The Zach Lowe Show - Under-The-Radar Moves of the Offseason with Fred Katz, TV Recommendations with Joanna Robinson, Lakers Check-In, Plus Mets Corner Continues with Sean Fennessey

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Zach’s most eclectic show yet! First up, Fred Katz joins to talk about the best under-the-radar (1:16) and WTF (25:41) moves of the offseason. Then, Zach needs a TV show to watch as he heads out on vacation! Joanna Robinson comes on (42:22) to give him some recommendations tailor-made for the Lowe household. Next, Zach checks in on Luka, LeBron, and the Lakers (1:07:09), before bringing in Sean Fennessey (1:21:55) to talk about the trade deadline on the latest Mets Corner! Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Fred Katz, Joanna Robinson, and Sean Fennessey Producers: Jesse Aron and Jonathan Frias Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Coming up on a fun all over the place, Zach Lowe show, we start NBA. Yeah, the NBA is still going on. Jonathan Cominga still hasn't signed anywhere as of this recording. All the restricted free agents are still out there. There's drama. Lucas Skinny.

We have Fred Katz from the Athletic coming out we're going to pick our most underrated favorite move of the summer under the radar. It's got to be under the radar. That means it can't be the Lakers, can't be the Nuggets guys, because they got so much attention for their brilliant signings because the team is so good. Under the radar, favorite move and move you look back on and you're like, wait, that happened? W2F was that move. I don't really love that.

We're going to pick one of each. Then Joanna Robinson, the Joanna Robinson is coming on to recommend TV shows for me and my wife who have a very narrow, sliver little then diagram space of overlapping taste. Joanna is coming to the rescue. I'm going to unleash some hot takes about modern television. It's going to be wild. And Met's Corner, trade deadline, Juan Soto injury, a lot to talk about on Met's Corner.

Seven game winning streak followed by now as I'm recording this. We're struggling against the Padres a little bit. Lots going on. Loaded Zach Lowe Show before I head out on vacation. Hope you all enjoy it. The Zach Lowe Show. It's late July. I'm about to go on vacation.

but not before we dispense with some last-minute NBA news and some evaluations of the summer that may have gone under the radar. Fred Katz from the athletic, how are you? I'm great, Zach. I'm ready to talk about some under-the-radar stuff. This is what I live for. I live for the stuff that nobody is talking about that I can then sift through and try to find.

So this is what I like to do after every summer. I go back. We've hit all the big transactions, all the medium-sized transactions, all the glamour teams, all the contenders. I like to go back through the whole list and remind myself, ooh, what little move did I really like? And what, not even just necessarily little, just little in terms of the attention it received.

So anything from the Lakers, disqualified, Knicks, disqualified, contenders like Nuggets, Jonas Valchunas, Bruce Brown, disqualified. You got a lot of love for that. Norm Powell, got a lot of love for that one, Miami. What under the radar move? Oh, you know what? I remember liking that. And then another move, you look back and you're like, oh, that happened?

Why the hell did that happen? WTF was that move about it. I hate that. And I said, we're going to pick one of each. Are you ready? I am ready. I got one of each. All right.

We're going to start positive because, you know, summer. So my friend Kim would say, it's summer. And we're in a good mood. Here are my nominees. And I don't care if your pick comes outside the list of my nominees. These are just my nominees for happy under the radar. Ooh, I like that move of the summer. Herb Jones, three years, $68 million extension with the New Orleans Pelicans.

Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren extensions with the Thunder, not being the full Supermax, and in Chet's case, not having any escalators at all. Ryan Rollins, three years, $12 million with the bucks. Now we're getting deep. The Wizards acquiring Cam Whitmore for two second round picks. Here's one that's nominated in both categories. Isaiah Jackson, three years, 21 million fully guaranteed Indiana Pacers.

Yabuselli, two years 11.5 million Nix. Trendin Watford on a one plus one minimum for the Sixers, teamed up with Jabari Walker on a two-way. Luke Cornett, four years, $41 million to the Spurs, almost too high profile for this category, but it gets in because that 4-41 is actually closer to two years 24 million, because year three is only $2 million plus guaranteed year-four team option.

Dayron Sharp, two years, $12 million to the Brooklyn Nets. Cole Anthony and Jericho Sims on minimums to the Milwaukee Bucks, and another one that's nominated like the Isaiah Jackson, in both categories because why not. Jabari Smith Jr., five-year, $121 million extension with the Houston Rockets. Fred Katz, was your happy under the radar move on my nominee list, or did you go off the grid right away?

It was kind of on the list, but not really. So my move is a move that I guess is kind of a few moves, but it was really just one transaction in one. And it involves the Cam Whitmore trade. So whiz, baby. Mine is, Zach, I have spent so much time in my life talking about Washington Wizards trade exceptions. And I'm going to add to that time right now. I don't want to say that, I don't want to say that that's wasted time, Fred, because you're a guest on my podcast.

So congratulations on the time you've spent dissecting the Washington Wizards in general. Yes. This is what I do. I think about the Wizards more than any sane human beings should think about the Wizards. So it wasn't the Cam Whitmore trade. I like that for them. That's basically take a flyer for two second round picks on a dude who might have a lot of potential and can really score and see what you can get. To me, that was part of a string of just like really interesting moves in terms of how they structured it from a cap perspective. So that really started

when they traded Jordan Poole, Sadiq Pay and the 40th pick in the 2025 draft to New Orleans for C.J. McCollum, Kelly O. Lowe. linic and like a top 50 protected second round pick. And let me stop you there. That trade from the New Orleans perspective should be on the what the fuck just happened here. Why did you do this? Except I've already done that segment of what the fuck just happened here. Why did you do this?

Why were you so eager to trade for Jordan Poole? On the flip side, an obviously good trade for the Wizards. Yeah, I thought about doing that. I feel like people piling on New Orleans is just like is so over the radar now. That's why the Herb Jones extension is on my under the radar deals. Congratulations on that one, Pelicans. Herb Jones consistently signing team-friendly deals. His previous one was like $14 million a year for a guy who can defend like that.

It's a great number for them. But so really what I loved about that from Washington was forget about the players involved. Basically, what this deal is telling you is that Washington was able to get off of $40 million of what they considered unwanted salary in 2026, 27. because Olinick is expiring. Jordan Poole is under contract for two more years. Sadiq Bay is under contract for two more years. And C.J. McCollum is expiring.

And so the Wizards are giving up $40 million with $26, 27 money. And they're basically doing it for the price of the 40th pick in this year's draft, which ended up being Micah Peavy. That is unbelievable value in order to get that amount of money. In order to dump $40 million of money, it should cost way more than the 40th pick in the draft. and possibly the Wizards are going to be able to get back like a 50-something pick in 27 to be able to make that up even a little bit more. So now the Wizards are going to get close to $100 million in Cap Room next year, not including their first round picks and whatever they have there.

And I love the way that they use this deal to spawn off other deals and create these really cool trade exceptions, which gives them even more flexibility. On top of all the cap room they might have next summer for the first time in 10 years they're going to have cap room. The Ramon Sessions Cap Hold is still on their book sack. So the Ramon Sessions cap hold next summer will finally come off of the Wizards books. I can't wait. The Jan Maheemi cap hold is finally going to come off the books. I remember when Ramon Sessions is going to turn the Lakers around. It's going to be a huge deal.

So what the Wizards end up doing is that's basically its own trade. They come back and they agree to the Cam Whitmore trade separately. They do two seconds for Cam Whitmore. Now, they could have done that deal on its own because they had a $9.9 million trade from the Jonas Valenciunas trade when they traded him to, Sacramento. And they could have slid Whitmore into the Jonas Valentuna's trade exception, but they didn't. What they did in order to preserve the Onus Valentunus trade exception was they looped the Whitmore deal into the Jordan Pool deal, making it a three-way deal. They ended up giving up

the exact same amount of stuff, getting back the exact same amount of stuff, and they got to keep the Jonas Valentunus trade exception. Then they take Kelly Olinick and what was technically a separate deal, but was part of the plan. And they trade Kelly Olinick to San Antonio. They bring back Blake Wesley and Malachi Branham. Two former first round picks. I don't think the Wizards really cared that they were two former first round picks. They released Blake Wesley. And I don't know what kind of opportunity to Brannam's going to get at least right off of the bat.

However, what they do here is they had a $5.2 million trade exception from Johnny Davis. The salary matching for that worked with Olinick for those two guys. Oh, my God. But so when they made the Johnny. As you're saying this, I'm going to go remind myself who Johnny Davis was drafted over because what an all time disaster draft. Zach, can I just say something? I was listening to your podcast. I don't remember a couple pods ago.

And you were, it must have been you and Simmons were joking about. Has anybody ever shrugged upon drafting somebody? The Wizards, I immediately thought the wizard shrugged when they drafted. Oh, in the draft room? Like it wasn't, oh, this is my, this is my rant that I did on Bill's podcast about how I wasted 11 fucking minutes of my life watching the Phoenix Suns inside the draft room. Let us take you inside the draft room. Let us take you inside the draft room where all our polos are matching and we're super excited about everybody we pick. And I said, I want to see the one draft room that's like, oh, God, our guy just got, we got to take this guy.

By the way, two picks after Johnny Davis is J-dub, just FYI amongst a bunch of decent players. Anyway, Wizards. That's real tough. So the Wizards traded Johnny Davis to Memphis earlier last season. And they created a $5.2 million trade exceptions. So what they did here was instead of just matching salaries in the Olinic trade, they structured it differently. And they used these trade exceptions to create a larger one. So they slide Blake Wesley into the biannual exception, which can be used as a trade exception now.

And they slide Brannam into the Johnny Davis trade exception, which allows them to create a $13.4 million trade exception from losing Kelly Olinic. And that's what they wanted out of that deal. They wanted a $13.4 million trade exception. So now, as opposed to the wizards having to use the, as opposed to the wizards having to use the Valanchunus trade exception in order to take in Whitmore and being left with just the MLE, now the wizards have nearly $100 million in Cap room next summer. They have a $13.4 million trade exception, which is very usable. They have a $9.9 million trade exception, which is very usable. They have the $14.1 million mid-level exception, which they could use as a trade exception or a free agency. the exception if they choose and they haven't used any of that and they're going to be able to like

i'm telling you the wizards this year they're going to try to insert themselves as the third team to deals and more deals need three teams than any other type than in any other era of the NBA because of the current rules you got like first apron teams trading with first apron teams and one team needs to dump money and the wizards are going to try to be that team all the time and they're going to say yeah give us a second round pick and we'll take the money give us a first and we'll take the money They've got these two big expiring contracts with McCollum and with Chris Middleton to where they'd be able to take in long-term money if they want to use their cap space early this summer. They have a lot of opportunities to be able to be flexible in this rebuild and take on more assets now. And meanwhile, they're about $30 some odd million below the luxury tax.

So they probably won't use all three of those trade exceptions that they have that are nice and sizable. But if the situation came up to where they had to, they could figure out of it. a way to use pretty much all of them and stay away from the luxury tax. So I just thought they did a really good job being able to kind of maneuver this from a cap perspective and set themselves up with the ability to take in kind of these more tinier assets in the future that I bet you will happen. Was there anything in any of that about the players that play basketball for the basketball team? Or are we just going to like this is all going to be great when the NBA crowns the Wizards the 2025,

2026 Sam Hinky Memorial Cap Management NBA champions. Like congratulations. You have a lot of cap space. You have a lot of trade exceptions. Can we talk about the team for a minute? Like I'm glad you brought them up because they and the Nets are the two teams

that I just haven't talked about at all because there's nothing interesting in terms of what they are trying to be next season. We all know what they're trying to do next season. They have, as I have said many times, a very interesting collection of young players. I like what Washington has done in the Michael Winger era. I liked Alex Sar's rookie year.

Is he going to be a guy guy? I don't know. I like Bub Carrington. Fine. I like Kishan George. Fine as a role player. I don't know if his shot ever going to come along. Trey Johnson is exciting.

Is he going to be a guy guy? We'll see. A.J. Johnson, a lot of untapped potential there. Will Riley will see. There's just like, I love Kulabali, despite the fact that after an incredible first month last season, he kind of backslit. I like, there's a lot to like.

