. So apologies to whoever the six person is. To me, here are the non-negotiables. Stop me when you disagree. First team all-rokey, non-negotiables. Con Cinnipple. Cooper Flag. VJ Edgecombe.

I'm going to argue that there's a fourth non-negotiable. negotiable. Do you have a fourth non-negotiable? Yes, I do. Mine is Derek Queen. That's mine too. So that leaves the second spot, or the last spot, rather, between Cedric Coward and Dylan Harper. For me, do you have any other candidate for one of those spots? I was really thinking about this a lot.

I kind of, I did every which way I tried to match up Harper and Edgecombe. And then I threw Jeremiah fears in there too. He's the seventh one. Yeah, just looking at, it's so tough with rookies because they're not tough, but it's, you really, context just really dictates so much, you know, because it really depends on how, to what extent you're handed the car keys. And I feel like Harper, Harper is so unique in this situation as a guy who was like a primary coming into the NBA, a guy who was probably carrying way too much. And it's just flipped the complete opposite way. If you looked at the way he was used in college, it was just like on the, on the, ball heavy, loading up on him constantly. And it's completely different. And I think it's affected his efficiencies compared to a fears who has been handed the car keys way, way, way more than we even expected. And there's some bumpiness inefficiencies here and there with him. I just kind of feel like fears has maybe, he just deserves a lot of credit, I think, for his production.

There's been some wastefulness here and there. But you also kind of have to get in and go between, I know you know this, but I mean, you have to kind of go in there and read between the lines a little bit and be like, is he being inefficient? Because sometimes the play type efficiency stats we have penalized the guy who made the past because the person didn't make the shot. So you have to go in and kind of watch that stuff. So if he's on a crappy team, I think Fierce deserves consideration for first team. I really do. And I, that is purely a production thing because I love Harper more as a prospect, but Fierce has been great, in my opinion. Well, what we're really talking about is the Pelicans all of a sudden have close to their full complement of players.

Obviously, DeJonte Murray is not available and look like a competitive team. I like the Queen Zion combo. We haven't seen a lot of it, but there, I believe, something like plus nine. I have it in 139 minutes. I like defensively, it's going to be tough, but I like the synergy on offense. I like Queen as the point center and Zion just sort of lurking around the world. wings, zooming in for post-ups, cutting for lobs and all of that, split actions. I like all that.

And fears, you know, 15 points a game, three assists, decent shooting, 48% on twos, 36% on threes, not to be slept on. And I said this when I watched his, when I did my, I know just enough to be dangerous, YouTube dive on him. He's got something in terms of what he sees on the floor and the passes he can make even at his size, like zip, zippy. lefty lasers in traffic that find their spot. Like, he's got, he's got a little moxie to him and some vision.

But, like, all the numbers suggest when, whether it's, you can, Queen, Trey Murphy the 3rd, Herb Jones just came back. They're kind of net neutral. Queen, Zion, those two guys, net neutral. Like, this is about to become a competitive team. And if you want to put fears in that fifth all-rokey spot, that's fine. I got no argument with that. to me, Queen absolutely has to be a first team all rookie.

And that's a huge success story for Joe Dumars. I still think the trade was reckless and could come back to haunt them. But this dude, second among all rookies and player efficiency rating, no appendice first. So I'm just going to say first. 13, seven boards, four assists a game, not shooting it from three, shooting well from two. And the reason the Schengoon and J-word, comps come up, and I'm not even going to say to J-word, is what they all have in common is they're under,

everyone focuses on their vision, they're passing, and it's elite, and Queen's vision is elite elite for a center. It's the ball handling that is their secret superpower. It's the ability to use their size and strength with a competent, safe, secure, crafty handle to get from the three-point line to the rim. If you defend them with a guy who's not big enough, to stop them from getting to where they want.

And that unlocks their scoring, and that unlocks their passing because you have to send help. It's the handle both facing up and back to the basket that is Queen's real superpower. He looks like he can be the fulcrum of a very good NBA offense now and going forward. I just nodded for like 30 straight seconds because you brought this up on another show, and I absolutely agree with you. And it's something I've been pondering a lot lately,

is I feel like we got to this point where you hear conversations about basketball and people are like, it's too homogenous, yada, yada, yada. It's like the style of play had created, I've heard, you know, you hear people use this term, the spatial generation where it was like every younger player was sort of fitting these archetypes that were very cookie cutter. And I think lately we've seen an emergence of another player type. And I don't know if Yokic drove this or I don't know what it is or we're seeing a generational response where the shingoons, the Derek Queens are coming in.

