THEMOVE - Can a New Collective Really Fix Cycling's Business Model? | La Vuelta a España 2026 Stage 16 | THEMOVE

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down Visma delivering Matthew Brennan to his fourth stage win of this Vuelta, and sixth for the team, and how it affects the Green Jersey classification. They also debate the recent news about the launch of a Collective Cycling Group and whether there is truly a chance for fundamental change in pro cycling, before previewing Wednesday's Stage 17, which will likely deliver another bunch sprint as the GC contenders look ahead to brutal mountain stages remaining. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Ultra Pouches: Ultra is the ultimate guilt-free pouch — delivering instant focus and mental clarity, without nicotine or caffeine. New customers can use code THEMOVE to get 15% off at https://TakeUltra.com. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. PLEASE support our show and tell them our show sent you. Eight Sleep: Use code THEMOVE at https://eightsleep.com/themove for up to $350 off. 30 days to try it at home. Free returns if it's not for you.

Visma in their history, they have never won more than six stages in the ground tour. So, you know, a record statistic can be broken, which, you know, they will try. And I think it's very realistic to think, you know, tomorrow we could be there already. Tomorrow we could be at seven stages. And then stage 21, I think we just looked at the profile. I think it's, you know, definitely within reach for Van Art. and maybe even also Matthew Brennan. I'm going to predict

tomorrow is Brennan and stage 21 is Van Art. So eight stages. I agree with you, by the way. I think Brennan's got tomorrow. I think stage 21, perfect for Van Art. At this point, I'm just, I'm already crafting my newsletter for Wild Van Art winning the world championships.

It's in the books. Put it down. No one can be. Nothing bad, Johan. The misfortune never besp. falls this man. He's got it. It's going to happen. Everybody, welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Brinio. We are breaking down stage 16 of the Valta Spagna, as well as doing a stage 17 outcomes preview for tomorrow's stage. Well, we'll get Johan's take on who's going to win. Probably,

Johann will be Matthew Brennan, winner of today's stage. Shep finished 181 kilometers through the heat of southern Spain beats Brian Kakar, uncoffitis, Vito Barat. on Lato Inter-Marchet coming in third. I mean, I could name names. I can name all the names I want. It was a one-man sprint, basically. Wattvinard let out Matthew Brennan wasn't even really close. We had a little bit of drama, some splits in the crosswinds with around 20 kilometers to go.

It was Red Bull up there splitting it, just trying to stay at front. Not quite sure exactly what they were doing. There was a breakaway, five-rider breakaway got reeled in. Visum is not, Vizam is keeping these brakes on an extremely tightly. So there wasn't even really a risk of the break staying away. Kevin Vermarka, your pick for the UAE rider to win a stage. It was up there once again. Keep an eye on him as this goes along.

But our move of the day, Johan, is brought to you by, as it always is. By eight sleep, eight sleep is a mattress topper that makes your bed colder and warmer. Sponsors UAE team memorits. They use it for every race throughout the entire year. Every race and every training camp. Keeping the riders comfortable, helping them get quality sleep, which is the most important thing. I was talking to a writer at this Felta. He said he's been focusing on sleeping better and he's felt the best he's ever felt in this career.

Who would have thought? Sleep is important. But if you want a mattress to tapper and eight sleep mattress topper, go to eight sleep. com slash the move for $350 off through the end of this Welta. But Johan, what is your eight sleep move of the day for stage 16? Okay, Spencer. I think my move of the day, eight sleep move of the day, I'm not going to say Matthew Brennan. I'm going to say Walt Von Art.

Walt Vonhardt for having controlled that final, basically guided Matthew Brennan the whole stage, especially in the final of the race, and just motor to the front whenever he decided to. And again, those are certain things that I don't really understand. You know, Vizma obviously they're down to six riders, so it was only Walt Vonnegut and Brennan left. So there was no real, nobody really left to do the lead-out. before the lead-out of the sprint but you know there were other yellow guys who were leading them out the guys from you know x um but my move of the day definitely Walt bonnard and in which fashion he delivered matthew brennan you came to the front right at the right moment and then basically

dropped him off with 150 meters to go um you know there was there was nothing else to say you know they were they cocar was at the wheel maus came back a little bit but But, you know, it was not even close. So, Walt Von Hart, my ace lead move of the day. I like it. I mean, he is really important. The question is good, God, Walt Von Hart. I mean, this is such a good position, Vizm was in.

Could Walt Vonneard have won this sprint? Probably. You know, there's a good chance. But there, Vizma is sitting there picking between, well, which of our riders that is likely to win is giving us a greater percentage chance to win. And going with that rider, this gives Brennan four wins. at this welta. Van Arta is two. So that's six total for the team through 15. We have 16 stages, 15 with the stage winner. So that's 40% of the stages have been won by Visma. If you try to

map out like, well, how many can they win here? They probably win tomorrow. So give them seven. They could win stage 21. Are we sure they don't win the time trial at this rate? But let's say they win 17 and stage 21. They have eight wins. I would give them 40%. of stage wins at this Walta. That is extremely impressive. And that's even without, they don't even have their A-T, like this is their B plan.

They don't even have their top G-C rider. They came to this race to prepare for worlds. Van Ard's getting over like a near-fatal sepsis. So not bad considering that. Yeah, and especially, Spencer, I think they will definitely try to win a seventh for sure. Vizma in their history, they have never won more than six stages

in the ground tour. So a record statistic can be broken, which they will try. And I think it's very realistic to think. Tomorrow we could be there already. Tomorrow we could be at seven stages. And then stage 21, I think we just looked at the profile. I think it's definitely within reach for Farnart.

