The Zach Nichols Podcast - Chanelle Howell Exclusive Interview - Challenge USA 2 Finalist! | ZNP EP. 18

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

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Hey, y'all, it's Chanel from the Challenge USA2. I'm here on the Zach Nichols podcast, and we are talking all the shit. Welcome back to the Zach Nichols podcast. Here with my co-host, Mr. Zach Nichols. Do it. Let's hear it. Bob boom, Bob Bing. I wish I had to have played when I worked out.

Okay. I have to send speakers to your house. We have another challenge finalist in the building. Survivor contestant missed Chanel Howell. Hey. All the way from the big. real big apple. Yeah.

You're not one of those people that, like, lives in Brighton and says, yeah, Detroit. Yeah. No, you're, you're claiming it because you live right in Manhattan. Is that factual? Yeah, it's factual. I live in the best city in the world.

Well, I mean, you know, you could claim it, but, but. It's not debatable. Definitely not the best, definitely not the best basketball team here in Detroit. The Knicks aren't much better. We're at the Pissons game last night. We got shellacked by your favorite player,

LeBron James. I hate LeBron. I can't stand, Well, he gave us the business at 38 years old, literally just dominated us. How was the game? Did you have fun? Y'all got whooped. Yeah.

But you know what? I'm used to it because I'm a Knicks fan. Yeah. Oh, you're a Knicks fan. Yeah. Yeah. I live in the city. Why not?

Is that, so you're from the city. No, no. I'm from Connecticut. I moved to New York about six years ago. Just because like, it's like the closest big city to me. And I think that's just like the natural move, you know, when you want to leave your hometown. So like Chicago for us. Yeah.

Exactly. I almost said Shirek. Hopefully we're past those days. They caught myself. So is that, like they called, is that the tri-state area? Is that right? So what is that, like, the tri-state area? It's Connecticut, Jersey, New York.

Okay, okay. We have the impostors from like Jersey, Hoboken. Yeah, I was going to say, Jen always says, Apokin. She's like, that's not the city. Wow. Oh, yeah. Michelle knows all about that. I was going to say, man, I believe that's a Michelle thing.

Yeah. They try and claim the city. You're from Jersey. Yep. I had to take the ferry. Yeah. The ferry is actually kind of luxury. Like, not going to hold you.

Oh, I don't see. I don't do, because Jenna's from New York, so I spend time there. I can't do the city. I struggle there. Yeah. No, that's fair. Like, I've never been in the subway. Wow.

Nothing's more frightening for me than looking at the air coming out of there and like, I follow subway creatures. Yeah. I'm like, basically that's enough with me. Yeah. The subway is a very interesting place. Like, you have seen it all. all.

But the crazy thing is you're so jaded. So like someone will walk in, they'll do like a big old performance in front of you and you're just, and you like look down, you just keep moving, you know, because you're so used to the craziest shit on the subway. It's like,

no, no shit. Yeah. That thing is crazy. Well, you've experienced the depths of, you know, South America and Eastern Europe,

but you won't ride in New York subway? No. Oh, no. That tells everything you know about back in the city. Yeah. I mean, listen, if you live there,

subway is the most, efficient way to get around as quick. It's traffic like crazy in the city. So you get used to it. But obviously like it's just it's another world. And that's a that's a time is money thing as we know in the final time is money. So I've heard that there are down underneath New York City there are subway spots and stations that are just abandoned and not used anymore.

I'm sure. That's insane. I'm sure. There's like a whole other world going on to like that's when the Ninja turtles live. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. You know?

Like that's really something that goes on down there. Yeah. Like they'll just be like, yeah, we're not using this anymore. Underneath New York City has to be insane, like Swiss cheese. And that's an island. It's crazy. Yeah, men in black. New York City is insane.

Yes. The way I explain to people is when you're outside, it's the only place where I've ever been like outside, but you feel like you're still indoors. Yeah. Wow. You know what the crazy thing is too? Like there's a whole underground, like, type of world. I can get from like 40th Street to 50th Street completely underground,

not even having to come up for air. That's crazy. That's why they say New York is like literally its own culture. Period. Period. We'll get into more about New York and all the personal stuff. But you brought up Michelle. So we're going to talk about USA too and everything you got going on.

