THEMOVE - Does Tadej Pogacar Even Need Modern Tech To Win The Tour Themove

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down the latest news in professional cycling, including the recent revelation that Tadej Pogačar nearly left the Tour due to an injured knee, and discuss if Pogačar could have won this past year's Tour on a bike from a decade ago, before going through what Jayco-AlUla's funding issues mean for the sport and take a few listener questions from the live Members' chat. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Nord VPN: Get your Exclusive NordVPN deal here → https://nordvpn.com/themove It's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee! Link is in the episode show notes. Huel: Huel makes healthy eating simple. They also just launched into Target stores nationwide! Try both products today with FIFTEEN PERCENT off your purchase for New Customers with our exclusive code THEMOVE at https://www.huel.com/THEMOVE. Caldera Lab: Upgrade your routine with Caldera Lab and see the difference for yourself. Go to https://CalderaLab.com/THEMOVE and use THEMOVE at checkout for 20% off your first order Quince: Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to https://quince.com/themove for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too.

I think a lot has changed the aerobikes, the tires, the wheels. I think that's the biggest one. I think it's the tires and the wheels. Oh, I mean, I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist, Spencer, to know that that's the most component, the most important component of every single bike, right? It's where the wheels and the tires, right? It's what touches the grounds first and that's what puts you in motion. everybody welcome back to the move plus i'm spencer martin i'm here with joan bernil for our usual weekly show we're going to be covering a few of the news topics that have been coming out speculate on

if tatea pagach could win the tour to france on a bike from just a few years ago or even from back in johan's management days but and then we'll get into questions from listeners and if you're a premium listener you can ask us questions live and we'll get to those first before we get to the one sent to info at we do. But first, Johann, let's hear from today's sponsor, and then we'll get right into the episode. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by NordVPN. NordVPN has become a must have for me to keep up with all of the cycling I watch

for the show. What I love most about NordVPN is the freedom it gives me. I can safely access my favorite streams and cycling coverage, no matter where I am in the world, during major races, that's huge, because I might be traveling or just trying to catch a broadcast that isn't available in the region I happen to be in. I can switch my virtual location in seconds, which is exactly what I need. And I suspect it's what the cycling fans listening to the show would want as well.

It's incredibly easy to use just one click to connect. And with over 7,500 servers and 118 countries, you can change your virtual location effortlessly. NordVPN is also one of the fastest VPNs out there. So you never deal with buffering when you're streaming that big mountain stage. And one NordVPN account works across 10 different devices. And it supports every major platform, Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS, you name it. If you want to try NordVPN, you can do it right now with no risk with our exclusive offer.

Just go to NordVPN.com slash the move to try it out risk-free with a 30-day money-back guarantee. That's 30 days. You can try it. See if you like it. If you don't, no skin off your back. NordvPN.com slash the move. The link is in the show notes as well. All right, first thing I want to ask you about, Johan, is I trust you've been well.

Is this true? Yeah, very good. Very good. You're riding, getting those miles in, getting the K's in. I am getting closer again, Spencer, I checked this morning. The gap is getting closer. I think I'm 100 kilometers behind now. Oh, my Lord.

So, yeah, I mean, you're lucky. It just started raining here in Madrid. So that might complicate things from you a bit. So, yeah, check the weather report. We're going to have to do a live stream of the final day of the year. It's just on us. It's going to come down to the wire. But speaking of coming down to the wire, speaking of not coming down to the wire,

the Tour de France 2025, Tata Pagachar wins, cruises to victory through the final week. But if we cast our minds back, a lot of consternation, let's say, about what is wrong with Pagachar? Is he sad? Is he like an orca in captivity? What is going on? He's not winning stages. He was not racing aggressively. I thought he's racing pretty smart, pretty conservatively.

Got the job done, wins his fourth career tour with the massive margin. no reason to attack. But it comes out, now he is saying him and the team around him that he had a knee injury in the final week of the Tour de France. And if you remember, he crashed on what was that stage 10 or 11? The day before Ota-com. You crashed. Day before he just destroyed everybody and won the race.

