THEMOVE - Can Isaac Del Toro & Tadej Pogačar Co-Exist at UAE? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down the end-of-season racing and transfer news, including Isaac Del Toro’s rising dominance, whether he can continue to fit in at UAE with Tadej Pogačar as his level improves, and whether the recent high-priced transfers are truly worth it for the acquiring teams. Before wrapping up, Johan shares his thoughts on Pogačar’s 2026 schedule, the Gravel World Championships, and answers a few questions from listeners in the live Members’ chat. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Fabric: Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/THEMOVE. Policies issued by Western-Southern Life Assurance Company. Not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Gusto: Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/THEMOVE, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Mint Mobile: This year, skip breaking a sweat AND breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at https://mintmobile.com/themove. Upfront payment of $45 required (equivalent to $15/mo.) Limited-time new customer offer for the first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35GB on Unlimited plan. Taxes & fees extra. See MINT MOBILE for details.

16th win for del Toro of the season number 95 for UAE, 95 wins this year. You know, it seems like yesterday when we were talking about will they beat 85, which was the record of HTC High Road, I think, or HTC Columbia many years ago. They're 95 now. I mean, they're probably not going to get to 100, but I mean, what a season for UAE, right? Listen, del Toro, man, I mean, it's, he's unstoppable. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin.

I'm here with Johan Bernil. We are back on our weekly grind. We will go through a few recent races and news items from the week. And at the end, we'll take questions from listeners and people, the members are joining us live through our private YouTube stream. If you're a member and you're on the YouTube stream, just throw your question in the chat and we will get to those first and then we'll get to a few that are emailed into info at we do. team but if you want to make sure your questions answered make sure you sign up for a

we do membership link in the show notes before we get into spencer tell everybody that they have to submit it through the youtube app yes yes if you are here currently in your member and you're like whoa where's this chat what's going on you got to click through to the app to see the chat it won't show up in your phone's browser or in the members portal. But just one click, you'll be there. So let's take a quick break for our partner for today's show, Johan, and we'll be right back. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to say no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. Which is why I recently said yes to making the switch and getting

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But to sum it up quickly, it's been four stages and one winner, Paul Munier has won every stage. What's going on there? And then we also have Isaac del Toro winning earlier this week, a beautiful race. Giro del Veneto, 16th one of the season. I think this guy looks better. Every race I see him in. And we also had the tour of Holland. which I didn't know was a race

that just kind of popped up on the schedule. Yeah. And then did you see there was this tour of Europa? I didn't even know this was a race. It just seemed to show up on the schedule. Why did we get? It was like this Europa. It was the day after Lombardia.

Adam Yates won. Yeah. And the UAE sent like a full team there. Like Adam Yates won J. Vine third. Christian Scaroni 4th was complaining that he asked Jay Vine for third and Jay Vine didn't give it to him. What is going on with the youth of the world today? Come on. You've got to earn your podium spots.

But let's start with Giro del Veneto. I thought that was the most interesting race of the recent past. What did you think about Isaac Deltoro's win? Yeah, I mean, 16th win for Del Toro of the season number 95 for UAE, 95 wins this year. You know, it seems like yesterday when we were talking about, will they beat 85, which was the record of HTC High Road, I think, or HTC Columbia many years ago. They're 95 now. I mean, they're probably not going to get to 100, but, I mean, what a season for you, are you, right? But listen, Del Toro, man, I mean, he's unstoppable.

You know, I mean, these races, he's so explosive. He goes. see when he attacked beautifully set up by the team and especially who was it was it Sivakov who set him up yeah who finished

second by the way in that race also but but yeah in Del Toro he's you know I mean when he goes and Bogacha's not there it's difficult for anybody to follow who was it was

Roman Gregor who was trying to follow him he was you know blew to his wheel and just got dropped. Man, that guy, I mean, 16 wins for a rider like that. Imagine if he still improves and gets a bit stronger what we're going to see next year, maybe in two years. So, you know, we're probably going to start to see then an Isaac del Toro who gets really ambitious

and maybe we'll have to look for another team if Bogachar is there. I think if he's smart, you know, he just stays with Pagachar and then just waits until Pagotcha retires and then he's the man, you know. Well, okay, my neighbor actually asked me about this randomly on the street. Him going to another team does not make Tide Pagaccha disappear. Like, he still exists. So his chances of winning the Tour de France are no greater than if Pagachar is on his team

or not. No, I mean, no, I mean, the big races, the big race is that if Deltoro raises some of the big races together with Pugachar, Pugach are going to win either way, whether he's on UAE or not. If a writer like Del Toro, if you're on the same team as the best rider of the world with his Pagachar, your chance is actually increased to win some races. Because, you know, there will be races where Pagatja are so supervised. I mean, maybe he's, I mean, it doesn't matter right now if he's supervised or not.

He just rides away from everybody. But, you know, not all, not every year. is the same so um yeah man what a talent uh del toro um you know we could see it coming right the way he won tour the lavene a few years ago and then straight away in his first year in his first race actually i think didn't he win his didn't he win a race in his first race last year down under yeah world tour race yeah first race is a pro i'm just gonna win it yeah no he didn't win the race he won a stage yeah yeah he won a stage yeah he won a whole thing third of Overall, though, finished on the podium.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, incredible talent. And, you know, what a, what a series he had also in Italy, right? I think he won six races in Italy in the last few months. Six or seven? I don't know. In September and October, he won one, two, three, four, five, six, seven races in Italy.

Yeah. In the last month, basically. And Spencer, those races are not easy to win. those semi-classics man they are hard i mean it's it's extremely difficult to win those races and it's like you know they're they fit fit as a glove to to del toro you know yeah he's a better one-day racer than pagachar was at the same age and you say these are hard races hard to win did you notice who got third is your del veneto uh was it was it probably the probably the biggest guy in the race

Jonas Abrahunson Oh, Abrahamson That was a hard course Yeah But you could tell he was he was specifically targeting the podium They weren't even trying to chase Del Toro once he was away Because they just want the points Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

No I mean that is He's an atypical rider I think he's so strong He You know for his weight he climbs extremely well And he's super fast He's a strong he's a strong sprinter. He's like, you know, he just starts going and does not slow down.

It's not like a guy who has an acceleration, but it's incredible how strong he is. And yeah, in that third place, he gets 125 UCI points. He's now, that puts his UnoX team just a little over 400 points ahead of cofitis in the relegation, promotion, three-year cumulative ranking. How is that not straightforward to people? It's clear as mud. And it looks like UNOX will be promoted into the world tour next year. I think so. I think so. Yeah.

