THEMOVE - Are Long Time Trials in Grand Tours Becoming a Thing of the Past? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin go through the recently unveiled 2025 Giro d'Italia route, including the lack of time individual time trials and potential overall contenders, and discuss the trend of teams releasing their Tour de France startlists before the season begins, before getting into a few listener-submitted questions.   Where & How to Watch Cycling in 2025   Zwift: Zwift just released Zwift Ride, an all-new smart bike that is changing the indoor game and making it easier and more affordable than ever before at only $1,299.99 to get started riding indoors. https://www.zwift.com/events/tag/wedu And join WEDU for our rides on Zwift. WEDU Wednesday is our casual, no drop ride and SUFFER Sunday for those wanting to push the limits. https://www.zwift.com/events/tag/wedu OneSkin: OneSkin is the world's first skin longevity company, keeping your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Get started today with 15% off using code THEMOVE at https://oneskin.co Buycycle: Unlock 30% off the Seller Protection at buycycle. Follow the link: https://buycycle.com/en-us/wedu?&utm_source=organic&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=wedu20251&utm_country=US

But I think it's not a guarantee if you go full, full, full for the Giro, especially if you're not a champion, like a super champion like Pogacar, that you're going to be 100% in the Tour de France. So we'll see. We'll see how that works out. I'm not a big fan. I'm not a fan of having somebody go full for the Giro and then count on him as being the last guy to be with the leader in the tour. It often doesn't work out.

Everybody, welcome back to The Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernil for our weekly show where we go through the top news items in pro cycling as well as answer questions from listeners. Email us at info at we do dot team and we will pick the ones that we can and answer them on the next week's show but johan before we get into today's episode we want to talk about a few sponsors do you want to introduce the first one yes thank you to our presenting sponsor zwiftift. We talk about it every week, and especially now during these days, the winter days.

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probably a little bit more fun, lower barrier to entry entry. I would highly recommend it. Today's episode is also brought to you by one skin. Now I'm not overly concerned with aesthetics, but I do want to keep my skin healthy, mainly just to keep pace, especially with fighting dry skin, which is a big deal because I live in Colorado. The dry air will really dry you out and deep wrinkles, or at least keep those wrinkles from getting too deep. One Skin's skin cream is powered by the OS1 peptide, which is scientifically proven to decrease lines and wrinkles, boost hydration, and help with the thinning skin that often comes with age. Don't take my word for it. They've got over 4,000 five-star reviews for their full line of face,

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But you were devastated when it came out because it only has 42 kilometers of time trialing. This is the zero. Oddly, you think of it as being the Grand Tour that's all about the mountains and all about climbing. And it does produce climber winners quite often. But it's the Grand Tour that's had the most individual time trial kilometers on average over the last few years. So a little shocking to see it that low also i mean i don't i don't know how it compares to the other uh but i think they're still uh they have more time trial kilometers in the tour and there was 44 of 44 okay okay well you know it's now in the world no now the total of the total, the total of the three grand tours, the time trial kilometers is what in the eighties and nineties was the, the, the time trial kilometers, uh, of one tour. I remember I did my first tour in 1990. Uh, and I do remember we had a team time trial of, I don't remember 30 something kilometers. And then, uh, we had a time trial of 70 something

kilometers and one of close to 60 kilometers, um, which, um, which was, yeah, I mean, you know, 150 kilometers total time trial. Um, so, uh, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's a tendency, you know, less time trial kilometers. You know, I don't think it changes much. The best GC riders are also the best time trialists. So, and in between, amongst themselves, they don't lose that much time. If we look back to, for example, the last Tour de France, we saw the difference between uh in the first time trial flat time trial between jonas and today

was 15 seconds in the first time trial so um the last time trial was more of a climbing time trial and that's of course the physical fitness that's uh a priority over over time trial skills but uh um i was i mean luckily i mean luckily uh fortunately that the tour the tour of italy starts in albania as as uh as announced i think for the tour of italy uh that was um make it or break it in my opinion because there must be a lot of a lot of money involved bringing the tour to albania i don't i don't exactly that was actually also the reason why it was delayed because there must have been some some problems uh and finally uh they came to a an agreement or a new agreement i don't know um i mean logistically it's not that bad because albania is close to italy uh but still you know it's uh it's strange to see these these ground tours go to these places i mean it's the second time in the

last four or five years because a few years ago they went they started in hungary yeah well then yeah hungary and then i feel like the foreign start is becoming more and more common in professional cycling. I mean, the reason this is, we should say, is money. They got paid allegedly 7 million euros to have three stages in Hungary, paid, I guess, by the Hungarian government. Pretty good deal for the Giro. I mean, it is a little funny when they do it over and over and over again, like with the Vuelta starting in Torino. It's like, I feel like we were just in Torino for both the Giro and the tour. Like what is all kind of melts together in your mind. But I, someone explained it to me like locally, at least for insiders are quite positive.