But if you crash, you know, like that, you can often hit your knee in a way that will cause you problems a few days later or a week or two later. I would guess that's what happened. I feel like people just totally go. lost over the crash and don't mention that. But what is going on with this? Is this, Pagaccio just giving us context for that?

Still, he did not look in any way beatable. He said he had a scan and that his continuation in the race was maybe even at risk. What do you make of this, this not leak, but announcement? Well, I think it's true. I mean, he did say it in an interview, I think, a few weeks ago in Slovenian media. Yeah, but now Tim Wellens has come out also confirming that story. And he gave an interview and he talked about it. That, yeah, there was a moment where he's, you know,

and I would suspect that, you know, a leader like Pogacar in a team like UAE, you know, initially I think he probably kept it to himself and maybe just the medical staff. Do not worry your teammates who have to basically. you know, empty themselves every single day to keep you safe and bring you where you have to be. But I do, I do definitely give credibility to that story. And, you know, now looking afterwards, having this information, I think it kind of makes sense, you know, because he, the information is that it started at the Montvantou or after the Montvanteau. and I think that's probably the last time he has attacked because the Alps were the Alps were after the Monvon 2, right?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. The Alps were in the final week where he was. Yeah. So he attacked a few times there. Couldn't shake Jonas.

And I mean, listen, you know, he's human. You know, I mean, it's something is going to happen at some point, whether it's because of a crash or because of of, you know, they're always on the limit. Your body reacts and, you know, the little pains here and there are always there. It's, you know, it's a miracle if you never have any kind of injury. And so now looking back on that and knowing this, it kind of explains a little bit of, you know, we saw him right conservative, but also his energy, his demeanor. You know, initially we said, yeah, you know, he's the high.

of all the questions, which is true, you know, you're there. It's always every day the same thing, you know, how do you feel? Why didn't you attack? You know, I mean, you get annoyed. But on top of that, if you have, I mean, listen, if we have a little tiny injury, little pain, you know, we are annoyed the whole day because it's there. It's a nagging little pain that's there. And it has an impact on your mood.

Yeah. I mean, at least I'm that way. I mean, if I have a little pain, I mean, my hip hurt. it's when I walk up the stairs and it keeps hurting. And I'm pissed off the whole day. You know, I'm not, I'm not really enjoyable. And I think that explains a lot. So, yeah, I mean, listen, hats off on how he managed it, both publicly, not speaking about it.

And, you know, they said he was sick a little bit also. I remember he said, they said he was sick. but but especially even the way he the way he defended his jersey you know never every I mean he didn't have to attack and any any attempt of an attack by Jonas he was never in trouble so you know I would say on the one hand that I mean the conclusion or what we take away from this is okay you know he is human he is he can also be fragile that that can have an impact on, you know, the next tours. If, you know, if he gets sick or injured, on the other hand, the bad news is if you can't even beat him when he's injured, what are you going to do when he is not injured? You're not going to beat him. So it can't get any worse than that. It does show you that the race could have been over for him on stage 11.

It's that, that's how it happens. It's a cross of wheels and the final 5K. and yeah it's over i mean i i remember seeing that crash you know where he when he went down and then he hit the curb the day before the first big mountain stage i mean i was my first reaction is oh shit this is bad you know i mean i if i would have been the team manager or team director and my leader has a crash the day before the first big appointment i would say wow this is you know we're going to be we're going to be holding on for dear life tomorrow and uh you know, it was the opposite.

But sometimes the consequences of a crash manifest themselves, you know, a few days later. And, you know, we don't know if it's because of the crash or if it's because, you know, he had a little injury with David managed to, you know, heal before the tour and came back up. We don't know, you know, but, but I definitely think that the story is true and it explains now a lot better what we saw in the second part of the tour de France. Yeah, why he only won four stages, Johan. What a disappointment, four stages in the overall. I still think it's so funny that, just like, what a disappointing tour.

