The Zach Lowe Show - Trade Partners for Jonathan Kuminga, Anthony Davis, and Ja Morant!

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

Zach is joined by Tim Legler to preview where Jonathan Kuminga, Anthony Davis, and Ja Morant might end up. Plus, they discuss finals contenders in the East and share their biggest surprise and disappointment of the season. Then, Nekias Duncan comes on to break down Thunder-Spurs IV and do a deep dive on the Phoenix Suns! (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (1:36) Tim Legler joins the show! (2:08) Jonathan Kuminga demands a trade (13:29) What’s going to happen with Anthony Davis? (33:42) Ja Morant wants out of Memphis (51:32) Could the Cavs potentially win the East? (58:10) Which teams in the East can make the Finals? (1:06:58) Biggest surprise of the year (1:15:25) Biggest disappointment of the year (1:17:39) Nekias Duncan on Thunder-Spurs IV (1:24:58) Phoenix Suns deep dive (1:31:31) Suns are able to make 3s and get offensive rebounds (1:35:40) This team has been great on defense (1:39:08) Booker needs to be on the All-Star team (1:49:32) Does something about Luka look off to you? Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Tim Legler and Nekias Duncan Producers: Mike Wargon, Jonathan Frias, and Billy Gil Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. Service Now's AI Special. Let's tackle that work. Request handled. Cases closed.

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visit servicenow.com. Coming up on a loaded edition of the Zach Lowe show, Tim Legler is here from ESPN. We used to be big fans of Jonathan Camagga. He demanded a trade today. Can you believe it?

It's shocking. Jonathan Caminga demanded a trade from the Warriors. It's Camiga Day, January 15th. We talk about him. Anthony Davis. Should the Hawks do it? Should the Raptors do it?

Should anybody do it? Is he injured? How injured is he? He's injured, but how injured? John Moran. What's that landscape looking like? There's a lot of stuff going on in the NBA. Then we go through the Eastern Conference legs called Cavs, Sixers last night.

Which are those teams, or both of them, could potentially win the East? We talk about that. We talk about the trade landscape in the East, small moves, big moves that might happen. We talk about all of it coming up with. Tim Legler. And then Nikaius Duncan from the Dunker Spot is here to discuss takeaways from Thunder Spurs 4. We're going Roman numerals for those teams now. It's a great rivalry no matter what they say. Did the Thunder figure anything out? If so what? And then a deep dive on the Phoenix Suns, the happiest surprise of the year. Tim Legler and I did our biggest surprises and disappointments of the year. He picked the Suns and the Celtics said, save the Suns.

We're going to do a whole thing on the Phoenix Suns with Nakias and a little bit on the Lakers at the end. What is leaving us a little cold about Luca Donautich and the Lakers? Can we put our finger on it? That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Happy Jonathan Cominga Day and a special hello to everyone on Netflix who thought they clicked on Squid Game and accidentally ended up here. Tim Legler. How are you, sir?

Good man. Love Squid Game, by the way. Big fan. Good reference. Too violent for the Loaf family. Speaking of tension, anger, potential violence. Jonathan Cominga, it is Jonathan Cominga Day, January 15th, and fresh as we start this, I wonder where this leak came from, Tim Legler.

Jonathan Cominga has demanded a trade away from the Golden State Warriors, the clergy to Sham Sturania, the most anticlimactic trade demand in NBA history. And right up there with Fercan Corkmas in Philadelphia, in the illustrious tradition of people who barely play and yet think they have the leverage to demand a trade to a frothy trade market. I don't think there is much imminent for the warriors who all you got to do is listen to their coach, talk about the state of their team. He knows, they know they are not in the championship conversation.

They're not particularly close to it. It's a big L for us, Tim Legler, the Jonathan Comingue era. We were on team Jonathan Cominga is good. Jonathan Cominga has not been good enough this season and these paltry opportunities he's had to play. And now the Warriors have to figure out where, when, how, what actually can we get back? Oh, my goodness. This is, I mean, first of all, you're right. It's talking about anticlimactic. He's guys been completely removed from the rotation. He's basically been on a four-year audition, as I describe it every single night. You and I both thought the talent was tantalizing. I thought

Kaminga was going to become a player. He's still so young. You don't want to, you know, write off the possibility that he goes somewhere and, you know, blossoms to a greater extent that he's been able to in Golden State. Their frustration with him and the things that were non-negotiables for them that he needed to improve, he didn't improve. To the point that on a team that is three games over 500, they've completely removed a guy that has a physical profile of exactly what they need a bigger, more athletic wing, and yet they've completely taken them out of the rotation. It tells you all you need to know about the frustration level with the coaching staff at the front office with Jonathan Cominga. And obviously, you know, the trade of Cominga is imminent.

We've known that for a while. So for him to now demand it, yeah, it is kind of like overkill. Like we knew this is coming. So the bigger question is for you, Zach, I think, do you think Jonathan Cominga has something in him that can blossom in another place. And maybe that's, hell, maybe that's a lottery bound team. But he gets to play every night 30 minutes and put up some numbers, but at least, you know, kind of show you every night like what he's capable of, as opposed to what he's doing now, which is basically sitting there collecting dust. And just what you saw of him in Golden State the course of his career, do you think there is more in there based on his age and his talent level and his physical profile.

And where possibly would that be? First of all, just a great execution of the you can't fire me. I quit game plan by Jonathan Kamenga demanding a trade today. I demand out of fear. You all want me? I demand out. Maybe Joe Leuke doesn't want him out, actually. I do think there's something to Kaminga.

I just think this whole situation is so bad for him in every possible way. always tough for a top 10 score first pick to go to a win now team, but particularly so a team that is won so much and plays a system that is so sort of antithetical to how he, I think, would want to play. But I think he has to go through his own version of the transformation that Aaron Gordon went through in his career. And Aaron Gordon at sort of stage one was a better, more polished player than Jonathan Kamenga is now.

But I just think he needs to lean in. like he wants to play the way he did in the Minnesota Timberwolf series or he was the team's leading score. Boy, what a shift to go from leading score in the second round series to out of the rotation and like six months flat. You know, take take, you know, take the Kobe shots, the fade away twos, back people down, turn around jumpers, drives to the rim. The drive should still stay. But like put him with the spacing five and let him screen and roll and make plays in the short role. Dial into defense and rebounding. If he had done that, he'd be playing. If Steve Kerr trusted him on defense, he'd be playing. That's really the bottom line.

But we'll get back to the Warriors. Someone pitched me, Michael Porter Jr. has been sort of the hot name for the Warriors. And I'll go rapid fire with you through some trade stuff later. But someone pitched me Moody, Kaminga, and a pick, and maybe some salary filler. This person pitched me, Pajemski. I think that's too much. And one first round pick for Michael Porter, Jr. And at first blush, I was like, boy, if I'm the Nets, I kind of want a little bit more than that. This guy's playing at an all-star level. But a Warriors pick has some value because of the age of the team. This is not like you're getting a pick from a young, up-and-coming team. It's going to be good for five straight years. Moody just feels like it's not happening. He's like

too mechanical for how the Warriors want to play. It's an interesting one. Michael Porter, Jr. would really help the Warriors, but it has been really just eye-opening. And Steve Curse tried to walk it back a little bit in a couple recent interviews, but to hear him just come out and say things like anyone hoping we can compete with the best teams in the West, it's like not really realistic for us. Now, I happen to agree with him, but saying it out loud is like a whole different thing. Anyway, comminga era in Golden State, RIP. Yeah, look, you think about what he did last year in the Minnesota series. I think I'm glad you referenced that because I actually called both of those games, at least one of them. I think I was there for two in a row. I think it was both

of those games. But you think about what he went through at the end of the year last year. He basically, again, was taken out of the rotation. Remember, he didn't even play in their important games they had to win prior to the play in. He only played three games, made three appearances in the Houston series, which went seven games, wasn't playing in the Minnesota series. Curry goes down and they go, oh, Jonathan, we need you. And I made a joke. He stood up, and I saw a dust cloud flying to the air because he'd been sitting there so long. And he comes out, All he does is give him a 30-point game, 26-point game in that series. And against a Minnesota defense that it required, like, that level of athleticism

and just raw ability to score against that defense at that time. Jimmy Butler was dealing with some injuries. So he wasn't very good in that series. You know, Pajemski wasn't very good, Draymond Green. So here's Kaminga, not playing at all. This is how talented he is. He gets up. I'm not even sure at that point.

His shoes were probably not tied. as he's sitting there thinking another night, I'm not playing. And then all says, oh, you know, Kamenga, you're in, gets up, laces up, rips off the sweats, goes out and drops 30, I want a defense that good. So the talent is, is like there. But I thought maybe he had a break through the beginning of the year. I know the offseason and the contract and all that. It was kind of contentious.

But then Steve Kerr, if you remember, at the beginning of the year, was like, he's earned a place to start. We're starting him. Yeah, we're starting him. And he's going to be a start. And he basically said he earned that. It wasn't like. They had nobody else, and they signed him late, and they're just like, oh, well, we have

Kaminga. I mean, she knows the system. We'll throw him out there. No, he said he earned it. And we did a Warriors game early in the year, and I was like, this is a great sign for Camingo. Now, you know, can he maintain it? Man, oh, man, to go from what he did in the Minnesota series to the contract getting resolved

to then, oh, you're starting at the beginning of the year to literally not playing. No sightings of Jonathan Kamingo whatsoever. And now, obviously, going to be out the door. It's incredible to me. He's still so young, 23 years old. He's 23 years old. So look, I want Jonathan Kamiga to go somewhere else and have an opportunity to play 30 minutes every night the rest of the season. And let's see.

And maybe it's sort of a bad team. Maybe he doesn't have the winning components that Kerr wants. He, you know, Kerr loves the things like Pajemski does, like the 50-50 balls and the box out on a three-point shooter and like all those things. When his name comes up, like Kerr glows about the things he does for him to. Guy Santos, Steve Kerr's eyes light up talking about Guy Santos and the things he does to help you win. So he doesn't feel that way about Kaminga. Obviously, the organization doesn't.

Maybe he doesn't do those things. But I do know this. There's a lot of guys in the league that maybe don't do those like, you know, finishing touch type things, winning plays that are still very talented players that deserve to be in rotations and playing and contributing and being productive. I think Kamika can be that.

I just don't know where that's going to be. But it's time, man. has run its course, well beyond run its course. It's time for Jonathan Camiga to put on a different uniform and not feel like he's auditioning every single time he takes to court. So I'm anxious to see where he ends up and what he can do. Let me just put a bow on the Michael Porter Jr. stuff before I forget. I do think the Nets, if I had to guess, I think the Nets would trade him if they got one good first round pick as part of the deal. And maybe a player they think is useful either for them or to flip down the line because they can then say, well, Cam Johnson got us X amount of draft assets

that were now spinning forward and forward and forward. Not sure Golden State is going to be the team from Michael Porter Jr. as much as good as the fit as they might. I'm sure they'll look at it. I'm not sure. I'm not sure he, I mean, he brings a skill that they need at an A plus level. Everything else, I'm not sure. You know, Milwaukee will be mentioned for him and, and just sort of any sort of distressed high salary player. But I, I've made the case before. I do. think there's a case for the Nets to keep Michael Porter? He's only 27 years old. He only has one more year left on his deal. I don't think his next contract is going to be crazy because of his health concern. So I'll be interested to see what they do. But my gut is they're just an asset at

accumulation mode. Okay. Let's turn to the two slightly to very unhappy super, well, stars who have dominated the trade and injury headlines both injured over the last two days. Starting with Anthony Davis. What a saga on the Anthony Davis front, all occurring during a horizon out of just that messed up my life or maybe it was two days. Anyway, Verizon, let me just tell you, Verizon. Let me just tell you, trade deadline or July 1st, that happens.

I'm getting a new carrier, okay? You get a one day like forgiveness slip for yesterday, which was not ideal for me on a personal level. I'm not going to get into that. But anyway, I listen, real quick on that. I got to chime in on that. So I was kind of unaware. I was in my room doing a lot of work prepping for the game.

My phone was kind of put off to the side. and then I had some interviews to do that I had promised with people about the league on the way to the arena in Philly to call the game. I was going to, I take a 30 minute ride in. I'm like, well, I'll just knock out a couple of these interviews. And that's the first time I noticed it. I was like getting into the car to go to the arena. And I looked at my phone. I'm like, what's this SOS up in the corner here?