And you nailed it. I think it just solves all kinds of lineup conundrums that we have about players where we're like, you projecting your basketball brain, your equilibrium of like the spacing has to be this. I think it's just that they don't have to outsource the assisted post up anymore. And you mentioned, you mentioned bullying smalls. I think that's part of it. But I also think the thing about Queen is that big guys just do not have the balance to

stay with him for two or three strides, flip their hips, and then he's angular and he'll bump you, whereas, like, you know, it's just an interesting player type, and I wonder if more are coming. And he'll go slow and then spin fast. He's just an a rhythmic kind of player that is, that is, that is hard to figure out. It's hard to grasp. He's slippery for a big guy. He's been awesome. Who would you, like, so let's frame it, let's finish the first team all working by saying this. If you had to vote right now, who would you vote rookie of the year? It seemed clear a couple weeks ago, but the race is getting tighter. I think con really has just been so steadily good. You know, his high points have been pretty good too. I don't want to downplay him anyway.

I would still lean con a little bit. But you also, you know, going back to what we were talking about, like the contextual kind of dings that we give guys, he, you know, Cooper came in and it's been interesting to watch his efficiency sort of stabilized. I had it written down here. Cooper in the first couple months of the season was that like 63.5% unassisted offense. He was really, really burdened. And then when Nimhard comes in, that went all the way down to 46.8. So his life's a little bit easier and you're seeing a better side of him.

I would still lean con. Can I throw one more stat at you? I think I may have texted this to you. You can throw any. You're on the podcast. Throw the stats. permission to throw a stat, sir. All right.

How many rookies in NBA history do you think have shot over six threes per game at over 40%? How many rookies? In the three-point error, obviously. Over six-threes a game and hit 40%. Yeah. I'm going to go out on a limb and get zero. Two have done it. Because I don't think Steph did it.

No, Steph didn't do it. Did Clay do it? No. According to basketball reference, unless they have deceived me. So no, two have done it. One was Keegan Murray. And the other guy is the only guy in NBA history, the only rookie in NBA history to shoot over eight threes per game at over 40%. And that's Con Cinepple. So. Oh, we're including con canipal. So one, not including con canipal. Keegan's the only guy who's done over six with him and then over eight. He took six threes a game as a rookie? Wow. Good for Kean Cripp. This is the third. third time Kegan Murray has come up in a podcast that has nothing to do with the Sacramento Kings. Second in the league in minutes per game. That's how he came up before. I also, I think it has to be con-knipple still. He's just been sensational. 19 a game, 41% shooting on threes, 57% on twos. Oh yeah, he'll hit you with a little shoulder bump and 18-foot fade-away

jumper. He is elite attacking closeouts. and making the next pass. I actually think sometimes he's a little too unselfish making the next pass. Like there are times where he should just drive and shoot. But he keeps the offense moving. And he is, I mean, this can't be emphasized enough. He is an A plus shooter, like A plus.

It's not well in this context or it has to be on this area of the floor or on the move it gets a little shaky or not really a pick and roll, pull up three-point shoot. He is a plus across the board. And he's a solid defender. They'll put him on real guys. Now, they tried him on Jalen Johnson with some success,

but then Jalen Johnson bullied him a couple of games ago down the stretch. But it's him. And then in some order, Flagg and Edgecombe at 2 and 3, Queen is coming. But I think the race is open. And I think you're dead on about Flagg's life being drastically different now that they're playing point cards around him all the time. And I just think Edgecombe is.

just awesome. What has surprised you about Edgecombe in the NBA so far? I think you and I alluded to it on another show earlier in the year. I mean, he's been a little more ready on ball than I expected. I still do think there are some areas

where he has room to get a lot more dynamic. I think, and to his credit, he doesn't do a lot of misguided dancing with the ball in his hands. He's playing off the catch. I swear to God, Zach. There are times where when he jumps into the lane and there's a help defender coming and somebody coming from the high side to sort of dig down on the ball and he splits the defenders

and then sort of does that pro hop where he flips his hips. He looks like Dwayne Wade, man, like in a way that I haven't granted, Wade. And that's not a crazy thing to say because Wade came into the league a lot older. So I don't know if that's the trajectory that he's on. I still think sometimes when he comes around a ball screen, his efficiency from two. Some of that may be Philly spacing when they don't have their full compliment of guys. But he can iron it out and spread it out. But I think with the tools that he has, he's been awesome.

He shot the shit out of the ball. And that has surprised me too. 38% on threes. Only 46.5% on twos. But the Sixers as a whole are struggling on twos. I just could not be more impressed with the maturity of his game. No wasted motion, as you said. He'll play minutes without Maxi, without Embed, without Paul George,

like where it's really his show slash Grimes' show, maybe a little bit of McCain show. And they've been pretty much okay in those minutes, about net neutral, according to cleaning the glass, with him on and all those guys off. There was a stretch against Dallas, was it yesterday or two days ago, whatever they last played. Maxi goes out second quarter.

