THEMOVE - Can Anyone Beat Mathieu van der Poel? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down the racing action at the traditional pre-Flanders test run, E3 Saxo Classic, where Mathieu van der Poel laid down a massive marker prior to his biggest spring targets, as well as getting into the thrilling Primož Roglič/Juan Ayuso GC battle at the Volta Catalunya. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access: https://access.wedu.team BuyCycle: Head to https://www.buycycle.com/wedu and use code WEDU2025 for an exclusive offer for WEDU listeners! Ridge Wallet: Right now, Ridge is having their once-a-year Anniversary Sale. Get up to 40% Off at https://www.Ridge.com/THEMOVE. Just head to https://www.Ridge.com/THEMOVE to see their biggest sale of the year! After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. PLEASE support our show and tell them our show sent you. Caldera Labs: Skincare doesn’t have to be complicated—but it should be good. Upgrade your routine with Caldera Lab and see the difference for yourself. Go to https://www.CalderaLab.com/THEMOVE and use THEMOVE at checkout for 15% off your first order. Troscriptions: There’s a completely new way to optimize your health. Give it a try at https://www.troscriptions.com/THEMOVE or enter THEMOVE at checkout for 10% off your first order.    

E3 is a really hard race. Because you have all those climbs, you know, more packed together. You know, and then at the end it's a bit more easy. But man, all these races are decided so early, you know. It's like, I don't know when the time back was, but was it 70k to go? Yeah, it was like 81k to go at the bottom. Race over. Se over selection made done. You know, nobody, it was, it was clear already from then. This is the stuff. This is the

top three. Everybody. Welcome back to the move plus I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Berniel for our what's turned into a semi-weekly show with outcomes taking over the Friday spot on some days, but we are going to break down today's E3 clash of the classics Titans with Matthew Vanderpool winning, Matt's, Peterson, second, Philippe Ogana, third, as well as the action GC action at Volta, Catalonia and Johan's thoughts on the crash fest in the final few kilometers at Brugio de Pena. But before we get into that, we want to talk about today's sponsor.

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So if that sounds interesting again, bicycle.com slash we do use code at we do 2020, 20, we do 2025 for an exclusive offer for we do or the move plus listeners. All right, Yohan let's start with E3 just cause it's freshest in my mind. That's kind of the biggest, the biggest event of the day. But the cliff notes are Matthew Vanderpool one was caught behind a split like an early crash, big split minutes long minutes, big split.

His team didn't really panic. They just pulled it back. They it's all together going into the time Berg. Interesting. Ineos and little Trek are the ones pressing the issue going into it for fleet. We're gone and Mads Pedersen Mads Pedersen attacks. Looks great.

He's looked great all season. Vanderpoel follows. They catch, there's two riders out front. They catch them and Vanderpoel just settles in and says, Hmm, I have the old Quare monk coming up. Maybe I'll just launch a big attack there. He did. It looked, you know, but this is like what we've seen in the last few E3s.

It looks like Pedersen can, whoever's chasing in this case, it was Pedersen. It looks like they're going to catch him. It's like a 12, 15 second gap. And then Vanderpool, he must just be settling into his pace. And then he just kind of slowly buries you. It was over a minute by the end to better send. It was two over two minutes to Ghana and then almost three minutes to the Peloton, which is super impressive. I mean, I, you would know better than I do, but I don't remember E3 being raised like this. Um, 15, 20

years ago. No, for sure. Not for sure. Not. Uh. Although the E3 has been won a lot of times with a solo attack. I've also heard, read somewhere today that in the last 15 years, eight times the winner of E3 also won the Tour of Flanders. It's a great general repetition. It's a mini Tour of Flanders. It's a really hard race. It's 208 kilometers great, great general repetition, you know, uh, it's a mini tour of Flanders. It's a really hard race, you know, it's 208 kilometers. So that's different than a monument, but all the climbs are there, you know, and very, very hard sometimes in a different order. But um, but yeah, I mean, listen, what can we say?

Vanderpool, you know, it's not a surprise. Uh, the way he won Lansan Remo, the way he won his first race when he started. And especially today, this is his terrain, this is his backyard, this is what he excels in. And there was no tactics involved, no surprise. The only tactics was that his team had to chase for a very long time because the crash split the peloton. I think mainly, I mean, I haven't seen everything, but as far as I could see, it was group Alma who was really, really pulling a lot. I don't know if there was any other team.

Um, but anyway, I assume that's for Stefan Kuhn. Is that yeah. Yeah. What's for Kuhn? Yeah. Um, Vanderpool, um, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's, I assume that's for Stefan Kuhn. Is that? Yeah, yeah. What's for Kuhn.

Yeah. Van der Poel, I think, Ghana, Pedersen, and Van Aert, they were all in the back, I guess, in the second part of the peloton. At some point I saw, because we were driving, I was in the car. So at that point, I didn't really watch closely, but I saw two minutes between the two big pelotons. That's a lot, especially when it was early in the race, it was still 130, 140 K to go. But still, it obviously compromises the chances of Andre Poul because he has to sacrifice three guys, four guys maybe of his team already that he needs afterwards.

