THEMOVE - How Tom Pidcock's Comments Complicate Ineos' 2025 Plans | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin discuss how Tom Pidcock's recent comments about his Ineos team complicate their delicate truce, what Tadej Pogačar's comments about wanting to improve in 2025 mean for the upcoming season, and Astana's new partner before answering a few listener questions. StoryWorth: With StoryWorth I am giving those I love most a thoughtful, personal gift from the heart and preserving their memories and stories for years to come. Go to https://www.StoryWorth.com/themove and save $10 on your first purchase! That’s StoryWorth.com/themove to save $10 on your first purchase!

Professional road cycling is a team sport and you're part of a team no matter how good you are no matter how much of a winner you are you are part of a team and you need a team. That's probably why he's more at ease in mountain biking and cyclocross because that's individual sport you don't you need a small team around you of people who help you but in the race you're on your own everybody welcome back to the move plus i'm spencer martin i'm here with johan bernil we are going through the topics of the week including but not limited to tom pitcock's interview at ruler live the belgian coaching cycling coach situation tati pagacha claiming he's wants to be better in 2025 than 2024 help us all if that's true as well as astana's situation and some reader questions if you want to have your question read by johan bernil please email us at info at we do dot team

but johan tom pickock at real life ruler live yesterday i don't know if you've been aware but there's been a few stories coming out recently about the situation at in eos and between tom pickock steve cummings steve cummings we covered it i think it was last week or the week before officially left the team i i was at the event i thought thought that. How is that? Spencer? How, what's it like? It's it's, it's good. It's very, it's very hip. It feels like a little overly hip. If I'm giving my honest assessment, I've always, I mean, I've never been, and I've never, but you know, from a distance, like my first impression is like,

it's the gathering of the goofballs of cycling. So you're a goofball i am now one of the goofballs yes i've been drafted into the goofball collective but um you know i did i did meet sean kelly in person which i think was was probably worth coming just for that so i i would say kelly is probably not in the goofball camp so yeah um that that that was cool but it's really you know matt stevens is like the main presenter of of like the stage section of it which which is not as centrally focused as i thought it would be the stage is kind of in the back it's hard to find and but late last night tom pickhcock goes up on stage with Matt Stevens and the reason like Matt Stevens is like, like the mensch of all mensches.

He's just like, great guy, good vibes. You do an interview with Matt Stevens because you want yourself to look good. Generally is how I would think about it. But so, and Stevens even comes out before the event and says, basically nothing interesting is going to happen here because Tom Pickcock can't talk about the situation with Ineos. I feel like we talk about this every week. This show might as well just be called the Tom Pickcock versus Ineos situation podcast, but he comes out and kind of qualifies it and says nothing. We're not going to say anything about that.

Tom can't talk about that. And you know, what's interesting is there's Ineos, there's the director of performance, director of performance operations, Karsten Jepsen, Scott Drawer, head of performance, and then an Ineos press officer in attendance, which I kind of immediately think is kind of interesting. Why are they here? Maybe they just want to enjoy the event. It's fun.

It's in East London. There's beers on on tap like obviously that's a good time maybe they just want to have a good time but it's like well that's do they just want to keep an eye on them what's happening here he goes up on stage they're going to the year the first thing i found interesting is uh pickock says that he doesn't enjoy the tour. He's not enjoyed it. The two times he's done it and says that he only says he's targeting was targeting the GC at the tour because it's quote, and this is Daniel Benson wrote down the quotes. He was also there, um, an actual journalist, unlike myself. So I want to credit Benson for writing this down. I'm reading what he said or reading what he wrote. It's what it is,

what I needed to say, which is kind of an odd quote that makes it sound like he's just trying to appease people at the team. But then there's a question where Matt Stevens asked him if he was in a happier place in terms of clarity and purpose moving forward, kind of in reference to the change in staff that's come about, which we've at least insinuated on this show is due to Pickock wanting different people in charge of the team. And he responds, I talked to a communications professional earlier in the day, Johan, and he would, he suggested that's where you just say something nice, no matter what the situation is. Instead, Tom Pickock says, no, in fact, he's not in a happier place in terms of clarity and purpose moving forward.

I immediately thought that was like very strange, actually. I don't know. Like it seemed like Stevens was serving it up and Matt Stevens kind of tried to like make levity of it and move forward. But I thought that really stuck out to me and then the next thing is he said that he never watched his road racing stuff back that he only watched his mountain bike videos back kind of seemed like he didn't like road racing at all um he was lamenting that modern cyclists don't get a break and it's it's all go all the time i was thinking to myself this kind of seems like a nice time to take a break, but I guess he's here promoting a brand, but Johan, I walked away

from it thinking I've doubts actually about Tom Pickcock's not future, but just, I did not think that this comes easy to him versus someone like Tadej Pogacar, who it feels like he's having a great time all the time at the road events. But what are your thoughts on learning of this? Do you feel better or worse about Tom Pickock's future? I feel the same. I feel this. I think, well, first of all, first of all, given the situation and given the problems there's been and all kinds of controversial stuff that has been said i'm first of all i'm surprised he's there and that he's actually on stage being interviewed he has absolutely no obligation to do that so you know my first

guess would be that he wanted to be interviewed. Otherwise, if you're in that situation, it's better just, you know, he hasn't commented anymore after his, you know, deselection from the tour of Lombardy and he was at the first team gathering and he hasn't made any comments about it. The fact that he's up there on stage and I would guess that, and Stevens is professional enough, they have gone over the questions. Yeah.

So I'm kind of thinking my first thought is, okay, Pitcock wanted to be asked these questions and he wanted to give that answer. Otherwise it makes no sense to me. And I mean, yeah, people from Ineos in the crowd, the Apperson and the communication manager and the other guy. I don't know if, you know, they were worried about what he was going to say, but it seems to me from a distance, I don't know Pitcock.