I think it was second quarter. He scored, Edgecombe scored nine points in three positions. possessions, all on his own. Left wing, ISO, stepback jumper. Right wing, dribbled baseline, spin back middle, turn around jumper. Pick and roll, Gafford's not up high enough, pulls a three in his face, and one, four-point play. And defensively, he's awesome. And maybe by, but even beyond all that, there was a play in that game that made me smile so wide where he and Barlow ran a two-man game. and the MAV switch, and I remember who was involved, but, and when that happened, VJ pulled the ball out, and I was like, oh, he's, now it's his time, he's going to cook this big guy.

And he, and he looked at Barlow, and he pointed, he was like, no, man, this is like, you got a little guy on you. I think it was maybe Nemhart. Get on the block and post up. And I don't know that I've thought of Dominic Barlow is like a guy that I'm dumping the ball to, but that's such a good teammate thing to do. Like, hey, man, you work really hard. You're out a two-way contract.

You defend hard. You got a small guy and you get in the post and I'm giving you the ball. He gave him the ball. Barlow spun just bullied whoever was on him and laid the ball. And I just think he plays with a mentality and a steadiness that is way beyond his years. And 16 a game, four assists, good defense, like, could not ask for anything else. He just played. That's just calling basketball.

I mean, and it's amazing when you watch some guys, some guys just get agenda drunk, you know. Like they have their agenda for when they get the ball. They're like, I like to do this. it's my time to do this. You don't see that from VJ. And that goes to that maturity that you're talking about. That was the right basketball play, whether or not VJ could have scored in that situation.

He made the right play. I've been really impressed with him, man. I think it was Max Christie. He kept picking on. He can really get to that middle corkscrew, his leaping ability, but his touch is great on it. I just think he moves like a star on the floor in a way that I probably bet a little

low on, lower on than I should have. I saw him as more of like a high quality kind of second guy, which he may be that on a title team, but he moves like a star on the floor. He's making all-star teams. Like, that's all-star teams. I'm already booking that. I don't know if it's going to be in two years, three years, but that guy's going to make all-star teams. He has

the thing, to your point about his athleticism. Castle has this. This is a little deeper cut among young guards, but Anthony Black has it. Where they go up, they rise up with the ball at the basket. And a big guy or a helper comes to challenge them and there's a little bit of a collision or something and they're still

going up like they just keep going up like they've jumped off a trampoline where an anywhere else is starting to fall down he's got that he also has you don't get to see it as much because of maxi and bd when he plays he has a sneaky pick and roll game like good hesitation dribble and he has the thing where he keeps his dribble alive in the paint and in traffic to just kind of figure out what his options are, wait for you to make a mistake, bait you into making a mistake. I just could not be higher on him. Talk to me about Flag and what you've seen from him so far. Obviously, he was the consensus, no-brainer, number one pick. There was the, is he a point guard? No, he's no longer a point guard. Is Dallas going to play these gigantic lineups?

No, it turns out Anthony Davis is a center. What has either good, bad, what's notable to you? there's some kind of broader view stuff about flag that I think is pretty interesting where I don't know that I can remember many prospects like this because at the beginning I don't know how much you tracked when he first kind of came on the radar he was a really famous prospect well before he got in to the league but and well documented but he was a like Nerlands Noel level high school like disruptive in terms of like blocking shots early on his his reputation as a player was just like this guy is I'm menace as a helpside defender.

And it's been interesting as we've watched. It's almost the like story arc of where he's headed is. Kind of flipped. A lot of that stuff, maybe it's smarter players as he's leveled up and gone, you know, from high major D1 to the NBA. Players are smarter. You just don't see the volume of chaos that he used to sew. But he's kind of shifted into this playmaking forward now where the decision making is

solid. I think it's good. It's just that he doesn't have the like, I will murder. murder you in single coverage offense yet. Like if you see him getting into the middle of the floor, he's shooting something like 13% on like unguarded threes. Like the threes haven't been consistent even if it looks good. I think that's probably the next thing.

A lot of his kind of overhanded offense in that like eight to 15 range, like just little floaters, little push shots, great with his left hand. I've been really impressed with his chemistry with Anthony Davis. Like I think they feed off of each other really well. you nailed it in terms of the biggest, not question, but the test for him going from wherever he is now to the next level and then the level above that,

which I think he'll get to, superstar level, is can he punish switches in both directions? So put a big guy on him, can he blow by that guy? That guy's going to play off of him and dare him to shoot threes because the three looks a little broken right now.

Even when that happens sometimes, he can still beat that guy off to trouble because he's crafty, he can drive left, he can spin, all that. I think that's fine. And then bullying small guys on switches. I think those are the tests for him in either direction. I think he'll get there. And I just think Nemhart has allowed Cooper Flagg to do all the stuff on offense that he does so well. Put him in cross screens with Anthony Davis and have him fly out of pin downs. Put him in Iverson actions, have him come off pin downs on the sideline that turn into pick, you know, catch it and get a screen and go into a pick and roll.

