The Zach Lowe Show - The Thunder’s Road to the Finals, Looking at the Wolves' Future, and Ranking the Entire Eastern Conference With Wosny Lambre

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Big Wos joins Zach to first discuss the Thunder’s path from the 2012 Finals to where we are today (1:15). They then share their thoughts on the discourse around Anthony Edwards (25:07), where the Wolves actually stack up in the West (38:55), and much more. To close, inspired by Bill’s thoughts on the Eastern Conference contenders, Zach and Wos do a full ranking of the teams in the East and discuss their futures (55:33). Who’s at the top? And maybe more importantly … who’s at the bottom? Host: Zach Lowe Guest: Wosny Lambre Producers: Jesse Aron, Chris Wohlers, Oscar De La Luz, and Bobby Wagner The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Zach Lowe show sponsored by Fanduel. America's number one sportsbook has made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game that's right now. Even after Tipoff, just look for the live SGP tab on the Fandual Sportsbook app and build your bet slip. Then sit back, relax, and track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the Fandle app today to make every moment more. The ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit RG-Help.com to learn more about the resources and help. Helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details.

Must be 21 and over in President Select States. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-dash-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Microlabe Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things that with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best tip. Test your basketball skills with a game of around the world. Even better if Mickelope Ultra is on the line, especially since they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets.

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it ends on June 30th, 2026, multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show, the Thunder are in the finals. We reflect on there.

last 13 years from the James Hart and Russ KD Big Three to lots of stuff that happened in between to a dominant win over Minnesota. We got Big Waz coming on, Nick's Pacers, Wolves, Nuggets, and then we respond to Bill by ranking all the teams in the East best to worst in terms of media of term futures. Is Indiana really? Number one, coming up on the Zach Lowe show with Big Was. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. It's Thursday morning. I got a few hours before I head into New York City to see if the Knicks can make the pacer sweat just a little bit, can make MSG rock just one more time. But before we go there, we got to talk about the Oklahoma City Thunder and we got a very

special first time guess he's wearing my favorite hat in the world. Big Walsh, what's up? What's going on, brother? Proud to be up here, man, big fan of the show for years. Well, you know I'm a big fan of group chat. I have called it the best NBA podcasts in the world. I'm a regular listener. I told you that in person at I think it was still Staples Center.

back then before it became the crypt and now we're teammates. It's exciting to have you on. Love the hat. And we've got a lot to talk about, my friend. You ready to go? I'm ready. Let's do it. The Oklahoma City Thunder blew the doors off the Minnesota

Timberwolves last night in game five and it's been a long time coming was the Thunder are back in the NBA finals. From 2012, losing to the heat, the hardened trade. That was a big one. Didn't work out great for them. Some deep playoff runs still in the next couple years.

A couple undone by injuries, including ill-timed Russell Westbrook injuries. The rise of the Warriors, the Clay Thompson game. Game 6th, birthed in Oklahoma City. And then those same warriors, thanks to a once-in-a-lifetime cap-spike, steal the greatest player in the history of the Oklahoma. Homer City Thunder still. Kevin Durant. Then a Paul George trade happens.

That was interesting. We're going to get back to that. Still relevant. Paul George just birthing great teams in his wake in every direction and every conference. Everywhere he goes and leaves behind, there's a great team in the wake. Then there's a Chris Paul year. Do you remember the Chris Paul year? I remember it well.

I remember that playoff series against Houston where Lou Dort had James Hardin in his freaking pocket. Yeah, I remember that very well. You know what I didn't remember? That Chris Paul finished seventh in MVP voting that year and made second team all-NBA for a strong playoff team. We remember the Schroeder, Shea, CP, Guard, Shrio. I didn't remember CP having like that kind of year.

And then they move on. CP3 gets dumped over to Phoenix. The signals are sent. We're actually going into the deep rebuild mode. Al Horford comes in. Al Horford is sort of like banished into a, closet somewhere. Shea, you're injured, your ankle hurts, take all the time you want. And it felt like a deep tank. It felt like a tank that was going to take a long time. Uh-uh. Two bad years. That's it. Two

bad years. There are franchises littered across the Eastern Conference that would kill for just two bad years between periods of relevancy. We're going to talk about some of them later. Those bad years netted two high draft picks. The first was Josh Giddy. If you remember going into that lottery, the Thunder had a chance at two top five picks if the ping pong balls bounced right

for them. There's in Houston. They got none. They got the number six pick, Josh Giddy. Now he's Alex Caruso. And the second one, maybe not an underrated watershed moment, but a watershed moment. The next year moving up from number four to number two and

drafting Chet Holmgren. And my God, the difference between Shet Holmgren and number four and beyond in that draft is a chasm. And then a play in, a second round, and ahead of schedule, ahead of my schedule, ahead of anyone's schedule, they are 12 and 4 in the playoffs with a net rating of plus 11 per 100 possessions, a defense that is three and a half points per 100 possessions better than the number two defense in the playoffs and even better than it was in the regular season. the thunder are back, they're here, and they ain't going anywhere. I just outlined the whole timeline was.

What are your thoughts on this strange journey from not even point A to point B from it was just meandering, but we're back? I mean, for me, it's the Paul George trade for both sides of that equation. I just remember being at Summer League when that trade was executed. And there was just a consensus. Like the Lakers had got punked, Kauai is on the clippers. They also got Paul George in one fell swoop.

Everybody just knew the clippers were on their way to multiple championships. This was also the same summer that the Lakers traded for Anthony Davis. And New Orleans was on the precipice of drafting Zion as well. So they got Brandon Ingram. They got Josh Hart. They got, you know, the Vonzo.

the whole package. And I remember Griff was a genius. He was the bell at a ball at Summer League. And, you know, the Shea piece was very just underrated, man. Like, nobody really cared that much. People in our industry really cared about the picks that they got. Nobody was that impressed by Shea. And I had just started working for the athletic midway through Shea's rookie year.

And I remember I would go to damn there every single's Clippers game. And I remember talking to one guy that works for the clippers And him being like, yo, we think Shay is the next Penny Hardaway And I remember being offended by that I was like, are you out of your mind? Penny Hardway? Like, whatever, right? And that was it.

It's not as if She had, let's just rewind a clock to Anthony Edwards' rookie year. Like after that year, people would be like, whoa, this is a blue chip prospect. You would have to, it would have to be something serious to move him or even like an Evan Mobley, right? after his rookie year where people will call him the next Duncan or Garnett or whatever. None of that applied to Shea, right, when they got him at the time. And he's turning to the best play in the league. He's turning to the MVP.

To me, that's what's jarring about this. It's like how they acquired Shea Gilgis Alexander and his journey from cool rookie prospect. Like Doc even liked him. Doc even played him as a rookie, which is like a miracle. I remember Sam Cassell was working with his kid. every freaking day before games. And now look at him. The guy is legitimately the MVP.

He's been the best player in the NBA playoffs. And he's about to lead them to the, and he's led them to the NBA finals. So Shea as a rookie, well, first of all, obviously the trade got them a million other things, including Jalen Williams via the number 12 pick. And there's more coming.

Shea as a rookie, 10.8 points per game. Nice. Finish sixth in a rookie of the year voting. Sixth. Like, like you said, like there were, and he was the 11th pick in the draft. And they traded for his rights with the, with the hornets, if you remember, it was Miles Bridges. Um, here's what I, no, I, we're all wrong about a lot of stuff, right, wise? Like, I was all the time. I was dead wrong about like, when the Pacers traded Paul George to Oklahoma City for Oladipo and Subonis, my evaluation of that trade was like, I can't believe this is all they got. You know, they could have got more. more, not a great trade for the Pacers.

We'll get into what they ended up getting for the other end of that trade. Here I went back and I read my piece about the Kauai Paul George Thunder Clippers thing. Here's what I wrote. Gilgis Alexander is a stud. I bet on him making multiple all-star teams undersold it. Turns out way undersold it. But I think I'm giving myself a tepid pat on the back for that. Sure.

The Thunder. And then I wrote some other stuff about how much they have. this is a hall for Oklahoma City. In five or six years, the thunder might come out as the biggest winners of this trade. Think about it like this. In a roundabout way, they turned Sir Jabaca into everything they got in this trade. Now, in five or six years, the thunder might come out of this as the biggest winners. Unders sold again.

And that's like paragraph 18 of a piece that was all Clippers love for like 17 paragraphs. but to your point, first of all, I don't think Shea's the best player in the NBA. I still think Yokic is. But second of all, I'm with you. Like one of the discussions I wanted to have was like, I ended up going Shea for MVP. I didn't have a vote, but I picked Shea as MVP.

Feeling great about that. Like there was a whole like, midway through the playoffs, there was a whole like, oh, obviously we all made the wrong decision. Yokuch is the MVP. I still think Yokch is the best player. but Shea has been amazing all year, matched him stat for stat, has been shooting 50% on mid-range shots, the whole playoffs.