I don't have, I don't, I have no personal relationship with him or anybody close to him. It seems to me like it's a guy who's going to say whatever he wants to say. He's not, it's not the first time he makes, you know, like strong statements and, you know, certain controversial, I mean, not controversial, but you know, we all remember, you know, after Bogacar's demonstration in in strada bianchi they asked him what did you what did you think and when you saw him go and he said what the

and the next question was well what what would you want to say to pogachar after this victory. And he goes, what the fuck? And so what I mean, my takeaway would be, first of all, he's still on Ineos and it looks like he's going to stay at Ineos whether he wants it

or not. There's probably a big part of him who doesn't want to go but be at the nails but then on the other side he has this huge contract and he's not going to get anywhere close to what he's making uh at the nails anywhere else so that's why he's staying obviously um and uh and then you know i mean if if you're if you're Tom Pitcock and, uh, we all listen, first of all, let's, let's, let's say there's no discussion about his talent, right? He's super talented.

He's one of the three, four, I mean, top five, most talented people in pro cycling. There's no discussion about that at all. Uh, and he's obviously paid accordingly for his talent and his potential, not for what he's done, but what he may do in the future. That's at least how I see it. Uh, I personally think that the big issue here is Tom Pitcock himself,cock himself and his personality. He's, he has a, he's a great rider.

He's a winner. He doesn't enjoy racing when he's not in for the win. That makes sense for somebody like that. But he also needs to realize that professional road cycling is a team sport and you're part of a team, no matter how good you are, no matter how much of a winner you are, you are part of a team and you need a team. That's probably why he's more at ease in mountain biking and cyclocross

because that's individual sport. You don't, you need a small team around you of people who help you, but in the race, you're on your own i think that's probably why that's his preferred terrain uh now of course there's not in cyclocross and mountain bike there's not the same contracts as on road cycling and if it's true that he makes that that big contract then it's only logical that he's not top team you know, there's ups and downs. There's pros and cons to everything for somebody. Okay, you get all this nice salary, but there's also obligations.

There's obligations to perform. There's obligations to be part of a team and there's obligations to represent your team. And I think that's being the issue right now with Pitcock and the situation he's in. I'm not going to go as far as saying that he's creating the situation himself, but to me, it starts to look more and more. I'm thinking more and more in that direction that he's creating this kind of

situation himself. He's, he's, he's a champion and he's he's focused on winning and he wants to win. And if you're part of a team, there's things that you need to take into account. It's only a rumor that I've heard, but I think last year, two years ago, he went in against the instructions of his team to a mountain bike race in

Canada. And that's where it started to be a bit, go a bit wrong. So, you know, it comes, it have to come from both ways. You know, it's, it's not just from, from the team that needs to fulfill all the wishes of the cyclist. The cyclist also needs to fulfill the wishes and the instructions and the demands of the team. It's not, uh, it's easy. You know, the, the cyclists are the stars of course, and they create a fan base and they're the personalities who are liked or disliked. And it's easy to hammer on the team and saying, yeah, you know, you're not taking care of the

rider. You're not doing this. You're not doing that. I'm not saying that what they did for tour of Lombardy was good. I mean, on the contrary, that was completely, I've never seen this before. And I don't think that that was the right way to do it. But to me, it sounds like we don't know really. We only know a little tip of the iceberg. And what comes across, and also after having seen the netflix and

is that pitcock is a super talent but he's not an easy guy and he is to me he sounds like it looks a bit like he's really difficult to manage in a group and um now if you see what he says on stage publicly uh doesn't even matter if his if there's team people there or not. He knows it's going to be published. And to me, it looks like it was a bit done on purpose that he makes those strong statements. And of course, you know, I mean, he may have said, I mean, you were there, so I don't know.

He may have said nice things too, but that's not the things that are going to be reflected in the titles of the articles on the cycling websites. Right. So, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a strange situation. I still, listen, it looks like he's going to be on Ineos for 2025. Um, but, uh, it doesn't look like it's the perfect atmosphere for him and for the team. Well, you're right. I mean, Stevens is the ultimate professional. Like he knows exactly what he's doing. And he definitely went over these questions with Pitcock.

So Pitcock said that. And the quote I'm looking up is right after that. He said, I'm not going to lie. So he said, no, I'm not going to lie. Like that's deliberate. You know, you don't say that. You don't say that on accident. The whole vibe of the interview, I just walked away thinking this guy doesn't like road cycling that much. And maybe not just the physical act of riding the road, but as you say, like, it just doesn't seem like he's interested at all in the team aspect of it. And he kept talking about mountain biking, cyclocross, the classics in the thing I'm

connecting. He didn't say this, but I'm connecting it in my head. Like the classics are the closest to the off-road stuff. And he said, like, I want to focus on those. Did not seem interested in Grand Tours, which I think kind of come closest to, like, where do we see Tadej Pogacar working for his team? It's at the Grand Tours where he's leading people out in the sprints. Have we ever seen Tom Pickcock?

Like, does Tom Pickcock ever do that? I can't think of a time when that's happened. I would think he has done stuff for the team but it's not in his dna you know it's he's a winner he's a leader since the young categories these guys that's just they when they write when they put the number on they're in for they're in for the win um listen professional road cycling is different it's a team sport and you need to you need first of all you need your teammates but you also need to be able to create a great atmosphere uh with your

teammates and with the staff and he's not helping himself with these kind of statements i mean on the way to the event i was thinking you know is india so over complicating it should the team just be pitcock like should he just be their big leader? But then you listen to him and you're like, I don't know how much road he wants to do. Like you, he's not a guy you can count on for 5 million. Let's just say he's making 5 million pounds, 5 million pounds of production. He's just never going to want to do that. Getting them off the team. I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseum is tricky because you're going to have to pay some team. What are you going to want to do that. Getting them off the team. I mean, we've talked about this ad nauseum is tricky because you're going to have to pay some team.

What are you going to have to pay a team? 3 million euros a year to take them? Like they don't want to do that. The thing is that Pitcock has a lot of cards in his hands also, you know what I mean? Whether he's on Ineos or not, he's damn good at mountain biking and damn good at cyclocross.

And he can do that with or without Ineos. That's a given. Going to have the same performances or better, whatever, if he's happier in those two sports. If he's not that interested in the Tour de France, he can find another team where he can do the classics also. Although I still think that Ineos is a pretty good team. You know, it's still, they, they're obviously not performing anymore to the standards that we had.