Um, so I also think that that's, was a little bit the reason why he, he went earlier than the normal. Uh, although, you know, I mean, now in hindsight, he didn't go that early actually, because he was, he kept his cool. You know, when they came to the time Burke, uh, it was Peterson who took the initiative and from the pool followed, uh, it was Peterson who took the initiative and Vonderpool followed, uh, didn't really go full gas, even took the time to let Ghana come back because Ghana was gapped a bit, you know, in the way, the way Vonderpool is racing now, I mean, I've, I've seen him, you know, rice race tactically, very smart in Milan San Remo, uh, even if, even his first race when he started, what was it? Was it, uh, was it in the now in, uh, or was it, uh, in grand prix Samain or something in Belgium?

You know, he was, he tried and he saw that, you know, it was not hard enough and he just decided, okay, I'll wait for the sprint, you know, he's unbeaten for the moment in one day races this season. He did three one day races. He won all three of them. Today was fair and square. You know, he was, he was put in a position of defense, had to sacrifice his team, which was not the plan, but this guy can adapt to situations that you say, Hey, this guy really

thinks, you know, and changes the plan. On the time, he just followed Peterson on the, on the path, which is the other steep climb, which is the last time of tour of Flanders, the same thing. He let Peterson take the initiative, did not move. And then basically went on the quarter month, which is the hardest and the longest one, which is, I think also a great general repetition for what's to come next week. Because the Quaramont is the climb where Pogacar dropped from the pool two years ago. It's the longest climb of the cobbled climb.

So this was definitely a test for him also, you know? Um, and I think that in Flanders, he, I think he still needs to be a few percentages better. But if you look at today's stage, you know, at today's race, you know, my, my conclusion in general, you know, without going into details is that it's van der Poel and the rest, and there's only one guy who can follow on the pool and that's going to be Tadej Pogacar. Nobody else can follow him. Pedersen tried. Pedersen wrote really, really well, couldn't follow him, kept losing time, finished one minute down. Ghana was in incredible shape. Tried to follow, finished two minutes

down. Wold Van Aert, which is a concern. I'm starting to get concerned now about Walt van Aert. Even if it was his first race back after a period that he didn't race and he was on altitude and you could still say, okay, you know what the circumstances maybe comes back straight from altitude straight into the races. This is not the world of an art that we're used to see, man. Um, um, his first races were not great. If we, you know, we remember, we all remember, uh, I love that. In those two first Flemish classics, I found it remarkable that

he was extremely badly positioned in the critical points. And today we saw the same thing. And even if it was strung out, I saw Wout van Aert not at the place that a Wald von Aert should be being one of the co-favorites. And looking back at the images, you know, you could say, well, you know, badly positioned, but to me it looked like he didn't have the legs to be in a good position. So I hope I'm wrong because I like Wald von Aert.

I'm a Van Aert fan and I would love to see him get a big win. You know, he would deserve it. But I'm worried. I'm worried that he can close this gap condition conditionally within the next week or even you know, for Flanders and Rube, which are the two big goals. I hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't look good. I mean, I was concerned as far back as high end. I know, I know.

I remember I told you, Spencer, come on, don't, don't panic. You know, it's still early, but I have to say your concerns were justified. It's just, it's crazy to think. So Vanderpool's won the last two editions of E3. Wow. Well, Vinart won the two before that. It's almost hard to imagine that now, you know, like 2023 wasn't that long ago, but he beat Vanderpool in a sprint in Pagachar at the end of this race. I don't know what it is, but you just, this is very unscientific. You

just watch him and there's, there's no aura. He's, he's always kind of stuck in the group and he's working the bike. He's working the bike, which is what I have not seen in the past. You know, like a great wall of an artist flies. It's just, it's smooth. Now he's working it. Um, and I'm pretty sure he will, he will agree. I mean, he obviously, he can't publicly say, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm not feeling great, but uh, he knows a rider feels, you know, and, um, well then there's the theory that, you know, people say, you know, he had so many bad crashes and now he's afraid to fight for his position.

Nah, I don't, I don't think that's once a guy like that is in the race, you know, these guys frigging fight with their elbows, you know, it's the, they don't let them selves pushed, being pushed away. If somebody comes and lean into you and it happens all the time, you know, it's a war. So I think it's more a matter of not having the legs to be in the front. I mean, you could argue he's in a more dangerous position right now. You know, when you're sitting like 20, 30 riders back going into these big climbs, like you don't want to be there. You want to be where Vanderpool is. I want to be where Patterson is that safer. But here's, here's what's like the bottom line from the day. Mads Patterson might be on the best form. We've ever seen him in his life. Philippe Ogana might be on the best forum. We've ever seen him. They finished one in two minutes behind the Vanderpool.

So yeah, I think you're correct. There's one rider that can currently challenge him. That's Pagachar. I mean, did you see how smooth he was when they got like after the Quermont, when they got to the pavement, it was like, he was like watching the footage sped up. He was pedaling like that well watching the footage sped up. He was

pedaling like that well over the time. Yeah. He was, I mean, he, he, afterwards he said he was suffering, you know, he suffered a lot. Uh, I don't know what was happening at the end because he had a minute plus and he was constantly talking in the radio in the last five K. I don't know what he was doing, but he, after we said that, uh, it was hard. He said, it's a really hard race. And I agree.

He tree is a really hard race. Um, cause you have all those climbs, you know, more packed together. Uh, you know, and then at the end, it's a bit more, it's a bit more easy, but, uh, man, all these races are decided so early, you know, it's like, I don't know when the time back was, but it was at 70 K to go. It was like 81 K to go at the bottom and race over selection made done. You know, nobody, it was, it was clear already from then. This is the stuff.

