THEMOVE - Giro d'Italia Final Breakdown | THEMOVE

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Johan Bruyneel, George Hincapie, and Spencer Martin break down how Simon Yates came from behind to claim a surprising overall win at the 2025 Giro d'Italia. They dive into exactly what happened between Carapaz and Del Toro on the decisive Colle delle Finestre, which resulted in the two highest-placed riders heading into Stage 20 being unable to work together to reel in Yates as he rode clear to conquer the same climb where he lost the race in 2018. Additionally, they go through a few of the non-GC highlights, including Lidl-Trek's incredible race, Wout van Aert's return to form, and much more. Tushy: Over 2 million butts love TUSHY. Get 10% off Tushy with the code THEMOVE10 at https://hellotushy.com/THEMOVE Saily - Get an exclusive 15% discount on Saily data plans! Use code THEMOVE at checkout. Download the Saily app or go to https://saily.com/themove . Pique: For a limited time, get 20% off for life plus a free Starter Kit (rechargeable frother and glass beaker) when you grab the Pu'er Bundle. With Pique's 90-day money-back guarantee, you've got nothing to lose. Try it now at https://www.piquelife.com/themove and feel the difference on your next ride. Ketone-IQ - No sugar. No artificial ingredients—just pure ketones in a convenient bottle. Save 30% OFF your subscription order. Go to https://ketone.com/themove to get yours! Ridge Wallet: Right now, Ridge is having their once-a-year Anniversary Sale. Get up to 40% Off at https://www.Ridge.com/THEMOVE. Just head to https://www.Ridge.com/THEMOVE to see their biggest sale of the year! After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. PLEASE support our show and tell them our show sent you.

What an incredible climb it did. I mean, fastest climb by four or five minutes ever. Three weeks into a Grand Tour. Tactics to perfection. It was just and one of the most exciting stages, I think any of us watched in a Grand Tour in a long time. And this is what cycling is all about. Like bring it down to the wire, the last epic stage and you see big differences in GC. It couldn't have been a more exciting Giro and the way it ended was super, super fun to watch.

["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Everybody, welcome back to The Move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johann Bernal and George Hincapie to break down exactly how Simon Yates won the Giro d'Italia, as well as a few other odds and ends that happened throughout the stage as we look throughout the race.

As we look back on it, the final GC Simon Yates wins his second grand tour, comes back seven years after collapsing in the Magalena Rosa to win the Giro d'Italia with Isaac del Toro, the young 21 year old Mexican in second, 346 back in Richard Carapaz in third overall Canadian, Darcy and fourth. Don't forget about them. But before we get into these guys take on how this happened, let's take a quick break to hear from our partners. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Tushy. What if I told you the most luxurious seat in your house to listen to podcasts

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I think the big question we wanna start with, stage 20 of this race, it was kind of a slow simmer up to that point. We knew the finesse would be important. I didn't quite see this coming with Richard Carapaz having his EF team blow it up about let's say 50 meters into the climb into a what into what 18 kilometer long climb at 9% average. He goes on to put a minute about a minute and a half into Carapaz and Del Toro on the climb and then extends his lead over the top with Bob Van Aert waiting for him on the other

side to win the overall by, I would take a bigger margin than in probably the margin was in reality because they sat up behind, but Johan just up top. I mean, what, what happened here? I just, I have been thinking about this for days and I can't fully wrap my head around how del Toro and Carapaz let this happen. No, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, there's different, different ways to look at it. I think first and foremost, I think we have to acknowledge,

uh, that Simon Yates is a high quality writer, uh, one the world. It's been, it's been a lot of years ago, yes, but he's, you know, if you look at his build up through the season, you know, they always say, well, you know, the grand tour is the art of being good in the grand tour is getting in good form on day one and keeping that form. So basically everything you've done before, the three weeks, it doesn't count because it's supposedly wasted energy. And if you look actually at Simon Yates, his season right now, and I have it here in front of me,

he did two races this year. He did Tirreno Adriatico in Catalonia. He finished 14th in the GC in Tirreno and ninth in Catalonia, would say 14th in the GC in Tirreno and ninth in Catalonia, we'd say moderate for a rider like him. Before this Giro, not a single top five place. He got his first top five of the season in stage nine, in stage nine on, on, and this was the gravel stage. Other than that, if you look at his results during the Giro, uh,

not a single stage win and just one other, no, two other top, top fives, a fourth place and a third place. And other than that, he was just always there, never lost too much time. He lost a little bit of time here and there, but he was just constantly there, very regular. And that's actually the ideal formula to win a Grand Tour because at the end of the three weeks is the guy who has mathematically the least time. But in stage 20, in my opinion, you know, because there's, there's theories that say, yeah, you know, they had it all figured out. They were waiting.

I think that's not the case. I think they started this stage with a plan saying, okay, we're going to have world one heart upfront, which was great. The way I saw Simon Yates ride on Call of the Finest, I think he started very cautiously based on what he had been feeling in the former stages. And he started to feel better. He grew on the Colo del Finestre. He got better and better. And the second part he was flying because he was

ahead and he started to feel great. But initially if you see what happens, Carapaz and EF blow it up, which I think it was a mistake on a one hour climb, but and Yates didn't react, maybe because he didn't have the legs and also because he had doubts and he got more and more and more confident. And you could see a change in his demeanor, a change in his style, a change in the way he was positioned on the

bike, the further we got up the climb, he was getting more and more confident by the end he was, he was flying up that thing. I think that's the first thing we, Carapaz and, and, and Del Toro encountered an extremely good Simon Yates on a great day. Number one, number two, I think they underestimated him. They didn't think that he was going to be one of the big rivals based on the fact that he had been losing little bits of time here and there. Simon Yates at no time in this Giro had been hurting Del Toro or Carapaz. And I think that's the first thing we saw that that's what happened.

Then the other things are circumstances which were in the favor of Simon Yates. But I think we have to highlight the amazing performance of Simon Yates on Color de Finestre. I think that's the key to his success. I don't know what you think, George. Yeah, well, I mean, for the last time he went up that, I think it was a colossal, um, low up. I think he lost over 30 minutes to Chris Froome, that stage. So he probably has been thinking about that stage.