It's the shot that no one has an answer for. It's a shot that Anthony Edwards, who we're going to talk about, does not have yet. And it's the reason why the thunder are going on, and one reason, and Minnesota is not going on. And 30 a game, 47% from the field, 52% on twos, good defense, can't hunt him, try to hunt him. It doesn't work out.

and they're plus 14 with him on the floor, plus six with him on the bench. And I just, I go back to like, for me at the end of the day, 68 wins was the Trump card. Like, I just feel like it's still underrated. People like, well, they won a lot of games. No, they almost won 70 games. Yeah. They won 18 more games than the Nuggets. Like, I was totally cool in the middle of that series when it was 2-1, Denver.

I'm totally cool now leading shave for MVP. But to your point, sixth and rookie of the year, people can talk now. Doc can talk now about, oh, he saw it coming the whole time. He saw it coming by way. Nobody saw this coming. Nobody. The Thunder didn't see it coming either or else they would have asked for a lot less in the trade again. Like Evan Mobley after his rookie year, my man Rob Mahoney was like, yeah, this guy could be the next Tim Duncan, right?

Like, nobody was saying this kind of stuff about Shageld just Alexander, right? I don't want to say he was a throwin. He was, you know, in terms of a package of young play. you always want a young guy with potential coming back when you move a superstar along with some draft picks. He definitely fit that mold. But again, nobody thought he was the MVP. And I contrasted with the New Orleans trade

because that's a team who, for years we've been saying, is mega talented. Now, imagine if they had an MVP, perennial top three MVP guy on that team that they would have acquired during the AD trade. It didn't happen. And Brandon Ingram, I would say, had a higher pedigree when he was moved to New Orleans than Shea did when he was moved to

OKC, right? And that's how these trades happen in the NBA sometimes. Like, sometimes you trade for a young guy that ends up being Brandon Ingram, who nobody pretty much cares about anymore. And sometimes you trade for Shea Gilgist Alexander. I was just about to say, if you asked like a hundred casual NBA fans, what team is Brandon Ingram on right now? How many do you think would get the right answer. I'm putting like the over under at 55 and a half. You think it would be in the 50s? Are you thinking less than that? You think it'd be less than that? 30s, 20s. Are you kidding me? I'm giving it too much credit, I guess. I want to talk about the first Paul George trade, the Oklahoma City Thunder acquiring Paul George, because there was a school of thought at the time of the Clippers

trade, the Shay trade, and still to this day, that almost like the way people talk about Polinka acquiring Luca. Like, Sam Pressy just walked in to infinite leverage because the Clippers were so desperate to get Kawhi and had to placate him and this was the only way to placate him and this was the only place to go, Oklahoma City to placate him.

So of course they asked for everything and of course they got everything. You could have done that. I could have done that. It doesn't take a genius to do that. Maybe, maybe not. You know what was the Balsey move? Acquiring Paul George in the first place. That was not like really, when people were

and fake Paul George trades. That was not, I remember I brought it up with Arnowitz on a podcast. I said, you know what is like my favorite wild? It'll never happen, Paul George scenario. And I said, Paul George to the thunder for Oladipo, Indiana guy going back to Indiana. And then I was like, but they'll never do it. It's not a Sam Presti thing to do. He did it.

He did it in part, I think I've never talked to him about it, really, to keep the team afloat in the post KD era, give Russ like a legit, running mate and have some fun and maybe make a playoffs, maybe win a playoffs series. They never did, but they were like good fun teams. But also, I think with an eye on we've got to position ourselves to make the next move somehow. He knew Russ's contract was not going to be the one that made them get the next move, although, of course, they end up stealing everything from the rockets, including Chris Paul in the end.

And it end up being that point, getting that Paul George deal done was an opportunistic stroke of genius and is the under discussed element. in the thunder being back here today. But so, and I got to make a confession about Sam Presti up here. I think not getting Paul George, but retaining Paul George is when I changed my mind about. At the party.

I forgot about that. Like who's like at a house party or something, right? And Nas performed. It was like a whole, it was like a whole thing. But when when Paul George got traded from Indiana, there had been chatter around him that he was dying to go to L.A. Because he's an L.A. guy. even though he's from Palmdale,

which is like saying, like, I put Kipsy guy as a Brooklyn guy, but whatever, right? Like, whatever. Um, they got Paul George and the idea was like, this guy's leaving.

Like, he, he didn't want to leave Indiana to go to OKC, to go to the prairie. Like, this guy wants to go to a big city. Like, that's what he's been dying to do. And when Sam Presti talked Paul George

into signing with the team, which I don't know, I didn't report on this, I'm going to assume he told Paul George, if we, if you want to get moved, I'll probably move you in the future, right? If you sign this deal.

That's what I'm going to assume. Hemming, either way, he convinced this guy to sign back long-term in OKC. Like, that's when I changed my mind about Sam Pressy because I was, I don't know, it's just a sort of way, like, people in our industry talk about the GMs and the GM is just the greatest and the smartest.

And, oh, we love the GM. We love the management types. Okay, cool. And the type of GMs who get the assets and get the this and get the, that when I'm just like, you know, teams put dope teams together without ever doing these kind of deals all the time, but whatever. I changed my mind about Presti when he showed he had the juice to talk Paul George in the stand. I'm like, damn, not only does he understand all of

this, you know, sort of analytical and periical data stuff that everybody loves, but he can do the people stuff too. He can go up to Paul George and be like, this is a good idea to stay here and I'm going to make it worth your while. And that's when I was like, all right, this guy is the best at what he does. And retaining Paul George to me, convincing that guy who everybody just knew for three, four years, wanted to be in L.A. or some huge market somewhere to stay in O.K.C. for extra time and then moving him afterwards. And people forget this. Paul George had his best year ever with OKC.

Third and MVP. Yes. Okay. Finish third. Like, again, these guys don't move all the time, especially as a wing. you know, this isn't like some little point guard who finished third an MVP or a big man who we had all assumed we're being phased out of the game. This is a six foot nine ball handling, you know, creator, score, wing type of player who finished third an MVP. And yeah, he got a lot for him and, you know, change the franchise around by doing it. One of the things he got for him, as I mentioned, was Jill and Williams.

And here's the scary thing that's happened in the playoffs. and particularly in the conference finals. J. Dub in the conference finals, 22 points a game, six and a half rebounds, four and a half assists, 49% shooting, 46% on threes.

Chet in the conference finals, 18 a game, six rebounds, one and a half assists, 57% shooting, 37% on threes. Opponents are shooting 50% at the rim with Chet as the closest

defender in the playoffs. That's like Wembenyama level rim protection. Now, for the full playoffs, their shooting numbers aren't as good. In fact, the Thunder, are shooting 33 and a half percent on threes for the playoffs.

That's 13th. The teams that are worse than them are Orlando, Memphis, and Detroit, all long gone. They've got another level to hit. They've started to hit it. And in particular, their second and third best players, the guys that were the X factors of the year have started to hit it. And that should scare the entire league. And this is why, you know, these guys are both going to come up for extensions at the same

time. The Thunder are going to retain both of them. they are incredibly well positioned to navigate all the apron crap that is coming for any team that's got a lot of talent. It's, and obviously, like, even getting to the conference finals, any panic move,

any, like, trade one of the young guys for Janus or something like is way off the table. It would have messed up their cap sheet. It's gone now. And what they, what those two guys did in the conference finals should scare the rest of the league. And then,

like, I mentioned giddy Caruso. So, you know, Presti used, and he was open about it, used last year as like, this is, this is going to be our first, like, really good year. I want to, I'm not going to rush it. I want to see what these guys have in the playoffs. I want to see what flaws emerge when we have to address. And everyone anticipated the giddy flaw emerging. The Caruso and Hartenstein moves were such smart, like, okay, the era of mystery and intrigue is over.

The era of sure things has to begin now. these dudes are sure things for the holes they fill in our team mystery out sure things in this is a super complete team that is still hitting its upside they're going to be huge favorites in the finals no matter who they play and i mean i don't even know what else to say like they didn't they hit they didn't hit everything they didn't hit shengoon i mean you could they didn't it poku you can go back and look at moves but like if as long as they're healthy and that's obviously a question for every team like it's a pretty goddamn perfect basketball situation right now?

No, for sure. We talked about in a group chat last night, and it's almost like that scene in every Spider-Man movie where he realizes he can, like, shoot the web out of his wrist or whatever. That's what's happening with the thunder in real time, where

you talk about J-dub against Denver. There were many moments where this guy was stinking up the joint. And I would submit that if they didn't get Caruso, who made countless. I'm talking about

series altering shots and defensive plays against Denver. You need me to defend Yokic with our whole season on the line shirt. Like just sign me up, I'll do it.

Yeah, let's do it, right? So without those two signings, I don't think the Thunder as is could have beaten that Denver team, you know? And by the way, like, because Hardenstein and because Caruso

are able to step up in those big moments against Denver, that gets them. over the hump, but guess what? Like, J-dub is like he's now got more playoff experience under his wings, and now he's been able to blossom. Like, if they lose in the second round again, he's got to get that experience next year.

So that's what you got to be worried about for the rest of the league, where it's like it's not just that these guys are achieving stuff. It's like long-term, these guys are, they have this continuity and this collective experience that's going to serve them in a way that they're just going to be a whale of a playoff team going forward no matter what. So long as Chet, J. Dub, and Shea Gilgis Alexander are on this team. They're going to be damn near impossible to be. A couple last things.