They're quite, there's support for them because if you think about going to these towns in France and demanding, I don't know, $600,000 for a stage finish. You can only harvest your own town so much. So this is like crop rotation. Like you go abroad and get a bunch of money to supplement the race back at home, which is the theory behind them. It also gives you oddly a third rest day, which I'm surprised they're doing. They start the race on a Friday. The Monday is a rest day.

So it elongates the race slightly but then gives it an extra rest day which adds like an odd rhythm to them i'm also surprised johan these are not like nothing stages in hungary usually like if you remember the israel foreign start it was like nothing really happened gc wise except the the Christian crash and the time trial. But it's a hilly stage to start. Pretty hard time trial, stage two. A hilly stage on stage three. First sprint stage is not until stage four back in Italy. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that extra rest day is usually because of logistics, you know, because you have to move the whole caravan and especially for the staff and all the cars, the buses, the trucks. That's why they impose an extra rest day. But it's not a rest day, it's a travel day. So you don't rest much. Yeah, I assume they have to ship everything. I don't really know how they're going to do that. Put everything on a ferry or drive it up through the Balkans?

That seems difficult. it also goes to we should say it goes to slovenia on stage 14 unfortunately not like good rate there's like would be fantastic stages you could do in slovenia they're not doing that they're just kind of popping over the border but one of the big contenders i'd assume for the zero and as you say the time trial kilometers it's a bit of a nothing burger most of the time because like i'm even just looking at stage seven of the tour last year which was one of the more traditional time trials you could have rimco's flying wins he's 12 seconds up on pagachar and then yonas who had a bad day is 37 seconds back but rimco just you know he's going to

surrender that time anyway on the climbs like they're all equally good almost in the time trials. And then just however they are on the climbs is how they are in the time trials with Remco having a slight advantage. So even if you had a hundred Ks of time trial, it probably would matter. But in this Giro, I'd assume the big favorite will be Primoz Roglic. And then Visma Elisabike is going to come with Simon Yates. If there was a bunch of time trials, Simon Yates would be penalized. I have to assume. I mean, it is, you get a funny thing where these climbers are getting better and

better at limiting their losses in the time trials. It depends, Spencer. Let's not forget Simon Yates when, well, actually when the Giro, when the Giro started in Hungary, Simon Yates won the time trial. I remember. I think that was our, like one of our first episodes of outcomes. Yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah, Primoz is obviously the favorite, uh, Simon Yates for Visma, um, and also, uh, Adam Yates for UAE. So the, both of the So both of the Yates brothers

raised the Giro as a personal goal and then have committed to being a super domestique in the Tour de France. I still think it's a bit risky. I mean, having in mind the importance of the Tour, I would personally prefer to have my tour de france team uh as fresh as possible i've seen many times that guys of course they need to also manage the the ambitions of these guys and it's only logical that they also want results

right writers like yates and uh and um i, they're both Yates brothers. Ayuso is also one of the guys who goes to the Giro. But I think it's not a guarantee if you go full, full, full for the Giro, especially if you're not a champion, like a super champion like Pogacar,

that you're going to be 100% in the Tour de France. So we'll see. We'll see how that works out. I'm not a big fan. I'm not a fan of having somebody go full for the Giro and then count on him as being the last guy to be with the leader in the Tour. It often doesn't work out.

Yeah. I guess the counterpoint would be, is it an insurance policy? Because I assume both Wiesma and UAE will not win the Tour de France. One of those teams will lose the Tour. So you need to win a Grand Tour. If you're a team of that level, you can't just punt one. I mean, Visma essentially punted the Giro last year. It would probably feel a lot better if they had a Giro win under their belt heading into the Tour.

