THEMOVE - If Pogačar Is This Good, Can UAE Go 1-2 at the Tour? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down the first few stages of the Tour de Suisse, reflecting on Tadej Pogačar's supreme dominance and what his ability to take time at will, even on non-set-piece stages, tells us about the looming battle at the Tour de France. They also wonder if the extremely high level of his UAE teammates and their ability to bully their rivals at will mean we will get a UAE 1-2 at the Tour, with Jonas Vingegaard left fighting for third. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Hims: For simple, online access to personalized and affordable care for Hair Loss, ED, Weight Loss, and more, visit https://Hims.com/THEMOVE Caldera Lab: A small habit with big results. Go to https://CalderaLab.com/THEMOVE and use code THEMOVE for 20% off your first order. Gusto: Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/themove, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at https://gusto.com/themove Lagoon: Use code MOVE for 15% off at https://LagoonSleep.com/THEMOVE  

There's a clip circulating on social media where Sextap is setting the temple. And there's a friend of Del Toro making a video. And you see Sextas super concentrated going, I mean, not going to say full gas, but like pushing it. And Del Toro smiling to the camera, like making jokes to his friend. You know, we have not seen it on TV, but it's quite telling of how. how good del Toro is. And so combine that with the way Bogachar is racing right now.

I don't know if I said it already. I think I said it. I can see them riding away together. Del Toro and Pogatjar. Just the two of them in the Tour de France. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Brunel.

And we are recording an unusual circumstances. I'm on the ground at the tour of Switzerland, a poaching a conference room right now. Hopefully we don't get kicked out mid-episode. Johann is deep in the wilds of northern Spain, kind of like an earnest-himming way of his time, going in, bushwhacking through the mountains. But we found that the best way to have him call in

was just to do the audio. The video was not working, so there'll be a beautiful headshot of him while you're watching this on YouTube. But Johan, how are you doing? We'll talk about some racing tour of Switzerland, of course. Tadipagotcha, putting on a clinic. But how are you doing,

since we've last spoken. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good, Spencer. So last time we spoke, I guess, no, I was already, I already came back from Marrakesh, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, we wrapped up. I think you were like just leaving for. No.

I think you were like one hour away from your flight. Am I wrong? No, but we, we, I think we wrapped up. Yeah, actually, yes. I was still in Marrakesh. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I came quickly home, just quickly changed suitcase.

And. drove up to northern Spain where my son Christian is racing a four-day stage race Vuelta Becaya, which is like the biggest stage race for juniors in Spain. So I'm here four days supporting him and watching races. And I am actually in a really little town. I mean, there's not many hotels here, so I'm in like a rural, whatever, Airbnb. And yeah, unfortunately, the Wi-Fi is not the same as in Madrid here. And so, but anyways, we are committed to the podcast. We're here.

Unfortunately, there's no video image, but it's, what is it? It's 10.30 p.m. and we're going to talk about some bike racing. Yeah. It starts to feel ridiculous. It's like my son is asleep in his room. Hopefully, I'm running around a hotel late at night. I'm actually in Picnic Post-en-El's team hotel and I was like eating dinner and kind of cover my face. I'm like, oh, we've said a lot of stuff about them on the show. Hopefully they

do not recognize us. But it's actually kind of, it's cool in these smaller races, especially like watch, you can watch them kind of go about their routine. It's quite instructive to get that type of view. But very hot in Switzerland. If you've been watching the race, it's like it's looked sunny. And if you don't pay attention to the temperature, you're like, oh, that looks nice, but it's been unbelievably hot and only getting hotter. I think I said, I probably jinxed it. I said on the last show or two shows ago, I was like, oh, it's not going to get above 30 in London. And I think that forecast for Tuesday is a high of 36. And it's been over 30 degrees every day at tour of Switzerland. I remember when Tadipagatra was not good in the heat. I was thinking about

that narrative today because he is two minutes, 50 seconds up on Richard Carapaz in second place, three minutes and seven seconds up on Andrea Baggioli and third. And then the fourth place writer, Mattias Veitchek, who's actually riding really well is four minutes, 16 seconds down. And we have not had a mountain, a real mountain stage or a time trial stage. These gaps are only going to get bigger because tomorrow, stage four is a time trial. I previewed the course today. It's perfect for Pagachar. And then stage five is actually a brutal mountain stage kind of around the UCI headquarters that

