The Zach Lowe Show - The Knicks Take Game 1 With Stan Van Gundy!

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Zach is joined by Stan Van Gundy to recap Game 1 of the NBA Finals. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show!(01:31) A very intense Game 1(06:23) Wemby's worst game of the year?(09:16) Hart's impact(10:16) Spurs need to make adjustments(13:29) How can the Spurs get Wemby better possessions?(18:33) Spurs should match Wemby's minutes with Brunson(28:36) Fox is a looming issue(41:09) Best officiated game of the year?(44:50) Knicks have sports magic(58:28) Extras around the league Host: Zach LoweGuests: Stan Van GundyProducers: Jonathan Frias and Michael SzokoliSocial: Keith Fujimoto and Michael Szokoli This episode is sponsored by State Farm®️. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.®️ The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.cair, every style, every home. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show from San Antonio. Holy smokes. I know it ended up being a 10-point game. It will never reflect how intense the atmosphere for game one was one of the most viscerally emotionally intense atmospheres I've ever been at helped along by a solid let's say six, eight, ten percent contingent of Knicks fans in the

building who were very, very noisy, dueling chance in the concourse, dueling chance in the arena, twice the spurs opened up double-digit leads and it looked like they're on the verge of reminding the Knicks, hey, you're coming from the JV conference. this is a whole new, a whole new bottle of wax here in the West. And the Knicks walked him down both times, tie game going into the fourth quarter. Nicks go up by eight and you think Derry got control of the game. Spurs come back, take a one point lead, just one crazy intense play after another. Jalen Brunson late in the game, just outstanding.

Nicks get contributions from everybody they win yet again. Stan Van Gundy is here to break down everything that happened in the game and talk about how the spurs and Nicks both might adjust in game too. and then I talk a little bit about at the end, just stuff going around in the league. That's all coming up after this on The Zach Lowe's show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show from San Antonio. Look who's here.

It's Stan Van Gundy. And coach, let me tell you, that was one of the most intense games I've ever been at in my life. The atmosphere was off the charts. I know home fans probably hate the Knicks invasion of their arena. And it was only like, I'm going to say eight to 10 percent, Knicks fans, maybe that's even a little high. But they were loud. And I like in the concourse, I was walking to my seat before the game.

There were let's go Nick's chance that were being answered by go spurs go chance. I thought that was awesome. There were no stoppages in the game until the first time out. And it was just this roaring, endless intensity. The crowd was one of the loudest and just shriekingest I've heard in that. five minutes where there was no stoppages. A fan ran onto the floor. And by the way, all his friends should shun him forever and shame him.

And security was far too polite with him. They should have decked him and laid him out on the court and taking him off. And then we had some incredible clutch free throw shooting when Binyama hits two free throws to put the spurs ahead. Bridges hits two massive free throws and just calm, just steps up to put the Knicks up by four. but to me the peak intensity was Knicks go up 9486

with about six minutes left coach and I wrote down in my notes this is now I look we've seen massive comebacks in six minutes the Knicks just made one at the beginning of the conference finals I wrote down on my notes this is now a must win for the Knicks they cannot lose this game from eight points ahead on the road

as slight underdogs in the series of be a catastrophe and boom nine all run spurs take the lead And then Brunson with one of the biggest shots of his life on an offensive rebound that he tipped out and got back. He tipped it out and got the three in the corner. Yeah. I mean, the Knicks end up winning by 10 because they're just going to end up winning every close game by double digit points to keep the street going. But in terms of like nerves and intensity and just my intensity watching the game, it was one of the most intense games I've ever been at tied after three quarters. Knicks walked him down from two big deficits, one in the second quarter, and again in the third quarter.

And you could just feel the tension in the arena. It was awesome. I don't know if it felt that way watching on TV. Well, I mean, I don't think you ever, when you're watching on TV, totally feel what's in an arena. But, yeah, look, I mean, I think we felt it from the time the Knicks tied up the Atlanta series and then just started dominating people, the fervor. of New York fans. They've waited a long time.

They feel like this is their chance. And you're right, they don't have to have a majority of the arena. They're the most fervent fans in this year's playoffs. And, you know, you feel it every time a game goes on. I mean, you live there. I've got, you know, my daughter and her husband live in New York. And it's taken over the entire city there. We had, we also had a Brunson injury scare, two injury scares, one in the first half that looked like, uh-oh, he goes back to the locker room and he comes back and has a fantastic last fourth, fourth quarter beginning and end in the middle of the Knicks offense dried up a little bit and this when the swears went on that run.

And then he makes an incredible dagger over Devin Vassell at the end of the game. Yeah, the atmosphere is awesome. The fans are awesome. and New York, if they had gotten a split and now they're guaranteed a split, it was a given that MSG was going to just be off the charts in games three and four. And now, politics aside, we have this wild card coming for game three. And let me tell you, Stan, I saw a lot of league ops people, league staffers, the bracing for the president to attend game three at Madison Square Garden,

And just logistically, like, how are we going to get everyone in the arena out of the arena? How long is he going to stay? Is he going to get booed if they show him on the JumboTron? It's an added layer of craziness that I don't even like that game is going to be madness. But we have to get there first. What's your big, I mean, low scoring game, Spurs actually their fourth lowest points per possession in any game this season. Two of those four are against the Knicks. Wembe Nyama, six of 21, did get 13 free throws.

Josh Hart, sensational game. Jose Alvarado's minutes off the bench when Brunson was hurt were like just awesome and delightful and just what every championship team needs a guy stepping in like that when he might not even be in the rotation. But I know we were texting a little bit last night and I know your focus was on a lot of things, but the Cat Wemby matchup and sort of pivot point of the series stood out to. Is that where you want to start? Yeah, sure.

Look, I thought Cat was fabulous on. both ends of the floor. And I thought that, you know, obviously rebounded the ball. He drove the ball on Wimby. He was aggressive, didn't turn the ball over, and stayed out of foul trouble. I mean, I think the big thing is, is to keeping him out there on the floor and aggressive is huge in this series. And I thought it was easily the worst playoff game Wimbun Yama has played all year. I thought he was horrible on both ends, to be honest. I mean, he just, I would say the thing he's got to do, it's pretty simple. He wants it so badly, which I admire, and he's a young guy with great talent.