It's like, the guy was still really good in the Alps. He just was following. Do you remember why he said he got sick? Still, I can't tell him he's joking. And this is a classic, if you're an American who spends a lot of time in Europe, one thing you notice. Oh, because of the. Ice or something?

Ice. Not a lot of AC. And he said, oh, maybe the air conditioning got me sick. We still, they're getting the young generation, Johan,

the young guys still think the AC makes you sick. Also, did you ever, is this an old wives tale that Belgian directors don't let you have plants in your room because the plant is going to take oxygen from you? I've never heard that. I've never heard that one. It would not surprise me.

It would not surprise. I mean, you could absolutely. You know, I remember, I don't know if I ever told this story, but, you know, I remember my first year professional. It was in 1987, you know, there was absolutely no knowledge, no internet. You know, we had basically magazines and TV programs and then whatever people told you, right? And so I remember my first stage race I did was three days of the Pana. It was on a small Belgian team.

And so basically back then. You know, you had these, my director was a very big champion in the past. Ferdinand Braca, he won the tour of Spain. He was third in the Vuelta. He had the hour record. It was a massive champion. And so first time with the professionals, professionals, I mean, my team back then would not qualify even as a one of, like a bad development team nowadays. Oh, I've been on some of those.

Yeah. So, so, you know, there was a double day, the last day. And so there was a race in the morning and then a time trial. And I, the year before, I had won the Grand Prix D. Merckes, which was the time, which was equivalent to the Belgian Championships time trial in the under 23 category. And so I had, you know, my goal was to perform one in the time trial. So like I remember, I came off the bike in that morning stage. And we had, we had no buses, you know, that we, we, we,

Basically, there was like a sporting complex, a football field with showers. And then there was like a restaurant next to it. And so I get off my bike, put the bike there, go to the showers. And the guy said, hey, where are you going? I said, I'm going to take a shower. He said, no, no, you can't take a shower. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, you need to ride perform this afternoon.

So, you know, like the swan year is just going to clean your legs and wipe you off with alcohol. You put on your tracksuit and you go to, you. go to lunch because if you go to the shower, you know, you need to understand that right now your body is, you know, warmed up, your pores are open and the water's going to go inside and you're going to be bloated and I believed it. I believed this. I believe this and I did not take a shower. I didn't, you know. This is actually a great, yeah, it's like you can, how bad information can spread and stick. But also, I mean, this is what he had been told before, you know.

And it had worked for him. So, yeah, those were the days, man. I definitely, I know I can, I can like picture perfectly the scent, too, of what everyone smells like. When they've not showered, they've only been rubbed down and changed. Exactly. Wow. That's an incredible story.

Let's take a quick break. and then I'm going to ask you if, you know, if injury's not going to stop, is racing on an old bike going to stop them? But we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Hewell. My mornings have been busy with school drop-offs and pickups. That's why I was late for this very show. And to make sure I'm getting everything I need to eat,

I've been reaching for Hewel's Black Edition, high protein, on-the-go, complete meal replacement shake. I've got it right here. So I don't get hungry during the show. It's got 35 grams of protein, 27 essential vitamins and minerals, and it's gluten-free with no artificial sweeteners, basically a complete meal that's ready to go whenever you are. And my go-to flavor right now is the chocolate peanut butter.