They, they, they showed us in the past that we were used to, but it's still, it's not a crappy team. You know, it's a super professional team. Let's not forget that. Yeah. I mean, my question is the thing that seems to, obviously the thing that gives them a lot of leverage other than his incredible as you say in mountain biking the guy is unbelievable at mountain biking like this kranz montana mountain bike race it was the week before the tour started you could argue why is he there that makes no sense that was one of the most difficult mountain bike races i've

ever seen in my life and he won it it. It was super impressive. But the thing that gives them leverage is this contract through 2027, high dollar amount, high pound amount, high Euro amount per year through 2027. Johan, who gave them that deal? That's the original sin right there. That's why they're in this problem. Do you have any insight into who signed that contract? I think it was still Brailsford. I think it was still Brailsford. I think it was still Brailsford. Um, I, I can't imagine, I don't think that Ellingworth had that kind of power and authority to sign off on that. And, um, I mean, here, you know, listen, hats off to his agent, you know, who negotiated that deal. It's Andrew McQuaid. Uh, he did an amazing job for his, for his clients. Um, and yeah, I mean, Hey, hats off to them. That's an

amazing job. Yeah. This, that contract should be just an advertisement for Andrew McQuaid. Like if you're a young cyclist, go find him right now. He will get you hooked up. But the whole thing, I walk away from this feeling, wow, this is way messier than I thought. You know, I kind of thought that they could move past this. Tom Pickock is a great rider. I thought, wow, there's a path here. And then it does not feel like there's a path at all. I mean, the fact that he was willing to be interviewed on stage obviously is the sign

that he wanted, he wanted out with those statements. Otherwise you just, there's no need for Pitcock to be interviewed. Absolutely not. I mean, Oh yeah, he's a, he's a UK star and it's in the UK, but you know, for him, it doesn't do anything. I mean, you say he was there to promote a brand or something, but, um, if you're in that situation and you're, you're on stage, you put yourself in a vulnerable position that you can be asked questions that you don't want to answer. He obviously wanted to answer those questions.

Yeah. I was thinking like, if I was a pro, a high level pro, you know, even for me, I'm thinking, I got to meet, I'm getting to meet interesting people, see people that I know. If I was, if I was Tom Pickcock, I, why I would just rather be an Ibiza. Like why am I here? I could be anywhere else in the world. So you're right that it, it, he must've wanted wanted to get a message across and he clearly got across. I mean,

just the last thing I was, I wanted to say about that. This is like, like, where is Jonas Vindigo right now? Johan, like, do you ever hear about him in the off season?

You don't because he's, well, is that a butterfly personality? He's obviously, he's training, he's resting, he's spending time with his family and he's preparing for next season um it's jonas is completely different we see we clearly see that jonas doesn't feel comfortable to be in the spotlights and to be on a stage and to be

interviewed you know we have to respect that and uh you know his interviews are always quite monotonous and you know he just just says the same things uh which i mean there's nothing wrong with that but that's not that's not his personality so finger guard is thinking about how he can close the gap with bogacar right now that's what he's focusing on yeah i mean that that seems in terms of production like being good at writing and having a long career that kind of seems like the recipe just go away focus on being really really good better than you were last year and don't talk to anyone it's not good for your brand maybe if you you probably shouldn't follow that advice if you want to be a big star in the uk but i that's all i could think about last night is like, wow, like that just feels very hard. It feels like there's a lot of pressure on them.

I even Pagachar who is visible. It does not, you never get the feeling that this is a burden on him. It just feels like it all comes so easy. Everybody, this episode of the move plus is brought to you by story worth. The holiday season is coming up fast and I want to give my loved ones something that makes them feel special and unique, just like the relationship we share. That's why I'm giving everyone I care about story worth. I hope they're not listening to this each week. Story worth emails,

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the move and save $10 on your first purchase. That's storyworth.com slash the move to save $10 on your first purchase. All right, back to the episode. So that so moving on Belgian cycling coaching drama that you'd be the perfect person to ask about this. Serge Powell's is the new head coach of a Belgian cycling. He was a former assistant coach who was passed over Serge Powell. His name is not Philippe Gilbert. Philippe Gilbert is very upset about this was, was tweeting. I believe is disappointed. That was a surprise.

Like straight after the news came out, he took it to Instagram, I think. Gilbert, I mean, Gilbert had been vocal about him being interested in the position. He had actually asked for some talks. There were talks with him and the Belgian Federation, but they chose to

to somebody who was already on board. So, Pavel was the assistant of Van Toornhout and also he's the, he was the the head coach

of the Belgian junior team. Obviously, he's already on board. He knows the system in the Federation and I think there's there's a few things to consider. I was surprised to

see Gilbert voicing his discontent, his disappointment straight away publicly. Uh I mean it's not because you're Philip Gilbert that you're entitled to have that position. Um I would I would actually argue I I personally think first that you're entitled to have that position. I would actually argue, I personally think, first of all, Pawel makes sense. They know his worth within the federation. And most likely, it seems that Belgian cycling is cutting down on costs a lot.

So Pawel has been a good professional cyclist. Won some races. Was on good teams. He was on Team Sky, by the way, also. Seems to get along really well with all the young riders. And more importantly,

I think he's not that expensive. Gilbert was probably, would come with a huge price tag, or at least that would be his ambition. So that's one thing to consider, which obviously if Belgian cycling is cutting costs and even not wanting to pay any bonuses anymore for medals, they're not going to put a huge contract for Gilbert. But for me personally, and I'm speaking from experience,

somebody who's been a champion, huge champion cyclist, which we can say Gilbert was a huge champion. He's been world champion. He won four of the five monuments. He won a bunch of races. So obviously a huge champion, great athlete. Usually they're not great coaches. Usually these guys are not a great coach because for them, of course, they have the talent. They're great workers, hard workers, but it's difficult for somebody who's been a great champion

to put themselves in the position of a normal cyclist, which the majority of the guys you have to deal with are just normal, good cyclists, but not super champions. So it's not because you're so-and-so that you're going to be a great coach. Quite the opposite, actually. Yeah, I was just going to say, I don't like this idea that,

oh, you were a great Belgian cyclist, so you should be the Belgian cycling coach. That's often actually how bad coaching decisions are made. What you say about the money makes a lot of sense Serge Powell's was a pro for 15 years I doubt he was ever making anywhere near what Philippe Gilbert was if Belgian cycling is cutting costs that's just they're not going to want to pay what Gilbert wants to make but Johan 16 pro wins I see on pro cycling stats, two or front stage. What about yourself? Great cyclist,

two, two or front stages. Great coach. I have more than that. I have more than 16 pro, pro, pro cycling. Yeah.