And I'm not going to look ahead to the finals too much quite yet because, you know, the Knicks have home court advantage. What percentage chance would you, what percentage chance right now? It's 10.30 in the morning Eastern Time. We got like 10 hours till the game. What percentage chance would you give the NICS of forcing a game seven in this series? That would mean two straight victories? 10, five.

Oh, I'm higher. Five years, it's over for you. It's over. They've demonstrated that they're just not in the, as good as this team. They're just not as good. I'm going 30%. I'm going to try to be optimistic. You really think, Mike, here's my thing.

You got to win tonight. You got some pride. You got to win tonight. You have pride. You got a lot of top tier talent. Win tonight. At least make them sweat. At least make them feel the pressure of game six as the team without home court advantage

and what's loominging game. At least make them just, you know, make it come out shaky? Is it 25, 10 nix? Three minutes into game six, five minutes into game six, Tesla. The only thing I will say is we all knew Minnesota's turnover issues were just, if they had a high turnover series, they were dead. And it's like every time Julius Randall dribbled the ball, it was just like, stop dribbling.

Just pick the goddamn thing. up. It's not going to go well for you. Indiana doesn't turn the ball over. That's one thing you have, that's one box you have to check to have a chance. I will say this. The Pacers live in this like frenzy world where there's just movement. They're just moving around, flying around, setting screens, handoffs, pitches and their randomness throws off every opponent they face. I think the Thunder like that frenzy. I think the Thunder defense is well suited to like, oh, you want to live in a frenzy. we'll live in a frenzy too. Like we can we can frenzy right next to you like that's all I'm going to say.

And last thing on MVP that I forgot to mention and why I'm okay with it. The 68 wins was underrated. The fact that Holmgren and Hartnstein and missed like enormous amounts of the season and Caruso was clearly load managed the whole season. It's not like the Thunder were a fully healthy 68 win team. They were missing key guys the whole season. That's it. Fandule is turning your bets into bigger wins with a parley profit. boost. That's right. Build a same game parlay or parlay, and you can boost your winnings by

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Profit Boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration of max-wager amount. See terms at Sportsbook. Fandle.com. Gambling problem, call 100 gambler or visit RG-Hull.com. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform can help. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breeze.

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Number one, Anthony Edwards, a lot of ant discourse in the last 48 hours about his level of aggression, about when you're the number one guy, you just got to do it. You just got to take the ball into the hole. For the playoffs, 25 points a game, eight rebounds, five and a half assists,

45% shooting. It's like sub-ant expectations, I think. Sure. For the West finals, 23 points a game, four and a half assists to three and a half turnover, 48% shooting,

47% from three. Only took 17 shots a game overall in the playoffs. He took 20. Definitely shot less. Minus 41. when aunt was on the floor plus 10 when aunt was on the bench where like what of this aunt angst do you buy what do you not buy what did you see where are we in the anthony anthony ad words by way

not yet 23 years old journey here in the NBA I I not panicked like folks have to understand not yet 24 years old sorry I misstated disease folks need to understand that there are are no contextless superstars, meaning, you know, LeBron James, peak KD, you know, Peak Duncan or Shaq,

like, no matter the context, they're going to dominate, they're going to elevate their team to contender status, no matter what. Most other guys need to have complementary pieces around them

in order for them to play. at their peak levels at every turn. Like, if you watch these games, they're loading up on end. Sometimes he's making the right decisions. Sometimes you're like, yo, in this moment right here, you got to force the issue against Caruso,

stop dancing and forcing the file you. Right? Like, there's things that he could be doing better. But I don't think this team that was built on the fly, you know, they traded, they traded Carl Anthony Towns because they thought his deal was a little bit too much on the fly and was just like, we'll figure this out.

In the meantime, nobody thought Julius Randall was some amazing Anthony Edwards fit when they did that deal. Let's not to make mistakes. I'm just saying, like, this team getting to the conference finals is a big deal. Ant being incredible for most of that run is a big deal. And I think they ran into a team that was just a horrible matchup. Now, I think Ant could have played better in this matchup, bad as it was. But I don't see this guy. Like, this isn't 2007 where, like, LeBron James could take, you know,

Boobie Gibson to the freaking finals. Like, that NBA is gone. Like, and people need to understand that when they're evaluating individuals based off of what the team has produced. Like, just get that out your brain, bro. Like, it can be an awesome player while also coming up short, not playing to his standard against, again, a 68-win team that built that record on historically great defense.

Now, do I think Ant should have played better? Yes. Do I now think less of Ant as far as a talent or his pedigree? I think that's absurd. Like, this guy is amazing. The fact that he's developed this pull-up three-point shot that I think is an essential weapon for a lead guard. Like, if you can't shoot off the dribble threes, off of pick and roll,

it's going to be hard for you to be an elite, you know, ball-dominant kind of guard. So he has that. The playmaking has every single year gotten better and better and better. Now, is he a Chris Paul? No, he's not, but he's getting way better. And he's doing it in the context of the bigs being Rudy Gobert and Julius Randall, like,

these aren't the dream spacers operating space. Let me figure out, make the deep, put the defense in a bind with my drive and a bill. and all these great shooters I have spaced out. Even Nas Reid, like, yes, he makes threes, but like, let's be real here, guys. Like, the context of what Ant is doing has to matter. If you freeze some of these drives,

whether it's pick and roll or just ISO, getting by Caruso, getting by the first layer of defense, getting by Dort, whatever, the moment he's in the paint, literally, I'm not exaggerating, all five Thunder defenders have a foot in the paint. All of them. And they're like not, they're like on top of him. Now, a couple of things there that are.

And so like you're like, what are you supposed to do? You can't just plow through four dudes. These are big strong dudes. They're walling off your path to the rim. A couple of things that I do think are on it. Number one, he's like a B minus B passer that needs to get up to B plus a minus. A minus. And so like there's one play.

The game's already getting out of hand. But there's like a minute 10 left in the first quarter last night where he beats Caruso one on one gets into the paint. everyone's around him and he doesn't see Alexander Walker wide open in the strong side corner. And I don't know who he passes his ball to, but it doesn't go well. Nothing went well. Number two, in all of these possessions, the crowd comes when he's like 12 feet from the rim. And that's the point I was making earlier about Shea and the mid-range shot. Ant just hasn't developed a reliable long two. He's high 30s every year, which is bad.

and his frequency of shooting those shots has dropped every year. It's like 10% of his shots are long twos. He's going down the hardened path of it's all or nothing. It's three or rim. And I think against the defense like this, you just need different ways to attack the defense.

One of them is be a good 16 foot jump shot shooter who will actually take them. The other thing is, and I remember I talked with Ann on the phone in an interview about this after they beat Memphis in the first round. Or no, they lose to Memphis, whoever. won that series. I think Memphis won that series.

The very first one, Memphis one. Yeah. But every game came down to the wire in Minnesota. It was a crazy series. He probably should have won that series. But he attacked Morant a lot in that series. I remember talking to him, like, do you want to, like, where are you on the back to the basket? Just like, post up, bend the defense

that way. And he was super excited that anyone asked him about it. He wanted to talk about it. He wanted to develop it. And he hasn't developed that really much at all. And I think all of those pieces, he's 24 years old, almost. all of those levels are getting a little higher every year. You talked about the experience that J-Dubb and Chet got.

This dude has been in playoff wars against the best teams and best players of this sort of mini half decade in the NBA. He's going to come out of this series with new tricks, with a renewed commitment to doing stuff, mid-range shots, and better for it.

But the passing is real. The mid-range thing is real. And the other thing I'll say is like, and Rusillo nailed this. There were just too many possessions where he doesn't have the ball and Dorts face guarding him. He just does nothing. Like, he just, like, Jada McDaniels took five shots in the first four minutes of the game last night,

and Ant took either one or zero. You look at the second possession of the game. The second possession. He stands in the right corner the whole time, like, just strolling around like he's walking on his sidewalk outside of Bodega. Just nothing to do, doing nothing. He points it one time. like you go like, oh, hey, you do something.

And it's like, there are just too many possessions. There's a couple where he's literally not on the screen where he gets doubled at half court, passes the ball. And you do not see him again that that passivity off the ball. And I think Rusillo, that's what Rusillo was getting at when he talked about being disengaged on this second possession of the game. That just cannot, it could not happen. And in the first quarter, as the game was spiraling, it happened like every other possession

almost. Yeah. I mean, they scored nine points in the whole. quarter. That felt like bags were packed for Turks and Caicos, it seems, between and the rest of his compadre. So, you know, I'm not going to make too big of a deal of the game five where these guys are down three one. They've been outclassed essentially the whole series. Game four, like down the stretch, they just, they just got crushed. Like, every single thing was answered. And, you know, I'm just not going to go too crazy about it. I think he's proven himself that he is.

a potent, like, highly competent star level playoff player, which is like the number one thing you need to figure out in this league as a team. Do I have one of those guys? Well, Minnesota has one of those guys and he's doing it with Mike Conley on the back end of his career, Rudy Gobert, who, again, offensively, golly, Jesus Christ. Okay. And Julius Randall, who like, you know, after the Warriors series, I'm talking to someone I'm like, they gotta pay this guy, right? Now, after this series, it's like,

they can't possibly pay this guy, right? Oh, we're gonna talk about this, don't worry. You know, like, so, again, I don't want to sit here and make excuses or cope for Ant, but I don't think the context here is so infallible that we should be looking at Ant like he's some big failure in this postseason.