It's smooth, not too sweet, and keeps me going all morning. Hewell makes healthy eating simple. They also just launched in the Target stores nationwide. Try both Black Edition, ready to drink. And the daily greens, it's like a carbonated can. It's delicious. I'm having it right now. Products today with 15% off your purchase for new customers with our exclusive.

exclusive code, the move at huell.com slash the move. That's huel.com slash the move. Uh, link will be in show notes as well. All right, Johan, back to the episode. So Luke Roe and Garant Thomas were talking on their podcast. We're not going to name it. We don't want to give them free publicity. But I thought it was an interesting conversation. It was a question they got. We've, we've resorted to stealing questions they've gotten on their show for content. That's how slow it is in pro cycling right now. But they get a question, could Taday Pagacchar, I believe it was when the Tour de France on a bike from 10 years ago,

Lou Crow ratched things up and said, I don't think he could win the tour on a bike from five years ago, which is when Tade Pagaccio was winning the tour on a rim break, Colanago bike, let's just start there. Do you think if he starts this 2025 Tour de France on his 2020-Colago, does he still win the race? Yeah.

I think so too. I think it's probably not that much slower. I mean, maybe the time trial bike is slightly slower. If I remember correctly, Spencer, when he was still on, I mean, I think Colnago and some of the riders on the team decided to keep rim brakes. But I think the majority of the teams, the riders were already on disc brakes then also. Yeah, he was one of the last riders to go disc. The reason for that is the lightness of the bike. Yeah.

What's funny as you. But what have we learned this year? So interesting. So how much smarter we are, Johan, than a year ago, that you went and dug around like a real journalist, found out that UAE has now shifted from thinking lightness as important to, and also how much, man, we spent two decades trying to get lighter bikes. Now that doesn't really matter at high speeds. If you're going over 18K an hour, the superior aerodynamics of their aerobike actually makes you

faster on climbs. Well, yes, I mean, yes, yeah, you're kind of right, but I think to an extent, I mean, they made that decision when they knew that they could get the weight down to 7.1 kilos, which is basically, you know, you can only go to 6.8. Yeah. And now I think that the bike of Pogacchar, the bike that he used in the time trial to Perraguid was 6.9 kilos. the aerobike. Because they took the paint off, right? Yeah, and a lot of, yeah, no handlebar tape, whatever, you know. But yeah, I mean, apparently that's the knowledge they have now that from a certain moment,

from above 18K an hour, arrow does take the upper hand over weight, of course, if it's not too much. But yeah, I mean, they get these bikes down now to, to even the aerobikes. They're getting them down to the limit. You know, I've seen, I mean, I've, I've seen a few videos in the last few weeks about the UK national champion hill climb and the bikes there are coming up there, like 4.5 kilos or something. So you can actually, with with the right components,

You can. I mean, I know, for example, in UAE, like the seatposts, I mean, I don't know if this new aerobike now. What's it called the Y, the Y. The Y. VR. 1 or something. Y. R.

something like that. I think so. I never get it right. Yeah. But, but, you know, they, Pogacha, especially Pogatja, but I think, you know, the majority of the riders, they actually, you know, they source light components. Like there's one component manufacturer from Spain, actually. He does seatposts and stems and they are using like from a real boutique manufacturer, the seatposts because they're just so much lighter.

So yeah, if you can get an aerobike down to the weight, which is super close to the limit, then of course you're going to use the aerobike. I think, I think one of the thoughts behind. it is also how much you actually save energy you save in between the climbs. You know, I mean, on the times, you know, but the leader, first of all, the leaders are mostly protected. So I think that's also a tradeoff, which sometimes is maybe focused too much on arrow, because if you're if you're not arrow, but you're protected all the time, it doesn't really

matter that much. If you're in that, you know, vacuum of the Peloton with three riders of your team. team around you, does that really matter then if you are on a hero bike or not on the flats? Yeah. But what did we see at the end of the year a lot? It'd be pagachar going solo before the final climb. So he's by himself on the flats. And I guess you have to take that into account.

Yeah. But let's ratchet this up. Okay, five years ago, he's winning. What about 10 years ago, 2015? So that's Frum's Pennearillo. Let's say he's writing that from 2015 because he win the tour. Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I'm nobody to say different than than Grain Thomas and Luke Roe, you know, because they're in it. So they've seen the evolution themselves of the bikes.