And maybe even also Matthew Brennan. I'm going to predict that tomorrow is Brennan and stage 21 is Van Art. So eight stages. I agree with you, by the way. I think Brandon's got tomorrow. I think stage 21, perfect for Van Art. At this point, I'm just, I'm already like crafting my newsletter for while Van Art winning the world championships.

It's in the books. Put it down. No one can be. Nothing bad, Johan. The misfortune never befalls this. man it's he's got it it's gonna happen you know what's funny you were saying the other day it's not the best we've ever seen him because he won a time trial a mountain stage and time trial at the same tour which is really impressive right but we spent spent the rest day rewatching

old walt vannart wins he's almost more he maybe he doesn't have like the raw ability to do whatever he wants he's a much more focused rider now he threw away a lot of races back then yeah 20 20 21 he's much more of a focused strength now. Like, we'll see how the rest of the season plays out. But yeah, I don't, I, obviously he did great, amazing things back then. There was a lot of times where you're like, what are you doing? Wow. Like, just maybe chase down Al-Filippe and win that world championships.

But he, he definitely does things now better than he did back then, even though maybe he doesn't have the ability to win a time trial. We don't fully understand why riders was their ability to win time trials, but it happens, especially with injuries and time off. But we also should mention. If you look at, if you look at Vizva, for example, Spencer, that's also impressive, you know, just off the top of my head. I want to say they have tried with a plan to win the stage eight times,

like eight stages. They won six of them. And then one was won by Brian Kakart. And then another one was won by Tronchon, the French. guy. Oh, yes. Yeah. So they, out of the eight times they tried, they want six. That's very, very seldom in cycling that happens. You know, many times you have a great plan, you have a great team and you just don't win. That's usually, I mean, usually the case.

Usually that's the case. Yeah. Yeah, that's the norm. I mean, they could have an eight out of ten record at the end of this welta. They're also down to riders, like two important riders, Ben Tulett and Christoph, Lepp. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to control with six riders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to control with six riders. That's also impressive. By the way, you know, hats off to Stephen Kreuzweig. This guy has been riding on the front for so every single stage. I mean, it's like it's crazy, crazy, crazy. And I don't know if you, if you notice they, it's his last year. It's his last race in his career, actually. He retires. So they gave him a special, a special bike. He rides with a different bike than the rest

the team as an homage to his career. But man, he's up there until the very, very, very end of his racing career. Today he gave an interview and he said, you know, I'm feeling good, you know, and I told the team that they are allowed to squeeze every single drop out of the lemon I am. I heard that. That's a pretty impressive, that's a pretty impressive statement. Yeah, he's an interesting writer too because he represents, Visma's very good at this. They get guys that were GC riders in another life.

And then you think of like Woco Calderman, Stephen Croyzoic, these were guys knocking on the door of Grant Tour wins 10 years ago. And then now they're domestices for Visma. I don't quite know how they convince them to take on these roles, but they're very good at it. And I kind of think, I know there's a big talk at the move of there was a lot of talk about during the tour. It's like, you know, Pagacha's just racing to L.A. Then he's going to retire right after the Olympics. Oops, nope, he renewed until 2032. He's probably going to be racing for a long time.

But a lot of these GC guys, they just find, or like stars just find new roles and they just keep racing. This guy was on Bravo Bank. He was a round of a long time. He was on Robobank, the Robobank professional team in 2010 already, so 16 years ago. What was Tate Pagacca doing in 2010? He would have been. 10 years old or something a toddler a toddler no he was not a teenager yet it's pretty crazy right and then kroyzerk is a key rider riding against that guy yeah i mean he was on robobank and

then he lived through the the terrible terrible like belkin the whole belkin blanco years yeah the whole of his career on the same team that's pretty pretty cool yeah he won the 2014 race of Norway. I mean, the different stuff he's done is incredible. I mean, should have won the 2016. Let's not forget. Third in the tour, right? Third in the tour to France.

In 2019. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a funky tour. So it was Bernal, Thomas,

Croyzwick, Emmanuel Bookman. Wow. Who is, by the way, if I'm, he's in this race, no? He's still racing. I'm telling you all these guys.

Is he not in the Vuelter? I'm pretty sure he's in this. Welta. Let's look. I think he's in the Volta. These guys never, never go away. He is racing the Volta for co-fittes. That's unbelievable. Yeah.

That's not how I have not seen him. Yeah. He's got in an invisibility cloak. You can't see him. I was so high on this guy after 2019. If I was a team manager, I would have been, you know, buyout clause. No number too high. Contract, no number too high.

Like I would have been all in on Bookman. I thought he was, I thought he's the next big thing. But on, on Bookman, on Coffetus, Vizma is controlling these stages in very, very well. They do have a lot of help from Cofitus. Coffitis was helping them today. Was there room for them to be aggrieved on stage 15 when cofittes helped Visma control the break and then Vizma attacked and had their rider go away and went from the breakaway? Is there an understanding there that you're not supposed to do that?

That's the first thing I hear about it. You know, initially you go for the common goal. You try to bring the break back. And then what was Wal-Vinartu attacked, right? So I don't know. I mean, I'm a bit surprised that you told me that there are people not being happy about that and saying that you don't do that stuff. No, I don't.

If they were upset, fine. They should have sent somebody with Von der Kvents. Art, right? Yeah, like you should know that it's a very, I should say it's an unusual situation. You would rarely have two teams working to pull the breakaway back for sprint and then one of them even has the ability or the option to attack up to the breakaway. Yeah. You got to know that that could happen, right?