Like, that's weird. And then I looked around in like every, it was weird. It was like a movie scene, like an M. Night Shyamalan movie scene. and everybody at the same time is like looking at their phones. And it was like gave you heart palpitations for a second. Like what's happening? And it lasted hours, man. I don't think I got bars again until like after five o'clock.

I finally was able to like text with my wife and like check in on people and make sure everybody was okay. It was a really bizarre situation. So I'm glad that you mentioned that because that was very disruptive. In our industry, yeah, especially you, man. Like that's a pretty critical thing. It was a strange day. Okay.

Anthony Davis, quite a saga. He is likely to have surgery, according to Shams. But then wait. Anthony Davis fights back on Twitter. Lies, lies. And then, oh my God, he doesn't need surgery. And he would still be interested slash able to be traded to a team that is in playoff contention.

This certainly feels to me like Anthony Davis's agents at Clutch, trying to get him to a team that A has some hopes of winning something in the short term. and B might pay Anthony Davis when he's eligible for a contract extension this summer, an extension that I would personally want, almost no part of. And then Shams on ESPN finally mentions Toronto and Atlanta as the teams that are most interested in Anthony Davis. I'm not sure how interested either of those teams is actually or should be in Anthony Davis. But let's start with the Raptors.

you can make an easy trade with the Raptors. I just don't know what the appeal of it would be for the Mavericks. But here's a trade that works right away. Brandon Ingram plus Yacca Burdell, almost an exact salary match, which is a big deal because the Mavericks are over the tax and the Raptors are just a bit over the tax and probably actually want to get under it. They're less than a million over the tax. And then I think Dwight Powell has to come back into that deal to make the salaries exactly

match. So basically Pertle and Ingram for AD. Do I have to throw in a draft pick if I'm the Raptors? Because, you know, B.I's been good this year, but he's got three more years left at 40 a pop. Two after this one, player option at the end of it. And the Pertil contract, which I found inexplicable the moment they signed his extension, is five more years at okay money, but he's hurt a lot, including like a lot of this season. And he's just like, fine.

I don't know if I'm that excited to have him in 2030 for $27 million. even though that's like 14% of the projected cap. I don't know. Does that do anything for you? I mean, for the Raptors, I could see it like as good as B., here's the argument for the Raptors. As good as B.I. has been for us. We have a lot of guys who need the ball and the value of an elite defensive center

replacing the sort of carousel of guys trying to fill that position. By the way, Murray Boyles is playing his ass off right now as a stopgap five. that's more valuable to us than what BI is giving us now. I just, I don't see why Dallas does that, and I don't really see anything there. All right, so let's talk about the Raptors first,

because I heard a different trade scenario, and tell me if this is some, I was doing a lot of research on this yesterday, trying to see in the Raptors with the team that I was really diving into. So I heard another trade proposal. I'm going to comment on yours in a second, but I heard quickly or personally, and R.J. Barrett for AD. Is that not something that works? Because that's a trade scenario that I saw,

and I like that one more for the Raptors than I do the one you proposed. Now look, AD for me, and I heard you'd say that you wouldn't want any part of that extension that he's going to be looking for. And I completely agree with you. And here we are dealing again with an Anthony Davis injury. and I don't know that how any person can reasonably think and expect that Anthony Davis is going to have some significant stretch of good health coming up his way. Like, and he'll put together a three-year stretch of playing 70 to 75 games. It's, it's silly to think that that's going to happen. Now, Brandon Ingram's had his share of injuries. He's been healthy this year.

So do you think that, okay, maybe this is the start of something for Ingram? Or do you think, hey, man, they're 25 and 17. He's played pretty much every game. I think he's missed two games and it's coming. So maybe the second half of the year looks different for the Raptors if he goes down because an injury is coming with Brandon Ingram at some point. Or you think, hey, man, you know, he's young enough. Maybe he can have a few years now where he's healthy.

If that's the case, I like what he's brought to Toronto. They didn't have what he brings at all. This is a guy that's got an answer to basically any personnel matchup in front of him, any scheme because of his ability to shoot off the dribble, his length, his mid-range game. And he's clearly given them an offensive dynamic. They did not have. By the way, their third-ranked defensive team in the league. This is a team that gets after defensively. So the numbers have been really good defensively. He has given them an answer. I know they got some guys and also, like you said, need the ball in quickly and Barrett and these

different guys. Scotty Barnes, not so much. He's more of a Jack of All-Trades guy that finds ways to score without running stuff for him. Ingram has given them an element to their offense man to finish off possessions and to win ISOs and that stuff. I, I, I, I, I, I love what he's brought to that team. I love the fact that he's played every game. I like his age, certainly not better than Anthony Davis's. I think both guys are injury prone. I don't like that as much for Toronto,

bringing in Anthony Davis to that situation when I almost can guarantee you, first of all, you don't know what you're going to get this year. And then just every year, you're kind of just waiting for the next injury. So I don't like that as much. If it costs you quickly or pertal, one of those two plus R.J. Barrett, I like that one a little bit more. I think the risk there is worth it for the Toronto Raptors without having to give up Ingram. Interesting. A couple of things. You're dead on on B.I. He's the bucket getter.

And they like Scotty Barnes can do that sometimes, but it's not just sort of the natural way he plays. And it's nice to have a bucket getter. As unsexy as some of the on-off numbers are with Ingram this year, like there have been, I think, better with him off the floor. He's a bucket getter. RJ Barrett is more of a second side. The offense is already flowing, get him the ball on the move. and he's kind of a jack of all trades in a way that I like, but in that scenario, the reason I didn't put quickly in the deal is, I just don't know why Dallas wants four years of Emmanuel quickly at $32.5 million a year. I just think that contract right now is a sort of like, I got not like almost to stay away for the rest of the league. Like he's fine. He's been wildly

inconsistent. Kind of hasn't improved very much. Like I don't, and that contract was very much a bet on him improving. I agree with you. I think it's probably doesn't make a ton of sense for your team. Like I said, I don't really know. I think I don't really know how interested Toronto is. Atlanta, I think, is the more interesting one. Atlanta can do a trade where it's canard and poor Zingis. So a guy who's not playing much for you in Porzengis and a guy who sometimes plays a lot,

sometimes plays a little. And then they need one little minimum salary in there to make the math work. Now that trade would put Atlanta over the tax, which is not a place I don't think they want to be. So that's one consideration. And then you have Anthony Davis and you can start him, bring a Congo off the bench. You can play the both of them together.

You're clearly a better team. Here's where I am with Atlanta. I would just do nothing if I were the Hawks. I think I would just do nothing. Anthony Davis is a very good player. He makes $54 million this year, 58 next year, has a player option for 62 million. I wouldn't extend him.

and I could see as part of these trade talks, Anthony Davis and his agents doing something like, if you don't want to extend me, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to opt in to $63 million in the last year of my contract if you don't extend me. And if I don't do that, if you don't want me to do that,

you've got to extend me. And even if it's like 30, 40 a year way below my max, I want some long-term security. I don't like any of those scenarios for Atlanta. As much as I like, let me stamp pat, do nothing. See where this Pelicans pick ends up in the lottery, because that's the critical, not that they're trading that pick to Dallas, no chance in hell. I don't know if you're trading it to anybody except maybe for Janice.

And I think that's not going to happen this season. I want to see where that pick lands. And I want to revisit my life when I know where that pick is. If it's number five, that means something different to me. If it's number one, that means something different to me. I want to know where it is, and then I want to get to the summer with my cap sheet clean, my total flexibility going forward, and figure out what the next iteration of the team is. Now, that also may involve a short-term extension for C.J. McCollum, which I wouldn't rule out,

because that makes him an interesting trade vehicle and salary filler if Janus does become available in the summer. And on top of that, if I do extend C.J. and I have Anthony Davis. Now I'm way over the tax and I don't want any part of that. I just want to chill and do nothing and reassess my situation and the honest situation and the Pelicans pick. And if I don't make the playoffs that year this year, that's cool. Like I don't think Anthony Davis plus Dyson Daniels plus Ries-A-Shay plus Jalen Johnson. It's not turning me into a team that could win the East this year given his injury situation up. I'm out. I completely agree with your take on what Atlanta should do. I wouldn't do that if I were

Atlanta. The trade that I was looking at was Prozingis, Risa Chay and a pick. They're not going to trade Riesas Shea for Davis. As far as he's been there, not doing it. I mean, he didn't really take a jump this year, but you're still talking about the number one pick of the draft.

Here's what, here's what, if I'm Atlanta, here's where I'm looking at it. Jalen Johnson is turning into a star. I think should be an all star this year. And he's now the guy that you're like your eyes are glued to every night. So they've got a guy that, like, the fan base is kind of into.

He's so young. He's grown exponentially just really in the last year. What this guy's added to his game, there's no telling what he could be in two years from now. Hold on to that. Nikol Alixander Walker came in and showed you that, like, there's a whole other level to his ceiling offensively the way that he's played this year. You still have Dyson Daniels. You have Riesce. If I'm Atlanta, now that you've moved on from the trade.

a young era in Atlanta. Let's see what this is. And look, hold on to the pick. If that means, hey, Anthony Davis gets moved somewhere else and you missed out on the Anthony Davis thing, okay, you're going to be fine because I've got a lot of skepticism how that will turn out for any team that trades for Anthony Davis just based on his lack of availability and the money that he's going to be owed and what he's going to need in return if he ends up to plays in terms of getting more money a longer term.

That's a massive risk for an organization based on Anthony Davis's, you know, history with injuries. So if I'm Atlanta, I'm not biting on that. I like this young group that I've got right now, particularly now you can build around a guy like Jalen Johnson and what he has become. I'm not taking the bait on Anthony Davis. Speaking of Tray Young, by the way, the Wizards, I don't know if they announced it or Sean's reported it. He will be, I think they announced it. Trey Young will be out until after the All Star Break nursing, all of the devastating injuries, he suffered toward the end of his tenure in Atlanta.

The most predictable, oh, yeah, we really like this guy. We think he can help our young players get easier shots. We're totally, like, not going to tank the whole season because we won too many games with C.J. McCollum, and we got Trey in his spot now. He's, yeah, we want the player. Now, that could be true, and there could be an extension this summer, and they could be talking about next year in regards to all those basketball reasons they traded for Tray Young, but just like, don't, you know, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

You're going to sit, Tray Young, we know that. All right, let's move on to the Bucks, a team that I had mentioned way, way back when Nico Harrison got fired on my long list of Anthony Davis potential trade destinations when it's clear, when it was clear already then that the Mavericks were going to have to detonate this thing and tank. And by the way, they're tanking. The Jazz are blatantly tanking already. I think the Grizzlies was Zach Eadie.

they mentioned, they announced he's going to be out six more weeks and John Morant, which we'll get to, I think they're going to go a little bit in a tankish direction, although which is great news for the surging LA clippers who are going to make the play and probably on their own merits, but also by default. Now, I mentioned the bucks for AD only because if they're going to buy one last time and all indications are, at least as of now, and it hasn't gone great in the last week, that they're going to try to buy one last time. It's going to be a high salary, somewhat distressed kind of player that they could get on the cheap.

Anthony Davis is a big name. I don't think, I just don't see a deal there because he makes so much money. They'd have to put Miles Turner in the deal. The Kuzma Portis, poopoo platter. Everyone is sending everywhere. Doesn't get it done. So, and I just don't know what's in that really for,

I mean, Miles Turner is fine. Maybe Dallas would be interested in that. I want a more talk about Janus and the booing, his own. fans thing when they were getting shalacked at home by Minnesota without Anthony Edwards and without Rudy Gobert, who was suspended. The Bucks, after starting off really well when Janus came back from injury, I've lost two in a row. They play the Spurs tonight, Wembe v. Janice's Can't Miss TV.

The Minnesota one was particularly dispiriting. They are now just five and four since Janus came back. For the season, I'm going to read you some like alarming numbers. numbers for the season, they are plus 10 per 100 possessions with Janus on the floor, like dominant and minus 11 per 100 possessions when he sits, a difference of 21 points. Since he came back in those nine games, they're plus 13 with Janus on the floor and minus 19.5 per 100 possessions with the honest on the bench. Total points plus 65 and nine games with the honest on the floor, minus 69 in those nine games with Janus off the floor.