This is the top three. Yeah. The other guys were there because they were in front, but there was a matter of time when they were getting dropped. And, uh, and it was also clear that van der Poel was very comfortable. You know, even when, when Peterson went full gas on the time back and full gas on the butter back, van der Poel looked really in control. What did you think of any of us is racing tactics? Did you like those like the aggressive take the race to?

Yeah, I mean, at that point, and especially also, if you look at the composition of the team, you kind of know that that's, that's, this is your leader, right? So the matter of, okay, let's put them in the front and then nothing can happen to us as a team anymore because we, we, we put him in a position he's out of trouble. Now it's up to him. I think it was logical what they did. I've seen some debates and discussions on social media of people who say, you know, what are they thinking, Peterson and Ghana, you know, if they, if they are with Van der Poel, why would they work with him? You know, it's, it's suicide. You already, you make it, you make it easy

for him. You know, I've seen one guy, a YouTuber who, who says that, yeah, Van der Poel, Van der Poel is the strongest and Peterson and Ghana should have not worked with him. And even he even suggested they should have set up and wait for the team. And then with the two teams together really in Vanderpool, man, let me tell you, it doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like it has never been like that. And it will never be like that. You know, once that selection is made, once these big dogs are in front and they've made the effort, you know what that means, Spencer? That they're the best of their team for a reason. They're the leader. They're the strongest. Their teammates are fucked by them.

Yeah. And they made the effort. Forget about your teammates. They're done. They've spent every single thing they had. You know, and on top of that, quality wise, the leaders are just better writers and their teammates. That's for a reason. So there's no way that they could have sat up and say, Oh, you know, okay, well, it's not like, okay, it's not like right writing a little plan on a paper and they will do this, you know, go under pull the strong, let them out there, we'll sit up. You're not playing with little, little, you know, go under, pull it strong, let him out there. We'll sit up. It's, you're not playing with little, little, you know, on a chess board, you know, it's, it doesn't

work like that. Um, it's almost like reduced in complexity. I mean, people say this all the time. It's like junior racing or, you know, when you're younger, you're in college and you're racing and the stronger guy just rides away. And there's like, okay, we can all gather together and pull, but we're pulling slower than that person's riding. So we're not going to catch them. Like that's what these big time pro races are like now. Yeah. It's like there's, there's no tactic that can help you there. Well, there's the most of the, we have, you know, we have three, four riders. I don't remember the stats there, but I saw, um, I mean, you've talked already about it a few times that,

like the last 14 big races were won by tree riders or something. It's, it's, it's the 16 out of the last 17 major one day races have been won by Vanderpoel, Pagacha or Ebonapol. The 17th race was won by Phillipson with help from Vanderpoel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Four teams having won, three teams having won the last 17 years. Yeah. So there's, these guys are just so much better than the rest.

And even Vanderpool, I mean, like there's, there's just one thing that could potentially be a danger if he's overconfident, goes too early and runs out of gas. It has happened already, but it happens less and less. Now, once a guy like wonderful decides, okay, I'm going, he already knows he's going to make it to the finish, whether it's alone or with someone else, but he's making it to the finish. She's not running out of gas. Yeah. This, so he's 30, I believe him and Ben aren't both 30. Also the, the cousin of the argument you just said,

as I saw a lot of people on Twitter, this was really bothering me. Like Pettersson should sit up and wait for Ghana. It's like, Pedersen just dropped Ghana. Ghana has nothing to offer him. And do you remember Tom Boonen or not Tom Boonen, Tom Dumoulin, this still haunts me at the top of the, uh, finestra waited for Sebastian Reichenbach. He gave up. He probably gave up the race right there because Reichenbach was like, Hey, why'd you wait

for me? I have nothing to offer you. It's like, that's never a good idea. Don't do that. If you're dropped this for a reason. Yes. Unless someone's a second or two behind you. Yeah.

Maybe. Unless somebody is behind because of a mechanical or something or, you know, but, you know, this was, listen, they got dropped, they got dropped on the Quaramont and that was it, you know, but do you feel like Vanderpool used to, it's like, he's getting more refined with age. Do you, he used to have all these ups and downs through this time of year.

It's like, oh, attack and he bonks and he gets caught. Just doesn't feel like that happens as much anymore. Less and less, less and less. You know, and it can still happen, you know, but it's gonna be exceptional. It's gonna be an exception. It's not gonna happen. Like that's not gonna be the rule anymore.

He's done it too many times now. He has everything under control. Once he decides I'm going, he's gone. What do you think about what's with these strange race, race schedules? So Vanderpool's next race is Tour of Flanders. Pagacar's next race Tour of Flanders. That's a long layoff before, as an extra race tour Flanders, that's a long layoff before, you know, I've never been a monuments racer myself, but it seems like most people, big favorites in years past, like wouldn't wait that long between these races. Like, is that a risk at all? Well, not for the Favon de Poole. Absolutely not. He's in top shape and he's got it figured out, man. He knows how to train. I mean, these guys, you know, I mean, look, and Van der Poel and Pogacar are two great examples. You know, people have the idea or perception that, you know, they're

super talented and they're like more playful and, you know, they take it as it comes. Then you have other writers like for example, a Van Aert or a Ghana or Jorgensen or that they're super hard workers. Let me tell you, these guys are hard workers too. Van der Poel and Pogacar, they train like animals and they know what they're doing. And it looks to me like it's, and especially in Van der Poel's case, but today also, that Van der Poel has it figured out. He knows now how to train. He's going to train very hard. He's probably going to do some recon. He already did an impressive recon, I've been told. I don't know if it was just after Milan San Remo or I don't remember now, but apparently, you know, I've spoken with someone who was there. It was unbelievable

the recon like flying. So he's probably going to do another recon for Flanders. And, um, I don't know if he's now going to stay in Belgium or if he's going to go train three, four days in Spain. That's also a possibility. You know, these guys prefer to train in the good weather and making sure that they have all the odds on their side. That's the controllables, right? If you, if you raise another of these, of these races, it's the risk is there that, you know, you get caught up in a crash and you're, you can't defend your chances in the big appointments. Then these guys go for big appointments. Now that's the only thing that counts.