Well, especially with, especially with, with Von Art and Brennan as two potential stage winners, you know, Kofides wants a bunch sprint with Kukhar, right? Vismo wants a bunch with Brennan, but they also have an art. If he can go in a break, he'll do it. So I don't understand why there's so much, such an upset about this.

I think they did the right thing. And they're entitled to do it. I mean, you know, there's nothing that says that if you work together with two teams and then all of a sudden there's an opportunity to catch up to the break, just go for it. Yeah.

not a contractor signing at the start of the stage that says we agree to do this and not attack each other. It also shows you like I was about to say like, you know, co-fittish should have had a shadow on Van Art. I mean like if he moves, you move. But I think what happened on that stage is it was so hard gone like line to line. There was no tactical no chicanery there. Like just nobody could, you know, if you could go with him, you went with him. And you probably were at the limit when he attacked. Well, there was one rider with him, right? Was it not Thibonais who went with him? Well, Romero, what's his name?

Romalia. Romale started it. So he starts the move, Van Archer's following him. So he makes it, and then Tebow Nes, yeah, follows him as well. Okay. Tebow Nays is one of the strongest guys in this race. You know, like not everybody can just bridge that gap like Tebow Nays can. Yeah.

By the way, I don't know if he paid for that effort or not, but I think, I guess he he's sick. Today he finished 31 minutes behind Thibon. Second to last finisher. Yeah. I think he must be sick. Otherwise, he must be sick. Interesting. Got sick on the rest day. That can happen. You stop moving. Like your body gets a chance to take a take like take stock of where it is and that doesn't feel good and you get sick. Anyway, Spencer, quickly back to back to the stage of Matthew Brennan, you know, I mean, If you look, nothing much was going on in this stage, you know, those five riders, then Visma and Kofidis and a little bit, a little bit Red Bull at some point.

But, you know, if you have the fastest rider in the bunch, like Matthew Brennan, it's showing that he's the fastest. Initially, you know, the first few stages we said, okay, you know, he's fast, but it's in hard finishes. Now it's flat finishes. He's also proven that he has the biggest speed. And then you have the strongest lead-out guy with Walt Bonnard. It can't go wrong, you know? It can't go wrong.

Walt Vonard literally dropped off Matthew Brennan with 150 meters to go. What a luxury. What a luxury. And then, you know, yeah. Yeah, this couldn't go wrong for Visma. And also, you can also see that, you know, at this point in the Vuelta, there is not much strength left in any team or any other sprinter. You know, it's basically whoever has the legs.

Now, there's one speed, you know, there's one speed. There's nobody anymore who can attack at the end or accelerate. And with that kind of lead out of fun art, Brandon just had to come out of the wheel and, you know, make it to the finish. Here's a question for you. Should there be more sprinters at this race? Is this a huge missed opportunity? Like Jonathan.

John of the Milan is probably fine on these stages. He could probably win this stage. Well, right now there has been six bunch prints, right? That might be more than any grand tour we've had this year. Yeah. Yeah, and tomorrow was seventh. So, yeah. Potentially eight when it's all said and done.

Yeah, I don't think the last day will be a bunch print. It will be a reduced group. But, but yeah, I mean, there are grand tours, like the Tour de France, for example, or even the Giro, that there are no seven stages that finish in a bunch sprint. Yeah.

So big opportunity. Look, I mean, a guy like, Vito Brat, you know, Vito Brat, he's a writer, you've probably never heard of him. I've never heard of him. You know, he's fast, but he's not a tough sprint. He gets third in a bunch sprint in, in the Vuelta. You know, that's not easy to do.

No. No. I mean, we should say he did get second. I'd never heard of him. I had to go back and look at results. He did get second at a stage of Perrinis this year, which is an extremely high level hard race. So clearly he's good. It just shows you also how many good Belgian riders that are out there.

It's like a name generator machine. Vito Brat on Lotto Intermerchet. It's like, what? This is a TV show. I've never heard of this guy. Where is he coming from? But there's just an endless supply of very good. Belgian riders at can podium at Grand Tours. But you know, you look at the Giro, I think there's

four stages that Jonathan Milan had a chance at. One, two, three, four, you know, he could have had seven at this Valta. You just, it shows you when don't, you really have to examine these courses carefully because you look at it and you think, wow, there's no sprint stages, but you really examine it and there's, it's a different course than you think. I mean, even Yonis said the tour was a lot different than they thought it was going to be and they kind of prepared incorrectly because of that. Kind of odd to me he would say that. But I've been shocked at how sprint heavy this,

this welta is. And the fact, I kind of like it personally, that we have this little, like, it's like a nap section. It's like, you can take a nap. You can not, you know, it's like whatever. You don't really have to pay attention to these stages. We'll get to the important stuff later in the week. I kind of like it. It's like a pallet resetter for the final weekend.

But it is a lot of sprint stages. And it just makes me think, hmm, think how important was. stage wins are. Grand Tours, there's a lot of good sprinters out there who could be competing for this, and it feels like Visma kind of outsmarted everybody by doing this, bringing this type of team. Should we take a quick break? And then I have some questions for you. Everybody, this episode is brought to by Ultra Pouches with the Vuelta in its third week. Let's take a little time to talk about our presenting sponsor that made this all possible Ultra Pouches. If you're someone who needs a coffee every couple hours just to feel normal, which I have during this WELTA,

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Use code the move for 15% off. And when they ask where you heard about them, tell them we sent you. it does really help the show. Are you, Johan, we are back. Just a few questions for you. First of all, I forgot to cover it in the first part. Red Bull broke the stage up question mark. UNOX was caught out.

