THEMOVE - Is Isaac del Toro a Serious Tour de France Contender Now? | Dauphiné Review | THEMOVE

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down Isaac del Toro's impressive win at the Tour Auvergne - Rhône-Alpes (aka Critérium du Dauphiné) and discuss what Del Toro's dominant win, Paul Seixas crashing out, Juan Ayuso looking strong in 3rd, and previously unknown rider Luke Tuckwell finishing second mean for the upcoming Tour de France. They dive into the tactics and moves that won Del Toro the race, debate whether this form means he can challenge for the podium at the Tour, and briefly preview this week's Tour de Suisse. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Henson Shaving: Visit https://hensonshaving.com/themove or use code themove to receive 100 free blades with the purchase of a razor (over 2 years supply). Just make sure both products are in the cart for the code to take effect. Sheath Underwear: Sheath. The underwear of legends. Go to https://www.sheath.com/THEMOVE and use code THEMOVE for 20% off. DripDrop: Right now, DripDrop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. Go to https://dripdrop.com and use promo code themove. Upwork: Visit https://Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is https://Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. NordVPN: EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/THEMOVE Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee NOCD: If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started: https://NOCD.com  

Del Toro was the best writer of this race. And it's obviously great news for UAE and for Tare Pogacar and not very good news for the rivals of Pogacar and Ui in the Tour de France because Del Toro is showing that he keeps making those steps to becoming one of the best stage races in the world. And we all know that he's going to be his last guy, I mean, if everything goes to plan, the last guy to be with Tadei Pogacar to eventually try to launch attacks on crucial climb. So if, you know, today we would say if you look at the pro peloton, I would dare to say that Del Toro is probably the third strongest rider in the tour.

And he's going to be the guy who's next to Pogacar. Everybody, welcome back to The Move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johann Brunel. we are breaking down the dophine, the Craterium Dudaepine, that's not called that anymore, the TARO race, which the eight day, eight stage historic pre-tour de France tune-up race. The key to the dophine is the reason people like it is it does a lot of climbs and routes that you might do in the tour.

It's kind of a mountain stage only, mountain, yeah, stage only version of a one-week stage race in South Central France. Like yesterday, they finished on Plateau. do so how do you say this climb you hon is it salison which is they'll finish stage 15 of the tour de france on and isa d'el toro your pick won the overall because he won the final stage by a minute over juo with tobias holland johansen ride of the day in my opinion and third one of two back and since we've talked there's been two mountain stages the other mountain stage on stage seven del toro won as well 24 seconds over Juan Uso with Tobias Holland, Johansson, 3rd, 38 seconds bat.

So this is a trend we're seeing where the same three guys get one, two, and three on mountain stages. We saw that at the year to tell you a lot. It meant the overall was Isaac Daltoro. And first, Luke, who crazily did not wear the leader's jersey at any point in this race until the final podium, unless I'm mistaken, Luke Tukwell, who was the race leader going into the final stage on Red Bull Borough-Hansgro. He's a 21-year-old Australian, super impressive ride. He's second, 54 seconds back. So he really held on.

Wana Yuso and third at 117 back. Mateo Jorgensen, 1-36 back. He fell from second place on the final day after being dropped. It was small margins here outside of the winning margin. And then Tobias Holland Johansen in 146th and fifth. And that's impressive because he lost over three minutes on stage one. And then clawed his way back into the top five. But Johan, what was your big take?

away from this race? Well, I mean, as you said, Spencer, the Dauphiné, or Tour de Auvergne-Ronald, as they call it nowadays. Great preparation race for the Tour de France. I've always been a fan of this race for several reasons, and it looks like this season. Again, I think it's a great general repetition for the Tour de France. Sometimes they do feature on purpose, stages or close. climbs that also feature in the Tour de France, for example.

Last, yesterday's final climb is going to be one of the hard stages in the Tour de France on stage 15 or 16, if I'm not mistaken. So already that, you know, you get used to the racing in France on French roads. Obviously, there's not the same amount of public, but it gives you a bit of a feel, right? You kind of get a taste of what you're going to be presented in the month of July during the Tour de France. So I like that. But yeah, Del Toro, listen, Del Toro was outstanding, I think. Looked always in control, wrote very smart. Didn't make any mistakes, I think.

And on top of that, his team, UAE, which was strong, was able to take advantage, full advantage of several race situations than let other teams do the work. I think the takeaway of this is, and of course we haven't spoken about Paul Sexas and his crash, we will get into that crash on Saturday stage with consequences that he couldn't defend his position. But I personally think independently of that incident with Seixas,

Deltoro was the best rider of this race. And it's obviously great news for UAE and for, Tade Pogacar and not very good news for the rivals of Pogacar Nui in the Tour de France because Deltoro is showing that he keeps making those steps to becoming one of the best stage races in the world and we all know that he's going to be his last guy I mean if everything goes to plan the last guy to be with Taday Pugacar to eventually try to launch attacks on crucial climb So if, you know, if today we would say, if you look at the pro peloton, I would dare to say that Del Toro is probably the third strongest rider in the tour. And he's going to be the guy who's next to Pogacar.

So that's not very motivating and hopeful for the rivals of Pogaccia for the Tour of France. But yeah, man, listen, Lertoro is still young. is making his name has won an amazing amount of races. If I'm not mistaken, did he not win 22 races last year? Oh, that's a good question. He won a lot. I remember it being 19. But let me...