But real quick, definitely want to give you another round of applause for making a final in your first challenge. Come on. Do you give it to her one time? Thank you. Thank you. Honestly, did not think I was going to make the final. Like when I first started, I said, girl, just don't go home first. Like for sure.

Just don't go home first. And then I got like a little bit further. I said, oh, I can make it to the halfway point. That might be enough for a callback. Like, okay. And then once we got to the halfway point, I was like, man, my, my path looks clean. Oh, yeah. It looks clear.

I was like, just make it to a final. And then once I got to the final, I was like, why not, you know? Yeah, throw it all on the table. It's right now. Yeah. It was a fun ride watching. You were able to go through a whole. whole game without being voting into elimination once.

So the reason I bring that up is because, and I make a very big point to say, like before I started covering this stuff, I didn't put enough emphasis on your political game and what it takes to make it to a final. So, uh, master the Homer Simpson. Yeah. You know that gift where like he just sinks back into the bush?

That's exactly what you do. It's like, oh, time to vote. Well, yeah. Well, I bring that up. You got to go to the bathroom. A couple people have said behind the scenes, you were one of the most vocal people making stuff happen. So I am going to jump around with that question.

You were like Wendy Williams. Yeah. You had the coffee going. You had the conversations. Yeah. They were waking up and you were like, you know, a couple pots of coffee and two packs of six deep. Street conversating.

Talk to us about making TV. I was up early. Listen, every morning I was the first one up, I'd go upstairs, look around, take a lot. lap, see who's up, nobody's up. Maybe Michaela was up, Monty was up, but no. How early did your day start?

I don't even know. Yeah, there's no. What is time? Oh, really? Yeah, so you can have a watch. You just can't bring it to elimination rounds. A lot of people don't bring them. I would always bring one because that would be my alarm in the morning.

Got you, got you. So I always knew when I would wake up, but like, that's the weird thing. It's like, you really don't know what time you go to bed either. Right. Well, you know what? Eventually we did get clocks and I will say, like, very consistently, bedtime was like 1 a.m. 2 a.m.

Like, because especially eliminations, they don't start until 10 p.m. You know, like 11 p.m. And then you get back from, from, from eliminations at like 1 a.m. Then everybody's got to make a frozen pizza. You got to have a little bit of wine. You got to talk about what just went down.

And then, all right, it's time the wind down. It's 2 a.m. Yeah. You know. That is true. And then if you go out, you're getting back around that time anyways. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's crazy insight. And then you think, so you get up early. You're the first one. kind of add it ready to make stuff happen? Yeah, I mean, I like to, it's interesting because Survivor is different from the challenge. Survivor, if you catch someone up, you want to have a strategy session, you want to talk.

It is so interesting playing with the vets because y'all don't talk strategy like that. Like, I remember Bananas was one of my closest male allies in the game. And this man would be like, I'm not talking strategy. Like, he just would not do it. But I appreciate it, Wes, because he did talk a lot of strategy with me. and yeah yeah and like honestly Wes doesn't get enough props and credits because like he taught me so much about the game

while in it that I didn't get from a lot of other vets but yeah so I would just get up early in the morning I'd like you know chit chat build rapport really talk to people see you know see how they're feeling on a personal level though right so that when it's time to talk strategy I know that you like me you trust me we have a relationship You can't just come in and be like, so what about the game? You have to, you have to like you first, you know?

I think a lot of people make the mistake of only talking game and people pick up on that. And then that's when people are saying, well, they said this to me. You kind of got to get that trust going. And then once that trust is there, maybe try to get them to bring it up to you. Yeah. And let them give you the information. So you're just there kind of jiving with them, making conversation. And they're like, whoa, Chanel's cool.

Like, I'm down with this. and then all of a sudden they're getting you that in. Mix that in with some good performances in the challenges. Boom, boom. Okay, now there's some equity in this girl. Exactly. So you talked about Johnny and West. Talk to us about how you see their games being different,

even though they're both at high levels. And I did meet Johnny over the past weekend. I got this half from, if you live in Florida, go check out Rumble Boka. I had to, you know what I'm saying? He gave me some time, so I wanted to make sure I give him some shine. You know what I mean? Top 20 most interesting men in the world. Who me?