All that stuff when he gets the ball and the offense is already moving, he's incredibly dynamic at. Yeah, he is. I text to you about like, I'm not sure maybe you were sick. You were telling me this is something I've just kind of been pondering about him as a ball handler is he really doesn't flatten out the way that you like to see guys his size with the ball. Like I always go, Paul George is always like young Paul George. If you go watch him handle the ball, they're roughly the same size. and he developed into the elite three-point shooter and playmaker, I'm like, is he going to be able to get to that level

if he can't, like, get underneath guys? Because he always kind of seems like he's bending at his back a lot. That kind of makes me wonder, but I do think that the one thing that is there with him that I think is going to explode like a fireworks show that people maybe are ready for is I really do think that he's going to be an elite decision-maker passer. I don't think that's stuff there.

I don't think there's any question. By the way, we talked about Castle and Edgecombe. We need to come up with the committee to come up with a nickname for Edgecombe and Maxi, because Vijay Max, I've said, is not going to cut it. And it makes me think like- Talk a shit about TJ Max again. You can't help yourself. They're never going to sponsor.

But I got to tell you, I can't stand being in almost any store. but it's a shame the Spurs guys took Slash Brothers so fast, Castle and Harper, but they really do fit that moniker better than Maxie and Edgecombe do, because they're a little bigger, they're a little more jagged and diagonal in the way that they move. Slash Brothers is just perfect for them. Something more speed-based, I think, is needed for Maxie and Edgecombe, but it'll come.

It'll come organically. I just want to shut this other one down. I just had a thought. I was like, I don't really know that we've had an heir to the. Castle has some like real LaTrell Spreewell to him. Does he not? Is that kind of, I was just thinking about that. I'm like real slashy.

When you said Angular and Jagged, I was like not a great shooter. They seem like the passing is he's already a better passer, I feel like. Spree was more. Score it for sure. Yeah. By the way, Harper, I just, this is a temporary third of the way, fake ballot. for an award I don't have a vote for anyway. I put Harper on the second team

and put Coward is the fifth first team guy just because I had to and Cowards played twice as many minutes because Harper was injured. Harper is going to be on this. Harper's coming for the fifth first team spot, I think. He gets the luxury of coming off the bench, but I do think there's something to doing what he's doing in a winning context

where the games actually matter should count for something. And I just, you know, he's, look, he's only shooting, what, 28% on threes so far, shooting well on twos. The maturity to his game with the ball is as advertised. His defense is like I was high on it, just watching a little bit of his stuff at Rutgers is even better and more NBA ready than I thought. And the shot will come, but the thing that has struck me about him is he's not anything close to a, what should I be doing liability away from the ball.

He's an active off ball player. He cuts, he relocates, and that's exactly what the spurs need him to be when he's on the floor with Fox. And then he can be secondary ball handler. He has great pick and roll chemistry with Wembe. The shot, you know, look, he's a rookie shooting 28%. It's in better condition than Cooper Flags 3, which looks a little busted. But I just think he's been awesome and totally playoff ready. And if you want to throw him on the first team, I think he's coming for that spot.

Agree or disagree with this. I mentioned this to Rob, I think, when I was in L.A., but I think he has a chance to be the best driver finisher in the league by the time he's in his prime. He's extremely creative. Sometimes it almost looks like it's too complicated and too difficult, and I don't know if that's him attempting shots that he shouldn't take, him attempting shots that will become easier as he gets more experience

and more strength and more power, or him just being like, yeah, I can throw this thing high off the glass with crazy spin on it and it'll go in. Tom Crean talked a lot about it. He noticed that he thought that he had some of that seeking the degree of difficulty thing. I guess if you've seen enough young guards,

you can kind of pick that out quickly. I think you're right. When he gets into the paint, man, I think the more he simplifies and streamlines, like I just have a few basic things. We were debating this on Twitter. I forget who the player was, but that's the thing about superstars is there aren't many guys out there that do the,

I'm just going to dance until you're dizzy and make you fall down. Like real superstar scores, they're like, I'm going to beat you in as few moves as possible. And that's something that I think he'll get to. Like, when he gets in the lane, his footwork is so advanced, like once he gets there. He doesn't have to be, you even see with Vijay, VJ tries to go from A to B really fast, and you can see him get to the end of it and be like, oh, I'm not. like in a good position. Dylan doesn't have to do that. He can slow it down and be like, I'm going to reverse. His reverse pivots are just hilarious, how good he is at them in the lane

and get angular with it. So the degree of difficulty stuff I don't think is going to be. I expect it'll go away as he gets older. Who did you give your temporary fifth, first team all rookie spot to? Let's see. I've got, so I went Colin Cooper, Derek, VJ. I'll give the nod to Jeremiah for years for now. Interesting. Coward has been really good too, though. I've watched him a lot. The shooting in the beginning of the year was like, if he's going to shoot it like this,