Everybody knows there's a lot. lot to like. Everybody knows that there is not necessarily the tent pole guy yet. I'm not going to close the book on one or two of these guys. Maybe, maybe long shot developing into that. The more interesting question to me, though, is what you just said about is where all that cap flexibility takes us. Because I think there's a scenario where the wizards get to next offseason and they decide we are going to do our little junior varsity Eastern Conference version. of what the rockets did two seasons ago where we want to hit the gas a little bit on our development

and splurge on veteran free agents who can help us win some more games, be competitive, teach our young guys. I'm not comparing them to those rockets who were clearly ready for a big leap and clearly had like a plus young talent already in the door and Amman Thompson and Shengut and on and on and on. The Wizards aren't there.

Or do they get to the end of next year and discover, you know what, we're so far away that not only did we just tank last season, we're just going to be a salary dumping ground again for draft picks and draft picks and draft picks and move the thing forward. I think both of those scenarios are in play. I frankly think the Wizards would like scenario A to be in play because I don't think they want to be bad for like this long. But there's a fork in the road and I don't know which way it's going to go.

Yeah. If I had to bet, I would bet that it's going to be the second one and not the first. I would bet they're going to be a salary dumping ground either at the day. deadline and or over the summer. And honestly, the number one reason why, they still owe a top eight protected first round pick to the Knicks. And they are going to do everything in their power in order to keep that pick this year. They are going to lose.

Well, this is not about this year. My fork in the road is about you keep that pick. And it's about the 26, 27 season and beyond. No question. However, when you're in the process of just like trying to lose to make sure you can keep that pick, because it's not just about keeping that pick either. They have a swap with Phoenix. But they only get the swap with Phoenix if they have a top eight pick.

So if they finish ninth or on, that pick moves on and they don't get the swap. So in order to get the swap with Phoenix, which for all we know could end up being a really high pick, that's within the realm of possibilities, then they're going to want to lose. And if they're losing that much, if they're losing as much as you kind of have to lose in order to be so far away. They're going to be so far. Like, if you win 19 games again or 21 games again and it's coming off a season that you one in the teens, it's really hard to justify doing what the Rockets did. And I just don't necessarily

know if that's the direction they're going to go in. I think they have very measured leadership at this point. Ted Leonas, their owner, has put a lot of faith in that leadership so far. He's also the guy who famously stated six, seven years ago that they would never, ever tank. And somebody's also the guy who wrote the blog post about how Jordan Crawford, Andre Blatch, and I think John Wall were the new big three in Washington Sports and then he got so embarrassed by the blog post that he deleted it. Oh, yeah. That's like an oldie blogger move. Like I'm just going to take this down today.

We're going to notice if this just disappears. That was like 2010. That was like 2010. That was like infancy of NBA blogging. Honestly, it's an underrated owner online, uh, uh, self-own. Like it's, it's, it's not comic sands, uh, but it's, it's like closer to comic sands that it credit for it. And the fact that it was deleted, it makes it even funnier. It's a great piece of Ted Leonis lore. I look, I appreciate that Noner at least was putting out the putting out his thoughts

on the team regardless of how bracket goes is got he's got. He's got to draft up like Bob Carrington, Bala, Kulabali, and Alex Sar are the next you know what? You know what? Let's just let's just back. Let's just bag that. Let's just keep that one in drafts. I do think he's a little more realistic about about what they've got with this team. I think he's more measured than he used to be. Like, I've talked to people over there. I think he handles himself as kind of the governor of the team differently than he did even five years ago when he was pushing.

You got to get the eighth seed. You got to make the playoffs. That could change. It could change back to what it was before. He could say, I can't stand this much losing for this long. You've got to just at least be somewhat competitive. I have heard no signs of that actually changing. from everything I hear, like the organization as a whole is pretty bought in on this.

So my guess is they will try to take on bad salary again next year. And then once they're kind of free from having to owe a pick because that pick extinguishes or it either extinguishes and turns into two second rounders or it conveys this year and then it's done. Once they get past that, I think them we're going to start to see them pick up and try to become more competitive. I think this year is the last one where it's going to be the wizards like this. then we'll see. Like, you're right. I didn't mention any players. Easily, the easiest thing to do well is make a good trade when you're not trying to get better. The hardest type of trade to make

is make a good trade when you are trying to get better. It is a lot easier to make a trade when, whether it makes you better or not, is totally off the table. So you're totally right on that front. However, I don't know it's a little jarring given the wizard's recent history to see them valuing stuff on the margins in these tiny little things. They've always been good at trade exceptions. But to be able to see them kind of maneuver this kind of stuff. They should make that the team slogan, Washington Wizards basketball, we've always been good at trade exceptions.

Put that on a t-shirt. They'll sell hotcakes at the story. It'll outsell Kulabali jerseys. Zach, the Davos Burtan's acquisition was brilliant. All right. It was brilliant trade exception. I'm hitting the Zach Alphenakis. between two ferns button on Wizards cap minutia.

Here's my one piece of advice to the Wizards. And it's more important than the trade exceptions. Make the Cherry Blossom uniform part of your regular rotation and make it maybe your main uniform. End of thing. My pick for the Zach Lowe under the radar move that I don't think got talked about enough. I'm going to go with a big one, actually,

at least in terms of dollars. I'm going to go to Jabari Smith Jr. extension. five years, $121 million, super early for a first round pick entering his fourth season to get extended. It kind of came like, wait, why now? These usually happen in October? What's going on? It was like the first big move of the offseason or post-desmond Bain trade.

And then it got swamped by free agency and Kevin Durant and other things. And I just, I love it for both parties. I like it for Jabari Smith Jr. Because he's had a, you know, this is a guy that was rumored to be the number. number one pick in a draft that had Palo Bancaro and Ched Holmgren until the very last second when he was not the number one pick and Paolo was and he was the third pick. This is a guy who has played the three, the four, the five for a team that doesn't seem to know exactly what to do with him positionally.

This is a guy who spent, frankly, a lot of last season just kind of spacing the floor and looking for, you know, open threes and defending his ass off. His usage rate has dropped in each of his first three seasons in the league. incredibly unusual for a guy who again was rumored to be the number one pick in the draft right up until the last minute. He averages, you know, I gave Michael Porter Jr. a lot of crap. Not a lot of crap, I just pointed out that he averaged something like four drives per 100 possessions, according to the tracking data compared with Cam Johnson, who's 1213, and how much just that extra juice will help Denver. Jafar Smith Jr. averaged even fewer drives than that.

his handle is famously the subject of sort of snickering among the NBA cognizanty, and he is tentative in traffic. He does get picked now and then. He doesn't look confident when the help comes as a passer or as a driver or as a finisher. And yet Fred Katz, I like Jabari Smith Jr. I think he's a winning player. He just turned 22 years old like two months ago.

And I've seen enough glimpses of decisive attacks on closeouts, decisive face up and blow. He likes to go left face up and blow by someone left, triple threat, one dribble, finish. There's a lot. There's so much room to grow to even become an average ball handler, right? Like, he's got to get to a point. Teams are unafraid to put any kind of defender on him. We'll hide little guards on you. We don't think you're going to post them up or do any damage on the glass.

We'll hide big centers on you if they're not already hiding on Amman Thompson because we don't think you can blow by those guys. He's got to be able to punish that kind of stuff more. as he gets deeper into the playoffs if he's going to be a big rotation player for the Rockets. But I'm not looking at his handle at age 21 and being like, well, that's just all there is. He's going to be a glorified 3-and-D guy. He's going to be a good 3-and-D guy. He can defend every position.

I think he cares about the right stuff. I think this deal is good for him because it locks in $121 million. You could play hardball and be like, oh, he should have weighted. That's too low. What if he blows up? It's a shit ton of money. And for the Rockets, it sounds like a lot. is a lot. First of all, it declines in 27-28 when Amman Thompson's big deal is going to kick in

and Kevin Durant, if he signs an extension, will be on the books. That's important. And at the end, it's going to be like 12% of the salary cap, 13% of the salary cap. I'm betting on Jabari Smith Jr. to outperform that. I like this deal for both teams. It evinces a certain happiness, contentment. I like it. That is my winner. I love that deal too. I love the way the rockets have structured a lot of these extensions that they've done. Like, they actually negotiate on their rookie extensions. You see some teams who just kind of give all that they can give, and that's about it,

and to appease the player. And the rockets actually negotiate. And one of the nuances of the Jabari Smith deal that I saw that I liked was no player option on year five. No, straight up. Just straight up five years. A lot of times these deals, you'll see a player option on year five, didn't have that. 20 million is kind of just what you get for a normal starter. And I also think that Jabari Smith is really important for what the Rockets team identity is,

which is this is a team that has just decided we are going all in on size. Like something that I considered for my WTF move, which I'm not going to have, because it's not like I hate it, is, is the Clint Capella one where I was like, where, where is this, where does this fit in to every, everything. You've got Stephen Adams and you've got Shengoon and you've got Jabari Smith and you've got Kevin Durant. Like they're going to put out these lineups. Tari Isan, they're going to put out these lineups that are just going to be all engulfing. And they have just been all in on size. They love those lineups with Adams and Schengun last year, those double big lineups and they

used them a ton in the playoffs to a lot of success in a lot of really high pressure, high leverage situations. They're all in on size defensively. They're all in on size from forcing turnovers. all in on size from taking away the paint. He fits their defensive style incredibly well. He's 22 years old. Like a lot of the things that we're talking about, I think if he barely improves, I think this deal is probably fair. If he improves a lot, then all of a sudden you're looking at a really team-friendly deal.

And you're right. From his perspective, like $121 million isn't the same in the NBA's ecosystem, but it's still $121 million in the real world. So jump on that while you can. It shows a mutual commitment to me. We like you, you like me, let's get a deal done. And I think what you just said is important about his development. Like, I don't think he's ever going to be like a great ball handler or score in traffic or whatever.

But I think he could be competent. And, you know, he's swung between like, is he going to play some small ball five to, oh, he can't ever play small ball five because we have all these centers. We're going to play two of them at once. And it works. He's going to have to play the three and like runoff pindowns and do. guard stuff. And I think that positional flux combined with playing on a team that

just hit the gas dramatically right when he got into the league basically in terms of we're trying to win now as much as we can, has really made for a murky developmental path for him in terms of like, what can I do? How much freedom do I have? I'm betting on Jabari Smith Jr. living up to the contract. Okay. My

nominees for WTF under under the radar WTF, wait, what happened to move of the summer? This is my nominees. You're not beholden to them. Trey Mann, three years, $24 million from the Hornet. Okay. Clint Capella, three years, $21 million from the Rockets.

The Blazers acquiring Drew Holiday, who is set to make $32,000, $35 million, and $37 million on a player option over the next three seasons in exchange for Anthony Simons. The Utah Dress trading Colin Sexton and his second round pick to Charlotte for Yusuf Nurkich. Dennis Schrooter, three years, $45 million, year three, only $4.3 million, guaranteed. that saved the Kings from being in my winner's circle on this. Isaiah Jackson nominated again here three years, $21 million on a descending deal with the Pacers and Jabari Smith Jr.

And Jakub Pertil signing a what amounts to a four year, $104 million extension, picking up his player option for $26, 27, and then $27 million, $27 million. Fred Katz was your winner on my list? Or did you go off the board? It was, but I need to ask you a question first. How did Isaiah Jackson make both of your lists? Because I need to hear the logic. Because I've read, wow, like it reminded me almost of the Peyton Pritcher deal where I actually had people in the league being like, hey, what did you think of that Peyton Pritcher deal? It feels like a lot for a guy who's played for Boston.

I'm like, I don't know, it's $8 million. Like if he's bad, who cares? It doesn't matter. And I've seen people write in the media and heard people say at Vegas like, hey, did that one surprise you that they picked up his qualifying offer and then signed him to? to a fully guaranteed three-year $20 million deal coming off an Achilles tear and like, are we sure that he's good? And so I've heard that and that would be the WTF version. I actually think the deal is totally fine and that's why it was nominated in the other category.

Three years 21 million is like, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. They see potential on him on both ends of the floor. He clearly has something as a rim runner, rim protector, athlete kind of guy. Not rim protection is just okay. He's a little undersized. And like it's a descending deal for half the. mid-level exception, like the baby mid-level, like, I don't, I think it's a totally fine thing. You could be like, well, they could have gotten this guy for the minimum and like, why are they

doing this? I'm like, okay, it's their guy. They paid him some money. I don't care. So I would have, I have had it more positive than negative, but that's my answer. Okay, that's a good answer. Yeah. Last year of his deal, he's making like under 4% of the cap last year of his deal. Okay, my pick was on your list. And it's not even because I hate it is because I have never been so, I can't remember the last time I was so mutually confused across the board on a deal. And it's Colin Sexton and a second round pick for Yusip Nurkich. I just honestly don't get it from either side. The Charlotte side, I get it.