There's a lot of gaps on pro cycling. That's 36. How do you explain this? Great cyclist. Great coach. I cannot be, i cannot be a coach because i'm banned for life uh courtesy to usada and wada so um and then you know i think i think my time has passed anyway you know uh it's it's it's uh different cycling different generations. So I would never even think about, you know, that kind of position. But I mean, coming back to the Gilbert situation, I mean,

Van Avermaet was apparently also a candidate. They didn't consider him either. I think it's well thought off. And, uh, obviously they've seen things in search powers that they like and, and let's not, let's not forget, you know, working with, with sports federations, that's not easy. There's a lot of, I mean, it's not like you're running a team. Now, if you're, if you're the manager or the director of a team you're calling the shots you're deciding a lot of things federations it works differently you're not deciding anything except when you're in the race and and and in the in in the races that you're the coach

there's almost no communication with the riders because radio communication is not yeah that's a good point um no i don't think i don't think it uh it i what what gilbert says and i don't know if that's true or not he said that he never had a chance because it was always going to be somebody from inside so he was never considered seriously then the president of the belgian cycling federation tom van damma has refuted that said that they did consider it that they did have talks and that they just chose for what for them seemed to be the best option that made most sense end of story i mean if if you're belgian cycling who would you rather deal withels, who's made like a lot with a little for a long time, or Greg Van Avermaet or Philippe Gilbert?

I mean, it kind of seems like the obvious choice. You don't want to have some superstar. They're two different personalities also. I think Van Avermaet is more easygoing, also a big champion, but I'm personally placing Gilbert on a higher level as an athlete than Van Avermaet. They were both really good, but Gilbert, I think, has accomplished more. But I think the personality also, the ego of Gilbert is bigger than the one of Van Avermaet and definitely multiplied bigger than the one from Serge Powell's and the federation,

the federation knows that. Should we cut that? No, we shouldn't. I'm not afraid to say it. But as you know, Spencer, I can say whatever I want, whenever I want. And also the purpose of this show. What is the lingual? I guess you're right. Wow. I didn't realize how many more wins Gilbert had. Wow.

The great one I've ever met. I guess there was that point in time. What was that? It was, it must've been oh nine to 10 to 11 where he swept the classic he swept the ardennes i mean he was winning everything for a while but what's the lingual situation in the belgian national team is it mainly flemish mainly french do the french speakers just learn to speak yeah but that's not true gilbert speaks languages. I mean, he's from Wallonia. So, you know, his mother tongue is French, but he speaks perfect Flemish.

So it's not a problem. He could communicate perfectly. It's not an issue. Okay. So it's probably just money. If we're being completely honest, they just don't um what's going on there is that just like responsible belt tightening or is there actual money crunch i don't know i don't know what's going on um you know i just i just know what i read and

it's kind of uh you know the fact that they're cutting down the bonuses and of course you know if you have good riders a cutting down the bonuses. And of course, you know, if you have good riders, a lot of good riders, you need to make provisions and you have to be careful. But yeah, I think things are tight. You know, there's, there's been, you know, all the coaches, all the coaches have left, which is, which is very, very unique. Very strange. Yeah, it is very strange. up speaking of coaches today pagachar says he wants to be better in 2025 than 2024 is this possible but

should we just should we just stop podcasting now like what what does that look like uh yeah he said he said that he always wants to improve and he hopes 2025 he's stronger than 24 so obviously that means that he still feels that he's making progress um but i think everybody makes progress that's true jonas is going to try to be on a higher level and ramco is going to try to be on a higher level. So there's no reason why Oaxaca wouldn't try to be on a higher level. Now, if he still improves, I mean, it's going to be like a hundred percent win or I don't know. I guess, well here on a serious note, the,

I guess the obvious thing, it was just that we're thinking about it would be one of the, another monument. So it'd be like Roubaix or it would be the third grand tour. Yeah. I think, I think, I think what he's going for, I think is he, he made it quite a public. He, he wants first, he wants to get me lots on Raymond. Um, I think the way his planning is now, that's probably the monument that fits

best into his schedule. He's not been official about it, but I'm pretty sure he's not going to do the Giro. And to me, it looks like he's going to go for the Vuelta. I think he wants to take off the Vuelta as soon as possible.

Then he has all three already at this young age. But yeah, I mean, getting better, his team gets better, stronger. I think the quality that's coming in is probably at least equal or better than whoever's leaving. He's getting more and more experience also. And it looks like things at UAE are being more and more perfected. There's going to come a time where this stops. Now they're still riding the wave, the upward wave.

At some point it's going to stop and other teams are going to catch up. But for the moment, they have the snowball effect of Pogacar's success and everything seems to work. And then we're in cycling, who knows? Look at Visma this year. Last you know they won everything they won the three big tours and everything seemed to work and this year nothing seemed to work so it's you know next year everybody starts with a clean slate and starts from zero yeah i was gonna say in 2030 when you're a featured guest at ruler live you'll be you wanna you so we'll be there being asked, what happened to UAE?

Why aren't they good anymore? A new feature just came out about it. But there was an interesting thing in this, the latest Ineos Escape Collective piece saying basically UAE hires people that are really smart, like really good cycling coaches. And Ineos does sometimes feel like they overcomplicate that. Obviously, they hired Tim Kerrison. This was like back in 2011, I believe, who was a swimming coach. That worked out fantastic.

I don't think that could have worked out any better. So clearly, Tim Kerrison knew what he was doing when it came to cycling training. But it does kind of feel like they've tried to replicate that to their own detriment at times. Like maybe just hire people that are smart at cycling and can train cyclists. And that's what UAE does. Like they just hire these people that are fantastic cycling minds and it works out for them and they get better. Do you think it's possible? I'm not saying this would make any sense, especially in terms of team politics. Could someone win three grand tours in the same season? Could Pagacar have done that this year if he did the Vuelta?