this is just, and they had such a point guard deficit with job being in and out that he, hold on, I'm getting blown up about pickup basketball texts, in the earbuds. No, he in the beginning of the year

was playing more point guard and doing it, just kind of being a steward of like get us into the offense, not doing a ton of creation. But I was telling the group, group check guys that the defensive assignments that he's taken on, granted he's kind of gotten, he's gotten bullied a couple times or just, you know, veteran whatever you want to say,

just Steph in particular, I remember kind of took him through the blender, but stuff takes everybody through the blender. I've been very impressed with that stuff. He looks, does he look like an all-star to you, or does he look like a, like a starter, above-average starter? Like, is he kind of, can he bridge that gap? I think he will be an all-star.

I mean, it's hard to project guys who have played 25 games, in the NBA and see where the league is going to evolve and what spots will open. I would be surprised if he's not an all-star. I think there's a lot of self-creation that's sort of under the hood there. The three has dropped down to 31%. Look, the Grizzlies have been just wildly inconsistent with who's available, who's not available, what role do I play? He started coming off the bench now he's starting.

They should be over the moon based on how that trade has worked out for them. I put him as the fifth team all rookie because he's played a ton of minutes. you want to put Fears, Harper, fine. That makes us have, we have seven guys then, right? Like basically whoever our five are, and then I had Harper Fears is my first two guys on second team. You would have coward. Harper, I guess, is your first two guys on second team.

So we've got seven spots accounted for. Now it gets fun. Three more second team spots. And this is when we get into the, whoa, Danny Wolf is kind of interesting. Maxime Renault. Maxime, Reynot. Whoa. You're dropping the deal.

You're going with the Renault. I don't know. I didn't know if you knew something I didn't. It's like Yeager or Jemman or Jomon or it's like he changed his own pronunciation. He's in this conversation. Although I don't have him. Sorry Nets fans. I don't have any of your guys on my second team yet.

Danny Wolf. They do the how the wolf owl in Barclay Center because they're looking for just anything to be fun there. CMB is involved. but I will not, I'll let you go first. Give me your three spots, eight, nine, and ten on your second team ballot. Yeah, there's, there's like a little mush burgu of guys who are sort of have popped now and then, and I think you mentioned some of them there. I really think you got to give Ryan Culkbruner a lot of credit.

We're one for one that he's on my list. He's a. What is he shooting something insane? I had it written down. He's shooting something like, Oh, God. He's shooting 80% of his field goals.

80% on twos. He's got one of the highest dunk conversion rates in the league. Like, if he goes for it, he's going to finish it. That seems like a funny stat, but it's just kind of, he has a very advanced sense of who he is.

And I think that's because he played five years of college basketball. And he's not, he's not like a mega disrere. I always, the thing I love about him is he is a really smart, like,

positional wagerer. Like he knows where to hedge his bets. Like he, you know, he's like, I'm not going to reach for that. I know that that'd be stupid. I'm just going to stay home because I'm fucking seven foot two and you're going to have to go over me. And he's just got a lot of wisdom in that sense. Only averaging like eight or eight or nine points a game, but he's been steady. I really like him.

The other guy, did you, are you want to, you got any corporate? No, I just, I just like he's allowing only 56% shooting at the rim, which given the perimeter leakage that springs in Charlotte, that's a pretty, that's a pretty, that's a pretty, that's a pretty. strong figure. And by the way, just on Kinnipple, he's had to do a lot, I should have mentioned this earlier, he's had to do a lot of heavy lifting with Lamello in and out of the lineup, with Brandon Miller, mostly out of the lineup. I'm so

excited that the three of them are back together. I don't have any unrealistic hopes, but you see these glimpses like, oh, a Lamello Khan two-man game where Kahn slips out of the screen, flares out for a three, there's a pan at close out, Lamello hits him, he pumps, he drives, he makes the next play.

There's some fun three-man synergy with those three that I forgot to mention before. Okay, so we both have Calcbrinner. That's eight. Now we have two more spots. Now it gets fun. Because I agree. Call-Krenner's a must. We need some kind of like fake pharma commercial because there's so many pharma commercials on TV now for perimeter leakage, like those symptoms. You know what I just, so we have a friend of our family who's an actress who's been in some of these commercials. So I watch them carefully because I want to see when she appears. And I've learned a lot about these drugs. They all invariably will have weird letters in their names.

Y, Zs, X's, P's, because there's marketing evidence that this is eye-catching to people. And then I know everyone jokes about the side effects and how you have to listen really hard to the side effects. What I didn't realize until I was alerted to this was they will say, like, egg bliss, I think was one that was on some show we were watching the other night. What is it? bliss. I don't know. And it was like, do not take if you are allergic to egg bliss. I'm like, well, this, what kind of conundrum is this? Don't, don't ingest this new invention if you're allergic to this new invention. What am I supposed to do? I don't understand. I don't know.