He got to calm down a little bit. I thought he took terrible shots, you know, was just forcing everything. And I thought defensively on Kat, I understand Kat's passing and he wanted to pressure, but he was never in a balanced stance with any chance to defend and just letting him go by. He just got to still play hard, obviously, but he's got to calm down. And then he and they have got to get him the ball in better spots and closer to the basket. Look, he didn't have an offensive rebound in the first three quarters. And it's hard to get one when you're spending the entire night standing behind the three point line.

And, you know, the three-point shot is a nice weapon for him. But nine-three's too many in that game. He's got to get around the basket. Six turnovers in the game, too, besides his six for 21 shooting. Just not good enough. And the bottom line is like Brunson wasn't good enough either for three-quarters, but then Brunson had the great fourth quarter. And Wimby got better in the fourth until he had the huge.

turnover after so we get a just a stupid foul by de aaron fox with 111 to go to put bridges to the line to make two of them bridges caught the ball in the middle of the floor like you don't need the fouling there just guard him and that was off a double the first real double of the game they blitzed yeah they blitzed brunson he made a good pass but just all he had to do was play so to me those two plays right there really bad foul and then Wimbunyama turns it over at the other end. We ended up being the game. So they've got to be better.

I think, you know, the cap thing was incredible. And you said it. Josh Hart, that is the most, for the level of play, we're talking huge game. That's the most impactful three-point game I think anybody's ever had. And it showed up. Look, I take the plus. minus on a single game with a grain of salt on a single game. But it's to me, last night it stood out. They were plus 22 with him on the floor. I'd be 15 rebounds, six assists and no turnovers for

steals and a block. He was everywhere. And I think he's the guy most responsible for the toughness and resilience. This team has shown in this playoff run. So I thought he was. Great. And let's not forget Shammit. I mean, there were some big shots to just sort of keep them afloat there for a long time. He would sort of disappeared down the stretch. But I think, look, if I'm seeing Antonio, I'm looking at it and going, okay, like, we were bad. And we're right there until the end. Like, let's make some adjustments. And I think there's some they can make. and let's just get ready to go out in game two. We're a great team.

And if we can win game seven in Oklahoma City, we can certainly win in Madison Square Garden. No question. So, you know, I don't think there's any reason for them to panic. Neither team shot the ball very well, which I think, you know, not surprising, Zach. You've been in a lot of games like that. I mean, as you said, the intensity was so high

and everybody was so juiced up that other than Champini, everybody had trouble, well, and sham it, everybody had trouble getting the ball to go down from three. So I think it's going to be a great series. I thought last night was fabulous. And I'm interested to see how they come out in game two. Yeah, 11 of 43 on threes for the Spurs. Although if you look at the tracking data and the wide open shot data, it was pretty even in terms of shot quality. Spurs actually shot better according to NBA.com on wide open threes.

so take that for what it's worth. I do think so that there's all these like mini stretches of games that you forget about. And one, when they missed a lot of shots in a row, they're up 6350 in the second quarter. And in like a two minute span, when Binyama misses a wide open three, they get an offensive rebound, Castle misses a wide open three, then Dylan Harper misses an open two and Champany misses a three off a handoff. And those are the stretches. Like I wrote in my notes, Spurs are missing some good looks here when they could have gone. on up like 16, 18, 19 and really changed the game.

But I want to start with the Kat Wembe thing because I agree. Well, first of all, Josh Hart, the rebounds, the assists, all that. I thought his defense on Castle laid in the game was like unbelievable. He was getting over every screen. And even when they chipped him a little bit, he was staying in front of Castle and kind of standing him up in isolation. So I wanted to give him a little love. Kat Wemby, Wemby, only 28% of his field goal attempts came in the rest of.

restricted area that's extremely low for him. Cat was physical. He was showing his hands as best he could. And I was waiting for that first foul and it did not come for a long time. And like that is such a critical variable in the series with Mitchell Robbins. I thought Mitchell Robinson looked good. He blew the one putback dunk that made you wonder about can he grip the ball. But I thought I thought he looked all right.

If they can get 48 minutes every game out of those two guys and not have to bring in Anadobie at center or Huck Pordy or whatever you're like plan D is, That's huge. But you said get him the ball closer to the rim and adjustments the spurs can make. So how when Minyama set a fair number of ball screens a little bit low, I thought he rolled really hard to the basket for the most part. And the Knicks defense on those plays was like off the charts good. Like they were bumping him multiple times,

bumping him high, bumping him low and rotating out like on the flight of the ball to shooters. I thought their defense was great. So how like give us some concrete. coach ways to get Wemby some better touches? Well, I think the biggest one, and Tim Legler pointed it out on the broadcast in the second half, I think they've had good success when they've gotten him the ball at the elbow, much like the Knicks have had success in this playoff run when they've gotten the ball to cap there from the elbow.

Like, it's tough to get guys, as you know now. It's tough to get guys the ball in the low post. Wimby's not the strongest guy in the world, but they've really worked hard with him on holding his position at the elbow. You know, you see all these. And, Zach, you always get to games early when you get there and you watch all these pregame workouts. And the thing I've noticed, San Antonio during a year,

a lot of times just guys getting shots up. Wimby works every game before the game on holding position and catching the ball, just catching the ball in spots. last night, they didn't go to that, but one time in the game that I remember from the elbow, Wimby can get to the rim, obviously, in one dribble, and he's right there. And then I think that's what's going to put the pressure on Kat. If all of his catches are at the three point line, even if he's driving the ball, number one, you've got a lot easier chance to get help to him a lot more time. And Kat can cushion him. I thought one of the great.

things Kat did. Cat hasn't always been the most disciplined defender. I thought one of the best things he did last night is he didn't overreact on Wimby's threes. Now, granted, he didn't make him, but he wasn't going for shot fakes and lifting up. He just guarded the ball. And I think that's the way you have to play him. I think if he makes threes, he makes threes. But if you can keep him away from the basket. Like I said, didn't have an offensive rebound in the first three quarters. I thought Mike Brown's decision, you know, so many people were talking about going into the series, oh, they're going to play Wimby.

I mean, they're going to play OG on Wimby. I didn't think they would. And I thought his decision was very good to play big on him. I think when you play small, we saw it last night, you know, down the straight. And then in the Knicks comeback, they put Wimby on heart. And Kat just went to work on inside and on the offensive boards. I don't like the cross match. I mean, you can do it at times.