Magnus Corps had to chase back on, still finish his fifth, shows you the type of sprint it was. He's not a guy you would imagine would finish fifth in a bunch sprint. But why did Red Bull do that? Or were they just trying to stay ahead of splits and cause splits by doing so? Yeah, I think, I mean, yeah,

I think it's the second option. Spencer, you know, it was open. You know, you could see, I mean, the images were impressive. I mean, if you saw when they were riding through these like swamps, it was all open and windy. I think they did it just to make sure that they were at the front in case something happened. Nobody got caught out from G.C. And, okay, Magnus Cort got surprised, but, you know, then he came back. I think they went to the front basically

out of precaution to make sure that they were in the front. No other team actually came to help, right, to continue that effort. And there was just whatever was it, 30 guys dropped and then the rest of the peloton was there. So I don't think there was any intention to split the peloton behind that action of repel. Interesting.

I mean, it does show you. It's like the fear of crosswinds can create crosswind problems. Like just people wanting to stay ahead of crosswind splits, cause crosswind splits, meaning you have to be even more vigilant, stay at the front. I don't, we might see some crosswinds tomorrow.

We'll get to that in the preview. But, you know, nobody was caught out, but somebody could have been caught out. You know, you got to be really careful for these GC riders. Like,

that could decide the race, especially with 20K to go. You know, a group could, a motivated group could hold. you off. You could lose one or two to three minutes quite, quite quickly in a split like that. In the sprint, I noticed, Wow, Vanar, you don't see this very often, pulled off from his leadout duties, just kept sprinting as hard as he could, finish the sixth. Why is that?

Yeah, I think, I think it's also out of precaution, Spencer. You know, he, he keeps sprinting. The second guy in the point of jersey is Matthew Brennan. There is still. There is still, I don't know, I think he has a 90-point lead, no, or something like that. But he kind of has to do it because if Matthew Brandon wins, I think tomorrow's a 50-point stage. Yeah. So mathematically, he's not sure yet to win green, although I do think, however, that Matthew Brandon would not contest sprinting to get Wal-Von-Art out of the green jersey. but you know if something goes wrong and walt van art leads out and doesn't score points which

to me it seems like he's going to get that automatically Walt van art is now in a position where he when he leads out matthew brennan and keeps just doesn't completely stop he's still top 10 which is you know which is what he needs but i think it's out of precaution he for the moment he needs those points because mathematically he's not he's not sure yet so brent running gets 30 today, Van Art gets 15th. Let's say Van Art sat up. Okay. Then let's say he sat up today.

Let's say he sits up tomorrow and Brennan wins. It'd be a 28 point difference, you know? Like it would still be in play. Then let's say Brennan wins on the final day. Van Art sits up. He's lost to Jersey. So yeah. Yeah, it was, I did notice that as well.

I think it's just to make sure that mathematically he's safe. You know, even if. Brennan wins those three stages, like today, tomorrow, and then on the last day, and Vonhard doesn't score points. He will score points in the intermediate sprits. Yes. And there, I'm pretty sure that Brennan will not contest those sprints. So, but I think it's just to make sure that mathematically he has the jersey.

I mean, I love Matthew Brennan. I think he's the start. He's the future of the sport. But like stage 19, I don't think Matthew Brennan. that's big boy intermediate sprint that's going to take everything Venhard has to get over those times

and that's just not I don't think that's something Brennan has quite yet Spencer it's maybe also you know the reason why he does it today is basically because maybe he doesn't want to go in that breakaway you know and save everything for well yeah I think it's like an easy 15 points

he got today yeah it's like ride hard for 10 more seconds and you get 15 points which is what you'll get by busting your butt to get over four mountains to get 16 points in a couple days. So it is smart that he did that. No notes. Well,

Viner knows what he's doing. So Matthew Brennan, 21 years old, now has four stages in his first grand tour. Who's the last rider to win four stages in their first grand tour? Is the first part of the question. Yeah, I looked this up,

Spencer, and it did happen. The last guy to do this was in 2017, Giro d'Italia. in his first participation in a ground tour was Fernando Gaviria. Won four stages in his first ever grand tour at 23 years old. Machu Brands 21. So looking pretty good.

Well, I don't know if that is looking good. That's not the best. Then what did like Gaviria only went on to perform worse after that, I think. Well, he also won, he also won two stages in the tour of France, by the way. Was that the same? Did he only ever win two stages at the tour? Two stages, yeah. Two stages in the tour, yeah. That's crazy to think about. And he never won. Was that in 2017 when he won two stages? I think it's 2019. I'm guessing. I'm not sure. I'm not sure anymore.

Yeah, you might be right, actually. So did he go to the tour in 2017? No, he went in 2018. No, obviously not. No. 2018 is when he won two stages. Yeah, he went two. stages in 2000 yeah he won another two stages in another stage in the Giro of 2019 and that's the last time you won a grand tour stage yeah that's nuts well Spencer listen okay we can say whatever we want but if you finish your career any writer who has won seven stages in ground tours 95% of the peloton doesn't have that okay but we're grading on a we're grading on a we're grading on a curve here. Let's say if you finish your career with fewer than double the amount of wins you

get in your first ever grand tour, safe to say you probably could have accomplished a little bit more had you dedicated yourself. For sure. Listen, I mean, for sure, Gavidia, in the early years, was incredible. Everybody thought, okay, this is the new dominator of all the sprints. And it didn't last very long. So obviously, you know, he was, he was extremely good early on. And I don't know what happened. Somebody would say, I mean, I think people would say it's probably, I mean, there's been a lot of, you know, stories out there that he's not very professional or he wasn't very professional at some points in his career. So I think that's probably the main reason why his career didn't succeed better than the way it's promised at the beginning of the season,

at the beginning of his career. The funny thing about that is, I mean, I can totally see that. It kind of makes sense. But then you're like, was he not professional in 2017 and 2018? Like, did it deteriorate? I always have more questions when I hear that. Like, was he professional for the first year and then he wasn't? Yeah. Well, I don't think so.