No, I think so. I mean, you know, they're finishing 19th in the rankings, but, you know, because of the situation that Archaia is disappearing, but they are not top 19 anyway, Archaea, I think. And then it's Intermarche and Lotto who are merging, so that's one team less. so the 19th ranked they merging they are merging yeah yeah yeah yeah they are merging i mean they they filed an official request now with the ucii um yeah intermarche is done that that team is done uh all the all the all the writers have been told that uh either they make the merge they make the move to the new team or they have to look for another team uh it's it's a bit

messy, you know, mergers, there's too many contracts, you know, so the way it works is if intermarche, there's what they call a paying agent, which is a company, which is responsible for the money and the contracts and receiving the sponsorship money and paying your, your providers and your riders. So if there are riders with a contract with that company, when you don't have the company you don't have a contract with a team you have a contract with a company which manages the team that's the way it works that's they call it the paying agent the financial responsible entity so if there are riders with a contract and they do not find a team then this company is responsible for paying out that contract so um yeah it's uh it's not

straightforward you know there's there's there's a lot of negotiations to be done still Marcia is a weird team because they I don't want to use the word Ponzi scheme but the foundation's belt on sand let's say because they just lose money every year like last year they lost or sorry the team's been racking a big losses the 2022 accounts pledged to fix this but they they lost two million euros in 2023 and then they had to get 500 000 euros injected by an unnamed shareholder in a two million euro loan from one of the team's sponsor just to keep them on the road, I don't know why you would merge with this team, because you're just going to inherit those liabilities, right?

Well, probably not. I mean, I think that's separate. I think they're actually not merging, I think. They, as far as I know, I mean, I don't know exactly in which capacity the sponsor intermarche joins a lotto. I've heard somewhere, where did I hear that? I think it was going to be brico Marche. At least that's a rumor.

That's like a subdivision of intermarche is like a bricolage, bricolard. Is that a name? Bricolage. Is that a word? Bricolage. Bricolage. It's in French, maybe. Do it yourself.

Like, like, you know, do it yourself. It's a shop. So anyway, Brico Marchet is reportedly that they're going to be in the name. The bike sponsor remains Orbea. And basically, they're just changing the guy who was running Intermarche was a Belgian writer, a Belgian guy from, from Oloania. What's his name? Jean-Claude, I don't know, Bulr, Bulr or Bouchard. But, yeah, I mean, I don't know, man.

I don't think it's, I don't think it's great. this these two teams getting together. What's for sure is that Lotto, the company Lotto remains at the helm of the team and they're the ones making decisions. So the guy who comes in from Intermarchet just becomes the CEO, but he has people from the National Lottery above him. Yeah, I wonder what's happening to that loan from either Wante or Intermarche and then they still have unpaid.

wages. I just I agree. I don't know. And bonuses also. Yeah. Yeah. A certain green jersey bonus probably. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, there's the bank guarantee, you know, at the UCI, which ultimately will probably be used for that. But I don't know if that's enough. Especially if they have unpaid loans of that amount. I don't really get this merger. I guess we'll find out more as things unfold on more racing. And this has been thrilling. Tour of Guangji. it's just wonderful this is a world to erase just four straight sprint stages all won by paul monier pavle bitner getting second multiple times paul monier we should say super impressive what is this is 17th win of the season he's 21 years old like that's really impressive why is this a world to erase joan

like what's going on yeah every day spencer i'm i can't wait you know when i wake up and i go for a bike ride i come back and i can't wait i'm so excited to turn on the footage of this exciting world to a race in China in Wang Chi, you know? It's ridiculous, in my opinion. You know, you can have a race in China. That's fine. But, you know, to make it a world two race, it's been a world to race for a while now. For a while, yeah.

The reason is very simple, Spencer. This is a race that historically, I think, when Verbruggen, when Heinrich Bergen was still president, he started with a race in China. It was not in Wang Chi, it was somewhere else. But it's basically a race owned by the UCI, owned by the UCI, organized by I don't know who, maybe ASO. I probably ASO, I don't remember. But anyway, the owner or the rights owner of the race is the UCI. And I do know that many years ago for that race in China, the UCI got paid 7 million euros just for that race.

so you can guess what the reason is why it's a world to race and that's a lot of money for the uci it's a lot of money it's a lot of money and you know it's the race listen uh and then to think spencer i mean i was thinking this you know yesterday or the day before uh you know this was supposed to be the race where the uci i was going to test this new rule on limited gears and you look at the footage they're racing on highways you know there's no bands there's it's all straightforward huge roads that test would have had zero results you we would have learned anything from it um so anyway now we we talked about it last week you know that finally SRAM won their case and uh you know the

the UCI is not allowed to implement the the gearing limit for the moment but um but yeah it's listen for Paul Manier, you know, I mean, 21 years old. By the way, I got some information on him. Peak power, 1900 watts. Holy smokes. No wonder he's winning all these races. And apparently, uh, I, I have been told. I haven't found anything, but it seems that Paul Manier, before he turned a road racer, he was a mountain biker and was really good at climbing. he's not that big you know like he he's only 70 kilos so for someone putting out 1900 watts that's that pretty small did you see did you see today's sprint i mean he was i don't i would i would love to see the the speed because i think it was slightly downhill he did not get out of

the saddle he won that sprint seated did not get once out of the saddle um you know listen the competition is not super but But, you know, there's, for example, there's Jordi Meos who beat all the fastest sprinters on the Chans-I-Lise in the Tour de France already. You know, there's a, there's a few, a few. Hyl Bittner is a grand tour stage winner. Bittner, did he win in the Vuelta? Yeah, in the Valta, no? Yeah.

Yeah, so, listen, that, you know, great. I mean, he also won three stages in a tour of Poland, by the way. Didn't he? Paul Manier Yeah Yeah I mean he must have To you have that many wins

You're just winning Wait no Yeah yeah he did tour pulling He just won one stage Oh one stage Okay I think you're thinking of the tour of And how could you forget this

The Tour of Slovakia Yeah Sorry sorry sorry Yeah No no no no he won He won three stages In the Tour of Great Britain This is what actually

This is why I'm looking at his So Tour of Poland, he wins the stage. Renewy Tour doesn't win because that's very difficult. Tour of Slovakia, it's like he's on a tour of former Eastern Bloc countries, like Slovakia, Croatia, Croix, we just have to, they need a new name. Crow race, I listened to back to our episodes. It sounds like I'm talking about a race named after the bird crow. You say crow race.

Like, they maybe need to rebrand that. They didn't think that through. But he has 18 wins on the season. That's second behind tat. 17. It says 18 on the ranking list. And he's two behind Ted at Bagachar. Clearly the quality is different between those two.

What does, and remember he did the Gere de Talia, I think we were hyping him up and he looked a little, like they call it big league syndrome and baseball where you're overwhelmed by the size of the stadium and you're not hitting as well as you did in the minors. What does his next year look like? Like he'll be 22. Does he step up and kind of do it,

a more difficult world tour-based schedule, you think, or do they keep them in these smaller races? I mean, I think it's going to be a mix. I don't know. Something must have happened to him early in the season because I do remember he won a stage early on, and then he kind of didn't win anymore until May or June, I think. Yeah, June, I think, yeah, he didn't win anything.