Off guard scoring is just not valued in the league right now. We've seen it in a million different transactions this summer. I assume Charlotte must have really valued the second rounder. Charlotte loves piling up second rounders. They got like up to 15 second rounders over the next seven years and they just want to be able to take on that second rounder. But honestly, the best way that I can describe this is you can usually when you see a trade, take a guess on who called whom, like who is trading for whom in this scenario.

And you can take the guess and figure it out. You know, the rockets called the Phoenix Suns to talk about Kevin Durant, obviously. That was the Rockets trading for Kevin Durant. This one was strange to me because the second round pick was going to Charlotte when Yusuf Nurkich was just dumped in also a very strange salary dump last year where the sun's kind of messed up the order of operations doing the pick trade where they converted their 2031 unprotected first into three protected seconds. They kind of messed up the order of operations and possibly cost themselves some assets in the

process and then dumped Nerkitz using one of those. seconds. So they were dumping him. And now all of a sudden he's expiring, Sexton's expiring, but they do that deal. On the Hornets side, it's like the Hornets have so many people who either need to dribble or just will dribble. Like they've got LaMello and they've got Brandon Miller, and they've got Trey Mann, and they sign Spencer Dinwiddie, and they've got Miles Bridges. They have all these other dudes who are going to need shots. They need shots for Con Cinnipple. They have no centers. Now that Nurkage has gone, they have, they have Mason Plumley. And they have Musa Diabate, who honestly, I'm kind of obsessed with watching because he is the

most fun. It's not the best rebounder in the league, but he's the most fun rebounder in the league because he's completely and utterly unhinged. He just like absolutely crawls after the basketball and doesn't stop moving. And his feet are insane. He doesn't care to ever box anybody out and yet gets every rebound. I think the Hornets were like 11 percentage points better on the offensive boards when he was on the court last year, which is like ridiculous. It's like absolutely outrageous. But like I don't need Musa Diabate is my like 30 minute center. And I don't even Mason Plumley is my 30 minute center. And again, I get it. The Hornets aren't trying to win. But like I don't understand what that does for you other than getting you. I think it's a 2030 second round pick. But here's what's also weird about it,

Zach. It's like a 2030 second round pick. But the Hornets have nine second rounders from 2030 to 2032. Why was it not another year? Like, you'd think they want to spread it out more. I was just like a little... Meanwhile, Utah just kind of casually threw in a second rounder, and Utah has a lot of first, but Utah doesn't have a lot of seconds. Utah, meanwhile, has Walker Kessler.

They have Kyle Philpowski. Like, Utah is trying to get the guys who can make them good out of there right now. I get that part. It's very, very strange. You know, the Collins deal. got Collins out of there and it got them a pretty sizable trade exception, which is good for them. I just, I don't, I don't, I don't really understand it for either one. Like if Yusuf Nerkich was going to get traded, I did not think that was going to be it. And if Colin Sexton was going to get

traded, I did not think that was going to be it, especially when like, is Nerkich, if there's a world where Nerkich is playing behind Philipowski and Walker Kessler, if that ends up being the case at any point this season. Like, is that good for the jazz? Like, Is that good for Yusuf Nerkich? And if it's not good for Yusuf Nerkich, is that good for the jazz? Like, it wasn't great when Nerkich wasn't playing in Phoenix last year either. Like, I don't, I don't get it. I don't understand.

Well, this is why when the trade happened, so many people were convinced that at least from Utah's perspective, well, something else must be coming because this doesn't make sense. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't really love it for either team. The more you talked about Charlotte, the more I'm like, maybe they're just trying to retrade sexton down the line after they raise his value. he's on an expiring deal as is as is nirk and i think for utah it was just like we need to not just clear out the good guys we need to clear out like the ball handlers we need to give our guards and wings all the reps they need which is why i have not one eye but both eyes semi permanently

looking in the direction of lowry marketing who immediately became the most interesting trade candidate in the league when utah announced to the world yeah we're selling everybody off and look they extended him he's making a lot of money he's got to rehab his value a little bit didn't play enough year he missed a whole bunch of games. I said everyone with the jazz. But I just, I'm looking, I'm staring over there, like constantly. Keep an eye on Ryan Kalkbrenner in the Hornets center rotation, by the way. They like him a lot. Yeah, I, it was a strange, strange trade. My nominee is going to raise some eyebrows. My winner is going to raise some eyebrows. I don't really understand why the Raptors were in a hurry to pay Yaka-Purdle $100 million.

He's a good player. He's good at lots of stuff. I don't know what he's great at. He's no longer a great rim protector. He's just good. He's good. He's almost 30. And so this extension now takes him through the 2029,

2030 NBA season. Your team is okay. Like I think they're okay. like I don't like what is yaka purdle what is is there a $20 million a year difference between yaka purdle and d'Andre aton to me they kind of remind me of each other at least when aitin is trying of guys who are like pretty good at lots of stuff not good not great at anything and in purdle's case like a total non-threat to shoot the basketball from outside 10 feet now in yaka purdle's defense he is an absolutely ill

elite, elite short-range floater shooter. I'm talking 50% plus accuracy every year. He's an elite screen setter. He's a decent passer. He finds cutters. He can catch the ball on the roll on four on threes. And I thought last year got more aggressive, like one dribble power up to the rim. Got nice touch with both hands.

He knows where the shooters are if he's got to pass it out. I think one reason, Fred, that he may have gotten a little more aggressive going to the rim in those situations. He shot 67% at defense. foul line last year, which for Yacca Purdle is like basically Steve Nash levels of accuracy at the line for a guy who's been in the 40s in some seasons before and very obviously afraid to get fouled. Even last year, two and a half free throws per game for a starting center playing huge minutes is not enough. And it's not even close to a lot. It's like almost eight in levels of free throw phobia. And like, but he's good. I'm also not sure in this mix of

players, given the adequate to not good shooting around Pertil, how often those pick and roll skills are really going to get to sing. It's not a guy you want to give the ball to in the post very often. And I think that's actually, if you ask the Raptors, why did we do this? I think it's because he's good. Like, he's a good player. I think it's because the plus minus data, data would show you that their entire team has collapsed without him, particularly on defense, the last three seasons.

He's their player. They drafted him. They traded him. then they retraded him, re-traded for him. And I think if you're trying to do this middle ground thing, middle build thing, where you, you know, tank the one year and then you build it, build it, build it, build it, and you're trying to be competitive and you're trying to be good, they just have no other center option on their team that's even close to reliable.

Mamu's their backup center. And then from there, it's small ball, Mobo, Murray Boyles, who I like that they drafted. And I think they just view him as if we're going to be competent, he has to be on the or a center at his level has to be on the team. I just didn't really get the rush. I mean, he was already on the books for the next two seasons, and now you're paying him in the high 20s, almost 30 in 2930. I just, again, he's a good player.

I just, I didn't get it. And I felt like it went under the radar because it's the Raptors because it's a relatively anonymous player and a lot of other stuff was happening. And I went back, I was like, man, that's a, I don't get that one. Do you get that one? No. I don't. And on top of that, so like that kicks you in 27, 28, right? He picked up his player option for 26, 27, $19.5 million. And then it's essentially three-year,

$85 million extension on top of that. Right. So that kicks in $2728. So that means 2728 season. The Raptors are going to have Scotty Barnes, Brandon Ingram, Emmanuel Quickly, and Jakup Pertil, just those four are going to be making almost $147 million. That's a lot of money to commit to a team. that has not even proven to be a play-end team. Right now, by the way, the Raptors are sneakily in the tax. I think they'll find a way to get out of it, I think. But the Raptors are sneakily in the tax right now.

Like, this is a team that is committing dollars and committing years. And, like, the market is not saying that you need to commit years to anybody right now. I think only four actual free agents. I mean, extensions have been different. But four free agents have signed four. plus year deals so far this summer. That's it. At least four years guaranteed.

Like Luke Cornett doesn't count because he's not guaranteed for a bunch of them. But like if we're talking at least four years guaranteed, only four free agents have signed. I think last year the number was 13. Like you're not getting years anymore in this in this cap environment. And the Raptors are locked up with high money and with years. They gave the extension of Brandon Ingram too where I could just be like, look at the way that this summer has gone. If the Raptors hadn't extended Brandon Ingram and they wanted to,

kind of play a hardball with him. Like, I don't know if Brandon Ingram would be making $38 million this year, $40 million the next year. Like, I don't know if that would end up being the case. But they signed him to an extension shortly after trading for him. And obviously that was like part of the move. But the Raptors have committed dollars and years to a core that hasn't won anything yet. And I'm, I'm just very skeptical when you have a group.

in general who when they are at their best, the team is not necessarily at their best. And you look at like RJ Barrett had honestly under the radar improved last year, way better passer than he ever was. They put it, he was way better in transition. And they let him run the offense more with like quickly missing a lot of time and whatever else. But RJ Barrett at his best when he has the ball in his hands. Emmanuel quickly at his best when he has the ball in his hands. Scotty Barnes is a guy who they've been trying to kind of improve as a facilitator. and a lot of these guys, Brandon Ingram, at his best, when the ball is in his hands. However, when these guys have the balls in their hands and other guys don't, they're not

going to complement each other and they're going to put somewhat of a ceiling on your attack. And I'm just very curious to see how they all bring the best out of each other, how they mesh. If there's a lot of just kind of standing around, they've tried to run motion offense and that kind of stuff before and tried to get out in transition. And sometimes it's looked really good and really creative. and end it very well may. It also may not look like any of these guys are at the best versions of themselves in the process.

And if the Rafters end up like 9th, 10th, 11th in the east, and they have this much money committed to this roster, like, you're kind of, you're kind of locked in. And I'm with you. Like with Pertil, it's just the timing. It's like you had two years. You can, you can wait a year and that extension is probably going to be there. The chances of Yakopurtle taking some kind of leap and adding a three-pointer and becoming a $35 million a year center is incredibly small. You know, like chances are that deal is going to be there the next summer and he's still going to want the security of an extension.

It's a great deal for him and a great deal by his agent, whoever that is. Like, I've already done my deep dive on the Raptors and will all the pieces fit and where is this team? I've done it actually a couple of times. People can listen to that. On just Pertil alone, I can hear the fans saying, wait a second, you just compare this dude to D'Andre Aiton, like the guy that got bought out and every team that has him can't wait to get rid of them seemingly.

I just meant skill-wise. I don't think there's a $20 million difference between the two players. And I get that Pertil is a completely self-aware and selfless player. And then I can hear the front office saying, you just hit it, Zach, selfless. We have a bunch of guys who want the ball and want to score. We need a guy to set screens for them, get them open, hit them when they cut, and hold the entire defensive ecosystem together.

And he's the only option we really had to do that. And so we paid him all this money. I just, I didn't get, I get all that. I just don't like the deal. That's all. Fred Katz, what do we got coming up from you? We got some vacation coming up from me. I just did a four-part series over at the athletic on looking at each of the four remaining

restricted free agent guys so you can go check that out, pulled a bunch of people around the league, got a pulse on how they value all those guys and kind of delved into that. And otherwise, there is nothing going on in the NBA. So we got nothing. All right. Well, I'll see you on the other side. Thank you, Fred Katz. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process. Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines?

Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash Firefly. This episode is brought to by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously. But you know what else is? Collecting basketball memorabilia.

And that's why you got to love eBay. It's like a never-ending merch. store, vintage basketball cards, old school jerseys, one-off fan-made artwork. On eBay, you can always find whatever your thing is. From her collectibles and vintage cars to designer fashion, it's all there. Millions of Fines each with a story. eBay, things people love. All right, now we're in for a treat.

It's the offseason. Nothing's going on. I'm about to go on vacation. You know what I need? I need a TV show to watch, but not just any TV show. I need a TV show that fits in the extremely, narrow Venn diagram where my tastes and my wife's taste overlap. We're talking no violence, like zero tolerance for violence. When people recommend me to show and said, oh, your wife could do

it. There's only like a little like couple of arms get chopped off. I'm like, you don't understand what you're dealing with. No unpleasant suspense, which means severance, for instance, is out. There's very little violence in it. I love severance. I'm addicted to it. But there's just a general tone of foreboding and corporate malice involved. And so I enlisted you, Joanna Robinson, because you're an expert at this. A plus plus podcaster. I cannot tell you enough how much I enjoyed getting to know your voice and your techniques and your just general pleasant demeanor listening to the Severance recap podcast. And that introduced me to your general line of work. I'm so excited that you're joining us and you're going to help me out.