Yeah, it's always on the move. Like in Detroit, film, a podcast one day Thanksgiving, eating turkey, and then he's like Miami. Miami, Fort Lauderdale. I'm Boca Raton. I tried to make it. I made my trip worth it. Fam time first. Fam time first. Always. Then we got to business. So no, it was good. But talk to us about what's different about the way they approached the game. Johnny and Wes. It's interesting. So I went into the game knowing everyone's reputations. And obviously, before I went into the game, I got all these DMs on Instagram and Twitter, don't trust the vets. Get them out first. Did it not. Like, you know, you feel like a little bit

hyped up by the fans. So you're just like, all right, yeah, I'm going to get the, I'm going to get the vets out. Yeah, exactly. And then also, y'all are good. Like, that's the, yeah. Like, good. Like, I mean. Like gym class hero good. Yeah. It's absolutely like masterful. Were you actually like, were you actually like surprised like to see like, like, like the level of athleticism and then just smarts in the game. Yes. Blown away. Blown away.

The level of just like strategy when you see Johnny and Wes and those are the two that I was paying attention to analyze a challenge and be like this is what you have to do. This is how you break it down. It happens instantaneously. And it is so impressive to watch in person because I'm like, yo, I would have never thought about that. Yeah. Smart people to watch 20 years plus for both of those guys.

I mean, those are the goats. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I would say the interesting thing that I appreciated about, like, Wes's game, which is he taught me something, which was like how important it is to be able to pivot because I went in there, guns blazing, like, I'm about to get these vets out. I'm not playing with none of them. And I think you see the one deliberation where I'm like going at it with Josh. And I was kind of like in that fight by myself. And I had to think like, man, this is a really short-sighted game.

to be very much targeting the vets with no underlying relationships. It's just like that's, it's just bad gameplay, you know? And through my conversations with Wes, because I was really targeting him at first, I was able to build a really strong alliance with him, which was really great that, you know, not a lot of people knew about. But I think that it protected me, you know, a little bit later in the game. Yeah. For sure.

Almost like you went in and instantly you burned a couple bridges and you're like, wait a second. Yeah. I'm going to rebuild a few of these. because it's not necessarily your main alliances that get you further in the game. It's like this little side deal. It's like, okay, like I may not be playing the game step per step with Wes, but we have a mutual understanding here. Yeah.

You know, so if he wins, I know that we're close enough that I'm not going to be his first target. Whereas if you would have kept those walls up, now you're all the vets first choice. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then what Johnny was more unspoken. Like I liked him. He started off on the Red team, which was really great. for me. But with him, I didn't have to check him with him every week. It wasn't like we're going to have a strategy session. Who are you thinking? All of that stuff. It was just more so like,

I know that I'm not going to touch him. He's not going to touch me. We're good. Yeah. Yeah. When you have that type of relationship, it seems like you know you're really only going to be the vote if you're like the obvious choice where like, hey, they're friends with A, B, and C, that are obvious. Then it's me. Okay. At least I'd rather be there than, you know, at the bottom of it. And also, I thought it was really interesting to hear that behind the scene stuff about you and West because I was critical of West. I was saying the West that I know is making deals right now with the younger and the newer people.

And he's like to me, bro, you don't know what's happening. He's like, that is happening. He's pretty much guaranteed that it was happening. You know who else did a good job with that too? It was Corey. Yeah. Corey probably had a majority of his conversations off camera. Yeah.

Because you knew he was good with everyone. You saw a couple. They tried to highlight him from like the surveillance camera talking to I think either you or Desi in the kitchen, maybe both. Yeah. But yeah, you could tell he was doing that too. Yeah. Talk about your relationship with Corey and like how like rank.

How about this? Let's do this. Wes, Corey, bananas. And I know you want to do future challenges. How about this? Let's just say it got to a point in the game where you had to throw in West, Corey or bananas. Oh. Who would it?

Because that sometimes that happens. I don't know. Man, I don't know. Like honestly, I can't even answer that. Those are probably the hardest parts of the challenge. Yes. You have to choose between three people who you're good with and or have made deals with. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Like, I don't even know what I would have done. And the thing is, once we hit the halfway point of the game where we all got our black jerseys, I was like, my strategy was, I'm going to have my top four and my top four, my top four guys, my top four girls. And once one of them went home, so when I stepped into the top four spot. Oh, yeah, you had a roster. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, I didn't think that there would have to be a time where I would have to make that decision, which is great because honestly, I don't know who I would have chosen.