I'm sure he's just going to extend his lead on. But if you have not seen this race, really all you need to know is stage one was, I don't know. You think you know what's going to happen. And then Pagotra shows up. I'm still gobsmacked at this because it was kind of a mild stage. There's a, I don't know, there was an intermediate sprint. Like wasn't really even on a climb.

There's an intermediate sprint point. It's weird. They do one sprint point and then a kilometer later. they do a second sprint point. This is stage one. He just kind of goes off the front with Brandon McNulty, takes the time, you know, two seconds. Everyone behind is probably thinking, well, why are we fighting for two seconds? I would say, though, Johan, probably general rule of thumb in cycling.

If Teddy Pagachar goes off the front on a flat, maybe follow him because nobody followed him except Matthew Rickettello. And he said, hey, maybe I should just keep going. And he just, it was like 90K from the finish. and he just opened the throttle and ripped off the front and he basically exploded the race right then and there. By the end of stage one, he was two minutes, 14 seconds on Richard Carapaz, who basically had a 40, 50K long solo pursuit. Actually heads up ride by him. Baggioli was 2.29 back and everybody else was over four minutes back.

And that was on just a rolling stage on stage one where he got away on an intermediate sprint. It kind of tells you that he's probably here training in some ways. Like that was a training effort for the tour, especially with the shorter race. Stage two, he again blew it up. I've never seen anything like this. They got to the final two climbs. He's trying to lead out Jonathan Narvaeus's teammate. Narvaeus is getting dropped.

So then Narvaeus recovers in between the two climbs starts to lead out Pagotchar, who then says, no, no, I will lead you out. And they're like fighting over who's going to lead who out. It's an on-off on the front situation. And then eventually Narvaeus just gets dropped. Matias Vichek is there. So Pagotra says, I should probably follow him, follows him. They both almost actually, Ophonse O'ulolio gets caught from the breakaway.

I was thinking, how did he get that race assignment? The guy just had the zero of his life. Now he's at the tour of Switzerland. I don't know what happened there, but they almost catch the break. They're pulling back minutes in the final few Ks. But Roman Gregor from Groupama, FDJ, super impressive ride. Like, didn't panic, stayed in the group. Great sprint wins.

Pagacar and Vich are four seconds behind. him in seventh or sorry sixth and eighth and vichick looked really good like really good i was was super impressed with him and then today's stage three was he was like hilly at the beginning and then 60k flat to the finish so you're thinking that's probably going to be a sprint stage right well jonathan narvias gets away with zandro what how do you say his last name sonbrose this fellow one No, Norella. Yes. Huge guy, big guy.

They get away and Narvius is so arrow. I feel like he's getting more arrow by the day. And he's so strong. And they hold off the Peloton. You know, they have three minutes with about, I'm going to say, 60K to go. And then it drops to, it was like 133 with 20K to go. So you're like, well, they're going to get caught. But if you crunch the numbers on that, the Peloton was pulling back about four seconds

or kilometer. But that's not enough because if you keep pulling that. back, you're going to lose by four seconds. And that's almost exactly what happened. They got to the finish line, Narvius out sprints. Zondra, I would love to get your thoughts if you think there was maybe a deal that would have because it was the old 2020, 2012 Olympics. Oh, I didn't see it going on that side. And they had worked pretty well together all day. Narvius wins with Magnus Court from Unox getting third. And Unox had offered no work all day. That kind of shows you why you should be careful about, you know, actually why you should think about

not working at all in some of these races. But what are your thoughts on this, on this Pagacha exhibition we're seeing here? Yeah, Spencer. I mean, it basically all comes down to stage one. As you said, you know, he attacked. He didn't attack after a sprint. He just looked around. He did not even try to get away. But you could see that after that bonus sprint,

there was a false flat uphill and everybody was on the limit. And Pogaccha just went to the left of the road, just kept pushing and nobody could react. I don't think it was a matter of hesitating or, you know, being scared. I think they were all on the limit. And then he starts, I think it was 74K to go when he goes. And initially he pushes it like usual until he gets a minute. And then, you know, he starts to cruise.