Oh my God. What a thrill. I love a puzzle. I love an impossible challenge. And And I, I, when you, when you said, recommend something for my, my wife, I had to watch, happy, easy, thrilled. And then you, and then you started narrowing the parameters. I was like, all right, this is getting tougher. But that's almost more fun. Like a really, really narrow assignment is quite fun. So I have some thoughts and some plans for you. No violence, minimal unpleasantness, minimal unpleasant suspense.

And generally, like, as the world has gotten darker, her tolerance for just, like, profound negativity, even if it's like, you know, is a little limited. I gave you a couple of examples of shows that have just smashed the middle of that Venn diagram in the past. Mad Men, A plus for us. Halt and Catch Fire. I'm an evangelist for Halt and Catch Fire overall, but A plus for us. On the comedy side, 30 Rock, shrinking. Those are four of the all-time low family hits.

So with that said, I have a TV vacancy. Nothing has scratched our itch lately. We've tried a bunch of stuff that hasn't taken. I'm hoping you can help us out. Okay. Let me ask you quickly about Mad Men, which was like sort of my guiding star in a certain degree. When the lawnmower, like the riding lawnmower happens and that blood spray happens, your wife could handle that. That's okay.

Your wife could handle that degree of, or it's just one scene and she can look away and she can handle the arterial spray of that. That was a tough one because that was sort of unexpected, although as soon as the lawnmower enters the office environment, you know something bad is going to happen. But it was it was like sudden and and very red and then over. Yeah, yeah. And then over. And also like there's just a general knowledge that plus or minus maybe like an office suicide of some kind. There's just generally not, it's not going to be that kind of show. Right.

So like I can get by that and move on. Okay. So my number one, given your love of Mad Men and Halton Catch Fire, you like competent adults working is sort of seem. to be a theme there. 30 Rock is in the mix, too. I want to recommend The Hour. That's my number one recommendation for you. Have you heard anything about The Hour?

Zero. I don't even know what it is. I'm scarred because there was a movie called The Hours, which changed my entire movie watching diet because it was so relentlessly depressing that I was like, I cannot watch a movie like this ever again. So we're going uphill from there. Okay, only uphill from here.

This aired two seasons, 2011, 2012, You can currently find it on Amazon and Apple to purchase, so you have to trust me that this is worth a purchase. But it's a BBC show, and it's set in the 1950s, and it is about the launch of a fictional news organization in the UK. So it's very madman coded in terms of like this is an office of whip smart people wanting to figure out how to tell the news in an entertaining way, very broadcast news in that way, How do we tell the news that is both entertaining to people, but also journalistically integral? And it's got a great cast. Ben Wischaw is like one of my all-time favorites is here. Dominic West is here. It's just, it's a really, really good cast.

Really flew under the radar. But if people are looking for a madman halt and catch fire sort of replacement, I think the hour is a perfect underrated gem. So that's my number one. Dominic West is wire, correct? Yeah, that's right. McNulty. Yeah, McNulty's here. Where are we on the serious humor?

Is it a nice meshing of both? Is it more on the serious side? Where do we land? I think it's a nice blend, especially that first season. I think it's a nice blend because we are serious and earnest and trying to do the news, but we're very British and we're very classy and sarcastic. And so that's all in the mix as well. And Dominic West plays this very like a cad, a cad-ish news anchor.

very, very good role for him. Look, anybody, I am a walking TV stereotype in that The Wire is my all-time favorite show. So like just anything with anybody from The Wire in it, I'm very pro. My wife watched half of an episode of The Wire with me. I was like, no, I can't. No, no. No, she's out. She's like, I understand this is probably tremendous and everyone is saying it's tremendous.

I just can't do it. And I think for people who love following like Peggy's story on Mad Men or, the women of Halt and Catch Fire, Romola Gary is basically the main character and the producer of this program and she's very, very good. So I think it's a smash hit. I don't know why it wasn't a bigger hit in America,

maybe a little too British for some people, but it's really, really good. You know what I like a lot of what you just said, though? Two seasons. I don't have to, I'm not going in with like, I got 10 seasons to get through. It's a huge time commitment. So you have watched Halton Catch Fire, it sounds like.

I don't know if I've ever listened to you. Talk about it. No, I've never recorded about it. But yeah, it's an amazing show. Oh, yeah. It's an incredible show. I don't know why it wasn't a bigger hit. I know that the first season starts, and then the second season just explodes into something

else entirely, and it just becomes this incredibly compelling show. Once a year on my podcast, I just start evangelizing for people to watch Halt and Catch Fire, and it's the rare show. It's four seasons, it's not Big Lift. It's the rare show that gets better and better and better and better the entire time. And it's funny, I just wanted to say because you said, if you like the plot of the women of Halt and Catch Fire, it was such a cool evolution of the show, which clearly started as like madmen for tech. Right. The Lee Pace show sort of thing.

Yeah. Yeah, Le Pace, handsome, mysterious, might be hiding a secret, but he's a slick, handsome salesman, blah, blah, blah. And then it becomes this show about loving your work and putting everything in your soul into your work at the expense of other parts in your lives. and particularly women in tech and venture capital become the kind of heart and soul of the show. It's just, I can't, it makes me so angry that nobody watched this show. Okay, so the hour number one, let's go to number two. Number two, on the two seasons only front, I will say, actually there's a third season, but you don't have to watch it because it's one of those much later sort of vestigial seasons.

Party Down, do you know anything about Party Down? I've heard of Party Down, but I've heard that it's good, but I don't know anything about it. You love Severin so much. You listen to other people podcasting about it, which hopefully means you love Adam Scott. Oh, Adam Scott is in this? Yes, it's Adam Scott's like his first big show. Adam Scott, Lizzie Kaplan, Martin Star, Jane Lynch, Megan Malolly, Jennifer Coolidge, Ryan Hanson. I'm sorry, what, how do I not know about this?

I know. It's an A plus cast. Incredible show. Ran for two seasons, 2009, 2010, and it's about a group of cater waiters. and Adam Scott is a former child actor now turned caterwaiter. And it's just, you were talking to me a little bit about you were lamenting the lack of real comedies these days. And we can talk about that a little bit more if you want to.

But party down is a true comedy. And a really, really good one, a really, really fun one. It's not too wacky. And once again, it's people doing their jobs mostly well, sometimes well. And Adam Scott is incredible in this Like really much more in his severance mode Than in his Parks and Recreation mode But this is this is a great Adam Scott vehicle

I enjoyed hearing all the stories about how There was Ben Stiller face pushback about casting Adam Scott in severance and how he fought for him And it was such a he's so fantastic in it And he fits the role so perfectly Party down Everything you just said is going to be hard to beat In the next three slots

I actually give me a top five This is, and I don't want to get too far on a comedy tangent because we can do this another time, hopefully if you will indulge me. But this is my completely, like, you are an expert at this. I am just like a dumb guy who watches some shows every now and then. So it's like, this is the teeth. It's like baseball. I'm just giving my uneducated hot takes. My most passionate, uneducated hot take, and I say uneducated because I'm probably missing the shows that would scratch this itch for me is I'm trying all these shows.

that are allegedly comedies. And I'm not even talking about the bear, which is like so far away from a comedy. It's not even trying to be a comedy and it's somehow classified as one for the Emmys. It's absolutely insane. I'm talking about shows that are pitched as comedies. And I get to the end of every one of them

or every episode. I'm like, I don't think I laughed out loud one time. Can you just be funny? I understand you're trying to be teaching me about life lessons and, you know, all of these kind of ethical moral quandaries and this. I just, could you just tell some jokes that make me belly laugh.

I'm like, where is the next 30 rock where I'm just laughing the entire time to the point that I have to rewind because I missed a joke? That's what I want. Party Down is going to get me there? I think so. I think of all the things

that I have to offer you today, Party Down is the closest that's going to get you there because you're right. It's hard to find a comedy that everyone hasn't already watched that really is truly funny. And I think Party Down is, it qualifies.

And I have been thinking about that. I do want to talk to you more in depth about what happened to the TV comedy. Like, just go, just give me the cliff notes now. I would say that there's a couple things at play. One is in general, we're moving away from the world of comedy because comedy is a communal experience and we're becoming more and more isolated watchers. And so like you and your wife watch together.

And if you belly laugh together, that's a lovely thing. A lot of people are watching this stuff, you know, by themselves. And comedy is not really what they're chasing in that moment, I think. And also I would say the emergence, I would think about this a lot, the emergence of social media, TikTok, Instagram Reels, all that sort of stuff. You've got this sort of rapid fire reactionary comedy that exists online in these little bits and pieces that people are glomming onto in a way that's even hurting something like SNL. Like Saturday Live has a hard time feeling like relevant and fresh because you have to wait all the way until Saturday to get your

commentary on what's going on. So forget something like Seinfeld, which had, you know, months to sort of come up with interesting reactions to what's going on in our culture. Somebody's already made 20, 100, a thousand TikToks about it. You've already heard the jokes about this sort of thing. So I think what is the deal with kind of comedy can't work anymore in our social media world. I'll tell you one that has been recommended for me is the Detroiters or Detroiters, whatever it's called.

Because, but I like, I think you should leave. I have now, I've just seen the YouTube sketches. I've never really sat down and watched a show. but it's it's the absurdist nature of it is very appealing to me my wife doesn't really like that kind of comedy is detroiters too far in that direction for us have you seen it it's a thing to be strange like that okay i think it would be maybe i'll do solo too close to that but i think you should leave is a really good example of like you can watch the clips but there is something different about the entire experience of watching a whole episode of i think you should leave just because of the mix

and you just get pulled in further and further into absurdity so that's that's a really I'm just going to give one example because it's fresh on my mind. I don't like all these people work so hard on these shows and they're all good and I don't like to speak negatively of one. But just this is the one that's fresh on my mind. Is Stick supposed to be funny? Oh, no. Can't be.

It's not funny. It's not funny. No, it's not. Mark Marin's on it. Owen Wilson's on it. It was like supposed to be Ted Lassow for golf. Ted Lassow at least season one was like riotously funny. I just, it's, I haven't laughed one time.

The Apple offerings, uh, are real hidden mess these days. And I think especially how they qualify things, drama versus comedy is really, because I wouldn't even call shrinking, uh, a classic comedy at all either. You know what I mean? That has a lot of emotionality and baggage to it. It does, but it has supporting characters who are there almost entirely. Like every line that comes out of, uh, Ted McGinley's mouth is. just A plus comedy.

Like every single... Jessica Williams, 90% of what she's saying is just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, machine gun comedy. Okay, give me a third one. All right, your third one, I'm going to go with better things.

This is six seasons, but they're short seasons. Okay, never heard. Literally never heard of it. FX on Hulu or Disney Plus. You can also watch it. Pamela Adlin, who I love, raising three kids, one of whom is recent Oscar winner,

Mike and Madison. And so it's about a single mom, three kids in Los Angeles and sort of her really, I don't know, you mentioned that dry comedy is not really your wife's thing, but it's a nice blend of sarcasm and actual genuine emotional connection. And I think that idea of it's not a family sitcom at all by any means, but it has the bones of a family sitcom and then this really sort of dry perspective on top of it that I think makes it a really good combination. Okay. She's really funny. Pamela Adlin, really good. Better things. Okay.

I see created by Louis C.K. He's off after season one because it launched before everyone knew things about Louis CK. And then he sort of departed the show after season one. Okay. The follow-up question that I really should ask you that just popped into my head right now. There's one comedy, long running, I believe still running, that is. seems to be universally beloved by a fervent, fervent fan base that I've never even dabbled in because my assumption was it was going to be too almost nasty. And I don't mean that in a bad way,

but like nasty for my wife. Yeah, sure. It's always sunny in Philadelphia. Should I, should we give it a shot? I can't handle it's always sunny in Philadelphia. Really? I don't like, I mean, I've seen clips that are really fun. There are bits that are really funny. And I love all of those guys and everyone. I love Philadelphia. I love the city of Philadelphia. Everyone involved in that show I really, really like. I can't handle people being that mean to each other.