What was that? Seven years ago, pretty much. Yeah. Seven years ago. Yeah. Every day this year trying to, you know, he had an accident with the stage, trying to prove that he can do make a difference on this particular stage. And like we mentioned last week, I mean, he was just quietly moving up the standings. He races for a very experienced Grand Tour

and Grand Tour winning team. And like you said, Jan, EF came into that climb, like they were going into a one kilometer climb. Like in the classics. This was a classic lead out. I mean, the best climbers on EF education, amazing world-class climbers couldn't even hold a wheel for 200 meters. And they basically let them out for definitely less than a kilometer. I want to say maybe 500 meters total.

That is going to put so much lactic acid in your legs. I don't care who you are, how good you are, this is going to affect you in an hour long climb, any day, anytime, any rider in the world. I think they just went way too hard at the bottom. Of course they wanted to go all in, but look, that's just, I was shocked to see how fast they were going. And I just couldn't imagine them holding

for him being able to recover, even though he did a great climb, but Simon Yeats just rode his tempo, caught back up to them. And I think as soon as he caught them, he can probably, a rider at that level, at that stage of a Grand Tour can sense the rivals and you can smell blood in the legs, so to speak, and took great advantage of it. And what an incredible climb it did. I mean, the fastest climb by four or five minutes ever, three weeks into a Grand Tour. Tactics to perfection. It was just... And one of the most exciting stages, I think any of us watched in a Grand Tour in a long time. And this is what cycling is all about. Bring

it down to the wire, the last epic stage and you see big differences in GC. It couldn't have been a more exciting Giro and the way it ended was super, super fun to watch. Yeah. I think, I think though, however, so let's, let's not forget for starters, the reason why Simon Yates won this Giro is because he was very strong on the hardest climb of the race. That's not even a discussion. Now, you could also say, well, what did Del Toro and Carapaz do? As I said, I think they underestimated Yates, first of all. I think both of them made mistakes. Carapaz by going early on full gas

and straight away trying to drop Del Toro. I think he was convinced he was gonna drop Del Toro. And Del Toro on the other hand, he had one mission in his mind. I cannot get dropped from Carapaz. And I've seen a lot of criticism towards Del Toro and UAE saying that, yeah, I mean, he should have pulled And I've seen a lot of criticism towards Del Toro and UAE, saying that, yeah, I mean, he should have pulled because he was the leader.

I can understand that kind of comment in the last part in the last third of the Coro di Finestre when Yates had like 40 seconds to a minute. Then Del Toro, he should have started to pull. I think he was scared of Carapaz and rightfully so. And I can understand, because I don't know what you think about this. You know, if you put yourself in Del Toro's position,

you know, he wants to hang on and he knows that Carapaz will do everything he can to try to drop you. Del Toro was able to respond to all the attacks and he rode quite smart. He came back always progressively. He didn't react straight away. He was very smart. Once he sees that Simon Yates is up the road and he's going a lot faster than they think. If Del Toro starts to pace, he should have paced, but he should have paced with something in reserve because he knows that as soon as he paces, he's going to have Carapaz attacking him.

So it's understandable that you're kind of hesitant, right? And Johan, would he really attack him with Yates like that far up the road? Because where's is then Carapaz is stuck in between the two of them. What do you mean? What do you like? Like with, let's say del Toro's polling, Yates is in the GC lead, the virtual lead. Everyone's saying, well, Carapaz would have attacked him, but where does Carapaz go exactly if he attacks on the Fenestra? Try to bridge up to Yates. But there's no, I mean, maybe he thinks he could,

there's no way he's bridging. I think Carapaz in my opinion, first of all, underestimated Yates and overestimated himself. Because nobody's gonna, both Carapaz and Del Toro on the Colo di Finesta. They were also on the limit. They couldn't go any faster. My impression is George, I mean, I would like to have your opinion on this.

And I said this on, on, on our podcast, on our last podcast, I have the impression that Carapaz, as soon as he saw and realized that he was not going to be able to drop del Toro, that there was a switch in Carapaz's mind, mentality, and his only goal was to make del Toro lose the Giro. What do you think about this? I mean, yeah, I didn't quite understand. I feel like, yes, you're a young rider, 21 years old, but being in the pink jersey, it's your responsibility to fight for the win.

No matter who is behind you, who's in front of you, you have to set a tempo and you have to, yeah, like you said, keep in a reserve and in case Carapaz attacks you, but it's your responsibility. I don't care what the director is saying. You're in the pink jersey of the Giro d'Italia. You need to ride a tempo. Not only that, but once you get over the climb on the downhill, it's like, go all in. And I don't see why Carapaz didn't go all in either because then they can at least, obviously

not with Wout Van Aert in the front, but at least keep it to win a reasonable range where maybe some of their teammates come back and they go to the front. They just sat there and they gave up another four minutes. Yeah, that was really negative racing. From that moment, that's where I really saw, okay, Carapaz really doesn't want Del Toro to win this Giro. He knew he was not going to win himself. And then that was actually shocking.

You know, you have the standoff between those two guys. Then you have Yates in the meantime catching up to Wout. Wout, I have a stat here also on wout, uh, he did the moment, the moment, uh, Yates caught wald van aard until the moment he dropped him off was almost 13 minutes. Yeah. I saw that 450 Watts. Uh, imagine a guy walt van aard pulling 450 Watts. Yates is in a, he's in an armchair. He's, he's, he's like, okay, I'm just going to sit here. Didn't look like he was comfortable.

So, but you know, I mean, imagine, I mean, in those 12 minutes, they took three minutes. Yeah. That was crazy. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. And, you know, and it's not like Watt got to go easy up the finestra. I mean, he had to go hard.

I calculated as Watts at 400 Watts for a minute and seven, an hour and seven minutes. Yeah. That's not easy to do. And then, and then turn around and do that poll. Not at all. Not at all. And I think, I think there, I mean, if we can, we can say, okay, gotta pass, made mistakes.

They'll totally make mistakes. In my opinion, the biggest mistake is, you know, when you're in a situation that you try to control the controllables, right? I mean, there's things that are going to happen in the race that you have no control over. I can understand, for example, that UAE and EF, okay, they missed the break. It's, it's a mistake, but it can happen. You don't know how your riders are going to react. Can I comment on that, Johan?