I thought that was a mistake by San Antonio. I thought Mike Brown's game plan was tremendous. But I think if Wimby can get the ball at the elbow and then they can operate off of that, I think they've got a chance to be pretty good. I also think Wimby on the roll, first of all, he's got to screen better. He's so worried about getting out that he's not screening anybody. He had the one illegal screen, but he's got to screen better. And then I think they can look for him more on the short roll.

Anytime he can get that ball in the free throw line area and be carrying it to the rim, they're going to be in good shape. Yeah, I went back and I watched all his screen and rolls. And you're right, he's slipping out early. And you just watch the Knicks defense because like they're, they're getting, the spurs are getting what they should want on that play, which is when be going hard to the rim against the defense that's slightly in rotation. And they got some good threes out of it like Harper hit quarter three off a Fox kickout

and, you know, Fox at a corner three off someone else's big castle got a couple threes. Champany was on fire. A lot of that came out of that action. but the Knicks defense was just awesome. I mean, they were bumping. Like, they would set those, there weren't even staggered screens sometimes. Sometimes, like, the ball handler would have one screener on one side and another, on the other side.

It's like a choice. And the, whatever he would go, the ball handler would use Wemby's screen. And the guy on the other screener would bump Wembe early. And then someone would bump him late. And they just made it really hard. And, like, I looked up the numbers. This is crazy. On Wemby ball screens,

0.54 points per play out directly out of them, which is the fourth lowest number in any spurs game this season, and 0.7 points per possessions, also the fourth lowest number. And he only took like a couple shots out of the pick and roll. So they were not letting him get the ball.

You mentioned getting him the ball at the elbow. They tried like one kind of cross screen for him to get him a post up. And Kat like strung push to catch out far enough that it was a win. for the Knicks. I wonder if we'll see more of those like pin down plays in the corner for him. The Knicks defended those pretty well though too. Maybe you can give him the ball and pick and roll a little bit and get him driving. But to your earlier point, you know, the help is easier.

So it's the Knicks defense was awesome. And I want to flip it to the other end. You said Wemby in your view was not good on either end of the floor last night. And no one, you almost never hear that about his defense. And was it just like the, a little bit too amped up? Like what did what did you notice? Yeah, I want to qualify that.

Like he still was very impactful as a help defender and everything else. In fact, one of the things, if I were, I thought Brunson struggled, especially in the first three quarters when Wimby was on the floor because he couldn't get anything going to the rim. Now Mitchell Robinson did a good job of sealing Wimby off. on a roll late in the game, Bronson got to the left hand. But Brunson got to the rim in that second quarter run when Cornette was in the game and Wimby was off the floor.

When Wimby's on the floor, it's strictly jump shots and he has to deal with the size of the guards of San Antonio. If I were Mitch Johnson, I would think instead of staying with his normal rotation where Wimby comes out about five minutes in, and then I would try to match Wimby's minutes to Brunson's. I think that would really help them. When Brunson goes off the floor, now you can bring Cornette in. I think they could make life tougher there. So Wimby was good in that stuff. I just didn't like the way he guarded Kat. Cat was by him anytime he wanted to be, and I thought he was really overextended. Yes, you want a ball pressure. but with Wimby's size, Wimby can cushion him a little,

still can test the shot and still, you know, disrupt passes with his link. I just thought he was overzealous on both ends at a floor last night. And I think he'll be better in game too. The one thing we've learned about him in this playoff run, when he hasn't played well, he's pretty well always bounced back and played tremendously. I think he's a guy with the humility to look and assess and everything else. I think we'll seem better. But yeah, I didn't think he was good on Kat at all.

Who would you have him guard on defense? Because I was, I expected him to start the game on heart. He spent a good amount of time on heart and slash in his own one man zone on the baseline. But he started the game on Kat and he guarded Kat quite a bit. And I thought the Knicks, like one of the things I've loved about this Knicks playoff run is, they immediately download what you're doing. And they're prepared for, you know, they're prepared for every contingency plan right away.

Like if, if Wembe's here, we do this. If Wembe's over here, we do this. And when they saw him on Kat, they're like, all right. Like, we're going to run a lot of pick and pop and pick and roll with Kat and see how he responds to a guy who's shooting 47% on threes in the playoffs, popping open for three, one of the greatest shooting big men of all time. And they got like good stuff out of it. When the spurs switched, you mentioned Kat would drive the guard.

to the rim and draw fouls and kick it out. And I was a little surprised he was on Cat so much. But like where would you have him? What's your ideal spot? Well, I think you've only got really two choices. I mean, he guarded OG a little bit. But he's either going to guard Cat or he's got to guard Hart. I like him on Cat.

The San Antonio, I did think early in the game, rotated a couple of times when Wimby couldn't get back to Cat. and I thought they did a good job, which sends Wimby back to the rim. I didn't have a problem. To clarify what you're talking about, because I want to take people inside this. Let's say Brunson, Brunson, Cat, Pick and Pop with Wembe on Cat. Wemby drops back to Corral Brunson's Drive.

Cat pops open. Brunson kicks it to Cat or Alvarado kicks it to Cat. And a third guy rotates up from the sideline to take Cat, often a small guy, often Fox. and then Wemby peels down into the paint. Spurs did execute that well. I think that's a super interesting battleground in the series because it left Kat with Fox on him a few times

and the Knicks just sort of went on with their offense. And I'd like to see them exploit that a little bit more. Well, yeah, you know what? But I do think there's always a fine line between trying to exploit matchups, which you want to do, but sort of becoming stagnant offensively. because you're just standing around seeking out matchups. I think what the Knicks do a pretty good job of

is getting to those mismatches organically and just playing them in the flow, which I thought they did last night. I also thought, so I would keep Kat on, I mean, keep Wimby on Kat. I would mix in some blitzes with Brunson. I don't think it's got to be all the time. I think Wimby's maybe smart enough to give him the option to,

I don't think it changes your backline on defense. So just give him the option maybe at times to blitz on his own, throw in a blitz here and there. Now, again, not overzealous to where he's fouling Brunson. I just thought he was so hyped last night. He was going to come out and make five threes. and, you know, turn cat over, and I just thought he was overzealous.