I think it's a stretch. It's a stretch. It's not just the physical, it's the mental pressure and also having a team for all these three races around. That's the biggest challenge. That's the biggest challenge. That's the biggest challenge. It's doable. It's possible.

Right now, if there's one guy who can do it, it's Tadej Pogacar. I don't know if it's going to come to a point where he's going to risk it. I mean, if he wins the Vuelta and if he wins all the monuments, then maybe that's something that he says, okay, now what should I do to be Mr. Spectacular? And then maybe he goes for the three Grand Tours. But I think, first of all, winning all three, that's his first goal.

And it may well be that that's the way it stays. I don't think it's, I don't think it's a great idea actually to try that. To me, it kind of feels like if you went to a restaurant and tried to eat everything on the menu, it's like, even if that was an accomplishment, would you really want to do it just seems miserable like i i think it's something the media kind of wants more than any cyclist would want to do um and then you're right a bit like he's got to win san ramo and rube first those are not

going to be easy wins to come by i think he said he would die trying to win milano san ramo so clearly he wants to do it. It's very difficult to do. It's not like the other monuments where you can, there's any sort of place where you can just leverage being better than everybody else. And then he's got, still has Roubaix to do. He needs to be really a lot stronger than the others and still on the

podio, you know, to get that gap, that's not easy. I mean, he can get it, but then, you know, you need to also risk your life in the downhill. Yeah. You can also win in the sprint. Who knows? You know, with a little group. I think that's, that's probably the path there to win it in a sprint or make it probably the move is you make it hard on the chipressa i think that the mistake they made this year was it was too hard too fast they dropped themselves and then they couldn't make it hard in between i think you

have to keep it like full on in between the chipressa and the poggio so this the faster riders can't recover and then you out sprint them at the end. You know, if they were asking for advice, that's the advice I'd give. Like don't ever let that, I mean, it was so slow between those two climbs this year. I think Pickock was peeing, you know, off the bike. Like that's too slow. It's gotta be faster than that, that you can't stop and take a pee. Yeah. I mean, also rim was difficult and for a rider like like bogacar is

it's one of the most complicated ones yeah i mean it's i think it's i think it used to be the most boring classic it's now the most interesting one because bogacar can't just solo out the front it's like oddly become modern and it's become the best modern race because it's almost so old school that it's not hard enough just to ride away from everybody but before we get into the questions astana i we talked about it a few weeks ago i was wondering where's the money they've missed the they they missed like a what do they call that the uci security yeah registration deadline yeah and now it seems official that the name we were trying to figure out the name of this company i guess it's xds carbon tech from shenzhen china owns the team or is co-owner of the team and has also sponsored the team

they're going to be with a chinese license i just read today so obviously there's i think the kazakhs are probably going to try to sell the license smart it's a smart move if that's what they're doing you know it's great for them it's great for the kazakhs but it's it's strange that a company with that kind of leverage would buy a license, which is only for one year. Because 2026 Astana is not going to be in the World Tour anymore. A miracle would need to happen in terms of results to score enough points to get back into that race for the 18 spots. They're still gonna be doing all the big races,

because I expect they're gonna be first or second in the second tier classification, where Lotto Destiny and Israel Premier Tech were this year. So it looks like these two teams are going to be promoted. But Astana is not going to be in the World Tour anymore. So I don't know what the strategy is there. Obviously, what is it? XDX, XDS Carbon Tech. They're apparently a huge manufacturer of carbon frames. So they want to put their name on the map and also promote their own bikes. So Wheeler is out.

They're going to be riding XDS bikes. And from what I've heard, they're producing for quite a bit of brands. So I'm not worried that that's going to be a setback. The most interesting thing I've read is that they doubled the budget. Now, then my second question is, if you, let's say Astana is probably, I would say around 20 million right now. If, if XDS Astana is 40 million, then my question is where does the money go to? There's no,

there's no really expensive riders. So obviously they're going to, they're going to want to hire better riders in the future. But right now, if it's, if it's next year, if the they're gonna, they're gonna want to hire better writers in the future, but right now, if it's, if it's next year, if the budget is double, then somebody must have a great deal, uh, on the table or under the table, which, which could, which would also not be strange in the, in the, in those cultures. Vinegar up's getting paid 20 million more euros a year. That's where the budget's going.

With stuff like that, I'm always, you know, you always want to be careful. I wonder if the information was like, we have an aim to double the budget in the future. That must be what the point is.

There is no way that XDS Astana next year is running a 40 million budget. There's no way. No, it would have to be that Vinnie Crowe is just making a lot of money if that's the case. Yeah. And I mean, I'm doing some math actually.

So since, since we brought this up, actually you brought this up like an hour ago when we were talking, but so it seems weird that they're buying a team destined i'm looking at the relegation rankings they really can't save themselves so they're going to get relegated and then you start to think well is that so bad to be a relegated team because all you have to be is the second best second division team and you get a free pass basically to every race if you're the third best you get a free pass to all the one day races you don't get a free pass basically to every race if you're the third best you get a free pass to all the one-day races you don't get a free pass to the grand tours

they really just have to be better than archaea because archaea is also going to be relegated uno x won't make it so uno x actually could be harder though, to be better than, so can they be better than Arkea this coming year? That's the big question. What about Tudor? Tudor? That's a good question. Well, they scored more points than Tudor,

a thousand more points basically than Tudor this year. Yeah. But Tudor has, I guess they have Hershey Regas and Hershey. They have Hershey, they have Alaphilippe, there's another guy who went there. Is the answer to this problem signing Tom

Pickcock? That actually solves a lot of Astana's problems. And where does the budget they're talking about go? I mean that that would be the move it would be for any brand and especially a bike manufacturer having tom pitcock is like the golden ticket he will race all your bikes and he will be top of the world on all your bikes yeah put him on a strider he'll be out there at the kids event mopping up i mean you say like why are they doing this we pulled up

their website i'm looking at right now it looks like a and i say this with all due respect i would i would love to go to your factory xds invite me out to shenzhen i'll be there it it looks a little fake so if they're trying that's typical that's typical for those chinese bike manufacturer websites um i know in the past i've been doing some research there and been there a few times that's not um that's not a red flag it It's typical. It might be hard. And there might not be other teams for sale. Like if you think about it, like what, what are their other options? Like S R K would be.