I think he was just, he just came. He was a super talent, a super talent. You know, I was also, I think he was world champion on the track in the Omium early on. Very complete rider, you know, he could. He could sprint, he could do short time trials, he could do the points race and stuff like that. He was very, very talented. He actually, before he turned pro, I think 2000, I don't remember when it was 2016 or something.

He beat, he was not on a World Tour team yet. And he beat Cavendish in those sprints in Argentina. was it tour the San Juan or something? Yeah. Yeah. He came out of nowhere and he beat Cavendish

in sprints. So I think I think the problem with Gavidia is that he was extremely talented, very young, and then, you know, just relied on his talent

way too much and didn't put the work in where as cycling has progressed and cycling has evolved. Yeah. I mean, that shows, And like it makes you appreciate Cavendish more.

Like think of like, think how long Cavendish's win window was. And this guy's win window was three seasons, two seasons, really. I mean, that is like, yeah, that's, I don't know. Maybe you'll have a comeback.

Is he at this race? Gaviria? No, no, no. No, Kachera is not here. They're not here. I guess he did the Tour de France. He did the Tour de France, yeah. Did he get a top 10 finish of the tour?

It's not nothing. But, man, yeah, Cairoal, that is weird. They're not here. I guess there's too many Spanish teams for. No, it's, it's, it's a rolling like that. So there's four, I mean, until this year, there's four pro teams. It's, you know, Cajarral, Escaltel, Burgos, and Kern Farma. And so it's, it's one year, yes, one year, no.

But the next year, it won't be like that because Kern Farmer is going away. Yes. And and Huscal Del still needs to move up because they're not top 30 right now. Oh, yeah. But they could overtake DSM for the 30th spot. That's a debate.

That's a debate that is not clear. Is that does the top 30 apply for teams who have a World Tool license? As far as, I mean, today I heard on on on one I think it was on Dutch Eurosport that that one year license they got

it only has to do with their financials not with the sporting criteria so if their financials get an order they would automatically get year two and year three that's what they said I don't know if that's the rules stipulate if a world tour team is outside the top

30 do they do they still get an invite? Well, yeah, we don't know. We don't know. It doesn't really matter, Spencer. You know, I mean, you know, in those cases, the UCI just makes up the rules and the conditions on the go, you know. I would say this is one area where I would say the UCI is off the hook for not having thought of this. Because who would ever imagine that would happen?

Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy that that could happen, that a World Tour team could be out to the top. 30. It's unusual for them to be outside the top 20. Top 30 is mind-boggling. So Gavirio won four stages in the 2017 Giro, but he was 23 years old at the time. Who's the last writer to win four stages at the age of 21 or younger in a grand tour? Yeah. It has happened. I also looked it up. I don't know if I have it here in front of me. I don't, but it has happened twice. But it was in the 1930s.

One rider won four stages in the Tour de France when he was 20 years old. And then another rider won four stages in the Giro when he was 21, but just a little bit younger than Matthew Brennan. But so in modern cycling post-World War II, it hasn't happened. So it's pretty impressive. So essentially it's never happened. It did happen. It did happen.

Not really the same sport, though, you know? Well, yeah, that's not their fault, right? It's not their fault. I know. I find it unhelpful in sports, though. And, you know, it's just like the Boston Celtics won 55 NBA championships. Like, yeah, there's four teams in the NBA. You know, like it's a lot easier.

So I have the names here. So, yeah. And the Tour de France, 1934, René Vieto won four stages, and he was 21 years, 20 years old. Then 1936 in the Vuelta, Vicente Carratero, Spanish writer, won four stages. And now the third one is Matthew Brennan in the Valta. So it happened three times in history. So he's the first guy post-war to do it. It's not really the same sport.

Before being completely honest, yeah. Like, you know, you could be, you could be a four-year-old wake up in 1904 and win the Tour de France. You know, there just wasn't the level of, there just was not a great pool of competition. Yeah, but still, Spencer, we have to have, I mean, like, when you see those images from like, you know, the 1903 Tour de France, the first Tour de France ever, man, the Tour de France was six stages. Six stages of four or five hundred kilometers. They basically rode around France like this. Bring it back. That's what we want.

Fewer stages, longer. They invented gravel cycling. You are just describing gravel events right now. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. The Tour de France is the first gravel race. Before we go on to a super interesting topic, actually, did you want to talk about Orlis Olar?

Yes. Yes. Today I noticed something. I don't know if you noticed something. about or Luis O'Lar, which I had to check it, but saw something very strange. Do you know what I'm talking about?

No, unless you're talking about him being a mountain domestic now. I don't know. No, no, no. It's the first time I have ever seen a writer during a grand tour, change. So he was Venezuelan champion, right? Yeah. Today he wrote in a normal movie star.