Here's some more context. So he started getting aggressive midway through the first quarter last night. More drives to the basket, got to the line a couple of times, made a floater. What happened between not aggressive aunt getting played out of the game, playing himself out of the game to all of a sudden attacking it? What happened was the thunder went from two big men on the floor to one. And once that happened, a switch goes off in Ant's head where it's like, I can call Chet's, let's say Chet's the only big man on the floor,

Hartinstein's on the bench. I can call Chet up into a pick and roll. And if I get by that layer of defense, it's all guards. Now, they're all awesome guards and big guards, but they're dudes my size. I can plow through them. If it's Hartnstein up at the level of the screen and Chet's on the back line, I just got problems. Like I got, I got problems. And if you double me, there's a possession.

And I highlighted this for our producer, Jesse. I hope we can make something fun social out of this. There's a possession, 745 into first quarter. The two bigs are in. Ant runs a pick and roll. They blitz him. And I thought it was smart. They started to blitz Ant more as the season went on.

It's Aunt, it's Aunt Gobert. And they blitz him. Aunt makes the right play. He hits Randall on the wing who's open because Randall's guy dips in to help on go bear rolling to the rim. Randall touch pass to go bear rolling to the rim. Rudy, what passes for a touch pass for Rudy, it's not going to touch pass. It was like a one-handed.

One-handed lefty pass to McDaniels in the corner. McDaniels, is a wide open three. It's like, what is he supposed to do? It's a wide open three. It's how Devinchenzo and Alexander Walker went bananas in game four when everyone hammered.

And by the way, the wolves played their best offensive game of the series by a long shot. What struck me about that play was, it is exactly the same, minus a little bit of grace and precision on the same floor in the same round as a play that I will always remember.

It's memorialized in a Spurs fandom YouTube video, from the conference finals in 2014 that I coined the word, not that anyone uses it, I called it a spurs gasm. It was when the spurs went crazy. And that play is the same exact double the pick and roller. It's genobly to Mills, to Duncan,

to Dio in the same corner on the same court. Beautiful basketball. Shot goes in, correct basketball last night. Shot doesn't go in. Like, what is that supposed to do? I hope we can put them side to side on Instagram.

or something. It's the same exact play that was lauded for representing the beautiful game 10 years ago, 11 years ago, and now is criticized for, well, here's aunt, giving the ball up to his teammates who can't make shots. Well, someone's got to make a goddamn shot. Yeah, Jaden McDaniels, who

overall shot pretty well for the playoffs. Love the contract. Last night, last night, those corner threes wide open had no shot. Okay? And it was like five or six of them in the first quarter. Like, no shot. Like, this is, it is what it is. We want to make these grand proclamations after every

season. I get it. Like, it's more fun to be that way, to be like, oh, and to failure. He's not who we thought he was. Oh, let's move on from him. I'm good. Like, I love, ants on schedule. I got no, absolutely crystal clear. I got zero worries about Anthony Edwards on the floor. None. I mean, what year is this of Jason Tatum, which to me was the best year of his life is fully realized Jason Tatum where like I know people might snicker but I'm like man this guy figured out his drive game his post game.

Eighth season. Eighth season where you were like oh like the everything that we ever foresaw for this guy like being 6-8 being able to handle it being a playmaker being a great rebounder. Garden Bigs when he needs to garden smalls when he needs to like all of these things

that finally materialized and coalesed happened for Tatum this year. I'm like, this guy's legitimately probably the fifth best player in the league this year. Watching him all year. Sucks that the, you know, that the Achilles happened. Like, this is year eight that happened for Tatum. So let's relax.

Follow up to the Western Conference Finals Destruction number two. I had a coach text me, not a head coach, just a coach, I'll just say, who I really respect, text me after game two when it's 2O. And his argument to me was, Minnesota was never really that good. And then he went on, said, you know, they're not as good as healthy gold state.

They got lucky that Curry got hurt. Not as good as healthy nuggets. Not as good as healthy clippers. They got into the right side of the bracket. They caught a huge injury break in the second round. This was more or less fools gold for them. And now they has it, as you mentioned with Randall and Nas read and Alexander Walker, all these questions going forward.

What's your take on the Minnesota Timberwoods after this? Were they not as good as we thought they were? Or was the, where are we? Again, the grand proclamations, I can't quite go there because, one, a lot of people were picking the Lakers to come out of that side of the bracket. And they housed the Lakers on national television to win the Western Conference. That's a thing that happened. And it wasn't just the TV guys, the mainstream guys. Like, a lot of people thought the Lakers were good.

A lot of people thought the Lakers were going to win that series. they housed that team. I did. I picked the Lakers in 70s. So did I. Right. Now, Golden State, while Steph looked right,

was running rough shot over these guys. Again, it was one game. It's one quarter. They took, yeah, it was one quarter. They took care of business against that team, and then they got beat up by OKC. But guess what? OKC was on the brink.

Game five was on the brink. Lost game six. Like, they could have easily lost to Denver. That's a seven-game, tight-ass series. Two times they came back from double-digit fourth-quarter deficits in order to win that series. Are you telling me, after what Minnesota had been doing in Denver for a year and change, you think Minnesota would have got smoked by Denver in the conference finals? I don't think so.

So, like, I get it. I think the league now with this apron stuff and you're not allowed to retain. a bunch of players and all of this other stuff. Like, it is a matchup-dependent playoff process, man. And yes, they look horrible against OKC, but I think they would have looked pretty decent against the team that damn near what is probably going to end up being

OKC's toughest series. Minnesota has whooped their asses up and down the court for over a year now. So, like, do I think they're, a two-seed level normal Western conference team? Probably not. But I think they're more talented than the average seven seed for sure. I disagreed heartily with this coach.

We texted back and forth about it. I picked Minnesota to beat Golden State before the series. I think in seven as well, maybe six, probably seven. So it's not like I can say, well, they only won because Steph was injured because I picked them to win the series regardless. I don't know what would have happened, but that's a great series. I think either way. And their numbers once Randall came back for the last 30 games,

whatever the series, are on par with all of those teams, like on par or better than most of those teams or with most of those teams. And like there's some truth to the fact that are all of those teams, warriors, clippers, nuggets, wolves, like roughly equivalent? Like could you, are they roughly equivalent in that their universal possibilities is make the conference finals or lose a bad second round series? Yeah, they're roughly equivalent. And it just so happens that Minnesota got a pretty friendly bracket and got to the conference finals.

I don't think they're like amazing, but I can't call it fools gold now. You mentioned Julius Randall, quickly on the future of the wolves. Randall player option 30 million. Nas Reid player option 15 million. Nikiel Alexander Walker, unrestricted free agent. If you just pencil in the player option numbers just for math purposes for Randall and Reed, they're pretty much at the first apron already with $0 for Alexei. With no raises.

No raises, no nothing. Now, they could go, those guys could do lots of different things. They could opt in and extend. They could opt out and sign new contracts with the wolves, whatever. The, the, let's really clean up our cap sheet move is to let Randall walk if he opts out or just let him opt in and expire. Bring back Nas read on some number and bring back Alexander Walker on some number, maybe bite the bullet on. a real expensive team for one year and then Riondo goes away. If I had to bet, I don't know.

Actually, I don't, I don't, here's, here's, I don't think all three of them are on the team next year. I just don't think that's feasible. And just because of the option mechanics, Alexander Walker, I think is the most likely candidate to leave, particularly with Dillingham waiting to get minutes. Is that make them demonstrably worse next year? I mean, it's, it hurts. He was awesome. There's also the Durant thing, which may or may not have been real.

I don't know what's going to happen with that, but that's just my temperature take on the wolves. They're going to lose one of these guys next year. And I guess it would have to be Alexander Walker based on logic is the most likely one. But that hurts, man. He was good. He was good. And by the end of this series, by the way, credit to Oklahoma City, this is what great teams do.

They had the wolves being like, do we just play one big man, which instead of two, our whole identity is we're going to play two of these guys almost all the time. I liked when they would go the other way and just like tweet. weekend and play McDaniels at the four or Shannon all of a sudden can't miss a shot at the four. But it's like, okay, we'll try Gobert. We'll try Randall. We'll try read. We can't play two.

We got to play one. That's what great teams do. That's what the Pacers are doing to the Knicks. They're making them question things that they thought they understood about themselves. I don't know. That's my, you have any thoughts about Wolves future? I just don't understand how the logic of last summer when you moved off of Carl Towns

because you didn't like his long-term deal makes sense to, pay these guys on extensions with raises at their current, from their current salaries. How does that logic hold when you got beat up in the conference finals last year and you did that move? You get beat up in the conference finals this year. Like, why would they be like, yeah, that thing that we didn't want to do last year, which is bring back Carl Towns, run it back with this cap sort of sheet being as dirtied up and muddied up as it is? why is that a different logic now?