19 is more than most people win in their career. Yeah. Wait. Yeah, no, it was 19 last year. And this year he's won, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 race. is even more impressive than that is he was extremely hurt. Last time we saw him, he could barely get his leg

over his bike because he crashed out of... Was it... What was it? Itzulia? Was it? Oh, no. It's Catalonia. Catalonia.

No, Idzulia. Because he won UAE tour. He won Torano. Yeah, exactly. And then he crashes out of it, Zulia. I was kind of worried about him. And then no reason to be worried. We're seeing that the...

Again, Spencer, it's this new trend in cycling. And especially with these young riders, they get injured. They're out of competition. They come back. Bam, straight away, top level. We see it all the time. You know, we said the same with Narweiss in the Giro, Van Gilles, out since February,

with a fracture of the pelvis. del toro was injured i don't think his injuries were as bad as narvaise and rangelz but still uh looked ready uh did a lot of preparation together with pogachar altitude training and recon so um must be an amazing feeling for del toro and for especially for pogachar and ua to have this kind of support uh coming into the big objective of the season which is a tour de france yes Yeah, and as you said, you can't be feeling good if you're not, if you're not Del Toro. I mean, just to give people, I'm not going to break this down stage by stage.

But yesterday was a tour de France-esque stage. We had four categorized climbs, starts off on a cat one climb. 7K long at 9.4%. That's the start of the race, Johan. Ouch. Then they go into an HC climb. They go up that to send down, start an HC climb, 11K,0005K, 9%. That's the second climb of the day.

Third climb of the day, 7K at 7%. And these are all one after the other. This is crammed in 120K. They descend down as kind of the first valley. Like, you know, it's kind of around like Solonch. Like you get these big valleys with the mountains around you. They descend down and they do the final climb. It's 11.5K at 9%.

Another HG climb. And as you said, his UA team didn't have to do anything all day. They sit back, little treks doing the work. And then UAE comes forward. They have like four riders in front of them. Boom, boom, boom. They go through them. and by the time he's ready to go,

the pace is so high, he doesn't really attack. He just kind of rides off the front. It was, I mean, I looked at this with particular attention because it was Pablo Torres, the young rider from Madrid, who by the way, also starts his season here after a knee operation,

knee surgery. I mean, I think he had a few races. Then he had knee problems, had a surgery and has just come into action again. And I mean, that last pull of Pablo. Torres was like, that del Toro just had, you didn't have to attack already.

He didn't. He just, they were gone already with the two of them. I mean, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think UAE was, you know, true circumstances. Didn't have to do that much. Didn't have to control the race. Never had to bring a breakaway back. And I think it's, I mean, you know, with Tucker will, with Tuckerwell in, in the lead, you would have you would have thought well maybe uae will have to do the work because i think red bull was

down to three riders if i'm not mistaken but then little track came in because they still have they still had lots of abandons by the way in this race i think there was 150 riders at the start and i think it's there's there's only about 80 or so at the finish yeah it was a sub hundred rider peloton on the last stage which you rarely see yeah yeah yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, little, well, here, let's take a quick break. We'll talk about Little Trex's decision to work and how Isaac Toltoe is like Jill and Brunson. That's the leap I'm going to make when we come back from this ad break.

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That's dripdrop.com promo code the move for 20% off. Stock up now at dripdrop.com. It's getting hot out there and use promo code the move. So, Johan, yeah, Little Trek was at the front a lot. I mean, this race couldn't have worked out better for him. They didn't have to do anything yesterday because Little Track came forward. But it was a weird, in their defense, it was a weird situation. It's one of the weirdest stage races I've seen in a while.

There was no shape or form to it. You had Alex Bodon. Also, this is a kind of a case study for why it's so good to give the jersey away because Alex Bedon gets the jersey on stage one. EF does a ton of work for the first chunk of stages. And then Luke Tuckwell goes into a breakaway. Don't do that. That's too much time.

He's too good of a writer. He costs someone. He probably costs Mateo Jorgensen the podium because that happened. But then now he's responsible for the jersey. But going into the stage, it was Tuckwell in first. Mateo Jorgensen in second, 42 seconds. Del Toro and third 49 seconds back. I use so fourth, 106 back.

So Little Trek has to drop Tuckwell. I mean, everybody has to drop Tuckwell. But then they also have to drop Deltoro and Jorgensen or one of them or one of those three if they want to get on the podium. So at some point they do kind of have to make the race hard. And I guess it was just circumstance worked in U.A. favor and they didn't have to do anything. I mean, do you think Little Trek should have called UA's bluff and said, hey, you guys want to win this race?

You want to make the pace hard. I don't think so, you know, I mean, they all pursued different objectives. I think after Saturday stage, I think it was already clear to everybody that Del Toro was going to be the big favorite, even if there was not that same distance between him and Ayuso. But, you know, these guys know. these guys know. And then on top of that, if you still have eight riders, as Little Trek had at the start, and you know that you're going to have two riders, which are Ayuso and Skilmosa on the last climb, you know, what are the other six going to do, right? I mean, you may as well get a last really good drill in. I'm pretty sure that all these riders of Little Trek did that job with pleasure,

even if they knew that it was going to be difficult. But at the end of the day, day, they do get on the podium. You know, a guy like Tuckwell, for example, you never know what's going to happen. You know what I mean, he's a good writer. He's young. He got that advantage. It's enough that

you know, if Tuckwell has a great day and your leader doesn't have a great day, maybe you don't take the leader's jersey in the case of, in the case of UAE. Because ultimately, what was it? 50 seconds, the difference in between second, first and second, 40-something seconds?

