THEMOVE - Biniam Girmay's Uncertain Future, Tour Route Details & End of Season Rankings | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel dive into the just-released 2026 Tour de France route, unpack the official end of the 2025 season, and break down the final team promotion/relegation standings—and what they mean for 2026. They also discuss the latest transfer news, including the uncertain futures of Biniam Girmay and Derek Gee, before taking a few listener questions from the live Members’ chat. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Rugiet: Head to https://rugiet.com/THEMOVE and use code THEMOVE to get 15% off today. Caldera Lab: Upgrade your routine with Caldera Lab and see the difference for yourself. Go to https://CalderaLab.com/THEMOVE and use THEMOVE at checkout for 20% off your first order

Isaac del Toro in Mexico is a hero right now. He's got. And, you know, I've seen images of the time trial. It was crazy. The fans and enthusiasm and the support. It would be very, very, a big surprise if he also is not winning the national title on the road. So we may see Isak del Toro, or at least already in the time trials, but probably the whole year riding in the UAE jersey.

But the Mexican flag, but I've also read that the points are attributed already to next year, not this year anymore. Whoa, crazy. So this is the first, I mean, I've read reports that this is the first win of UAE of 2006. Wow. That is all in cycling.

You win at the, you win at the, you win mid, mid, uh, October, but it's already counted for the first win in 2006. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernille, as we are every Friday during the offseason, going through a few news items, tying up a few odds and ends from yesterday's Tour de France route announcement before we get to listener questions. If you have a question, anyone send it an incident to info at we do.com, and we'll try to get it.

if you we'll try to get to it if you absolutely need your question to be answered become a we do member put it in the chat on if you it's a little this will be streamlined in the future but currently you have to go to the members portal click into the show click through to youtube make sure you're on the app and you will see a live chat and you can ask this questions we're just trying to iron out the details before we hit the big show at the tour to france next year but yohan let's get but before we get into it let's talk a little bit about this tour de France fruit. We did a big show yesterday with with Lance Armstrong. It was great to have them. But I went away from that show and I was thinking, hmm, a few things that we didn't quite,

maybe we glossed over, maybe we didn't even know. But stage 15, I think I didn't fully digest how difficult this stage was. It finishes the final kilometer is near 10%. It's 184 long mountain stage with how many climbs. There are many categories. There are many categories. rise climbs. It finishes. It's in the Outsavois, I believe, is the region. It's a summit finish that the tour's never done before and has been done once in the dofine. Is that correct in 2022? One by Yvonnegaard. Yeah. It's a hard stage and especially it's a hard climb. I mean, I haven't seen the category in the tour, but in the dofine. It's categorized as horse category. I think it's 11 kilometers long, more or less, and it's 9% average.

So that's going to be a really hard stage, especially knowing what's coming then afterwards, you know, stage 18, 19, and 20. But, you know, it's not a stage that is on the radar of being one of the, you know, one of the critical stages because of the lack of iconic climbs like the Gallibier or Alp duess or anything else. But yeah, that's going to be, I mean, I think if I remember correctly, it was Rogledge who ended up winning the Dauphinet when he was still on jumbo Visma. And Jonas was setting the tempo. I had to wait once or twice, I think, for Roglidge.

So Roglitz gave him this, and gave him. He had to give him the stage because, you know, he had to hang on. But, and that was actually when, when Jonas won his first tour a few weeks later in 2022. Yeah, I vividly remember writing the newsletter for that finish thinking it was kind of awkward. At the, they were holding hands, but it was like a little bit of tension. And then looking back, that was kind of the beginning of the end for Primos as a leader at that team. Jonas goes on to great success. What's funny is when you actually go to these places, you start to notice things.

It's like stage 14 finishes at a ski station in the Vos. Stage 15, what we're talking about, this is like in the Alps. It's, I guess they ride through the Jura to get there. But these two places are like nowhere near each other. So that's going to be a tough transfer. And two like two summit finishes next to each other. Then you have a time trial. Then you have a rest day time trial.

And then you enter the hardest part of the race. Like that last week is absolutely brutal. And I don't think I fully. digested this like the stage 20 171 kilometers not not super long and by the way stage 19 the day before 100 that's stage 19 finishes the classic optus finish 120 kilometers that's not very long that's going to be an explosive stage but this one stage 20 I saw figure something like 50 it was like 5200 meters of climbing on the stage stage 20 yeah yeah 5600 500 meters yeah 600 meters Yeah, I mean, listen, if you do, if you do crowd affair, telegraph, Galibier,

and then up to West, via Kolda, Sarenne, I mean, it's four massive climbs. Yeah, definitely, by far the hardest stage of the whole tour de France on second last day. I think they did a good job, you know, I mean, most likely, I mean, listen, we have to be honest, Spencer. If we see the same trend and like if Bogacha is on the same level and Jonas is, I mean, I don't know if Jonas can get better than his actual level or not. If they both stay equal, the suspense is going to be, well, okay, maybe the guy in the lead has a bad day and cracks. We don't really tend to see that anymore lately either.

But at least, you know, the question mark is going to be there. that's it's not going to be over until you finish that stage and especially with you know those four massive climbs you can you know you can run out of energy um don't think it will happen but uh the doubt will be there yeah yeah we should also mention 5600 meters of climbing with 171 kilometers so i think that's like kegali world championships but but a hundred kilometers shorter yeah you know if you do long climbs you tend to get to that and they they do the highest point glibier is the highest point of the tour and this this obtuse ascent is harder than the day before the last 7k or almost 9% yeah yeah i've been i've been told by someone who has uh who has

ridden it up and down it's my my good friend antonio alix from from europeport spain told me this morning that it's the same side. So it's not another side. It's not the backside of up the west. It's the same side. It's just a different road. And so that's called called the Sarenne. And apparently it's very hard, very narrow.