It doesn't matter if under pool wins. Doors of London, you know, it's a big race for a lot of riders for Vanderpool. It's, it's a Mickey Mouse race now. Duars of London. Yes. And I mean, my followup to that was going to be, I mean, I fell victim to it myself. Like, at what point are these not weird lead ups, but this is just the way it should be done. Like if Vanderpool and Pagache are doing it, obviously this isn't scalable because someone's going to race Wovellgem and win win. Someone's going to race scores and win. And like, that's an important win for most riders. Yeah. So it's like, Mads Pedersen can't stop, start skipping every race and just race the big appointments because that

wouldn't go very well. Yeah. But yeah, I, I do wonder like at what point does Vander Poles temp was this, does this become the template? Every big classic star starts doing this. I mean, it kind of makes sense to go home and go to Spain. That sounds way nicer than being in Belgium for the next nine days. Well, you know, I mean, it's also, I mean, if you go to Spain, you know, for these classics, you don't need to train on the long climbs, you know, you need to, but you know, he's what,

what can Vanderpool right now, what can he, can he do to improve? I mean, he's super explosive. He's in great condition. He just needs to stay healthy and not injured, you know, so going to Spain in the good weather and not race dangerous races, those two risks you kind of have in your own hands there, right? Uh, I guess if Venart, if Venart skipped all the races before Flanders, that would be silly because he does need to improve. Like he also needs to win. He knows he also needs to have a good result.

So if on the pool and when the bagacha are not there, that increases his chances of a good result in, in, in, in what's all still important races, you know, like Gendway, Blagama, and Duarte, and, and others. I mean, what do you think of Wiesma outside of Van Aert? I mean, Jorgensen was ninth, good result, but just, I can't get this out of my head. Like what, even one, two, three years ago, it was just like this yellow wall at the front of the race and you rarely see them anymore. I know things, it's unbelievable how fast things can change. You know, as our members

know because we did a Q and A yesterday for the members. I was just three days with Lance here in Europe. We were in Slovenia and we were talking about it in the car, you know, how things can change. I remember we had this discussion like the world of an art of two years ago and three years ago in the Tour de France, so it was Superman went away whenever he wanted one, three stages, no one on the Ventoux high mountain stage, he won a sprint stage and a time trial. And then, you know, the year after he was incredible, winning stages again, doing an amazing job for Wingergaard. Two years later, he's been surpassed by I don't know how many riders who are now better

than him. You know, it changes. And you know, in his defense, he had a few really bad accidents, right? Last year, the two crashes of an art that have unbelievable impact on his season and probably still carries the consequences of some of those crashes. You know, he had a terrible crash in the world of London and then a really bad crash and a bad knee injury. And then in the tour of Spain, uh, but still, man, it's, it's sad to see that things evolve so fast in cycling and you guys come and it's like, all of a sudden, Hey, who was considered one of the top three best riders in the world now all of a sudden can't win a race anymore.

Yeah. It's shocking. It's also, yeah. So members Q and a, if you're a member and you're like race anymore. Yeah, it's shocking. It's also yeah. So members Q and a, if you're a member and you're like, what the heck, I missed that. It's in the members portal, the recording. So just go to the members portal. It's the first one you can watch it. It was fun. I highly recommend it. But well, on Venard on time passing quickly, you know, it wasn't, we weren't on that show, but on the move, the tour de France move, they were pretty critical of Tadej Fugaccio winning all the stages. But my pushback would

be win as much as you can, because you don't know, like, it's not going to be there forever. You know, like think about Van Aert, he had all those great years, won one monument. We're talking about the guy like he just retired. He could still win two monuments this year. But you know, it's like, you gotta strike while the iron is hot because you don't know when it's gonna be over. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with the few guys like, you know, like Matthew on the pool, Bogacar, Remco. Uh, you saw is now, you know, coming very, very, coming in very hot, you know, like on a super high level. Yeah. These guys have to take the opportunity when they're there, man, because you never know what's going to happen. I mean, like Philippe Ogan, I feel for the guy. He's incredible. He's on

incredible form. And he might get skunked this classic season. I do kind of wonder how Rubé is going to play out, you know, all those weaknesses are taken away. That would be the race if he can be good at Rubé. Yeah, he's going to be good at Rubé Spencer. He's made for Rubé. He's a, you know, powerhouse. It's flat. It's the best race for him. It's pretty crazy. Will he be able to beat Mathieu van Poel if under the pool has this condition or the same condition as last year in Ruby? How'd say easily no

way? I mean, could anyone could like Pete Tom Boonen? I don't know. Now, the performance the performance last year of Matthew van der Poel in Ruby was exceptional. I've rarely seen this. It's going to be very difficult to repeat that, but Hey, he's well on the way. You know, it looks like Pogacar on his terrain and Van der Poel on his terrain. They're like, okay, they're the same level as last year, if not better. Yeah, it's, it's grim. If you're his rival, I don't know what my advice would be. Just target races where he's not at,

because it's going to be tough to beat them. But I guess we never know. You know, here's what I was going to say. It's crazy that Pagachar is going to be riding against Ghana at Roubaix. Ghana might be what? 20, 22 kilos heavier than them. And they're going to be going head to head in a flat race. Yeah. 23, 24 kilos. That's, that's fun. That's just a good time right there.