And that makes me sound so soft. But there's a lot of, a lot of meanness I can handle if at the end of the day there's sort of like a baseline camaraderie that goes with it. There's just something about it's always sunny that I can't hang with. So they're like legit. They're like legit mean to each other. It's not like ribbing among friends kind of.

of mean to each other? I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say. Another recommendation that I have is fits nicely into that mean to each other, yet there is a core love going on there, which is something called You're the Worst, which is also, yeah, that one is, I would pay your pair the recommendation of You're the Worst with a show called Crashing, which is Phoebe Weller Bridges show that she did before Fleabag. And both of them are about sort of messy 20 somethings, early 30 somethings. And I don't know. I enjoy watching those shows, even though I'm not remotely in my messy 20s or 30s anymore, because I get the sense of I don't have to deal with that anymore. So it's fun to watch from a distance, the messiness that was, you know, your early adult fumblings. But both you're the worst in crashing. Crashing is only one season, six episodes. It has Phoebe Weller Bridge and Johnny Bailey, who everyone loves right now, one of his first shows that he ever did. Should I know who that is? He's in the new Jurassic World movie.

He was in Wicked. He's on Bridgerton. He's sort of a... None of... Not for you. None of this is for you. No, they're just... I just say, they haven't...

I know what all of those things are. You're not a big Bridgeton guy. You're not a huge... Bridgson's the one where they're always going to balls and there's a lot of sex and there was like the guy that became a sensation for a minute. French guy, I think, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But crashing and you're the worst are both, I think.

think, and you're the worst especially because it has just a lot of really fun recurring bets that remind me of older sitcoms, where it's just sort of like you have the brunch episode that will come back to season and season. And so I really, really love how mean it gets away with while being soft-hearted at its center. So you don't feel like you're watching something that's too sappy, but you're watching something that doesn't make you feel uncomfortable with how cruel people are with each other. And I think it rides that line perfectly. I need a little edge. I need a little, I need a little edge to my humor. Yeah. Have you tried anything recently that you're like, this is way too soft? I don't, I can't handle how sweet this is. I don't think so because it would

just be like disqual, what's an example? Because I just would disqualify it on, on its face. I sometimes, I hear people say that about Schitt's Creek. A lot of people thought it was a little too sweet for them. I don't know if you gave that show a try. I liked Schitts Creek. We liked Schitts Creek. We watched it very late and we're warned that it starts slowly and you're not going to think it's funny.

I thought it was funny right from the beginning. I can see what people are, lessons are learned, wealth is not everything. People change and love each other and make very mature decisions. I get that. I guess I just thought Catherine O'Hara was just so wildly outrageous. Yeah. I'm forgetting her name. Who plays the sister? Oh, Alexis.

Yes. She's fantastic. Annie something, I feel like is her name. Murphy, Annie Murphy, that's right. She is, you come across these people on shows like this that make you appreciate how many Uber talented folks are like in the underbelly of entertainment that will never ever make it in any, not make it, but we'll just never come on your consciousness in any big way because I had never seen her before in anything. She was just popped off the screen as so funny, so talented. And just the single word, David, she said in 5,000 different ways.

And it was hilarious every single time. And now she's famous. And it's like, how many people like that are there that just never get the right break, never get the right role? They're just everywhere. Every show you watch. She's like, who's that guy? That guy is amazing. Why is he not famous?

And when you hear her tell the story of her audition and then she ends it with and then he changed my and then, you know, Dan changed my life. Like that's true. And if he had picked another person, we still might not have heard of Annie Murphy. She's Canadian. We might, she might never have broken through over here. So, yeah. I get what people think it's too sweet. It can, it, it verges on like moralizing a little bit towards the end.

But I never mind it. I just, again, like the quippy. one-liners. I just, that's what I like. Okay. Well, I really think you're the worst, especially, is something that you might really enjoy in that case. So those are my recommendations. I think I smuggled in. Yeah, that's, that's five. I have some, some honorable mentions if you want to hear any. So I have your list that you texted me. And I just want to say, I appreciate that you put Better Call Saul. It's so optimistic of what my wife could handle. I love breaking bad I did solo before I, before we had a family, before we had a kid. And, and,

And now I just can't do a long thing solo anyway. I just don't have time. So better call Saul, I'm never going to watch it. I'm sorry. The first couple seasons of that show really aren't violent at all, but then I can't promise that of the last couple seasons. So I felt that was fair for you to say, no, thank you. You recommended catastrophe, which we watched years and years ago and really liked.

You recommended a show called Colin from Accounts, where I was once on, like, it must have been an overnight flight somewhere and just so desperate for any entertainment. and we were within like the 90 minutes till landing window where you're not going to start. We was like, what the hell is this thing, Colin from accounts? It was cute. I saw like two episodes of it. I was like not out on it.

Maybe I should go try to get back in. I think that show is a real underrated hit for me. And I don't think it's too sweet. But I think your, I think your wife might enjoy it. Absolutely. Any other honorable mentions that you really want to highlight that are just, you just have the sweet spot for them?

I think I think slings and arrows is one that I want to stump for just while we're on the let's honor canada a beat and say slings and arrows is set at a Shakespeare company in Canada. It's only three seasons. And it's about a troop of actors. The head of programming dies at the beginning of season one, not violently, and haunts the theater. And so it's just this like really fun, funny theater-based, warm but sharp, really smart comedy that nobody ever talks about that I think is really, really good. A young Sarah Polly, a young Rachel McAdams before she hit in America.

Oh, wow. So we're talking. This is like 20 years old? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like early, early odds. And so it's a lot of really fun, emergent Canadian talent inside of it. So I really love that show. You also have pushing daisies on here?

Why have I heard of pushing daisies? Was it a critical darling at some point? Your guy Lee Pace, that's sort of why I put it on there. But then you said your wife doesn't like sci-fi fantasy. But the idea of pushing daisies is it's a very sweet poppy show. Murder Mysteries. Christian Chene with us here. Anna Friel is here.

And Lee Pace has this ability to the first time he touches someone, it brings them back to life. And then the next time he touches them, they die. And he has this ability to, if someone has died recently, he can bring them back to life ask them questions and try to solve the murder. And inside of that, there's a love story. It's very odd. It's from Brian Fuller who did Hannibal, a much darker show, dead like me, a darker show. But pushing daisies is sort of macabre, but really fun.

And Lee Pace is just 10 out of 10 great in it. I mean, he was already famous before Halt and Catch Fire. It already started to become famous. I had never seen him before Halt and Catch Fire. Now I'm just a fan for life. I'm also a fan of yours for Life, Joanna Robinson. There are so many Peloton rides that you and Rob Mahoney got me through dissecting. I mean, I hope people appreciate the work that you guys do.

Like people, like, I'm just sitting here riffing on, like, shows that I watch an episode of. And I never, then weeks go by off, start finishing another season of it. You're, like, you're watching these episodes multiple times, taking note. Like, this is, it doesn't sound like work to people because it's their entertainment, but that's similar to basketball for me. You watch basketball, yeah. It's work. And like to notice, you guys notice details in every episode and then you're recalling specific bits of dialogue from five episodes ago that this thing is a callback to. I'm like, I can't even watch the show now without you.

It's essential. So this is like a real thrill for me. I can't wait to listen to you more. Oh my God. Thank you so much. This is a thrill for me. I'm so excited that you're in my network, that you're my co-worker. It's a thrill to me.

Thanks, Zach. All right. Go back to your actual job instead of recommending TV shows to a blank slate. Thank you, Joanna Robinson. I'll see you soon. See you soon. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime.

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All right, let's do a little newsy interlude here because sometimes the news cycle just feed you something just that's irresistible. happens to be right when I'm about to go on vacation, and it happens to be about Luca Donjic, who is eligible to sign an extension with the Lakers in three days when I will be on vacation somewhere, actually close to Luca's homeland in Slovenia. I think Lakers fans should probably be optimistic that something will get done with Luca in the summer, maybe right away, who knows. But the predictable news item in question was, we all saw the men's health story with Luca where he looked like a completely different person in shape, cut, jawline, all that. We already talked about it on this podcast and I was just waiting waiting for the follow-up and I knew

exactly how it was going to be worded and the athletic in a story about Luca and a story about the story in men's health really delivered here's the line I want to read from that story it's a good story this the body the publicity the determined look in his eyes the sweat reflecting the spotlights it's all a part of a bigger plan that plan according to summer out Donchich was going to be fulfilled no matter what happened in his pro career. And that's what I was waiting for. The idea from Lucas Camp that this was coming no matter what. And it's just this perfect twist of the knife to the Mavs. Like you could have kept him and had the same experience happened to him, the same getting in shape thing. Had nothing to do with the trade. It was coming anyway.

It makes the Mavs look bad. It makes Luka look good. There's probably some truth to it because, you know, as I've said before, earlier this week, that leg injury was really. that could have been the wake-up call on its own, separate from the trade. That was really the first season of Lucas' career that was derailed due to an injury that was probably in part related to his conditioning. And so maybe the wake-up call happens if he stays in Dallas. That said, I'm sure the trade and the subsequent sort of leaking bad stuff about Luca and his conditioning and his habits, I'm sure that didn't exactly hurt his motivational levels

to get in shape. And I think in terms of like the reaction to that men's health story, I think I was guilty of it. And a lot of us were of missing like the most important part of the story in between the sort of chortling about Luca finally getting in great, great shape. And he's always been in good shape. He can't be an NBA player at that level and not be in very good shape. And chortling about the Mavericks and who should be angry or should the Mazz be mad. Should Mazz fans be mad? Should Lakers fans be happy?

All this. We miss the most important part. if this lasts, and we've seen periods of Luca getting in shape and then getting back into less good shape, I don't think we've ever seen him look like this. If this lasts, the big story is the Lakers have a top three NBA player in the kind of condition he's never been in in his career. Like, that's the story. And then that made me think of LeBron James. And it made me think, shouldn't this like really excite LeBron James playing with that version of Luca Dantitch, a guy who was far and away, best player on a team that made the conference finals two years ago in the better conference,

which just gets better and better every year. And they made the finals a season and a half ago, whatever it was, like very recently, the 2024 finals. Shouldn't that excite LeBron? And that made me think of the statement that has really defined the NBA offseason. The statement that Rich Paul put out when LeBron opted in to $52.6 million, opted in when he could have been a free agent and signed anywhere he wanted for any amount of money that was available.

And that statement, I wanted to reread it. because it's been so parsed and it's been a while now. LeBron wants to compete for a championship, Paul said. He knows the Lakers are building for the future. I want to stop there. We'll keep on. He understands that, but he values a realistic chance of winning it all. He understands that, but he values a realistic chance of winning at all.

We're very appreciative of the partnership that we've had for eight years with Jeannie Buss and Rob Polinka and consider the Lakers as a critical part of his career. We understand the difficulty in winning now while preparing for the future. We do not want to evaluate what's best for LeBron at this stage. We do, sorry, want to evaluate what's best for LeBron at this stage in his life and his career. He wants to make every season he has left count. And the Lakers understand that, blah, blah, blah. It sounds like he's talking about like a team that is going tanking around him when they have this player,

Luke Adonchich, who looks like this. And by the way, I was having a debate over dinner with some NBA people. in Summer League about even now after watching the Thunder win the championship, even now after watching Luca get injured, and this is before the men's health store and all that, would you take Luca over SGA? And like a year ago, I would have taken Luca. Now, I don't think that's like an open and shut case,

despite everything that SGA just did. That's how good Luca is. That's how important his size is. And I read that statement. I'm like, LeBron's talking about the Lakers. Like they're the Hornets and him. Like they're the wizards in him. And they have Luca.

And it just something is strange. So then you go through the exercise of like, well, it reminded me, by the way, of this book I'm reading by your own whitesman, a Hollywood ending. You can pre-order it now. It reminded me in the section I read last night about in the off season or during the season of 2022, I think, when LeBron name checked the Rams GM who had said, fuck them picks and talked up the Cavs front office and all of this sort of like vague sending signals of unhappiness with the administration. and it made me think then and it makes me think now, what else did you want him to do? Like, if you're unhappy, and I'm not going to posit that LeBron is unhappy, I don't know if he's unhappy anymore.

That statement certainly evinces a level of unhappiness. But, like, what did you want the Lakers to do this summer? They have one first round pick to trade, thanks in part to the Russell Westbrook deal, which they're still digging and digging and digging and digging out of. And a deal that, by the way, this book makes clear, and the reporting at the time made clear, LeBron was a fan of and seems to have been,

according to this book and reporting at the time, involved in sort of like he was in the know about that deal and the alternate buddy heel deal. So you have one first round pick, a bunch of swaps. What are you getting for that? What's the name out there that you want? If you want the Lakers to go all in win now mode alongside Luca and you, what's the big name you want? By the way, the Lakers, I think, a good offseason.