Yeah, what is the deal with that? Well, the Venezuela championships were just now the 6th of September. And he didn't participate. So in the middle of the Guelta, he lost his, I mean, not lost, I mean, he can't wear the jersey anymore. So he had to change to the normal movie star jersey. Interesting. You know what?

In theory, that could have happened at the Giro to the American national champion until just recently because the national championships were during the Giro to tell you. Yeah. And so probably a good sign you should change your national championship date. If it's during what I guess I don't know. It's just packed. The weeks are packed there. They can't fit it in.

I don't know about this. I don't know if it has to do with the climate or I don't know. I mean, there's also not that many riders from Venezuela riding in the European calendar. So, I mean, Oryso-Lod has been. I think five or six times a national champion time trial and three or four times already on the road so I don't think he cares that much.

Who's the best Venezuelan rider ever? Was it wait, what was his name again? There was a small climber. He was third in the Giro. I forgot his name now. Jose Rujano. Jose Rujano.

What year was that? Let me check. Ruchano. I mean, he was the guy who was the most present at Jose Rujano. He was, right, let's see. Who is the Costa Rican cyclist? Do you remember this guy? Yeah.

He was turned into Jiro in 2005. 2005, third in the zero. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Costa Rican writer, who was that again? Andre Amador.

Andre Amador. He was on Movistar also. Yeah. Yeah. So last topic before we go to the stage preview. So I was at dinner last night, someone was about to go to the, I'd never heard of this event before. It's like the World Athletic Ultimate Championships, which is different than the World Athletic

Championships, which is like the UCI Championships, where. let's be honest, it's a bunch of bullshit so the government body can make a lot of money. But you go and you race for your team, for your national team. But this World Athletic Ultimate Championships, it's like an invite only skinny version of that. So they are just inviting like the best runners. So it shrinks the event instead of being like two weeks long. It's just a few days long. It's best on best.

And we got into debate of they're like, well, there's no point in any cycling season where the best riders race the best riders. You'd kind of say the Tour de France, but Matthew Vanderpals ruining that. He doesn't really care about the Tour of France. He's not really trying, he's not putting his whole heart into it. So maybe the world championships, but then you have guys that are hurt because it's the end of the year. And it made me think about, you know, we saw this collective cycling group thing launched the other day.

And but one of the things in the article about the collective cycling group is they want to increase the occasions on which, which the best riders compete, compete against the best riders. One way to do this is to make the teams in the collective cycling groups send their best riders to the Giorita Talia as a way to force the hand of ASO to like play ball with him. Is this going to work, Johan? I mean, I kind of like the idea, but how does ASO not just crush this? It has to, it has to, it's going to be difficult. I think this union is going to happen and you have to start somewhere, right?

The thing is, the problem is that the Tour de France is so big and so much bigger than any other event. If you look at the return on investment, the viewership, Tour de France compared to other events, I would say it's probably 70% of the whole calendar is just the tour of the France, the three weeks in July. And then 30% is the rest of the calendar. So it's not easy to kind of fight against that,

because have in mind that teams that are funded by commercial sponsors are in a very weak position because their sponsors want and need the maximum return investment, which is three weeks in July. teams who are funded by private investors, wealthy people, governments, you know, not without too much of a commercial expectation as a return on their investment are in a better position to do this. So, I mean, it depends.

It depends how many of those teams will do this. I think it's worth trying. It's been, you know, people have tried before many times. But I think there's going to be, it's going to happen. It's going to happen at some point where the teams are united and they can start to apply pressure on ASO. This is completely, this is just, you know, you just need to destabilize ASO. UCI is not even an issue here for this kind of initiative.

You can, you know, if the teams are strong enough and united enough, you could do this without the UCI. ASO is the issue. And then what we have seen historically is that, you know, ASO and UCI are often also not agreeing on a lot of points. But whenever there's an initiative where the teams come into the play and they are looking to strengthen their position, then UCI and ASO historically have always joint forces.

applied pressure, threatening, trying to sabotage it and with real threats. I've seen letters when I was a team manager and I've seen threatening letters not very recently from the UCI towards the team saying, hey, you know what if you keep doing this, we have the power to mess with your license or we have the power. to make it difficult for you. I think something like this, like the World Athletics Ultimate Championships, could be something that this cycling collective,

what's it called? Cycling Collective? It's called Cycling. Sorry, collective cycling group. Okay. It's something they should look at. I just actually checked that, you know, this Ultimate Championships,

it actually is under the world athletics. So it's not a... So like if the UCI launched their own commercial, which probably they were smart, they probably would do that, right? They used like the UCI started launching good races. They're never going to do that, Spencer. They're never going to do that.

They have the world championships. They are, I mean, I don't know. But it's a little different too, because the world championships and running aren't every year. So, yeah, this is a way to like, make it every year basically without the hassle of a regular world championships yeah yeah something to look at i think i think it could be could be a good idea for this is very vague but they just say in return for signing up as a member each team will hand over exclusive license to its commercial

rights collective sponsorship race data behind the scenes footage for an equity estimated at between five and eight percent depending on how many teams become shareholders very very very vague about how you would ever see any money from this. But let's just assume it's the same. Spencer, I've heard the story already 20 years ago. It's been always the same and nothing has happened. I personally think that now considering the people who are driving this project, it will happen.