Their roster just is not good enough. And the booing, the, I'm booing my own fans, you know, all of this stuff. If these losses, I have said from the beginning, I've never slamming the door on a Janus in-season trade. I don't think he wants that. I certainly don't think they want that. I think the summer is where the rubber hits the road with the extension that they can for him. But their next four games, San Antonio, Atlanta, Oklahoma, City, Denver. I mean,

they're 11th in the east still. If this gets uglier and uglier, the door cracks open just a little bit. But I mean, those numbers are astonishing. And it just screams like the roster just is not close to good enough. And I don't really know what the solution is. Like, throw Zach Levine, throw Michael Porter Jr. Anthony Davis, whoever. Like, I'm not sure there's any. Anthony Davis, is out for an unknown period of time. Like, I'm not sure if there's anything that's fixing this beyond the point of, hey, maybe we can sneak in the play in and the East stinks, but they're so bad with him off the floor.

It's almost incredible. Yeah, the only, you know, in terms of like thinking about potentially, you know, having meaningful games later in the year, the only saving grace is, like, Chicago's not a great team. They're two games in front of them. And I don't think any of those teams behind them are going to, like, all of a sudden, going to roll. And we're Milwaukee, despite the schedule that you just mentioned, despite the fact that neither one of us like their roster, like there's not much like about this roster at all.

The only thing maybe you found out a little bit was Rollins can play. That's about all that came from it. You mentioned the numbers with Yannis on and off. Can I first talk about the other night what happened in that game? So I'm just going to tell you from a player's perspective, if you are playing a team without Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and you're down 30 in the first half, the only possible way that that can happen. It's not a matter of getting outplayed. That is a situation where nobody in that locker, like collectively,

the group was remotely close to the right frame of mind that you had to have to go play that game. That's the only way that can happen is your thought process, your mind, your state of readiness was non-existent when that game began. And that's inexcusable. So for the fan base, man, I get it. you go out there to see that game. You buy tickets to the game.

Maybe some of those people were ticked off because they wanted to see Anthony Edwards and they didn't get a chance to, right? And it is one appearance in Milwaukee this year. And maybe that's why they were like in a foul mood. But they have every right to react that way. If you play a team without their star and their starting center and you are down 30 at halftime.

His reaction to that when he got the N-1, he started the second half and he's sitting there and he's basically saying, boo this, boo this, whatever. I mean, I don't know what that was about. It didn't really, I'm just like, that's a nothing to me, like whatever that was. That's just frustration boiling over from everybody in the building at that point because of how embarrassing that situation began. But I don't like the roster at all. I don't know that there's anything and any of the names that you just mentioned are going to remotely make it more intriguing to me.

It's a bad situation. They're a really bad team if Janice Anta Tocopo is not on the floor, dominant when he is on the floor. dominant when he is on the floor, their roster just isn't good enough for the guy to play normal minutes and have that team be competitive. Now, can they linger around and possibly make the play?

And yeah, sure, because of the team that they're trying to catch, mainly, and that's Chicago. I think Atlanta's going to be better than that. I don't think they're going to catch them. So can they catch Chicago? Yeah, probably.

And be a playing team and either win a game and then lose the next game or lose right away and done for the year. that's like, to me, they're sealing for the season. So if you want to go ahead and make some sort of a trade to bring in a name and a contract at this stage to try to accomplish that, have at it. I don't think that that's the solution for the bucks either. Yeah, I didn't care much about the booing.

I just think, again, we've seen other, like Julius Randall gave the thumbs down, some baseball players. It happens. His explanations after the game were very labored as they always are. Like, it's just so it doesn't make a lot of what he says. I'm like, what? You're talking about the family dinner table? I don't get it.

I do. It is interesting to revisit the Kuzma trade for them because Middleton has been such a zero and clearly coming toward the end of his career health-wise for the Wizards that I kind of started wondering like did they actually as as bad as Kuzma was last season. He's been okay this year. Like he's shooting 58% on twos. The three is not is 32% and teams sometimes guard him with their centers and just say go ahead, go ahead and shoot. But he's at least contributing. and Middleton really isn't. But then, like, Kuzma's contract is a little bit more problematic. Middleton would have been an expiring for them. They gave up a pick swap. They gave up A.J. Johnson, again, who's not doing anything for the Wizards, but it would be maybe a prospect, someone would be interesting. It's just, anyway, interesting to think about.

And Janus Hubbers over all of these things we're talking about, over the Anthony Davis trade landscape, and over the next guy we're going to talk about, which is John Morant. Let's take a quick break and then hit the John Moran trade landscape. The Zach Lowe Show is probably. to you by Fandul. Fandle is putting you in control right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward.

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Learn more at Adobe.com slash Firefly. Okay. John Morant. Once out of Memphis. Everyone knows it. I think they want them out of Memphis. 40 million this year, 42 and a half next year, 45, 27, 28. There was a little dust up at practice yesterday in Berlin,

apparently between him and Vince Williams and another classic jaw truncated media session. I just, I mean, the teams, everyone knows the teams that make theoretical sense. And Miami has gotten all of the buzz publicly. Milwaukee is another team. Again, desperation move, you know, buy low, star talent, all that. Toronto's been mentioned. I don't necessarily see that. We can talk about them.

Minnesota's been mentioned. I don't see that. because of the money. I mean, he might be my all-time most disappointing player. And I don't mean to sound like a school arm being like, I'm so disappointed in you,

John Moran for your behavior off the floor. I just mean that like, I was a true believer early in his career. He looked like, forget the face of the NBA stuff. He looked like a true leader of a rising up-and-coming team who kind of took after his person He looked like a player who wanted to bring, he looked like a star who wanted to bring his teammates along with him and not play separately from them.

And then it just all went sideways in every possible way. The off court stuff, the Instagram stuff, we don't even need to get into that. Then, you know, he's unhappy last year with the offensive system that they run, ironically, the one the heat run now to some degree. Now he's unhappy with this coach and the substitution patterns, which are strange, by NBA standards. And the fact that the coach dared hold him accountable in the locker room. And not only that, he's never been a good defensive player. He's never been a good three-point shooter.

And his super skill was always getting to the basket and finishing at the basket. He doesn't do much of that anymore, at least not this year. And if he's not doing that, I'm just not sure, like, how he's helpful to a team. And part of that is maybe is there some physical degradation because of how he plays and how much contact he takes around the rim. I'm just not sure, like, there's this idea that Memphis wants this rebuilding package, young players and picks. We saw what Troy Young went for, C.J. McCollum and Corey Kisper, an expiring and a role player. I'm not sure John Morant has any more trade value than that. I've heard some people say he does because of the change of scenery by low,

the electric talent is still there. I've seen some people say he doesn't. I'm more of like, it's probably about the same because I look at that. It's not bad contract. It's not a super max or anything like that, but like I don't know. Like I'll give you for instance, Tim Legler, Miami. And I mentioned Janice hovering over all of this.

Miami is the kind of team that has to sit there and think as long as that guy in Milwaukee is potentially someday out there. Golden State has to think about this too with trades they make. We mentioned Michael Porter Jr. and all that throwing away a pick in that trade, not throwing away but trading a pick. As long as that

guys potentially maybe out there. We cannot cannibalize our assets that we're going to need if that ever becomes available to us for any lesser trade. That's Miami's calculus if they come to John Morant. Someone pitched me this trade. Andrew Wiggins and Davion Mitchell straight up for John Morant. And my first reaction to that was Andrew Wiggins and Davian Mitchell have been good this year.

Like, Davian Mitchell's been legit good from Miami and a perfect fit for their offense. they play, Jha doesn't play. And if I trade two rotate, two starters for one in Jah Moran and then I turn it and then like A,

Wiggins could be salary filler for me down the line in a Yonis deal. B, even if I can still turn around to get Yonis, because I haven't given up any picks in this fake Jod trade, I'm going to have to give up three or four players to get Yonis.

I've traded like seven for two at that point. Like who else is on my team? Like as strange as it sounds, if I'm Miami and you and you come to me with that offer, I might be like, how about Rozier and Andrew Wiggins instead, like a guy who's not playing for me at all? I mean, I think Miami will look at it.

I think their interest level is currently being overstated. I think Toronto's interest level is currently being overstated, but I think they'll look at it. I don't know. What do you think about John Miami on South Beach playing the offensive system that he hated in Memphis? So all to talk to me about, well, John Morant, what he needs is Miami.

He needs the Miami culture. He needs the Miami. The fitness tests. Like he needs, right. This isn't a place where you get to be mad that the coach called you out. This is a place where the coach has won a power struggle with freaking LeBron like 15 years ago. Right. And you know what?

You know what my comeback to that would be? I don't think any of that stuff would have an effect on John Moran at all. John Moran's going to be John Morant how he wants to be. But here's though where I think there's an. intriguing value to John Morant. And again, I don't want to get into all the off-the-court stuff. Like, you know, based on his history, like it's a little bit of buyer beware there with that stuff. So I don't want to talk about that.

I'm going to talk about him as a player and on the court. And here's one thing I do kind of think about John Morant. Because of what, you know, the time that he's missed, because of all the stuff that's happened there, because of his current situation with the coach and just, you know, just what a bad look it's been for John Moran. You know, some of the games, he had a game recently we had a 40-point game and, like, hit big shots down the...

Philly. It was a crazy, who's the crazy Philly game? Philly game. And the entire time, he looked absolutely miserable while it was going on. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. He's hitting big shots.

They're calling timeout. He's walking toward the huddle, shaking his head. And at one point, he just kind of gestured. He went like this with his arms. And basically he was mouthing the words, get out of the way. Like basically, let's simplify the offense.

Just give me the ball and get out of the way. And this is what happens, what I'm doing right now because he played great in that game. He looked like jaw, right? He looked like that jaw, that electrifying jaw. Here's what I think, Zach, about him. I do think I'm just a little bit intrigued and maybe I'm dead wrong.

No, you're not. If a Morant could end up somewhere, had nothing to do with the culture or what's going on in the building or banners that are hung or who the president of the team is or whatever. it has to do with him still because he's young enough and still has the talent having something massive that he wants to try to still prove.

And I think in that regard, going to a team right now that's sort of a middling type team, I think John Morant, if there are a couple guys there that he likes, that he wants to, he likes as teammates that I think there could be some real juice left to John Morant in a short term, like for this season, assuming he could say healthy, which I think is always a big question mark with him. I think his body has taken, you know, a couple too many falls. And as a result, he's changed his game. So he's not quite as explosive a dynamic finishing at the rim. His mid-range shots are up more. He doesn't play with the same reckless abandon that we loved about him. But it also led to him taking some really bad falls. I think he's adjusted his game.

And maybe that's a smart thing to do. Makes him a little. bit less entertaining, like a little bit less, you know, of that, of that, you know, ridiculous threat that he has to, like, bring everybody out of their seats. But at the same time, I'd be smarter for him long term. I think the talent is there, the game is there. And I do think there be some motivation to John Moran to go somewhere. And even if it was just like to finish out this season really strong and then you're dealing with it again next year, the same stuff. I don't know how long it would last. But I do think there's something about that guy that he would want to try to reclaim his spot in the pecking order in the league

when you talk about star players because he's completely been dismissed in that conversation. And he was a legit all-NBA player. It wasn't like a feel-good small market. Everyone got injured at Guard that year and we had to put someone on. He was a legit all-N-Ba player who played like a guy who really wanted to win and wanted to, who prioritized winning. He cut off the balls. Those was my favorite thing about John Murray.

It was a great cutter. when he was super engaged. You would do stuff that involved the total ecosystem of the team. So I don't disagree with you. In fact, this is why I think, despite his trade value being an absolute rock bottom, that there will be at least one decent asset that goes back to Memphis in the event that they actually trade them. Like this package of Roger plus Davion Mitchell, like the heat would have to throw in something. Because here's the other thing.

The Grizzlies don't have to trade them. they don't they they you're he's under contract for two more years if they get like if sacramento calls was like hey we don't want to give any of our picks because our picks are golden chips and all our young players who we don't even play very much like you oh we kind of forgot devon carters even on our team but we still like him but we give you demar de rosen's partially guaranteed expiring deal and dario sarich and matching salary that expires like the grisies can say f you we're not doing that we'll just keep john moran till his trade values a little higher it can't getting lower than that. And if the heat can get him without compromising their ability to get

into a Janus or Superstar X Derby down the line, I don't think that's a bad idea. The bucks, they need something. But again, if it's Coosma and Portis, which is almost an exact salary match, I don't really see what the point of that is for the Grizzlies. And Toronto, this is an interesting one, you'll like this. Emmanuel Quickly and O'Sha-A-A-Baji together is almost exactly John Moran's salary. Throw in one pick. Toronto owns all their picks.