They rode, both of them, rode 10 years ago, right? And they know how fast the bikes are now. So they said that Bogartier wouldn't have one. I kind of tend to agree. I think a lot has changed the aerobikes, the tide. the wheels. I think that's the biggest one. I think it's the tires and the wheels.

Oh, I mean, I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist, Spencer, to know that that's the most component, the most important component of every single bike, right? It's where the wheels and the tires, right?

It's what touches the grounds first, and that's what puts you in motion. Other than the wheels, you know, if you look at, I mean, there's, there's three main component builders.

You know, you have Campanolo, Shimano and Fram. They're all good. So independently of which bike brand you're on, you're using one of those three groupos. And but the wheels, I mean, the wheels and the tires, it's massive. The change. And I sent a photo, a picture here in the chat. If Gabriel can publish it.

This is a picture of, we had this, we have a group, a group chat amongst, you know, all the ex-U.S. Postal riders. It's called the Blue Train Rides Again, which, you know, is ultimately, it's a goal that at some point we're going to get back together and all ride again together. But it's been talked about a lot, but it hasn't happened yet. But there was a picture shared this week from the Tour de France 2004, which was staged with some of the cobble sections of Paris-Roube. And we see here we see Echimov and George Hinkopi and Lance getting the first three riders onto the first cobbled section. If you look at those tires, Spencer, you know, those are just the normal, usual considered the wider, widerish. diameter 23 millimeters.

Which, you know, they had, I think they had, I don't know if they had arrow wheels or, or probably, yeah. But, but yeah, I mean, you see Echimov coming in here first and if you see the size of those tires. And, and, you know, then we thought, or, you know, people thought that for time trials and specific events, the, the narrow you went the better. Yeah. This is ridiculous, but I do remember thinking that. Yeah. And now it's the opposite. You know, now, I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I think Pogacha rides 30mm all year round.

The standard, you know, is more or less 28mm tires. Don't tell anybody now to go on 25 millimeter tires, which back then at the moment of that picture were the tires we were used. We were using for the cobbled classics, the 25 millimeter Hutchinson tubulars. So. Yeah. I mean, listen, we both ride, Spencer. We have, you know, we have good equipment. We have our ventums.

We have our zip wheels. We have, you know, decent, you know, diameter tires. I personally, I write 32mm tires on the road. And, I mean, it's not for performance, but in terms of comfort, it's amazing. What do you write? So I have 32s. Just moved up to the 32s. I love them.

Like, I don't, I can't imagine going back. I will say, I'm not. in shape currently. And I did a group ride with some pretty good guys like Scott Monagher. The guys won a race or two. And we were fast. We're going faster on sections, like flat sections than I was 10 years ago when I was in very, very good shape. So it shows you. With a worse bike. With a far worse bike. And it shows you just the you're all rolling so much faster. And it has to be making a difference. I heard a pro say that the tubeless these modern tubeless tires are 20% faster. You put out 20% fewer watts. Sorry, 20 fewer watts versus the tubulars, which 10 years ago, that's what everyone would have been riding.

I heard cofidus was riding tubulars until last year. I mean, 20 fewer watts is a lot of watts. I mean, so these tires are significantly faster than the old ones. Yeah, I think this year is the first year ever that every single team. There's no more teams is on tubulars. Everybody's on, on tires and, you know, whether it's tubulus or not, that's up to the rider to choose. But, but yeah, listen, I mean, it's a massive difference. So, I mean, to come back to the question, would Pogacra have won, when nowadays, Tour de France with a bike from 10 years ago, I would I would say probably not.

That's wild. That's wild that it can make that. much of a difference. I mean, their argument, too, was maybe a hill climb he wins, but day after day, you're putting out so much more effort than everybody else. And also, I think Spencer would, okay, you know, you would need to need to, he has the equipment of 10 years ago and everybody else has today's equipment, which includes the gearing.