Yeah. Or is Primoz just going to destroy them all and, like, why even try? Well, I mean, listen, Primoz is, you know, he's shown that, yeah, except the Tour de France, I mean, the Giro and the Vuelta, he's pretty damn good. Yeah. And he has a strong team, too. But, no, I mean, you're right.

I mean, they need to make sure that, especially Wismar needs to make sure that they can't gamble everything on the tour. Although I fear that that's the only way to beat Tadej, is to put everything on the tour and make sure that you have your strongest team and that you have your, your strongest team and that, uh, you know, your, your, your full gas for, I mean, with Simon Yates going full for the Giro, I think it's a bit of a risk.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're, you're definitely not wrong. I mean, I, I'm having a hard time remembering who it was, but I feel like we saw this last year with teams that tried to straddle this. And then they had a rider slightly out of form at the tour they i mean it is notable that mateo jorgensen not going to the zero going same thing with is sep kuz going to the zero no so i mean that's those that's the powder they're keeping dry for the tour and mateo it sounds like if you listen to his interviews or like in the early part of this year and in this guy, he does not like say stuff just to say it sounds like he's pretty serious about his grand tour ambitions going forward. So I'd imagine that he might even be like the guy that they're counting on to offer the most support to Vindigo in the mountains. Well, I mean, you know, he was there last year.

He was, you know, I think the last week, he was probably in the five strongest riders of the whole Tour de France. So I would assume that with some more experience, some more ambition, now being completely used to his new team, he will still improve. So, yeah, I mean, normally, you know, Wismar is going to have a great team for the Tour de France. I'm a bit surprised, you know, that, I mean, changing topics, moving away from the Giro. I'm a bit surprised that Wismar, for example, as a team,

they have already announced their eight riders for the tour firmly. And other teams are doing that too. And I find it a bit strange because so much can happen between now and the Tour de France. And

the fact that Wisma has announced their eight riders and I looked over the list. I mean, of course, they have a super strong team. But one thing came to mind is that Dylan Bambarla is not selected for the Tour de France on Wismar Lise's bike. I honestly have serious problems to understand that because Bambarla is a guy you can count on. He has shown

the power he has for a team, the experience he has, the way he can sacrifice his own chances in favor of the team. I've seen him do things in the Tour de France when Jonas won the Tour. He said, wow.

When he was riding, it was 25 riders left um you could use him for the flat stages um they reportedly have replaced him with uh victor campanards who's new to the team um i i don't think i don't think campanards is of the level of Van Barle as a, as a cyclist. He's a good rider, but he's not the quality of Van Barle, not even close.

And so I, you know, I'm a bit surprised that so early on that you could have an idea, but what I would do is I would say, okay, these are the 12 or 14 riders that are candidates for the Tour de France. And we'll make a decision as the season progresses, you know. Because now what they do is they already say to Van Baarle, okay, you're not going to the Tour.

He has to be disappointed. You know, then if something happens and they have to call him up later, it's going to take a mental switch for him to get ready. I mean, he's probably a professional. He's probably going to get ready. But I find it too early to say, these are my aid riders for the tour. And hey, by the way, you, Van Barlet, you're not going. The explanation also is that a guy like Kampenaerts, for example,

he has the same frame size as Jonas. Obviously, Van Barlet is not. We've seen in last year's tour that Trotnik was there on the gravel stage and basically saved the situation for Jonas because he could use his bike. But then I've looked

and I said, Jonas is 175, Campenaerts is 173 and Simon Yates is 172 Simon Yates is going to be around Jonas all the time when the car cannot get there

Simon Yates is going to be there I think that's I'm surprised I'm surprised that you know Kampenaerts has not shown yet not proven yet that he can be I'm surprised. I'm surprised that, you know, Kampenarts has not shown yet, not proven yet,

that he can be of the value of a Van Barle in a team that has a leader and a candidate to the France winner like Jonas Winkler. You know, he's been on Lotto. He's done a great job. He's won the stage. But being in Lotto and being, uh, you know, I, I listened to an interview of, of, of Campanards, you know, and he's always funny in his interviews

and he said, yeah, you know, they've asked me, um, you know, to, to set the tempo, uh, on the, on the medium mountain stages, you know, it's me pulling, it's, it's the whole team behind me and the peloton single file behind uh and and jonas is going to be in third or fourth position and i'll be there with jonas unless it's steeper than 10 and i thought by myself dude what have you been smoking okay you're a good rider but you're not you're not that good you know so unless they know something i don't know but i think it's i think it's a risk i think it's a risk i just don't understand it i could let's say it's a week before the tour and you make the decision like