DeAndre Aiton, Marcus Smart, Jake Laravia, some other stuff. I think they've rounded out their team pretty well. if you put Austin Reeves and one first round pick and some swaps on the table, find me the name you're going to get. I mean, there was not a lot of big name guys that changed teams this year. You could get something. Could you try to get Jared Jackson Jr.?

Maybe. I don't know. I mean, Austin Reeves is about to be an unrestricted free agent who's going to get a big raise, and it's one first round pick because you owe one to Utah for dumping Russ, and you owe one to Dallas for Luca. So, like, I don't know what the move is that. he wants. So is that what LeBron might be unhappy about? Maybe.

Is he unhappy that they traded Anthony Davis, his buddy and his fellow clutch client, champion co-star? I don't really think so. I mean, there was an ESPN story a couple weeks ago about LeBron in this situation in which the reporting was that they understood that when Luca falls into your lap, you got to take them.

And if the price is AD, the price is AD. I don't even think Clutch was mad about AD going to Dallas. AD and Nico Harrison have been closed for a long time. I think that was sort of on their long-term radar anyway from what I had heard. So I don't think that's what it was. Is it the immediate attempt to get a rim-running center in Mark Williams right after the Luca trade to appease Luca.

Did that make it seem like, well, man, we've been agitating. Adi doesn't want to play center, you know, and they get this new guy in and immediately they're building the team in his image and then the deal gets rescinded, now they have eight and et cetera. I mean, okay, but like in what world was this not going to be about Luca Dantzich? when the 26-year-old first team, all-N-B-A player, falls into your lap. Of course, everything now becomes about Luca Donchich. That's just the reality of it.

And why does it have to be about one or the other? Why can't, and I'm not saying anyone thinks this. I'm just thinking out loud. I'm not saying LeBron is still mad about any of this if he ever was. But I'm just like, you hear this over and over again. Well, it's about Luca now and is LeBron. LeBron's never been, LeBron has never been on a team where he was not the centerpiece of the team for now and for later and now he's not now lucca is well why does it have to be one or the other

why can't it be both this is exactly the kind of player lebron should want at the end of his career a guy who can share ball handling duties with him now does lucca have to offload a little bit more of that stuff than he has in the past even with kairie maybe but it's not like we haven't seen lucca with another ball dominant player having great success lebron should at age 4041 want to give up even more of the ball handling duty than he already has to Austin Reeves. He should want to be an opportunistic cutter, an opportunistic hit-ahead transition player. Give me a post up against mismatches. I don't have to dominate the ball all the time.

I can save what little energy I have left for some defensive possessions and some rebounding. He should absolutely want that. It's a great fit for him. And it could be about both. And by the way, in the wake of the men's health article, they now have tied with Minnesota and the clippers. Actually, no, just tie with Minnesota ahead of the clippers. the fourth best odds to win the West.

That doesn't sound great, but it's still real. Like the West is really good. And that's my point about what was the move? What was the move that could have gotten them to the Oklahoma City, Houston, Denver stratosphere? The way the Rockets and the Nuggets nailed the offseason, that's just a tough group to crack. It's a tough group to crack when you're digging out from one bad trade that sent

your franchise teetering in all different directions. That's the rush trade. And two super duper max contracts. It's just hard. You don't like they're so lucky, not lucky. They're so smart and lucky to have gotten Austin Reeves, a third great player at a cheap price, both when they got him and now. You know, like, they're a really good team of the Western Conference. They had a good offseason.

They're fourth favorites. I mean, like, this should be a great situation. Is he not psyched that the Lakers don't appear to have had extension talks with him? Well, his agent, Rich Paul, has publicly denied that and said we haven't even asked for an extension, according to Dave McManaman at ESPN. Maybe it's just nothing. Maybe it's just sort of a realization that this sort of Lakers, LeBron AD championship contender thing had and now has run its course. And maybe LeBron doesn't think he can win big in L.A. anymore that realistically contend. But again, what was the move?

And where are you going to go? Dallas was the hot name right away when that statement came out, hotter than Cleveland. Okay, like if you get to Dallas and in a year, Kyrie is fully healthy and AD's there. Cooper flags there. Like, that's exciting. That's exciting. It's undeniably exciting. It's still in the West, and you still have those behemoths to go through.

And maybe in a year when Kyrie is fully healthy again. And I'm not saying Kyrie is going to be out for this whole season. I don't know. I'm just saying fully healthy. Maybe something bad happens in Houston. Maybe Denver loses a couple more bench players. Maybe the West opens up a little bit before the Wembenyama storm erupts, really. But, like, you know, it's still the West.

Cleveland, no, you're telling me, Cleveland, that's interesting. You move east into that. into that conference, into the JV, that's interesting. But like, how are you getting there? There's still been no trade buzz. There's certainly been no buyout buzz. The Lakers just got sold at a $10 billion evaluation to Mark Walter. You think his first move once in a year going to buy out LeBron, this guy who sells

a gazillion tickets and helps our ticket prices go up and all that? I don't see that happening. So LeBron, Luca, just, you know, let's make it work. Like, this is a really fun, exciting team. Is it as good as Oklahoma City? No. Denver, no, Houston, probably not. So what?

Maybe you stay healthy. Maybe LeBron can take it a little easier in the regular season. Get to the playoffs. Maybe you have a puncher's chance to do some damage. That's fun. There's honor in that. Speaking of honor in that, that's been my catchphrase for the Warriors in the twilight of Steph Curry's career.

Real quickly, ESPN, Shams Trania, and Anthony Slater reported yesterday, as I'm taping as it's Thursday, that the Cominga negotiations remain at a stalemate that the Warriors are offering what is essentially a one-plus-one. with a team option at about $22.5 million a year, and Cominga is not interested in ceding that level of control, signing what could just be a one-year deal that the Warriors would sort of kind of view as a trade piece more than anything else. It could be a while.

It's messy. It's messy. I think toxic is actually not too much of an exaggeration for how bad it is between Cominga and the Warriors at this point. And I've said already, that despite the record with Butler and Curry being so good, I just don't see a realistic roadmap for them to make the finals again and barring some crazy unforeseen transaction down the line

in the Steph era. The West is just too good and they're too dependent on aging players. And then, you know, the two timelines thing more or less didn't materialize. And that's why I've said before, the comminga transaction, whatever form it takes, whether it's a sign and trade now, a sign and delayed, like a delayed sign in trade or something like that is one of the two or three most important pending transactions in the NBA. Because if there's any hope of the warriors salvaging not only the end of the Curry era, but salvaging the crumbs of what was supposed to be the two timelines plan, it lies in either comminga popping. And that just doesn't seem likely to happen with the Warriors.

That bridge is on fire, if not burned out completely. Kaminga turning into trade assets that really boost the present and or future of the team. The kings are involved. The Warriors don't like those assets. The Warriors shouldn't really love those assets. They're not changing the Warriors' lives, whatever they are. And the sad part is it might already be too far gone. Like, Kaminga just hasn't had a steady enough role with the Warriors.

His trade value just isn't maybe as high as it needs to be for the Warriors to get what they need to get for him. and I still think the qualifying offer is a nightmare option for both teams. It might be more of a nightmare option for the Warriors even than it is for Cominga, because they just cannot afford to have him for a year at $7 million or whatever it isn't, just have him walk. So restricted free agency stinks. It stinks for Josh Getty. It sticks for Camas.

And it stinks for Jonathan Kaminga and it stinks for another restricted free agent whose name I'm blanking out on. But Sala V, I'm going on vacation. And with that. we're going to turn to Mets Corner, I think, with Sean Fennessey. Let's go. Mets Corner! Let's go, Sean Fennessey. We made a couple of trades for some relief pitchers. I don't know who we gave up. I got no idea what's going on. I know we need some freaking relief pitchers because our starters can't pitch more than five innings unless David Peterson is pitching. Sean Fennessey, thanks for joining us on Mets Corner. How are you feeling about the team? Happy to be here. What a perilous time to be recording. It's 903 a.m. Pacific. We've got a few more hours left.

in the trade deadline. Will anything happen while we are talking to make great podcasting? I don't know. You've had this so many times before in the NBA. Yeah, it happens. And the difference now is, I don't really care if it happens or not. I'm not stressed about it. I won't know anything about what's going on. The Mets have already made two big trades. I don't know how many big moves they have left in them. But I need you to tell me about Tyler Rogers, who I just, we just played the Giants, so I saw him come in. And my daughter, I was very happy to show my daughter a true sidewinder and how strange it looks. And then they come off to top road for this guy, Ryan Helsey,

who apparently is a closer, who throws 99. We're just loading up on bullpen guys, which is great, because we just optioned brazo ban, which kind of surprised me down to AAA, and our bullpen's been leaking oil. Well, yeah, this is the number one need that they've had. The Stearns regime with the Mets has been fairly leak-proof, and this is the first year where for roughly a month,

we've been hearing from reporters, this team desperately needs to add bullpen arms. They desperately need to add arms. Here are some arms they might get. Turns out Tyler Rogers and Ryan Hilsley were never mentioned, really, as potential names. So I guess in that way, Stearns' regime is still somewhat leakproof. But two huge additions. You know, we're doing this thing on my movie podcast, The Big Picture, called 25 for 25,

where we're counting down our favorite 25 movies of the century. And we just did an episode about Moneyball. And you'll remember in Moneyball, one of the key contributors to that Oakland A's team that is featured in the movie, Chad Bradford. Oh, I thought you were going to say Ring Cohn when he does the first. the slow balling of the fist. Well, trade deadline obviously is a critical part of that whole movie, and guys getting dealt is fascinating.

But he picks up Rincon, but he signs Chad Bradford in the offseason, who's a sidewinder. And Tyler Rogers is kind of the spiritual successor. And he's nasty. He doesn't get a lot of swing and misses, but he pretty consistently gets out. So I think he's got a 1.80 a R.A. this season, and it's been really effective.

He is 34 years old and a free agent to be. So, who'd they give up? You know, anything about the day? dudes they gave up. Tidwell, I know because he's been on the big leagues, but everyone is concerned about this Gilbert guy who apparently was a hot shot prospect is not quite panned out. He's already 25. But that's the one that people, the Mets freaks, were like, oh man, we got fleece. We gave up too much. We overpaid. Tell me if we really did get fleeced. Well, he's a name we know because we got him when we traded Justin Verlander in 2023 when the season fell apart. And we thought we were going to be

contenders that year. And we were a little over our skis. And so the regime decided to disassemble that team. They traded Max Scherzer. They traded Justin Verlander. Hold on. Hold on. For years. For like three years.

Yeah. He was one of the first big true free agent signings. I do remember this. A gazillion dollars a year. Yes. He got a huge contract and he was kind of out of gas coming off of a season where he had pitched for the Dodgers. Anyhow, they traded both of those guys. When they traded Verlander, they paid down his salary or a bulk of his salary to go back to the Houston Astros.

but they got too high in outfield prospects, one of which was Drew Gilbert. This was three years ago. He was 22. He seemed like he was going to be a really good corner outfielder. He's really struggled in AA and AAA since he came to the Mets. However, in the last roughly six weeks, he's been abusing the ball and looks more like a significant player.

Scouts say he's basically a fourth outfielder. So he's just the name we know very well. I trust the scouts then. I'm going to go with the scouts. I'm going to say that they're right and that's good. I hope so. obviously we also gave up Tidwell, who was a second round pitching prospect some years ago, and has been just fine. He, I think, charts out to be a long-term, long reliever. And Jose

Buto, who's a reliever who I like, who was on the roster and was pitching with some consistency, but is a flawed reliever. And it didn't ever seem like David Stern's believed in him. He came up as a starter, too, and they transitioned him to a reliever. So I don't think there was a lot of faith in those guys. And so, on paper, it looks like a lot. If Tyler Rogers is as good as he has been for the last 50 games with the Giants, huge pickup. Buto, again, people need to remember. I'm not watching this with the eyes that I watched the NBA with. It felt like every time I saw him come in a game, it was one of those.

All right, we're down 7-1. Can you eat some innings for us? And not like we're up to 1 in the 7th. We trust you to get these three critical outs. I think that's pretty much right. I think he is a two-to-three inning guy who's coming in games where you're trying to manage a situation in which you're losing. and that's really all they imagined him as. He was never going to be a critical part.

Actually, last season in the playoffs, it was clear that Carlos Mendoza didn't really trust him and he didn't pitch very often in the playoffs at all. And so I think that tells you also what you need to know about how they thought about him. I mean, I don't know anything about these prospects. Everything you're saying makes me happy. The few prospect names I do know are the star pitcher prospects.