The gearing. Yeah. You know, that has changed massively. You know, I mean, if today, you're, I mean, every, every bike you ride, whether it's Ram or Shimano you can write 34 in the front, 34 in the back if you want. You know, I mean, 10 years ago would have been, was there even a 34 10 years ago? I don't think so. Probably not.

Yeah. 28 was crazy to have that. And that makes a huge difference on climbs. But let's take a quick break. And then we're going to talk about fairness and how the sport can be unfair in ways that might not be obvious. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Caldera Lab. With the days getting shorter and the air getting drier and colder, it's harder than ever to keep your skin hydrated and in good shape.

Well, that's where Caldera Lab comes in. They've completely redefined men's skin care with combining advanced science with clean, non-toxic ingredients. It's simple, effective, and actually works. Their lineup is dialed. The base layer is a quick, absorbing nutrient-rich moisturizer with a clean mat finish, no greasy feel, no fuss. The eye serum tackles dark circles and puffiness.

75% of users said their eyes looked brighter. It's also key if you're flying around the world like myself and you don't want to look like a tired ghoul. And the good is an award-winning nighttime serum that delivers nearly 3.4 million antioxidant units per job to help you protect your skin while you sleep and keep looking smooth and hydrated all day long. Since I started using Caldera Lab, my skin looks better and I just feel better. Every time I leave the house, I feel completely put together. So whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine, Caldera Lab makes skin care simple and effective. Don't settle for drugstore junk or steal your partner's products, elevate your routines with skincare made for you. Head to calderaLab.com slash the move and use code the move at checkout for 20% off your first order.

That's caldera lab.com slash the move. So Johan, we're back. You actually, to call back to what we're just talking about, you said the, you went to the, you went to Leapardtrak in 2012. and the Schleck's insisted on riding 21 millimeter tires? Yeah, I remember, I remember we were, I mean, I was always of the idea with, you know, with Postal and Discovery and then Radio Shack, we started Radio Shack, that 23mm tires were just the safe option, you know, you exclude, I mean, especially for, we always raised 23, but also for the time trials and especially for the deep time trials.

I just wanted to eliminate risk. And I remember, so I brought, I don't know how many, 10 riders from Radio Shack into the Leopart organization where they had, you know, they were riding track, but I remember we were riding Hutchinson. They were riding Schwalbe and they were insisting the whole clan around the Schleg brothers and Conchelada. They were, they, they didn't want to write 23 times. They were insisting on riding 21 tires, which they did.

You know, they had this whole stock of shrubb tires of 21, which, you know, and it's always up to the rider. The writers can choose as long as you have, you know, the different sizes on offer. But yeah, it turns out that there was obviously not not the right way, the right thinking. It was more of a psychological. I just thought that also even in the downhills, you will have less grip. It is more dangerous. And especially when it's wet, it's, it's, you know, it's more dangerous. So, but yeah, I remember they were insisting on 21 tires.

Well, you actually, another thing, you must be right that he wouldn't win the tour with the bike from 10 years ago. Because you describing these tires these guys are on and then how much faster they're going now than shows you the penalty everybody was taking with those small tires. But I think we touched on it last week, but Jaco, Alula got. It was happening almost as we were podcasting, but they got their application in for the world to relate because there was a delay with the UCI, the security deposit. Basically, they have to put down, you have to put down a certain amount of money at the beginning of the year in case you stiff everybody on wages. It's like three months of your budget has to be tied up. Well, it's it's 20. It's three months of the salaries.

Okay, three months of the salaries. Not the budget, the salaries. So the staff and writer salaries, 25% of that need to be covered with a deposit at the UCI. And it stays there until, you know, you finish your year. And then it gets released. And we can kind of guess what when I, I think you talk about how much Jerry Ryan is putting into the team. He allegedly covered that last second security deposit so they wouldn't go under. This is also, I heard that they're going to. Like going back to Kofidus being on tubulars, what a big disadvantage to everybody else.