I've also read reports that the surface is right now is really horrible. So they will obviously have to and they will repave it for the tour. but that that climb is actually harder than up the west itself i mean let's not forget up the west i've always thought you know up the west especially having raced it as a professional i've never thought of abdu west as the hardest climb out there it's it's very famous but you know it's it's a climb you can get speed in the corners there's little tiny moments of recovery because of the hairpins. You know, the hairpins on up the west are kind of flatish, where you can feel the

increase of the speed, yeah, where they're flat hair, you almost never see that. Yeah, yeah. So this apparently is, it's harder than up the west. Johan, it's funny, I've always thought that as someone who's not raced at that level, I've always thought that too, like embarrassingly to myself, like, is this supposed to be the hardest climb? But do you think it's better for racing, the fact that it isn't so hard that it has, as high-speed sections.

I think so. Yeah. I think so. I mean, anyway, it's almost always the most, the strongest guy who wins in Abdu, Wess anyway. But it can be tactical a bit than if they're really equal. You know, I remember one of the tours that Jonas won, I don't know if there was the first one of the second one, that they had Abdu, S.

And, you know, Taday was trying to attack a few times. And it's a climb that, that. invites for accelerations, I would say. Whereas if it's, you know, what is it? What is up the west? 12, 12.5, 12.7 kilometers, I think. Or around 13.3 kilometers or something. You know, if you have a 10 kilometer climb at 9% steady, it's completely different. Yeah. Do you think they'll ever bring back the time trial up up to Wes or was that too crazy? I think it's difficult, man. you know, if you, if you do the time trial and up the west, I would say there's only one way to do it. And if that's if they're able to put fences on the whole climb, which is almost not doable.

It's way too much. Yeah, it's a funny thing about that climb. People, it causes fans to lose their minds. It's by far the rowdiest summit finish you'll ever see. Yeah, no, I mean, people are there two, three days on beforehand, you know, and then the problem is to keep those crowds under control, most, I mean, 50% of them have been partying, you know, and there's been a lot of alcohol being consumed in the days before and the hours before the riders pass. It's a challenge. If I would be to the France organizer, I would

try to find an alternative because, yeah, I mean, and then also, I mean, it's every rider coming on their own so every time between riders they have time to go back on the road you know close that wall and then they have to open the wall has to i mean i remember when it was the time trial it was what was that 2004 i think i think so yeah it was one of the most stressful experiences i've ever had as in my career as a team director very very nervous yeah we were talking yesterday with lans So you guys were talking about the end of how reigns end. Am I right in thinking that was Eddie Merck's punched or something? Yeah.

Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was punched. I think it was, I don't know if actually, you know what? It could be, I mean, I'm, I mean, something tells me, I may be wrong, that it was actually on one of the claims we have featured in this, in next year's through the France, Orsier-Melette. I think that's where it was either there or

Pralou, but I think it was Orsier-Mir-Milet where he got punched in the side by a fan. I don't know if that ended his career, or if that ended his winning strike, but

you know, I think Eddie retired when it was 32, 31, going on 32. And I was probably like three years he hadn't won the tour anymore but but yeah i mean he started winning when at a very young age so i don't know exactly if that was the reason why his winning series in the tour de france was and was ended i do i do remember however this funny story i do remember as a child you know so eddie was beaten by i think for the first time by by bernard tavenet who

was the guy, he won the tour de France twice, he's the guy who ended the Eddie Merck's domination. And, you know, I remember man, as a, as a child, you know, I hated Bernard David. And, you know, he was a big, a tall guy riding for Peugeot. You know, the white jerseys with the, with the black squares, like the, the, yeah. And so I, I, I mean, I know, I know Bernard even. I ran into him this, this, this summer. when I was, you know, my famous visit at the Tour de France that, you know, wasn't liked by any, by, by some people. And I run into Bernard Tivine and I spoke to him and I told him.

I said, man, Bernard, I need to tell you something. As a child, I hated you. I was going to ask you to tell you that. I mean, he was very, he thought it was funny. He asked me straight away about Eddie, you know, because Eddie had at that moment, he had a, he had had a surgery and they're really good friends, by the way, Bernard Tivina and Eddie Merck's. interesting well i i i would do worry that that would happen if they did a tutor or optuice time trial but i guess that could happen on any uphill time trial a few other so the season

ended on sunday kind of maybe we'll get to that later in the show but they had the veneto classic which is confusing because there was the giro del veneto just a few days before finished in basana del grappa uno x wins super impressive win by the way if you go back and watch this race. It's a very well-done race. I was thinking about you because they had a steep wall cobbled and then they had a gravel road and then a gravel descent which

Johan, I am a fan of gravel and road races. I did think this looks a little gimmicky. It was such a hard descent. Yeah. Who was in the front? It was Italian guy. Diego Ulyssi was off the front. Yeah. And I believe he went off the road and then that's why he was a couple of times. A couple of

Yeah, yeah. And Florin and Vermis, Gravel World Champion, just the week before, gets beaten because UnoX had two riders in that group. My son is the world's biggest UnoX fan. We were close watching this race. He was, he could not, he thought it was like a pre-recorded race I picked because his favorite team won, but they win. They get quite a few UCI points from this race.

They get over, like, over 200. By, I think it, I think this guy is actually still on the development team. I never heard them before. It was his first win. Yeah. Yeah. Really strong. Really strong.

Yeah. So that basically, you know, sealed the deal. There was some doubt, you know, because COVID is there. They've been fighting back really hard. You know, every time, you know, X was there. If the Confidis was there, they had a few points in China, I guess, and in other races. So it was five or 600 at some point. They came back to 150 points, I think.

in the last few races but then finally with that win that was game over so UNOX is next year going to be part of the world tour yes so yeah that's pretty impressive

at the expense of Kofitis they relegate Kofitis so three teams move up it's Israel Premier Tech which won't be called that Uno X and Lotto but you would think oh three World Tour teams have been relegated not really really just Kofitis

and then Arcades will cease to exist, sadly, and we'll get to it later in the show. Inner Marciae will cease to exist in some form. Their license will not live on. So that's how the promotions happen. Kofidus is now in the second division. Kind of a disaster, but not really a disaster, because they've auto-qualified. They've finished high enough in the second division rankings.