The lottery protected, whatever. You got to at least look at that if you're the Raptors. Now, because of Quickly's contract being not great value, I'm not sure Memphis does that because that contract is so in, Quickley's contract. The other thing is like

Toronto's, what are they, fourth in the east? They're like playing, they're 25 and 17. That's like, as interesting as the upside you're talking about is, like, it's a lot to throw at Scottie Barnes and Brandon Ingram and RJ Barrett halfway through a pretty good season. I don't know how this is going to end up, but it could very well end up being like, we're keeping them if the offer stink. If we ever, or if this is sort of a secret, stealthy, we're tearing it all down and we get the

picks and the young players for Jaron Jackson Jr. in a trade no one sees coming. Maybe then we dump John Morant for whatever. But it's going to be very interesting to see how this ends up. So let me ask you a question. Do you think John Moran, I mean, is the respect factor going to be there from John Morant to most coaches in this league? I don't know.

Like he's having a problem with Isla. Do you think Rayakovich would be the guy that could, like, he could connect with this? Who was in Memphis? He was in Memphis. Here's what I'm thinking, though. If you're telling me, because Toronto, you're right, hey, man, they're having a really a good year. And they're a really top shelf defense. They're like in the mix. Like if it's stopped right now, they'd be hosting a first round playoff series. Yeah, I'm not, yeah. But,

but, but, but this is, is it, is it is an exponential increase in like talent that can do things against certain teams that maybe the guys they have currently can't. Here's why I would consider that if I were the Raptors. That would be, that would be very intriguing to me if it was You got to throw in a pick. I'm not doing it from Memphis without. I need at least one first round pick and I might need something else. This is my negotiating position, Tim, like we're not getting it done for just, just players. So you're talking about quickly.

Abaji and a pick. I strongly considered out of five with a rap. First of all, the pick isn't going to be a great pick. It's not going to be a super high pick. It's going to be an okay pick. No, I want an unprotected 2030 pick. I want to introduce some upside. It's got to be pushed down the road.

You know, no idea. what that pick will be. If you're the Raptors, I, okay, I'm not as worried about the pick. And I don't think quickly in Akbaji, I think that's a lot to give up. For somebody that I said,

could be highly motivated, 26 years old, you know, a guy that can do things for your team without disrupting, by the way, what the other offensive players on your team really need.

Like, John Moran's not going to disrupt Brandon Ingram because Brandon Ingram isn't a early possession guy. He's the last eight seconds of the clock guy. go get your offense. So the ball could be a John Moran's hands. Let him go. Same thing for Scotty Barnes. Scotty Barnes, I already said it.

You don't have to run anything for Scotty Barnes, and he's going to go out there and do all kinds of things to help you in. So John Morant, like the upgraded talent as your primary ball handler, assuming, man, he shows up in Toronto with the right frame of mind. And like, he looks at that as like, okay, man, there's some talent here. These guys are in the mix. I'm going to play some meaningful playoff games this year. I'm super into this.

Like, let's go, almost like a new lease on life. And who knows if that's how he would show up? I don't know. But if he did, man, I'd consider it for that. That's not to me a ton to give up for the potential upside of this. Because look, here's the deal, Jack. What they currently have, as good as their year has been, what they currently have, like, it's not going to be enough.

to really challenge in the Eastern Conference to try to get out of the East. It's not enough. You're not going to go beat the Pistons with that. I don't think you're going to beat the Knicks with that. John Morant, playing next to Brandon Ingram with Scotty Barnes and a defensive kind of culture that's been created there,

that might be a hell of a lot more intriguing in terms of throwing the real scare into those teams. I might consider that if I were the Raptors. Now, I think they'd have a meeting about it for sure. I think Memphis might not consider it good enough to move. Maybe they would. Maybe they would and I don't know. And to your point,

like I keep saying this, there's a, like, Jaws contract is, as like, he has not played enough. Like, it's the most fundamental thing about these guys. They don't play. Right. 39, 42, 45 is like

substantially different than 5862 that Anthony Davis is making. It's just a much more palatable, and it's only two more years after this, the same length as Brandon Ingram. I'm like contractually, it's not that bad if he plays. He just doesn't play enough. So we'll see.

By the way, a note on Miami, by the way, I don't know if you've noticed this. I looked it up because it's just, it's hit me when I've watched them. We mentioned this offensive system, minimization of the pick and roll, all dribble drive, ISO, attack in space, all that super fast pace. For the season, they're running 19 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. That's by far the lowest number in the league. It's like it's half of anyone else and probably even less. Before December, so 19 per 100.

Before December 15th, that was that number was 14 and a half per 100. Since December 15th, it's up to 26. Still last, but like in sniffing distance of moderately normal. Since January 5th, which is only five or six games, it's up to 31. So we're approaching like not quite normal, but within spitting distance of like that looks almost like an NBA offense at times like a regular NBA offense. That might be Tyler Hero that coming back and playing more minutes and running more pick and roll. It might be the heat kind of smartly thinking we've squeezed all we can out of

being so extremely dogmatic about how we play. Let's try to sort of keep that as a bulwark, but diversify a little bit. It's just interesting something to monitor. All right. Ready to move on to, oh, by the way, on Janus. Just last thing. we mentioned waiting until the summer, the extension, the Hawks, what they could know if they wait until the summer, the heat, keeping assets intact, et cetera, et cetera. The playoffs are also going to matter. Like, some team, like, what if the Spurs flame out in the first round?

What if the Thunder flame out in the second round? What if the Rockets flame out in the first round? What if the Rockets lose in the play in? Like, some team that's really good right now and out of the honest race because they're so in love with their own players, and justifiably so. I support all those teams standing bad for now is going to come out of the playoffs,

maybe a little unhappy and maybe a little more itching to take a risk. Okay, let's talk about the game you called last night and the state of the Eastern Conference. Cleveland, Philly. It was an ink game. Philly got boat race. Darius Garland hurt his other foot. We don't have news on that.

Hopefully it's nothing because he was starting to look like Darius Garland again. Sam Merrill hurt his hand again. He's been big for them. And just more broadly, Tim Legler, The East is such a mess after the Knicks lost to the Kings last night, and Jalen Brunson left that game with the Spray and ankle, severity TBD. There are three games separating the Knicks at second and the Cavs in seventh in the Eastern Conference. And you mentioned how you don't think Toronto can win the East.

I don't either. But I'm interested to see sort of where that line is for you, like who can and who can't actually win the East. But let's talk about the Cavs who won that game last night. Let's just pretend we get news today. Garland's out two weeks. It's minor. It's no big deal. He'll be fine.

There's six and three in their last nine games with some quality wins over the spurs, the sons, the wolves, the zombie nuggets. Their offense and defense has both been better in that span. The ball, I thought, was really flying last night, really flying around. Donovan is Donovan. Tyson's been a godsend for them. Mowgli hit or miss. but, you know, very good player. Are the Cavs back on your list of teams,

or did they never leave? Like, yeah, this team could make the finals. Yeah, they've been in the mix the entire time for me, just because of, look, I love what the Pistons have done and are doing, and they just kind of picked up where they left off last year. I was so impressed with, and I called one of their playoff games last year against the Knicks, and just like, they gave the NICS everything they could handle,

and they're so young, the toughness is there. I was excited to see what they could become, you know, going into the season. I thought it was going to be Knicks, Cavs at the top, Pistons right there. Like, that's kind of how I thought the Eastern Conference standings would go. Pistons have upset all of that because they've been clearly the best team, most consistent team in the Eastern Conference. But they're still very young. They haven't won a playoff series together.

Like, there's another level to this. There's a progression to this. So that remains to be seen down the line. The Knicks, they've been a little bit underwhelming, kind of an up and down season. They've had some key injuries. They really just missed a stretch with Josh Hart. He's so important to what they do. He missed time.

As a result, they struggled. Carl Anthony Towns has been inconsistent lately offensively. So they had a little bit of a downturn. So they don't look like, okay, they're invincible. Like none of these other teams like Boston and the Cavs can possibly play with them. So that's why the Cavs never like disappeared to me. Disappointing for sure based on what they did last year. 64 wins, an absolute buzzsaw offensively.

number one rated team in the league at one point historically good offensively and there were nights that you flat out could not guard that team a year ago the big question was always going to be and they were pretty good defensively too it was just toughness mental and physical toughness when it really was time to lay it on the line did they have that could they break through that i still wonder about that i don't think that's really changed but you can't deny that this is still a team that if on any given night, no matter what you have defensively, no matter what your personnel is, your scheme is, your adjustments, it's futile against this team offensively. And last night was one of those nights for Philly. At no point to Philadelphia remotely come close to catching up to the ball. This was last night, Zach sitting there was like watching when a great team offensively plays well, that's what it looks like last night. And it started right out of the gate. they had an incredible winning against Minnesota two games ago, 146 points against the Timberals who have been hot. Then they had this horrific game against Utah.

We talked to Kenny Atkinson a lot about it before the game. We talked to Darius Garland about it before the game. And they all admitted it. It was embarrassing. Like, it just wasn't there. And Kenny Atkinson said they've had three games like that this year against teams that were like lottery type teams that weren't even playing everybody. And they didn't show up in the right state of mind. So this was another one of those.

I like the bounce back from that. They were accountable in the film session. Guys bought in. Donovan Mitchell bought in himself. And this was their response. And I thought this was an important game. And by the way, you want to hear a sad state of affairs act? We're halfway through the season, basically right at the midway point.

I've been calling games all year. Last night was the first game I've called all year where everybody was available, like at the top of the roster. First time, first game. Because I was excited about that. You're talking to the coaches before the game. You're like, who's playing? These guys playing, like, who's in, who's out?

Everybody played. And I'm like, this is awesome. And then I got that as a game to call because Cleveland was that good right out of the gate. The ball movement was exceptional, ton of dribble drive kicks and then a sixers trying to chase it, never catching up to it. And then, look, some of those sixers were flat, man. Maxie and Edgecombe provide the juice to the building.

Neither one of those guys did that. There was no barrage out of Maxie at any point. in the game. You didn't really even notice edgecombe. These guys are combining for 47 points at night. They had half of that. And be kind of decent game. A lot of it was free throws that that doesn't get the crowd going. Paul George played pretty well. Mid-range jumpers doesn't get the crowd going. Maxis bursts stringing together 10 quick points, couple deep threes and these crazy drives he has. You know, edgecombe because it is just like toughness, how cold-hearted he is as a rookie. None of that happened. So you get a really good.

good team playing great offensively, a solid team playing well lately, flat. That's what you get. The good news is they run it back tomorrow night. I'm calling the game again. And I expect a great response out of Philadelphia. So I'm assuming we're going to get a much better game. But Cleveland for me has never disappeared, Jack, from the radar of there's still a legitimate threat in the Eastern Conference, although I do still have questions about mental toughness when they have to have it in that big spot. I think that's a legitimate thing, but their offense is so good. It's not like there's this massive separation from these other teams at the top of the East and the Cleveland Cavaliers. Yeah. They didn't have weight and they still don't have Struz. And that's the sort of interesting

spot on their roster to me is that fifth starter, big wing, roving shooter kind of guy. We don't know when Struz is going to be available, if at all. They've concluded that Hunter in the starting five doesn't work. That that grouping doesn't play together very much. much. It did get on the court for a second last night. Merrill filling in has been successful, despite the fact that there's smaller three-guard lineups like Mitchell Garland, Merrill, Mitchell Garland, Craig Porter Jr., who I like, he's herky jerking and all that. I just think they're a little too small, but the Merrill one works, and he's like a really good screener for Evan Mobley in the pick and roll. I'm going to read you a fun step. Evan Mobley, out of almost 200 guys

who have run, run, handled on 100 pick and rolls or more of this. season. Evan Mobley is the most efficient of them all as a pick and roll ball handler. Like that part of his skill set, maybe he doesn't do it a lot. He's a big guy, but it's out there. Yeah, I had them, I had them fourth on my Eastern Conference power rankings last week, but as a team that could win the East. So I'm just going to name some teams and you tell me if they can make the finals. Cleveland, we've concluded yes. Detroit can make the finals. Clearly, yes. New York can make the finals. Clearly. Boston? I don't think so. Less look. there's a massive X factor out there with the Tatum situation.

Like, you know, we're going to have to wait and see. Tatum comes back, you know, there's degrees to this. He's going to be a high usage guy, he's going to have the ball a lot. Is he going to feel like himself? Is he going to be like normal? Is he going to be inefficient? That could change things for them. Or maybe it's, hey, it's better than anybody could expect him to be.