By the way, like two years ago where you have like Guillom Martin climbing, doing all these races on slower tires. But J-Co is apparently going to cut back some of their altitude camps. They just have to cut corners to try to make ends meet. If they wanted a sponsor to come on that wasn't a Lula, like if they wanted to replace J-Co because J-Co is Jerry Ryan's company, I mean, what would they need like 10 million euros, something like that for 15 million? Yeah, yeah. That's like 15 for a co-title sponsor, maybe even 20. Well, I mean, you know, if Alula, I don't know, but I don't know how much Alula is paying.

But yeah, I mean, to replace Jerry Ryan, it's 15 million. And think of the pool of companies willing to do that. Not very many. I mean, what you're talking about last week, what we're seeing now is companies bring the teams in-house because they're like, well, it's not worth paying that as a marketing expense to somebody else. we might as well own it. But is this unsustainable? It just has me worried.

Like we're seeing a few teams with very big budgets that are state-backed. And then you have a few teams like Ineos with Jim Ratcliffe, who is a wealthy individual. But then you think about teams like J-Co and you're like, where are they left in this? And is it really realistic for them to command that amount of money on the open sponsorship market? I worry about it is unsustainable, Spencer, in the long run. This sponsorship amount is trending upwards. It's not going to stop. It's what's fundamentally wrong with the economic model, the business model of cycling.

You know, and a sport cannot survive if the main players are exclusively depending on external sponsorship. There is nothing in this sport for the riders and the teams that is generated. by the sport. It goes to ASO, to the organizers, and to the UCI, which makes no sense. So, you know, I've seen reports now lately that, you know, they're talking about, would it be a good idea to, you know, make spectators pay for to be a spectator? It's not a, it's not a popular answer, but my opinion is yes, it makes sense. I mean, it is, I mean, it is.

I mean, name one. I mean, if you look at the Tour de France, for example, and put that in perspective with other big events, there is no other event which is free. If you want to be there, you have to pay. And, you know, you can, I think that you don't, it doesn't need to be paying the whole. Of course, you cannot make everybody pay.

But in specific areas where you want to be, it's going to need to change. And especially that, you know, that income. I mean, if we, if they do that, for example, the tour can do that. Guess where the money is going to go to ASO? Well, I was just going to say, there are races that charge you to be there, like tour of Flanders.

But I mean, what a great business, right? Think about cyclocross. They charge. Yeah. But all that money goes back to our good friends at Flanders classics collects all that money. That doesn't go. Yeah. But if you look at cyclocross, for example, Spencer, it's different because, I mean, it's obviously

it's a small ecosystem, yeah, but, but you have to. It's sustainable. I mean, that is actually... But the riders are getting paid. The 10 top riders are getting paid to start there. Yes. You know, that's money that doesn't come from the team. Yes.

You know, so they get a salary, but they're getting a starting fee to, which is what ultimately cycling will have to do. People laugh at it, make fun of it, lampoon it. But Cyclercross, the business model of it is very good. Yeah. It has a defined product. You pay for it. it, there's profit sharing essentially with the top talents because they have to be paid to show up.

I think there's something to be learned from looking at Cyclecross. I mean, also think about Jerry Ryan. You talked about how much he spent 150 million euros about over 10-ish years. You know, that happens in U.S. sports. Like sometimes owners eat, they have to eat losses. They put money into the team, but it's worth it because eventually when you sell the asset, you'll make that back. The problem with cycling is there's nothing to sell.

There's no, think about an F1, what does an F1 team own? They don't really own that much except they own like a franchise spot in the sport that gives them access to revenues from that sport. So you might have to start thinking about that for cycling. Yeah, I mean, the difference with cyclocross is cyclecross makes it easier because it is a closed, very reduced surface, which you cannot, you cannot do one on road cycling. I mean, even to go to the tour is a, and I say this, with love and people have disagreed with me.