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Because I've read a lot of comments from all these so-called cycling experts. A lot of them are your good friends, Johan. Well, maybe not, but they're questioning. How could UAE let Wout well, then are called the road? Have you ever done a grand tour? Have you ever been to George and thank you for thank you. Have you ever been three weeks into a grand tour when a guy like while

Ben Art is on the up and can do let me let me give you notice that 520 watts for 10 minutes and it can draw pretty much anybody in the world of climbs like the Quaramond, the Pottersburg. His one, two, three, five minute power is better than anybody. Try to go into a breakaway with him when you've been pulling in the front for three weeks and he wants to get away. I remember many times guys like Vinakurav. Those were our worst nightmares because when those guys wanted to go on the break, it didn't matter how much we stood. The only thing we can do is try to limit the damage and keep them close. But you've been pulling on the front for three weeks and you just say you made a tactical

error because you're not going with Wild Van Arp, one of the guys with the best five, 10 minute power in the world. Yeah. That's just, you just can't go. I'm sure they wanted somebody there, but they probably just missed it. That's true. And I completely, I completely agree with that, with that statement. That's true. And I completely agree with that statement. That's the way it is, George.

People started, they tried to find certain sophisticated explanations. It's not that difficult. The guys are fucked. After three weeks and a guy like Walt Von Aert is unique. The proof, he has improved tremendously during these three weeks. He's unique. I think the only mistake that was avoidable that they made, uh, mostly UAE and,

and also EF, uh, because they had the same interest when a guy like, well, you missed the break because you can't, because you pay, you don't pay attention. Whatever done, you know, the break goes 30. Okay. Whatever. 30 writers. It's a lot, right? Uh, you know, 30 writers are going to take a lot of time. Yeah. But if you see that while Bernard is in there and you know that there's a climb that, that the hardest time of the Giro, you want to play safe. You cannot let what when art have 10 minutes, start the climb with 10 minutes. If they, if you any UE and EF together with two or three riders.

Set a temple and keep the break around five, six minutes. Wall of an art does not make it over the top with the best climbers of the Giro. And it's a very different game. That's the biggest mistake that they let them 10 minutes. I mean, because I mean, a lot of people don't understand the art of the breakaway. Yes, in a breakaway of 30 guys, 60, 70, 80, sometimes more percent of that breakaway might have gotten lucky. They might have rolled off the front, you know, gotten somebody opens the gap.

Nobody nobody's letting Wal-Bennard roll off the front. He's not getting lucky. He's so good that he goes when there was 100 attacks and everybody's in the triple red zone and they can't go anymore. He's that good. He goes, see you in the douches. I'm going right now. I mean, those guys like that can make a breakaway at the end of a Grand Tour pretty much anytime they want. And yeah, that's a breakaway. He end of a grand tour pretty much anytime they want. That's a breakaway. He was in any breakaway he wanted in the last week. Like you said, the only thing they could have done was limited the damage once he got up the road. Yeah. Well, that's the biggest mistake from both of the teams. Those are, that should be, you know, that should come from the car, these kinds of instructions, you know, like, okay, guys, okay, it's not good, the situation, let's try to improve it.

And that's where I see that they underestimated the eights because they were sure that the eights was not going to drop them. Yeah. Because if he eights doesn't drop them, it doesn't matter if an artist in front, he's going to pull. So that's, that's one thing. And then George, you know, I would like to know what you think about this. I have a theory. It's, it's, you know, maybe I mean, it's just my theory, right? You're probably not going to like it. But so we said, okay, gotta

pass races from a certain moment to make del Toro loose. Could it be, for example, the war of South American egos? You know, kind of us is is an established writer, you know, and the young upcoming guy, young Mexican comes and he says, okay, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm the guy here. It's always happened. Like the young guys had to fight against the older generation to prove it. That's one possibility. That's why I think Carapaz may have at certain, certain moments decided if I can't win you young Mexican, you're not winning this thing. You know? Okay. That's okay. Another possibility is

Carapaz writes for a team with, you know, he wrote negatively, right? He writes for a team with a known, I would say famous, twisted mentality. Could it be that there was an instruction from the team say, okay, we can't win, but this guy can also not win. And you know what? I say that George, because Carapaz rides for EF, right? Long time ago, if my memory is correct, in 2009, there was an American rider in the Tour de France on his way to Yellow.

The Yellow Jersey was part of a breakaway. This American rider is one of the three guys here on the screen. It's not you and I, Spencer. And- Riding for an American team. Riding for an American team. Yeah. So this American rider was on his way

to Yellow Jersey, part of a breakaway. I looked it up. It was stage 14 from Colmar to Besançon. Next door to my wife's hometown, by the way. Dijon, right? Yeah, that's right. So you were virtually in the lead at some point. And then all of a sudden, for no reason, no explainable reason, another American team, Garmin, Garmin slipstream, same team, exactly same team as EF starts to pull full gas with the only objective

to have that other American rider not take the yellow jersey. So I'm thinking, you it be that we are still having the same kind of twisted mentality? It's maybe far, far fetched, but something in something made me think, Hey, there might be something on something going on here. What do you think, George? The first part of the story is 100% correct. That didn't even though nobody will ever admit to that. I did get chased down because I was also an American and they did now want

an American on arrival team to take away attention or potential new sponsorship. I was messed up. I'm still pissed off about it. But I don't think in this situation that was the case. I actually think. Look, Carapaz is one grand tours. He's been there, done that. For him, getting second or third place is the same thing. It's not a big difference. And I think it was Isaac del Toro and UAE's responsibility to go all in to protect the lead at all costs, whether he's going to lose, lose it or not. I mean, second or third place is no different even for Isaac.

So it was his responsibility to chase it down. I don't think that happened, but it's definitely an interesting theory. Yeah. Well, sorry, Spencer, you know, I mean, it's true. If you look at the individuals, right? Uh, he's like Del Toro is young. He was in the lead, he was about to win the Giro, Carapaz has won the Giro already. It changes however,

if you look at it from a team perspective, UAE has won many Grand Tours. EF, if I'm not mistaken, has won one Grand Tour. The Giro. In their history. They could have used the Grand Tour. So I think the roles are inversed there if you look at it from a team perspective. Yeah, it's interesting for sure.