camping arts is flying dylan's struggling camping arts i also wonder if there's some harebrained not harebrained but just complex theory at visma like uh victor can be on the front jonas is behind him the profile of both of them are so low that jonas can draft off victor but no one can draft off jonas and we're punishing everybody maybe that's a consideration but still that's that that's very far fetched. Let's just assume that's true. Even if so, I don't know why any of these teams released their, their tour teams. Now, why not just say there's a 14 rider pool? That's the main thing. That's the main, the main doubt I have.

So early you can say to those guys, okay, this is your program. You're you're, you know. You're on the tour team. But things, I mean, something's going to happen. I mean, one of those, one or two of those eight guys they have announced now will not be at the Tour de France. They will not be there because they're going to have an injury. They're going to be a crash. They're going to be sick, whatever. And they're going to have to call up some of those guys who have said,

they've said already, okay, you're not going to the tour, which then, you know, as I said, they're pros and a guy like Van Barle will be, will be ready. But man, on my team, Van Barle is always on the Tour de France team. Always. You cannot not select Van Barle. Did you tell George that he like didn't have George was like, I'm going to be on the team, right? And you're like, I don't know, George, we'll see how you perform. Not even, not even George.

It's never been, it's never been in question. You know, there were, there were a few guys, I mean, anyway, things have changed, you know, but they're just, there were just some guys that you knew, uh, that they were going to be ready. They had the experience. They knew how the train works, how the machine works in the race. They didn't need much direction or instructions. Like Eki, for example.

Eki, George, Padernos, Ceciu Rubiera, Acevedo. These guys were machines, you know. But anyways, I always tried to have at least 12 and back then it was still nine riders. 12 riders

before the season, I said, okay, you are a candidate for the Tour de France team. Yeah. I don't get why people do that. I'm thinking about dylan van barra i'm looking at his results i remember i thought when he was on team sky in eos before wow then art really came to the road i thought he was the most valuable domestique in the sport because he could work in the mountains work on the flats outside of that he's had very good

personal results i think it was the 20 remember the leuven world championships on the road almost wins the thing um i forgot he won the dutch national championships in 2023 won omloop had a bad year last year is it possible he's one body to bear he was second in the tour of flanders yeah yeah was that that was in the same year right 2022 and is it possible vismas just lost confidence in him i don't know i think he had a few uh accidents but he uh he so i don't know i mean there's probably something we don't know right um i think his contract ends also at the end of this year. So I don't know if that's in the game. If they want to renew him or if he doesn't want to renew, I would think that he wants to renew because his partner

just came to Wismar, Pauline Ferrand-Prevot. So I think he wants to stay there too. But anyways, it's just a guessing game. I would not have said to Vom Barla, you know, going to the Tour. That's my main point. Yeah, I'm looking at this year, last year. Reading between the results lines, it almost looks like he crashed out of every stage race he started,

except Torino-Adriatico. Yeah, I don't get it, but I guess this is the new times we're living in. Like what's the, what is the positive of that? But yeah, back to the, back to the Giro before we move on from that, Wout van Aert starting the Giro, I guess this, this is also another, you know, question mark of like, well, I guess you hope he's fine and then he's good for the tour because he's going to be important for the tour but a star like van art you have to let

him race for himself i assume he's going for stage wins and the points jersey you told me this before that we recorded i was kind of shocked mads pettersen going to the zero not going to the tour trying to win the points jersey at the zero and the vuelta jonathan milan going to the tour for little trek i mean i kind of see the i understand that i understand that and also i think uh i mean peterson uh would probably also i mean you know he's done the tour uh it will be the first time since 2019 that he's not doing the Tour de France next year. I mean, it's probably also,