And he gets enough games under his belt going into the playoffs. That would change to me the way. I would have to recalibrate the way I view them as currently constructed. that if you don't get a really good version of Jason Tatum, I don't think they can make it all the way to the finals. Orlando. No. Okay.

And I'm disappointed to say that because going into the year, I had Cavs Nix at the top. I thought they would be the one-two seeds. I don't know how you couldn't think that the Cavaliers would be the one seat. Even if you don't think they could have got it done in the playoffs because they seemed to crash in the playoffs, even if you thought that, they won 64 games last year.

and they're running it back with the same team. So just by looking at the other things, I thought, okay, Cavs one seed, Knicks, two seed, Pistons three seed, Orlando four seed. Like that's what I had going in. And look, Orlando's sitting there at six and they're only two and a half games out of third.

So I guess they could still end up there. Wagner and Bencaro barely played together. So maybe they could, but no, there's something like missing about that team offensively, even with Bain playing better than he did when he first got there. it's just not good enough.

And Bain hasn't really, by himself, is not going to solve their three-point shooting problems. That's an issue, man. Their defense has been, you know, not as good as last year, but at times they show you, okay, it's pretty good. Other nights, it's not as good. So, no, for me, the inconsistency, the lack of continuity and the lack of three-point shooting,

I don't think that Orlando could make a run all the way through. They're still at the very bottom of my yes list, just because I think the upside is there. But, yeah. Philadelphia. Yes. I think Philly could. Despite what I watched last night, look, man, just look at, and with Edchcom being like years beyond what he should be from a maturity standpoint, he's a big game player. He's a shot maker late. He's contributes all over the floor, a lot of different ways that I think even Nick Nurse is probably surprised by his poison IQ. But he rebounds. He competes hard defensively. He can make plays for other people. He's a big shot maker and taker to go with Maxie, to go with MBE,

who's looked a lot better. Last night he didn't look great, although he had decent numbers. But the guys average at 28 in his last 11 in very limited minutes. He's still a dominant force. The explosiveness isn't there. I don't know if it's coming back. He had a play last night I talked about on the air. He got a rebound and went for a putback.

And he made a jumping motion. and then when his toes stayed on the ground. It was a really weird thing. He went up. He went up like he was going to go up and he was not going to dunk it, but he was going to probably shoot a little sort of jump hook, half hook off the glass over Mowbly. And he went to jump and his toes stayed on the ground.

The same thing happened in Toronto last week where he got the ball under the rim, I think on an offense rebound and kind of did these like weak little upfix as if he were a six-six guy trying to finish in traffic. He's like, dude, you're Joel unbeated. And then he got stuffed at the rim. And there was another play in that game last night where D'Andre Hunter had the ball coming up the right wing and transition. It was just him and Joelle. And Joelle was like there under the rim, like step for step.

And you thought, I've seen this guy go up and blocked this shot. And he just stayed on the ground and did nothing. But then there are moments where you see glimpses of it where he jumps a little higher. And you sort of have hope that something is coming. I'm a no on them making the finals because I just don't trust his health. for three rounds. It's interesting to me that you would have, you would still be holding on to that little bit of a yes for Orlando,

but not to Philly, man. I think, I think the talent level of Philly, the fit and sort of the, the multiple ways they can beat you offensively. They can beat you with three points shooting some nights. They can beat you with like transition play, especially with their smaller lineup.

And they can still get 20 to 30 out of Embed and drawing fouls and, putting his team in the bonus and all that. I just think there's more upside there. Like if it clicks and they're healthy at the right time, that's a dangerous team to me. And that's why I'm including them still as a team that could potentially do it. I just don't trust Joel to be on the floor for three straight playoff series.

That's all it is. Now, I will say you're right about the intrigue. They're plus 32 in only 248 minutes with Maxi, Georgian, and B'd all on the floor together. That looks like it fits. about as well as it looked like it should have fit last year when I was like, this is just a tailor made big three, different positions, different sizes, different skill sets. Paul George has brought all the way in to being a compliment and a role player. There was a play last night that I just absolutely loved.

When they ran Paul George off, Embedits set a pin down for him on the right sideline. The play was for Paul George to come out and shoot a jump shot. Jared Allen was on Embeddead. Jared Allen lunged out to try to guard Paul George or disrupt the pass to Paul George. The pass never came. Edgecom had the ball, I think. Paul George saw Jared Allen jump out in front of him and just said, you know what? This isn't a pin down for me anymore. I'm going to set a back screen on Jared Allen because my guy's chasing me. He's on my back, Sam Merrill. Jared Allen's in front of me now. I'm going to get in between them and screened

Jared Allen from behind. And he motioned with his head like, yo, behind me, Joel's open now. Pass the ball to Joel. And Joel got this wide open little 12-foot baseline jumper. And this lineup of Maxi, Edgecombe, Grimes, Georgian, Embed, it's a little small. It's a little sort of uncertain on how it should play. It's a very fast lineup other than Joelle, which is the true of most Sixers' lineups with Maxi and Edgecombe and Joel. It's only played 42 minutes together. I'm intrigued by that.

Trade-wise, they actually have some assets to play with. They can trade two first-round picks. Daryl's always looking. and just trade-wise going up and down the east, I think the Knicks are going to try to do something where they turned Yabusele plus Dottier, plus some seconds, into a player that makes a little bit less money

than those guys do combined, but can play for them. Someone throughout Dairon Sharp, I think Daryron Sharp's been better than that trade package. Zaire Williams was thrown out to me. Like, I could see that. A couple people have wondered, are they going to trade Mitchell Robinson

because he's a free agent this summer? I just like, if I'm trying to win the championship right now, I can't trade that guy, despite all the health uncertainty and everything, unless I get something really good in return. Because his offensive rebounding is like a whole thing. It's a, the skill that he provides, that one very unique thing that he provides is such a game changer. And you're talking about the margins here being, can this guy help us in a second half of an important playoff game, like win a game? because he got a six extra possessions on the offensive glass. And in a team like that, you know,

what damage that can mean if the ball that's extra possessions for Brunson or Carl Anthony Towns or Bridges, whatever. And then obviously the force that he is defensively and his ability to jump out and guard smaller guys, and he's just so much quicker defensively than cat on those switchouts. But mainly it's the offensive rebound. It gets such a critical component to winning playoff games that I agree with you.

It's almost like, well, we just got to live with it, man. Maybe he's there. Maybe he's not. But no one else can come close to replicating that. I think Boston is going to hunt for another big man that can play. And the questions they have to ask themselves is, is Simon's going out in that deal? Or is his last two or three weeks where he's looked more comfortable a game changer for us? And how much money can we add or do we have to subtract?

Those are the sort of trade landscape questions in the East that I think are interesting in this conversation. But yeah, Philly, they're interesting, man. They're a great story, much better than I thought they would be. All right. The last thing I wanted to do with you is, well, there's some other trade stuff. Well, we'll get to that. I wanted you to pick your biggest surprise and biggest disappointment of the NBA season. Let's start happy. Let's do Tim Legler's biggest surprise of the NBA season. I said it could be a team or a player. I went with teams. I'm sorry, I had a hard time differentiating. So I'll do shorter on two teams. Is that okay? Can I do two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. It's Boston and Phoenix. All right. So just do Boston,

because I'm about to do Phoenix with Nikias Duncan. So give me Boston, which is on my list, too. There's just no way that you could have told me going into the season, knowing you're not going to have Tatum, if not the whole year, certainly until the very end of the season, that you were going to be able to pull off what they've pulled off and being situated at third and Eastern Conference despite losing him. So what has happened to make that happen? I think one of the things is, things is, I've always been a big Jalen Brown fan. I like how hard the guy competes. He likes to defend. He takes on challenges. Been a really good player in this league for a long time. For him to dial it up to almost a 30 point a game scorer, like to be able to do that. Like, you know,

it's, it's almost harder, Zach, to go from like eight to 17. Like some guys make that leap. And you're like, wow, man, that guy, like doubled a scoring average. And you're like, yeah, but, you know, obviously it was an increased opportunity for that player. And like, usually that's a young player that does that. And like, you're like, okay, he's still expanding his game. Then it is to go from like 23 to 30. It's like to take it to that level. And to do it that consistently has really surprised me. Because look at the rest of the roster. I mean, you're talking about, you know, Derek White's a really, really good player. But that's like now you're, that's like clear. That's your second best offensive player like every night is Derek White.

and he hasn't really shot the ball particularly well this year. And yet there they are, third and eastern conference. And you got Peyton Pritchard, who was a sixth man, right? And now he's this guy starting. And you're like, okay, that's our third best offensive player. Peyton Pritchard. Amfordy Simons, you bring in. And then after that, you're talking about absolute hit or miss role players

that aren't even firmly in the rotation for, like, their careers, haven't been firmly in the rotation for teams. And now this is like your next, like four through nine. Add all that up, there's no way you could predict the Boston Celtics. Look, I didn't think they'd go away.

I didn't think the Pacers were going to completely go away either. All right? Those two teams are looking at those injuries to Halliburton and Tatum. I thought, you know what, man, the Pacer's team went to the finals. And there's a,

there's a culture of the way they play, still hard to guard. They've obviously, you know, just gone off the rails. Boston was the other team. I'm thinking like, at best,

this is a 500. team waiting for Tatum at best. So that to me has been the most pleasant surprise of the season looking at their roster, look at what Jalen Brown has done to his game to turn it into this. The contributions they've gotten from other guys who are typically role players outside of Derek White. It's been incredible to me. I think finally, I think a lot of people are going to, even though the guys won a championship,

I think people are finally like appreciating Joe Missoula. Like this is what it took for people to. kind of appreciate what Joe Missoula has done and can be as a coach. And that's a shame because I've always been a big admirer of his. I think a lot of people question certain things. I think he's really erased a lot of that with the job he's done with this team. For sure. They were on my list of surprises were Boston, Phoenix, Philly, Toronto, mild surprise for Toronto. I had the under on Boston at 41 and a half. I just thought they'd be like a 38 and 44 win kind of team. Tells about right. Completely agree on Missoula, making this a top three

offense being ahead of the curve on the possession game, valuing possessions. And I think, like, that's got a lot of attention. Defensively, they've only been okay, given their personnel, 10th, 10th, 12th, 13th is pretty good. And no team, I just love the way he's like, if they're playing a team that has anybody who's a so-so to non-shooter, they're the most aggressive. We're just not guarding you. How about that?

How about deal with that, Isaac Acora? We're not guarding you at all. And they're just ahead of the curve with that. For my surprise, I went a little shorter term. The Denver Nuggets being six in three without Yokic and without Valenciunis for almost all that but one game. Without Murray for three of those nine games. Without Christian Brown for six of those nine games.

Without Aaron Gordon for a handful of those nine games is like astonishing to me. Peyton Watson is averaging 24 points a game in that stretch. He's shooting 60% on long twos for the season. and he's getting buckets on ISOs, on pick and rolls, hunting smaller guys in transition, shooting well from three. He looks like a guy who's going to get paid this summer, who they may not be able to afford to keep. But more than that, Murray, you talked about last night in the broadcast, has to be in the

All-Star game. No questions asked. He's been unbelievable. To me, I talked about Minnesota as a title contender hiding in plain sight. Like, that's just not discussed as a team that could win four playoff series. I think they can. I think they will make a trade on the. the fringes to upgrade their backcourt rotation.

You ask me to guess what's going to happen to them. I think they'll do something at like Dillingham plus a little salary, plus just whatever they can trade to get a decent guard in there that can round out their rotation. But I think they could get to the finals. But my other take is like, I don't think Denver is a title contender hiding in plain sight. I think Denver is a juggernaut hiding in plain sight. I think they are as good as the Oklahoma City Thunder, given the way the Thunder

have played in the last month. I think Denver fully healthy. Yokatch back, Aaron Gordon playing well, is toe to toe with the Thunder as the best team in the NBA. I totally agree with everything you said about Denver, which to me, one of the most interesting dynamics of this NBA season that's happened over here over the last month is the conversation has gone from the inevitability of the Thunder repeating, which that's what it looked like at the start of the year. You're like, who's beating this team four times in a seven game series, despite the fact that they had two seven games series last year to win a championship and a game seven in which Halliburton goes down early when he's cooking.