42 seconds. Yeah. So. Or no, in final result, it was. Yeah. Right. It was 54 seconds. Yeah.

Okay. Anyways, Del Toro had a great climb. So, but you don't know that on beforehand, right? What we did know for sure was that Red Bull was never going to be in a position to defend the Jersey. So somebody had to do it. And so, well, little fact could have said, okay, it's your turn. Would it have changed the end result?

I don't think so. I don't think it would have changed anything. It definitely absolutely would not have changed anything. We should put that like what happened was always going to happen. There was no strings to pull. The only question we have to ask yourself, Spencer, is, you know, what would the outcome have been of this race without the crash of Paul's excess? I think that's the big discussion point, right?

Saturday stage was a hard stage. Seixas crashed early on. We didn't get to see it in the footage, but apparently it was another great crash. I mean, it was on a downhill. He himself, you know, said and admitted that it was his own fault, apologized. He said he's gotten used to, which is also something

that I think he should try to get rid of that, you know, habit of, he discovered that he was always in a position to overtake riders in the downhill. don't do that. Just don't do that. You know, not in turns. So that was a good lesson for him. But obviously it was a serious crash.

He came back with the help of his team. And then finally, Sexas did a good climb, the last climb, but lost one minute 20, I think, on Del Toro. But 40 seconds on Jorgensen. So it was clear then that Sexas was not going to win this race. The question was just, okay, is it possible he recovers and does an all or nothing attempt in stage? In the last stage, turned out that was not possible. He started the stage and abandoned straight away.

But there's been a lot of talk, Spencer, about this unbelievable pursuit of and comeback. Yeah, so he was like a little over four minutes down. Four minutes down. And the pace was on. Like it was on at the front. Yeah. Yeah. So it was quite heroic.

You know, I mean, that decathlon has been praised for their decisions. And I think, you know, they did make really good decision. They had first, they had two riders wait, like the two big time trialists, Don Hull and Bissiger. They rode in the valley like crazy. And then two climbers, I mean, Parapentre, the brother of, who is it, Valentin? No, it's the other guy. Yeah.

Or Elielin Parapentre. Yes. Amazing pursuit, you know, and to come back four minutes on a peloton, which was definitely not waiting, for sure not. I mean, the race was on. It was again a little track, right, who was drilling at that point. I mean, it was basically Quinn Simmons was on the front for almost the entire final two days. Yes.

Yeah. That guy's strong. That guy's strong. He got dropped from the breakaway on stage seven and then they caught him and he just slotted in. Yeah. He was setting. He should then chase that breakaway down. He's super strong.

So, I mean, I'm pretty sure our podcast colleague, George Hinkapie, won't be happy to see. He was crying watching these stages. He won't be seeing the stars and striped captain America doing all the world. But I have a question about that. Am I crazy for remembering George in that same jersey doing a lot of work for Lance at the tour? Of course. Of course. I mean, that's what he had.

It's like, yeah, he has forgotten. He has forgotten about that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't think we can compare, right? I mean, Little Trek doesn't have the type of writer like Lance was who was, you know, you had almost a guarantee to win.

It's not the same. They did win a leader's jersey at the tour last year, though. That's pretty important. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

It depends, you know, what the goal is, right? But yeah, I mean, then, I mean, there's been a lot of praise and applause and for this, for this unbelievable pursuit and comeback. What do you think, Spencer? Well, I, so this is, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I, I raced at a level where there were cars, there was no TV, you could get away with a lot. And my first thought was, I think, I think some, there was maybe some cars involved in this chase. Would I be incorrect about that? There was absolutely cars involved.

I mean, four minutes, I mean, you may have the strongest rider and the strongest teammates. You can't. You can't do it. Peloton, which is not waiting, is impossible. I don't want to diminish the performance of success. It was amazing what he did, how he fought back, and then especially how he maintained his level of performance on that last climb after that crash.

That was really, really incredible. But I am not 100, 100, 1,000% sure that there was a lot of, maneuvers involved to, you know, we didn't see the whole pursuit. And I did speak to people who were in the caravan. So there's an anonymous opinion that the cars were very, very, very helpful. And that, you know, a blind eye of the commissaires, which, you know, at some point, you can say, okay, it's not fair. A guy who has crashed.

It's one of the favorites. Crash is formed part of racing, of course, but as long as it's not too obvious, I think that riders who have crashed can take advantage of the caravan, as long as it's not on purpose, you know, being like five kilometers behind one car, right? Yes, yeah. But I do think that the commissaires were very lenient

towards the French favorite, compared to sometimes other things that I see in races where they straight away make a barrage and they say, okay, you know what, this is it. You can't ride behind this car or, you know, get fined or disqualified sometimes. Yeah. This was not the case here. Anyways, independently of that, I think it was a great performance of success. And I hope that he can recover from this crash.

I know. Well, I got a little concern when you hear I can't grip the. bars safely? That kind of sounds like maybe. I mean, he will be at the start of the Tour de France. I have no doubt about that. But it's obviously disturbs your preparation now. I don't know.

Probably he's going to go back to altitude. That was probably the plan. He will do that. But he will have to recover a bit from it. He's young. So, you know, these guys are made of rubber compared to the older guys who kind of break bones. And so he will bounce back.

but it's not ideal, which, you know what? In the end, it might not be such a bad thing because it takes pressure off him. It does. You know, he will be at the start of the tour. He may, I mean, his ambition obviously is sky high, right? He wants to do the best possible. This guy, I think in his mind, has very, very realistic ambitions to be on the podium of the Tour de France. That's his goal.