Anyway, can't go to the ENT and can you, you know, punch some egg bliss into my skin and see if I well up? Yeah. I don't. Okay. Spots nine and ten. Spots nine and ten. This is, because I kind of feel like Ryan Nimhart deserves consideration here because of the stability that he brought to Dallas. And if you watch him, granted, he's not like a major rim pressure guy, but he has brought some sanity to that team that is pretty impressive. He is money from the mid-range, man. If he snakes and takes that little shot from the elbow, the CP3 shot,

And he's a little bit of a, he's got some MF or in him as a defender. There were a couple plays in that Tyrese Maxi matchup where you could see, it reminded me of his brother. I hate to do that. It's such an easy, low-hanging thing to do. But he was battling with Max, and you could see Maxxie was just trying to move him and he just couldn't. So I like Nimhard.

I don't know if he's a starter, if he's a backup, but I think he deserves, I think he deserves it in this class. Also, just because I didn't know who else to put there. I'm a little worried we're going to go 10 for 10 in common because Nemhard is on my second team as well. And look, he's only played 329 minutes. And so you could have you could have the minutes police argue with me. I don't care. If you're shooting 53% overall and 46% on threes and 56% on twos and you have made your team look somewhat functional by your presence on the floor and recalibrated Cooper Flags roll in a way that makes sense.

You're making my all rookie second team. He's a little undersized. He's a little shorter than Andrew, but he's a player. He's a player and he's earned his minutes. Yeah, he is. Now the 10th spot. I went a little crazy with the 10th. Not crazy.

I just, I had a little fun with the 10th spot. So I'm interested to hear where you went. I have a choice here to make. I can either be a coward and do what I was tempted to do, which was to a co fifth spot because I didn't want a big. No, there's no, no, that's banned. All right, all right. These two dudes, I'll, I'll,

just go into my thinking here. These two dudes have played similar. One guy spiked early. Will Richard spiked early in the season and was contributing on a team with a pulse. And then lately, if you look at their minute load, they're pretty similar. But Maxime Rayneau, well, I'll follow your lead here. We'll drop the D. Maxime Rayneau looks like a rotation big in the NBA. He's feisty. Granted, Shingun kind of did whatever he wanted with him. Shingun does whatever he wants with everybody. He was our big, our bully of the quarter on group chat. But he can, he can shoot it a little bit. He's got nice touch around the basket. He knows where to be in a way. I think the Kings rookies have been kind of a funny little, I think we slept on him a little bit. I got Cardwell coming on.

I'm going to give Ray know my fifth spot. I like it. He's been legitimately good. And this subonis injury, which I talked about earlier, is just going to open up even more minutes for him. I don't know what he's going to be defensively, but he's skilled and he's tough and he can pass. And I think I did not give him my 10th spot, so we're not 10 for 10. But if he keeps playing like this, he's going to make one of these all-rooky team,

but the second team all-rooky. I thought about Will Richard. He just was banished for, not banished, he was out of the rotation for long enough that he was sort of out of sight, out of mind, and then he had a huge game the other night. You know, he's going to be in contention for it. I went,

maybe you're going to think this is ridiculous. I went with Ace Bailey. That's fair. That's totally fair. 10 and a half points a game. 35% on three is acceptable. 44% overall is okay. I just, I had this idea of Ace Bailey on a bad team and he's been completely different than the idea I had.

The idea I had was he's going to come in and he's going to take crazy shots. And Will Hardy is going to be like, dude, you can't dribble 7.000. times and take a 21-footer in the NBA, even on this team. And that he was going to struggle on defense, show no interest in passing. And it's been almost the opposite. His shot selection has been totally fine. He's trying real hard on defense. And he'll make mistakes now and then, but he's in the right place at the right time

a lot of the time. He's cutting off the ball. He'll set some ball screens and slip into open space to make a play out of that. I've been impressed by just, he's just not what I thought he was. going to be. I thought he was going to be an empty calories chucker on a bad team. And he hasn't been that at all. So I'm rewarding Ace Bailey. What do you think about that, Kyle, man? No, I don't think that's crazy at all. He's right there in that kind of cluster of guys that were at the edge for me. We talked about how- Was I just wrong about those expectations that I had? Was he just

not that kind of player at all? I think your characterization of him, if left to his own devices, I think that he would absolutely shoot as many times. There is no, there's no limit to him he doesn't have a lot of uh scruples on that front so but i think what will hardy has smartly done is um ruckers just didn't have the talent to enable him to do this all the time but uh they're just outsourcing his setup situations i mean they're running it smartly running him using him as a movement shooter you know um we we did our young core rankings we were talking about he's he's pretty dynamic like he can shoot on them on the move it's just he can't really dribble into them yet, but 45.8% on off-screen threes.