He's got to block that out. I also thought, and look, I think a couple of, I think the, if I'm San Antonio, I thought their schemes were good. I thought, I think a couple of things. Wimby's got a screen in picking rolls on the offensive end. He's got a screen. Because, like I used to say it all the time,

coaching. the I think slipping out early on switches or if people are up to the level on blitzes, certainly you can get behind the defense those things or switches you're confusing. Against drop coverage, slipping out early just makes it easier on the defense. The heart can get over picks. They can do all of that. He's got to scream, okay? I think they've got to get him the ball some at the elbow.

But then I think the biggest adjustments, I like their defensive game plan. I really did. I think it's all in rotations. I think more Harper and Lestie Aaron Fox. I mean, to me, Harper was having a great game. He only played three and a half minutes in the fourth quarter. I was very, very surprised by that. He had 16.7 rebounds in the first three quarters.

and he's much better defensively and they're switching and stuff than Foxes. So I was surprised by that. And then I think maybe shorten the rotation. Look, they've done well with the 10-man rotation. I'm not sure that they really need to play Harrison Barnes or Carter Bryant. I think Kelton Johnson, Harper, and Cornett in his minutes off the bench playing those eight. And then the only other thing I think offensively, I thought the Knicks did a fabulous job. When they tried to run Champany up to set the pick, they didn't give in and switch Brunson onto those guards.

Brunson showed, but again, Champany's got to set that screen and give Castle, Fox, whoever it is, a chance to come off and attack Brunson. and I don't think he did a good job. I think if San Antonio goes back, one of the things they're going to see on their pick and roll game is the most fundamental thing. They certainly, they just didn't scream well enough. They've got to do a better job at that end. But I think Harper causes a lot of problems for everybody.

But in this series, he's got to get more. I mean, to have Fox at 38 minutes in a game he didn't play well. Now, I know he had the best plus minus of anybody other than Kelden Johnson. and he was dead even. He didn't play well. And Harper did, and he only plays 27 minutes. I think that's got to turn around in this series. And then I think the Knicks, they took care of the ball. They did everything right. Shooting is obviously big. The only thing they've got to do is I think they've got to do a better job, especially on the perimeter guys, of keeping them off the boards.

Yeah, Champany is a dangerous little offensive rebound. from the corners. Yeah, Champini had three, Castle had three, Vassell had four. You know, I think, you know, but it was interesting because San Antonio had 14 offensive rebounds, but they didn't convert only 14 second chance points. And the Nick said 23 second chance points. The biggest one being the three you talked about with Brunson late in the game, the fact that he was able to tip the ball out and get that three. So, you know, of it comes down to basic things. Take care of the ball, rebound the ball. Don't have bad fouls and, you know, things like that. But, but I do think the whole, I think San Antonio,

I think Mitch Johnson's going to have to look at his rotation a little bit going into game to what works and what and what doesn't. A couple things. Eight turnovers for the Knicks. And I mentioned before the series. I think the spurs were 28th in defense. defensive turnover rate and the Knicks had to win the turnover game to win the series. They checked that box. The Fox thing is a big, big, looming issue for San Antonio with his extension set to kick in next season. It's not even kicked in yet.

And he quieted the noise with a pretty good game seven against Oklahoma City, obviously the biggest game that he's ever played in the NBA and the biggest game of the season to date for the spurs. Three of 13 last night, for the playoffs, 16 a game on 42% of, shooting. He's obviously, you know, we don't know the state of his high ankle sprain. He's probably not 100 percent, but defensively he's never been great. And Harper was just flat out better than him last night. And I was also surprised by the minutes. I remember before the Oklahoma City series, you know, I wrote in my notes about that series. So very high, the Thunder was,

is a very good offensive team. The Knicks are an even better offensive team than the Thunder. And I remember thinking if Fox is at all limited or if they're really going at him, are we going to see more of just Harper, Castle, no Fox, and Wembeiyama. And like the numbers for that kind of lineup are off the charts. And I was surprised we didn't see more. And the other thing, they actually played the three point guards together for, I think, four minutes last night. They don't do that very often.

And you mentioned Kelton Johnson. Like, he hasn't had a great playoffs. I, eight minutes really surprised me. I thought he would play. I thought they kind of forgot. about him in the rotation in the second half is like just plug him in and see if he can get you a big three or he he defended cat some and wemby could roam around um i thought that was weird too but the fox thing is like he's just got to he's just got to play better for them to win this series

i want to go back to wemby well let me say the other thing on fox though like and i'm a de errant fox fan so this isn't a negative i he hasn't played as well they certainly need him i'm not arguing when changing the starting lineup. But to me, it's pretty simple. It's not a one-game thing. Anything can happen in one game. Certain guys can be better, and you certainly adjust as coaches.

Dylan Harper is a better player than Deerrin Fox in my mind, period. I mean, he's just a better player, at least in he creates more problems. He's better on the defensive end. He's bigger. He's stronger. He can get in the pain. He creates matchup.

problems. I just think he's got to play more. I would think when they sit back and evaluate the game, they're going to look at that and see it. I think Mitch has been great all year and particularly in the playoffs of adjusting game to game. And I think that's one of the things we'll see. Fox definitely has to be better. But so does Vesel, Castle, Wimbunyama. I mean, like I said, if I'm San Antonio, I'm saying, look, we were in this game. We were down to when Fox filed with a minute and 11 to go. We were down two points. And then we had two bad plays in a row. Dumbfowl, Wimby turnover. And we got a lot of guys who are capable of playing better. I'd feel okay going into game two. Plus, you got to think they'll calm down and settle in a little bit. So I'd feel good.

Yeah, I don't think anyone has any reason to feel. I picked Knicks in 7. That was my pick. I don't think anyone should feel, I mean, obviously the Knicks should feel thrilled that they already got a road win in the series. That's huge. Oh, absolutely. Nothing. I thought it was going to be a long series.

I think it's going to be a very long series. I do think it's funny. Like, I do think the Knicks had to get a split to win the series in the first two games, which sounds a little stupid because even if they go down. 2-0. They then have three of the next five at home and like they haven't lost a home game yet and all that. The idea of beating wendy four times in five games just seems so daunting for me that I thought the Knicks had to get a split. I don't know if I would characterize even like game two is a must win for the spurs. I mean, you'd never want to fall down 02 in any circumstance, particularly at home. But I mean, I just think these two teams are going to play a bunch of close games. Obviously

the spurs would prefer to be one-one and not 02. Let's take a quick break. because I want to dig into Wemby's defense just a little bit more. The Zach Lowe show is brought to you by Fandul. It all comes down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA finals? Make your call with Fandle. Right now, new customers can hit the court with $350 in bonus bets guaranteed after betting $5 for seven straight days.