But now with this crash, he kind of does have an excuse if it doesn't work out, which I think, you know, the team and his entourage should probably use this as a weapon to protect him from too much pressure. That's how I would see it. Well, can you imagine if he would have won this, the amount of pressure? It would have been, it would have been too much. It's a gift. It's a gift he didn't win, I think. I think so too. It's also the woody of one.

I mean, I don't know. Let's say he goes in healthy. I don't know if he beats Deltoro. What do you think? I don't think he would have beaten Deltoro. No. I mean, I don't know if I said this on the show yet, but I estimated his power at 6.7 watts per kilo for the,

it's a 33 minute final climb. That's a long climb. I mean, that's up there with Vindigard's best performances at the Giro. But I think on top of that, Spencer, Okay, we have the numbers. That's an estimate. Okay, that, you know, sex is probably close to that.

But I think we have to add into this equation, the unbelievable intelligence of Del Toro. He's so race smart. He is. And knows how to win races. You know, it's not a coincidence that this guy wins so many races. He's strong, super strong, but there's a lot of strong guys who don't win races.

and Del Toro somehow figures out how to win, which is a great, great talent to have. Well, yes, example of that, stage seven, it's steep. This Grand Columbia, it was not the scent I remember. I think it's, no, no, it's the first time they go up this. Okay. Different, different ways. And this was the shortest way to the top. So obviously also the steepest way.

Very steep. Yeah, they've never done this before in a race. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So there was a section like 4K at 14%. One of us a tax at the bottom, which you can't happen because you're like, I'm strong, it's steep, I'm going to go. But we talked about this extensively a few years ago with the Primo's.

It was the Primos Garant Thomas time trial and it was super steep. And their times were about the same. And then when it got flatter, Primos pulled his gap out and won the zero. So when it's like that, it's counterintuitive. You don't want to go. you don't want to go too fast on the ultra steep section because your gains are limited. Del Toro sits back, lets Euso go, and then at the very end of the steep section, he attacks, it gets a little less steep, and he just kind of mows him down methodically, catches him right

when he wants to catch him, and then goes right by him, wins the stage. It was a clinic, basically, on how to chase someone down and pass them and distance them on a climb. It was really impressive. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I mean, I think I used to go. a bit over-excited. Obviously, listen, it's understandable also. You know, he probably feels really strong again.

It's the first time since this season and since his crash in Parinise, where, by the way, he was in the leader's jersey, crashed out, that he feels again, you know, great feelings in a position. It's understandable. You kind of get excited and want to go. Yes. His interview after the race was very honest. Straight away, you know, he admitted his mistake and he got, he said he got too excited and was, you know, he was an idiot.

And then he said some other words, which we won't mention here. It was very self-critical. I thought I was shockingly self-aware. Yeah. I was pretty surprised. Yeah. So, you know, good for him. I mean, it's a great sign to see.

I also in that kind of shape. It's great for a little track also. I mean, they, I mean, if that's good enough for a podium in the Tour de France, that's a different, different story. But anyways, you know, he's back to where he belongs. And yeah, but I mean, Del Toro, man, he's, I just think Del Toro is on another level. First of all, I would say talent-wise. He's a pure talent. You can see literally, you know, you can see these guys with natural talent and class.

It's so smooth. It looks, I mean, it's not effortless. It looks so effortless. It's so fluid. It's a beauty to watch compared to some other riders where you see the effort. You know, you see it's mathematical. Del Toro looks like a natural god on a bicycle. He does, he does actually.

Yeah. He looks when he attacked yesterday, like I was just riding around my street to do the show. and he looked how I felt riding on the flat, you know? He looks just, it's so smooth. It doesn't look like labored at all. There's going to come a point, Spencer, you know, with H where even on the flat, you're not going to feel like that. We were probably going roughly the same speech, him on a 9% grade and me on a 0% grade.

But you mentioned this. There's winners. I mean, this sounds, this is going to sound stupidly simple. There's winners and there's losers. the reason I mentioned Jalen Brunson, like the Knicks just won the title. So Jalen Brunson's 6-1, maybe, maybe six feet tall. Second round draft pick, but he's just won at every level, one in high school, one in college, one in the NBA, and he beat Victor Wimonyama, who's a foot and a half taller than him.

It doesn't make any logical sense. He's just a winner. But you don't really like to hear that because it sounds too simple. But I don't know if you've noticed this same guys win every race in cycling right now. It's the same collection of four people. It's kind of shocking how much it happens. I mean, you can say before a race, like, you look at the field, you say, wow, there's a lot of good riders. And then we could have said probably dealt, I mean, this was an unusual race because there's three, three guys who have recently won big one week stage races, del Toro, Seishas, Sexos, and Iuso, both have one major one week stage races recently.

but there's usually one or two guys that you can say like, hey, that's going to be the winner and you're going to be right. It really blows my mind. Yeah. Yeah, it's very straightforward. You want to hear teams that have won one week stage races? This is pretty crazy. When this season? The last two seasons.

So this is the big seven. So, you know, this was UAE. So UAE, UAE, UAE, Dacathlon, Visma, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, UAE, Red Bull, UAE. That's nuts. And then the grand tours

are basically all UAE or Visma. So not only is it the same riders, it's the same teams. Yeah, yeah. Maybe go to those teams if you're out of contract and your street racer would seem to be

that's where you're going to win. Wait, I might have missed a, sorry, I missed a little trek because Juan I said won last year. Oh, I didn't go, over farm enough. So, yeah, he won, Red Bull, Little Trek.