I think we should add context that George's team, HTC, had the best sprinter in the world at the time. And EF, then Garmin, Chipotle or whatever they were was had Tyler Farrar. I mean, there was like super intense sprint rivalry as well. I don't know if there's a big rivalry between EF and if there's a rival between EF and UAE it's one sided and UAE is not paying attention to that. The rivalry was more between thehips, support and search. Because at the time it was kind of like they were just trying to put the teams together,

get a big corporate sponsor in. Not so much the Sprinter. I mean, at the time Cavendish was winning pretty much everything he wanted to win. Although Tyler was the most amazing underrated US Sprinter in the history of cycling. Love the guy, incredible Sprinter. But at the time Cavendish was winning four to six stages a tour. Yeah, yeah.

And I checked George, you know, to add to the story in that break that you were in on the stage to Besson, Garmin Slipstream had a rider in the break with you. I don't remember that. Who finished fourth, Martijn Maaskant. I did my homework, George. I did my homework. I did my homework. Yeah.

And so, you know, there was absolutely no, there was nobody in the dangerous for GC and they had a good rider in the break who finished Ford could have won the stage. So I think they said they wanted to stay in the front for a wind. I remember that. Yeah. I don't know. It was like, Oh man. I think Spencer,

we probably need to cut to one of our partner breaks, but I got another story. See if Johan remembers it. Before we go to an ad break, George, you just mentioned, cause I'll forget to mention this after the ad break Del Toro, his responsibility to chase it down. Like where's the meltdown there? Like, I don't fully understand. Was he not told that by the team? Are we just seeing a mistake of why maybe it's hard for 21 year olds to lead teams? I don't have the answer. I mean, I think a lot of us, all of us were in shock just watching

the whole race unfold in front of our eyes going, what is happening here? Like, Pink Jersey needs to ride. It doesn't matter who's behind, who's in front of our eyes going, what is happening here? Like Pink Jersey needs to ride. It doesn't matter who's behind, who's in front, who might be attacking you. Like it's your responsibility. Yeah, George. I think one of the things that in that stage was the fear of everybody, all the riders and the whole, all the teams of that monster of a climb of Colo di Finestre. It's an unbelievable climb. You don't know. You don't know how you're going to be.

And let's not forget a very important piece to this whole outcome of what happened to Giro and which could potentially even make the relationship worse between Ayuso and Del Toro. Ayuso went home because he had a beast thing. Imagine a guy like I used to with Del Toro in the last day where this is a completely different story. We're talking about a different winner here. So he just basically didn't really care

that his teammate was in the Jersey, probably preferred just to go home and recover. He could have easily recovered, spent a couple of days in the group pedo and been the pivotal player on that stage. Yeah. Well, I mean, we don't know. I don't know how, how bad the beast thing was. Uh, but yeah, I mean, yeah, you're right,

George. Uh, it was, if you're in the lead, if, but if you have a teammate in the lead in a ground tour, you go home when they cut the leg off. You don't go home. You just, you go home when they cut the leg off. You don't go home. You just keep, stay there and say, okay, I'm going to try to hang in there and who knows what I can do. You know, even if it's to bring bottles in the first 50k of a stage. If you're fully committed to your teammate, if you're not,

then you probably go home for makeup, any reason. But if you're fully committed to the team and your teammate, you stay. That's also the team who has allowed him to leave. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then George is gonna tell a story that Johan and I do not know.

So I'm quite excited to hear it. We'll be right back. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Ketone IQ. You know, if you listen to the show, you know Ketone IQ and what their products are all about. But if you're new, Ketone IQ, the classic shot, gives you listen to the show, you know, ketone IQ and what their products are all about. But if you're new, ketone IQ, the classic shot gives you high performance energy with 10 grams of ketones and it's no sugar or caffeine.

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Save 30% off your subscription order go to ketone.com slash the move to get started on this again ketone.com slash the move. Okay, George what it lets blitz us with this story. We have no idea So as I'm watching the race unfold on set was that Saturday? Yeah, I've been all over the place the last two weeks. So my memory is fading. But I recalled a stage in 2007 Tour de France. We're in the Pyrenees. I make the breakaway and I'm with a bunch of climbers. It was a super, super tough day. And the last climb of the day is the Col de Paris-Sourde. Paris-Sourde. Paris-Sourde. Thank you, man the day is the cold. Peresurde. Peresurde.

Thank you. I know the stage. What was the climb before that? The cold Arraves? No, no, no, no. Peresurde was, would it be Aspen? Cold Aspen? It wasn't Aspen.

It was a really steep one that hadn't done small road. We'll look it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, I don't forget the name now, but... So I was in a breakaway with, I don't know, 10, 15 guys, 2007, I believe, I believe I was national champion at the time. Anyway, that doesn't really matter for the story, but I'm in the breakaway feeling pretty good. We hit this 10K climb. I think it was 10% average. And guys like Vinokurov, these big climber dudes, they start attacking.

I get dropped. Okay. And we got like 50K to go on the stage. And I'm not winning the stage. I have zero chance to win the stage. And my day's over. We're two and a half weeks into the Tour de France. I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to chill up the parry sword.

My day's over. I'm not going to win the stage. And I go to the top of that climb. I start heading down the valley to the Perrysourde. I'm just chilling. I'm eating. I'm looking for water. I'm waving to the crowd. All of a sudden, Johan gets on the radio. George, I got, at this point, I got two and a half minutes, I think, on the field. George, I need you to get to the top of the peri-sword before Contador catches you. Is that my accent? Yeah, pretty much.

And I said, what? You're telling me this now? Like, I'm 10k away in this valley. I've been in the breakaway all day. Now Johan is telling me I got the freaking sharks at two and a half minutes behind me that I have to get to the top of the climb before Contador. So here we go. I had to buckle in and just basically go threshold for the next hour through the valley, hit the climb. I'm going full gas. I think at that point, Dirk's in my car,

behind me in the car telling me the time gaps. And what happens? I make it. Contador catches me with 300 meters to go to the top and then it's straight downhill. He had just dropped Cadell Evans by like 10, 15 seconds straight downhill until I forget the name of the town. I know Yolande probably remember it. And then it's a 1K climb to the finish. So I see Conductor coming. I sprint to the top of the KOM. He catches me. I go down this hill faster than I thought humanly possible. We put 25 seconds on Cadell. So we've maybe put like another 35, 40 seconds total. And Condor wins the Tour de France by less than 30 seconds, I believe.