Maybe some people will say, well, Glenn Taylor is gone and the sort of up-in-the-air nature of the ownership situation has been settled. And you know what? Let's bring Julius Randall back at 40-something million per for the next three years. I mean, he's good. Jews'riles a good player.

That's how I'm money. Let's play Nas Reid like 22, 23 million for the next three-something years. Now you're paying those two 60-something million dollars to play the same thing. same position. I don't, I don't see how that happens. I don't see how the logic is different this year. Like, I think they're going to move on from these guys. You think so? Yeah, I think so. I think it's like, yeah, we got Aunt Edwards. We can figure the rest out. I mean,

that would be, that would be, I mean, they're, they're not exactly overflowing with trade assets either. So I don't know exactly kind of if they wanted to work some sort of trade where they get back something for one of them. I don't know what they would get. But I think the logic would be just breaking one big contract into two. And maybe one of them is shorter, although towns is the old towns, again, sneakly extension eligible this summer. Right now it expires in 27, 28 for $61 million.

But it's interesting. So something more dramatic you are putting into the world. Okay. Then just re-sign and figure it. I mean, I'm sure one of Nas and. Randall will come back. I just don't see how you give them this. Yeah, I guess it would be I break up Randall's, excuse me,

I break up Carl Towns into two contracts. But like, if you give them raises and you extend them for three years, it's Carl Towns's deal plus more. Plus, like, I mean, you know, is Randall more tradable than Carl Towns if he's making just 15 to 20 million less? Like, what's the gap in terms of player quality and salary? They could have traded him after the Warriors series year. Unfortunately, that's not how life turned out for them.

It's wild being a Julius Randall supporter, which I am. It's just a wild swing of emotions. Okay, follow up question number three in the last one. It's been hovering now for a while. Does Oklahoma City rolling to the finals over Minnesota change the way you feel about the Denver Nuggets, who took them to seven games despite injuries to Michael Porter Jr., who was playing with one arm, and depth issues and Aaron Gordon just limping around but still playing well at the end of that series. Does it make you reevaluate what felt like a disappointing season for a team that, you know,

was wasting Yokic's prime, had to fire his coach and its GM? Does it make you think, huh, maybe they're actually a little closer to being a championship team than we thought? I mean, I'm one of the biggest Nuggets truthers in our industry. Like, I knew, I felt in my bones they would take, okay. KC to the distance. I've thought all year, like, look, get these guys in the playoffs, this collective experience. These guys are going to be awesome.

Like, I guess they've grown in my estimation, like with Porter Jr. being so limited. And with Tomal Murray, like, every other game looking like an all-star worthy kind of player, I guess they've, like, risen in my estimation. But, like, I don't know. Like, I thought Denver was a great team before. that. I thought they were a sleeping giant before that. And so

yeah, I think they need to add some more depth. Like, I don't know that Stroudher is the answer or Pickett or even Russell Westbro. God bless him. He had some beautiful moments in the playoffs. But,

man, you have Nicola Yolkich, you got Aaron Gordon, you got Jamal Murray. You got something and now Christian Brown, you've got a thing that can work against damn near anybody. Nobody has made OKC's defense look average

as many times as Denver did in the second round. Now, granted, there were games where Denver's offense looked like trash in that series. But at the same time, like there were games they were putting up 120 on this team back to back with no problem, right? And, you know, obviously Yolkich is one of the greatest players we've ever seen.

I know people are going to be like, oh, but the rings, but I'm sorry, like, to me, this guy is a LeBron James. He's a Magic Johnson. He's a, he's a, he's, I think that argument is over. Like, I,

I don't know how you could say he's not going to be on those levels. People will say the rings. Well, like, you know, whatever. Like, you need a lot to go right for you to win all these rings. I'm sorry, watch this guy play, Zach. Like, he's one of the greatest players we've ever seen in our lives. Like, easily. I like, watch the freaking games.

This guy is something else. And so, you know, part of it too for me, Zach, was I was in my house all alone. Watching Team USA mount a comeback against Serbia. What I was just sure they were going to lose that game. And, you know, we make the joke about Jordan playing against a bunch of mechanics. Serbia felt like threw out a bunch of mechanics out there. Easy. Easy.

Easy. Easy. You're talking to a Balkan adjacent guy. easy. And they damn near beat team USA. Like, I just think the world of Yokic. And so, yeah, I guess my estimation of Yokich has risen after that series, for sure, dude. It's such an interesting Roarshack test because it went to seven, right? Obviously, that's a feather in your cap right off the bat.

You took the presumptive NBA finals favorites to the distance. I picked Thunder and Six, so the Duggets did better than I anticipated them doing. for the series Oklahoma City was plus 64 and so you're like well that's and there were two blowouts and if you in those blowouts they were plus 75

so that means if you took the other five games Denver is plus 11 like okay that's encouraging and that's like kind of the formula for Denver right like they walk you down in close games and they have the best finisher and they have a championship formula that's how they win I would say like blowouts are part of it

Like being able to blow another team out is a massively important thing because it gives you just a margin for error in the other games that other teams don't have. And like the blowouts count. They count. Of course. There were two wins. And then you just split the close games basically and you end up winning the series. It's why the Knicks are in trouble. They just can never win an easy game.

Every game has to be difficult. And it just like, so you're going to lose some of those and lose some of them in crazy fashion. Game one was an outlier. but still. But I'm kind of with you like, even if they can't trade Michael Porter Jr. Don't even try. And his contract is not going to make any attempt to do so easy.

I just think like that starting five is a real thing. They can go toe to toe with anybody if that starting five is healthy and it was not healthy. And if Murray is is Murray for 80% of the series. I got to ask you about Murray though. And he's the guy that I'm most worried about because they paid the hell out of guy and like is he ever going to physically be 2023 again i think that is the number one concern on the within and without about the about the nuggets i'm looking at his playoff numbers now 22 a game 44% shooting 35% from three like that's good it's good two years ago was 26 a game

47 40% from three that's he can be somewhere in between between those two guys. I just, and, and they can get one ring chaser who can actually contribute. Like not Sarich, not, you know, whatever, like a dead salary. They can't have two dead salary slots in Najee, who's not a ring chaser. He's their draft pick, but, and Sarich. And just the other young guys can get better enough that I don't know if this is pie in this guy.

Two of them can play for 12 minutes in a high stakes playoff game. I think Peyton Watson can I think Peyton Watson should get there I just believe in that core four guys but Murray to me is more of a wild card I know exactly what Michael Porter Jr. is and is not what he's healthy and this was not representative of him and I think he fits well

with Yokic I don't know what to tell you about Jamal Murray he's only what 27 28 years old like he's 27 27 and we're just we just conceded he's past his completely past his physical prime shouldn't be that way Looks like what's going on?

What? Couldn't really even play for like Team Canada last summer. The whole thing was a disaster. Like that's what, that's the thing that gives me pause about Denver. It's like, you know, we talked about bubble Murray. Murray before the injury after the bubble. That guy was dropping 50 on guys' heads. Like that, he was a special player.

And I don't know if he's ever going to. get there physically again. But I mean, I remember arguing a little bit with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, before the series about thunder nuggets. He, he, he thought the thunder would have an easier time with the nuggets than I did. Um, and I just said, like, when they're healthy, and I mean, like, when their guys around yokech are available, they do not get rolled in series. No. Every series is a is, now they don't, they don't, they don't like, they, they, they haven't had enough like, super easy series. They don't just sweet people either. Yeah. But, but, but, but, I'm, I'm with you, like, I come out of this feeling a little better about Denver than I did two weeks ago.

This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to live. Life. Learn more at Adobe.com slash firefly. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever get hit with a plan out of nowhere and

need something ASAP? Maybe it's an impromptu basketball game, a last minute trip with the crew, spontaneous date. That's when Prime's same-day delivery comes in. Get whatever you need. Delivered to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas. Terms apply. Okay, last topic. Bill raised some eyebrows on his pod with Rosillo when he said that if he had to pick an East team just to like run or to bet on for their outlook in the next, I think he said three years, I'll expand it to three to five years. It's now the Pacers. The Pacers have now eclipsed Cleveland, Boston, Philly, Milwaukee, all of these sort of like, in his mind, New York who they're beating and is more.

expensive than the Pacers and more capped out. All these other teams have had like injury related catastrophes. The maybe some young teams are rising, but they're not ready yet. Cleveland is the team that he would pick in the Eastern Conference. I said, well, that's a fun, that's a fun little topic. Let me get Waz and I. And I just want to caution everybody. This is like quick and dirty.

I spent like 15 minutes per team looking at caps sheets, picks out the door, picks in the door, talon in the door, all this stuff. and let's go 15 to 1, like three to five years, worst to best. Does Indiana really have the best outlook? And let's give some of these other teams love. So let's do it in chunks. Why don't you give me your bottom?