That's not ridiculous at all. No, I mean, you could talk me into that easily. I've been pleased with him. Okay, let's talk about guys who are maybe coming for one of these second team spots. We already talked about right now. Trey Johnson was out for a little bit. Came back, has played the last two games from Washington. I feel like he's going to elbow his way onto one of these teams because he's going to shoot a lot,

and he's a pretty good shooter. I liked what I saw. He's shooting 40% on threes. High volume, not shy. Can shoot off the dribble. Going to get every opportunity possible in Washington. I've actually liked what I've seen from him as an overall player. What have you thought so far?

I like Trey Johnson a lot. Yeah, you hit on it. It's just sort of consistency of availability at this point for him. And their team is weird because they have a glut of similar, you know, perimeter guys who need reps to develop and things like that. And a lot of times that'll add up to a tanktastic season, which is ultimately, I'm sure, what they should be aiming at, but to get a player in this upcoming draft. But no, man, I mean, he's probably, he and Ace were a con, or were probably the three

premier sort of movement shooters. I have a lot of belief in Trey. I remember last draft cycle, I was like, you could toss, you could have tossed Trey last spring onto some of these teams and he could have come in and hit two or three threes now he's got to figure out he's got similar kind of playmaking challenges like ace does so he's pretty strictly a rocket him off movement off actions and shoot the ball but um yeah by the end of the race here i think he's this is a deep class dude i mean it's a great class i was looking back at my rankings and i was like i might have had him a little low or not tray specifically but some of these guys and i'm

like this class might just be really really good and some of these dudes they they just are going to fall at later spots just because of the depth of it you know. Yeah, if you told me at the end of the season, I have Trey Johnson in the eighth spot ahead of Kalkbrenner and Ace and Nemhart. I wouldn't be surprised by that. The guy that I'm most confused by in this group is Joman. It's, and look, the nets are very bad, frisky in a netsy kind of way. And since Camp Thomas went out, you know, They've handed the ball to Jomon, and that's a hard job to have on a bad team. Danny Wolf is like exactly who I thought he was going to be.

Danny Wolf is super fun, super creative, wildly adventurous with the ball, a very, very heady player who can shoot, who can shoot off movement, who can, you can run split actions with him in the post. He's played a little at the three in like these big lineups with Clowny, who's been very good, and Clackston or Sharp. I like the three-four combo of Wolf and Michael Porter Jr. when they're together, that's interesting. Like, he's interesting.

I don't know what he is defensively, what his position is, and it's probably as a four. I think they have not really played him at the five at all, and we'll see how viable that is. But Danny Wolf, check, great, like, good pick for his spot. He's a good player.

Joman is a top 10 pick. He shoots a ton of threes and not very many twos. I just, I'm having trouble. I'm having trouble imagining should I be pleased, not pleased? what is he going to be? So can you educate me a little bit? Because I know you know his game much better than I do.

I mean, you're in the, your eyes work well. No surprise. The ratio, I think when you look at guys who want to have the ball in their hands a lot, the rim to above the break ratio, you know, I like it to be close to even unless you're just like an elite, you know, at one of the other. And he's not really elite at either at this point. He's not really elite as a dribble pull-up shooter, needless to say. His shot has looked good.

He'll have times where I'm like, that passes the eye test. But you're right. It was tilted more towards he wasn't getting to the rim in college a ton, and that has just kind of gotten more exacerbated at the NBA level. So you reach a point where you're like, all right, man, if you're not going to get to the rim, if you're not going to hit dribble, pull-up threes, what's sad about this is that it really neutralizes his ability to make like advanced reads with the ball in his hands because he's an elite passer, man.

He's a great, great passer. So I don't know what it's going to equal out to. I think in terms of how he's going to fit. I just have to imagine that they're thinking there's going to be another star there. You get another star guy who can bend the defense consistently, whether that's, you know, ends up being like Darren Peterson or DeVantz or whoever it is. He's a supplementary kind of playmaker, but I don't know. I think you're spot on.

The finishing, I'm not sure what it is because he's so massive. And he looks like he could get a lot stronger, too. It's hard to kind of make heads or tails of him. right now, though, in that sense. Yeah, I have to say, I feel nothing. And that's like, I don't feel good and I don't feel bad. I feel just nothing. And he's taken 139 threes and shot 35%.

Fine. Like, I'm happy with that for a rookie. He's taken 67 twos. So twice as many threes as twos, shooting 46% on twos. He's taken 19 free throws total in 25 games. I just, but again, the vision is obvious. Like he's tall and he has, as you said, like, we'll make passes. We're like, whoa, okay.

There's something there's something there. I don't know what something is or how it manifests on a team that's trying to win as many games as they can. Like, I know what, I feel like I know what Danny Wolf is. Now, how good he gets at how many minutes he can play on a really good team. I don't know yet, but like I feel like I know what he is. Troy already played. Powell has barely played. Powell has barely played and looked pretty functional when he's played.