He won, let's see, I think he won the first. Yeah, he won the first race of the season and to Alde Bessage and then didn't win anything until June 7th. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And then he just kept winning.

Yeah. Pretty impressive. Well, I guess he was probably preparing for the zero and then was trashed from the zero. So that can be a big. Well, he also got said, this is crazy. He got second at Figoria, Champions Classic. We all love that. Second at Omloop.

I had frankly forgot. about that. Second at Siam. It used to be Lysayam. Now it's Aname Siam. Sameh. Sameen. It was second behind Vanderpull. So really good results there. Yeah. No, no. I've been told he's, you know, he's more than a sprinter. Yeah.

Watch out. Yeah. Asper Philipson. Well, you know, I mean, some people, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's not even, I mean, not even comparable. But, you know, some people say that he would, he potentially could be the next Tom Bonin. Has he ever raised a Cobled Classic, though? Yeah, I don't know. I love that.

He's the next Tom Bowdoin. He's never actually started a Cobbock. But if he had, he was 62nd in the Tour of Flanders. Oh. Perfect. I mean, well, I mean, but think about Philipson. Like, he's actually, he didn't, I don't think he was doing a lot of those races at a younger age. And now he's getting two second places of Rubei.

So it's possible. It's not impossible. And he's very good. I don't know. I don't know about that. I mean, Bonin was pretty impressive. Bonne was very good. Three times flanders, four times Rubet?

I think it might be. I mean, four times Rubet that I'm sure. I'm sure about that. I don't know how many times Flander. I would say three. You're right. Three times Flanders, four times Rubet. World champion.

And you were there when this happened, like, wasn't, he was on George, he was George's teammate. Yeah. And he was supposed to be his domestic and he was very young. And he almost was better than George's first year on the team, right? Yeah, yeah. He was new professional. First year pro, he was third in Roubaix. That's crazy, especially back then.

Yeah. Yeah. And he's got, you think Paul Monnier is kind of going to be the future of, like with Brimco gone. They got to be putting everything on. I mean, yeah, well, let's not forget they have another guy who wins a lot of races also, you know, Tim Merlir. Tim Malyer. He doesn't. He says he went in tour of Guangji.

I don't think so. Come on, Tim. You got to step up. But that's a good tour of the Netherlands. He won the first stage. He won the first stage. Where did this race come from? Is this new?

I don't ever remember this happening. You know, I discovered two weeks ago, I was talking to someone who says, yeah, I'm going to the Tour of Holland. I mean, we always say the Tour of Holland. of the Netherlands. You know, I said, what? I mean, it did exist back in the days. But now, for some reason, they, yeah, they have revived it. I mean, it looks a bit. I mean, there's not many riders. It looks dangerous to me, you know, narrow roads, many parked cars. It's usually, today's stage got canceled because of the park cars. Yeah. So, I mean, it is, it is. Recently a problem in the Netherlands to organize bike races because of the lack of police that they can actually get.

But, yeah, it doesn't look like a very safe race to me. Still, there's some really good sprinters there, you know? Yeah, I do think people, a lot of hand-wringing about Tadipagatra ruining the sport because he wins everything. I would say a good place to start is I follow cycling very closely and I've often confused by the races that pop up where they they don't seem to be marketed i don't know what they are where do they even fit into the tapestry of the season why are they all sprint stages i guess you i think you were this is in the pre-record you're saying the sprinters are so good they can't be dropped so you get a lot of sprint stages but to have a stage race where the first five

stages are sprints like why are we doing this yeah you would question why someone would watch that Well, I mean, you know, you're talking about Guangxi? Guangxi and even, you know, tour of Holland. I mean, Holland, you're a little constricted. There was a prolog and a time trial yesterday. Why? She would have two time trials. Well, I guess the prolog was more, you know, more a showoff, a showcase.

Yeah. You know, four kilometers. And anyways, you know, there's 19 kilometers of time trial in this small race where that's sometimes like, we've seen big tours with that. at that amount of time for our kilometers. But anyway, speaking of, Spencer, speaking of, I wanted to, you know, pause on this for a second.

Tour of Holland. This guy. Jan Willem van Schip. Most of the people won't know this guy. He got disqualified. We can pull up the pictures here for his extreme aerodynamic position. I mean, if you look at this position and you look at the bike, and I know, this is, by the way, this is the third time in the last few years.

He's getting disqualified from a race because this is a guy who looks, you know, try to get on the limit of within the rules. And then the rules are sometimes not clear. So they let him race because he's on a small team. He doesn't do big races. but I know a lot of riders who are I mean first of all I have to say I'm happy he gets disqualified with this position because this is ridiculous this bike is crazy I don't know if we're going to show it in here for it to post but it is nuts like absolutely no what's the stem the stem must be over 200 millimeters I don't know what it is it's it's all you know it's all aftermarket you know modified it's first of all I think in first the equipment the way it's not safe this can break at any moment yeah the stem the

handlebars the seat post uh he's actually he got disqualified for the seat post not for the handlebar so how i mean but you know i know riders who have been riding with him or next to him or behind him in the peloton and it they say it is freaking scary and it's like it's basically a normal road race handlebars, but it's modified to an extent that it's so narrow on top that he, it looks, he's in a time proposition, like he's a position like on a time trial bike, but an extreme time proposition. So, yes, I think, you know, there's been, there's been people who said, yeah, you know, poor guy, they just qualify him to UCI and this and that. You could argue, you could say, okay, why does he disqualified?

because he's on TV, he's been on TV because he did an attack, which was on TV. And actually the call apparently came from Switzerland, from the UCI to the commissaire, say you have to disqualify this guy. Why is he even allowed to start? I mean, he's done multiple state races already. Why has this not been addressed yet? If the rules are so clear, then, you know, if they disqualified him now, it's because they know that they are sure they have a case

if they test his position to the rules. So why are we in the last race of the season? He's been riding like this the whole year, you know? Yeah. But anyways, I think on the other hand, it's, yeah, I mean, we're talking so much about safety. This is not safe. This is not safe for him and it's not safe for other riders.

Because there is no way with a position like that that you are stable. your bike and especially on those kind of technical courses like the tour of the netherlands with you know narrow roads lots of corners uh yeah it's it's ridiculous so green card for the ucii for this qualifying jan londp vanship with this ridiculous position that's my opinion and i mean also it's not you have like these are serious races this is not a race around the houses, Tim Merleer, like one of the best renters in the sport. You don't want these people subject to danger like that. But also, I am a fan of banning these just from an aesthetics

case. Like if we don't, if we don't protect the aesthetics of the sport, we just become triathlon. And that that can't happen, Johan. We have to protect it. So this, this position. You know, if he rides by himself, you know what? I mean, let him do it, you know, let him do it. It's, you know, his seatpost may break, his handlebars, his stem may break, but he's not putting anybody in danger. But if you ride in a peloton like this, I don't think it's acceptable. This, you know, it's just too much. And he's known for this. I don't know if he's, you know, if he's like an engineer or a scientist or he's definitely a strange character who has, I mean, he's been doing this for a number of years already.