I mean, this is not like just a team decision. I think it's, you know, in conversation with Pedersen and with Milan. Pedersen has said that he wants to do the Giro and the Vuelta and go two times for the point jersey, which, you know, I think it's

good because the Giro and the Vuelta and go two times for the points jersey which I think is it's good because the Giro you can do the Giro just after the classics and then since this year the world championships are too hard for Mads Pedersen

he'll skip the tour and then do the Vuelta so yeah I mean I like the fact that Milan goes to the tour because he's super fast he's very strong you know let's not forget you know he's not just a sprinter he broke the world record in the four-kilometer pursuit. And he's world champion. So, you know, he's a super strong rider. I mean, he must be near 90 kilos and he climbs really well,

which tells you he is putting out a lot of power. I'm even just looking at the Giro last year. He had one, two, three, four second places and three stages no three in addition to three stage wins and he probably could have converted more um which is he's so raw and he's getting better it feels like every race i'm very curious to see what he looks like at the tour i think that's a good decision i heard rumors matthew vanderpoel might get an offer to come race we know that the Giro is they are not shy to pay riders to start

Walt was supposed to start last year of course he crashed he couldn't race so obviously his participation is a continuation of probably the agreement they had last year and but for Walt is a continuation of probably the agreement they had last year. And for Walt, it kind of, you know,

I think it fits into his program, you know. Plus, he didn't race that much in 2024 and ended his season really early. So, yeah. I mean, and then I think for Van Aert, it's you know, if you look at the course of the Giro

it's really the last week and the first 10 days at least even the first two weeks there's not that many mountain stages so I think Van Aert will be I think he will be in pink for

a number of days. Um he could be he could be one of the one of the most important riders during the first two weeks of the Giro. Yeah, I agree. I'm very curious to see how he does there. I hope he stays safe. Yeah. And that he's not compromised for the tour. I mean, yeah, I'm it's a big season for walt venn art he's got a lot a lot riding on his spring and then if he could rack up a bunch of stage ones at the zero that'd be really interesting but he's already he's already in

good shape you know we've seen in the cyclocross races that uh that he's really doing well uh he's uh he's been really selective in the amount of races I think he only does 5 races and so it's everything focused on the spring of course which is super important and then later on 0-2 or so I'm rooting for him he deserves

a good result, he deserves a big win because he has it in him and he had so much bad luck already that I'm really rooting for him. Today's episode is also brought to you by Bicycle, the largest global marketplace for pre-owned bikes. That's B-U-Y-C-Y-C-L-E dot com. Bicycle with over 20,000 pre-owned road, gravel, mountain, and triathlon bikes available on the platform, Bicycle connects buyers and sellers on a global scale,

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That's WEDO30 to unlock 30% off the seller protection fee when you sell a bike on bicycle, that's we do 30 to unlock 30% off the seller protection fee. When you sell a bike on a bicycle.com, check out the link in the show notes for more info. All right, let's get back to the episode. Do we want to talk about Tadej Pogacar, Jonas Fendigo, not racing the Giro? I would be shocked if Tadej if daddy pagacho shows up and defends his zero title it doesn't seem like that's going to fit into his schedule but both him and jonas i'm surprised this has happened have announced they're going to do the tour de france and the vuelta españa yeah that this is if let's let's imagine that this happens that they both have

clean seasons they get through they're not injuredumably one of those will win the tour, which feels really hard to do. Like you just win the tour. And then Chris Froome's one of the only riders I've ever seen do this. Like I just won the tour. I'm going to go race the Volta. Mentally, got to be pretty tough,

but this could be like one of the best Voltas in modern history. If both those guys are going against each other. And presumably a Primoz Roglic there trying to win, break the record for most overall wins. No, no, presumably a Primoz Roglic there trying to win, break the record for most overall wins. No, no, no. Primoz is doing the Giro and the Tour.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of interesting. Wait, didn't he say that he's not doing any race? Yeah, but his team wants him to do the Tour. Yeah, I guess when you're the highest paid rider on the team, you kind of have to go to the Tour. But yeah, it will be really interesting if they're both there. It does make it, you start to wonder about someone like Matteo Jorgensen. Like I just heard a prediction from a pro rider of like, Matteo will podium at a Grand Tour this year. And like, it's something that sounds correct, but if he's not doing the Giro, that means he's going to have the podium

behind Jonas and today at either the Tour or the Vuelta. Like, it really starts to squeeze the opportunity, not just Matteo, but other riders of that level. It really starts to squeeze their opportunities for Grand Tour results. Yeah. Well, I think at this point, Spencer,

you know, they both said they're doing the Vuelta I think at this point, Spencer, you know, they both said they're doing, they're doing the Vuelta or they're thinking about it, but it, you know what? I mean, it really depends on how the season goes. The Vuelta is,