The level of, I would say, like, let's call it F and B, they call it in the industry, food and beverage. It is like, you can't buy a water. It's like impossible to get a water. It's unbelievable. Like, there are revenue streams that they could put in. Johan, question for you before you have to get going. Well, someone actually put out like an analysis of we were talking about who's better, Pagacho or Vanderpull.

I think it was, yeah, in the classics last week. And someone sent us something where they actually combined Vanderpull, Yonis, Rimco. And this is the last two years versus Pagachar. So this is three of the best riders versus him. Grand Tours. Pagachars won three. They've won one combined. Grand tour stages.

This is from a nice gentleman named David Brown, by the way. grand tour stages pagachers won 16 those three of one eight monuments five pagachar four the rest of them other one day races ten pagachar seven the rest of them in other stages three pagach are two the rest of them that is unbelievable yeah yeah bucket of that's crazy crazy how good he is we just have time for one question before you have to take off and this is a little this is like just a let's just go along with it i don't think it's going to happen this year but this Johan think Pagachar could try to win all three grand tours in the same year. I think physically he's able to.

It would need a special calendar, you know, not not right much else. You know, no classics, of course. He's able to do it, but it's not going to happen. You know, there's sponsor commitments. You know, he needs to be, I don't know if he's going to do the UAE tour or not. I think I saw somewhere that he wants to start in Tour Down Under his season at his own request. Why? So I don't know.

I don't know. Vacation, free vacation. I think to be far away from the Europe. I mean, anyways, guess what today? If you go to Tour Down Under, guess who's going to be there? The European media is going to go. You know, but but yeah, I mean, yeah, he's able to do it. But then the next question is, and probably the more important question is, can you have a strong team around him to defend all those three races, which is, you know, if Bogacha races, he's the favorite, you need to control the race.

Do they have the manpower? I mean, initially you would say yes. It's the only team who can actually think about that, but they cannot have the same strong team in all those three races. because if Bogacha does the three round tours, these other riders, they have to swap riders. Yeah. Like guys who do the Giro will have to save themselves for the Vuelta. And then no matter what, you have to have the strongest team in the tour. So, you know, you would say, well, nobody who does the tour or maybe one or two will do the Gero.

Logistically, it's not an easy, it's not an easy exercise. Well, think of the damage it would do to the morale of the team. because then he's hoarding every grand tour for himself. There's no chances for anyone else. And then you're asking those people to work for you. No, I don't see a problem. I don't see a problem in that with the writers that are there now. I don't think Del Toro would have a problem.

I don't think Yusso would have a problem. I don't think Adam Yates would have a problem. You don't think Del Toro. What about Omeida? I mean, I think Omeida is one of the best teammates I've ever seen. he's pretty selfless. But I guess these guys are selfless because they know that they get a chance. I mean, I think he could have done this in 2024.

I think he would have won that Valta, but then he probably doesn't win the world, right? Is that a bridge too far? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And this is a sister question of that. This is from me. Are they, is the Valta starting in Monaco next year to try to get him to do the race because it's

right next to his house? I saw an interview of the director of the world, Javier Guillen, who said, you know, well, you know, it's close to his house. It's as close as possible. So if there's any year, this is the year. But I personally think that Bogacha is going to be more and more selective with his races. And, you know, all the races he's doing, he's riding them to win. I don't know. It depends.

I think the Vuelta is always, I mean, especially for writers like Taday and Jonas, and it's always a last minute decision. First, focus on the spring and the tour, and then we see what we have left. So this is a decision that will be made on the go, in my opinion. He's not doing the Giro. So it is possible during Vuelta. Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, it's a fun thing to think about.

I think it's probably, you would never recommend it for someone. It's just too physically taxing and then too taxing on the team, like you say. Yeah. Yeah. Three, three week races probably would have to shrink them for someone to go for that. But anything else, Johan, before we take off? No, I have to go, Spencer. I'm running late.

Okay. So thanks. And speak next week. All right. Talk to you soon. Okay. Bye.