So who knows what that would have turned out to be, but still come back again, defense is the same, bunch of young guys have a different offseason than they've ever had. They're champions. They're young. They all got paid. And you're like, okay, there's probably going to be maybe some hiccups here at the start of the year because there's a different feeling for all of these guys.

and all they do is come out and they don't lose. It was one game in two months. And you're like, okay, it's really not a question of can anybody win the West? The question else win the West. The question is, what's the group of teams and make an argument for those teams and who can be the last team standing against the thunder in the Western Conference? And now because of the vulnerability of Oklahoma City, now that conversation has change. I think now you're going, okay, can somebody else represent the West in the NBA

finals? And I think Denver would be the most likely team, most logical team. You'd go there. And I agree, six and three without Yokic. That was a tough stretch coming up. And they're six and three. Incredible. They're going to weather the storm more than weather the storm. They're like thriving. I put the over under. If you miss, I said, if he missed 15 games, I'm going to put the over under on Denver wins at six and a half. That's what I said to your guy, Adam Morris, like, six and nine, seven and eight. Holy smokes, am I going to be wrong on that? And like the stuff they've discovered on Watson,

Pickett is shooting 40-something percent on threes. He looks like a guy you can play for them in the playoffs. Naji looks like a guy can at least throw out there and he can do some stuff. For me, Spencer Jones has been solid all year. Like, they can take this, add it to the team they already had. And like I said before the season, the championship is Denver versus Oklahoma City.

obviously the spurs butted into that conversation. I think the Rockets butted into it and they've slumped a little bit lately they'll get back into it. Minnesota's right there. Someone's got to win the east.

I still think these are the two best teams. I think Denver, what they've proven without Yokic, schedule has been great. They face a lot of mediocre to bad teams. They've missed so many other guys. It's not just Yokic,

just all these other guys who have been in and out of the lineup. It's just massively impressive. Give me, before you go, disappointment of the year. I had two quick ones. Indiana and Cleveland Cleveland. I didn't expect Indiana, and 13-game losing streak. I mean, I know they've had guys

hurt, but I mean, everybody's got guys hurt in this league. It's just, it's the theme of the league. Seaccomas actually played and played very well this year. That should add up to nine wins. So I didn't expect them to completely fall off the map this year without Halliburton. I didn't see that coming. And then Cleveland, even though I said, I'm still going to consider them in the mix in the east, but I expected them to be sitting here at the midway point of the season with like a four or five game cushion in the Eastern Conference as the one seed. Like, that's a that's what I thought they would be. And if you say, hey, they're only a regular season team. Fine. We are in the regular season. And that's why I thought based on what they did a year ago,

even without Strues, I expected them to be right there at the top of the pack. Now, Detroit's been fantastic. But, okay, so let's say, worst case, like a two seat at this point, didn't think there be that many teams in front of the Cleveland Cavaliers. They've been disappointing for me, coming off a 64 win season with most of those guys back and playing most nights. The starting lineup hasn't been together a whole lot, but still for me, sitting here a few games over 500 halfway point in the season. I think I have to label that as a disappointment. So those would be the two for me.

Tribute to the Pistons, by the way, that I didn't even think about them as a surprise team. I mean, for them to be 28 and 10 with the best point differential in the east now is at least a mild surprise. They're still my most interesting trade deadline team. I don't want to belabor it. I've debated it almost every episode. I think they should do at least a little something to upgrade their shooting, but maybe they won't do it.

My biggest disappointment of the year, despite their recent play, remains the Clippers. And, you know, look, they're 16 and 20, 17 and 23. They're about to crack the play in mix. For them to be this expensive and start off that poorly, starting right out of the gate by getting drubbed in Utah and looking like they didn't even realize the season it started. They're still disappointment in the year. But they're coming and they're playing well. Tim Legler, best in the business. Don't know how you tolerate RJ, but you do it.

Tell Mike Breen, I said, let's go Mets, and I'll see you around the block. We'll do, man. Always great being on. I'm sure I'll talk to you. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone. But if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food. Or, hey, takeouts on me.

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collectibles and vintage cars to designer fashion, it's all there. Millions of finds, each with a story. eBay, things people love. soon. And now to talk about what I think is really my biggest surprise pick of the year. A little under the radar, but not under our radar. The Phoenix Suns, Nikias Duncan is here, 24 and 16, a team that doesn't get a lot of national attention even now that you see you got to stay up late to lot, late to watch.

You got to figure out like how are they actually doing this. We're going to dive deep into, I think, the happiest story of the NBA season. But before we get there, I got to spring this on you. I forgot to talk about this with legs. Okay. What, if anything, did we learn from Thunder Spurs 4? Thunder Spurs, yes, it's a rivalry. And not only that, it's reached a point where I now write it down in Roman numerals by matchup.

Thunder Spurs four, Thunder get revenge. Shea goes crazy. They blow out the Spurs in Oklahoma City. We have some fun Wembe Chet moments. Chet Quiet game, eight points, but I thought he was great on defense. Did the Thunder figure anything out? What happened here? figure something out.

I think on a basic level, it helps when they knock down shots from the perimeter to kind of loosen things up for them offensively with Wimby roaming around the paint all over the place. I think for me it was more so little things with OKC that I was kind of keeping track of.

Like one of the early things that pop for me with Shay in particular, if you watch him, you know he has his own cadence, like he likes to get into the hesitations and all the pump fakes to get guys off guard. It felt like three or four minutes into that game.

He decided actually just no fakes. Whenever I see a shot pocket, I'm just going straight up for it. And so, like, watching his internal clock kind of speed up was fun for me. And then naturally, once you get into the second and third, and the shot making really started popping from him, it was just game over from that point. So, like, that part was interesting to me.

And then the other thing, and my guy, Steve, hit on this on our most recent episode of the Dunker Spot, talking about how the spurs want to keep Wimby low on the floor. It did feel like as the game went on, the Thunder were more intentional about, okay, if Wimby's going to be in the corner, we're going to be a little bit more intentional about who we have in the corner. let's try to complicate some of those

rotations that Wimby wants to make. So those are probably the two major things, like missing Vaseel on one side, missing Isaiah Hartin's side on the other side. Like I didn't want to take too much from the matchup outside of this is awesome. But those were a couple of micro things that stood out to be where it felt like,

OKC may be figuring some things out against San Antonio if that matchup comes up again. And of course, A.J. Mitchell missed two of the three Thunder losses in this series and was back and played very well on both ends of the floor in that game. By the way, just A.J. Mitchell related to I looked this up this morning.

Mitchell, Caruso, SGA, J-Lan Williams, J-dub, Chet Holmgren. In my head, they rolled that game out, that lineup out, I think, for a half of, for like a minute in that game. In my head, I was like, is that the best Thunder lineup? Like, I know it doesn't have Kason Wallace, so doesn't have Hardinstein, doesn't have Doort, what an embarrassment of riches. That lineups only played five possessions the entire season so far. flagging that. I think you

absolutely nailed it in your second point. There's a lot of attention in these games on who is Wembe guarding and who's Chet guarding. Are they guarding each other? Do they have a wing guarding Wembenyama? Why are they doing that? Wemigniama is really guarding nobody

in these games. He's sort of just staying along the baseline near the basket, toggling between whoever is closest to him. And right away at the start of that game, Shea was in the corner a couple times. They put Wallace in the corner a bunch of times. Just like,

we're going to put our best shooters and some of our best players down here instead of Caruso, instead of Dort. And by the way, this might be a mean-ish thing to say. Did it help that Dorrit was out in this matchup? Like, this is not a great matchup for Dort. I'm not sure, like, there's not a great

guy for him to guard, and he's an easy guy for Wembe Nama to guard. But I completely agree that they sort of came out with a game plan of, we know where Wembe's going to be. we're going to put guys strategically there that can hurt them if they're being unguarded in the corner. Yeah, like I think to the door point, I think on the high end, the answer is no to that because I do think his ability to guard. And if you do want to put wings on Wimby, you want people to disrupt this base. Like he can factor into some of that as well.

And I will say, like, the shopmaking hasn't been what it was the last couple of years, but he can always heat up. And some of the drives have been kind of interesting from him this year. So, like, I think there's still a place for him. But you do feel to the lineup that you mentioned a little bit earlier, when it's like, like AJ Mitchell in this place. Like that is just another creator, another guy that can drive all the way. Because I think something that stood out to me, stood out to Steve. I think you've also pointed out when talking about these Thunder Spurs matchups,

the possessions where you have a closeout attack and Case and Wallace is not even looking at the rim. He's just trying to keep it moving instead of maintaining that advantage. Like, AJ Mitchell is a guy, like I am not afraid of anyone. Not the Casey & Wallace is afraid to be clear. But AJ Mitchell is a lot more aggressive as a scorer naturally. And so you kind of feel those moments as well where I can get all the way downhill for a basket for myself or get to the free throw line,

or at the very least, I'm driving deeper into the paint. That's another thing that popped in their first quarter as well. Like some of the late cutting from OKC that you saw, Wimby staying low, we're going to drive deeper into the paint. Wemby is going to try to block the shot, and behind him comes this slot cut. And Wembe can't recover out that quickly. So, like, they're figuring out ways to get to the rim

a little bit more in thread things. That's probably the bigger picture thought. I wondered also if the Thunder were overthinking, defensive matchups a little bit when it was Chet one big versus Wembe one big and just would Chet guard Wemby more that didn't really happen on cross matches that happened here and there

and Wembe really enjoyed that in the first quarter of the game had a couple dunks, one that he made, one that he missed on Chet's head. But Chet acquitted himself defensively, I thought fine, offensively, though quiet. I did think the Spurs, like when they say C.J. Dub on Wembe Nama or Kenrich Williams on Wembe Nama or Caruso on Wembe Nama, you know, the whole

point of that is we think a smaller guy can get up under his shit a little bit and disrupt him. But also, like, we're going to complicate your pick and roll attack because we might be able to switch a Fox Wemby pick and roll and take you out of that game. And I think the spurs, despite the fact that they got blown out in Oklahoma City, I think the spurs were a little smarter about like, we actually don't care that you're doing that and we can still run pick and roll with Wembenyama. If you're going to switch, we can have them slip to the rim and do damage that way. or we can bring Harrison Barnes into the pick and roll

if you've got Chet on him or Luke Cornet. I'm sorry, you've got a backup center on him, whoever it is, Big Jalen Williams. And if you switch, Fox can torch you there. If not, like you drop Fox can torch you there. We can run Wembe off a pin down screens. Like we'll have Kaysen Walsh's guys set a pin down for Wemby. Switch that.

Switch that and see how that works out for you. I thought they were a little smarter about that despite the blowout. I just think this is so awesome for the league. It is clearly a rivalry. I understand the old school, like Reggie Miller on the game. Like, you got to play in the playoffs before it counts as rivalry. For sure, that intensifies it. But this is the initial stage of what is going to be the defining rivalry of the NBA,

hopefully for the next five or ten years. There's clearly a Chet Wemby thing, and it's freaking awesome. Like, we need more of this in the league. And Shea letting out that cathartic yell toward the crowd in the third quarter was awesome. I just want more and more and more. Okay. You're the perfect person to talk about Phoenix about because 24 and 16, 14th on offense, sixth on defense.

They've gotten a very good Devin Booker season, but not like a lights out, shooting lights out, anyway, Devin Booker season. I think the defense and the passing have been pretty close to peak Booker ability. But I do think there's a, I think this is an interesting time. Like, they've gotten a lot of kudos for like hardest playing team in the league, on a string defensively. Dylan Brooks cultural transformation. They're all up in you on defense, blah, blah, blah.

All that is very true. Their sheer effort level is 5% to 10% above the team they're playing almost every single night. It's one of the reasons why they're an elite offensive rebounding team because it's not just Mark Williams, who's a one-man offensive rebounding team by himself. It's Jordan Goodwin rebounding like he's eight feet tall. It's crashing the class. It's setting hard screens. It's all that. But effort can only get you so far in the NBA.