is so far away that, uh, you can have it on your, I mean, you can say, okay, I'm focusing on the Vuelta and that's my main goal. And then you can say,

okay, you're, this guy is going to the Vuelta and that's my main goal. And then you can say, okay, this guy is going to the Vuelta. But usually after the tour, they decide whether they go to the Vuelta and whether they can mentally motivate themselves again to go to the Vuelta. So I think it's a bit early. They've both said that they want to do both of those races. I think Pogacar wants to win the Vuelta as soon as he can to have all three. it's a bit early uh they've both said that they want to do both both of those races i think

i think pogacar wants to win the vuelta as soon as he can to have all three um but uh but the the focus is the tour de france as always and then after that the teams and the riders they see what they have left both physically and mentally yeah I mean, it's like so ridiculous even. I'm hesitant to even talk about start list at this point in the year, especially with the Vuelta. Because every year it just turns into like, well, who had a disappointing season? Who crashed and is now healthy? Like it really is a dynamic situation.

It's hard just to sit around and try to guess who is going to be at what race but before we get into questions do you want to talk about eneos real quick we've been talking about them a lot the last few weeks months but something that caught my eye i was just reading a a business publication and it was talking about jim ratcliffe the owner of eneos the business and then also the owner of the individual Ineos sports properties in their portfolio. So like Manchester United, the Nice football team, part owner of the Mercedes F1 team, owner of the Ineos cycling team. So Ratcliffe put up a lot of money to buy Manchester United. His stake, it's a publicly traded stock so you can like track what it's

worth all the time it's worth 812 million less than what he bought it for last year and that's in addition to like the the money he has to spend on a daily rate to keep the club running because I I think they probably technically run at a probably at a profit but he's putting a lot of money into the team to like overhaul facilities, but he's putting a lot of money into the team to like overhaul facilities. They're also laying off a lot of people, like trying to get the finances right there. So that's, that's what I read. And then I go over to cycling news. I read, Oh, any of us, the cycling team is looking for a secondary sponsor to help with funding. I mean, this is something that we would have never been able to imagine, you know, even three,

four years ago, like they were the team, nothing but money. They never had to have sponsors. They had the cleanest jerseys in the Peloton because they were owned by Sky, the company, then by Jim Ratcliffe, who was a very wealthy individual. But when people like that start to feel the burn in their businesses and then their other sports portfolios, and they're trying to figure out which sports property do I put most of my money into? I'm a little concerned about the cycling team, Johan, after this news. Yeah, me too. Me too.

It just indicates that, you know, what we've been saying, you know, I think that the real big motivation of the guy who's funding the team is not there. I'm foreseeing a different scenario because finding a second sponsor at that level, if it's true that they've been putting in 50 million, it's probably reduced a little bit now, but it's still going to be close to 40 million.

If you want a second sponsor, that means it's going to be 15 or 20 million to be back to being a super team. Now, if there's a sponsor of 15 to 20 million, you can be a title sponsor of almost any other team.

What do you think Little's paying? You know, I mean, little, little is paying a lot of money. 20 million, you think? Probably or more. But they're better. This is the kicker. They're better than Ineos. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. You know, it's like, if, if a company has that kind of budget available, then, and you want to go into cycling, you're going to look at other options. And you're going to have a lot, a lot of people who want to be associated with you.

So, you know, finding a second sponsor for Ineos is not going to be easy. Assuming that Ineos wants to stay the main sponsor and the main the main name it's also i guess it's possible too that you could imagine them stripping it down to the studs so let's say it was yeah it might have been more than 50 million at its peak but once you get like get bernal's contract off the books get garrett thomas off the books tom pickock's gone like basically there was always stories where it'd be like half the tour team makes more than a million euros a year or a million pounds a year which at the time was a lot a lot of money but you could like you could probably get rid of almost every expensive

contract they have like ultra expensive and not lose that much. But you're going to have to have riders who win races. I mean, do they currently? No, they don't. They don't. But honestly, I, I see, I, I see a different scenario, Spencer. I think what they're going to try to do is keep the team running and try to sell it to some to someone else yeah i mean honestly xds would have been the perfect buyer i mean i think the chinese guys

they made the wrong choice yeah they're not going to be in the world tour for the next three years no uh and then it's still to be seen if after these three years you know and then every year astana or xds astana will need to be the top two of the of the second the second division to to have the the rights to participate that's that's not guaranteed either the first year is guaranteed but the second year it's not. And then to get back into the World Tour, they're going to have to make some serious investments. So I think they chose the wrong team.