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episode. So Johan Volta, Catalonia, Primoz Roglic, one of you so locked in a, in a battle here. I guess I didn't pay close enough attention to Volta, Catalonia ever. I didn't realize there's no time trial. Is that an every year thing? It's been a few years already, I guess that there's no more time trial. Yeah, it's true. It's made it quite exciting because stage three, first uphill finish, I used to wins Roglic kind of, kind of like Bob, I don't know if you watch that closely, but I saw it. there was the bike after the line.

Ayso takes the lead on time bonuses, stage four. Roglic comes back super impressive, I thought, because Ayso has UA lead it out. Adam Yates, I mean, think about that. Adam Yates is leading out one Ayso. Like Adam Yates got third at the tour two years ago. Ayso goes from two-ish K out. Roglic doesn't respond immediately.

And you think, that was not riding from. And then he just kind of slowly reel them in. And then even after he caught him, he's stuck in this. It was a real tricky situation. Cause he had like Enric Moss coming from behind. Michael Linda doesn't want them to catch them. So he's leading out the sprint against the I used to,

who's fast and then has to lead himself out for the sprint wins. The sprint takes, I think altogether took like six time bonus, took an advantage of six time bonus seconds on I used. So, he tied, they were tied on time. I used to have got a second today at an intermediate sprint. So now he's in the lead by one second with two stages remaining, one of which is an 88 kilometer circuit race in Barcelona with a lot of hills. So going to be an exciting ending. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I personally think the guy who wins the stage tomorrow, I mean tomorrow is an uphill finish. I think it's about six kilometers close to seven and a half, 8%. So decent, difficult climb. These two guys

are clearly the strongest. So it's just a matter of who wants to ride with who. Because the other guys are not far behind, you know, Michael Landa is not far behind. And Rick Moss is not far behind in those stages. Who else is there like Lenny Martinez is there also, I guess. He's also close. And so basically those guys need to go for the stage win because they need the bony, the bonifications to make a difference because for now neither Ayuso or Roglic have been able to drop each other.

So I think tomorrow's stage is decisive. The circuit race in Barcelona is on Monjuic. You know, pretty difficult climb, but there's also bonifications, I think. I don't know if the bonifications are on top of the climb because one of the particular things in this year's Tour of Catalonia is that there's three bonifications, Prince every stage, which makes it interesting. We all know that the king of the bonifications of this last five years is Primoz Roglic. He's, he's won a lot of races with me. Yeah. He, he's won grand tours on by riding the race slower than the other person and

won on bonus seconds. Yeah. Yeah. But still, you know, he's up against and one, I use always in an amazing shape. Uh, very aggressive writer also. So, uh, I'm curious. I can't say, I can't say who's going to win, man. Um, I'd say Roglic has more experience, but, uh, are you so man for, for his young age, this guy races like a seasoned professional makes very little mistakes. Also. I feel like he's gotten significantly better too in the last 15 months, let's

say more mature. He's a lot more mature. Yeah. Cuts a different figure. I mean, he's more athletic and probably graceful than Roglic, but they almost are. It's like holding a mirror up. Yeah. Even, you know, the on the literally on the times, like they can't drop each other. It's like, it's not going to come down to bonus seconds, but it might be like two or down under where it comes down to bonus seconds. It's, it's pretty surprising. And I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's bonus seconds, but it might be like two or down under where it comes down to bonus seconds.

It's pretty surprising. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, Catalonia is a lot harder than two down under. So, but when you have two of these guys who are so close to each other, it might come down to the bonuses. Anyway, it's going to be exciting. Tomorrow stage is interesting. It's, it's, it's the bonuses. Anyway, it's gonna be exciting. The moral stage is interesting. The last climb is pretty hard. And this is basically our pre-Giro d'Italia because I have to imagine these are the two top contenders

for the Giro. Yes, definitely. Then there's also, I still haven't seen anything promising from him, but he's a top quality rider also and he goes full gas for the Giro. Richard Carapaz, ex winner of the Giro, second in the Giro, third in the Tour, podiums in all Grand Tours. third in the tour, you know, podiums in all grand tours. For the moment, he's not showing anything spectacular, but they, you know, he's he's a big engine. So I think him is going to be interesting to watch.

Then we also we also have Egan Bernal, who goes full gas for the Giro again. We can't say that for the moment Egan Bernal is at the level of Roglic and Ayuso, right? I think Primoz Roglic is the favorite, especially over three weeks. The guy's calculator, the silent killer, the silent assassin. He's obviously, you know, not improving anymore, but his level is still incredibly high to, to win any race except the tour. Yeah. It's kind of like a sad, I guess it's impressive though. It's really impressive because he's 35. If you remember two years ago, you're like, huh, this all sounds familiar. He was locked in a close battle with another up and coming writer, Remco Ebenapol at the same race. And if you remember on stage two of that, of that year, he was beat on the first uphill finish

remember by Giulio Ciccone. Yeah. It's like, Oh, Roglic. He doesn't have it anymore. And then he kind of slowly dismantled Remco over the rest of that race. It's like, is this guy going to be taking on like the up and comers of the sport in 2035 at the Volta Calunia? Like, is there any end to what he can do? Roglic, you know, I mean, we talked about it on the membership portal, but you know, for our usual audience, I said we were in Slovenia. So this morning we were actually at an event at the bottom of the ski slope in, what's it called?