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Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there Coverage options are selected by the customer Availability and eligibility vary by state I just think watching What the Spurs do with Wembe on defense Is just the most fun subplot of any spurs matchup, particularly this one when Mitchell Robinson is not in the game and they have three basic choices, when beyond cat and figure out how to deal with cats pick and pop shooting,

when beyond heart and see how the Knicks adapt to that and put wings on cat and their wings since they made this Harrison Barnes for Champany starting lineup switch unlocked their season, huge adjustment by Mitch Johnson, but they're small and cat can eat on the offensive glass as we saw last night, he can post up. I think they could feed him in the post a little bit more. Or third option is, Wembe just sort of hangs around the baseline playing a zone defense and nominally guarding who's ever in the corner

and then you figure it out from there. I thought the Nix were ready for all of it. I don't know which of those three looked best to you. But what do you think of that sort of how the Nicks handled like the one-man Wembe baseline zone? Well, look, I thought they did a decent job. And I didn't think the Nicks were great. offensibly last night.

They weren't. I thought what they did great offensively already hit on. They only had eight turnovers. They didn't beat themselves. I thought San Antonio's defense was fine. I think their problem was at the offensive end. And then I think in the fourth quarter, Brunson, as he

always does, you know, got going. There's so many good things about Brunson. But the thing that always amazes me is he can be having a bad game and he doesn't let it affect him down the stretch. You know, he's not one of those guys who gets down, loses confidence.

I think he almost gets when he's having a bad game more motivated to finish strong. He was my vote for clutch player of the year again. I just think he has so many of those impactful fourth quarters. But other than that, I thought San Antonio's defense was good. like I said, I'd adjust some things offensively, and I would adjust my rotation a little bit. But, and defensively, I'd have Wimbunyama play Cat a little bit smarter. But I thought they did exactly what he said as the game went on.

He would start, no matter who he started on, he would just always end up on the baseline, trade guys off to where he was there. And you can see the impact. I mean, very seldom does anybody go in there and try to shoot the ball. I mean, the one that Bridges, I think, tried to shoot over him. And, you know, I mean, it's just, it's crazy. You just can't take your normal shot.

He's the most impactful defensive player I've ever seen in the NBA. I mean, people talk about Gobert and Mark Eaton back in the day, but they couldn't go out on the floor. I mean, and, you know, and cover, you know, the way he does. I mean, a guy blocks threes and things. I mean, it's incredible. I don't like playing small on Kat. I think he just, I think, you know, you forget what a great rebounder he is.

And he had two key offensive rebound putbacks when they played small on him. I don't like it. I'd keep Wimby on him as much as I could. The other thing, when Wimby's on him, Kat tends to stand at the three point line. And that's good. Makes it better for Nick, I mean, for San Antonio on the glass. So we'll see. And you never can stick with one thing all game or the whole series.

You know that. I mean, because people get on to it. And when he is on cat man to man and they do just pull cat away from the basket, the Knicks went right into their sort of flex screening off ball offense, hunting mismatches, see if they can get switches or cuts. And a guy whose name we haven't mentioned it all yet and we're derelicted doing so is O.GN and Obie, 17 points, a huge fourth quarter. and one of his fourth quarter threes was they took a page out of Oklahoma City's book

when the spurs were in that one-man zone. And when when Wemby kind of got attached to a shooter in the corner or was like nominally guarding that player, a couple of times the Knicks just cleared out everyone else to the other side of the floor and brought that player up to screen for the ball handler and kind of made Wemby suddenly defend two on two in a pick and roll. and one of them, I think, was McBride and Shamet in the fourth quarter. Wembe was on Shamit. And Shammit, like, fake roll to the basket.

And then Moon walked back to the three point arc. And Wembe got a little confused and Deuce turned the corner and hit Ananoby for a three. I thought that was a smart little counter. But I liked the way the Spurs defense looked with Wembe kind of playing his own. And that four-minute stretch where it went from 94-86 Knicks to 95-94 Spurs, there were just a bunch of possessions where the Knicks were just kind of running in circles. Like nobody wanted to shoot and then someone would be like, I guess I got to take a mid-range jumper. Yeah.

Well, and that's why to me, if you're San Antonio, I don't want, I want to play almost no Brunson minutes with Wimby on the bench. I thought he just, you and I were texting during the game. I thought he just that second quarter Brunson got going a little bit and it was with Cornette in the game. play cornet when brunson's out of the game you can defend the rest of those guys without him and match wimby's minutes to to brunson's would probably be my biggest adjustment coaching wise if i were if i were san antonio all in all just a massively enjoyable game to be at other than the stupid fan who ran on the floor and again i hope hope all his friends and family shun him for months on end and publicly shame him for being an

idiot. The shirts were awesome. Apologies to Bill Simmons. I love the Fiesta shirts. Atmospheric was great. Knicks fans hung around after the game. We're going crazy. And by the way, there was a, look, I'm not going to, it's not a, it wasn't a lot, but we

were sitting on press row. Ian Begley was to my right and Chris Mannix was to my left, right under where Barkley was. and when the Knicks were up by six with whatever 30 seconds left and then they had to foul in an OB. People were walking for the exits, just some, not a decent amount. And I'm like, of all fan bases, like the Ray Allen shot was against you. Never. And we all left. That was a closer game.

It's the finals. Anything can happen. You can't leave until the game's over. I mean, the Ray Allen game should have caught Spurs fans at back in the day. I'll tell you one other thing, and this is very rare. In fact, God, I don't know if I've ever done this in an analysis of a game, but it really stood out to me. That was the best officiated playoff game of the year.

Everyone agrees on this. Why did you like it? It's hard for me when I'm at the game to notice all the intricacies. Yeah. You know what stood out to me is the fact that I wasn't ever focused on calls, ever at any. point in a game where I was like, oh my God, that's a foul. Oh, my God. They're letting them I just, you know, they say, I mean, the cliche is if you don't notice them, they're doing a great job. And that's pretty much how it was. I thought, you know, they didn't overreact to things.