Yes. So that was a fun day. And thank you, Johan, for pushing me to get to the top because I would have never done it otherwise. But I mean, those are tactics that you played for a long time. And I think we're still seeing them work out. And right now and right in front of our eyes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Well, got a bit of a bigger gap than you, George. I know. I do remember. I do remember that we were nervous in the car because I knew that Alberto would attack like he attacked three, four times in the last two kilometers of the Paris. So we were nervous. I said, if George doesn't make it, if even if he catches him with 300 meters to go, you're not going to make it to the top.

And I kept seeing the cars and my shit I got, I started to calculate. I'm like, I think I'm going to make it, but it was super, super tough day. It's funny. You mentioned that George, I was thinking about that stage while watching on Saturday. I was like, oh man, Van Arte's on George duty. He's got to make it to the top. I think his team probably briefed him a little bit further in advance than, okay, from the base of the climb.

I mean, one question I have for you guys is, maybe this doesn't make any sense, but a 9% one hour long climb. Do attacks matter or like, like what if Del Toro, what if UAE was the plan was don't respond to Carapaz, going deep will not help you. Like I looked at Derek G, his power file, and he had one spike to 700 Watts, but other than that, and that was probably deposition,

he never really went above, he averaged like 407 watts for the climb and he was never really that much above that. It was almost equal because you're going to ride your threshold. Like you can't cheat an hour long. If you do the hour record, they're not like, okay, sprint in the middle, now rest. Like you're just riding what you can ride. What if these guys, these guys Spencer defied, like defied logics when it comes to climbing, even Contador, a guy like Contador. I remember then that day in particular, he told me he was watching the kilometers signs to tick down. In the last 5k, he said every time he saw the sign

2 to 300 meters before the sign, he was going to do a full gas sprint to that sign. And we saw it on TV. You can go back and watch that stage on TV. These climbers are guys like Kairapas and Del Toro and Connors all the time. They're unicorns. Not everybody can do it. They probably train it in training. But yeah, typically you want to just stay at threshold, not go over the red too much and do that steady pace. But these pure, pure, pure climbers, they can do it somehow. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I remember that. He told me that too. He said, you know, he took a point and he sprinted to that and then he looked for another point and he sprinted. Full gas sprint. Yeah. Full gas sprint. Crazy. It makes no sense, man. They can do it. They can do it.

Go to your local climb and try that. See how fast it takes you to blow up after one or two sprints. You know, they're proud. There is something in there though, about what he's doing is like breaking, he's breaking a big task down into smaller components. Probably actually is quite helpful mentally, but yeah, don't go, don't sprint in the middle of climbs

and expect it to work out. But I mean, they maybe needed Iuso, but I was just wondering, I was like, man, like why isn't he just, ignore Carapaz, just stay with your team, have your team have McNulty ride the first 10 K as hard as he can have Micah then try to take over after, but maybe that's the beauty of the finestra that you can't rely on teammates.

I mean, have we ever had like significant teammate help on this climb other than Kenny Alessand leading people out? Yeah, we have. Salva Deli or the... might help on this climb other than Kenny Alessand leading people out. Yeah. We have Salvador, Salvador or the, I was going to tell you. We're going down nostalgia lane. So 2005 spent a George, I told this story to Spencer in 2005, this exact same, uh, stage. Uh, I don't know if it was, I think it was the second last stage,

uh, of Finestre and ancestry air. I don't know if it was the second or last stage. Finestre and Sestriere, Savoldelli is in the lead. We didn't have a strong team with Discovery Channel for the Giro and Paolo gets dropped. We had no teammates but we found some teammates on the road. Maurizio Ardila and Wim van Huffel from Lotto. They got a little Christmas gift on the way, on the road. And Paolo, I think Paolo won, I mean, I don't remember the exact time, but it was like about 25, 30 seconds.

He lost virtually the lead on the Finestre. There was Rujano, Simone, and I think maybe Di Luca. I don't remember if it was Di Luca, but there was three guys, three climbers in front, and Paolo had virtually lost the jersey on the Finestre. And of course, it doesn't need any help in the downhill. And then the hell of a climb on Cestrier, but on Calle de Finestre, we had some, you know,

freelance teammates all of a sudden. That's good. I almost feel like this, stage 20, it's like a TV show we watched and we're like, well, what about this plot hole? What about this plot hole? Like it's mind bending the more you think about it. But Johan, I'm just thinking about your Carapace theory.

When they get over the Finestra, Del Toro probably was not as generous as he should have been on the Finestra. They get over Del Toro's on the front and he asked Carapace to pull through. Carapace declines. But at that point, they're only about a minute and a half behind Yates.

And if Carapaz really, was it really over at that point? Because it was over. Spencer, I think the moment I said the big mistake was to let this group with Van Aert take 10 minutes, even if they crest with a minute, knowing that Van Aert is there, they had no more chance because if you, let's just assume that it's, so it's, let's say it's Wout and Yates versus del Toro and Carapaz. If they're del Toro and Carapaz go full gas in the downhill and in the valley,

Yates is not going to do nothing. He was sitting behind the truck. Like, you know, it was over with one minute was too much. They were never going to make it back. I mean, a lot of people were sort of criticizing Van Aert at the beginning of the year. I mean, to me, he's the VIP rider of the season so far. I mean, even though he hasn't won as many races as he'd like to. But what he's done in terms of leading out

sprinters, you know, being the most pivotal guy for a guy like Simon Yates, top three, top four, and all the biggest classics in the spring. I mean, what a season he's having. And let's not forget Spencer and George. This is just, I mean, imagine with this base form now, if he stays healthy between now and the tour, the tour is not gonna be funny for a lot of people

with Wold von Arkt on tour form. Yeah. I agree. You know, he's getting back to being, I mean, he was a great, I mean, he won a stage, a great stage, did some incredible things. I mean, the won a stage, a great stage, um, did some incredible things. I mean, the way he can help a team on all different terrains is just insane. Um, so hopefully, you know,

hopefully he can stay healthy and, uh, and we'll see. I mean, I would love, of course, you know, Visma wants Van Aert to be at his top and they want to try to win the tour, but I would love to see Van Aert have more opportunities for himself. You know, it's a guy who deserves really to win more races. Well, I agree. I was putting my five year old son to bed last night. He goes, I still can't believe Van Aert won that stage.