And if we would go back and look for several different positions or inventions or modifications of equipment, it comes almost always from Yonbel and Van Schip. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick ad break. And then I have a few questions for you about Pagachar's 2026 schedule. And then I know you just are dying to talk about gravel world championships. So we'll let you get to that as well. But we'll be right back with that. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Gusto.

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that's three months free of payroll at gusto.com slash the move. One more time, G-U-S-T-O.com slash the move. All right, Johan, I was confused when I saw this news, and I don't know how legitimate it is, but why are we even talking about Tatea Pogetra's 2026 schedule? Why would this even be out? But I saw an article, I did not verify it, that he might be skipping Roubaix next year to focus on the Giro de Talia. Like you talking about Isaac Deltore reminded me of this because the obvious move would be

Deltoro targets the Gero and Tade goes tour Vuelta because he's not won the Valta before. Why would he go back to the Vuelta? And I thought the whole plan was to start winning. So yeah, go back, go to the Jero. I thought the whole plan was to win races that he hadn't won and Rube would be the major one of those. Yeah. Why would this happen? I haven't seen anything about him doing the Gero.

I have seen rumors that Jonas might be thinking about doing the Giro, which, you know, I think it would be a smart move for him too, you know. As long as today is not there, it probably would be a zero. So he would have one, all three. But no, I haven't seen anything about him doing the Giro. Skipping Roubaix, it's not confirmed, but I did see quotes from, the team management, I think Maura Gianetti, who said that they actually would like him not to do Parirubé next year. Now, whether that's going to be the case, I mean, they may ask him to

not do it, but if he still wants to do it, he'll still do it. I think they told him also this year, well, you know, you shouldn't do it, but he said, yeah, I want to do it anyways. Yeah, it sounds familiar. Yeah. But honestly, I think, I think it's too early. I think all of the all of the teams are also waiting now for the ground tours to announce the courses you know the Giro's announcing bit by bit the tour in a few weeks or is it next week already next week no it's next next next day yeah yeah next week so you know I think everybody's gonna wait and see what the course I mean most of the teams are the favorites they they already know I mean like today I can guarantee you today got your nose has already the Tour de France course in his possession. But the big announcement is next week, right? Yeah, I would also imagine you would do it no matter what the course is. Doesn't really matter, no.

Sit around. You know who used to, it still bothers me. I need to let it go. Tom Dumelon would always skip the tour because the course wasn't good. My man, the tour's ridden the same way no matter what the course is. You're a good rider. Show up to the best race to the year. But he finished second one year.

Yeah, but he finished second because he did the Gior. Before it, Johani, tried to hedge it, and he got second of the Giro, second of the tour. Yeah, yeah. And then if he just would have focused on the tour, he probably would have won that tour. I'm still not over it. That's the tour that Grain Thomas won. Yeah, Garen Thomas was pretty good, so maybe he wouldn't have beat him. But actually, it was one of the best season no one ever talks about.

He got second of the Gero, second of the tour, fourth at Worlds. Like, nothing to show for it, but that's a really impressive. Was that in Innsbruck that he was in Innsbruck, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but people probably overrate courses in general. Grand tours are ridden in a pretty static way. But I just wonder if this is like almost mind games too. Like, well, now they have Jonas. Oh, is he going to go to the, is Taday going to the zero?

Maybe, maybe not. But I think you're right. Like if you're Jonas, you've got to just do the races that Pagachar is not doing because you can't bank on beating him at the Tour de France. Yeah. Also, does he beat Del Toro at the Giro? That's a question.

What's that? Does Jonas beat Isaac Del Toro at the Giro to tell you next year? I think. I don't know if that's a lock. In the big mountains, man, he's pretty strong, Jonas. He is, he's strong, but Del Toro, it all depends on how much he improves, but he's improving so fast.

It is kind of freaky, how good he's getting. No, listen, if this program, keeps going from next year on he's becoming a big problem for a lot of riders in ground tours yeah because that's the big weakness right now it's his big mountain days but still i was pretty hard he's pretty good in a big mountain i mean he he did a really good i mean he did a really good performance and on on on although he lost the gero there but he did a good performance on that climb on the finish i was yeah it's just going to say that you'll only remember it because he lost his show there but he he did it with with carapads yeah who's known as a high

altitude climbers so at 21 years old that's not not a bad result moving on to uci at world gravel championships this is all very very strange because it's it's the it was the same day as peri tours which used to be a bigger race and it's not also a gravel race it's now it's it has It has Plug Streets in it. I think it's for the best because what we just talked about, these sprinters are so good if you don't throw in things like that. Everything will just be a sprint. I think Paris Tours, man.

Parity Tours was the classic of the sprinters back in the days. Now, lots of riders, I mean, they lost the race because of flat tires. These gravel, I mean, I don't think they call it, do they call it Blue Streets? No, they don't call it Blue Streets. Blue Streets is for Gambleyvogam. I don't know how they call it. These are just bullshit sections of gravel. I like it.

I think it's, I thought the race was dying because they redid the middle of tours, like the town. And I thought the race was dying when they, when they ripped out that famous finish to put the tram. man, I thought it was kind of on its last legs, and I think they've revitalized it. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's, yeah, it's spectacular. It's spectacular. Anyways, listen, third time Matteo Trentine in his old day to, you know, come back at the end and winning the sprint, that was a nice victory, man. That was, you know, pure experience, pure professional pure you know patience and coming out at the last moment he was uh yeah third time he wins that race that's uh easier said than none well you want to feel old he first won it in

2015 it was 10 years ago yeah i remember that finish and this new course has been happening since 2027 i thought it was a new thing but it's actually been going on a long time that they've Since 2020, no, since 20, 2017, not 2027. Oh, 2017, yeah. That would be tough. What did you think of these weird tactics at the end? I thought this was the best race of the weekend. I thought it outshined the gravel world championships as a gravel race.

Yeah. But the finish was very weird where DeCathlon had a rider away with another rider. Sitting on. It's Paul LaPera. They sit up. They let the group catch on. But the moment the group catches on, it was always going to be Trenton or Leport, right? But yeah, yeah, I mean, normally, nobody you would, you would have thought because Bissiger was in that little group behind.

It wasn't taking any pulls normally because he had a teammate in front. I would have expected that he would, you know, have done a massive attack just before they caught him. They caught them. And I think he was dead. You know, they couldn't do it anymore and then let out Paul La Pera. But, yeah, listen, it has happened before, you know, in Paritur that once they come on that last boulevard, they start to look at each other and they get caught. These two French young riders, apparently that guy from Grupama, I forgot his name now, but apparently he's pretty fast. So he was.