Visma. I also won He's actually one. He won Torano. He went Terrano. Yeah. Last year and this year he won. No, this year he won. He's won Basque and Torano. Not in the same year. It's in separate years. Yeah. This year he won

Al Garver. Didn't win. Yes. Anything else, I think. Paul's success. Sixth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then Sikos 19 years old and he's already won one of these one-week stage races. Pretty crazy. But yeah, if you're not on Visma, I mean, Little Trek kind of, it's kind of better success.

I use as only won two of them. But when you look at the list of riders, there's not many riders actually that have won major one-week stage races. And then Pramos is won 11 of them, which is kind of mind-blown. Look, for example, a guy like Remko hasn't won a single one. No, no. So that's how difficult it is to win those races. And Pagachar is only one six. So like, well, yeah.

It didn't really focus on it. I was thinking, Spencer, you know, like, it's crazy. Like I was just reviewing. So Pagatja is now going to start Tour of Switzerland, right? And, you know, people were kind of, I'm not going to say critical, but like casting certain doubts about, you know, his performance in Tour of Romandy. You know, he wasn't far enough. People love to do this.

He wasn't far enough ahead of Lipowitz. And then you look, he, he, he, he, it was six stages. The guy won four stages. And the overall without, I mean, if that's Bogacha not being in great shape for stage races, imagine what it's going to be if he's like, like 10% better, which is probably going to be the case. People, people, people love to do this. It's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's an international pastime. The third place rider was. 244 down. It's not like he's squeaking out wins by time bonuses either, but let's take another ad break and then we'll talk about the riders that are not. Isaac Toltoe and Paul Sixth at this race and how they did. Everybody, this episode is brought to by NordVPN, which has become a must have for me to keep up with all the cycling and other sports. So we've got the NBA finals going on right now. I got the dophine and I'm on the move. So I need NordVPN. And I'm using it right now because I'm in the UK. and it's almost impossible to watch cycling in the UK.

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Upwork. Okay, Johan, so Juos gets second. He was 24 seconds back on stage seven. I thought that despite the pacing issues, super impressive. And then a minute back on stage eight finishes third. I'm still like this race is boggling my mind that Del Toro and I, Uso, we're not one and two. He finishes third 117 team back.

We still have to talk about Luke Tuckwell. We'll talk about him in a second. But one of Uso coming out of this race, how are you feeling if you're him, his team, his management? I feel great. I feel great. I think his performance, I mean, there's always a difference between the performance and the result.

I mean, he did get two pretty good results out of those last two stages. Third in G. In third or second, it doesn't really matter that much. for Ayuso, I think. And I think he knows that he could never have beaten Del Toro. And then, you know, if you calculated in the factor that what if Seizos wouldn't have crashed, then maybe he wasn't going to be on the podium. So I think it's a great result for him for Little Freck.

They rode very well as a team. And the two stages where Ayuso needed to be present and perform, he did. I'd feel great and it's definitely very hopeful for him to, you know, to be on track for a good tour de France. How old is I used to now? 23. He's an old man. He's 23. Oldest rider on the podium in this race.

That's another thing. Oldest rider. Is that crazy? On the podium, yeah. But, I mean, you know what's crazy, Spencer? is that these guys like a guy like Ayuso, you know, he basically has no hope for the white jersey. And he's 20 years old. This podcast could just be called Isn't This Crazy?

Every week we're just like, can you believe this? What's going on here? But it is, we're living through more than cycling crazy times, but in cycling, it's, it is really mind-blowing times. I mean, I used to was over a minute off the white jersey. at this race. Yeah, and you're right, he is really no chance at the tour. I mean, so it's Seixas and Del Toro. De Toro. Yeah. Yeah, he'll be on the podium of the white jersey with an amazing race.

Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, but yeah, Renco is not eligible, is he? I don't think he's Eliburgian anymore. No, no, no, no. He's 26 now, Remco, I think. Yeah, too. So, that's the cutoff. I guess you have to be 20. 25 or under. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which they have to change.

They have to have to change that. Yeah, you have. I think you have to be under 23, at least under 23. If not under 21. Yeah. It should probably to make it a truly interesting like, oh, that is a writer of the future. It probably should be, yeah, 21 and under if you really wanted it to accomplish the goal that it's supposed to.

Yeah, I'd say for the moment, I would lower it to 23 years old for the moment. We'll see how this, you know, Trent, it's probably going to keep going that way. There's no reason why it shouldn't, but 23, 25 is too old for the white jersey. Yes. And I think last week, I mean, just in general, the last few years I've been thinking, man, look, like a high schooler, just beat the Olympic champion in the 800 meters. Like a high schooler from America just beat them in a diamond league race. It is, it's crazy out there, folks. These young kids are reaching levels we didn't think were possible.

And I've been a big believer of experiences overrated. The youth is the future. But what you describe with Paul Sikas there is a great example of why experience does matter. Like maybe you don't pass people on early, on dissents early in a stage when you don't absolutely need to. Like that does show you experience, especially over three weeks because there's more surface area to make mistakes. does matter yeah yeah and sometimes you know like immediate uh gain doesn't really always translate yeah in a final gain over three weeks you need to be conservative uh but he will learn he's he's a fast learner this guy i think i use so i'm pretty hard on him probably but i think this

is a great it's a great race for him and he probably won't get the recognition he should because he only gets third and he can't win the tour can't win the white jersey but this is this is like big improvement i think the way he raised how close he was to the win and especially these were hard climbs like especially hard climbs and he didn't it hard hard climbs that's for sure which has been a bit of uh i'm going to say a weak point but that's where we have seen him fail now and then uh and And in this stage race, on the two hardest climbs of the race, he was each time the second strongest rider, which is very good, very good, very promising. Behind a freak, too. Like if Deltoro is not at this race, we're sitting here saying, well, actually, are we sitting here saying that because Woody have lost to Luke Tuckwell?