Still thinking about stage nine, but outside of winning that, Envy's been needed this think about it. So the 2023 Vuelta, they go one, two, three, they sweep the grand tours, almost though like they've, they angered the gods, the cycling gods with the way they handled that. And then it's, it's tough times, you know, from then on, like they've not, they obviously get second with, with Jonas, but that was more like Jonas is just like personal excellence. Like as a team, it's been a little clunky. They come into this race. They got a lot of bad luck, Spencer. They got a lot of bad luck,

a lot of crashes, lots of injuries. I mean, they like, half their team has like taken out long-term with kind of odd illnesses and crashes. They come into this Volta or this Euro without, but not a lot of fanfare. I think George saying he likes Simon Yates the last rest day was like maybe the only person in the media who picks Simon Yates. And then they win this against a stacked UA team.

Really incredible. But if you go back and look, obviously Simon Yates, we should say amazing. I think Johan, I don't think I said this, but on the Finestra, I calculated his effort at 6.2 Watts per kilo for an hour at altitude, which is really impressive. Just to compare that, I have Pagachar stage 20 last year,

Monte Grappa, which is shorter, 45 minutes at about 6.4 Watts per kilo, lower altitude and shorter. So 6.2 for you is super impressive. Yeah. Yeah. And, but, so yeah, it's excellent. Also great time trials. That's not going to be remembered about this race that he was really good in that stage and time trial put time into almost everyone except Derek G in the GC also didn't crash. I believe,

I believe he's the only one of the top GC guys not to go down or at least I didn't see him go down, but Van Aert, so he wins stage nine. He's sick before that almost went stage one and then he leads them out to win stage 12 in the sprint and then he wins him, helps them win the GC and then he wins them the final stage with that lead out of Olaf Koi. So yeah, pretty good. Sure to tell you a down zero, but pretty good for Walpinart. Yeah.

As good as it gets. Well, should we take one more ad break and then we'll do like odds and ends other things that aren't the GC from this Giro d'Italia? Sure. All right. We'll be right back. Everybody this episode is brought to you by Ridge Wallet. This Father's Day, give your dad the upgrade his pocket in his back. Well, thank you for a brand new Ridge Wallet. I've got to admit, I was a big wallet guy. I had the George Costanza fat wallet for years.

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you check out, they'll ask you where you heard from them, please support the show by saying you heard them from us at the move. All right, let's get back to George and Johan talking about the zero. Okay. So Simon Yates, Johan, just, I want to get your take on this. Actually, I'm stealing this from Daniel Freebit just to give him credit, but so Yates doesn't crash or at least we didn't see him crash. I think the only GC contender not to wins the race. Like, are we going to see, and I don't even know what this would look like. Like, is this the next frontier in advanced analytics? Like, Hey, actually not crashing is

super, super important. We should do everything we can not to do it and like see different strategies of writing and placing it like, is this luck or did like Visma come in with a plan not to have him crash? No, no, that's not, no, you can't plan this. I don't think so, George. I don't know what you think, but you know, listen. How many times did Lance crash? You know, seven years. Not many times. Once or twice, Max?

Yeah, yeah, but you know, it's also, you need an extremely strong team to do that. You need a team that basically can ride next to the Peloton at any time. Yeah. I personally think, George, you know, not to diminish, you know, your era, but the level of this peloton is so high that it's impossible to be so dominant, to be really around your leader and never be disturbed by anything or anybody. That's just not possible anymore.

No, and you see it in the lead out trains as well. Like in Tour de France, you have, I mean, back in the day, it was one dominant team, you know, that could do it. Now there's five or six teams that are doing it. And it's just, you got to find the right, the right wave, which team is going to go. But yeah, it's the, the level is a lot higher. Well, it's funny. You mentioned that transitions perfectly.

I don't know if you guys noticed this, but the lead outs here would be like sprint lead outs, like 65 K an hour cruising speed before they get into the sprint. That's like 40 miles an hour. I don't believe a single bunch sprint was won by a rider that did not launch first. And so it's just, if I was a team or a rider looking at that, it does seem like,

I wonder, I wonder if it's the super, super high speed. This is just making it harder to come around people because it was almost every stage of the rider with the cleanest, like the cleanest lead out and went first. No one could come around them, which kind of makes sense. Cause how are you going to sprint it? I mean, how fast could you even possibly sprint? Could you go over 50 miles an hour in a flat sprint? Yeah, but you know, I think also one thing to have in mind Spencer is that, I mean, with all the respect due for the riders of the Giro

and the sprinters, the really top top sprinters of the world were not here, right? The pure sprinters, those are the guys that can gain positions, right? When they come out of a wheel in the last 50 meters, sometimes even, look, Cavendish sometimes came out of nowhere. But it's true in this Giro, I think you're right. Everybody who launched first won.

And we saw some riders coming from behind with higher speeds, but they just didn't make it. Caden Grosz, for example, a few times had an incredible speed, but it was not good enough to win the stage. Well, here's a super interesting thing. You'd think with that logic, you'd say, okay, so the team that's fully focused on the sprints will win, right?

Like Alpecin or Picnic. But actually that's not what like if you think of yesterday's stage in Rome, no, and once Van Aert got healthy, it's like, well, you can have all the riders you want, but if a superstar at the level of Van Aert, like George was saying about his power to get in the breakaway, it wants to be at the front

and wants to lead out his rider, it's possible that no one could even, like what lead out train can even challenge that? So if you look at stage, the last stage Spencer, I mean, I, Fini and Van Aert, what are you going to do? I mean, what are you going to do? I feel he has this, this crazy ability to ride like the, the, the, you know, from 700 to 400 meters to go like so fast.