You know, I just thought Scott Foster, James Capers, Sean Wright, I've had issues with the officiating at times in the playoffs this year. But, I, I just thought, Scott Foster, James Capers, Sean Wright, I've had issues with, I thought they did a fabulous job last night. I don't think either team can have any gripes. Brunson, of course, the one where Cornett stepped on his foot, thought he got fouled. You watch the replay three times, clearly not a foul. You know, they did a good job on it. I just, I thought they handled things very, very well, and it made the game enjoyable to watch.

I thought they had a good balance. they let guys play but not ridiculously. I didn't see a lot of like ridiculous contact where I thought people got away with stuff. Yeah, they did a super job. I didn't think like I'm watching like a hawk every time Kat's involved in any action, whether it's getting around a screen defending Wembe one-on-one. Like I didn't think they let him off the hook on any sort of fouls that should have been called. I think he defended honestly with showed his hands was physical and avoided fouls.

Yeah, his third foul to me was a bad one. Wimby in the lane, that's the only time he reached down, you know, and that's a hard thing. You know, Bob McAdoo, when I worked with him in Miami, it's something that I have carried with me throughout my entire coaching career. Bob McAdoo said big guys should never get a foul below their shoulders. And I really, really like that. Like if you're going to get a foul as a big guy,

it's contestant a shot up at the rim. and you know, you get a foul, maybe an over-the-back going for the rebound, things like that, but you're not going to play at a guards level and get a foul. And I thought Kat did a great job of that last night, other than the one play. Third quarter, I think.

He got his third foul. He reached down on him. But, you know, over the course of the game, if he stays that disciplined, now the key will be if Wimby goes on a run and the ball's going in the ball's going in the ball, basket. You know, it's pretty easy to stay disciplined when a guy is shooting six for 21 because you're not getting scored on. But if Rimby makes four in a row, which certainly he's going to do

at some point in this series, now do you panic and foul? I think that's going to be the challenge for Kat is to stay disciplined and just realize guys are going to make some shots. Don't lose your discipline. That's going to be his challenge. And the big challenge with the Knicks, coaches go through it all the time. The Knicks have been great with it in the playoffs so far. But, you know, there's that tendency when you get game one on the road to like, okay, we did our job. We took back home court and you're just not as ready to go in game two. That's going to be the challenge on Friday night. I don't expect any letdown from them. Now, history says the Spurs win game two. Home favorites that lose game one tend to win game two often by a lot. I think the Knicks will play well and hungry in

game two. I was telling people before the game, I have receipts in my text messages and people can, you know, who I talked to. I didn't, I wasn't worried about the rust factor in game one for them either. I thought they would come out and play a good game and they played well enough to win. Look, I mean, it sounds corny. I said it when I picked the Knicks to win the series and I don't know if they're going to win. It's going to be a long series. The Spurs have the best player, etc. I think they've found some sports magic in the last month. Like there, there's a real, like, magical alchemy going on and it has sustained all the little trends, all the little adjustments, all the little sacrifices that you just know it when you see it and they add up to something

have sustained game to game. They've sustained long layoffs. I think I just don't, if I were the Spurs, if I were a Spurs fan, I would just not bank on the Knicks playing a letdown game or a bad game in game two. I think they've won 12 games in a row. I think a little bit of sports magic is happening right now. And I can't really explain it completely, but the Knicks are just on another level. I expect this to be a super long, super competitive series. The last thing I wanted to do with you before you go in your perspective is uniquely valuable. Rick Adelman passed away this week. And I've always thought, you know, we all loved those King's teams that he coached and the corner offense in Minnesota and everywhere else in Portland and everywhere else he was, that he was like wildly

underrated. I remember the first time I met David Adelman for a coffee way back years and years ago. We talked about his dad and how I thought, I think there should be a little bit more Hall of Fame momentum for him. He's got a ton of wins. He's an offensive innovator. And then he get into the Hall of Fame. I just want to give you the floor as a coach. Like, I know you didn't know Rick well, but I just thought he was chronically because he didn't win a title as a head coach, one of the most underrated coaches in basketball history. And I'm glad he got his due. And I just condolences. to the Adam and family.

Absolutely. Condolences to the family. And I agree with you. I think even being in the Hall of Fame, he was underrated. But I think especially as an innovator, I think when you look at the modern game, probably the coach that gets the most credit

for bringing or starting at least the revolution to the modern game is Mike Dan Tony. And he deserves that. I mean, the pace of the game and the three-point shot and all that. So taking nothing away from Mike. But I don't think Rick Adelman has gotten the credit he deserves as an innovator. You know, even though the corner offense is a little bit different than the five out that everybody's running, he was a guy who started pulling his bigs away from the basket, Chris Weber, Vladi DeVotch, Brad Miller.

You know, he would always find those guys play through him at the elbow. you can see elements of that and the principles virtually everybody in the NBA is using some version of the principles that Rick Adelman started or at least started to use more extensively in his time in the league and I don't think he's gotten the credit for that that he deserves you know and I think look it was born out of what all great coaches do. You take a look at your personnel and you say, okay, who do I have?

Now let's build something around it. And he had two of the great passing bigs with Vladi and Chris Weber and said, okay, this is what we're going to do. They were near impossible to defend those Kings teams. I mean, near impossible to guard. And we're better defensively

when they got really good than people gave them credit for. Absolutely. was a hell of a coach. He was not, he was 180 degrees from a self-promoter. You know, he was never a guy who talked about, well, we execute, you know, there's the coach. We thought we executed our system really well. You know, that was not Rick.

He would just talk about his players and get from game to game. Yeah, he was tremendous. He's a guy that I have a lot of respect for. I've told David Adelman that several times. And yeah, my thoughts are with the Adelman family, but Rick Adelman did a lot for this league. It's hard to believe that we're almost a quarter century now removed from the heyday of those Kings teams,

which means there is a whole generation of basketball fans who only know vaguely what we're talking about through highlights. Those teams, just as much as the seven seconds or less teams, were like just slapped you in the face with their freshness and their style of play and how much it stood out. Well, and if you take the game today and take Mike Dantone's sons and Rick Adelman's teams, whether it was Sacramento, mainly I think we think of, but Minnesota, Houston, you know, like it, those two guys, almost everything you see, you'll go back and be able to see in one or both of those systems.

and those guys did deserve tremendous credit for what the, what the game has become. Well, I know another coach. I think it was Orlando, ran Dwight Howard, picking rolls, was shooting all around him, Richard Lewis, Power Ford. That team did pretty well.