There are teams that are for sale. There are teams that are for sale for sure. Do you think better than Astana? Cause Astana is actually not. 100% better than Astana. Like. I'm not going to say Intermarché. Shake your head.

There are teams that are better than Astana that would be willing to sell if the price is right. What do you think Astana sold for? It doesn't cost 20 million.

Let me tell you that much. Yeah, I guess 20 million extra. What do you think they sold it for? Assuming that happened. I mean, it can't be that much because it gives you nothing. But, you know, that's the thing about the licenses in cycling, right?

I mean, if, okay, if you have a license for two more years, you can say, okay, well, this is worth so much. We have the sponsors already committed. We have the riders committed. We have these entrances guaranteed entrances to all these events. That's worth something. In Astana's case, it's not, they almost have no sponsorship, except of the new Chinese money,

because the Kazakhs want to pay less and less. They don't have any good riders or not top riders. They have no more guarantee to ride these races, unless they can use the system and be the first or second.

What you buy is a structure and some vehicles, you know, buses, trucks, and some cars. That's it. There's nothing else. That's the weakness of the way professional cycling is structured. The economic model is messed up because there's no value. If you lose your sponsorship, you're done. Any other team, whether it's a baseball team or a football team or a soccer team over here, they have value. They own a stadium.

They have a fan base. If they lose sponsors, if Real Madrid if, if, if a Real Madrid, I'm saying Real Madrid because I live in Madrid. So if they lose their title sponsor for their jersey, it's not a problem at all.

They can just keep, go on, they'll find another sponsor. And even if it's less, it's not, it's, it's only a tiny bit of their income

because the income is in TV rights and tickets and merch. So it's completely different. Cycling is still, as of today, 90% dependent on sponsorship. And if your sponsor doesn't renew your contract, you're done. I guess the only thing I would push back on there,

I generally agree with you. The only thing I would push back on is, let's say they're buying it this year you are buying the last year of the world tour license so like rally cycling i watched them for years like banging their head against the wall can't get you basically can't get the race invites to score enough points to even have a chance to get wild card invites so if you figure well we'll buy a team with one year left on its license, at least we get to go to all the races and we have a chance to score the points

to finish in the top two of the second division teams. And then they have to take us the next year. That would be the one asset that you're buying, that you get the seat at the table. They're buying one year. They're buying that you get at the table they're buying one year they're buying one year and then normally they're buying another year which will be which would be guaranteed uh 2026. uh guaranteed to be you know one or two in the in the second tier division uh but they're not buying three years of guarantee they're not buying extra three years of

guarantee they'll have to fight for it every year whereas if you're a world tour team you have three years of guarantees yeah yeah so basically they have to be really good next year and then really good every year for the next three years and then maybe they'll be world tour again it is a little it's kind of bleak but it's better than starting your own team, you know, especially if you're Chinese. It's not, it's not the worst option, but I think there's better options. Reach out to Johan Bernil for, for better options. If you want to buy a team, he's got a lead on them.

So the first question, and again, if you want these red info at we do. Info at we do dot team. I was just reading Daniel from Queensland. That's who this is from. As a cycling fan since the early 2000s, I have very fun memories of the tours team at time trials from that era. One of my all time favorite stages is a 2005 team time trial, which memory memory serves was over 60 kilometers long and was an absolute nail biter between discovery johan's team and cst csc with the

two teams trading intermediate splits and a final winning margin of three seconds that's crazy by the way if that's true dave's a risky was in the yellow jersey and famously crashed within sight of the line to hand the jersey to lance armstrong for the first time that tour which he refused to wear the following day given the unfortunate circumstances of inheriting it until aso forced it on him i would love to hear if johan has any recollections of that stage this is a two-part question so just don't answer that yet also as a wrap-up for the year it would be great to hear your best and worst strategy moments, decisions from this season, positive or negative. But first answer that, that this is crazy, by the way, I'd forgot about in this stage.

Yeah, that, that, that I remember that team time trial for sure. It was, it was very fast. I think, I don't know, but it was close to 60 kilometers per hour. I think. Was it raining? No, it wasn it raining no it wasn't raining it wasn't raining um but it was super fast and and of course we had the split time so i knew it was going to be tight i i don't think that the victory of discovery uh was was thanks to the crash of zabriskie because this there were still you know five or six guys crossing the finish line, but it was super tight. So, yeah, I do remember that. Of course, we were very happy to win it.

We had I think it was the third or fourth time we won the team time trial in the tour. And I do remember, of course, the incident of the day after where Lance said, OK, you know, I didn't really get it fair and square so uh i'm not gonna wear the jersey and then the tour said well you know you have to wear it um which you know when this and they they can do whatever they want they they're the boss so if they threaten you because they were threatening him of disqualifying him so of course you don't want that so he was we were uh he went to the start line with uh the discovery jersey and uh i think they delayed the start and he was forced to put on the yellow jersey did jean-marie leblanc come out like a wrestle the jersey i was jean-marie Leblanc who forced him to wear it. Yeah. I mean, I guess they sold the sponsorship.

Exactly. You know, Crédit Lyonnais was the title sponsor. They want to be, you know, you can't have, uh, you can't have a race with Crédit Lyonnais not in the pack for the whole, the whole stage. That's just, uh, so they were thinking about their sponsors. It's smart. That's funny. That is funny. I remember, but it was, it was fine. It was not so, I mean, it's not stressful because it was all done in, you know, in, at the start line in the neutral zone. So it was fine. Um,

it was fine. Um, second part of the question was best and worst memories of strategic decisions during this season. Yes. Okay. Well, strategic decisions. If we look at the season,

the season has been dominated by, by Pogacar. There was not much strategy you know there was he just won because he was the strongest and and annihilated everybody uh with every single attack so um the worst decision or one of the one of the i mean i'm not going to say a bad decision but not a not a smart decision that comes up straight away would be the gravel stage of the Tour de France and the several attacks of Remco Evertepoel with like 80k to go together with Pogacar. Pogacar was participating in, but I think Remco attacked himself.

I remember thinking back then, I said, what are you doing? You know, it's 80k to go. You're not going anywhere. Even if you get a gap now on this gravel section, they're going to get organized. Jonas, of course, I remember Jonas had a mechanical. He was on the bike of someone else on Trotnik's bike. But he had teammates around him.