And I had very different, but equally as valuable relationships with all three of them. So you always basically, you had your people that you were never going to touch. Yeah. And then you had your scapegoat. Yeah. Which is a really good way to play it. And then you just basically had your bets, hopefully. But the best part about that is you can still know who your scapegoat is.

Yeah. And just butter them up and get a relationship with them. So they may not say your name, but you know you have to say theirs in a situation. Yeah. Yeah. So it's key. So talk to us about how, uh, no, you're good. So talk to us about how Chris went from being on the inside with the survivors to

like everyone hating him and wanting him to go home for five weeks in a row until the very last week. Yo, I'm going to be real. There was never a survivor alliance. Like there was never a survivor alliance. Be real. Pam. Like I think that that's like great TV. But like I didn't trust Cassidy. I didn't trust Chris. I didn't trust the fashion. I did trust Michelle. I did trust Michaela and Desi. But really, like, from the beginning, the blue team, which was Sebastian, Chris, and Cassidy, wildly protect it for so much of the first part of the game. Right. So while me and Michelle and Desi McKeele, we're scrambling, we're building relationships, we're making deals, we're putting all that working up front. I remember it would be like challenge days and we'd see Cassidy and Chris and Sebastian taking shots like, hey, let's turn off.

Let's get the hot tub. I'm like, baby, we have elimination in a couple hours. No. Right. You know? Or like everyone's partying at the club and I'm like, I'm not drinking. I might have to go in tomorrow. Right.

And so it's so interesting to see how the game evolved where you see the people who were the least protected in the beginning were the most protected in the end versus the people who were the most protected largely on the blue team in the beginning were going in over and over and over because I feel like they didn't have to have that equity up front that we did. Right. Yeah. That's the crazy part about is we used to have like one theme and ride that.

So imagine being on a show where, like, that was the theme where now you're scrambling the whole time. That's what the beauty of like the shakeup is. When you change like, okay, we're going to go from teams to individual. It does. It literally takes you from a very safe spot in the game to like. Yeah. You know. Anything can happen.

Yeah. It's so crazy. What you said that. And Mekkela and Desi, I think both said something similar, which is like you guys looked at each other and said like, no, like we made it to this point. having to, you know, scrap and make a deal or, and they're going to elimination for some of the girls every single week. And, you know, you've had this slide all the way to halfway. Now you're going to, now you're going to work for it. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, like, like, it's, yeah, like, I feel like I scrapped. The red team was awful. Like, unequivocally just bad. Yeah, it was. Yeah, like, it was. And the thing is, we had such good athletes. We just didn't have that synergy, you know?

And so like I feel like I was fighting for my life every single time. And the thing is, I see a lot of the discourse online, like Chanel kind of slid or whatever. Like, fam, I did not slide. I, like from a social standpoint, worked my ass off. I think we see a lot of me, Desi and Michaela kind of like playing together. And it's easy to see for us to kind of get for me specifically to get lost in the shadows or lost in translation. but like truly I was the person you have like the CEO of a company but then you have the chief of staff who's behind the scenes pulling putting everything together sewing it together I was like that person I was like I'm pulling this person this they're not going to touch you I promise you this you know and so like I really had to work behind the scenes in a way that's so nuanced that you can't always tell it on screen political players typically will get that rap yeah like or if you're you know they don't there's different types of work just because you're not doing it in front of the camera in the same doesn't mean you're not playing the game and putting in the work.

And social political players will get that rap more often than not. And I laugh because it's like the person that gets thrown in all the time always has the speech that's like, well, there's people here who haven't earned it. Like you're supposed to be like, oh yeah, sure, let me let me go put my stake in the game on the line because you don't know how to have conversations or how to read a room. Yeah. That's my fault. Everyone has a different path to the final.

I think I've done it twice where I didn't go into a single. elimination round and made it to the end. Beautiful. But that's not, right. Did I slide? Yeah, away from elimination rounds. But like there was a ton of work that went into that not going in. Yeah. You know. It's good gameplay. Yeah. It's a different style of game. And just because you're not seeing me drag someone through the sand doesn't mean I'm not putting in equal amounts of work. Yeah. I love that. Let me ask you this. Now, who from your era does that kind of remind you of a social player that played a great social game and good enough, you know, where they could kind of make happened without having to go in that often.