I don't know whatever happened to that coach, but, but I don't think we, and I say this, I'm not trying to be modest. I don't think, I mean, we got to four out and got more shooting on the floor, but concept, wise, it's always been a pick and roll

league and we were a pick and roll team. So I don't really think we did anything differently other than space the floor. You know, so I don't think we had nearly the

effect on the game that these guys have had. Now, I do think there are some players, and one of the players I don't think gets enough credit and interestingly played for Rick Adelman, played for San Antonio, and then I had in Orlando. You know, guy like Hito Turcalu, who was never an all-star.

I knew you were going to bring up Hado. I knew it. But he's the modern prototype. You know, I think what went through the league, right? My brother and I were talking the other day, if you think about the league, we went from conventional bigs, right? And then we got to more of a four-out. and then people went small ball.

That was a thing for a while. We're going to go small ball to get more skill on the floor. Then as players developed, and a lot of them coming from Europe, you realize, like, we don't need to be small to have skill on the floor. So now small guards are getting harder and harder and harder to play with. Now it's big skilled ball.

And I think guys like Dirk Novitsky, but even more Hito Turcalu who could put it on the floor, make passes, shoot the ball, play anywhere on the floor. That's today's game. I mean, it's fascinating to sort of watch that. John Hollinger had a good thing in the athletic the other day about how the big men position has changed. I mean, it's night and day. I mean, Victor Wimbunyama like is, like, come on. As that evolution was happening, and a lot of it traced like the rise of the warriors and the decline of the post up and all that, is it, is that was happening.

I would always say, skilled size is the end game of all of this. Absolutely. And that has happened. But I will say ironic and fitting that you're bringing this up about small guards when a six foot, whatever small guard is up is the best player on a team that's up 1-0 in the finals. obviously Becky Hammond is taking a lot of crap for two, three years ago, and she said he's not a dude, he's not a 1A. And I went back to watch the clip stand. And little did I even remember that the next day she's on NBA today,

and they ask her about this, and she doubles down on it. Who's on NBA today with her? Me. I'm on the set. I'm like, oh, my God, I was there for this. And they go to me. And I give this spiel about how, look, I don't think any of these rules about this guy can't be a one A or you can't win

with this guy. are absolute. I said, I think Chris Paul probably could have won the title as the best player on the team. And Isaiah Thomas did. I talked about how you got to surround him with the right people. Is there like another one A or another player? Like if your, if your best player is the 13th best player in the league and Brunson's better than that now, do you also have the 14th best player in the league? And that's now the cat kind of became that guy. You got to surround him with size on the wing. They've done that. And there I just completely forgot that I was part of this discussion. But I think we're learning. look, whether they win the title or not, right? They're facing a great team. Their underdogs are up 1-0. They're three wins away from the title. I think we can just, I think they're close enough you can put to bed. Like, clearly you can win a title with Jalen Brunson is your best player.

I think that's absolutely. Absolutely. But look, I think the thing you have to be careful of if you're someone else building a team is, we all know the line. and I think it holds true in a lot of cases, the exception proves the rule. Sure, absolutely. You know, like Jalen Brunson's

unicorn in his own way in terms of his mental toughness, what he does at the end of games, it's not the way. I think Becky Hammond was on to something. It's not the way to build a championship team, but it doesn't mean it can't be done with the right guy.

Now, can you do it with a lot of small guards? No, you can't, I don't think, you know, are you going to be able to do it with Trey Young, who's a remarkable player or, like, I think it's unique. I think it does bring up one thing, though. The one thing I haven't heard enough of throughout the playoffs, maybe I've just missed it, but both these front offices deserve.

of unbelievable credit. I mean, Leon Rose, he has five starters. None of those guys did he inherit. None of them. He put the whole thing together, the Brunson free agent signing and trades for his other four starters. You know, tremendous.

And then everybody looks at San Antonio. Well, they got wimby. Yes, they did. But in building the team, Castle was the number four pick. The guys ahead of him were Risa Shea, Alex Saar and Reed Shepard. So like, you know, like that's that's a great pick.

Harper was not a, and the other guys are good too, but Harper wasn't a given at number two with Vijay Edgecombe, con can'tipple guys who are good players. Champini, they picked up on waivers, but he fits their team. I think they've really understood fit. I think Cornett was an underrated free agent. agent signing. Devin Vassell was the number 11 pick. Brian Wright's first draft, I believe.

You know, like, and the guys ahead of him were Patrick Williams, James Wiseman, Isaac Acorro, Killian Hayes, Obie Toppin, Jalen Smith. These weren't like given picks. Yes, Wimby fell in their lap, but you've got to build a team around your star, and they've done an unbelievable job of that. Both these front offices, obviously Oklahoma City, Boston, probably the four best in the league in terms of how they've built their rosters right now.

But these guys, Brian Wright and his staff, and Leon Rose and his staff, they deserve phenomenal credit. And obviously both coaches have been great. I love how San Antonio's just leaned into their youth, you know, the move. to put Harrison Barnes on the bench. Not an easy move for a first year coach

to take a veteran guy and say, hey, we're going to give you a much decreased role. Chris Paul started 82 games for him last year. They let him walk. They created opportunity for these other guys, like they leaned into it. Front offices, coaches have both done a great job. And then when you have put those two together

and then the referees do a great job, shoot, it's going to be a fun series to watch. Amen. We have between three and six more games, inclusive left of this thing. I hope it's six. I hope it's an epic one. No one is watching more carefully than Stan Van Gundy. Thank you for your time, coach. I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks, Zach. Have a good one. All right, I just wanted to tack on a couple of things that are not about the finals that are going on around the league. Number one, Orlando Magic hired Sean Sweeney currently coaching for the Spurs in the NBA finals. I haven't really addressed that. I think Sweeney is a very good coach who's going to do a great job in Orlando. He gets pitching a hold a lot of times as a defense guy and he has often been a defense coordinator. Trust me, he can be an offense guy too and has been sort of covertly