They're automatically invited to every race. In some ways, it's a better position because you can pick and choose the races you want to go to. It is. So who is it? It's Duder. Q36.5 and Q306. By the way, Q305 changes name. It's going to be Pinarello Q36.5, the name of the team. So these three teams are in an ideal situation because they are entitled to race everywhere, but they don't have the obligation to race everywhere, which is even better.

Yeah. You just don't get the security because you have to perform every year. Every year. Yes. Yeah. But Currently, though, so TOTIL energies is the big loser because they get knocked out of that. They'll get an invite to the tour, you would imagine. Not so someone who's like, oh, it's not a big deal. They'll get invited to all the ASO races. Well, that's not so clear because if Total Energy is sponsoring Eniose, and Total Energy is sponsoring the Volta, like the company, then I don't think the VALTA is going to say, well, we need to invite the other Total Energy's team.

Yeah. I think they might get flicked. It might be part of the deal, though. Might be part of the deal of the sponsoring also. How weird is that that there's going to, there's going to be two total energy teams at multiple races? Yeah. Yeah. And then there's going to be one team, which is title sponsor, Winerello and also sponsoring Ineos.

Who has, who has total energy as a sponsor. So it's a big, it's a big mix. It's a big mix of, yeah, of very. You don't see that so often. now that I think about because obviously bike sponsors will sponsor multiple teams but little trek is the only trek team correct yeah there's no other yeah well I think right now it's it's only in the so in the in the world tour it's own I mean or if you mean I think you could put cuter disease point five at the same level there's only two two teams right it's it's

specialized who which sponsors Red Bull Bora and Sudhaq Quickstep and Pennello sponsors Q306.5 and other than that that makes me wonder for example what's going to happen with Scott where is Scott going to because Scott was sponsoring

U306.5 are they going to find another team to sponsor it's this late in the season you know if you're a big brand you kind of you know have to be sponsoring a first division team yes that's a very good point because i think there's a lot of talk of oh it's not worth it people love to compliance me if you know bike marketing people it's always it's not worth

it to sponsor these teams you kind of have to and it is worth it colinago was was floundering they were not like they were a shell of themselves since they've started sponsoring the team and pagatra started winning their sales are like doubling and tripping every year it's it is really important to sponsor a team you forget there's there's there's bike brands, I would say their names and you would say, I forgot they were a bike brand because they're not in the world tour or second division. Yeah, for example, I mean, there's one, there's one brand, for example, Merida. So they, they finished their sponsorship with Bahrain.

These guys can actually, you know, they're so big. They're so big and they're manufacturing for many other brands. They can say, okay, you know what, we'll sit out for a while. Scott, I don't think is in that position. And another one which disappears, I assume, is the cube, which is the bike sponsor for Intermarche. Yes. You know, so that's also a big brand. So what are they going to do?

So that's going to be interesting to follow. We may see some last minute movements, although I think at this point, if you still have to decide on what bike sponsor are you going to have, that's a big job for the team staff in the offseason. Well, yes, and it used to be common, like specialized, I think, at four teams at one point. I'm assuming that becomes it's shrinking because it's so expensive to sponsor a team now. Yeah, yeah, cash-wise and bike-wise. But also, you got to say, Penerello, that's a good brand for that team. Like Q-36.5, what is that? I don't even know that.

But you hear the team, Pinerrello, Q-36.5. Like, you've now, like, captured the attention. of the casual person. But it's the same owner, Pinarello and Q305 have the same owner who owns the team also. So I think that makes sense that you're kind of sponsoring your own team, right? But yeah, other than that, Spencer, what do we have? By the way, I just checked correction. Eddie Merckes was not punched on Orsier-Mellet, but on Pue de Dom.

Preeto. Yeah. Yeah. I have a friend Lionel Bernie who I've got to admit, these are all like, this is blind spots for me, that era of cycling. But he knows like all these significant climbs and is like how they rank. It was like, man, Puitidome. Tell me it's Puitidome or Alpduez. I don't know the difference.

But one thing, you mentioned that this bike, that if you don't have a bike brand now, you're in trouble. I heard that a team, like, teams are already doing pre-season camps. Like, riders are going to get fitted on the new bikes and with the new kit now. But the season is still happening. And so, like, this, the season and pre-season have merged officially. Like, we're a snake that never ends, correct? Yeah. I mean, we've seen lately in the last five years, six, ten years, that the first, uh, the first

first gathering. I mean, there are teams that actually stay after Tour of Lombardy for three, four days to get the first get together of the new team. So like they stay in Italy and they do a three, four. That's so bad for you mentally. I mean, to not have a. Yeah, but you know, I mean, it's not training. Right. You know, you get together, you get to know each other, talk about your first wishes about the calendar and then they have a few more training. in camps, of course. But it's also becoming more and more difficult to find time to have the whole team together. You know, all the riders and all the staff together, it's, it's becoming almost impossible because it has to be November or December, because January is, it's impossible

because, you know, most of the teams have to travel to Australia already for two down under. That's a good point. And then, wow. That is so hard for to not. I mean, what does off season look like for like while Vinard's been quiet? I assume what does he take two weeks off the bike, you think? Yeah, two, three weeks. But they do other stuff when they run. Yeah, typically two three.

I mean, I think three weeks is good, especially meant for mentally. You need to check out a bit. Yes. But some guys do two weeks. You know, two weeks and they're back at it. November, they're ramping up again. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Ouch. This does show you why it's so hard to have a sustained career of excellence because that is exhausting mentally and physically. Yeah. Yeah, no, no. It's the thing is that the level is so high. I mean, you kind of have to prepare, you have to do your own training camp to get to be fit enough to be doing.

be able to do the first team training camp because they're already at such a high level. Yeah, that's wild. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then I have some things to ask you about when we come back. Like the season never ending with the Mexican national championships, not having happened yet, but we'll be right back. Hey, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Ruggi at Golong. How do we think Tadapagacar felt when he took a look at the 2026 Tour de France route when it was released yesterday?