Thibbo Grul. Yeah. So he is pretty fast in bunch prints. So La Pera is also fast, but was not confident at all. And yeah, they lost it. They lost it. Yeah, so who was it? Trenton and Trenton and Leport and who was third?

And then Albert Witten-Philipson. Oh, yeah. Wow. I mean, he's 19 years old. That guy. He was also third in another race. I forget which one now in Italy, a hard race, which was, I think, won by Pogacar, actually.

You got second at Trey Vallet. Yeah. No, third. Third. Second? Second. Pagachar wins solo and then Albert Witten Phillips and won that bunch sprint. Oh, wow.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty impressive. Yeah. Not bad. Pretty good writer, decent writer. He'll, he'll probably like, Spencer, for certain listeners, you have to mention that

It's sarcasm when you say that. Yes, that's a joke. He's pretty good. He's pretty good. You say that. He's got a solid career. He might podium at UCI World Gravel Championships Sunday. I thought, speaking of the Gravel Championship, Spencer.

Okay. You know, it's the world championships. And for that reason, it's, it's written by national teams, right? it was in the netherlands and i you know okay um what's his name uh florian vermiers won the professional race strongest rider in the race i think after second career win i believe right i don't know i don't know but he was already two times second and one time behind uh behind mooritch i think one time behind vonderpool and now this year he he wins it um not because he was in the belgian just because he was the strongest rider.

But man, the women's race. That was something. We have these, the majority of the, of the riders in front are actually road professionals. And here it was actually Mariana Vos, Lorena Webes, Shirin van Roi, Yara, was it Yara Castellane, I think. Yeah, Yara Castellane.

So all, you know, there was this Italian lady also. And then there was this Czech lady who forgot she had a Czech jersey. And she, because she was racing to help Lorena Wibis because they're teammates on SD works. Yeah. Well, yeah. As an American, I can speak with expert, with an expert perspective on this. because gravel is an American sport. The whole point of gravel is you have no teammates.

It's an individual sport. It's an individual sport, yes. So the Dutch chased down a Dutch rider and win the sprint with the Lorena Leibis. There was, listen, there was one thing that I couldn't really understand. It was Yara Castellane, who was not a fast sprinter, who chased down another Dutch lady, Chittin van Anro, he was probably going to win when Mariana Vos and Lorraine Wibis are there. That didn't make much sense to me. But you know there's been criticism to, for example, this Czech writer, her name is Kopecki also.

It's not Lotto Kopecki. She's actually from Czech Republic. But races, you know, 364 days out of the year for SDI works teammate of Lorna Webes. So she was there by herself. And she did the majority of the work to catch the Dutch rider, Sharon von Anroy, who was escaped. So, you know, it was not, of course, there's going to be commercial interests. You cannot, you cannot avoid this, you know, I mean, that's not because that one day, all of a sudden, you're racing in your, in the, there's definitely instructions from the team also that, okay, if you're ahead and Loreno Weber is there, you know, SD works. want to win this specialized we want to win this you know i mean yeah this is huge for a bike brand

it's a big deal for the bike brands yes so but i you know i was i was really really really surprised to see uh two days later first of all i mean how can you expect that uh the dutch team for example i don't know what the rules are exactly but there was a lot of dutch riders i think it's I think it was 20, 20 riders, or 25 riders. And there was like 80 finishers. Yeah. So first of all, Spencer, the difference with gravel is, and this world championship is gravel, because this is yet another discipline that the UCI has appropriated.

You know, there's this new discipline that starts, gravel racing. UCI sees it's going to be successful. Okay, we're going to rule this, you know. You could say, well, you know, why does it need to be UCI? UCI. I mean, the two most iconic races in gravel, I think it's, what is it? Unbound. It's unbound. Unbound. Yeah, it would be one. Unbound. And then you have, in Spain, you have La Traka. La Traka. They're not UCI races. They are not UCI races. The whole point of them is that they are not UCI races. Exactly. They exist outside of pro cycling. Yeah. So the two biggest races of gravel,

or not UCI races, but yet there's a UCI World Championships where the UCI has to say, okay, this is with national federations, but there's no select, the national federations don't make a selection. All these riders have to earn their selection by either qualifying for events or by having a certain amount of points as an elite rider and then you get an automatic start entry, right and then I saw and I know for example I know that there's been communication within the Dutch team that you know okay this is an individual race there's no team tactics everybody for themselves I think that's that's fine because if the riders have to fight for their selection it's not the the federation who selects and then gives instructions on team tactics but I

was really surprised to see this the ucii through uh the i think he's number three in the ucii it's a belgian guy called petre van de nabele he's the sports director of the ucii i didn't know that the ucii needed a sports director but anyway that's his title he's the sports director whatever that means he gave an interview you know slamming the use the the dutch federation and the dutch national coach Lawrence Thundam who is now the coach

of the Dutch women's championships and for the world championships and European championships saying yeah you know this is impossible

this is you know how can you do this you know this it's you know and I was thinking it's the UCI are also going to dictate the tactics

of which tactics teams have to use in their race I mean it's like you know Yeah, van de Nabila, he should, you know, he should, yeah, anyways. They start to get into like, WWE territory. It's like, well, that's not what we plan.

Yeah. We didn't want that to happen. Why do the writers not listen to us? That's a bunch of bullshit, Peter van de Nabila. Sorry, you're Belgian, but I'm not your fan. I thought, too, I thought the men, the women's race was interesting, obviously, because we're talking about it a week later. The men's race, they just break up too early.

I'm not even convinced gravels a good spectator sport. I thought Perry Tour is, that's like actually good prototype for a professional gravel race. But these things break up to early. I was also wrong. Florian Vermis. It's his first world title, Gianni Vermeish won a gravel world title, not Florian Vermece. Yeah. It is big, got to be big for Colenago.

I didn't know, Colenago had a gravel bike. I didn't know until I didn't know until I saw the world championships. Yeah. And I thought it looked pretty good. And now I'm more likely to buy it. So that shows you why they do it. That picture of Florian Vermeers crossing the Finnish. line holding up that bike that's called for a bike right you know because gravel bikes nowadays

are you know after e-bikes probably the most sold type of bike yep i mean i have a gravel and a road bike if i was just going to recommend a bike someone by i would just say get the phantom gs1 if you just want one bike because you can do everything with it gravel bikes are great on before we get to question time we should mention derrick we talked about derogie last week a Apparently, his case has been moved to the UCI's arbitration board. I didn't know that existed. I had never heard of it. Me neither.