an offensive coordinator a couple of times here and there in his career. Obviously, a lot has been made of his connection to Yana Satentecumpo from his time with Milwaukee, Sean's time with Milwaukee. I think that is worth noting. I mean, one of the things that Coach Sweeney has accomplished in his career has managed to do is thread the needle between being, but not thread the needle, but it's rare that a guy can be brutally honest with superstar players and not annoy the players. In fact, the superstar players tend to really, really like him after spending time with him. I think that's really hard to do. And I think it comes down to they respect that he's not scared of them, scared to tell them the truth, scared to what the, tell them what the film

shows. And he's right because he grinds and he's done his homework and they appreciate that he's right and that someone is telling them and that he will also praise them when they do awesome stuff, which they generally do. So I do think it's worth noting. Does it make Orlando a sneaky suitor in the honest derby? You know, that would be an interesting move for them. I, at the beginning of last season, I pitched Palo for Janus as one of the more interesting, potentially, potential fake trades. And then I remembered my cap rules and that Palo was almost poison-pilled impossible to trade because of his extension kicking in.

Well, that's not the case anymore. Didn't have a great season. But I think there's still a lot of shine on Palo as a young player, number one option type, whether he can be the number one option on a great, great team is TBD. Obviously, Orlando disappointed this year. It would be out of character sort of young for aging. aging is probably a little strong. This is only 31 for this front office.

But, you know, once you throw four first round picks to Desmond Bain, and you see that the Franz Palo thing remains sort of eh in terms of a fit, sometimes it's great. Oftentimes it's clunky. I think it's something that you could probably at least discuss internally. Those four picks that they traded for Bain make it a little hard for them to fluff up the offer with stuff on top of Palo. But who knows?

I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with the honest, but we have reached the point where I would be pretty shocked if he doesn't get traded. I have said several times in the last month that if I had, if you put gun to head, metaphorical gun to head, if I had to pick a team, I would pick Miami despite the lack of a blue, blue chip asset or young player or pick or whatever, but because obviously Janice is going to be able to put his thumb on the scale a little bit. But I think lots of different scenarios are in play, despite what Bill has said about, what Bill Simmons said about the Celtics not wanting Janus.

And I said I also don't sense a great urgency for them to get Janus. A lot of people are sort of eyeing them as a wild card in the offseason in general. So we'll see. A couple other things. Oklahoma City, Andrew Schlect and I did a sort of download of their loss to the Spurs and what comes next for them and all the second apron issues and what their most likely path is. And we both kind of agreed that I got to tell you, no one around the league sees them as a Yonest team.

I everybody every GM every scout I've talked to would be pretty surprised if they veered in that direction and that's why we sort of agreed on a you know trim the payroll a little bit one way or another and keep most of the core together including heartin heartenstein either opting him in or a new deal for a little bit less money dort is sort of TBD um try to move up in the draft etc i'm i'm five days two days later three days later whatever it is i'm more convinced than that that's probably the case. I will say there's also a roadmap that a couple people have alert, not reminded me of where they could just opt in Hartenstein and opt in Dort

and cut payroll elsewhere maybe and eat the second apron penalties for a year because it's not like they're in desperate need of making a trade. If their draft pick ends up getting frozen seven years down the line, no team has ever been more well positioned to weather a draft pick being frozen because they have so many picks still coming to them from dead. from the clippers, et cetera. And then, you know, next year, if you opt those guys in, then you can really reset financially when Shay's new big deal kicks in in 27, 28, I think his new, his massive supermax

kicks in. So that's another, another thing they can do. And I will continue to say, I know J. Dub and Chet are not 30% maxes or supermaxes. J. Dub didn't meet the criteria for it this year and Chet didn't negotiate into his contract. I still will forever beat the drum. And they're like the homegrown Max guy. Shea's not a homegrown player, although they got him when he was very early in his career. And Kason Wallace is not going to be a Max player, et cetera.

But I still think you should get some sort of tax slash apron relief for guys you drafted making the Max somehow so that it's not just this prohibitive. You can't even keep the team together. You have to look at all these painful moves when you built the team pretty organically. I will pitch that forever. And obviously a lot has been made about Oklahoma City, potentially trying to trade up in the draft. I would bet that's true. I sniffed around a little bit. I would be shocked if they were able to trade up into the top four.

I think it would take so much that it would be prohibitive almost for Oklahoma City. And I don't even know what offer they could make that any of those four teams would be intrigued by. those four prospects at the top of the draft are so outrageously good and so interesting in different ways that I would be really surprised if Oklahoma City could get into the top four. There is still a lot of intrigue, though, at the top of the draft. I don't think anyone knows who Washington is going to take for sure. DeBanza is obviously the quote unquote safest pick. Tons of Darren Peterson intrigue still obviously around the league. Nobody really is sure like what does Utah actually want at two?

Are they going to be happy with whichever of those two is there? Are they going to do they kind of secretly want Darren Peterson because he fills more of a natural sort of void for them at guard? There's just a ton of intrigue. You know, Memphis and Chicago are probably sitting there like, hey, whatever, whoever falls to us, we'll take one of them. Chicago will take the last of them, Caleb Wilson, Camboos or whatever. We're going to be, we're going to be psyched to do that. I think it's going to be super interesting to see how the intel kind of floats out. Who works out for which of those four?

guys works out for anybody but Washington who obviously is in the catbird seat with the number one pick. I don't even know if any if those teams will trade up or down with each other. I get the sense now that they're probably all in stand pat mode and just see who's available to them. I think it's the top four and the order they fall in is going to be outrageously exciting. And we will see on draft day, which is only 19 days away. And bad news for me, the NBA moved the draft to June 23rd. You know what's happening on June 23rd? Croatia is playing in the World Cup in Toronto and we bought tickets for the game a long time ago. So I've got to figure out how to balance all that, which is going to be delayed. Because I'll tell you this, the NBA

draft comes around every year. The World Cup does not. So figure that one out. But I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you to, as always, Jonathan, Michael and Billy on production. Thanks to Stan Van Gundy. The great Stan Van Gundy. Thanks to you all for listening to and are watching the Zach Lowe show. for game two. I can't wait. I wish it started right now. And we will see you after game two. I'll put up another episode talking about that game. Thanks everybody. See you next time. 21 or over in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-Mye reset. Call 1-888-789-77 or visit cCPg.org slash chat in Connecticut.

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