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slash the move for 20% off your first order. All right, back to the show. So, Johan, we're back. We said the season's done. We're talking about the rankings, but there's still UCI points to be harvested because the Mexican national championships is currently happening. Isaac Del Toro, spoilers for anyone, if you've Tebowed this. He won the time trial, the national championship time trial.

Not a shock yesterday. He gets 50 UCI points for that. That's not an insignificant amount of points, especially considering the margins we were seeing. and then I assume there's a road race this weekend for the Mexican national championships. Yeah. I think tomorrow or Sunday. Yeah. Yeah, that's a bit, that comes a bit out of the blue. Spencer, I've tried to get some more, some more detailed information. I mean, from what I've been reading, it's a strange situation because the Mexican, the National Cycling Federation of Mexico was banned or suspended. it. I am assuming there was allegations of corruption and, you know, misuse of funds.

I don't know exactly what, but they were not anymore validated by the UCI. This season and I think also last season. And now all of a sudden I see, yeah, well, there's, you know, out of the blue, there's the Mexican cycling championships outside of the calendar, basically. basically, because the season is finished, and there's a new federation out of the blue also. I don't know the exact name, something. I mean, it's like the Mexican Cycling Association or something. So it's nothing to do with the old federation.

It's completely new. There's a new president. I don't know if he's been elected or if he's been put there by someone. But in any case, apparently it has been approved by the UCI. And so straight away, they organize the national championships. It was a bit strange for me. So in my, so what I see, I see that they are trying to bank on the huge popularity of Isaac del Toro to organize this event.

Isaac Del Toro in Mexico is a hero right now. He's got. And, you know, I've seen images of the time trial. It was crazy. The fans and enthusiasm and the support. it would be very, very, a big surprise if he also is not winning the national title on the road. So we may see Isaac del Toro, or at least already in the time trials, but probably the whole year riding in a UAE jersey, but the Mexican, with the Mexican flag. But I've also read that the points are attributed already to next.

year not this year anymore whoa crazy this is this is the first i mean i've read reports that this is the first win race of uae of 2006 wow that is only in cycling you win at uh mid you win at you win mid october but it's already counted for the first win in 2006 clear as mud who doesn't understand that here i'm going to see team wins So they finished the season with 96 wins. So they wanted 100, but they're not going to get 100 because this won't count. Yeah. Yeah.

And second place was Sudol, Quick Step at 54 wins. So almost, they've almost doubled that. Here's another crazy stat. The UCI points team rankings, I'm pulling them up, I'm vamping, I'm stalling. So they have 40,000 points, almost 41,000. Vizma has 22,000. So they've almost doubled that. But they're getting.

gap between UAE and Vizma is bigger than the gap between Vizma and the 25th placed team. That is wild. And also, and the same, the same goes for Pogacar, his points with number two is also almost, is also almost double. The crazy thing about that is he raced fewer days than Jonas Vindigard. Did he? Double, doubled his points. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That's, yeah. it says a lot that's that's pretty impressive one of the thing odds and end I was going to bring up did you see this

stage four of the tour of Holland it was the the massive mountain in northern Holland the Vam to the Vom to the Vam

to the Vamberg yeah the Vamberg yeah great little climb I think European Championships was there a few years and Dutch championships

also a few when the European championships were there La Port one one two three for vizma one two three report vannart and olaf coi postcard from another time right where vizmo was ruining cycling with their domination but also goes to show you shouldn't complain about that stuff because it cycles through so fast but lopurk it's second looks pretty good beaten by timo di yang who apparently

was a club rider who worked in a bike shop 26 years old and then now he has a world tour contract Where is he going? Sorry, he was a stagier for picnic post-10L this year. Yeah, he was on a, on a, is it Continental or Protein? I think Continental. Yeah, so third division. Volker vessels, yeah. But, yeah, strong rider, strong rider.

And yeah, he beat Kubis. Kubik or Kubis, no. It's Kubis? Lucas Kubis. Kubis and La Porte in the sprint, really strong. I saw that stage. Yeah, I mean, that, you know, Tour of Holland was, it was a bit of a struggle. I've spoken to some people who were there.

And, you know, it's a very nice initiative to try to revive the Tour of Holland. I mean, before there was always the Tour of the Netherlands. But they do have this huge problem in the Netherlands that they are not getting access to police to regulate the traffic. So there was a lot of of these stages were on circuits. And it was a bit of a mess. But yeah, let's hope they can improve on that for the future. And it was also a stage race that I had not see coming. All of a sudden it popped up.

And yeah, very late in the season. But still, it was good racing. I've heard that there's rules in Holland that like, volunteers can't stop they don't have the same authority so they don't yeah exactly that pinches you there's probably also no it's no uh mistake that the wealthiest what like the wealthiest pocket of europe with the highest efficiency is the one that places the least amount of importance i'm putting on bike races so we've got places to go we can't have people blocking the road yeah you got to go make money and so this lotto intermarche merger which

I kind of thought it was a done deal is maybe not so much a done deal. There's a looming November 1st deadline. Yeah. Two big,

I guess, two big open cases here that need to be decided. A, if Beniam Grimai is racing for Lotto Intermarsche, the combined team next year, we have been operating

under the assumption of no, because Intermarshey is shutting down, that license goes away. He's free to leave. Now we're finding out potentially if he, leaves, Intermarche might not want to sponsor the combined team, which then makes the question,