That's kind of an interesting thing. Maybe he would have raced differently and Luke Tuckwell would have been attacked at different points. But what do we make of this second place? 21 years old, Australian. I hadn't heard about them. And Australian did bring up to me that there does seem to be a bit of bias when it comes to certain riders get hyped when they're 20, 19 or 20. And then certain riders are getting incredible results and we don't seem to mention them like Luke Tuckerwell. Like he gets sixth at Romandy in another life.

We're saying, wow, can you believe this 21 year old getting six that Romandy? but we don't really notice that anymore, but clearly he's a very good writer. Yeah. And it's, I think it's this guy that was leading the Gero Next Gen last year until the last stage. Until the last stage.

So obviously a good climber. Then I heard, I mean, I haven't gone into detail, but there's been some like a very dramatic family situation. Also, I think his younger sister passed away or something. I think she was also a cyclist. And then the whole family came over to Europe. I mean, I've read, I haven't, but anyways, this guy is a big talent. Good climber, obviously a good climber.

I don't think he expected to be in this situation before the race. But, you know, once he was in that breakaway and got that time, he fought for it. And yesterday, with the help of an amazing Maxim van Hils. who was pacing him up until the finish, basically. I think Van Giles did the climb of his life yesterday, because he would never be in his, he can go uphill, but he's not a real pure climber. And man, he rode like a madman to get Tuckwell to the finish,

which is an impressive, impressive result. So, yeah, I think those guys will go away very, very happy. You know, second place overall, a stage win with Van Gilles. finishing the delphinee, I think with three riders only. Pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good, yeah. A lot of teams didn't get that out of the race.

So the Red Bull can't complain about. I mean, I guess Van Hills was paying him back for stage six is where he got the time. For sure. Because he was pulling for Van Hills then. Well, yeah, he was also pulling for the leader's jersey. Yeah. We don't mention that. If I was a good leader, I didn't even know.

That was available. I was just helping you, Maxine. You helped me on stage eight. But yeah, I don't really know what to make of this. I mean, you do kind of see it from time to time riders like this and then you don't see it again. But the way he got it on a tough climbing stage, he got the jersey. And then he defended pretty well. Like he was dropped with nine and a half K to go yesterday and doesn't lose that much time.

By the finish, he was only 143 down with a big group of, He was with Mateo Jorgensen in that group. So clearly he's a very good climber in a stage race. And then he rode away from Jorgensen, no, or no? Or did they finish together? I think he wrote away with him, but they had the same time. Okay. It wasn't ruled a time gap.

Yeah. And then another guy is Spencer, Dobias Johanesson. Yeah, this is crazy. That's that was quite the performance in the last three days. I think, you know, as you mentioned, Tilo. He lost over three minutes on stage one, which is obviously, you know, then you know already you can't win or can't be on the podium of that race. And then he just clawed back.

And the last three days, he was up there all the time and finished. Was he third last yesterday? He was third and he was closing in fast. Yeah. He was only two seconds behind him by the finish. And he almost won a stage on. He was the one sprinting against Maxime Van Hils on stage six. Yeah. And this guy finished fifth in the two to France last year.

Wait. Can that be true? Yeah. I thought. Go check. He finished sixth because Felix. Oh, Felix. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. But what's even weirder is this is the second time this has happened this year. At Izulia Bass Country, he's dropped, loses over four minutes on stage two. And then he's in the breakaway, three of the last four days, finishes on the podium, finishes third overall.

Proving it's this weird logic circle where you lose time early, it frees you up to get in the breakaway so you're free to gain the time you've lost back that you wouldn't be free to do had you not lost time and then you end up where you began. But there's also, I think there's a biological factor to this also. You do have these riders who come in a stage race and they're, you know, They struggle on day one or two, and then they kind of loosen up and get better. So I think in this case, probably, I'm just going to guess, but, you know, all of UNOX were at an altitude camp. They came straight from altitude down to the Dofine, and Yohannison must have struggled with the change, with the sudden change, and felt terrible on stage one.

but it seems that this is a trend with him. You know, finishes, stage race is always really strong and usually tends to start them in not so good condition. I mean, you can also argue that if he wouldn't be as bad in the beginning, he probably wouldn't be as good at the end. You know, it just gets better. Yeah. To flip the results or to flip the rolls,

you would say there's a lot of. riders that can't get into breakaways at will in stage races, you know? Yeah. To get, just be able to get on breakaways seemingly whenever he wants is really impressive. Not many riders that can do that. I know UnoX does, they have a really aggressive altitude protocol and actually a friend, a friend of the show who is a very famous trainer for a very famous team for a very famous writer disagrees with it and thinks it's too aggressive.

And potentially this is proving him to be. correct, that they are flying a little too close to the sun with some of the altitude preparation, because this is a trend at this point that he's having a hard time early in stage races. Yeah. But I think it's also the proof, Spencer, that the same system doesn't work for everybody. Yeah. You know, I think you need to be able to tailor it to the needs and the way different people react differently to certain situations.