The worst out looking. Oh, that's easy. That's super easy. Let's just, can we start from the bottom? Yeah. Okay, give me the bottom. The last team is easy as hell. Okay, give me your, I was going to say,

give me your 15 to 11 and let's do it in chunks, but you do whatever you want. No, but I think this first team is in a league all by itself in terms of horrible outlook for five years. It's the 76ers. Horror, dismay, too overpaid, over the hill as veteran players, okay? One of which will not, cannot stay on the court whatsoever in Joel and Bede

and Paul George, who's injury history, let's just say he's not exactly an Iron Man, right? paying the hell out of them on horrible deals, no value whatsoever to those deals. And then, you know, they got Maxie, who's nice. But again, I think the Embed one, I think there's a universe where a team could talk themselves into thinking, don't load manage Paul George, and they got enough young guys.

And like, let's say Denver got smart enough and said, yo, let's move. Like, would you guys like Michael Porter Jr.? And we'll take a shot on Paul George making it work for something like that? They've sticks around trading for Paul George like multiple times. You know, like Denver, like a team could talk themselves into the Paul George thing. Horrible as his contractors. Joel and Bede?

They're done. They're finished. Stick a fork in them. I'd rather be every single other team in the Eastern Conference for the foreseeable future than the Philadelphia. Philadelphia 76es. You had a different 15? I had Philly 12th. Now again, blink test, blink test, as Bill likes to say. Look, they have Maxi plus McCain plus the third pick in this draft is like at least somewhat mitigating to me the disasters that you just outlined. And maybe I can just, can I hope, I can't even hope anymore. I can't hope that there's one year where

all this. Joel and B. that Joe Bede is going to be good? I can't hope. I can't hope. I can't. said to build the other night, I can't count on him ever playing 50 games in a season again. Like, I just can't. And I certainly can count on those 50 games being perfectly timed for a playoff run where if we get to this round of the playoffs, which by the way, we've never even gotten to the round that's going on right now, I got to play every other day in high intensity games against elite defenses. It's just like, okay, I had them 12. Here are the three teams I had below them. I want to hear where you had them ranked. Washington, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee.

Yes, yes. The bucks are 14 for me because they have nothing in terms of a future and they're inevitably going to move Janus. Like, that's going to happen. Now, if you told me they were going to be resolute in just being like, yo, there's value and actual money meaning gate receipts and just keeping Janus,

being a seventh seed type of team, whatever, if they were dedicated to that and Janice was just like, screw that. I'm not going to ring chase. I don't want to end up like KD, ring chasing in Brooklyn, that blowing up, ring chasing in freaking Phoenix,

that blowing up. I like it here in Milwaukee. I'm a lifelong buck. I'm going to be the greatest buck ever. Whatever. I'm a pillar of community, statues, all of that stuff. All right, cool.

If you told me both parties were committed to that future, then I would have them, you know, further up the chain, but it's obvious with Janice is going to eventually move on. And that thing is going to be desolate. And so, yeah, I got the Bucks at 14. And, you know, the Wizards and the Hornets

were fighting for the spot after the Bucks for me because what's so good about the Hornets? You're going to laugh at where I have the Hornets. But let's talk about it. So let me, the Bucks, they still have Janus. I can't put them any further down than 13th if they still have Janus.

What they get for Janus, if they do indeed ever trade him, is going to be interesting. And like, presumably they'll get a lot. Can they triangulate it so they get some of their own picks back? That would really help.

I don't know that that's going to be possible. We'll see. Let me just defend my Brooklyn and Washington. Where did you have Brooklyn and Washington? I had them 15 and 14. Brooklyn is 12 for me. and yeah, Washington is 13. But again, like, this is a whole morass right here.

Hornets, the Wizards, like, Brooklyn, like, there's no, I look at them as they don't have a young guy on their team. Like, say the Hawks, right? Like, Jalen Johnson, I think the world of. There's nobody on the Wizards who I think that of. There's nobody on the, well, I guess I like Brandon Miller, but, like, there's, He's a young guy that I'm like, they seem nice. But do they have all star perennial all star written all over them? I don't see that on any of these rosters.

Do you? Okay. Two things, because Wizards fans, the 19 of them that are still out there are going to be so furious. He's like, well, we've done all this great stuff. We have swaps. We got picks. Oh, yeah.

Like, we've done the right thing. And I'm like, that's all true. Like, I like Alex Tsar. Fine. I like Kulibali. Fine. Kishan Georgia, all right. Like, to me, all of these.

like theoretical teams, it's very hard to build them into an actual good team, particularly when the lottery gods knock you down to sixth in this draft. They have six and 18 in this draft. A bunch of young guys that are like, sure, whatever. Like all these teams are, it actually going through this exercise makes you appreciate that like there aren't a lot of teams that are like there's no team that's just grossly mismanaged and in a horrible position. Like the Wizards are right? I just don't know what they are. The Nets, I have above the Wizards. solely because those Knicks picks they have far out are pretty valuable picks and looking pretty valuable. And maybe I'm underrating them by having them so low because they do, you know, they are in New York.

Free agents have gone there before. But you got to have guys in house. Yeah, I don't know. Is there one guy on the roster right now? Is there one that's going to be on the next 50 win Brooklyn Nets team? the answer might be no. That seems hard to believe. Like, Cam Johnson,

is Cam Johnson going to be on the next 50 win Brooklyn team? Is Nick Claxton going to be on the next Brooklyn? Is Cam Thomas, or it was extension eligible? Are any of these dudes going to be on the next actually good Brooklyn Nets team? I don't, I don't think so. So I had Washington, Brooklyn, Milwaukee,

Philadelphia. I had, so let's take this next group of teams. Charlotte, Toronto, Chicago, Miami. Those four. How did you have them ordered? I had the Raptors. The Raptors, then the Bulls. Are we going bottom up?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then Miami. So Charlotte, to me, is at the bottom. Like, this is a team that's, they were floating, trading lamello ball throughout, like, their management is, Like, we're open and moving on from this guy in the offseason. He's allegedly the centerpiece of their team.

They're openly shopping the guy during last regular season. I don't think that bodes well for your next five years. If the guy who, I mean, their best play is probably Miles Bridges. But like, the guy who made the All-Star team who people thought should be an All-Star is on the trading block. Like, your team is nowhere, you know. And so, yeah, Charlotte at the bottom of that. Raptors, to me, the Hawks are at the top of that because they do have an all-star.

And they got Jalen Johnson, who I think is on the cusp of all-star level, you know, playing as long as he can stay on the court. So you're going to laugh at me. I went nine Charlotte, 10, Toronto, 11 Chicago, 12, Philadelphia. I mean, look, none of these teams, like, I think Toronto is in the most interesting position in the NBA because they have all. about it. Well, but they have all these guys like you've heard of all of them and like they're interesting. They're a lot of rotation guys. They pivoted from this team that, you know, has several players playing very well in the playoffs right now to a young, but not like that young team of like Barnes, Barrett, Ingram quickly that we in fairness have not seen at all. And while they did that,

they traded stuff to get Yaakov-Purtoe back. And now they have all these guys like they don't have a lot a shooting. They're really expensive for a team that's not been very good. They're like right up they're like in tax danger the next couple years. They're picking ninth this year. Now they have all of their picks and all their swaps going forward. I just like, I don't know. They're trying to do this middle build thing again where lightning strikes and a Kauai deal emerge. Like I don't know. I mean, look, they have a much more decorated pedigree than the Charlotte Hornets who I have one pick one spot above them. But the Hornets do have Lamello Ball.

Your concerns are legitimate. Lamele Ball has to decide, am I a carnival or am I a basketball player? Because if he decides he's a basketball player, he can be pretty damn good. They've got Brandon Miller, who I like, Mark Williams, who I like, and picks 433 and 34 in this draft.

And a couple of pretty valuable picks coming in, including a Dallas pick that they got in the PJ Washington deal, I think. I don't know. You could talk me into either way. And the Bulls, where'd you have the, like, What's the argument for like high level optimism about the Bulls?

There isn't one. There isn't one. Again, all of these teams, one, at least the heat management have a history of putting together Eastern Conference finals. That's why I have Miami 8th above all of these teams. You know what I mean? Like there's a healthy respect for that. None of these other teams can claim this. I think the Bulls, there's a sense that they know they're going to.

going in a certain direction, although with the Bulls, you never really know. Like, they finally pick the side of, like, all right, we don't want to be middling. And middling, not even being, like, 49 wins. Middling being 41 wins and being dedicated to that outcome year and a year out. It seems like they're moving in a different direction. But in terms of what's already on the team, I know people love the rookie who, you know, shows. Ellis is good.

Yeah, he showed signs the second. and half of the season. And Josh Giddy played the best ball of his life. I'm a Kobe White fanatic. I love Kobe White. I'd like to see him get traded to a real team so he could like actually get some playoff reps someday. But I think the optimism with the Bulls is that they finally chosen a direction to run

toward. What direct is the direction is what? I don't know. Embracing young guys. The thing about the East is you can't even choose to bottom out. It's like impossible to choose to bottom out. It's not impossible. The Wizards did it and it didn't work.