Is it called Planika? I think so, yeah. Planika. For people who follow cycling and who have seen in a former life, Primoz Roglic was a very successful ski jumper and he had a horrible accident on that ski slope of Planika where we were this morning, which was basically the start of the cycling career of Primoz Roglic, right?

That accident was the introduction of Primoz Roglic into another sport because he started riding a bike in his rehab. A horrible accident and I get witness today, If you stand there on the bottom of that slope, it's unbelievable how steep that is. It you can't you cannot see this or you can have have a sense on pictures or TV. It's crazy. Man, you have to be crazy to do a sport like this. Just you know, taking off with the skis and flying in the air. So yeah, we were we were there this morning. Um, and we were talking and talking and thinking about

Primoz Roglic. It's funny. I've been to that same ski jump and had the exact same thought of it. When you see it in person, you think there's nobody that would, who in their right mind would, Hey, you want to go up there and ski down that and jump off it? You'd say no way. They're like, Primoz Roglic is a wild man. Was it in the summer or the winter you went there? It was summer. It was August.

Today was the day we didn't stay for the, for the, for the competition, but today was the last, uh, today and tomorrow is the last, for the World Cup ski jumping. And you know, there were already some people on there with skis and preparing the slopes and it's, it's crazy. It's so steep. It's fun. On that same trip, I did the TT course for the Slovenian national championships. Oh, I did it.

I, you know, I was like averaging 300 Watts for the course. So it's like pushing pretty hard. And then a kid came out and did it twice as fast as I did. It was Tadej Pagachar. And I was like, wow, this guy's going to be pretty good. Oh, he did. He ended up being pretty good. Um, Johan before, Oh, who do you think is going to win Catalonia? I have a weak spot for Primos. I think Primos. I think so too. I also think if he loses, it's, I think it's, it's not going to rattle him. Like you think.

No, no, no, no. Absolutely not. No, no, no. Well, listen to me. You logically are used to suit win win because Ayuso is in incredible shape. You know, he won Tirreno. He won those races there in, he won a race in France. He won La Gualia. You know, he can, he knows how to finish the job, right? But he's up against Primoz Roglic, who is very strong in this kind of races.

Are we looking at the red bull lineup for 2026? Are these guys going to be teammates next year? Because one is, I just cannot think that I, so it's like, is he just really going to stay at UAE? You know, he has a contract till 2029. That's number one. I assume it's a really good contract. And then on top of that, um,

I've been told there's an incredible high buyout, um, something like, I don't know, 20, 30 million or something. Pogacar has a $100 million buyout. So we all know nobody's going to, nobody can buy that contract. Right. So, I mean, I don't know if, even if he will want to leave, then the team would really want to let him leave and I don't think that's going to happen. Well, I guess, yeah, if you let him go, then, okay, you don't have to pay him, but then

you have to race against them at the tour. So in some ways, it's not a concern for the moment for Pogacar, I guess. But it could be in the future. Yeah. I'm also a proponent of, you know, you're, you are very familiar with this. People complain and like, I want to be the leader on this team. So and so is leading the team. It's like, you can always just stay like, there's no guarantee that person's going to be healthy.

Well, I mean, listen, for the moment, he's leading the team and all the races he's doing. And Pogacar is not there. I mean, it's not a bad situation, you know? Yeah. No. Yeah, there's no guarantee. Like who, you know, look at Chris Froome, like he didn't get, he had a year where he just crashed out of the tour. Like no one gets infinite clean runs at the tour. It's very unusual.

Um, also Matthew, before we move on, Matthew Brennan, 19 years old, British rider on Visma has won one stage one. Incredible, by the way. I don't know. Just to sum it up really quickly. Alpecin had a rider kind of noodle off. It's this really tricky wet descent if it's raining, but it's always a tricky descent and you go to town and then you have like 500 meters up hill. But Alpecin had the perfect situation because they had a rider off the front. They had Kaden groves sitting in the group.

So Matthew Brennan has the sprint basically the whole uphill section. No, he was not. Kaden Groves was sitting in the group. He was sitting on the wheel of Matthew Brennan. Sitting on the wheel and he couldn't come around. Yeah. Brennan, that stage, stage one, was it stage one? It was stage one, no? It was stage one, yeah. That performance of Matthew Brennan is probably one of the strongest of the season. If you look at the way this guy rode and the way he won, he did a one and a half kilometer

pull with Caden Groves on the wheel, reeled in Caden Groves' teammate and then still beat both of them in the sprint. And then won again today, right? Today, today's stage. He was second on stage two and then won again today. And he already won the, the now in a few weeks ago, last week. And then, you know, very tactically also the, the he's 19 years old, but he's so mature as a racer. And then, you know, very tactically also the, the, he's 19 years old, but he's so mature as a racer. And then I guess he won two other races, which were, which are 123 races, uh, before that. Um, you know, by the way, we spoke about Matthew Brennan in our up and commerce, uh, show, you know, to say, we need to watch this guy.