But when I'm saying this, I'm not a neutral party. But I'm just still going to say they chose the wrong team. I don't know if many people like even neutral parties, like pull someone, Hey, would you rather own Astana or Ineos? They probably would pick the Ineos outfit to purchase. It really, I, yeah, I, I think they'll, I mean, this there's complications in reality, but if they just leaned into like, we're going to be the British team, let's get the top, let's get Stevie Williams.

Let's get Oscar Onley. Let's get Ethan Hader. Like that would be a pretty good team. And those guys aren't huge money writers, but yeah, I don't know. I think they've just had a lot of mission drift in the last few years. Like you start, you want to win the biggest races. So you sign expensive writers who can compete with the best riders. And then you kind of, they feel like they've just drifted away from their identity a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So let's get into a few questions before we go again,

info at we do.team. If you want yours read, this one is from Paul Nichols and apologies, Paul, I'm going to paraphrase your question but johan paul is asking if he remembers you back in the day drinking fanta after tour stages i also remember seeing this and he is asking what was the deal with that i don't recall fanta being a sponsor was fanta the go-to drink back then or is my memory skewed and to add a question on top of this question, if you guys were drinking Fanta back then, what, what is this, this red drink everyone is drinking now after the races? Yeah. Um, Fanta, uh, I can't really remember. It was the go-to drink. I would just assume it's a soft drink that just, you know, the guys just probably enters better than coke uh you want something sugary

straight after the race or back then at least you know there wasn't much science behind it other than something fresh and something sugary and some guys seem to like fanta better than than coke um but i i can't really remember if that was the go-to drink um so so i i can't answer that um what they're drinking now uh the red drink the red mixture whatever it is um i've been told it's um it's cherry juice it's cherry extract uh some call it it tart cherry or cherry tart or whatever. Apparently, it has antioxidant properties. And in the recovery process, straight after the effort, it seems to be very beneficial. So that's all I know.

Back in the days, we've never used that. It was not, it was not there yet, but now it seems that that's the go-to drink straight after the finish together with ketones, by the way. Um, ketones, almost every, every rider straight after the efforts at the finish, they, they have a, they have a show of ketones. Ketone IQ. Look in the show notes. No, yeah, I did notice that. Like you see people chugging this cherry juice and then ketones. Interesting story about Fanta. I don't know if people know the history of this. I didn't until I was recently in Berlin during World War II, Coca-Cola could not import the ingredients from the U S cause there was a trade embargo. Um, so what Coca-Cola Deutschland did is they just picked, they called it the leftovers import the ingredients from the U S cause there was a trade embargo.

So what Coca-Cola Deutschland did is they just picked, they called it the leftovers of the leftovers, just like anything they could find and they brewed it into a drink and it was Fanta. So that's how Coca-Cola Germany was making Coca-Cola during world war two. And after the war became a very profitable, popular drink for the Coca-Cola corporation. Next question is from me, Johan. I feel like every conversation I've had in the last week is with someone about mathematical simulations and artificial intelligence in cycling.

For example, Kristen Faulkner, before she had a meeting with USA Cycling, before the Olympics. They didn't want her to do the road race. They just wanted her to do the individual pursuit. They said, our simulations show you only have a 6% chance of meddling in the road race. So we don't think it's worth it to send you. That didn't work out very well. Yeah, I want to look at that model. Let's see what that looks like. They also asked her, well, how are you going to win?

It's like, well, I'm the strongest rider in the world. So I'm going to go real fast at the end i saw that interview and that was actually quite amazing how she how she told the story that you know she needed to be there in a group and then go and then go away at the end and that's exactly what she did i mean that it that uh artificial artificial intelligence program i don't know what they were using at USA Cycling, but I don't think it worked very well. I thought it was so strange they would set a rider down, like one of the most talented riders in the sport,

and just interrogate her about how she's going to win the Olympics. It's like, well, it's pretty good. Luckily, they listened to her and not to the program. I know, but then I heard that UAE has some sort of model and that's what's contributed to pagacha doing all these long range attacks like do you know anything about these and i don't i don't i do i know that it's getting used more and more uh but i think it's still very uh you know and obviously the more the more data the more specific data they put in there i mean that's why uae has their own program their own software um but i still think it's you know