I mean, I think one of the images that will stick with me from stage one in the tour of Switzerland, Spencer, is he crests a climb and then he just, you know, you can see that he takes a left and he starts the downhill and you have the whole valley and he was just sightseeing.

He was, the guy was just looking around and enjoying the landscape. That's what it looked like. And, I mean, yeah, 2.14 on Carapas. Carapas was a good ride or by himself also. And then, I mean, then the other question is,

Where are all the other climbers? You know, where are these guys? It's a bit thin. You know, the participation, the rivals of Pogacca, but, you know, like, Roglisch is there. He was underperforming. He's been underperforming so far. Like, yeah, by a lot.

Am I crazy for thinking that he wasn't even supposed to be here? I thought he was like taking a multi-month-long break. I mean, initially, initially there was some, yeah, when, when, when they announced his schedule, you know, they said, well, you know,

he doesn't, he doesn't race, but because he's not racing the tour de France, right? Roglitz, is he racing the tour? I don't think so. I don't think,

isn't he just doing the, yeah, yeah, the Volta? Yeah, the Volta. So he's not, he's not doing the tour.

So, listen, I mean, it's, it's a bit of an expensive guy to have on the team if he doesn't race at all. So I'm going to guess that the team management.

Good point. The team management has probably, probably put their foot down. But this is definitely the Primos Roglisch we're used to see. He was in that group behind Pugachar and behind Carapas and he got

dropped from that group on that last kicker. I mean, climb 1.4 kilometers. It was steep, but that was the only time where Pugachar pushed it again on that last climb and he took another 30 seconds on that 1.4 kilometer climb.

So I think it confirms Spencer of course it's difficult to to judge if the competition is I mean this is not Rhingegart or Lipowitz or Evanapul or these guys right or del Toro so it's difficult to judge but it looks to me like he's on an incredible level he's here to have fun, does whatever he wants, it looks to me like in the race, you know, just gets away without trying. And it just confirms what we've been saying, that, you know, he has once again improved,

definitely looks stronger than his last stage, which was the tour of Romandie, which he won plus four stages. So he looks stronger than there. And yeah, I mean, this just, I mean, we'll see it still the time trial tomorrow and then, I mean, the last stage, Spencer,

I mean, there's no way he's not winning that last stage, I think, with the way this tour is no way. So, yeah, I mean, what does that say, you know, and especially so close to the Tour de France, are we going to see a real race in the Tour de France? Honestly, I don't think so. I think UAE is going to crush it.

It's going to crush it. You know why I say that, Spencer? Because today I saw, I mean, we were talking about two of Switzerland, but I saw a little clip. I don't know if you saw it. If you didn't, I'll send it to you. A little clip of the Doffiney, where we saw that Del Toro won comfortably.

We saw that, okay, we know Paul Sextas had this crash and could not defend his real value, right? but I saw a little clip of the stage where both success and Del Toro are just the two of them I guess was that a stage that? Wait, who won that stage? Did Del Toro actually win that stage then?

Anyways, but... So that was the Friday stage when there was a breakaway? That was a break. That was a break. Right? Anyway, so, so success. Yeah, okay, they came in together.

They came in together. They didn't win the stage, exactly. It was a hard climb. They came in together. Seikas drove the pace on that climb. And then DeLtoe started to collaborate a bit. And then Del Toro basically did the last part and came over the finish together with Seixas. But there's a clip circulating on social media where Sextap is setting the temple.