And like those are the ones I just, an ace starting pitcher, whatever percent chance any of those guys have of turning into that is the thing I hold dearest to. Ryan Helsley, what do we give up for him? He sounds, I looked up his stats, obviously. He's also a free agent, but he looks like, I mean, he's been a closer. So this is, the formula is, can we lock down the last three innings of the game, obviously? And this guy feels like people are, his whiff rate with his slider, I'm learning, is like 46%.

That's apparently very high. That's exciting. He throws absolute gas. You should absolutely go look at. his numbers against the Philadelphia Phillies lineup in their career because they are miserable. We should have led with this that it's just an arms race between the Phillies and the Mets. That's what it is. That's what it is. Yeah. After they picked up Duren from the twins, obviously I think that incentivized Sterns to get even more aggressive and make this deal yesterday. And they gave up three

prospects, but Helsley, he just has nasty stuff. He's having, I would say, a fine year, not an elite year in terms of his track record, but he had 50 saves last year. He is a literal top seven, top eight closer in the game. So slotting him into the eighth inning. It's pretty darn exciting behind Edwin Diaz. You put Rogers there. You put Reid Garrett there. And then is this the best bullpen in baseball? It's certainly close. And they may not even be done. So that's really exciting. We didn't even mention Gregory Soto, who they picked up last week from the Baltimore Orioles. Yeah, immediately blew a game. Thanks, Gregory Soto. That wasn't ideal. I think that was more of a brain fart where he made an error in that inning. But nevertheless, he is still at least a usable arm to pitch in the fifth and

ending for this team. So they're pretty loaded right now. And the guys they gave up to pick up Helsley, you know, Jesus Baez is like a fringe top 10 prospect for them. And he's only 20, and he might end up being a really good ballplayer. But he hasn't really hit in the minors at all. And then Nate Dome was a third round pick last year and a guy named Frank Ellisalt, who I'm not going to pretend I've ever heard of. He's not really a ranked prospect in their system. So it weirdly seems like a lighter load for Helsley than it does for Rogers. But like Rogers, he's a free agent at the end of the year. Edwin Diaz has an opt-out. Ryan Stannick is a free agent at the end of the year. Like a lot of these guys are all, this isn't all in moment is what I'm saying.

For the first time, it's seemingly in forever. And we'll be able to know in six hours when the deadline is up. But this feels like they're going all in. And there's a big reason for that. I got to tell you about this because you'll understand this with some NBA context. One, we talked about the ages of the core of the team and that these guys need to win now. Two, there's probably going to be a lockout in 2027. And Steve Cohen, I think, is, probably thinking that there could be, if not a salary cap, some more dramatic measures that are instituted that disallow him from spending as much money as he wants. And they know that they got to make this happen in the next two years. So why not try now? Just when I get back into

baseball, we're looking at a work stoppage. I mean, I saw the story that Jeff Passon put out about Bryce Harper cursing out Manfred in the locker room, which I thought was kind of cool. It was great. It was hilarious. It takes some balls to go up to the commissioner and curse at his face to get the fuck out of our clubhouse if you want to talk about a salary cap um all in i mean again we we got six more hours we're taping this now only because i'm i'm literally leaving um during the trade deadline so whatever happens happens i can tell you i was driving around today doing a couple last minute errands and i had talk radio on there was a lot of uh al contra talk about the the host on ESPN radio really want the met's to go get a top line starter and he's the best

guy available, et cetera, et cetera, almost no talk about another bat. And I don't know, I mean, they talked about like this, this platoon in center field, how Taylor doesn't hit at all, and Viantos and Mauricio. But it has been interesting, I guess minus the last couple of games against the Padres, that Mauricio and Vientos have kind of been surging right up until the trade deadline. And you always don't know what to do with these things where, like, a guy who might be one of the young guys you trade has a two-week hot street. the time that would make you think again about doing it. So, like, I understand there's,

like, Maricio, Vientos, the third, Taylor, McNeil, et cetera. How does Marte fit in as a DH? How, like, is it starting pitcher? Is it bat? Like, what do you do? Like, what do they need the most? I mean, I think they need both. And if you're already starting to trade fringe top 10 prospects, as long as you're protecting those top five guys, which are the three pitching prospects you mentioned, and Carson Benj and Jet Williams, if you can keep dealing, around those five prospects, I think they need a center fielder who can hit. And I don't think there is anybody beyond Luis Robert Jr. And tell me about him, because I looked up his stats and I'm like, this guy had one

random good offensive year. Is he good? Why is everyone talking about him? He obviously has the tools. He hit 38 home runs two seasons ago. Everyone thought he was going to be a legit MVP candidate. And he just completely came back to earth. He's been in a bad situation.

The White Sox are one of the worst franchises in baseball. There's a suggestion that he's not motivated, which is not something you want to hear. The Mets being so tied to him for the last three weeks makes me think there's no chance they're going to trade for him because they're not usually so revealing about their intentions, but I strongly feel they need a bat. And it doesn't seem like they're going to try to go get one aggressively. But even during that seven-game winning streak, Zach, they hit 205 with runners in scoring position. I just can't watch it anymore. They're 28th out of 30 teams with runners in scoring position this year. The base is loaded no outs. I'm like conditioned myself. So here

comes a double play or a strikeout and then a double play. Some of it is luck and chance and baseball is very strange with these kinds of things, but there's, I think, only one other team in the bottom 10 in that statistic that has a winning record. So it is some kind of indicator of long-term success and they just can't fucking hit and that's in those situations. So I think they actually need basically like a full-time DH circumstance where they signed Winker, they have Marte who can't really play in the field and they're trying to figure out this balance between Viantos, Mauricio, and Bady. And it's just kind of an odd fit. with all of these guys. I would love to see a guy who can basically get 400 of

bats in the season in that slot, and they don't really have it right now, unfortunately. As far as starting pitcher goes, yeah, Sandy Alcounter would be great. He's coming off major surgery. He's been really bad this season. His last two starts have been darn good. He looks like the old Sandy Alcantra. He's a Cy Young winner. He would be sick, and he's also under team control for another two years. I'm looking at this Robert, Robert Jr. guys' stats again. All-Star finished 12th in MVP voting. he didn't play a lot. Was that because he was young or injured?

I mean, he's only got two years where he's hit 100 games and he'll hit it again this year. That's why I'm looking at his home runs like 11, 13, 12, 38, 14, 11, but part of that is just games played. Yeah, I mean, I think he was just a slightly slower developing prospect. I'm not totally familiar with his injury history, so I can't pretend to know everything about why he didn't play as much. But he's become more of an everyday player in the last three or four years. that 38 home run season now looks like an anomaly, but at the time, I mean, that was a five-win

season that he had as a center fielder. Five-win center-fielders who hit over 30 home runs are pretty rare in baseball right now. So if they could revive that, he's incredibly valuable, but he also has a $20 million player option next year, which would make him an incredibly expensive player on a team. And if he doesn't live up to the expectations, that kind of hamstrings you going into the off-season. So there's a lot of, to me, I would love for them to not be running Tyrone Taylor. out there for 60% of the games. As much as I enjoy watching him and think he's actually quite a clutch player, his OPS is like 578.

I mean, it's pretty abysmal. He's not an everyday player. So I hope they do something. If they don't, I think we're going to be kind of grinding our way through 60 games, watching them strike out three times in a row with a runner on third base and none out. And that pains me. So I'm glad that you just said $20 million player option.

Because, look, I guess I'm just going to have to learn a whole other color coding system on spot track. other than the NBA. The NBA one, obviously, I know like every color, what every little thing means. Baseball, there's like oranges and yellows and pre-arbs and Arb 1 and Arb 3 and I don't know what any of this shit means. But I see red $20 million, $2026, 27 next to Luis Robert Jr. You're telling me that's a player option. And that, that's a level that he would, we would expect him to opt into based on his level of play. The red is a club option. So it would be the Mets decision to pick that option up. Now, they obviously could let him walk, but if you're

going to trade, I mean, I don't think they're going to trade Mark Viantos at this point, but if they traded Luis Anhala Cunia straight up for Luis Robert Jr. And it was kind of like a challenge trade where you see whether your free agent to be is potentially less valuable than a guy who's under club control for the next five years like Acuna is. That's kind of an interesting challenge to those two teams and they're in completely different situations. The White Sox are trying to build long term. The Mets are trying to win now. But if Luis Robert Jr. comes here and hits 175 for 50 games and sucks in the playoffs. I don't know if you're going to want to pick up that $20 million option. Is Lisa Angelucunya? Is he like just Ray Ordonez but second base? Like can he hit at all?

Well, he's got this incredible pedigree because his brother, Ronald, is one of the five best players in the sport. Yeah. And so I think we've kind of deluded ourselves into thinking he's something more than a utility infielder. But he's ultimately a speedster utility infielder, I think. I don't think he's going to hit much in in the majors, but he's a useful player to have on a contending team because, you know, you now know about the quote-unquote Manfred Man, the ghost runner on second base in extra innings. You love to pinch run with a guy like a Kunya in an extra inning game. You love to have a guy like that on the base paths just sitting on the bench ready to go. Plus, he can play three positions in the infield. So I don't know. I think he could be valuable as a 25th man on the roster,

but he's not somebody I'm emotionally connected to. He's not really, ultimately a big part of their long-term plans. Juan Soto got injured a couple of games ago, fell the ball off his shin. You made me aware of this via text. I was not watching the game. That's fine. It doesn't matter.

It was painful. No, it was painful when I got that text from you. It looked painful for him. I mean, he was with the trainer for five minutes, and then he finishes that bat and came out of the game. It sounds like it's not serious day-to-day, not on the injured list, whatever. I bring it up only because all the stuff about the pitching

and the relievers. I mean, none of this, this is all moot if the best guys don't hit. And I'm really starting to worry about Lindor because he had that hellish

O for 31 and then he had two good games and everyone was like throwing a party that the slump was over and he's over a lot of, like, ton, does he always strike out

this much? Tons of strikeouts, struck out with the bases loaded the other day. And he had the tow thing that he missed like a broken

is, what is it, a pinky toe, I think? Broke a toe and, like, missed one game. Like, and Soto is, even Soto's slumps are so amplified by, like, walks and whatever that they're not painful. Alonzo is slumping. I don't really worry about that. But, like, if those three guys don't produce at elite levels, like, none of this other noise is going to matter. And the Lindor stuff, this is like, I'm going to just ballpark 14 out of the last 16 games have been just, like, totally invisible offensive games. I'm getting worried, and I don't know enough to really how worried I.

should be my Mariners fan friend in college was like don't worry about Lindor he's too good like this won't last I'm like all right I mean it's like if he strikes out with the bases loaded again I guess I'll just shrug it off we've seen this essentially every single year from him it's just unusual for it to be happening in July he usually has a long stretch where he doesn't hit every season I'm a little concerned that the toe is bothering him more than we know and he isn't the kind of guy who would never actually say that and just say I need to be better I need to be better if it is actually bothering him you know he made an error yesterday that was very uncommon for him. He's just been a little bit

leakier than you'd like. And as he goes, they go. When he hits, they win. That's just a fact. Since he's joined the team, I think when he's had two hits or more, their winning percentage is crazy. And there was a reason why they bumped him up to hit leadoff last season. There's a reason why he stays in that one or two hole pretty much all the time.

He is the straw that stirs the drink. You know, the same way Reggie Jackson was. He's the guy who gets them going. Pete has always been streaky too. I am a little bit more concerned. about Pete maybe than other people are because they need him to clear the bases. It's the whole design of the offense is that while Soto is a masher, he's basically an on-base percentage guy. And so if he's not driving in runs, this whole conceit of the team where

like five through nine in the lineup is a little dodgy, they can't win games if Pete isn't getting two RBIs a game roughly. And he was on pace for some crazy Hack Wilson numbers in the first quarter of the season. Those two guys I read are hitting 200 since June 13th, which is the lowest batting averages for everyday players in the sport, Lindor and Alonzo. That's fucking scary, man. That's really bad. These are two of the 25 best players in the game, and they've been awful for six weeks. Really scary. Now, I realize this is a snapshot at a Nadir for Lindor, but 311 on base percentage would be career low. 741 OPS would be second lowest of his career. It's just like, not to sound NBA definitive about it, but like that's just not good enough from what I understand about his role on the team.