So tell me, but what's it? Like, what does it look like? What's the deliverable look like? Well, I mean, it's, there's, there's a, there's a little. lot of things, but I think first and foremost, which is, which is mind-blowing, actually, that is that there is no entity in which the teams are privately and commercially represented to do business together. That's the first, I mean, and this, this has started many, many years ago already. There was, you know, there's always been a teams union, which is called

the AIGCP, which is useless because they're completely, you know, under the influence of the UCI. And then back in the days, there was an initiative of, by the way, my ex-boss from San Manuel Lossai started this. It was called IPCT. It was called International Professional Cycling Teams. It was basically the same union without the French, because the French are always with ASO, but all the other teams were in a corporation. And the idea was to try to do business together. like you know come with common interest um i've been in many of those meetings in the past and the idea was good but nothing came ever from it uh little little initiatives here and there but nothing worth really nothing with that that move move the needle into the right direction i mean

what's to stop ASO from killing this with one phone call like they could just call uno x and say if you join this you're never coming to the tour again and then Why would ASO risk that? Sorry, why would it? For the moment, they can't do that with, you know, X because they're in the world tour. But they'd say by joining this year, then voiding your world tour license, right? What do you mean? Like, you know, you're joining a group that is at odds with us.

So we're stripping you of your world tour license because you've now voided your contract with us. I'd imagine is what they try to say. They don't have, they don't have a contract with ASO. How it's a ASO needs the ASO needs to accept all the world tour teams and they will accept the first three teams of the pro teams so let's I mean this is an aggressive posturing send your best riders to the Gero and boycott the tour essentially and so if that happened what's to stop them from leaving the UCI and saying yeah but you know what Spencer I've and that's this is what I've always said in the past you know because I've been in

many of those meetings. It was all, you know, ASO, ASO, ASO, no, let's make sure that we don't need to upset them. There's one thing that the teams forget. And it's true, ASO has a lot of power, most power in cycling. There's one thing that people forget. You know, teams sign contract, so you sign a deal with ASO that you're going to participate. They give you 50, 60,000 euros, which has a starting fee,

which is crazy. It hasn't changed in the last 25 years. And then, you know, if teams would boycot or would not send their best riders, what the teams don't seem to understand is that ASO also has sponsors and contracts with sponsors, in which I am sure there are also stipulations that the best riders and the best teams have to be there. You know, so if the best teams are not there, then the sponsors of ASO might get upset. You know, so that's something that the teams need to have in mind. Yeah, but they can feel pain a lot longer than the teams can.

Of course. That's always the same. It's always the same thing. You know, the teams can try this one year, right? They can't do it two or three years. And that's where ASO or the UCI will always win. They have time and resources on their side. And this is the same game everywhere, right?

I already said, Spencer, in a few podcasts, I mean, like a few months ago, when we were talking about this one cycling idea and then the rumored interest of Saudi. It's going to take somebody buying ASO to change this. So ultimately, and it's still, it's still. a family run business, but it's going to get sold at some point. Well, the FIFA sale just went so well, so I'm sure it's going to go really well, right? I don't know, but what happened with the FIFA? FIFA tried, Infantino tried to privatize FIFA.

FIFA was like now he might go to prison for it. So I think that probably spooked some people. Yeah, but FIFA is not ASO. FIFA is the international federation. A.U.O. is a private company, which. Yeah, but which it's so enmeshed. So everything can be sold. Everything can be sold, Spencer.

It's ultimately going to happen. So amassed in French life in politics. And you think Marine Le Pen when she's prime minister is going to let that thing get sold? I don't think so. I don't think, I don't think Marine Le Pen cares too much about the through the France. I think it would be a huge scandal in France if the Tour de France sold. Because it's all they, it's, it projects exactly the image that someone like Marine Le Pen would want to be projected throughout the world.

It's a huge piece of power for them. No, Spencer. I think you're, you know, ASO is Amory Sport Organization. So it's a family, right? It's a private business. What if another company, another, whatever, another French company buys it. What if another French company buys ASO? Probably could happen.

But if anyone whiffs, Yon, if anyone whiffs foreign involvement, all it takes is for the French to say, all right, you pay us for the police resources. And then you think the tour would be financially viable then? Because they get a lot for free. If it's another French company who buys ASO, what's the problem? I mean, who is this French company? Who backs it? Well, it could be. Exactly.

You're taking the words out of him out. But it could be a French company owned by a holding company, which is not French. The lever that the government has is ASO gets a sweetheart deal on this. And it's not clear that it would apply to anyone that's not ASO. Like, they get a lot of stuff for free. I don't even know if like the tour, I dinner with this guy who tried to buy the tour. And it's not even clear to me that it's like viable as a financial product without the current setup. because they go they get so much for free and then he had a good point he said if ASO had debt you would have a lever to come in like you're talking about with the teams could say hey your sponsors aren't going to remove but ASO doesn't have a lot of debt so it's hard to get them to do anything you don't want like they don't want to do okay yeah but I think companies can be sold and bought why would ASO decide to sell after not selling for so long um

Right now, the person who is making the calls and the decisions is, I forgot her name now, but it's the widow of Philipp Amori. She's probably in her 80s now. So I don't know what happens when she gets in her 90s or when she passes away. So she was born in 1940. So she's 86. So she could be running for the Senate in the U.S. right now. She's in the prime of her life. It's going to be four decades before she is ready to retire.

But yeah, I do think that is probably the flashpoint. Something could happen then. Yeah. I don't know. I kind of like the idea. I feel like I've read this article 15 times. Like I'm curious to see what happens. If they can get this over the line.

it's an artist and it's an article. These guys from Escape, what is it called, Escape Collective or something? Yeah. They don't have the details of all the ins and outs of this new structure. They know a little bit and then they're just, you know, guessing with the information they have available. I'm sure there's more to it than what the article says.