And there's a friend of Del Toro making a video. and you see sexes super concentrated going I mean not going to say full gas

but like pushing it and El Toro smiling to the camera like making jokes to his friend you know we have not seen it on TV

but it's quite telling of how good del Toro is and so combine that with the way Bogach

racing right now I don't know if I said I said it already. I think I said it. I can see them riding away together. Del Toro and Pogacar. Just the two of them in the Tour de France on certain times. Wait, you could see Pagacchar and Del Tor riding away from, from Jonas. Yes. Yes. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, I would love to disagree with you, but man, after I can, I know it's Switzerland, right? Right. But after Narvaeus, watching Narvaeus, like this is not like he's not nearly as good as Bagotcha, right?

And he is kind of running circles around sprint leadout trains at this race. Like it just tells you the level in that team is so, so high. Yeah. It's crazy. By the way, speaking of Narvaise, you know, great stage win of Narvaise, you know, crashed out of the Giro. we've talked about Narvaise during the Giro many times that he was kind of considered as a done deal returning to Ineos or net company turns out that's not the case

he stays with UAE I don't know if you saw that he has renewed Yeah what do you think happened there Well they are they up the offer They increased the offer at UAE I think Narvaise is a What can a gentleman like that

I mean, I don't know. What can he expect? Like, what is that offer, you think? I don't know what he amounts is. I would imagine. It's, I think it's between two and three million. I mean, and maybe, I mean, maybe I'm out of the game. It is a lot of money for a rider like that.

Yeah. Between two and three million, three years. It's not a bad deal. It's like, that's what, that's probably what Carapas makes, you know. Well, I mean, who would you rather have? I'd rather have good than Narvaise. Probably. I mean.

And he's so handy as a, I agree. I totally agree. And he's so handy as a domestic as well, in addition to winning just a ton of races. Yeah. I mean, he's so, he's so versatile. You know, he can, I mean, if he would, if this guy would focus in the spring on the spring classics, he's in the final of those races every single time because he's so explosive. Yeah.

For sure. You know, let's not forget that Narvaise, when he was. young, he was on Ineos, and he was the one who followed Matthew van der Poul in one of I think it was in Kurenne or in Omlopers, one of those races and everybody's saying,

who the hell is that guy, you know? But, and then we all remember what he did last year on Hotakam. Blue out, I mean, that's, that's one of the those days where, you know, when Narvaise was pulling, Jonas was dropped already.

You know, So imagine, imagine this is del Toro. Del Toro is like a lot better, a lot better than Arvice uphill. Yes. It is that I'm still digesting. Let's take a quick, let's take a quick ad break while I digest this take. This is something to think about. I don't think, I don't think it's totally, I don't think it's that far off.

And it is, it's a little freaky watching these guys race at the moment. But we'll be right back. Hey, everybody. This episode is brought to you by Lagoon Sleep. With a true to France right around the corner, all the main contenders are currently tucked away in their high altitude training camps looking for that extra edge. And at the end of the day, more speed. We know what's better than the fastest spike and the slickest wheels, it's sleep. And that's what Lagoon is best at. Sleep works exactly the same way structure training does. One bad night, just like one bad workout is not the problem. But a training block where you're chronically under recovering is. And that starts with what your head is on for eight or more hours a night. Lagoon is a small company built by athletes for athletes, a former Olympic trial swimmer who tested over 60 pillows but couldn't find one built with recovery in mind. So he built it himself. You start with the two minute quiz that matches you with the right pillow for your sleep position and body type, fully adjustable fill so you can dial in the exact height and support you need. The result, you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer and start training days feeling better. The data on this is real.

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completely disagree with us. I don't know if you saw that interview. It's Michael Sturr. He is convinced that Jonas is going to win the Tour de France. That he saw Jonas in the Giro, raced with him, against him, thinks that he didn't go full gas.

I do agree. He didn't go full gas. And that he's going to be better in the tour than in the Giro. and that Jonas is going to win the tour. What do you think? I don't know why Michael Storr would say this. I love the take. It's spicy.