I mean, there was not even a fight. There was not even a fight for position. So Koi was just sitting there, didn't move and, you know, just launched whenever he decided to. Those are two of the biggest engines in the sport probably. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you noticed too, it was kind of uphill and Van Arts sprinting as hard as he can. So it's like, yeah, like you can't move up where you are is where you are probably if that's happening. But the sprint tally, Olaf Koi two wins, Kaden Grubbs won,

Casper van Uden won. So not a sprint heavy race you'd say, but Olaf Koi 23, we should also say Casper van Uden, also 23, really good Dutch spinner. Olaf Koi 23, two zero wins in this year, I believe three total in his career. That's quite a lot. And he almost has 50 total wins, I think,

as a 23 year old, which is crazy. Leaving Visma, correct, Johan? Decathlon. I mean, so I guess A, is that a good move? He needs to go to the tour and he thinks he can do it. It's gonna be a really good move for his bank account. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

All the decathlon He can buy. I mean, listen, it's, it's Decatalon is, uh, they've improved a lot. They've made, they've come, they come from far and they've, you know, the, the whole system has changed there. It's a different organization. Uh, they're doing things right. Um, it's, I think the best French team by far. Um, and they, you know, money talks, you know, it's it was I know the offer, it was a great offer. Nobody else would pay that amount of money. And yeah, I mean, if you look at it, first, you could say, well, you know, it's too much money. But then if you think I mean, the 23 year old,

and he has so many wins already. I didn't know it was 50. I thought it was more like 40, but anyway, 40 or 50, it doesn't really matter if you're 23 years old and you've won 40 races in the professionals, that's like unbelievable. So, and he's gonna win a lot more. So he's 41 now, could be 50 by the end of the year.

What's the number, can you say? Three million. That's a lot of money. Yeah. Is that Euro? Euro, as I said. Three million Euro, so for sure, I think it's going to be three years,

so it's nine million, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it does feel like an overpay, but if you think about to decathlon, this is another thing to watch as we advance, decathlon feels safe points-wise, but teams that probably didn't think that B in the points battle are now in the points battle,

and nothing can get you out of a points jam like a sprinter, even if they're not winning, they're just finishing top five consistently, that could be worth the three million euros if he ends up keeping them like healthily in the promotion zone. Yeah, I don't, I think at this point Decathlon doesn't have to worry about relegation. You know, they're, they're, they're safely in the middle, middle, top, top, even in the top, I would say. Yeah. And I mean, you never

know, you never know what, like look at, who would have thought Kofidus, Johan would be relegated. It's, I saw it as a real possibility. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Kofid, a team like that. Other, other things we should mention, Mads Pedersen, a little Trek, fantastic.

Giro, would they win like almost half these stages? Six stages. Yeah, six stages and held the Jersey through the first couple stages. Like really, really impressive. Like what do you think is Pedersen? I can't imagine he was thrilled when he heard he wasn't going to the tour,

but do you think he's happy now that he came to the Jiro? George. I would, I mean, yeah, like I think he's happy. He's had an incredible spring. Giro could not have gone any better. You got like that's done every race you can possibly imagine doing and why not take a little break in the summer? Yeah.

And another thing I want to mention, Spencer, you know, we were talking about what one art a lot, I, a few, a few weeks ago, I said, and I have to say, you know, I was, I was wrong. Uh, I said, you know, the participation of what one art in the Giro doesn't make any sense to me. Uh, you know, it's for a big check and nothing else. Um, I think, I think I have to swallow those words. Uh, you know, it's for a big check and nothing else. I think I have to swallow those words. You know, it was a great Giro for him. Probably also for a big check.

Not gonna deny that, but you know, he definitely used the Giro to be back to the world, what art we all wanna see. And I think that's great. Yeah, he's like, he's cooking at the right time going into the tour. Like he's a different writer than when he went in. Amazing to think he almost won the first stage

knowing how sick he is in retrospect. And I mean, what, like, what were your guys' thoughts on the course in general? Like, I know that the Giro is married to this idea that you go, they go south to north almost every time. I think Johan, remember in 2009, I think they went North to South and you guys finished in Rome with the time trial. And like, is it time to shake this up? It just felt like for a long, for a large portion of the race,

we were just waiting, waiting for the third week, which is becoming very common at the Giro. And it's like this. It's the race doesn't fall into like a full malaise cause there's a GC anxiety, but it just makes it feel a little disjointed. I feel like I don't know if there's a solution to that. That's not cutting up and down Italy though. I think, I mean, I think the course provided great action,

suspends to the very end. And that's what I think that's what the fans want to watch. So I don't really see a need for a change. I think it's also what the fans remember. You know, we all remember, we will all remember stage 20, you know, nobody remembers Albania. So I think, I think everything concentrated in the last week, it brings a lot of suspense.

I mean, we couldn't have asked for anything better, you know, until 45 minutes from the finish, we didn't know who was going to win the Giro on stage 20, which was amazing. That's a very good point. Yeah, that is what we'll remember. We won't remember anything else. I mean, think about this, the year Froome won, 2018, that started in Israel. Like who even remembers that part of the race?

I think Froome did crash in Jerusalem, but it's really odd how your memory works with that. So looking to the future, our next, our last topic, couple of things. We have Simon Yates winning. Oddly, this is kind of an odd thing. If you think about, I think I said the first rest day, a rider who have, who the rider that will win this will have won a grand tour before. And you go back,

it's almost every grand tour now is won by riders who have already won grand tours. The exceptions are Sepp Kuss, Jay Henley, Teo Gegenhardt. That's like in the last 12 or 16 Grand Tours. So we're like getting just the same riders winning. I didn't expect it to be so many. That was surprising to me. But Primoz Roglic crashes, 35 years old, leaves the race. Of course, that means he's gonna come out

and win the Vuelta a España in classic Primoz fashion. Juana Uso, young rider, leaves the race. Derek G does really well, finishes fourth. Let's just break these down each. Where is Red Bull and Primoz Roglic coming out of this race? Is Red Bull looking to the next generation of GC riders or are they sticking with Roglic? You can't stick, I mean, listen,

Primoz is a great rider, right? I mean, I don't know how many years he's going to continue racing, but this was another one of those races where Primoz had a lot of bad luck, I think four crashes, right? In total until he abandoned. On the other hand, you know, it's too many crashes. You know, this is not a coincidence anymore, right? It is, it is definitely a problem. Um, but in terms of his team, they need a plan, you know,

they need to look for the future. Uh, Primos is at his maximum. He's not going to improve, right? He's, if he stays the way at his level, he can win other big races still. Um, I don't, I'm not even sure if he's going to go to the Duel to Aspen. So I think he will race the Tour. I agree. I guess you're right. And he could potentially have a great build up to the Tour.