especially with pogacar from what i've been told you know there's never a plan with him um yeah so i don't know how that's going to work that program that UAE has with Pogacar if he's going to follow the strategy or the teammates are saying that sometimes they're surprised because he's attacking and he's not supposed to attack so I think you can learn from it, you can use it, but the factor of experience and the feeling,

and I don't know how you call it in English. In German, there's a word, the Fingerspitzengefühl, like feeling the finesse. That's never going to be possible with, with a program like that. Yeah. You could also have an AI program. I mean, what do you call it? PlayStation cycling where it's like, okay, it's time to attack. And it's like, well, I feel like shit. I can't, I can't, but I do kind of wonder, I guess if like,

you know how arrow your setup is, but like, you know, they have these, like the UAa always runs the same wheels and it's like the way the wheels and the frame interact and pagacha the way he sets on the bike he can we know he can go this fast for this long putting out this amount of power taking on this amount of carbs can the if the peloton behind pulls at this power can he stay away like they probably have decent like a model on that which maybe gives him the confidence to do these attacks and i also wonder about like stage 19 of the tour this year when they went up the bonnet i don't know if you remember who was polling but it was neil's pollitt which was probably one of the heaviest guys in the race i also wonder if they

have a little mathematical model that was like well he, he's real big, but he's also real strong. And if he puts out this amount of power on this grade, it's going to put people into trouble. Yeah, but let's not forget, you know, these are all nice stories now for the offseason. That's quite true. You know, I've seen an interesting story also in the offseason from some guys at UAE. You know, and no matter what, how much science they're out there, how many AI programs are out there, the training, the training regime at UAE is reportedly incredible.

These guys train so hard, harder than, harder than anyone. I saw, I mean, I saw an interview of this young Belgian rider who they signed at the last moment his name is Rune Herreholz

comes from Intermarché strong rider was a bit of a surprise signing but he says that you know since he's now

on UAE none of his former training mates can go train with him because it's so unless unless he trains with

a flappy rain jacket yeah i did see this yeah you know because so uh it comes down to the hard work you know and then you know and then of course you need to have the riders who can assimilate that hard work and they have you have to have a big engine and uh i think that's the biggest secret the the incredible hard training yeah pavel civic office i think i mentioned this on last week's show but he was saying it just his training is totally different than it was on neo sky where they you know they describe it as like you know you're always having a little bit of pressure on the pedals but what they mean when they say that is they train at like 300 watts for five six hours so it's extremely hard like even if you're really really fit that's a lot of just time it's like upper zone two you basically live in that zone

what's funny is i'm reading uh daniel freebase book about jan ulrich and there's a lot about bianna reese in there and what's funny is Ries essentially was talking about this same thing in like 1995 and no one listened to him. They thought he was an idiot, but he's like, no, he should like train hard and only go five hours instead of training nine hours, just riding around out there. And it's funny that it's taken this long for it to become mainstream. Yeah. Although I see, I do i do see however that there's again the tendency is shifting again i see longer rides i see longer rides from professionals um especially when they're with the team at the training camps then then a few years ago so i don't know what that's due to but um it's just like what do you think like seven eight nine hours yeah yeah i've noticed that as well and i think it all comes down to we should maybe have someone smarter than us on here

but like mitochondrial adaptation in the cell and maybe those long rides help but yeah i have noticed like super long rides have become more common than they used to be. Yeah, for sure. Well, Johan, do you have anything else to share before we go? No, that's it for this week. All right. Well, we will be back next week. And what's crazy is next week, the Tour Down Under will be like in full throws. It will be happening. So World Tour Racing is back.

It's crazy to think about i will link we'll we'll have a link in the show notes here that will show you if you're an american-based listener what streaming service you can watch every world tour race on in 2025 it's almost i would call it my best guess i've researched this quite extensively i could be wrong on some of them some of them change but tour down under will be be on Peacock UA tour. We'll be on max on loop pet news, but I believe we'll be on flow bikes. But again, if you want like the detailed breakdown, it's in the show notes in a link, and we'll also share it on social media. Well, thank you so much, Johan. And we will talk next week. Okay. Thanks.