So they were not going anywhere. So I thought that that's what, that was not a very smart move there. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of others, but just like straight off the top of my mind, I would say that was not a smart move. And, and yeah,

I mean, other than that, I think we would have to look at probably some, some classics. Great, great strategy was, I would say Milan Sanremo, for example, where Van der Poel was reeling in Pogacar and then sacrificed every single one of his chances for his teammate Jasper Philipsen to keep it together and Philipsen winning Milan San Remo that was strategically

a great race from Van der Poel and Philipsen and Alpecin yeah I do I don't I do vividly remember that and maybe the answer is just Van der Poel is a team player he's kind of

he's kind of like a de facto owner of that team. Yeah, he is a team player, a real team player. It's all kind of coming back to that original topic of Tom Pickcock. But does he do that just because it's right for the team and he thinks that is the right thing to do? Or do you think he's making some calculus of like, if I help Phillips in here, then he'll help me at Ruben. They're also great friends. They're great friends.

They get along really well. I personally didn't see Phillips and going anywhere else, although there was, there's been some doubts about him getting other offers. And at the end of the day, you know, he gets paid really well and he stays there because it's, there's a few key figures in that the day, you know, he gets paid really well and he stays there because it's,

there's a few key figures in that team that, you know, and I'm talking about Van der Poel, Philipsen, and then the Rothhoff brothers who have this, this unique bond, which is the soul of the team. So, but yeah, Van der Poel is an amazing team player. Whenever he sees that he doesn't have a chance to win he's there for the others which is amazing to see he is it kind of feels like it comes naturally to him uh it's his team it's his team i don't know if he has co-ownership or not he definitely is has interest in the team and you know he signed the 2028 i guess right to so so probably probably till the end of his career whatever happens after that um we don't know but um but yeah uh ultimate team player for such a big rider

it's it's super impressive i mean i guess the other side is he gets freedom but yeah he's yeah he he definitely has been given at least emotional ownership of the team and he really takes it on with two hands it's really really impressive second question this person this person did their homework i'm sorry i don't have their name i pulled it from like our online uh forum where people send in questions and didn't come with a name but tade versus yonas time i mentioned i think it was last week or the week before that the time margins between them are like it's like two seconds if you add up every tour they've done against each other time margins aside the determining factor in this fantastic battle is in the last 84 stages, four years, how many times has one taken actual time off the other?

In the last four tours, Jonas has won four stages and has only taken time off Taddei on five occasions. Four occasions if this year's stage 11 is one of the five given that this was a one second bonus, not an actual time difference in the last word tours tada has won 17 stages and taken time off yonas on 20 different occasions over four years and the 84 stages to date there have been 25 occasions where there's been time gain time gains by one over the other so close to 30 so close to 30 of all stages even if we accredit five time games to Jonas by telling by, sorry, I lost, to Jonas, the telling factor is that Jonas needs to be able to turn around to do, so Wiesma is going to need to take it to UAE rather than riding conservatively and hoping that UAE and Tadej will falter. While still impulsive, there's no doubt Tadej matured in 2024. My bet is that he will show even greater maturity in 2025, knowing he doesn't need to chase

larger time gains unless Tadej beats himself and Wiesma and he doesn't need to chase larger time gains unless tate beats himself and visma and jonas will now need to take huge risks if they are to attempt to nullify him then there's the scary bit who's to say he won't continue improving to go back to our topic earlier yeah i i'm curious to get your take on this johan. I will say first, I do think the fact that Jonas hasn't taken as much like, I don't know what we should refer to this as like time occurrences on Taddei is because that's part of the Visma plan. They sit back and let him make mistakes, knowing that it works in their favor. Obviously, if Taddei stops doing doing that that is a big problem for everybody

but I would like to get your take on this I think you're right Spencer uh it's they're completely different types of riders also they race differently um and listen let's not forget Jonas had this horrible accident in April uh the fact that he was at the start of the tour was a miracle. The fact that he was in that kind of shape is an even bigger miracle. On the other hand, we also know that the year before, Pogacar had an accident, broke his wrist. Not the same kind of injury, but also a very faulty preparation for the tour. So I said it many times, Spencer, in a lot of different podcasts.

I keep saying that Bogacar's worst enemy is himself. If he gets control of racing properly, conservatively, with precaution, he's close to unbeatable. You know, let's look at the world championships, for example, right? So he won the world championships. Amazing. I've never seen before attacking with 100K to go.

But it could have been that he almost didn't win because it was it, it was, it was at some point he was starting to like reach his limit. And then we've seen his interview afterwards saying that he was kind of running out of gas, these kinds of efforts. I mean, it's, it's amazing to see that on TV or witnesses in person, even, even more, but that's not really what I would recommend for a guy like Pogacar. And I think that's what Fisma and Jonas are hoping for,

that he keeps trying to put up these big shows and at some point is going to make a mistake and then pay the price. If it's not on the day then maybe the day after right so I would I would guess that bit by bit they also start to I think Pogacar is a bit

it's not the same character but it's a bit there's a bit of the same characteristics like Pitcock you know he's not very manageable you know in a good way in a good way but yeah. If I put my director's head on and I have this kind of beast on a bike that can win any race, the job of the coach and the director and the trainer is to keep the beast in the cage and only open the cage whenever it

matters, because that's how you win three weeks, three week races. Uh, with him, it's different. You can't keep the door closed on the cage. He just needs to be out. You know, I know it's not a popular answer, but if you look at it from, from a purely managing team perspective, uh, that's what I would recommend. Be a bit more conservative and win, but win many times with a minimal effort. You're going to be able

to do it a lot longer. I will say in defense of his, I agree with you that I do think his biggest enemy is himself. In the World championships case, he was running out of teammates quite quickly since he wasn't with UAE and he was with Slovenia. If he waits, is he, you know,

you remember this like well from like the canceller years, as he just like then stuck with a bunch of rivals who he can't drop, he can't out sprint. and we've all seen that movie before so there there is a reality where he like recognized like oh i'm running out of teammates this could get sticky for me inside 50k to go i'll just go now if i get caught i get caught but i'm probably not going to win if i stay put but then then again maybe he's good enough he could have dropped everybody with 70k to go or 50k yeah i think so but then you then again, maybe he's good enough. He could have dropped everybody with 70 K to go or 50 K to go. I think so. But then, you know, you, against that,

I would argue Spencer that there's been a lot of feedback from that race, from Pogacar himself, from Trotnik, that this was not the plan. And he was all of a sudden he did something and he said, Oh shit, what did I do? I'm gone now. Now, now what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. It did seem like he thought that some of those guys would stay with them. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's the, that's the strategy, right? I mean, if you're running out of teammates, you try to make a selection. You try to get ahead with all the other leaders. I think that was his plan, but the fact that nobody could follow him, he was there and man, a hundred K to go. That's you know, and the fact that he, I don't know if you saw his quote, he said, I, the car came next to me because they couldn't, they can't talk on radio.