I mean, when he gets past his injuries, had a really solid, built a really solid foundation in the Giro and you could take advantage of that and race like the Tour de France if you're staying healthy. Yeah, I know. For Red Bull, it was definitely not a good Giro. It was a bad Giro and you could take advantage of that in a race like the Tour de France if you're staying healthy. Yeah, I know for listen for Red Bull it was definitely not another good Giro is bad Giro. I mean they got the stage with him in Nico Denz but that's not what they came from for you know I mean I was joking today with someone I said you know the biggest publicity that Red Bull had in the Giro was that Formula One car with the specialized bike on top spinning around in room, you know?

Yeah. That was their biggest publicity. So definitely they need to go back to the drawing table and figure something out because I don't know, Primoz, obviously bad luck, Dani Martinez was way below his level. They lost Jay Hindley early. So, you know, it all went wrong for them, right?

But they need to, yeah, they need to get their back, themselves back together and do something differently. It is impressive they want to stage. Nico Denz, that's not where you're counting on him for. He bailed him out there. They did finish six with a 21 year old, Giulio Pelasari. Is he a fully polished GC prospects? No.

I mean, do they have to go to the transfer market, Johan? Like to pick up the post-primos? Who? Who's there? I mean, if you look, I mean, I would think this takes us to our second guy. And I know you're going to say he's in a contract, but contracts don't mean anything anymore. Juana Yusso.

I mean, where does wanna use so fit in? No, not in Red Bull. And they have a really high buyout clause. Well, yeah, George, we discussed this already. I would want to see these buyout clauses, how they would hold up in a normal court of law, not in a sports court, but you know, if you go to a normal court,

I think that's illegal. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I cannot see one or you'll still end up in Red Bull. I could see him end up in Movistar. Yeah, I don't know. They would have to get into their piggy bank for that. Yeah, that would be, yeah. But George Movistar is in a great situation. They just renewed till 2029 and they got a foreign investor with a lot of money. I think it's, I don't know if it's an Israeli Qatari fund or something. So yeah, Persebi Unzuwe, I don't know the nationality, but UNZU is sold a big part of the company to a foreign investor. So they, they, yeah, they, they can have the money if they want to. The infrastructure is not, it takes a special person, I feel like to thrive at the,

cause it's more laws, I fair free flowing. You're not as controlled. Also money and well money, but also, I mean, like these, and I'm like, and mentality money and other mentality. They're building kitchen. But I think the playbook is there's so many transfers that have gone on over the years. The playbook starts become more and more easy to follow. Of course it's always evolving, but these teams, they, they, when they

bring in capital, we're seeing them now with little track, they get a lot better. Yeah. I think, I think Spencer, we're going to see a surprising transfer for next year. Oh, he knows something. You know, that's all I'm going to say. If Tade to Ineos lock it in, it's happening. But here's my next one. Derek G fourth in this zero. Amazing. Even more impressive when you consider, I believe he was the only of the top four

that lost time on stage nine because Carapaz or didn't, I mean, Carapaz and Yeats lost time. And on stage one. On stage one. Yeah, not a great way to start the race. Had a bad first 10 days, but, or first nine days. Gets fourth, big talent, kind of an unpolished gem. I guess that's someone Red Bull could be looking at.

Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, yeah. But you know, it's, it's not like, Derek G is discovering himself as a stage racer. Um, but he's not one of the big names that you can really build the whole team. I mean, there's not that many. There's, there's, there's, there's today there's Jonas, uh, I use was a talent, uh, del Toro. We'll see now. I mean, this is obviously a great, a great talent who is going to make it in the, in the grand tours.

Remco is pretty good. There's Primos and there's Remco. Who else is there? There's nobody else. Well, we wouldn't have said Simon Yates. I mean, it shows you there is value sitting out there, like in an obvious grand tour winners waiting to be like, Spencer, we already said it, but you know, George, you remember in the trades and transfers and we said, what's the biggest transfer of the year? I said, Simon Yates is the biggest transfer of the year. Oh yeah. And before we go, so Simon Yates wins this. He's going to the tour. Yeah.

He's like, that's where I will not be at the tour. Richard Carapaz. We'll be at the tour. Who, He's like, that's where I will not be at the tour. Richard Carapaz will be at the tour. Mm-hmm. Who, how, like, will they have, like, A, I guess, A, where does Carapaz go from here? He's in a contract year, so he's probably gonna change teams, maybe, next year. Stay at the same team,

and then do either of these guys make an impact at the tour as leaders. George. I mean, it's, back in the day, I say it's really hard for these guys to recover from the tour. But I mean, Pogachar and all these guys are rewriting the playbook and they recover. Not only do they recover, they win. Carapaz is an experienced rider. I think he'll know what to do in between now and the tour and, you know, not overdo it, not undo it. But I'd imagine he shows up ready but you know

once you throw in Jonas and Pogachar we're talking about another level of GC riders and I don't know if he can quite beat those guys he probably can but he can certainly have a chance for the podium. Yeah I think Simon Yates is clear he's in a domestic role for sure 100% for the tour. in a domestic role for sure. 100% for the tour. Carapaz, I think Carapaz has set his mind on the Giro. He knows he's smart. He knows where he has his chances. He knows Jonas is not here. Tadej is not here.

Ramco is not here. I want to go for this. I'm going to say that Carapaz goes to the tour with another mindset as for stage wins and the polka dot Jersey, probably. Where is he next year? I think he's going to be on EF again. The only thing I remember Voders and the Netflix show is like,

we're paying him weight. Like we can't afford this guy. Basically where he was like, it's the most expensive rider we've ever had. So it didn't strike me as like, we're excited to do this again. But I guess maybe if they're happy with third place. He did a great Giro. I mean, he did a great Giro for them. I mean, you can't, you know, winning a Grand Tour

is very difficult, very difficult. Well, he could have, Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, he could have won this one and he didn't. And but like, how many grand tours could you win? Like, could you be even be in that position? It's very difficult to do. Not that many. Well, if they want to get a rider that could be guaranteed to be in position, you got to pay him five million bucks.

So I think they're in a good position right now with having him on the team. All right. Well, thanks guys. Anything else about this year before we move on literally and then figuratively, we will reject this from our brains and then we'll be fully focused on the tour by in a week's time probably. Okay, Spencer. Thanks George for joining. Yep. Bye guys.