And then the guy who almost won the stage, Tibor Del Grosso, a huge talent. Also, we also named him in our up and comer show. So I was happy to see that two of our picks for the up and comers were one and one and two. And today again, right? One and two. One and two. Is that crazy? No, that also was third in stage one. I think. Yeah. Like stage one of the Tour 9 Under, this guy gets second, Matthew Brennan. I've never heard of him before. I was like, what is, who is this guy? And little did we know. He kind of speaks to this trend that I've been, I don't have an explanation for it, but it's like, however you come into the season really

is, is how you are. Like if you look at the early stages of the tour and under that used to have no correlation to anything else. You look at this, these guys who are strong early on, they just kind of like carry that form in a way that didn't used to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Carry it like improve on it. I'd be quite interested to learn a little bit more about that. He. Yeah. Yeah. I can prove on it. Um, I'd be quite interested to learn a little bit more about that. He's 19. There was some calls on social media today. Like this guy should be at the tour of Flanders, but now 19 years old, uh, I think maybe this is the better program for him. Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. Uh, I have to say to them and the guy, the way he behaves in the final of a race, that guy's a finisher. He's a killer, knows how to, you know, make his move at what time. It's crazy how mature these young guys are and how race savvy they are.

Yeah. I mean, and any of us is having a good year. So I don't want to, I'm not ragging on them, but I'm just saying, you know, a couple of years ago, this is a guy that would have been on any O's, but he's a British rider on Visma. And you're like, how did you get again? Yet again? Yeah. It's too, it's, it's too much. It's too, it's not normal. No. And it's like, and they're always like the finishers, you know, they go to, they think of Stevie Williams. It was like big race winner and he's on a second division team. Spencer, now that you've been talking, I'm just thinking now, you know, like, uh, we, we said about Visma, you know, like not being anywhere close to where they

have to be. And if you look at the other races, they won in Catalonia today. They also won copy Bartali today with Ben Tullet to two wins today for Visma. Right. So we just, we shouldn't be too hard on them. What happened to these guys? And these are good young writers to another British writer. Yeah. So yeah, their, their classics core is having some problem like Christopher port. I'd never, what was this illness that he has?

He has a virus. He is it's something, I mean, it's not exactly the same. It's something like the, like mononuclear, something similar. It's okay. He's sidelined for awhile. Yeah. Let's say, you know, it's going to take, it takes time to recover and it's something that, uh, it's very, very annoying. You know, you don't, you don't know how long you need. It's, uh, it's bad. I mean, bad, it's gonna, he's going to be okay, but it's going to I mean, bad. It's gonna, he's gonna be okay, but it's gonna be out for a while. And before we go, do you want to classic bruised upon a,

there was what four crashes in the last two K not raining by the way, it was dry. Um, Jonathan Milan, this was like the, what is now an infamous headbutt on Christophe Laporte, not Christophe Laporte, Alexander Christophe. But I think you had some thoughts on these, what is now an infamous headbutt on Christoph Laporte, not Christoph Laporte, Alexander Christoph. But I think you had some thoughts on these, on these crashes and the... Oh yeah. I mean, first of all, I think, I mean, listen, it's, it's, it's, it was, it's a flat race. There was not a lot of wind, good weather. Most likely this is going to be a bunch sprint and it all depends on how easy the race has been

and how fresh the guys are. But if you look at the lineup of all these teams, all the sprinters were there with teams to support them. So it's kind of a guarantee that it's going to be a bunch sprint and everybody's going to want to be in the front. And then if you look at the last four or five K, it was local circuits.

So you could argue, okay, you know, they've passed it already three times before, but there's not a single time that they've passed there in the circumstances that they go in the finish lap. This is war. It's like everybody's fighting for position and teams are bringing up their guys and they're bumping shoulders and pushing each other. And it's what happens during a race, which is in the sprint. And you can look at it under a microscope and say, oh, this is not allowed and this is not allowed. And it happens. If you have 150 guys together to the finish with their sprinters fresh and teammates who are relatively fresh. And with those kind of roads at the end, especially, you know, goes from wide to narrow and wide again and traffic separations like these little traffic islands and man, it was, there was

four crashes. It was unbelievable. It was so hard to watch. It was one after the big crashes with like 15, 20 guys all at once. So I would say this race needs to change their course if they want to, because they call themselves the world championships of the sprinters because all the best sprinters were there. If you, if you want to call yourself that in that way, you need to make sure that you have a final worthy of a world championships for sprinters. This was not worthy of a world to it. So it was a world to race. No.

Ooh, that's a good question. I have a pulled up here. If I can find it, I think it's a world tour race. Yeah. No, that's a good question. I have it pulled up here if I can find it. I think it's a world tour race. Yeah. No, that's a big no. You can't have that. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Even if it's not a world tour race, it needs to be safe. So they need to change. They have acknowledged that there's a problem and the next year, I'm telling you, it's not going to be that finished. No way. And then you know you have things that happen. I've seen this headbutt from Milan to Kristof and you know got the yellow card and then not saying what Milan did was, was justified or correct.

Uh, but these things do happen when you have all these guys fighting for position. Um, Milan, in my opinion, his head, but was a reaction to Alexander Kristoff, who was next to him, who pushed him, not, not just a little push. He pushed him literally like out of his trajectory. Milan almost hits the wheel of his lead out guy. I think was Edward turns. I'm not sure, but a guy of little track was his lead out guy was in front. So he, and so he, he, he had to go back to the right and he did a headbutt. That's true. It's not right. But I think a yellow card was, was okay.