I think, Johanson, by now is probably enough of an example. experienced professional to know that I mean this is going to teach him to do things differently. I mean, listen, we're just guessing, right? We don't know exactly what happened. But it's, it's fascinating to see him finish these state races on such a high level. When, you know, after stage one or two, you say, okay, well, that guy's done. Yeah. I know I say it.

I say it every time and he's proven me wrong two times in a row. he's a handy rider to have on your team. I mean, he can win out of breakaways. He can finish hype in the GC and he never gives up. That's, he's kind of the perfect. He got, you know, it's topped in at the Tour de France. There's not many riders that can do that.

He's a really, topped into the Tour de France and then he's explosive enough to get in breaks when everyone's trying to get in the break. He's the perfect rider for that team. Like that's exactly what they need at this point and level that they're at right now. Before we go to ad break, I want to ask you about Mateo Jorgensen. So he has a disappointing final day, falls off the podium. I get so many messages about Mateo where they're like, oh, what does this mean for

Mateo? And it's like, you know, I wasn't blown away that he was dropped. I kind of think he's getting played out of position here a little bit. I like him as a classics writer. I think he's a great cobbled writer. I think he's a great Ardennes writer. He can be a great one-week stage racer. but we've never really seen him ride super hard alpine mountains.

He's just, the math is against him. He's a very, very big guy finishes in a strong chase group. I wasn't, I wasn't overly disappointed with his finish, but what do you think about this? Like if you're,

Mateo, if you're the team, how do you feel about where you finish? I think he did well. Also, Spencer, let's not forget, this is another rider who comes back from injury. He broke his collarbone in the classics.

this is the first time he's back, right? I mean, he didn't do any other races before. He breaks his collar going to Amstow Gold and then this is the first time he's raised. Exactly. So, you know, let's take that into account. And he wins a stage. The team time trial. I don't know how we classify that.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Team time trial. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. He was the first guy to finish the, yeah. I think we couldn't have expected anything better. If you look at, you know, Del Toro and Ayuso, I mean, Tuckwell, obviously, is the surprise, but I don't think Matteo would have been in any situation to beat Del Toro for the win. The question, I agree. Has he been second in the doffini already? He's been second in the doffini, I think. I mean, he's very good at, he has been second in 2020.

Behind Primo's Roder. Yeah, he's very good at, I think, outperforming what, like, like, he's very good at, I think, outperforming what, like, Like he or let's just say maximizing his best possible result in a stage race, he's very good at doing. Yeah. And I think it kind of gives people unfair expectations about where he should be. I mean, yeah, I guess if you get second, you can win. So yeah, but you know, I mean, he's only eight seconds behind Primo's. Yeah.

But. And also, let's not forget double two double parinisse winner. Uh, but this is different. You know, these, these are, these are hard mountains. And I think Matteo, I mean, he's, he's a very solid. rider, but there's always going to be people who outclim him, especially on these steep climbs. I mean, the last two stages had this last steep climb. He's at the disadvantage there. So I think, I mean, he obviously was racing to be on the podium. He's not, but the performance of

Mateo Juergenson was, I think, on par with what we could expect from him. And these are just different. This is a different class of, I want to, I feel like I'm being a jerk, but this is a different class of writers like 2024 dophine Primos wins Mateo's second Derek G's third Carlos Rodriguez is fourth Lawrence de Pluse is fifth you know Mateo is still beating all those guys

it's not like he's gotten worse there's just freaks and ahead of them the number one question we get is can Mateo Jorgensen win a grant tour I think the answer is no right I mean like that should be an expectation no I think he can at best in in great

situation with a field which is, you know, doesn't have these top rats at best maybe a podium if he outperforms himself. But winning, no, I don't think so. I don't think so. There's always going to be somebody who just a lot better in the mountains. Yeah. I mean, this is, it's not going to happen because of who's ahead of him, but plus Spencer, you know, he's also, I mean, time is sticking you're very fast yeah he's what is he 26 27 now he is it's funny that that's getting up there he is getting up there in age he's uh I mean he's also an amazing he's 26 an amazing climbing Domestique because he's so big and and so good at climbing and very and very steady like he that he's the ideal guy to set that rhythm or be like be just before the big guys

go, right? I think that's his climbing rhythm. And that's, yeah, I mean, you can win really good races like Parisis, like Catalonia, even two of the Basque country. When it's really like harder climbs, like these last two ones, it becomes a problem. I mean, he has won a cobbled class. I think people forget this. He's won a cobbled classic, dwarves, dwarves, dwe, glander.

And the expectation, if you win that race, should not. be you now you have to win a grand tour. It's unique to have those skills. Yeah. To be able to combine those kind of races with doing great GCs and even winning some of those one-week stage races. I mean, it's not not for me to do, but if I was defining this goals for the next season, I'd say win Amstel Gold, top five tour of Flanders, target a non-alpine one-week stage race. Be one of the world's best domestic in a grand tour because that's what you want. I mean, to have a guy like that that can work in valleys and on climbs is really unique.

Let's take a quick break and I'm going to ask you about Isaac Del Toe. We'll talk about Suisse for four seconds because I think we know what's going to happen. But I'm going to ask you about Isaac Del Toro at the Tour of France, what we should expect from him. Everybody, this episode is brought to by Sheath underwear. Here's a hot take. Most underwear is terrible. And if you've ever had to ride longer than you expected in non-cycling clothes, maybe a hot day through London, you know the discomfort down there. And it's not a minor inconvenience.