Gets the conversation going. But my question to Michael Storr would be, and Yonis is a great writer. Like I've been reflecting on, I don't know if we had this conversation, but if Taday, let's say he was a barista, he never races. Yonis is probably considered better than Lance right now

because he's won five tours going on. six and he's also won the Giro and the Valta while he's doing that. Yeah, without this seven. Without Pogacar, he's, he is, he is by far the best stage racer of the last 20 years. I would say, Jonas, without Pogatcher. Yeah. So, yeah, I just want to make, make sure I have been reflecting on his greatness, great writer. But I guess I would ask Michael Storr, where is he making up the time?

I just don't think the math works out on the climbs or the time trials. So unless Bagotra has a problem, where are you doing this? Well, plus, plus, you know, I mean, what we can't, I mean, we can kind of estimate, but at the tour, everybody is on a higher level. The question is, how much higher is the level of Jonas? How much higher can it be? I think there's some improvement there compared to the Giro, no doubt about that. I just think that Pogacar is on a much higher level still.

I don't know, seeing from, I mean, the way he has dominated these races, Spencer, you know, starts in Trade Bianchi, blows everybody away, then does Strada Bianchi, then Milots San Bramo wins after that crash. Tour flanders blows everybody away then gets second in the in the

in Pariroubet then Liesbaston Liesch just like one man show and then he goes to Romandy kind of kind of a testing race

because he hadn't trained in the mountains and you know everybody says you know he's not that strong wins four stages and the overall and now shows up

at the Turf Switzerland and just blows away everybody again. So yeah, I mean, I don't know what else. And it seems it's it feels to me that this is not his maximum level. He's in he's in progression now towards his optimal to the France level. No, I can't overstate this enough. We haven't even gotten to the terrain in Switzerland. That's good for him. He's doing this on. And you know, you see you know, there's is this complex. But you see guys like like Paul's successful wait, right? Like I'm going to wait till the

final weekend. Pagachar is this mentality now where he's like, I'm going to take, I'm going to take four minutes on a sprint stage because then I've got this big cushion. And it'll like he was really aggressive on stage too because what does he care about Vachek? Right. Like he's pulling Vodchak to the line like just extending his lead over everybody else on a stage where he probably shouldn't even be doing that. So I don't know. I can't say it. I would think Yonis would have to take leaps to get to Pagatja's level and then you're just even. So, I mean, if he won the tour, I think it would be by a tiny margin, right? Yeah, I mean, I think I think what the, what, what, what, what Yonaz could try to, his ambition is probably going to be, okay.

My goal is to just follow Pagatja and try to stay with him. You know, I don't think he can, he can have the ambition to attack and drop Pagachar. Yeah, unless he is a serious problem. Exactly. That's the situation. Try to stay with Pogacar and hope that something goes wrong, that Pogacar's over ambitious, that, you know, he runs out of fuel like he did one year in one of those stages. It's just two years ago, no?

That's what happened. So that's kind of, I think, what Jonas' ambition should be or can be. But from there to say, okay, I'm going to attack in the mountains and drop Bogacha and take minutes on him, I just don't see it happening. Yeah, it seems a little hard to imagine, especially at this point. We'll see, I guess we'll see how, I mean, how do you think he's going to do in the time trail tomorrow? It's 23K. I actually looked at the road and thought, oh, that'd be a great road to go on a ride on. And then that's the road the time trial goes out.

It just kind of loops. There's this little, you know, Switzerland's kind of a funny country. You think of it as the Big Alps, but the north half, it's just kind of these beautiful green subalpine mountains. So you kind of have this mountain, but the route runs like along the base of the mountain. And there is two climbs in the middle. One is they're both sub-kilometer. Like one is 0.8 kilometers. The other one is like 0.5, like half a half 500 meters basically at around 5% and then the descent is kind of technical.