Well, Devin, she made it to two challenges, two finals. She went in her first one because it was a rookie season, and she won her elimination rounds. And then her second one, she made it to a certain point. And then all the girls were like, we're going to protect her because we want her in the final. That's still a social move. Like, sure, take me there because of whatever. But so I'm not going to beat you. Just bring me.

Trying to think other really good social players. Well, I'm trying to, like, there's. a lot of good social players, but like to have not gone into an elimination round. I mean, CT does it really well. Yeah. C. T does a really good job of, again, having conversations and not pushing but getting information and then using it.

Because what CET will actually do is get a bit of information and then he'll go start a fire and walk away. Yeah. He'll take that information, start a fire and walk away and then watch everything explode. So like that's more of like a maniacal way to do it. But I mean, that's like making it like Michelle does that. She's good social. There's a lot of good social players.

There's a bunch of good ones. Who would you say besides yourself? And first, actually, one more thing before I ask this question. After meeting with Kayla, love her. After meeting Desi, also love her. You're by far the one that could probably make more relationships. And I'll tell you that because both of them are to themselves. Yeah.

They really are. Amazing people, they take a second to like break through. Once you break through, they're like your best friend. Yeah. But like how hard is it to break? I feel like you do a better job of making the relationship off risk. Yeah. Yeah.

So it just makes it just makes perfect sense how the three of you together, once it was known that you're a group, would all balance each other out. Well, and I guess the thing I'm saying is to do it, you're a rookie, your first season of the challenge, to go into not go into an elimination round. So Kyle, actually. That is the perfect example because Kyle did his first season and was the same way. It was just social butterfly. Everybody loved him. He didn't go in because it didn't make sense. He won a couple right away.

so he was in a power seat and then everyone was like dude this guy's hilarious he's the man like we everyone just liked him so much that he made it all the way to a final that is a very yeah so you and kyle are the only people that i know that i can think of that have done that yeah and that's really impressive because most of the time when you're a rookie you take your licks and then you come back and people like okay like proved themselves now you can play that social game but you just came in right off the rip and you were like okay like let me do this yeah that's impressive you and kyle you know what's crazy about it too i remember when we first got like we all first got together as a cast. I thought of myself as an extrovert, but when I got around the vets, I said, yo, no way. Like, I'm an introvert. Like, I don't know what I thought I was. They can turn it on. Y'all are like next level. Like, it's crazy.

Well, again, I attribute that to the fact that you've done two seasons of Survivor, right? Just one. Just one. So you did one season of Survivor and then you did one season in the challenge. Yeah. Okay, I've done altogether the real world, chance for stars. And I think I did 11 challenges. So that's 13 different television shows.

Yeah, true. So when I first started doing it, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like you just, it's almost like you get smacked in the face with energy. Yes. Social energy. Yes. And then my first time, I remember after like three weeks, I was like, I can't hang. I'm like, I need to just go in a dark room for a week.

But then you kind of get like, it's like getting in shape for it. Yeah. And then you just know, like all those vets, no, lights, camera action basically. Yes. Yes. And that's the thing. You're right. It's a lot. It's like almost like on like matchable social energy.

100%. Like I remember sitting down with Corey, we're just chilling, talking, whatever. As soon as the camera comes in, so Chanel, tell me about your why. I was like, oh yeah. You really turn it on. And I guarantee you there was a producer behind the camera person around the corner who looked at Corey and was like, I guarantee it. Because like here's the thing. If a camera walks in a room, the producers hate it. you just stop talking. Yeah.

Like if they walk into a room, they appreciate it when you're like, okay, I'm here to do a job. Camry's here. Maybe he didn't want to talk about games. So he was like, let's at least get a meaningful conversation. And then boom, they leave. Then Corey probably snapped right back into like, chilling. Yeah.