But like the Bulls are looking around like, there are six bona fide strong playoff teams in the East. Everybody else can kind of talk themselves into thinking they should be in the mix for the last two spots of the NBA playoffs. And again, like the fact that I have the Bulls 12, it's actually not, their situation's fine. They have all of their picks and swaps. They are a big market. they have a pick coming from Portland that could convey next year, maybe the next, so they have an extra pick.

They've got a bunch of interesting young players, Buzellis chief among them. And even though they have Giddy's contract coming up, Kobe White's extension eligible, I don't think they can actually extend him because he'll want more than they're allowed to offer. I.O's extension eligible. They've got to figure out the Vooch thing. He's expiring. They could have a max slot next summer. Do they have to figure out the Vooch thing? I don't know.

they might, who knows, well, they might sign into like a five-year, $150 million extension. We're just going all in. Vouch needs to be sorted. So I had Miami 8th

based on just, like, I've doubted them before their ability to dig out of what looked like permanent mediocrity. I'm not going to doubt them again. I'm just not going to,

I don't want to get, we don't have to get too far into it. They've got some interesting young players. Bam, Hero, hero is sneakily extension eligible. So that means my top seven.

I wonder if this match is yours. Is it no, particular order. Indiana, Cleveland, Atlanta, New York, Boston, Orlando, Detroit. Does that match your top seven? I had, I had the, I had the Hawks at eight and the heat at seven. Fair enough. I have the Hawks like preposterously high. I like, let's, let's do it like this. Well, who'd you, let's just go straight to that top. Who'd you have number one? I ended up having Cleveland, too. Me too. I have Cleveland number one. They have three all stars on their team. All under the age 28 or whatever Donovan Mitchell is at this point.

Again, I don't know how you like watch Indiana play and say, we can't possibly beat them next year. Like, that's insane. Like, Cleveland has to think they can beat Indiana next year. Mowgli has so much room to grow even further as a player.

And he seems like the kind of guy who's going to put in the pain and the work to get there. I still believe in Garland has, an actual good playoff run in him. I thought he was excellent this regular season. In fact, underrated in how great he was this regular season. You know, I believe in, I think their coach knows what the hell he's doing. I think there's something to having an offseason where you know what your target is.

Whereas like, our target's Indiana next year. Like, this is what every guy who matters on that team is thinking about how they can make themselves a better player in the context of a. series against Indiana. And yeah, the guys are young. The guys are young. They're locked in contractually. That's the best, to me, situation.

When you consider, like, Tatum's freaking Achilles is going to take a year for him to come back. And then even when he comes back, he's got to get worked in and stuff. Yeah, I had Cleveland and won. I don't, all the reasons you just said, I don't really even care that, like, it's possible Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome are on other teams next year because they're financial crunch. I don't care that they have a bunch of guys that are extension eligible, including Garland sneakily, and we'll see what they do with like Hunter, Struce, Dean Wade, whatever. Don't care.

I don't even care that at some point they may slash probably will have to trade one of the four guys for like multiple pieces and or salary relief to just reorient their team. And as I've said before, I think that whoever they trade will not be Donovan Mitchell will not be Evan Wobbly. And so you just start narrowing down like the suspects. Sufu. I don't care. I'm taking them number one. Did you take Indiana number two? No, I took Boston number two. Wow. Yeah, I think when Tatum comes back, they're going to be fine.

They're going to be a contender. I really believe that. I think Tatum is going to reorient the center of gravity of his game. I think it'll be less perimeter oriented. I think he's going to lean on being stronger and bigger than

most of the guys that he plays against in a way that he just doesn't. Right now. I think he's, like, the Achilles is going to necessitate that transition. And I think they're going to be damn good when he comes back. So long as they keep Jalen Brown, because I keep, I don't know, I saw somewhere like, oh, Brown might be on the move. I think that would be an insanely stupid thing to do.

I think if they did that, it would be, A, they're getting real stuff back. Like an actual All-Star back? I don't know. I haven't found a Jalen Brown deal that I love because they have to get some quality players back, but be like, again, similar to the town's thing, just breaking a giant contract into smaller, mid-sized contracts, whatever. I had Boston three. You could have talked to me into Boston at anywhere from four to six.

I had Indiana too. I just like they're really, they're, they have two guys making like 90 million combined in Halliburton and Seacom. And yeah, they're going to be in the tax next year when, if and when they bring back Miles Turner. They could slide a little down if they dump Matherin, and I think he's the most likely dump candidate on the team. Maybe the most interesting extension possibility of the whole summer

that no one's talking about is Aaron Neesmith, who's eligible, I think, for like a three-year, $67 million extension that would tack on three years ago. They might be a hold out for more than that. You might be able to? I don't know. It's a spicy one. It's a spicy one.

Now he's got a couple more years left on his contract. So this would be like tacking on at the end. And just something to watch for Indiana. you know, everyone's like, oh, they never go into the tax. The Simon family does want to go into the tax. Just something to why. I don't know like how long. Like I just, they have a minority owner named Stephen Rails who bought 20% of the team

a couple years ago. Very involved. I saw some of his family at the game in New York. From what I've heard, if he ever would be able to get governing control of the team, he's much more willing to go into the tax than the Simon family. So just something to monitor. I just like their team. Boston, I had three.

But you could talk me in, you could talk me into Boston, New York, Atlanta, Orlando, Detroit, in almost any order. Wait, Atlanta, you could, you could talk. Let me make the case for Atlanta. Atlanta being in the top four. Let me make the case for Atlanta. Yeah, make the case. Because this is interesting. Their salary stuff is pretty clean now.

Yes. Their draft pick stuff, considering that initial Dejante Murray trade, the one where they acquired him, was a disaster is pretty clean now and very clean after like 2027. And they actually have a pick that's coming in in 2027 to offset the one they have going out. They're pretty safe from like tax apron stuff, assuming they let Capella walk. And I think they'll do that and re-sign Lavert. Now, obviously hovering over this is like if they decide that Tray Young's not part

of their future at any point, they're going to take a step back. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. He's extension eligible to. That's going to be a fun one. He's got a player option for the year after next. I just think like Trey Young plus Jalen Johnson plus Risha Shay plus Daniels is like, that's like not a bad nucleus. And when you have a little wiggle room financially, you could like, you could talk like, look, I'm just saying you like are they are you have, do you have Orlando above them?

Yes, and Detroit. 100%. And this is why I ask you this. Can you envision Trey Young carrying a team to the conference finals? I get it.

They did it that one year. Get it. Then suspect East, but whatever. Could you envision in the context of the East as it exists right now? Being the engine of a conference finals team

in the way that we've seen Brunson do it and Halliburton do it and Tatum do it. And we, to be fair, haven't seen any of the Cleveland guys do it. Um, it's, it's hard to see. It's like, I just have way more faith in the Orlando guys, way more faith in

Cade Cunningham to be that kind of player. Like I said, you could, you could put these teams in any order. My, my, I didn't even mention a congou. I like Laver. I like, I like the, like, they've got something going there. Some guys, but that's interesting. And they, but like, here's the thing. Orlando's top two indisputably better.

Well, better than Atlanta's top two. Vancaro is a star who's going to be a playoff star Wagner if he can ever figure out what the hell is going on with his jump shot is an all-star level player for sure My question about Orlando is Like who are the other guys on the team Because they do have all their picks and all their swaps Jalen Suggs is definitely another guy

Well like so Jalen Suggs is is a great guy Love Jail and Suggs he's never healthy But I think he fits really well with those two guys I love that trio. They're suddenly like really expensive. They need Anthony Black to hit because and maybe De Silva becomes one of the guys. I like De Silva. Jet Howard has barely played.

Isaac is like, I just can't play more than like 15 minutes in any game. And they're suddenly kind of expensive. And like Wendell Carter Jr. is all right. He's all right. Like I think they need a better center than him. I just feel like there's a. they haven't they're so far behind figuring out their offense I feel like they're a little bit more like

urgently have to ask themselves who's on the team that really makes a deep playoff run now maybe it's just they're healthy I think if they're healthy they're a 50 plus win team next year it could be a top yeah so maybe I am underrating them you think the hawks on the doorstep of being a 50 win team I definitely do not how many games did they win this last year

I don't think so. The Hawks are like Eastern Conference play. They're 40 and 42. Yeah. Eastern Conference playing team. Yeah, I guess you have to take Orlando over Atlanta. Boston is super interesting because I bet people would underrate Boston's like near term, medium term future based on what happened to Tatum. I think they're fine in the medium term. I think so too.

Because like they control their draft picks in 26 and 27 and basically. and basically 28, which is just a top one protected swap with the Spurs. I guess they don't control it. But like, they have a lot of, they have a lot of control over their picks for a team that's been kind of all in. They're going to reset their roster a little bit. But like Jason Tatum is Jason Tatum, man. They have one of the five to six players in the NBA when he's healthy. Let's just say they only move on from one of Chris Stapp's or Drew Holiday this offseason.

because new ownership steps in is like, come on, guys. Like, why are we paying $400 million for a Jason Tatum list team? I get it, insurance will cover some of it, whatever. Why wouldn't that team be a top six team in the East? That's a top six Eastern Conference team, that roster. Sands Jason Tatum and Porzinius or two holiday. Yeah. That's a top six East team.

it's not deep. They're staring at Horford's free agency and Cornett's free agency. You know, obviously Pritchard, White, Brown, one, let's say, I mean, I'm not sure it's a lock that both those guys are on the team next year,

Porzinger and Holiday. That's the thing. I think there is, there are senators where neither of them is on the team next year. Or we didn't talk about all about Detroit. Detroit is my number six. I had them. them sixth as well. What an exciting moment for the Pistons.