Kristof also got a yellow card by the way. So the proof is that it was a reaction to Kristof's maneuver. You know, if you, if you would, if you would talk amongst guys in the Peloton who are used to be in that extremely intense war in the final, they would say, you know, okay, that it happens. It's, you know, we're going to do it whenever we have to do it also. Because you know, in the sprint, man, if you break your law, you, I mean, who breaks is gone. Uh, that's, you know, and you have, you have to also take into account, you know, you have your whole team working the whole day to put you in a position.

And then because one guy pushes you with his shoulder, you don't, you're not going to let yourself be pushed away. You have, you're going to push back. I mean, I, I have, yeah, I'm the world's worst, uh, at pushing people and bunch sprints, which is why I did win a lot of major criteriums, but it always cracks me up. But it's like, yeah, people get like, Oh, that's against rules. It's like, well, yeah, that's how people win these races. They're just like pushing people around to get to the front.

Yeah. I have a message for all the guys, you know, all the people who judge and who, you know, think that they can dictate what should happen. And you know, as I've seen, no, this guy needs to be disqualified straight away, you know, or banned for two weeks or here's the news. This sport is not for pussies. This is a war. And you know, if you don't push, you get pushed. It's as simple as that.

So, you know, it's the way it is. If you want to win a race, you have to focus on the line and just get there. You know, of course, without putting in danger someone else. But if you have to push your way through it, these guys are going to do it. That's the way it is. And on top of that, there was four major crashes and none of them was a consequence of the headbutt of Jonathan Milan or the shoulder push of Christophe. Around them, there was three or

four other riders. They didn't move. They didn't even bother. They just kept going. They saw it happening next to them and in front of them and they just went, you know. Well, the headbutt's kind of the pro move. I mean, cause the worst thing you could do is take your hands off the bar and like push somebody. You can't do that. You cannot, as long as you keep your hands on the bars and you don't, you know, I honestly, Spencer and you know, obviously listen, obviously listen, I have my ideas and some of them, I mean, a lot of them are probably a bit old fashioned. Not saying that they're wrong, but a bit old fashioned, or at least not following the sensitive

softness of whatever people think nowadays. But that's not just in cycling, it's in life. I think, you know, I see what teenagers do and don't do in the way they think, I'm obviously a different generation. But yeah, it's a tough sport, man. And it's not for softies. No. Can you imagine taking a head butt from Jonathan Milan? It's a tough sport, man. And it's not, it's not for softies. Um, no, can you imagine taking a head butt from Jonathan Milan?

Well, it's like a long, okay, he's got like a two foot long neck. That's so strong. Let me tell you, Alexander Christoph is no lightweight eater. You know, he's a, he's a, he's a heavyweight. He's, he was not too bothered by the head. But let me tell you, he's also not part of the soft degeneration that you're talking about. That's a hard guy. Warrior. These guys are warriors, man.

And that's, I like that. I like those guys. I don't, I don't, I, I'm not too bothered by the headbutt actually. I saw an interview of Tom Bowman who, you know, has won a lot of bunch prints and was always in there. And he actually gave a really good explanation. He said, you know, I mean, it happens. It's not a problem. He says, I had to do it all the time.

He said, my biggest problem when I was a cyclist and I was fighting for position is that I had a problem with the little guys with Cavendish with McEwen with Freire, because they came to lean against me, but they they were under my arm. They were, they were, they were against each other, they were under his arm. And so that was a lot more dangerous. He said, I didn't care too much of you know, leaning against the guy of my size because we kind of keep each other in balance. The little sprinters were dangerous for him. I was wondering about that with Milan, you know, like, cause Chris, I was a big guy,

but if you were just, yeah, Cavendish, like could even reach him like literally might not be able to headbutt him. He's, he's too far. It's against his hip. It's not against his shoulder. It's against the hip. They lean also. They also lean. Those guys, I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to say anything, but yeah, those guys are like the worst. They're leaning all over. No one can see them. They get away with everything.

But do you have anything else to add, Johan? I think we'll be, we're going to be back on Monday. Yeah, on Monday. We'll get them in Catalonia. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully George is with us. Well, for Henry, George has no choice as an ex-winner. He has to be. Oh, I will, I will make it an obligation. I force, I will force him. It's an in-house rule. If you've won the race, you have to do the show. Yeah.

Which is, I actually don't know if we're going to get Lance to do flush alone, but we'll try. Yeah. Yeah. You should do that race. Well, Johan, we will talk soon and enjoy your weekend of a pretty exciting Sunday with the Catalonia and Get Well, again, who's your pick for get well, become man. I haven't really, I mean, so, so wonder who's not doing it. Uh, well God Charles not doing it. Pederson. No, that's what I think. It depends though.

It depends on the weather also. I mean, we were talking about that today, man, all these classics in the Northern Northern Northern Europe, it's all good weather now. Yeah. We want to see some epic rides also, you know, with like cold and wind and rain. I'm sure the riders don't like it, but then as a spectator, it's amazing. Well, they could just do Perry Neese for that. That's now the bad weather race.

These Northern classics are the fantastic weather, I guess. It looks great. People are going to be moving to Flanders and droves from this weather. Okay, Spencer. Thanks. We'll talk soon. Okay. Bye bye.