What is this? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, normally, if you talk about arbitration, you talk about the court of arbitration for sports, which is, you know, the CASS, whatever. You know, like, I know, I mean, I'm not going to go into detail, but it's a bullshit court. But anyways, that's the official court for. disputes. So yeah, I saw UCI arbitration

board. I don't know if that's new or if they just came up with it now. I had never heard of it before, but apparently the UCI is now also the judge in certain disputes. And I wonder, the only thing I could think of, Johan,

remember this was after Udo Brooks left Vizma, Red Bull, left Rebel, left Rebel to go to Vizma. They put these new rules in to effect where you, it is actually codified how you're supposed to talk to writers and how you can break a contract. And maybe with those rules, they have like an arbitration board to see if he broke his contract correctly because you're not supposed to do it without informing your team.

And your team's supposed to have like full awareness of it. I'm sure they didn't. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think we have the full details. As I said last year, last week, Spencer, you know, when Derek G. and his legal advisors have announced to the team that they were, you know, breaking the contract. I think they had their homework done that, you know, now we will see.

Personally, I think, and we get back into the same debate, you know, it's like, what's going to complicate things here is the sporting rules, because the sporting rules, they're always, you know, they're not clear. they're not most of the time they're not legal if this goes to a normal court which is a court of law of you know labor law uh it's going to be pretty simple and short the thing is that this takes time uh but i think the ruling would be pretty pretty clear if somebody has just cause to break a contract then it's just a matter of what's the compensation you know uh it's definitely not gonna be not going to be the 30 million that you know sylvan adams is asking for um it needs to be

what did little check pay sorry what did little check pay you a heard it was 10 million it's a lot i mean it's too much but it's still it's you know it's a tenth of what the contract said the the the the the breaking clause was apparently a hundred million which was ridiculous well i heard they ended up paying it was the three years left times the amount of and he got paid per year, which is what you said they would have to end up paying, right? Yeah. Still.

Yeah. It's, I think it's, I think it's, you know, we've seen now two transfers of riders who with big salaries, right, which is Remko and Ayuso, which leave their teams before the end of their contract. And if the amounts that I've been hearing are correct that these new teams have been paying, it's a big risk it's a huge what did you what did you hear rebel paid for remco i think i heard something like seven million yeah that's what i heard too he only had one year left on a contract

yeah plus what they're going to have to pay yeah it's too much it's too much it makes no sense is it worth it to red bull just for the one day results i didn't realize how bad they'd been in one day racing well they've no one day results definitely listen Remko's, you know, is definitely one of the top four or five guys in cycling. You know, there's not that many, plus there's not that many available. So if one becomes available before the end of the contract, it's worth considering. But it's a huge investment. I mean, if, if seven million plus on top the salary, which is at least going to be four million,

if not more. Yeah. That's 11 million in year one, eh? in year one. And then it becomes 4 million or whatever it is in year two and year three. I heard a theory to it. I don't, I've not like cross-referenced this, but it's an interesting theory. So Red Bull, Red Bull's F1 team used to lose money.

So that was a way for them to harvest like tax losses, basically. They put a cost cap into F1. So now the team makes money, like makes a lot of money. So that they would be incentivizing. to lose as much money as possible on the cycling team so they could then harvest tax losses that way. Yeah, well, that's, I don't know, but it could be, it could be. It's, if those amounts are true, if those amounts are true, if those amounts are true, personally, I think it's too much. It's, it's not, I don't really get the, I mean, it's like I, listen, if it's true that they paid seven million buy old class for Remco with only one year on the contract left, I can.

absolutely understand that the new manager of Soudal said, hey, Christmas came early. Yeah. This is, this is amazing. And you don't have to spend the money you're going to spend on his contract. That's an 11 million net operation, Spencer. Yeah. In one year for a team like that, it's huge. 50% of the budget.

Yeah, that's a title sponsor that got for 2026. Yeah, a brand new title sponsor. The, the, I used the thing is wild to me. That's a lot of money for one of you so, and he's in Miami. He's in Miami wearing a Tyree Kill jersey. I don't know if I like that. You know, listen, I mean, that's, you know, listen, he's entitled to his time off, right? So, listen, the guy's a pro.

He's, you know, whenever he has to start training and racing again, he's, he'll be ready. Now, the question is, is, is it really worth that investment, right? I hate to follow this up with, will he be ready? Did we just see him not be ready at the Volta? Yeah, it's different. That's different. Someone pointed out to me in my DMs, Matthew Rickettello got called up to that thing like two days before the start of the race and finished fifth overall.

Yeah. It was a good course for him, too. Yeah. But the thing I was wondering about in terms of Iuso and like, yeah, like, that's awesome. Go on vacation. I don't want a vacation shame. But is it kind of funny to you that Del Toro is still racing? Like, is he just?

just love racing. Same thing with Pagaccha. Like they don't seem to fatigue on racing. I used so checked out already. As soon as the negotiation started for his contract, he checked out. I mean, it was clear he came to the Vuelta. He was unprepared. Listen, I mean, if you look at it now afterwards, it's a miracle he won two stages because the guy was not ready.

Yeah, I mean, he kind of won him. When you have a guy that talented going up against stage hunters at the Vuelta, Yeah, winning is difficult everywhere, especially at that level. I mean, even a top talent, you know, if you're not in shape, you don't win, man. I mean, yeah, but we got to wait this on. We got to think it was a $10 million buyout clause for this guy. And he did check. You just said he checked out.

So is that the type of writer you want to put that much money into someone that would Lance Armstrong check out? I don't think so, right? He was, I mean, you know, if he's the leader on a little trek, he's going to be happy. It looks like he's been promised he's going to be the leader. Because if I hear the comments of Matthias Kielmosa, who was kind of, you know, he was not too happy. I mean, I mean, not too happy. I think he said, well, you know, if the team has been promising me for years that they would build around me for G.C. And now Aeuso comes if he has problems riding at the service of Bogachar.

I have a hard time imagining he will ride at my service at some point. So, you know, he's not wrong. But also, on the other hand, I think that a team like Little Trek, they can do with multiple leaders for stage races. You know, it's not like, Skilmos is definitely a great rider. One of the only riders who beat Bogacha, by the way, this year. Well, the three riders that beat Pagacho were Matthew Vanderpull, We're out of an art.

And Skel-Mose. And Schkele-Mose. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of ground tours, you know, I mean, I think, I think right now, Skil-Mose is not in a position yet where he could demand from his team that the whole G.C system is built only around him.

I think he needs to make a few steps. You know, he's been already top five in, I mean, he was fifth in the Vuelta, I think. He was white jersey. Um, you know, other than that, I mean, he's won a few stage races. Didn't he win the tour of Switzerland? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he won, he's won a few stage races. But in terms of ground tours, his best result is fifth in the Vuelta.

Um, I think. You might be right. Yeah. Is the real friction with not as scummo's, I think, is that like a mirage? Is the real friction with Milan and Pedersen? Because that's a lot of mouths to feed and a grand tour. No, I mean, they're different riders. I think Milan, I think

Pedersen and Skel Mosza get along really well. But if Iuso rolls up to the tour and you have Mateo Shkomoza and Mattz Peterson demanding resources, is Juan O'So? Like, wait a second, I thought I was the leader here. Yeah. Listen, it's a luxury problem. It's better to have too many good riders than that, you know, it's also a really good sign for a little track.