Why are we reading this article? Like, did someone leak, did someone inside the collective leak this? I don't know. No idea. That's, yeah, that's the thing I'm a little frustrated about. Well, you know, I've always been told, Spencer, if you want to keep something secret or confidential, there's the best way. The only way to keep it like that is not don't tell anybody. You know, if there's two or three people who know about it, it's very likely it's not going to remain a secret. That is a good point.

Once the third person is involved, it's not a secret any longer. I mean, frankly, once a second person. And there are people, there are people part of this initiative and this project who are extremely famous historically for leaking information on purpose. I think you know what I'm talking. There's a lot of the hints in this article, actually. If you read this article, you can kind of tell where the leak is coming from. But we'll be, let's take a quick break. Then we'll talk about stage 17, which will be a quick preview of a simple stage.

We'll be right back. All right, Johan, we are back previewing tomorrow's stage 17. This is part of our, I'm just calling it the nap block. You can take naps during these stages, 185 kilometers through. It's kind of a goofy stage, to be honest with you. It starts outside of Sevilla, Seville, Seville. I feel like we call it Seville in the U.S. And then it's called Seville, Seville.

And it does a big loop through the countryside, the hot countryside, and then comes back and finishes in town. no categorized climbs, sprint point and bonus seconds, 20K from the finish, kind of interesting that they did that. I have to think this is a bunch sprint. How do you think this plays out?

And I'll tell you the odds right now. Stage 17, Fanduel, Matthew Bennett, minus 1, minus 195, Brian Gaggart plus 650, Jordi Mayas plus 750, Woutvinard plus 1100, Magnus Court plus 1,600, Alberto Dionese,

who we just learned was in the race today, plus 3,300. Who do you think, wins this stage tomorrow yeah i think it's bunch print spencer for sure um i can't imagine anybody even even guys like like like cocar and the coffides and it's their last opportunity you know it's the last opportunity uh even even red bull with jordy meos although of course they're focused on primos but you know they could they could put a few guys there it's going to be bunch print again and uh i think we're seeing a win of

Matthew Brennan again stage win number five tomorrow for Matthew Brennan and Vizma breaking their historic record of seven victories in a grand tour for the moment in six for them. What's the, I mean, I guess it'd be Freddie Martin's team. What's the record for most wins by a team in the Volta? It has to be Flandriano from Freddie Martens, 13 stage wins. I don't think anybody has ever done better than this. In any grant tour, by the way, in any grand tour. And if you just think about recent years, you'd think, well,

UAE won six and a few grant tours because Pagaccio won six stages. I mean, what did UAE win last year's both? They won a lot of stages here. Let's check. No, not that many. Not that many. Three, four, maybe? They won one, one, two, three, four, five, six, six.

six so iuso wins they win the team time trial j vine wins the next day i use so wins that after that j vine wins stage 10 i use so win stage 12 there's a non winner in that one as well i'meda wins the day after that so it gives them six total not bad not bad at all yeah also also speaking of wanna uso just i'm just using him as an example think how much we heard about the wanna uso suck all we heard about, right, for months. They're costing so much money to switch teams. Matthew, Brandon, and Vizma, they moved in silence on this. Did anyone, was there any fight for his signature?

And now Vizma's like, hey, guess what? We got the best versatile young rider in the sport. It's just, there was no drama about it. They just got, they just made it happen. Pretty impressive. I don't think anybody was fighting for him. No, he, uh, They just signed him based on, you know, his results in the 123 and whatever.

Was it juniors maybe? Well, probably juniors. Probably juniors. Yeah. And yeah, he was on the Devo team, right, for Visma? Yeah. And then they promoted him early to the World Tour. I don't think they had been money.

But I think the most important was that Brennan really wanted to go to Visma. I know they had invited him to their headquarters in the Netherlands. Was it for some testing or whatever? And then he took a, you know, a guide to tour and the service course. And he said, okay, wow. Hi, this is what I want to be. He was sold. And lesson to be learned there.

I mean, during that time, the narrative was Vizma's falling behind. They're not spending money in the transfer market. They're getting rid of good guys, not signing good guys. meanwhile they're not spending the money that these teams like little trek are and they're getting better talents when it's all said and done i mean that is now they have a guy who's apparently unbeatable and grand tour bunch sprints can also climb mountains can also win classics could win monuments as soon as next year not a bad pickup like by that team pretty pretty good pretty impressive i also think he's going to win tomorrow do you think there's any splits in the cross wins any gc action or no no gc at all mean either. What do we see for the points? Do is the breakaway take the point sprint? And then we see another Van Art like fifth or sixth, Brendan first. It keeps it close. That could be the case. I think it's the easiest thing is to let a break go four or five riders and then just pick up whatever's left there from the points. And the finish points tomorrow are really valuable. So it's like

50, 30, 20, 18, 16, 14. So you can pick up if Venart was four. he's getting almost as many points as the intermediate sprint point. So yeah, I think he'll be sprinting as well, just like today. Anything else, he's going to lead it out and keep going. I know. I mean, he might get second. I mean, today I did think. I was like, I don't know if anyone's going to come around him except Brennan.

He was flying on that lead up. Yeah, he was really strong. He's super strong. Yeah. I think we've covered everything, Spencer. Let's see what the moral brings. Hopefully it's hopefully people can get their naps in. and then we recharge for the Thursday time trial.

I'm quite excited for that time trial. It's going to be really, really good. But see you soon. See you tomorrow, Johan. And we'll be talking about the stage and previewing the TT tomorrow.