I would almost say that's where someone like Remy Kavanaugh could go crazy because what does he care about? Pagachar is trying not to crash. So maybe someone could take time there. But I kind of think he wins his time trial tomorrow. Do you see anybody beating him? Is the rest flat? Then it's, yeah, then it's downhill to flat. It's not Giorita Italia stage 10, you know, where it was along the Lido.

It was pancake flat and straight. It is, there is technical. It's rolling and it's technical. so 160 meters of climbing. So there is some climbing, but it's not a lot. Yeah. I'm not sure if he wins the time trial. But I mean, listen, the way he wrote on stage one man,

that was a 74 kilometer time trial. So, you know, he did. Yeah. I don't know. he has this new bike right that he's using I think he's he used it for the first time in the pro yeah they just released it.

It's like a super light time trial bike. Yes because that was the knock on their time trial bike. They always had a super fast flatland kit for time trials like very fast and then this is the next push to try to and that's why he changes bikes a lot. You know where Jonas will stay on the TT bike he goes to the road bike sometimes and this is their push to get equal to them

and maybe he'll surpass them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's possible. I mean, I would definitely not be surprised if he wins the time trial. I mean, which other time trial specialists are there? So Kavanaugh, you just named him, is Kung there?

Stefan Kuhn? I know. Do you know what he? No, I looked him up. He DNFed Amloup. you know what he broke something he broke something uh pretty serious i think i think i think it's a pretty serious injury yeah um yeah i mean and then it'd be like rogglitch but he's not going to win right no no no no actually you know who the wild card is is our guy alec sagart he's here yeah okay yeah

i mean he's a good time for all this i mean there's not many it's like brandon mcnulty it's not a lot of them. No, no. I mean, those guys are not beating Pogacra. I don't think Alex Seigart, I mean, also, listen, another guy from Bahrain who did the Giro and is here now. I don't know if he finished the Giro. I know.

I don't know. I don't think Alex Seigart finished the Giro. He won the stage and then a few stages afterwards. Oh, no, he did finish. Oh, he did? Okay. Okay. Wow.

No, he finished. He finished. Yeah. Okay. we're thinking of the person you're thinking of is Michael Valgrin who won that stage and then left.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so Seagart, but you know, I mean, if you look Seagart, Kavania, okay, they're good riders, but they're not Bugacar rivals. Not even in a time trial. I don't think so.

Yeah, Pogacha wins the TTI. I mean, I got to say the whole Pogcha wins the TTI. The whole Swiss vibe it kind of feels like summer vacation type thing it's not it's much you can like it's just it's much less serious than the dauphiné is at the at the moment but I kind of like the reduced stages I am liking this shorter version of it I think it gives each stage more like a little bit more heft and like it makes nervius is stealing the only sprint stage of the race today that much more

consequential. So I like the five-stage format. And it does feel like it would be good training if you're Pagot-char. So I get while they're doing it. It's also Switzerland's a very nice country to come to. Very easy to get around. So you can come and see multiple stages if you want. And then I assume we'll just pencil them in for stage five. It's an extremely hard mountain stage with circuits, which for some reasons, we don't really understand make races harder. I feel like when they go over the same roads multiple times. I think he's just going to absolutely crush everybody on that. It looks like we've lost Johann,

but I think we got more out of him there than we could have expected with the level of connectivity we had. We heard quite a bit and we'll have them back right after the end of Switzerland this over the weekend. And I will talk to him about Primus Rogledge, how Pagosar ends up winning this race. Primos Rogelage, what we can expect from him going forward kind of concerning form to be completely honest with everybody.

Has not been himself or the Broglich we've known for the last few years in the last, I don't know, almost year at this point since the Tour de France last year, really. So I'm interested and curious to hear Johan's take on that. And as well as to see who finishes on the podium of this tour of Switzerland. There's a lot left to play for here. And we are excited to watch it. And we'll be back with the move right after, sometime after the final stage on Sunday. All right. Well, thank you and we'll talk to you later. Bye.