You know, the work they've been doing in the last few years. years that really big riders actually want to go there. I mean, there's been a time that riders didn't want to go there, you know, because they had, they were a lot better options. Now they're one of the top three for super teams, right? So, yeah, I mean, I think, listen, and maybe we have to change our opinion, you know, maybe we have the wrong impression. I don't think so, but maybe we have the wrong impression of Ayuso.

And he's actually able to work for teammates, too. Maybe it's, maybe I'm very optimistic. I would say if you're not working for Bagacha, I don't know if anything's going to, Jonathan Milan will just scare him so much. He will have to work. But Skelma is a, you reminded me of this. He gets fourth at world championships. And then he has a herni, a herni at a disc in his back.

In Lombardino. Yeah. And the team sends him the tour of Long Beach. Why would they do that? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't understand. I read that too. I don't understand.

And I don't know, it, I was surprised to, I mean, there must be, I think, I don't know if there's some friction there between Skelmosa and the team. You know, he, he's been verbal about Yuso coming to the team, which is, you know, one thing. And now he's been vocal also about him being in China and not understanding why he was there. I think. I would not. That's not exactly what I would want to do. at the end of my season well no nobody wants to go there it's it's like a punishment race so uh i don't understand i don't know if it track doesn't need points at this at this moment in time

uh if skele moza has this problem you know i said a 30 hour travel is not really the best thing to do if you have a herniated disc no uh he definitely should have should not have been there by the way he abandoned today, right? Or yesterday, he abandoned. Yeah. So, I don't know. Is it because the relationship between Skel-Mosa and Little Freck is a bit deteriorated? I don't know.

Maybe Skel-Mosa is looking for an out also in moving teams. I mean, there's obviously going to be a team's candidate, teams candidate to sign Skel-Mosa. I don't know, man. there's different scenarios possible who knows i would say things are probably bad if he's getting sent to that race with that problem that makes no sense that that absolutely makes no sense because trek is absolutely in a position that they can allow themselves to not send one of their best riders if not their best dc rider right now to that race who cares what they're going to do there. I mean, okay. China. I know, for example, I mean, I know from back in the days already,

when we were with track, Asia was super important. Huge. You know, we were actually asked by track to sign some Asian riders. That's why I signed the Japanese rider and why I signed the Chinese rider. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember this. So track might be, you know, they may have been pushing to have skilled more there because their market is huge in Asia. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. Yeah, that's it. That's an interesting one.

And then just the last bit to tie up here on the promotion, you mentioned points, promotion relegation standings. It looks like UNOX is safe. They're going to make the world tour. Yeah. The real fight now is between total energies and cofidis for the last spot of the second division teams to get automatic invites to all the races. grand tours and one days in 2026.

That's a one year thing. You have to earn your spot every year. It looks like Total Energy is behind by about a hundred and, I don't know, 70 points. I'm just looking at it trying to do math in my head. They'll probably miss it. Co-Fidus will get the auto invite. What is the danger, Johan, of being down in the spot total energy says? Because you'd imagine they'll get a wildcard invite to the tour to France.

and the other team would probably beat Tetima Rockets unless the tour went way out of left field and invited like Kahoo Rawl or Holti visit Malta probably not going to happen. What's the danger of falling out of that and being at the mercy of the wild cards? Because currently there's not, I guess I'm going to answer my own question here.

Like the Volta rolls around, total is probably not going, right? Even though they sponsor the race because there's three wildcard Spanish teams. I can't imagine they're going to take total energies instead of two of those teams. You know, the wealth has a difficult one, Spencer, because it's owned by ASO. So French. On the other hand, I personally think that decisions have been made on a higher level.

We all know that total energies has now become a big co-sponsor of Ineos next year in my opinion they're going to be in the name uh it's not allowed yet now because they already sponsor or title sponsor another team but i think 2006 is just a you know a fade out year for that team their total energies they're done you know they stopping sponsorship uh well yeah if you're sponsoring another team it's never a good sign yeah for the other team yeah they just they just want to make good on their commitment for 2026 total energies but they don't really care because they're they're in every big race anyway, you know, with their association to ENAeos. So let's imagine they're gone, like you're saying.

Stuff starts to get really interesting because what are the wild card teams then? If there's no total energies, like is it wide open for someone to launch a team and get a wildcard invite to the tour? Because remember you have to be in the top 30 teams to get invited. You need to be in the top 30 first. So, you know, it's not from the, and that's not in one season, you know, you have to. it's going to take two years or three years at least because here would be the this would be the options if todah wasn't around next year it'd be vf group bardiani equipo kernfarma

burgos bh team pulti visit malta unibet tutsama rockets caho roll and that's it those would be your wild card spots for the tour two of those are getting into the tour to friends yeah yeah well i think it's probably going to be titema because they're french team yep pretty smart and and they're pretty good i mean they're they're you know they come from very very small and they've in three years time two years time three years time they've or actually two years only i think uh yeah pretty impressive impressive impressive speaking of another another piece of news, actually, speaking of ENAOS, I don't if you saw that, but they did confirm the renewing of the sponsorship with Pinarello for another three years. Interesting.

So Pinarello most likely is going to sponsor two teams next year, Ineos and Q2.6.5. Interesting. I don't know where they do. Why would they do that? Was that? Why would they do that? Like what's in it for Pinarello? I mean, Yeah. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, one of the majority stakeholders in Pinarello owns Q306.5 already. So that makes sense. Um, and I guess it's the history with, you know, still, I think as a bike brand, it is important to be linked with a super team, with a, with a, with a big team, although you could say, well, maybe Q306.5 and in Eos, they're more or less at the same level now, performance wise, at least. Well, yeah, which team finish on the podium of a Grand Tour this year. One of those teams. Yeah. Yeah.

No, but yeah. We've seen, I mean, it happens, you know, that bike brand sponsor multiple themes, specialized, for example, had multiple teams also. Yeah. Well, let's get to this super important question. This is from Patrick. Again, info at we do dot team. This is, I'm only reading this because this has been bothering me for nearly two decades.

So Patrick says, I only realize, I realized years ago by looking at photos from Contador and Lance in 2009 when they both race for Astana that Lance had a slightly different design jersey in that year than anybody else in the team. And I don't mean the additional world championship stripes in the sleeves. If you look closely at the upper sleeve shoulder design of his jersey, you'll notice the design pattern was different on his jersey from the other team members. Can Johann explain this? To illustrate, I sent a nice picture of yours. Johan, Alberto, and the Lance. Can we see the picture? Let me see the picture.