Johan, why were they ever interested in the first place? Because I don't even, I don't even know why they are interested even with Gidemi because, okay, Girmai is obviously a great, great writer. But obviously they have been trying to find a co-sponsor for a while. When they lost destiny, it was a lotto by itself this year and they need extra money but um that merger really i mean in my opinion it's it's it's a disaster uh in the making um very much uncertainty we've read these reports of writers who have been told uh at the last moment that there was no place for them certain riders have contracts um there's there are writers that have been offered there's one rider i think uh if i'm not mistaken this uh sprinter gerben tason

um he's a good sprinter he's a pretty good sprinter uh so he will most likely make the move to alpacin um and intermarche or the team has made an agreement that uh they're going to pay half of his contract so really good deal for alpacin to get a sprinter uh on board although I think his contract is a bit too big for his value. But there's many writers who have been told at the last moment and staff. I spoke to some staff members already and they told me that they got a call out of the blue when they have been told in June or July or just after the news during the tour that everything was okay for them and now all of a sudden they get a call.

and okay, hey, thank you very much for your service, but we don't need you anymore. I was surprised, though, to read this report, I don't know how much of it we can really rely on, but that the UCI is apparently blocking the situation of Binyam Girmai, his contract, and that right now he's a bit in limbo. I don't know what the exact reasons are or what the ruling says. I would guess that Girmai, if he has a contract with Team Intermarche and he has a contract with the paying agent of Intermarche, since that paying agent is going to be different with Lotto, because Lotto is basically the paying agent of the team. And since Intermaché has not submitted

an application for a World Tour license, he's free. I mean, UCI and Sporting regulating regulations tend to think that their rules overrule normal rules. But I'm pretty sure that if Girmai has a good lawyer and he goes to any labor court, it's a very short hearing. It's a five-minute discussion. In my opinion, Gimai is free to leave. And I think it's almost, I mean, not officially yet, but it's almost sure that he's. has signed already a deal with the new name of the team, Cycling Academy, formerly Israel Premier Tech. We will call Cycling Academy next year. Well, Benim Garvai is the smartest man in the world because we were sitting here during the summer saying, what a fool. Why is he going

to Israel Premier Tech? So many problems. It's a disaster. Well, now Lotto-in-Marchet are floundering around. Do they have any money? Intermerchet is the team deeply in debt took out a huge loan from one of the sponsors. So we have to assume that's other Intermarche or Cube or Wanty. And I almost wonder,

I don't even understand why they're merging, Johan, because why would Lotto not just say, hey, Intermarshey shut that team down and come sponsor us? Germai is parachuted out of here and now he's going to go and he's going to be the headline writer of a brand new team.

and no one will remember that they were ever Israel Premier Tech. Yeah. If he can get off this team, I think it's a pretty good situation for him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm, you know, as we know, you know, that team is known to really pay riders, take contracts. And I think for Binyam Gimai, it's a great situation. Speaking of great situations, smart people, the root hoofs are playing the sport like fiddles,

Johan. So they own the Alpison de Konek team. We heard all summer, boo-hoo, we're so poor. We can't afford anybody. Alpison's or DeKonek is leaving as a sponsor. I'm sorry, expensive older riders over the age of 30 costing us a lot of money. We just cannot afford to resign you. They all leave.

Now they're getting a great sprinter at half the price because Enormache is going to loan them to them. And oh, they've re-signed DeKonik as a sponsor and they're back. And they have, to me, like staying away. from the contracts that they stayed away from is the key for a team at that level because they just focus on the best they have the best riders they have no middle class and then they have really good riders that work for the team yeah contribute to the greater good yeah no it's it's i mean i don't know if it's if it's luck or uh the kuning had announced that they would stop as the second sponsor the naming sponsor uh although they had mentioned that

most likely they would remain on the jersey in a smaller capacity. But now I've read reports that they have reconsidered and that they will stay on board. I don't know if it's going to be the same amount. I don't have that information. But it looks like, yeah, the team will remain Alpacin de Koenig. And I mean, a lot of expensive riders left. You know, I think probably one of the guys who has changed his mind, afterwards is for example this what's his name edward plankart you know who had announced

already he was announced with uh officially announced with suzok at all yeah and now uh he's not there and he's back at alpacin so it must be that with the renewal uh or or the konig's thing on board that the rotov brothers were able to match the contract and uh or at least offer a really good contract again to Edward Plunkard because he's important in the lead out this guy for Philipson. Yeah, he is really important. That's a that's a writer you want and that's the writer they feast on. You know, they have guys that win. They have everybody else. I'm doing this from memory. So I'm sorry, Daniel if I don't get it right. But Daniel Benson published like salary bans for each type of writer. So, you know, grand tour contenders, one day winners, helpers, like, pure domestiques.

And then the middle class was, let's just say, between three and 600,000 euros. And from his analysis, Alpuss and DeKonek had the least amount of riders in that middle section, which to me is very, obviously to make that work, you have to have guys that win a lot. Yeah. Like, you ask for Phillips and Matthew Vanderpull. Having two of the best writers in the world, pretty helpful. Yeah. But that is so clever.

I mean, to me, they're just like, they're playing check chess and everyone else is playing checker. They have this figured out. It also helps they're from Belgium and they're sitting on the most fertile soil for that type of rider as possible. They also don't have GC riders and they've not been tempted to go to, you know, to tangle with that dragon. Like why do you think more teams don't follow that, Johan? Is it insecurity? Do they not have the riders to win the sprints? I mean, you know, if you have a guy like Fondel Poole and Phillips and and Gaten Groves,

you know it's a lot i mean if you if you take on gc guys you have to change a lot of your structure in terms of you know recruiting you have to have other riders to support that gc rider you have to change your calendar um i mean to not change a calendar you have to do the world to races anyways but um now i think it's just a lot of change i mean look what happened to suddok quick step when they have changed their whole philosophy around round Remko, it hasn't really been very successful. You know, I mean, before Sondok Quickstep was the dominating team in, in the classics, and now they haven't dominated, not in the classics and not in the, not in the state races.

Well, in the most expensive domestiques are climbing domestiques. Yeah. Cheapest domestics are flat domestiques. And so if you chase, remember they had Jay Vine and they didn't really work to retain them because if they keep Jay Bine and Jay Vines are GC rider, they got to sign a bunch of expensive riders to support Jay Vine. Pretty clever cost control

and performance-wise it works out. What's funny is Soudal's going back the other way. They signed Lawrence Rex from Intermarche. That's a good signing for them. I guess they lose. I liked Edward Plankart as a signing, but they've lost him. But I like the way Suddahl's crown.