And five through nine, I mean, that's what's been interesting. If you want to be a glass half full guy, the bottom of the lineup carried them to like a bunch of those wins in their seven game wing streak. Alvarez looks like he might be a guy. Mauricio's had a couple big home runs. Like still can't hit lefties, I guess, but has hit a couple big home runs. Viantos hit a grand slam in a game they should have won in blue and it was robbed of another home run. that game by Tatis Jr. I already hate Fernando Tatis Jr. by the way. Probably everybody, is he like a beloved character, baseball player? Well, he's an insane athlete and has crazy

swagger, but if he's not on your team, he's a little hard to root for. I mean, you saw him steal that home run from Viantos. That was an insane catch. Insane. But I was, is he for now, like, his dad is Fernando Tatis should I remember. He is. The same guy in Montreal Expo. Is Fernando Tatis not the guy who hit two grand slams in one inning? The same man. Is he the only one ever to do that? He's the only one, as far as I know, he's the only one. That is one of the coolest. I was trying to explain that to my daughter during the Padre's game of the night

about how insane that is, how unlikely that is. That's very cool. Good memory by you on Tatis. But the bottom of the lineup guys have done their job in the last couple of weeks. Yeah, they've been better for sure. Maricio is the most intoxicating for me because he just hit home runs off relievers that never give up home runs in that Giants game and in that Padres game. And so that's the sort of thing that you,

you see and you're like, okay, so the raw talent is so profound with him. And he's still, because he lost a year to injury, is still basically so underdeveloped that the idea of him being that guy, that 30 home run, rangy defender at third base, we talked about it like a month ago. That's been such a black hole for them over the years. I'd love to see that shake out. But he's not, he's not ready yet. So it's this real pickle with the timing of this team. Like all three of those guys, was taking a step back, Beatty being inconsistent, and Maricio is still developing. You know, I think they can have good two or three weeks stretches. I'm not expecting Maricio to hit 400 for the rest of the year.

I think that's pretty unlikely. Speaking of home runs, they do the photo snapshot after every home run, which is just delightful, and I'm glad that they still do that. Why has like a skateboard or surfboard been added to the photos in the last couple of weeks? Is that a West Coast road trip thing? Like all of a sudden there's like a colorful, I think it's a skateboard. I don't know what, or like a snowboarder, so I don't know what it is. Well, they also added the flip-flop.

Did you see the flip-flop? The chunk-pleta? Yeah, maybe I may, I don't know. Maybe I'm confusing it, but something has been added to the photo spread. You know, they're just getting creative. They got that Steve Cohen budget for gags in the building. And I don't know. It's like a very kind of mystical, superstitious kind of team where routines and traditions,

which, of course, is very common in baseball, were a huge part of their success last year. I'm sure you remember Grimmis and all that OMG and everything that they did. And they're trying to hold on to some of that stuff. It seems like a real good vibes space, but I can't say I understand the surfboard thing too much other than just like Cowabanga surfs up on the West Coast. I don't know. I like all of it. We've already talked about this.

How if I were a baseball player, I would be, like, I remember watching, you know, I remember watching the, there was, I mean, I had the VHS tape of like the 1986 Mets retrospective thing and it was awesome. And they would like do hot foots in the dugout and stuff. which probably unsafe and shouldn't have been done, but I would have been all about, like, pranks, bullpen rituals, trying to catch a home run in the bullpen. I would be all about it.

I love it. Yeah, they had Roger McDowell on those teams, and he was the all-time prankster, and I don't know if they have one of those guys specifically. I felt it was hard to watch Jose Aglacius in this Padre series and how special he was for the Mets last year, and even in that series, just doing a couple of things that just were really crafty

and pissed me off when he wasn't on our teams. So there is a little mojo missing, but they're still a fun team. So 45 and 24 was the high watermark for the team. Okay. Since then, and maybe this is just the fandom and me returning, it seems like it's alternated between winning streaks and cataclysm. Like, can the team just lose like one game and then win the next one and lose one and win the next one? It's like seven-game win streak.

everything's going great, go to the Padres, get swept, everything's terrible. It just feels like every loss now is like the damn breaking. And like every time they lose one game, I'm like, well, they're not going to win for 10 days. I'm going to have to wait a while. Not 10 days because they play every day. But you know what I mean? Do you feel this – am I just not used to the ups and downs of a baseball season after so much time away?

That might be it, but there's just something funky this year. I've been saying it to my producer on The Big Picture is also a Mets fan, Jack Sanders. and we talk about Mets pretty much every day. And something is just a little bit off on the team. And it doesn't mean that they don't have incredible players and it doesn't mean that they don't have great moments like a seven-game winning streak where they look like the hottest team in the sport.

But there are just a couple of things that have been off. The fact that they can't get more than five innings out of any starter, not named Peterson, as you mentioned. The fact that they don't hit with runners in scoring position, the fact that there's not a lot of native confidence when you're sitting and watching the team, despite the fact that they're clearly one of the best teams in the National League. We just don't feel confident.

And some of that is we're so scarred. Like, I'm so scarred by the team. I can't even really process happiness with them. Last year was so disorienting for me because they were winning games that I often felt like other teams won against us. And so that lack of confidence seeps in every time you hit a rough patch or something doesn't go your way. But I still think there's something off.

There's something missing. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's a player. I don't know if it is the sense that Mendoza has like kind of taken a step back as a manager this year. They've had a weird stretch with umpires in the last two weeks. I'm sure you've noticed. Soto was right, by the way, on both the calls that he protested. And I'm glad the manager came in and got thrown out instead of Soto.

But yes, they've had a little testiness with the umps. Yeah. And they've been, I would say they've been upping them a little tough recently. They've had, they've encountered some wider strike zones. Soto, obviously, especially is the sort of the master of the strike zone. and he takes great offense when someone calls a ball a strike against him. But, you know, Brandon Nimmo had a couple of really tough at bats in that San Diego series. Oh, brutal.

A three-pitched strikeout where they were all balls. Yeah. So something is just, I don't know, cosmically, I'm just a little shaken right now, but maybe they add Sandy Alcantra and a bat, and I head into August feeling excited. It's funny because I had JJ on last week in your stead, and I said to him, like, again, I'm coming at this from a position of complete ignorance, but having watched this team off and on now for a decent chunk of time, I have never felt like, oh yeah, this has the vibe of a team that can win however many playoffs series you need to win to make the world series. They're just not consistent enough. And maybe it's just they just never get big hits.

It's just like every game is basis loaded, no out. They don't score. Maybe I just, something ineffable is just not like what the Brewers have going on right now. like that level of every loss I would take just like give me a week where you go three and four

just I would take that like every losing streak feels cataclysmic I agree the swings have been heavy I think with the exception of the Brewers pretty crazy late June

through July run no other team in the sport really has distinguished themselves though is great the Dodgers have just not been as good as we expected they've had a lot of injuries and pitching injuries especially

the Phillies are really flawed. I think they're going to be a tough out, but they also have a pretty weak bottom of the lineup. They obviously just reloaded in their bullpen. Their closer situation was a disaster this year. They've lost some really tough games in late innings. The Diamondbacks are not as good as we thought they were going to be. The Giants are not as good as we thought they were going to be.

The Padres are not even 10 games above 500, even though they just looked really tough against the Mets. It's just kind of, you know, the Cubs are good, but they're young in a couple of spots and their pitching is unproven in big spots. So I think one of the reasons why Stearns has been so aggressive thus far is because it just feels like it's wide open. It feels like if you make the right moves and you catch a wave and you get into the tournament, you could win. And we're feeling better than Yankee fans. Yankee fans are pissed right now.

The sports talk radio is just like fire Volpe into the stratosphere. It's just everybody hates the way the Yankees are playing. Can I ask you one last question before you go? Please. You said something that perked my brain up a little bit. said maybe Mendoza has taken a step back. And I'm so used to NBA fans questioning the coaches on the most like basic, like, how he didn't call a time out there.

And like coaching is so complex. I don't quite know how to evaluate baseball managers. Like I don't really know what they're what separates a good one. I know they set the lineup. They make the pitching decisions, all this stuff. But like what's the book on this guy? What's he good at? What makes a good baseball manager?

Someone who ironically was raised under Brett Boone or actually, excuse me, Aaron Boone, the Yankees manager. He was basically his number two for a number of years that the Yankees was hired away from them. And as someone who's described as having an incredible feel for the game. You know, somebody who, like, has been in baseball his entire life, really understands players. Is friendly to players, not a hard ass, understands the mechanics and strategy of the game very well. In his first season, he seemed to push every button correctly. The number one thing that he has done this year that has been a bit of a struggle is his sense of timing with pitching changes has seemed very awes.

And I think a lot of fans who don't understand the team as well as he would are like, why do you continue to pull pitchers after 86 pitches? We saw this with Sean Maniah this week and the Padres where it just won. By the way, as good as you advertised, that guy's nasty. Oh, he's awesome. He's awesome. And as long as he's healthy, he's going to be huge for them this year. But there's just this, you know, we have Clay Holmes who's basically a five-in-pitcher now

and he consistently is being taken out with 89-90 pitches. They're kind of trying to preserve his arm because he's never thrown this pitch as this many pitches in the season. And so Mendoza has been tasked with something tricky, which is he's got a staff that is not giving him length, but a bullpen that is deeply flawed. And so every day, if the bullpen makes a mistake, it looks like his mistake. And so he's just going to get more scrutiny. That's really what it boils down to. Whether or not he's actually worse or he's being outsmarted by other managers, it's all debatable. Also, the other thing that happens in baseball is we don't know how much control the upper management office has in moment-to-moment decisions like this.

What's the book that he's getting before every game about decisions that they want to see? Who is he being told is not available because of their expectations of what's going to happen with a guy's arm or how healthy they are or what have you. That is still a bit mysterious in the way that baseball operates. So I still like Mendoza. He seems like a very smart guy. He's a very open manager with the press, which I really appreciate. to be successful in New York, you really need to know how to handle the day-to-day anxieties of sad Mets fans like us.

And I think he does a good job of that, and I really want them to win with him. But I don't know. Maybe he's taking a step back. We just don't know. It's ironic you mentioned that taking guys out early. Peterson was the other big example of that recently. The other day when Montes was pitching, I don't trust Montes, by the way. I hate him.

I hate him. It's every, it's the fourth inning pitch 82, every single start. And he gave up like three smash line drives in a row. And I was saying to my daughter, like, he got to take him out. Like he's lost to stuff. And they kept him in. He gave up more stuff. I'm like, I can't.

I'm not a fan yet. Montas is the one move that David Stearns has made that I do not understand. That it was the first signing that they made in the offseason this year. And they gave him two years guaranteed for $34 million. And he has been at best an average pitcher for the last four seasons. And at worst, unplayable. and Stearns is so shrewd, and he was trying to time the market

to get ahead of what he thought was going to be an outsized pitching market, and he didn't re-sign a guy named Jose Cantana, who was really good for them, and Cantana eventually signed for, I think, for $5 million with the brewers at the end of free agency, and Kentana is having a significantly better season, and we already knew what we had with him.

So every time I see Montas pitch, I feel that phantom limb of Cantana, who I loved watching, who's like a really crafty 37-year-old vet who doesn't throw hard but gets guys out. And Montas, I just think, is going to screw us in the next two months. I'm just really nervous about him. All right. It's 1230 Eastern.

We've got five and a half hours ago. I'm going on vacation. I will have. I got Jeff Passons and the Nets beat writers, Twitter's refreshing. And I'm taking my mic to Croatia. I will watch some condensed games. I'm going to be in touch. If anything happens, Sean Fennacy,

the Mets Corner bat signal may go up from across the Atlantic, but your time is very valid, but I really appreciate you giving us some of it here on the joyful place that is Mets Corner. Let's go Mets. Thanks, Zach. Have an amazing trip, and I actually hope that we just go on a 40-game winning streak, and you don't have to call in from anywhere in Croatia.

If we go on a 40-game winning streak, not only will we do Mets Corner, I will be three sheets to the win by game number 15 and just shouting obscenities. around Dubrovnik. All right, bud, thank you. See you, Zach. All right, that's it for the most eclectic show in the history of the Zach Lowe show

and any prior podcast that me, Zach Lowe, was involved in. Thanks to Sean Fennessey, thanks to Joanna Robinson, thanks to Fred Katz, thanks to Jesse and Jonathan on production. I'll be back at some point at the latest in a few weeks. If something crazy happens while I'm abroad, I got my mic, I'm ready to go. I want to thank everybody for tuning in

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