And I think you and I would both agree that when you go down player for player, talent-wise, after you get by Booker, it doesn't feel like a 24-and-16 kind of roster. But it has been a 24-and-16 kind of roster. In fact, if you look at the on-off data, almost all their core rotation guys have really solid plus-minus numbers, whether it's also a Godoro off the bench, Colin Gillespie's minutes without Booker had been pretty good. like it's a well-balanced team. Let's start with their offense, because their defense has been elite and we'll get there. 14th in offense, given everything I just said about their talent level,

it's not great, but that's, I think, a win for the Suns to be an average to a slightly above-average offensive team. They don't get to the line. They turn the ball over a lot. Their shot selection, they don't get to the rim very much. They're 28th and shots at the rim,

but they are taking a lot. a lot of threes, and they have been a good shooting team from all over the place this year. What the hell is happening? How is this team a good offense? I think you start with what Jordan Nott has worked to establish, and I think there's an overall empowerment and the level of accountability and a level of trust that he has brought with this group. And so as you mentioned at the top, Devon Booker's been very good this year. One of my early thoughts about the sons heading into like training camp precese and et cetera is, are we going to get the quote unquote heliocentric Devin Booker year, where it's just going to be him running a whole bunch of pick and roll,

and we get to see 30 and 8, and they win 28 games, but we get to see Pete Booker. And what was established very early on, you look at even some of the preseason tape, was, yeah, Devin Booker is going to initiate, but we are going to explore the entire Devin Booker toolkit. It is still going to be Devin Booker off of pin downs, Devin Booker off of those wide actions early in offense, Devin Booker lifting up from the baseline and curling around the free throw line area, making decisions there. in addition to mix again that traditional pick and roll stuff. And within that, if you're going to have this much Devon Booker off ball,

that is where Royce O'Neill initiated more offense matters. That is where Colin Gillespie started the last 19 games. Next, he's taking on more ownership of playmaking. Dylan Brooks will bring the ball up the floor and get them into their offense. And so they have a level of trust, Mark Williams, when they go into delay in some of the high handoff stuff just to kind of get things going. They allow everyone to kind of touch it. And like it's very cliche, like, you know, ball movement,

all that good stuff, like you want to have a team that fuels the ball and things like that. But it really works. And it helps having a versatile star late Devon Booker to where you can build the boat around not just pick and role play, not just shooting, but a little bit of everything. And once you get that with Royce O'Neill doing, shooting the leather off the ball, but again, the play making pops for him, especially when he screens for Devin Booker. Grayson Allen, another guy that wasn't a start lineup now coming out the bench, but you can fly him off screens.

He can initiate. He's driving more than he ever has. I think it was 10 drives per 100 possessions last year. It's up to 17 this year. Like when you have all those guys that, like, actually I can do this. Dylan Brooks and all of this going to, he's doing, I know we're going to get there. It makes it easier for you to get office from everywhere

and it makes it more difficult for teams to kind of key in on Devin Booker and shut them down. Yeah, there's just value in side to side with purpose, right? Like moving the ball to the second side to the third side at a high rate of speed with like decisive screening, hard cutting. it's why like look the Bulls are 20th in offense they don't have a ton of offensive talent at the very least they make you move around

on defense and the sons do that too and Grace and Allen coming back is a big deal like the sons are minus two per 100 possessions with Booker on the bench plus five with him on the floor those bench minutes I think get a lot more palatable if Grace and Allen and Gillespie

are both part of the them. And we'll see what happens when Jalen Green, if Jalen Green went and if he comes back. But I think like everyone is just playing really well. Like they're running sets for Colin Gillespie. They're running like Booker pick and roll and Mark Williams instead of rolling to the rim, rolls into a pin down on the left side of the floor for Colin Gillespie to shoot a three or take the ball into the middle of the floor and keep the machine moving. Royce O'Neill is shooting like a million threes per 36 minutes and shooting 40%. Mark Williams, who I've always been a fan of, the health concerns were what they were,

he hasn't been great, but he's been, like, you can see some stuff happening on offense. He made a soft little jump hook the other night on a switch and looked very comfortable doing it. And then there was a fast break where I can't remember who it was. Someone passed him the ball in the middle of the floor in a little bit of traffic on the fast break the other night. I can't remember who they were playing. At like the three point line, maybe a little bit above it. And I was like, oh, this is not going to end one.

well. This is a lot of work for Mark Williams, seven-footer. And just like soft one dribble layup. And I was like, oh, right, Mark Williams. Like, they just have a bunch of guys. A lot of people have talked about Igadaro and the fact that they get a different defensive identity when he's on the floor. They can go from a drop team to a switch everything team. And it's hurt their rebounding a little bit, although their rebounding has been actually

good when Igadar was on the floor. But just his passing from the elbows, they're just like squeezing. everything out of this group of guys. And Jordan Ott can't get enough phrase. Coach of the year is between him in Missoula for me right now. I don't know. What else is interesting to you on offense? Howard, they're generating a lot of

threes. That's good. Offensive rebounding is good. Like, they're just a solid team. I think the threes and the offensive rebound is what I want to hang on for a little bit. I think to the sons and with Jordan Ott in particular, like, the biggest compliment I can pay to them watching them

this year is that they've kind of made me rethink some core principles that I have about like what works with basketball because generally I've kind of been of mind a team is either going to be a crash-to-glass team. We're going to try to get those extra opportunities and we're just at risk it getting burned in transition or we're going to prioritize getting back in transition and we just don't care about the extra opportunities on the offense of glass. The way that the suns are able to tag up so shot goes up, we are finding bodies more so than like finding an area on the floor. They have been so consistent with that all year long. And this is where you get these one-on-ones with Ryan Dunn when he comes off the bench. You mentioned Dylan Brooks and the other guards

take a flying for these offensive rebounds. And if they don't get it, Guy gets a defensive rebound and turns around. He already has a member of the Phoenix Suns in his face. So you don't get the early grab and go opportunities. You don't get the quick hit of heads not as often anyway to be able to attack in that way. And so the fact that they are what, top five in offensive rebound rate and they have been one of the best transition defenses in the league this year. Since Christmas, it's a 97 defensive rating and transition, which is, that is an unsustainably low number, but it also just speaks to, yeah, when we nail our principles, we're getting extra opportunities and you don't get any of the easy stuff, which allows

us to set our half-court defense, which again, we're going to get there later. But that has been super impressive to me. And to the three-point shooting, watching all these guys just let it fly has been a joy for me. They are one of the highest three-point rate teams in the league. they are the only team in the NBA that's taking at least 50% of the shots from three. So they very much nailed the margin in that regard as well. So again, I think a lot of that is coaching, but the players have to take the shots, the players have to make the shots, and largely the sons have done that this year.

And they've done it with Grayson Allen. The best three-point shooter on the team, I mean, historically, missing a lot of games. And, you know, they've already shown in crunch time since he comes back, since he came back. He's kind of like their sixth starter. Like their first sub of every game will be Grace and Allen for Gillespie. And at the end of games, like the Booker, Grace and Allen two-man game with Grayson Allen screening and doing who knows what every sets of pick, he could roll, he could flare out this way, that way is like super dangerous. Defensively, they're sixth in the NBA, sixth with a relatively untested center in the middle of it. And a lot of guards, like they're not a big team, which is one of the reasons why they're 23rd in defensive rebound.

And they're just kind of small. But they're tenacious as all hell. they're on a string completely. Like when they rotate, they rotate together. No one is messing up their rotations. No one's pausing to be like, all right, that guy went there. Where do I go?

No, they're like completely on a string. They force a ton of turnovers, which is critical for the possession game, obviously, but they foul a lot. But if you're going to foul a lot, this is the upside you've got to get. You've got to take the ball from the other team a lot, and they're doing that,

which is helping their offense. Are they getting a little lucky with opponent shooting? maybe like their fifth in three point percentage, opponent three point percentage, and they're 26th in opponent percentage at the rim. So opponents are feasting at the rim. And my worry about that would only be that rim defense is a little bit more controllable than three point defense. So like the 26th at the rim might be indicative of some structural issue with their team, whether it's Mark Williams still learning his way and chasing some blocks that he shouldn't chase

and leaving the boards naked behind him or just being small or switching a lot and whatever. And fifth and threes might just be a little bit lucky. But even if those things turn out to be a little bit true in both directions, this is a top 10 defense, just the effort level, the switchability, where they put Brooks and Dun and O'Neill out there at the same time at the two, three, and the four and just can switch everything there.

It's really powerful. I just think this is a rock solid defense. I don't know schematically if you've seen anything interesting. You want to talk about how they're doing this, but sixth in defense is a home run for this team. Yeah, I think it starts literally at the beginning of possessions. They are one of the top five teams in terms of how often they're picking someone up in the back court. And because of how good those guards and those wings are and they're pressuring the ball,

it's not token pressure. Like, we are getting into you. We can turn you over there as well. In terms of how quickly teams get across half court, third slowest. In terms of how quickly they get into their actions against the Suns, third slowest mark in the league. And so they bleed the clock early. And then, as you mentioned, they get into this switchability.

They get into this level of cross-matching. Like, as you were talking a little bit about Mark Williams, one of the things that popped early for me with him, like one, he's just on the court. So I'm glad to see him playing. But beyond that, they would mix in. Let's put you on this non-shooting wings so we can keep you low on the floor.

When you are directly involved in pick and roll, it's not always going to be a deep drop. Sometimes he's up at the level. Yeah, he's up being aggressive. We're going to creep you up to the level. level and if this turns into a late switch, we are going to trust you to do that. Like, 40 switches on the year doesn't sound like a lot, but you look at some of the Charlotte numbers, like that is pretty high for him.

And like a lot of that, part of that is going to be him being injured and missing time. But the fact that they trust him to do that sometimes, I think it leads into your rebounding question as well. But it's a level of trust that they have in him. And so it is difficult for teams to get into their actions. When you look at what the sons are doing off the ball, like I wish I had a number to track this, but they certainly feel like one of the higher like top block teams than the if you are trying to set up a pin down or stag or something,

we are sliding directly in front of you. You have to cut back door. We're going to be grabby to your foul point. Physicality. Like, we're going to annoy the shit out of you. And we're going to make you give up sometimes. Like, all right, I guess this isn't the possession for this. We're just not running this this time.

Yeah, they just bleed you dry. And to your point, you have this starting unit and then you go to the bench. And, oh, God, now it's Jordan Goodwin, who's also going to pressure us full court. Here's Ryan Dunn that can defend multiple positions. Here's also a Godoro. We can ramp up the activity if we would have them at the level. and turn those into flat-out hedges or blitzes sometimes,

or we're just flat-out switching everything, we're going to flatten you out that way. And so the fact that they have this kind of streamlined rotation with what they want to do defensively, it's been really impressive. I certainly believe in it. They also just have no weak links. There's no one really that you can pick on.

Now, like, Grayson Allen is not great, but he's big and he's tough and he's physical. Gillespie's pretty big for his position. You can't really pick on him that much. Booker has been good defensively now for a while. He's just a good defensive player. By the way, I think I made a mistake not having Booker on my All-Star roster. I have to remove somebody to get him on because I just think the amount of attention he draws on offense.

Like he's in these games, I've watched him recently against Miami and another team that I'm blanking out on that had a guard that he felt like I can hunt this guy every single time. And you're going to have to be like it's not that he's that much bigger or even that much. quicker than Tyler Hero, but he is a little quicker and he's just so much more powerful and comfortable in the mid-range that you're going to have to send people at him and everyone else is open. I think I got to remove somebody. I just like, who am I supposed to remove? Denny Obdia's got to be on the team and I don't want to hear about Portland's record.

The only reason their record is even near where it is is because of him. Kawai? Because of Miss games? Maybe I remove him. Chet was a popular choice among Phoenix fans who are like, if you're going to have, you can have Chet over Booker? Like, Chet's a distant second option. Like, I don't know. I got to think about it, but I do think I was wrong and that Booker needs to be on the All-Star team representing the Suns. No, I think that's fair. Like, I would probably go Booker over Kauai. I am very much

a games play stickler when it comes to these kind of things. Like, I know it doesn't count for the All-Star game. But if I'm already thinking about all NBA and the war stuff anyway, I just kind of want to have that consistent for me. So that's probably the one. But as you mentioned some of the mismatch hunting and things, I did want to ask you a question. How do you feel about the Suns against Switches offensively? I feel like you're leading me somewhere. I mean, off the top of my head, other than Booker, I don't feel great, but I bet like Gillespie, just taking stepback threes over big guys on Switches and Grace and Allen doing the same thing.

Mark Williams' post games got a little better. Are you going to tell me that they're better than by the numbers than I would suspect by the talent. They don't have the classic blow-by perimeter guy or the 6-8 Kauai-sized wing who can just put small guys in the basket, but I bet they're

pretty good. They haven't been good this year, at least statistically. Well, okay, fine. But no, the reason I wanted to ask is because I'm in a headlock with it. Because I think if you're projecting Phoenix forward, I think the offense is the thing that you poke at. And I think because Devin Booker is like your only

a minus a plus advantage creator, it's easy to say, they face a good defense in the playoffs, they're just going to switch flatten things out and how are they going to create? And looking at it on Perk cleaning the glass, it's a 110.5 offensive rating against top 10 point differential teams so far this year.