And Johan looks dashing in this picture. We've got to get this picture up. Where's the picture? Look at that. Oh, there it is. Huh. And you'll actually notice Lance's sleeve is quite a bit different. And I always wondered about this.

But that's a, okay. Let me think, that's actually at the start of the Tour de France. We did have different models. models, jerseys. I know that there was different fabrics with a different model, but if I'm not mistaken, in that tour, which I actually had an argument with Alberto Contador about that. I don't know if this jersey is the case, but I do know that as soon as Contador took yellow. He had his own jerseys made. I remember this. So the brand, the brand of the jerseys were, was Bonfrager.

Bonfrager was the clothing sponsor, but they had the mate at Giordana. And Contador at some point, he, you know, I saw him at, I mean, he was in the bus. He had taken yellow and he had a different fabric. jersey than the team jersey or then the jersey that was provided by the tour and yet the yellow jersey and he had stuff made by Nalini without informing me. So it's the first time I've seen this picture. I have not noticed this but yeah, you're right. I don't know. I do know that I do know that this jersey of Lance is definitely an official jersey because I see it because of the placement of the logos on the shoulders. And if you look on this jersey, I think it's a

different fabric. One may be a normal jersey, another may be a super summer jersey. I don't know. I'm going to say, I'm going to say that probably both are team jerseys, just a different paneling because of a different fabric. That would be my first guess. But I do know that as soon as Contador took yellow, he had his own jerseys made like behind my back. It tells you everything you need to know about that situation. That's pretty wild.

Have your own jerseys made. But look how loose those jerseys are, Johan. Yeah, that's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. Like that is slowing you down quite a bit. This is, I'm hesitant to even admit.

admit this, but my first ever bike race that I did, I bought an Astana full kit and I did it in an Astana kit. You raced in an Astana kit? Voluntary. It was like $35 total. It was one of these Chinese websites and they're so bad. But yeah, there is probably a photo out there circulating of me racing in an Astana kit. We're fine that jersey and we're publishing that on the next podcast. And I thought that I didn't realize that I was like, oh, man, like Astana, that's the cool team now. I didn't know. So that must have been 2008 or 2009 or something.

I think it was, yeah, probably early 2009, like very early. Like, wow, that took me back. And then that, but yeah, I thought that was a really interesting question because that's always bothered me that they had had the different jerseys. And so here's a question from Larry last one. There's another story, Spencer. I don't even know that story. There's been very special jerseys one time in the Gero of 2009. Do you know that story?

So, wait, yeah, there was a lot of weird stuff. Gero 2009, we had issues with Astana paying. Yeah. The paying agent, which was a company that I was managing. And so I couldn't pay the salaries to writers and staff because Astana didn't. didn't pay the way it was signed in the contract. And so we, to put pressure on Astana, there was one company which had paid, a little small company and then Trekk had paid because they were a sponsor.

So we make jerseys for the Gero. So we gave the order to Jordana to make jerseys the same, exactly the same jerseys, but the logos of the sponsors who hadn't paid, which were a bunch of Kazakh sponsors. I don't even know why they were on there. Back in the days, it was basically the minister of sports who made a phone call to 10 companies in Kazakhstan. He says, okay, I need this amount of money.

You, you, you're volunteering to sponsor my team. Boom. Done. And so these companies hadn't paid. So we made the jersey. and you know from close by you could see like a logo like a half transparent logo on the jersey but on pictures and on TV you could not see the logo yeah I remember so we didn't break the rules because the logos were on the jersey but they were just not extremely visible and it helped because two weeks later they paid they paid all the all the salaries that was that was a rough time

man let me tell you and that was when like vino was coming back right exactly yeah yeah yeah i'm sure i want to watch that documentary um moonlight graham asked an very easy question great name by the way do you watch do you two watch cycler cross i enjoy as it comes on early in u.s time so nice weekend viewing with morning coffee i actually do watch quite a bit of cycler cross same reason because it's on in the morning in the u.s and my son five years old is obsessed with cyclic cross so we're watching all the all the races that are on yeah yeah Yeah, I watch, I watch soccer cross. I mean, I haven't watched it yet this year.

This is a little early, a little early to be tipping into the cross. There's been some, there's been some crosses. But obviously, you know, I think everybody's going to watch when, you know, when von der Poul or Von Arte shows up. I don't know if they're going to. I think, I think for sure there will be, they will be doing a few. Although I suspected to be less and less. But yeah, yeah, I watch SACA cross.

But, you know, then it's, you know, when there's no more other races, then I start watching Sackacacrocross. It's hard in Europe, and I'm in Europe. And there's not a non, there's a non-target race on. It's in the middle of the day when you're doing things versus in the U.S. It's easier when it's in the morning. And then Larry, this is right on the topic we're talking about. He said, was when choosing a member of a team for a grand tour, how do you balance a writer's numbers, like power numbers, with how well their personality, the benefits and affects the team's chemistry.

Well, you know, when I was at the SNAT manager, we didn't have those data yet, the power numbers, you know, it was private. We kind of had an idea, but, you know, it was not common that you would say, hey, you know, send me your power files. That was just not the case back then. But personality was very important for me, very important. You know, I made a few mistakes. stakes with certain people, especially with Americans.

But there's this documentary, right, where I say something like, yeah, another young American weirdo or something like that. I think it was like your first, it's your first thing you say in the documentary. It's a very good documentary called Lance, I think, on, it's on Netflix. And your introduction, you're like, there's no weirder people than American professional cyclists or something like that. I mean, listen, there's been a lot of American professional cyclists who were really weirdos, like extremely weird.

But, you know, back in the days, we had that policy that, you know, we at least every year we were, you know, we made the commitment to USA cycling that we would take to young American cyclists from that program. So, you know, there's been a few, yeah, strange ones. But no, but personality is super important, especially, you know, like back in the days when we were, you know, on a role and building a team focused on the Tour de France, you know, whoever was considered to be on the long list of the tour needed to fit into the philosophy of the team. like, okay, this is our focus. This is, you know, the way the team works and, you know, we have one leader. And yeah, there's been a few who came into that long list and then, you know, they did the tour once or twice and then they left because they had personal ambitions and they went on to be leaders or co-leaders of other teams.

But that's logical, I think. But I would say personality is back then at least because we had a more reduced program. Like now you can say, okay, you know, this personality doesn't fit with this guy. We have enough races, enough riders. We can basically give them programs that they see them, they see each other once in the year in a training camp. And then they don't see each other anymore for the rest of the year because they're just racing all over the world. And they never race together. Back then, that was more difficult because we didn't have such a big roster.

yeah um amy yeah you should probably try to get along with the co-workers would be my no matter how good you think you are yeah just try to mesh with everybody would be would be my advice all right yohan we'll let you go we'll be back next week for same same time same place similar format maybe we'll have a little bit more clarity on a few of the things that we're talked about today but thanks for joining us okay thanks spencer speak soon all right bye Thank you.