There's really like nothing not to like. They don't have a pick in this draft. Other than that, they've got their draft stuff. Cade making all NBA, that bumps his salary. Same with Mobley up to 30% of the cap, which is not great, but not great for them, but great for Cade. I just like, the Knicks were like, I don't want to play this team anymore. This team's tough and nasty. And Duren seems to be figuring out. Asart Thompson seems to be figuring out. You can do the sports fan thing, Zach, and be like, look at the point differential of the first round series with the Knicks and be like, we're a conference final team. You can do that if you want to. What do you think of the big question, I think, is Ivy.

What do you think of Ivy? He's extension eligible. Should he be a long-term part of that team? Is he in K'd the back court that makes sense? I think you need another guy who can actually put the ball on the deck. I don't think this idea that you turn Cade into like a Luca Donchich in Dallas type of guy. Even in Dallas, he had Kyrie Irving. And I think you literally need another dude who can actually shoulder the burden of creating offense for himself and others.

And another thing, I think Cade, you know, needs to be a better off the ball player in order for that to be facilitated. And it's tough when you have two young guys Because I think Luca has kind of been a fully realized On-ball guy for like years Basically since like year three So it's like Luca like you don't really have a lot more to learn on the ball Why don't you learn how to do shit while you don't have the ball in your hands? I don't think Cade is there yet

So there is an awkward tension in terms of that he has more to develop on the ball But Ivy needs to rock too And so at the same time he needs to be learning how to be a threat when he isn't pounding the rock, you know, for days at a time. So, yeah, I think I, I think Ivy should be a part of what they're doing. A guy who nobody could stay in front of is a valuable guy, in my opinion. I do too. He was not forgotten about, but like, you know, the Beasley Hardaway shooting guard combo

really worked for them for the most part last year. Both of them are free agents. Ivy brought, what, did he break his leg, I think, halfway through the season. didn't play again. I thought that you started to see some hints of an improving fit with those two guys on the floor at the same time. And he shot, I think he shot much better from three this year. Limited sample, but you want the limited sample to be going up, not going down. It's better, better than nothing. And I totally agree with you. Like, I like the contrast and styles with how they play with the ball. And they, like, look at Ant right now. Like, you, like, look at Ant right now.

They need another guy who can break defenses out of the dribble who's not deliberate with it like Randall. I like and that and in the playoffs, I think you started to see some chemistry between like the Cade, Duren, Asar Thompson, trio with like Duren and the short roll, hitting Thompson cutting to the basket. I like a lot of what's going on there. But if I'm the pistons, I'm absolutely like going to Jaden Ivy trying to get an extension done. Maybe I get a slight discount because of the fact that he. What do you think is a slight discount for Jaden Ivy? Well, coming off a broken leg, kind of checkered first three seasons in the NBA.

He's making $10 million next year. Could I get him four years, $120 million? Yeah, so like basically the Jalen Green contract, basically. But this is four years. Like, could I go four years 100? Like, could I get, is that my getting too greedy? I think that's when you, yeah, I think that's when guys started being like, I'll take my chances and bet on myself. But I think he is in the Jalen Green.

territory extension-wise where it's like, we don't think, you know, that you're bad enough that we'll be like, oh, you don't want to take this, watch, you're not going to perform well enough and we're going to have you over a barrel. But at the same time, like, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibility

that this guy could just completely just almost Tyrese Maxi it, where the offseason before, I think most people would have been like, ah, not a max guy. And then comes in, you know, plays without the extension and shows himself to be, you know, a high quality guy. I think to thread that needle, you do the Jalen Green thing where it's like, well, I guess the Rockets for a Jalen Green ain't worth the money that he got. But I was still kind of a Jailen Green believer and thought that maybe he could show that he was, you know, could be an elite talent there. they're in a nice situation, particularly because I don't think any of these extensions,

like Duren's extension eligible to. I don't think any of them are going to be like break the bank all of a sudden. We have like three guys making the max. Then they have Tobias expiring after next year. And I think that's one where unless he's willing to take a discount, you just got to be like, we're kind of ready to move on from like our post-Tobias Harris era. Thank you for serving your purpose and being feisty in the playoffs. That was awesome.

new Tobias Harris. Just a fun, fun situation. Wait, I didn't get your thoughts on the Nix. Oh, what do you think about the Nix future? I had the Nix fourth. Me too. I think there's a lot of angst right now with Nix fans. Like, angst about Tibbs, angst about did we miss an opportunity,

angst about can a team with Brunson and Kat bookending, you know, the defensive point guard and center, is Kat even a center? like can we really win three to four playoff series and it's like cool this has been a tough series game one was was a was a all time gut point you're in the conference finals the east around you a lot of it is collapsing or wobbly and all you and like you get bridges has been a disappointment he won't take layups anymore there was like is derant in play whatever and it obi makes a lot of money bridges extension is coming i'm like all these dudes are good and in their primes like i think it's a pretty fucking solid situation despite all your picks a lot of your picks are going to

on. I think they're just like, if I can have five to six good players in their primes, including two all NBA players, so great players, like, yeah, it's not perfect. Like, wow, you got to figure out like a kind of a strange roster. It's a good roster. I like a question. Question. We know cat is touchable. And you just mentioned, oh boy, I'm just asking, I'm just asking, you just mentioned the difficulties of Jalen and Catton, Jalen Brown. Jalen Brunson. Excuse me, Jalen Brunson, sorry.

You know, he's got some limitations. Is Jalen Brunson untouchable? Oh, come on now. Come on. I'm just asking. His dad is the assistant coach on the team. They broke every tampering rule. His freaking godfather is the GM.

The better question is, would you trade Jalen Brunson if you could get in the mix for Janus? Now, that is a better question. I then I think you have to. How could you not at least have a meeting? Like we maybe we got to What is Godfather?

Yeah, maybe we got to ghost Rick out of the meeting and just have it in secret. But like you gotta have a meeting. It's honest. It's Janice and Kat together. Like that's interesting. Like I think that is the only kind of thing you do of Bruntonville.

Because like again, he has his obvious limitations. He's a perennial all star. He's obviously endeared himself to New York Nick fans in a way that like, quite frankly, is just shocking to me. I like, I didn't know. He's a god. Yeah. Literally. Literally.

Um, and I know Nick fans would be, they would be so freaking conflicted. But on day two, they'd wake up and be like, wait a second. We got Janus now. That's one where you got to like, you got to have the meeting and you got to be like, Hey, Rick, we need you to go. Like, we left this thing at the office at the garden. Like we're, and then everyone meets at the practice facility. for two hours in Terrytown.

Rick, can you go pick this thing up? I think we left it there. All right, Waz. This was a lot of fun. By the way, I want to shout out. We realized in the fall,

we were both in the same little city in Spain at the same time last summer. Oh, yeah. How cool is Cichis, man? Sechis, like total under the radar gem. Everyone should go there. Just an incredible place. It's only like 30 minutes outside of Barcelona.

Barcelona. And, yeah, like really cool. beaches. Like, I'm somebody who's not afraid of, like, having, being at a crowded beach. I get it. Most people like a more quiet beach. Sieges offers that. And just like the, like, it's just a beautiful place, like all of these mountains and the hilly-ass areas and just was really, really cool, a cool day trip. Ended up taking the, because, like, you cannot get an Uber out of there. Like, you can take an Uber to there. Uber doesn't exist, basically. In Seegis, right? It's like, it's. It's like, it's.

So we ended up having to take the train. I don't speak Spanish and somehow figured out how to take the train back into downtown Barcelona. Just an incredible day trip that I would advise anybody who ends up going to Barcelona to try to get out to Cedges if you can. We were there for four days. We discovered it totally by accident. I was just looking for places my daughter could swim at the tail end of our vacation. It turns out my wife's college roommate lives there. And so we're like, we're going there.

And it was awesome. All right, Big Waz, group chat. When's the next group chat? Depends on what the Nix do tonight. If the Nix win, we're going live after the Nix game on Saturday. Let's go. If the Nix lose, we get the weekend off. We'll be back top of the week next week Monday.

Gut, gut feel. Nicks win or lose tonight. They're toast. They're toast. I think the Pacers are just... You know what? Forget it. I'm going the other way.

Nix win. Nix by 25. at home. How about that? Big ones, let's go, Matt. I'll see you next time. Let's go Mets, man.

Appreciate you, bro. All right, that's it for today. And this week, unless something really crazy happens, we'll be back on Monday with the new edition of the Zach Lowe show. Will we have a finals preview?

Will we start talking about the finals? I don't know. We'll see. We'll see, Nick's, can you keep us alive? Can you get us to a game seven? Thanks everybody for tuning in. Thanks to Jesse, Chris, Bobby, and Oscar on production.

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