That's one of the worst offenses in the league. And so that's where I'm like, I don't like this. This is an indicator that's going to be bad. But they do have Devin Booker. And he is so good at winning matchos. It was like, do we get to a point to where he's so good it doesn't matter and or because they're also so good

on the offensive glass, even if they don't make the initial. shots and that brings some of the numbers down, they're getting extra bites at the Apple anyway, and they're able to offset it, and then their defense is just really good. So it's more so like a playoff question for me. I wasn't trying to trick. But it's not only a playoff question, it's a bigger picture question. As Sun's fans would delight in telling me, I had the under on this team at 34 and a half. I just didn't trust, first of all, the West is the West. And second of all, I was just like, who is creating offense on this team if Devin Booker misses 25

games or when Devin Booker is on the bench for 15 to 18 minutes a game. I just don't know how they're generating offense. And this was before Jalen Green got hurt. And they've answered that question well enough with Gillespie, particularly Gillespie, but like Jordan Goodwin will go out there and mess things up. And they've just been, Jailen Green will come back, Grayson now. And they've answered it well enough. And in that sense, I've said this before, but, you know, when we talk about these,

like this came up when the Yonah's stuff was noisy about a month ago. these superstar trades that four picks, four swaps for a 30-whatever-year-old, that the sons were cautionary tale number one around the league, having traded Bridges and Johnson and a million picks and swaps for a 35-year-old Kevin Durant. Not that Janus is 35. He's not. He's 30 or 31. And a trade I didn't love at the time, but, you know, there was this idea that it's

Durant. You have to do it. Well, do you have to do it? And yeah, they are a cautionary tale for that reason. But I've said this, I said this about a month ago. They should also be almost an inspirational tale in that they have rebounded from that hell so fast based on effort, character, defense, a singular superstar left over, yes. But all of that stuff plus coaching, they're not just like a cute, hey, they're going to win 38 games and maybe make the plan. They're 24 and 16.

And they've sustained through the harder part of their schedule start up very easy. It's been hard the last two of the weeks. They've sustained it through that. They've had a lot of good wins in this stretch. And they're like straight up bad news for a team like the Lakers, who are what, two games in the loss column ahead of them right now, none in the win column, so a game above them, and feel like entitled to a top six spot.

You're not entitled to anything because Phoenix is not going away. And in that sense, yeah, they gave up all this stuff for a team that flamed out spectacularly. But here they are. They're back. They're competitive. The fans love the team. Like you can get to competitive. in the NBA

if you have the right kind of ingredients. On the other hand, your playoff switchability question, it is interesting to zoom out, like this feels great right now for the Suns. Suns fans should be thrilled with their team. They still don't control any of their picks through 2032. Mala Watch is basically not played this year

other than garbage time. Rishir Fleming showed some flashes in the last month or so, particularly defensively. He's interesting. Mark Williams is good. you know, it is fair to sort of wonder, like, where is this going long term? How do they actually pivot to becoming a very good to great team again? But for now, I'm like, okay, tabling that question.

I think it's still a fair question and your point about their performance against playoff offenses, I think gets at it. But for me, it's still the good side of this that weighs out. Like, they went from cautionary tale to, yeah, maybe they are, but we can also take positive lessons from what they've done. in just the last eight months. They've built a competitive team like this. Yeah, I think to that end, the vibes were so bad last year. Like, even if they did end up being like 36 and 46,

like you probably take it if there's a level of enjoyability about this team. And so the fact that they are just legitimately good, like, again, we talked about the defense. I think the defense is very real. The offense, you have some question marks. So I was asking you about the switches. But like, it has been good enough. They can still win the variance game,

if nothing else with the three-point shooting. I think it shows, like, to your point, it's very quick to turn, it's very easy to turn this thing around, or you can do so more quickly than you anticipate. And I think because you have Devin Booker specifically as kind of the son of this offensively, it's a lot easier to find, like, bargain role players that can this kind of slide in. Like, I think because you can move Devin Booker around to the degree that you can

and you have other shooting, like it makes it easier for a guy like Jordan Goodwin to pop in a context like this, because you already have like a bunch of guys that are taking a three. So all he needs to do, screen cut. defend. You kind of fit into the ecosystem. And if you're basing your success on your defense anyway, he naturally slots in. So, like, I do wonder if this ends up being 45 wins, 46 wins, 47 wins, or whatever.

I do wonder how aggressive they want to be the following offseason because I think the peak point is a very important one to bring up. But, like, I don't know if they have to do anything major this upcoming offseason. Like, you can kind of just build this out, win around the margins again. And then as you get close to another pick unlocking, or if you do want to explore some of the younger guys, can we move someone? Like, Jalen Green is going to come back at some point.

Like, he's probably going to be the quote-unquote asset if they do want to be more aggressive just because of the salary, the age, the upside. But I think they're in a pretty good spot. That is not something that I anticipated saying heading into the season. And look, I was a, I think I used the word queasy about Booker's extension. And I would still, like, be a little queasy about $70 million

in 2030. They didn't have to do that last summer, but they did. He's played fine. He's played well enough that I'm not queasy, really, right? I'm a little, so little quizzy, but it is what it is. This is a going rate for a player of this caliber.

Dylan Brooks being extension eligible this coming off season is interesting to me. And it would be interesting to me if I were Dylan Brooks' agent as well. And I would agree with you about Jalen Green that, you know, if they'd ever decide to get a little aggressive, that he'd be, him plus whatever they can trade would be the thing. You know, everyone brings them up when these point guards become available, like Morant and Tray Young or whatever. I don't think they're doing anything with this team this year.

And certainly anything big or I think they're done with that kind of stuff for now and they're just going to build it out. Can I throw a Lakers thing at you real fast before we go? Yes. I also have a Dillon Brooks thing for you. Go. Oh, quickly on the Dillon Brooks point, career high and scoring. as we know. So he is, I soled

191 times this year. Last year, regular season in playoffs, that was at 192. So he's already about to eclipse that number. And on trips featuring a Dylan Brooks isolation, it's 1.13 points for possession.

That's 13th, right outside the top 10, it's been very good. Some of the names that he is ahead of on this list, Zach, Joelle Embed,

Kevin Durant, Devar de Rosen, Jamal Murray, Jalen Brunson, Yonis, Kauai, Jalen Brown, Devin Booker Anthony Edwards.

What am I looking at with all of these Dylan Brooks' turnaround jumpers and pull-up jumpers? Like, he has been such a saving grace in the second half of possessions for them. And, like, we talked about them earlier in the season when they got up to this 8 and 5 start and he was average 20.

And I said, I don't know if this is sustainable. Like, I think his 2.0% is going to come down. This 3.0% is going to come up. He's going to level out. And it's like, no, he just keeps doing it. And if he's just 20 point per game guy while also defending at a near all defense level, if not in all defense level,

like yeah, you probably do just extend him. Like he's been very important in terms of setting the culture, and this is like multiple spots now, to where his toughness and him being an irritant and the kind of effort that brings in has helped uplift a group.

If he's that plus this offensively, like why am I trade, why I'm even thinking about trading Daila Brooks? Oh, no, no, you're not. And yeah, he's shooting 50% of mid-range shots. shots. That's a big part of it. And he's shooting 72% at the rim. That's a career high by an enormous amount. His free throws are at a career high level. He's just been astonishingly good. And he deserved. And also, how about leading the league in technical fouls by like twice as

many technicals to everybody else? He's on, he's won away from getting suspended already. It's like, dude, are you trying to be Rashid Wallace? What's happening here? I saw the graphic there on broadcast. it was like him at 15 and the second place was like eight. I was like, how did this happen? Even Draymond Green is like, settle down, man. Like, what's going on? All right, here's my quick Luca take, and I want your take on this. Okay.

The numbers are outrageous than the three-point shooting, which we know has been a little up and down, not mostly down this season. Lakers' offense is mostly pretty good. Something is just, something just is off to me watching him play in the last couple of months. And I was talking to Legler off air about this, And he thinks part of it is that his defense has slipped.

And his, you know, his defense has slipped. Teams are going at him and it's getting ugly. The complaining to the refs is kind of back and nobody likes to watch that. But like all of that is just, that's the Luca experience. Something about as effective as he's been in the restricted area and on short twos, something about the pick and roll ecosystem is just malfunctioning is too strong of a word. just I'm watching it and I'm like, this doesn't look like Dallas.

And maybe part of it is just simply, Dallas very intentionally built a team designed to play pick and roll basketball of Luca Dantzic. And the Lakers did not. They had Luca Dantzic fall into their lap midstream while building another sort of team. Can you, do you feel this too? And if you do, can you try to teach me like,

what am I, what is leaving me cold? I think I have felt a similar way and I was talking to Steve about this the other day, funny enough. I haven't loved the Luca process this year. And I think so much of this is the roster context, but we talked about him earlier in the year where he was knocking down like 70% of his floaters. He was shooting well above 50% on his middies.

And I was like, this is cool. But he's not winning drives in the same way. You mentioned what he's shooting at the rim. He just does not get to the rim as often as he's. used to. And like, some of that is spacing, so it's not all him, but some of that is just the burst. And I think I watched these Lakers, and he racks up these numbers because of how good he is. But in terms of, like, the shots that he's taking and when he's taking them, like, that's probably been my bigger issue with the three specifically more than the percentage. Like, so many of these

are ISO early in the clock, and it's like, if you don't have it going, if you're not on one of your first quarter heaters, I really don't want to see this from you because the percentages do not vibe with that. But the inside of the art stuff has just been weird. He has not been able to work deep enough into the paint consistently enough. And that's where you're not getting the same late kickouts that we're accustomed to seeing. There are lookup passes that are not happening. Some of them is, like, he still has the ball fakes and the goofy stuff where he tricks people and looks in the other way and then kicks it.

But there's just something that's missing. And I've had a hard time putting my finger on it. I just know it doesn't look the way it looked in Dallas. And obviously the lob catching three-point shooting structure around. him is not the same. But like, to your point about the burst, I can't remember who they were playing maybe a week ago, five days ago. The other team, it was a kind of a soft blitz, but they blitzed him on the pick and roll.

And he just decided in that moment, for whatever reason, I'm splitting this and I'm going hard north-south. And he like jetted to the rim for a righty layup. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, he looked fast all of a sudden. I feel like I haven't seen that in a long time. and it feels less like he's playing within a team context and more like he's playing Luca ball with the Lakers around him.

Just something feels off, and I'm having a hard time putting words to it. And their offense has been good, and we all know the defense is the issue. Something is just not sitting right with me. I mean, they are down to where are they offensively? Their eighth and offense are good. Maybe I'm complaining about nothing,

but something just doesn't feel copacetic to me. It's not enough room pressure for me. with Luca. And I think if he's not going to have the good three-point shooting season, you need the rim stuff. The mid-range scoring is impressive, and I think once you get late in games,

and he's picking it match-ups and he can just knock down those kind of kill shots from the mid-range. You feel those more, but just over the run of an entire basketball game, like it feels like a lot of that. And with him not having, like, you know, Jackson Hayes is kind of the closest thing

he has to like a traditional, like, rim roller because DeAndreighton is more short-roll stuff. Like, you don't really have that rim thread. Luke is not getting all the way there. And because the Lakers aren't stopped with shooting, you can send help from different places against Luke on some of these drives. So again, all of this isn't just him.

Some of this is the context around him making it more difficult. But I think that's where you're feeling it. He can rack up these numbers. It's not putting pressure on the defense in the same way. And I don't want anyone misinterpreting this in any way. Had I had a ballot, Luca would have been an all-star starter for me.

They are scoring 119 points for 100 possessions with Luca on the floor and 111 with him. off the floor. This is in no way revisiting the trade in any possible way. Don't do it. He wasn't right. Nico wasn't right. It was a bad trade. The Mavericks are a tire fire right now, saved by Cooper Flagg. None of that. Just something doesn't feel right. All right, Nikaius Duncan, the dunker spot with Steve Jones Jr. is must listen. It's a great Peloton accompaniment for me. You're the man. Thank you for your time, bud. Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure. All right. That's it for the Zach Lowe show. We'll be back early next week to talk about whatever

That happens in the NBA in the next 72 hours or so. Thank you to Tim Legler, the great Tim Legler from ESPN. Thank you to Nikias Duncan from the Dunker Spot. His insight is second to none. Thank you to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe show. We'll see you soon. Must be 21 or over in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

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