Saraff, who's not played, who's been, I think he's been, he's been in the G league. He's had some injury issues. He's got some, his first step is pretty interesting. Like, he's had some flashes where I'm like, maybe this guy's interesting, but he just hasn't played with the big club in a while. Yeah, if we could get some of the nastiness. I don't know if we can do any, like, if we can move part of one player's personality over another, if you could put some of the aggressive downhill energy from Saraf. into Geoman's body.

You were talking about Wolf. I used to call this, this may make some people upset, but I used to call Wolf in college. I called him Ivy League Turgaloo because he just kind of reminds me. He just kind of has some of that in his game where he's a little wilder, but it's an odd team. And back to Geoman a little bit here, he's one of those guys. They've made a bet on really, I said Ivy League,

but they've just made a bet on smart kids. Diomond, I got to interview him before the draft and talking to him. And, man, he's just so conscientious and he's just thoughtful and he's skilled. I just feel like he's going to figure some way to be a productive NBA player because he's very skilled. And I don't think that he's going to just tread water and let problems continue to be problems. I think he's going to figure something out. any other rookies that you wanted to talk about i mean these these are you're you've watched these guys much longer than i have is there anyone else that you wanted to hit good bad and different

um i mean there are guys who've had moments i know boston fans really have loved hugo i think i had it written down here in his and hugo's last seven games seven point seven points five rebounds six from for eleven from three um so he's kind of had some feisty moments and it looks like it hurts to run into him. And I mean that as a compliment. He defends really hard and it looks like, it looks painful to be guarded by him or to run into him. Yeah.

Cion James has been, he's been up and down. He's a, you know, he's a brick wall out there defensively. I saw them, I saw them in New York a couple weeks ago, the Hornets.

And I was there way before the game and he was warming up. And I knew from watching him on television, that he's a tank, he is so jacked that I was like, is that, I actually, I was like, is that, is that Seon James? Like, he is, he is like beyond a tank. Whatever's above a tank, that's what he is. My son is really into Spider-Man and he has these little action figures of like villains and you'll look at them and they just have these like comically big, like lower bodies, like their calves

really big. And I'm like, no one's built like that. And I had the realization the other day, I was like, you know what, Seon James is built like that? He is built like a Spider-Man villain. He just he looks like he could leap over a building. He just seems like somebody that's going to hang around. And then for sure, going down through, I mean, we got to see a little Yakoshonas the other night.

I was so, I was so excited for like my first real looks at Yakuchonis. He's, I don't know what to make of him yet. Neat Clifford has been, you know, okay here and there. Yeah, other than that, Cardwell, another guy like I mentioned, Colmarie Boyles, you mentioned him. Let's see, down through here. I like CMB. Yeah, me too. He's going to have to figure out how to, I mean, what do you see him offensively doing to kind of stay out there?

Because, I mean, he's a really, really clever defensive player. But I need to figure out what he doesn't have the same kind of crafty back to the basket game like Derek does. No, he's shot it pretty well on low volume. You would have to be just sort of getting into a rhythm with handoffs and stuff with their perimeter guys. And that's sort of a clunkier fit for him. The last I meant to say is about Danny Wolf. My favorite thing about him is when he tries something crazy. And I don't mean crazy in a bad way.

I mean very creative where he might be the only one among his teammates who sees it. And then he throws a pass and the past goes out of bounds or no one's there to receive the pass or the past does not get through the seven arms that are in the way of the ball. he just reacts with either indifference or sort of calm astonishment. Like, huh, that didn't work. All right, on to the next one. He's like a little surprised his idea. He didn't bear fruit, but he's, oh, okay, interesting. Back on defense.

I like guys that are trying to make omelets and they break, like, I don't mind if they break eggs, you know. Like, he's one of those types of players. Like, he can be very feast or famine with his experimentation, but he's, you're right. I mean, and maybe that's a case of some of these guys, I think, are going to pop more, the more IQ they get on these rosters. I think Flag is kind of is one of those two, where Flagg's such a smart offball player that, you know, this Mavs team isn't going to be confused for like the O2 Kings in terms of their ball movement. But he's somebody that has such a wide variety of skills. And, you know, maybe when you dial Danny into a smaller role with more skilled players that kind of fit together better, maybe you'll see more of that passing stuff pop.

Kyle, man, nobody knows these guys better than you. Thank you for your insight. Group chat. Group chat on fire. It's been great to hear you on there. And I hope to see you down the line. Enjoy the holidays. You too, man.

Good to see you. All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show. Happy holidays, travel safe. Thank you to Jonathan, Billy, and Mike on production. Thank you to Jay Kyle Mann. As always, thank you to Tony Jones and John Crosinski. Thanks to you. For listening to or watching the Zach Lowe show, we will see you again soon.

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