They've replaced him in Lawrence Rex. Yeah. Yeah. No, a strong rider. Yeah, I think, I think Sudal did a few good really signings you know i mean they they look like uh plus you know they got a huge new sponsor you know in the form of red bull anonymous anonymous paid by red bull yes um that's always very handy it's really powerful if you think about it because it is it's like having a sponsor that you don't have to do anything for you just let remco go a year early and remco

you you lose a year of production that's not nothing but he was going to leave anyway so yeah it's a win-win kind of did you see wout poles is going to unibet road i guess rose bikes unibet or whatever the team will be called the name is the name of the new team is i mean the name of the team is unibet rose rockets unibet rose rockets yeah they know what they're doing yeah well tools yeah yeah i mean it's it's definitely gonna i mean it's an experienced writer uh dutch um you know has has been on big teams and uh will bring a lot of experience and also gives some more depth to their you know potential spot for the two to france yeah because they're going you got to show up with but we don't know we don't know yet if they're going but you know technically we don't know

but the wild cards haven't been attributed yet but it looks like yeah especially also because they are dutch but they are a french team officially registered in france really yeah he's another he's another well actually no they're still they're still with uh e f but canondale is also out there they were sponsoring that team i didn't know that's interesting yeah i just don't see who rose bikes now yeah I didn't see who, I don't think, I don't know how many options the tour has. If they don't invite totiles in, lock them in, and then you're looking at, they're not going to invite Italian or a Spanish team right now, no, no, no.

So, yeah, maybe Wagner, Basin. I don't think so, though. I don't think that would be a good fit. That team is finished. Man, it's prime time to launch a team and get a wild card invite to the tour. well before we go to questions just a quick question for you i read daniel benson had a nice little breakdown of the derrick g situation the thing that's a lot of it is just unknown and pretty confusing but he asked he goes to this you see at arbitration board whatever it's decided is

going to get appealed to cass so they're going to have to go to cast i was just reading this thinking the timelines were pretty daunting that daniel was putting out there like year to two years i was thinking, why is Derek G. doing this, Johan? Because even that would, that would be scary to me if I was him and thinking, is this going to be tied up for 12 months? It's a long time for a writer. Yeah. I don't think it's going to get to that point, though. But hey, I mean, we don't know. You know, he had his reasons. Maybe he and his legal team are absolutely sure that they have a valid reason to terminate the contract because it's not possible anymore for him to work in the circumstances that he signed up for.

You know, if the paying agent stays the same, which I assume it is, but actually, you know, I mean, it might have been Israeli and now it becomes Canadian. So that's already illegal, I mean, changing paying agents, different regulations. I don't know. Something I remember vaguely from the past. I'm sorry. Sorry. This is like, come here.

This is an unforeseen. This is my assistant. My assistant. Here, look at this guy. He, uh, he must have heard something. This is Bobby, three and a half months old. Bobby, quiet. Pretty cute.

What do you say? What do you think? What do you think of the deroggy situation? situation. That's the UCI attorney right there. So, I mean, I think, I think he, when he made, when he, when he, when they sent that letter, they must have, they must have been sure. And, you know, I already said in the past. Normal civil law is what's going to decide. I mean, whatever UCI arbitration board or even Cass now. I mean, Cass has been weakened lately and can be overruled by normal court. So I just think that there's going to be a solution and Derek G. is going to start the season

with Ineos. What is it? Ineos? Total. Total. Yeah. Interesting. I hope it gets resolved. I mean, to me, that would just be so sad if he misses even half the season. Just, that's what I would be freaked out about if I was dergy. But clearly, he said it's not about money. I assume there's going to be a pay bump involved, do you think? Yeah, probably. Probably.

I mean, listen, he's a good writer. At the same time, you know, he's not a writer that you can build a whole team around with certain guarantees. Um, but, um, but yeah, I think, I think it's definitely a better contract. And, and the way I read it, the relationship between Derek G and the team owner, Silva and Adams was, uh, not great anymore. Uh, and that might be the reason why he, why he wants to leave. Derek G currently makes less than multiple writers we reference to leaving Alveson, which, puts in the perspective how good of a deal that is currently for Israel Premier SAC.

Yeah. Yeah. It shows you why they don't want to give it up. They sign that deal. Like they, you probably should think, well, okay, that's a nice deal we did. Let's cash in on it and move on or renegotiate the deal. Yeah. That's what most teams do.

I think right now, right now it's not a matter of trying to make him stay. It's more a matter of, okay. You want to do this, I'm going to mess with you with your career. That's the purpose. Otherwise, it makes no sign. I mean, you don't want to fight, let's play that out. He wants to leave, you know. But even let's play that out.

So you mess with them. You really mess them up. You're still in the business of getting riders to come ride for you. Yeah. So are you not just teaching riders to never sign with you? Yeah. Well, didn't seem to bother Beniam get my and his agent. Probably a few million reasons why that didn't bother him.

Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll get to questions unless you have any other updates. All right, we're back. First question. I hope these are appropriate because I've not vetted them. This is from David Brown. Question for Johann. Taday has taken his advice. I assume he means Johan's advice and raced smarter recently. But we all love is Panache. Could we see a return to diva status to win his fifth tour and try to keep the jersey for the whole tour? That's such a good question. David, it's something we didn't talk about in the preview yesterday or today, but will the eventual winner take the opening jersey? And actually, there's not a lot of great opportunities to give the jersey away. There is. Yeah, there is. I'm going to say no. He's not. I mean, even if he takes the jersey on day one, which is very, very possible. No, they can't. You just as a team you cannot I mean they're gonna okay there's there's a way it happens if you keep it without wanting to keep it that's always possible because I think you want to give it the way and then there's other teams you know riding for whatever and they you know the breakaway

never gets far enough for you to get the jersey give the jersey way but you know the different the the the the team time trial is short um so i think on day two and day three well day three is yeah they're both jose days is the problem so yeah it needs to happen somewhere there in the second week um but i would with with the last week uh you just can't you have to you have to let it go well the the friend here is the time trial is not until stage 16 So if the time trial was early, it gets hard to give it away, but there's going to be riders close that won win. I'm trying to think back to that zero he won, Johan. How many days did he have the pink jersey?