And he's, he asked, he asked how many laps they were left, not knowing, not being sure it was the last lap. So that's how cross-eyed he was. And he said, if he would have said two instead of one, I would have been done, you know, but he didn't really have an idea of if it was really the last lap. So he went, I mean, sometimes it may look like it's easy, but it's, he goes full gas, you mean, sometimes it may look like it's easy, but it's, it, he goes full gas, you know, he empties himself. Yeah. I mean, I wonder if in a, in a race like

that, where you don't have your trade teams, if that's the right move though, if you're the best rider and you know, you're the best rider should just make it basically, what do they say? Like, if you have the largest lungs in the room lower the oxygen so everyone else dies like if he's fucked with it then everyone else must be screwed and they can't chase him down on that course spencer on the course of uh of zurich you know okay there's been a lot of talks before the race that it was going to be very hard and it was very hard but it was still an advantage to be in a group and working together behind and being out there on your own and that that actually

even enhances the performance i mean the the greatness of the performance of pogacar what he did there on that course right but uh yeah i mean everybody was dead so um didn't matter in the end well this next question i've actually wondered this myself, titled Nature Breaks. Is there a special zipper in the bibs these days for the guys so they can take a nature break? Also, how do women take a nature break?

Are there some areas set up with a bunch of porta-potties for them, or is this a factor in keeping women's races shorter? Nature breaks are going to the bathroom yeah yeah well no there's there's no zippers uh at all um are you sure i i actually i swear i see people you don't do you think those skin suits zip up from the bottom no no there's okay i know what you mean there are skin suits there first of all there's there's a typical two-piece right so cycling bibs and and shorts uh and and top which

nowadays a lot of people don't don't wear anymore uh and then you have the skin suit of course that makes nature breaks super complicated and then you have have the mix. So that's, that's what you mean. So there's, it's a skin suit, but it's, but the, the top opens separately. It's like, it, it's like a Jersey, which is attached to a, to a pants, but it's, so basically once you open that zipper, then you still have the bib, which is not the same as it would be a skin suit. It's, uh, so that makes it easier, but no, there's no zipper. Um, the way it works is

basically you're either stop when there's a general consensus amongst the Peloton, when, for example, the first breakaway of the day goes and there's, there's an agreement, okay, let's, let's all stop. And, or, you know, whoever wants to stop stops and comes back easily. Uh, then the other, the other way is, uh, you know, do it off the bike, whether you want to be pushed by a teammate or not, that's your own decision. Then that here comes, it comes to get better. It gets a bit technical. So normally what you would do is you is you would wait until there's a slight downhill where you almost don't have to pedal. And then very importantly,

you have to go to the side of the road and especially look the direction of the wind. So you basically on the bike doing what you have to do, but looking where the wind comes from, because if you're, you know, if you're on the wrong side, whatever you let go, either can be go in your face or in the face of the, of your rivals. Um, so no, that, no, there's, there's no special zip, uh, as far as I know. And, uh, I mean the question about the women's cycling, actually good question. I've never thought about that. So, um, races do tend to be shorter. We all know that. So they're,

they're less hours on the bike, but I'm pretty sure that there are some cyclists that need to take a nature break. And so we'd have to ask Mary or Ali. I don't really know. I don't really know how that works. I mean, they can stop on the side of the road somewhere, but they would have to hide bushes or whatever, or trees. I don't know. And I, I, I don't have the answer to that question. I remember like, it was from like a training camp if you remember christian

kristin armstrong she was like a great american cyclist i hope she is yeah of course i know and she was like take took a pee break at a training camp and then said to the director like i don't want the younger girls to see me doing that because i want to get them i want them to be used to holding it and that did kind of make me think like maybe they're not going to the bathroom during the races like if it's that much of a point of emphasis on the on the special zippers maybe I'm misremembering this but I used to work at the pros closet which sold when it was like an actual pros closet it bought a gear from teams from pro teams and then sold it to regular people. And the BMC clothing, they would have these skin suits that did have like special nature break zippers, I guess would be the best way to describe it.

But it's the only ones I've ever seen like that. It was like two years of their skin suits had that. So yeah, we'd have to ask like Tour Huch maybe a tight skin suit before there was that like that i mean i think nowadays we see a lot of riders riding with this hybrid skin suit right which is like yeah i think like a stelly was the first one to come out with that yeah yeah yeah which makes a lot it kind of makes a lot more sense but no i thought that was an interesting question about the women's i know i i had honestly never really thought about that either um i guess you could make it work if you had to but it now i'm curious about the race distances is that why the distances are slightly

i have a picture somewhere of like a funny picture uh about riders taking a nature break and others pushing uh i'll send it on the group chat or if we want to put it in the podcast here, after it's edited, we can put it in there too. It's funny. You've got to make sure that the wind is right. That's a very good point, Johan. Oh yeah. Yeah. And a slight downhill if it's possible. Yeah. Yeah. Don't do it on that uphill. That's not going to work. Because you can't pedal, right?

So you need to basically stop pedaling and then figure it out. I had a teammate that would practice on group rides. I'm like, oh, that's actually a good idea. You don't want to make sure it's the race. No, no, no. Just feel bad for everyone else in the group ride but that are all the questions for the week info at wedo.team if you want to send one in for next week and we will talk to you later if you don't have anything else to share johan okay spencer enjoy the rest of your stay at the ruler and let me know if uh's any scoops.

All right, we'll do. We'll do. Okay. All right, bye. Bye-bye.