That's, you're right. That hits it on the head because while it is, nothing's scripted, you know as a vet when the cameras come around, you're like, okay, I got to give them. They're in here for a reason. So if I just keep talking about like my favorite donut in New York City, like, the producer's going to be like what the fuck yeah so there's been times where like they've walked in and i look at it like if i'm close with them i look at them like come on i'm just trying to chill and then i snap up give them like this conversation but whatever that you know and then they leave and i'm like

yeah yeah you do yeah you're right like you don't like we know that because it's like it's almost like you do it 13 14 27 times you learn how to produce a show oh yeah right versus me i'm just like we were just talking about pizza like you want me to you know And now I got to tell you why I'm here. Yeah. So, but it's, it's honestly, playing with bets is literally just like a masterclass. Like it really is. I know.

Truly incredible. So if I ever do play again, I have so much more that I understand about how it works and, you know, how you have to be, which, you know, is just going to, you know, take with you. And what a season to make a final end because you had, you, you had the opportunity to compete against some of the great, you know, men and women in your, you know, your, your era. You know, you had Tori on this challenge. You had a bananas. You had a Wes.

That's a big deal. So, because you guys, you, Michaela and Desi, like, in that first part of that final, the physical, the physicality, like, let's see who can handle lactic acid. You guys destroyed Tori. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's crazy. Like these, I said to Michaela and I said to him, these survivor girls are a problem on the challenge. Because that, and then when we talked to Desi, she was like, they made it look like you. was really close, but it really wasn't. And she's a physical phenomenon.

She's a beast. She's a beast. So for me to see that and just understand athletics in the show and be like, damn, that's huge. But I would have really liked to seem like, you know what? Like, let's do this. Give me you three and maybe a couple of just absolute savages from the first USA. And then literally let's do like the five best girls from CBS and then add like Kara,

Laurel and maybe like one or two more and do the same thing on each side because I honestly I think the guys might be a little bit but I don't think the girls would be I think you guys would physically give a lot of them around because that was impressive. Thank you. Yeah, I mean listen

shout out story. She's a beast. She performed so well throughout the dailies again like seeing vets at work was like damn. But you know what it is? I think with Survivor you're so used to like performing on zero nothing. like starvation that like when it's time to turn it on, you just turn it on, you know? Like when you're doing Survivor, you're like, I'm too tired and hungry to get butterflies

or be nervous about this. Yeah. I'm the challenge. You're like, holy crap. I have a stomach full of food and I could have had pre-workout with. Yeah. Dusty. Yeah.

Lit as fuck. Yeah. Like you're like, like you, I think you said in the first episode, you were like, wait a second, like, I got a bed. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, yeah.

And that makes total sense. You guys are so used to doing everything while suffering where it's like the final is whatever. Yeah. It's like in Survivor, you are playing with your life on the line every single time. But in the challenge, you have a chance to play. Like, again, right? If you get voted in, you get to fight for your life. Right.

You don't get that luxury on Survivor. And so we just learn to scrap to play to do all that stuff from the beginning. So, yeah, I mean, it definitely was a hard final. It was a stacked final. But, like, it was anyone's game. Like, going into the final, I was. I was like, y'all are all smart, y'all are all strong. Y'all are all, like, very, very good.

You guys have all proven that. I was the only one who hadn't won a daily, like an individual one leading into the final. And so, you know, I think that it was like, maybe, maybe I was slightly underestimated, but I think everyone was just like a very, very, very, like, big threat in their own rights. Well, I don't think you were because every single person that had come in here had said, like, even though you hadn't one of the individual dailies, they were like, every single person was like, like, she, like, she, was top girl on every single challenge. And there's something to be said about like people who will get first and then a last

and then a first, then middle of the road and then last. And there's also if you get second and third and second and fourth and you're just always in that top tier like people notice that. Yeah. Like oh, you didn't win any of them, but you also didn't finish worse than fifth in any challenge. Yeah. That's a pretty big. That's a big deal.

Yeah. Right. And I can't believe I didn't start the show reminding everybody about the beautiful rebounder. And you almost like that was probably one of my favorite one. liners in the whole season. A round of a pause for the beautiful rebounder, please. Stunning, gorgeous. Every adjective first, all that.

Yeah, smart, whatever. But I just did send him the beautiful because that was your word. But everything above Ruby rebounder, you almost had that one. I think if you got in your nerves a little bit or else you would have had it. Yo, I'm going to be honest with you. That concludes the free preview of the Zach Nichols podcast. So go to Patreon and subscribe to see the rest of the shit that we talk. Go do it.

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