Was it 20 of the days? What? He didn't give it away, no? So he didn't win on stage one. He didn't win on stage one. But he won on stage two, I think. Yeah, and he got the jersey on stage two. Yeah.

And I don't think that anybody else took the jersey after that. So he got at stage two and held it to the end. Okay. Wow. Almost as Johnny Buneo in 1991. Same thing. Well, Johnny Buneo won stage one and kept the jersey all the way. The plan was to do that.

He just got beat by Nobias. Yeah. And then this guy beat me. Okay, let's sign him. He's good signing too. He was on Enos when he beat. And he beat Bolacha

Yeah, that's funny to think about You know who's good? Who's beating me? Let's make a list of those. They should sign Mateo Schemosa and then eventually there's no one left to beat them. Do you think his panache will come back? I personally, I think he's entering a new fate.

He's like a destroyer now. He doesn't seem to waste any energy that he doesn't need to. Yeah, that's the way to do. I mean, listen, as a team manager, I would definitely advise him to raise the way he raised. This year, you know, like really calculating and go whenever it matters and not try to do anything. I mean, his attack, his attack at the bottom of what I come, for example, was, was risky, in my opinion. But, I mean, of course, we can't, we can't say, we can't have a feeling of, you know, how he feels.

And then probably he felt already that Jonas was not having a great day, you know, because you know that of your rivals. You know, it's usually not, it's usually before you place the last attack. You already know, okay, this guy doesn't have a great day to day. Yeah, I get, yeah, it was risky, kind of. But then he took, the juice was worth to squeeze because he took so much time. That was it. I was getting it beyond cruise control for the rest of the race. Yeah.

Ian asked one about Primos. I'm going to push that because I want to bundle all the Primos questions. Larry asks, are there factors a team director uses during the tour that influenced tactical decisions. And Johan, what's the worst and best tactical decision you've made as a director? That's a pretty good question. Well, are the factors? What do you mean?

Are there factors that influence tactical decisions? What did that mean? Maybe Larry will. Well, let's start with the second half of that. What's the worst and best tactical decision you've ever made? Foof. The worst tactical decision. Ah.

Some writers on the team, some writers on the team will probably say, letting a breakaway take 30 minutes or something in the tour that happened one year and we had what year was that i don't know 2001 or something and that's when there someone had the leave by like 27 minutes right it was uh francois simon i think he was on a team called bonjour french team and uh yeah he had the he had the leader jersey were like 20 something minutes And yeah, he ended up, I don't know. I think he ended up like 15 minutes down in G.C. I mean, looking at it now, I mean, back then, I was pretty sure, you know, of that decision.

And also, we just, you know, we were going to blow up if we had to chase it down because it was a huge, a huge break. And I remember I made that decision because we were changing. chasing that break. And I could see the team bit by bit exploding. And then at some point, there was one rider in the breakaway who had a flat. And that's why we were chasing was Vinokurov was in the break. When he decided to, when he, when he had a flat and came back to the Peloton, we decided to stop. And no other team was, was having any intention to set the tempo. So we said, you know you don't want to do anything we don't do anything either so they uh they took 30 something minutes 35 minutes i think do you think that would happen now you don't see that so much

unthinkable i think about yeah i wish it would i guess the closest i can think of is ben o'connor at the volta we took all that time yeah and he ended up getting second yeah yeah um yeah so I don't know if that's the worst decision. Yeah. I don't know, really. I mean, probably made some really bad decisions, but nothing stuck out, stands out. Best decision. There's not any.

I mean, I know. Larry's follow-up might help us there. Factors include rider position and the stage, the way a writer's feeling, and the reliability of radio communications. Wouldn't you say it was a pretty good idea of, Wasn't Jan Orrick, or you guys had Lance set at the back and said he was not feeling well? Yeah, I don't know if that's the best decision. It's definitely the most fun decision that we took. Yeah, when, you know, we saw that the team was not as strong as we thought.

I mean, and, you know, controlling the tour of France as one single team without any assist even for other objectives like green jersey or white jersey from other teams that's hard and so we made that decision you know saying okay you know we'll put on a little show and fake that Lance is not feeling great and everybody was always used but this was the first mountain stage first big mountain stage to help the west and we went I remember we went over Madelan and then there was the called de Glendon after that and then down to bourgeois and up to west and so on the motherland lance was in the back so he people were getting dropped but he was in the back of the front group which was about 30 riders and so nobody was

used to see that you know usually postal was setting the pace on the first climb and then basically controlling the stage and and so yeah i mean team mobile or telecom back then they just went for it and And they said, okay, he's bad. We're just putting up the tempo. And they did the job for us. They did the job that we were supposed to do normally with Postal. And Lance was, you know, pretty good at, you know, pulling some faces. And the TV fell for it.

And I gave an interview life. They came to me, you know, and they were asking, hey, what's wrong? I say, I don't know. My radio is not working. I can't communicate with Lance. You know, it doesn't look. I mean, I'm not used to. seeing this. So I kept the doubt open and they just pulled the whole stage until the bottom

of up to west and then we took over. And yeah, that was it. You created the Vizma blueprint. And Vizma watched that and said we should always set the pace from the way. Times have changed. You know, it's different cycling. Yeah. We like Vizema. We're just giving joking. So Ian asks, and there's two Primos, there's multiple Primus questions. So Ian asks, what do you think is next for Primos? Primos Ruggwich, I assume he means. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know what Primos is motivation. I mean, to me, you know, he's up there. But I think Primos kind of knows that he has reached his max. and he has gotten the maximum out of his career already. He's still a very good writer, but he's not dominating anywhere anymore. Not even, I mean, if you would say Primos goes to the Vuelta this year, it would not be the Primos we've seen in the Vuelta. He would probably not have won the Vuelta.

And not the Gero. Do you think he would have won the Gero had he not crashed out? What's that? Would he have won the Gero this year, had he not crashed out? of it? I don't know, man. I don't know. He was more dominant before in one week stage races. So I think Primos is still one of the big dogs, but there's a lot of young dogs now that are there who can beat him. So I just think Primos is going to, I mean, he probably focus on one week stage races and then Giro or Vuelta.

I mean, if I'm Primos, I'm trying to Vulta again. I'd be the only, the only record holder because now he's tied, no, with, uh, is four, four, four, four vaultas. I believe it's four. Yeah. And that's a tie with, uh, with Roberto Eras. Volta's not so easy though. He's not a Pagacho.

You had Jonas this year, you're going to mind up a Pagacho next year. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we don't know. I mean, will, I mean, Pogacar, will he? I don't know, man. I think he's going to go classics to the France world championships. You know, probably not the Vuelta. I don't know.

I mean, yeah, he can. I mean, if he's on this strike to, you know, like, take off all the boxes and the VALTA still missing, we might see him next year in the Vuelta. Quick question about this. So Pagacier finishes this season incredibly. well. No notes. Like unbelievable. Didn't go to altitude after the tour.

Are altitude camps overrated? They're very expensive financially. They're expensive emotionally. You're away from home. I believe he just slept in a tent in his house, like an altitude tent. It's kind of, I mean, it's very similar. It's the future.

I think so. I think so. I mean, it's, I think it's a standard now. I'm going to guess that most of the professionals have this facility. their home or they go somewhere, you know, like the hotel we talked about in Salas, Spain. So, so yeah, I think, you know, altitude camps are obviously the advantage is that you sleep at altitude and you train in the mountains. Yes. So, I don't know. I mean, If you live in like Monaco, sleeping in an altitude tent is not easy either, you know.

It's not fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the, when you're, I find there's a certain altitude I go above where my training's not as quality because I'm not putting out. Like my body's atrophine and then I'm not sleeping as well. So you can start to crater above a certain point. But everyone's going to have different experience with that.

Last one before we go. Two questions about Primos. He's had a great career. how many of his wins would he give up for one tour victory a lot and then the second part of this is would he trade careers with garret thomas essentially all of his all of his wins for a tour victory i don't think so i don't think so i think in terms of two vaultas what's that does he give two vaultas up for a tour win of in a heartbeat four vault is probably right i mean i don't listen i mean every every every grand tour win is you know has

his own store its own story and but yeah if you ask brimos give up two vultas for a tour win straight away anyway would do that yeah yeah two vault is in a zero even maybe yeah but uh yeah garen thomas is that a great career so i don't i don't know i don't know i I guess they're so different. You probably, in reality, you would never give up a victory, right? Because it means so much to you that you wouldn't want to give that up. Yeah, but look, for example, take the example of grain Thomas. Like, you know, he was first, he won a tour, he was second in tour, he was third in the tour,

and he was third in the Gero and second in the Gero. And he was a classics writer before that. Never on the podium in the Vuelta. nobody cares about that i was going to say nobody cares no it yet no one no one no one could tell you that he wasn't um won e3 he was great track rider yeah yeah he said a good career champion and was he not olympic champion also in the team pursuit i thought he was i think so and this this second part of this question i can give an easy quick answer to primo's famous famous is running on race days.

This is alleges to be true that it goes for a run before stages. I don't know if I believe it. Well, it might have been the case earlier on his career. Probably not in the big stage races. I don't know. I don't know, though. I've heard that, you know, in the tour sometime, you know, could it be mistaken or confused with, you know, a morning walk or, you know, a little.

a little jog in the morning just to get your body. I mean, he's not running for the bus. He's not running fast. Let me tell you that much. And I mean, I actually looked into this and talked to someone that works for a team that's at every race. And he said he runs every morning and he's never seen Primo's out running the morning before a race. So if he is running, it's not a lot. Do you ever see him winning an Ironman?

No. These triathletes are so fast. like we've gone past the point of oh yeah yeah yeah it's it's actually and i feel like the top iron iron people used to be other athletes would come from other sports now they're so good they're born and bred in triathlon and they do not you can't part-time and iron man win these people are incredible by the way speaking of other sports you see tom dumula in his first ever marathon running 229 yeah i did see that that's that's pretty impressive 229 man that's fast for you know somebody who was doing another sport his whole life could he be training the same

amount and still he probably would be a decent professional cyclist if he was putting just the same amount of work into riding i mean his time has passed you know he could be on group he he burned out mentally at some point yeah well it's what we were talking about early in the show with I don't know how people do it mentally it would be really hard yeah did you see the tour of Switzerland they tried to slide this in did you see it's five stages now yeah they yeah that is it so it's down from eight it was eight this last year it used to be two weeks right I did when I when I did it was 10 days 10 days yeah so yeah I'm like it was actually 10 days until fairly recently and then man five days that yeah that is a blow i mean to me it never

made a ton of sense that you had two eight-day stage races right before the tour but this means if you want to prepare for the tour seriously you're going to the dofine or what is it called it's a different name now no tour to rhone alps or something ron alps or something like that Yeah, I guess it wasn't in the dofinae region, which is maybe one of the reasons why they changed the name, but I don't know, you got to keep the name. We like the name. Don't change it. Anything else, Johan, before we take off. No, I think we covered a lot.

It's a long show, one hour, 15 minutes. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. We got to get out of here. I must have had the, I've been looked at the wrong clock the whole time. I was like, we're flying through this thing. My clock's moving at half speed. But all your kids are being really quiet.

I know. We had Spencer dealing with his kids and I had my personal assistant, Bobby, interrupting us. It's been quite an eventful show. Well, much love to Bobby and we'll see you next week, Johan. Thank you everyone for joining us. Okay, bye-bye. Okay, bye.