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Okay, Johan, we are back. So Isaac Deltoro wins this race. If you're thinking, man, this guy seems to win a lot, you'd be correct. Because in his last, he did crash out of a stage race and didn't finish it. But in stage races, he's finished, he's won, he's gotten first,

first, first, first, first, the last stage race he did not win that he, that he, finished was de Giro de Talia 2025, six stage races ago, where he got second, probably should have won. So basically since last May, he is a stage race winning machine. Where do you rank him in terms of current stage racers and what should we expect from him at the Tour Friends? He's one of the top three, four best race races.

I think, you know, you have, we have Pogacar and Vingeguart and then Del Toros there. with some others, but I would say he's probably in third position right now, especially because, okay, sex, us, we don't know yet. You know, sex has the potential, but he's won, let's say, only two of the boss country, for the moment. He's only 19 years old. He's only 19 years old. Yeah, he's only 19 years old.

But so del Toro has advantage. I mean, he has, his, Paul Morris is already incredible in terms of stage races. And you can say, well, you know, who else is up there? You have Felix Gall who finished second in the Giro. I think the El Toros better. Definitely more talent. Ayuso is not there, not at that level, at least not yet. Remko?

Yeah, Remko definitely not. I mean, Remko has won a grand tour of Spain. then I was third on the tour but hasn't won a single one-week stage race. So I think Del Toro is better stage racer and a better climber than Remko. I think if you look at, if you look at it potential-wise, Spencer, I would not be shy to say that the way I see things now and he stays healthy between now and the tour. And there's no issues in the flat stages. Pugacar is in my opinion

going to win the Tour de France Jonas Fingerguard will once again be second I think and I can see Del Toro in third place he's going to be there with I mean it depends how hard he will work but you know these guys just keep going nowadays

you know that's if we look at a few years ago Spencer we had when Adam Yeats when was he third in the tour So that was the sans, it was like started in San Sebastian. So that's, that's the tour that Pogacar didn't win, right? It was it was Vingegaard, Pogacchar, Adam Yates, correct?

Now I'm doubting myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the tour that Pogacar broke his wrist in, in the Eppostom Dioch. And then. Vindigard, Pagachar, Yates. Yeah. Yates, Yates. Yates and third and fourth.

Yeah. Okay. But anyway, it was Adam Yates and third. I mean. Yes. while working for del Toro is in my opinion a better writer than Adam Yates and if Adam Yates was third while working for Pogacchar then I can see Del Toro definitely on the third spot in the Tour de France what do you think I totally agree I was even this morning sitting

down sketching out questions for you and one of them was do you think del Toro can get third at the tour. They asked him in the interview. They said, what's your role at the tour? He said, full on for Taday. I was saying it. Like, I'd like you to try for the podium, too, Isaac, if possible, I will kind of see what he can do it. He's going to ride full gas for a day, for sure. Yeah. And then he just, you're right. They just, it's like what we saw from Visima at the zero. You just keep going.

And it's good because then if you have a problem, you have someone behind you. And he's also that good that I think he can do work. I don't think he can't beat Jonas right now, especially if, I don't think so. But he can beat everybody else. Well, the thing, usually what will happen, Spencer, is the following. So you have, let's say, just straightforward scenario in a mountain stage, last climb. Del Toro is the guy who does the last launch for Pogacar, Pogacar attacks.

Jonas either follows or can't follow. Doesn't matter. Those two are gone. And then Del Toro gets in the little group behind with guys who ride their pace. You know, the Sexas and Remko and Lermco. Lipowitz and those guys. Deltoro needs a tiny bit of a breeder and he will just stay with these guys.

And guess what's going to happen when he gets to the finish? He's going to out sprint them. He's going to out sprint him. He's going to probably get a time bonus too. A bit like, okay, finally it turned out he could, but a bit like what we saw of P. Gonzalez in the Giro, but at a higher level, I think. You know, so, so yeah, I could see Deltoro on the podium, the tour.

I totally agree. I'm excited about the prospect. I'm also excited that if he doesn't, it's like that we get a third place fight between for, probably between Del Toro, Paul Sikos and Remko Evanapole, hopefully if from Co. Meant can run at it. And Lipowitz. In Lipowitz, last year's third place. Who I forgot about. Who's on amazing form, by the way. Exactly. Yeah. Maybe best we've ever seen them. So that's an incredible. It sounds funny that we're excited about the third place podium spot at the tour. But I'm actually pumped to see it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess we're going to have to, I mean, we probably will do a recap of Tour of Switzerland. But let's wait until then, until we see the level of Pogacar and, you know, whether there's going to be any suspense in the Tour de France or not. I think we will know a lot after the Tour of Switzerland. What I was about to say earlier in the show is the, what Dauphinet taught us is with the Paul Siksauss crashes.

it can be over like that. You know, we thought one thing, we thought it was going to be a duel between Del Toro and him, and it's not. It's over. It's shocking when you're a fan, you're like, whoa,

I didn't prepare for this. Like, it could, there's no guarantee that Tate just trounces through. You know, you get a piece of gravel on a descent and you're done. Like, you can happen that fast.

We saw it last year. He crashes, what was that, stage 11 in, uh, to lose, like touch of wheels. He's down.

He could go on, but, you know, he could have broken his collarbone in that crash and then had been out. So we don't necessarily know that it's going to be a Tade ahead of Yonis situation. But let's just say that happens. Let's say, yeah, Tate's out. And then those guys are going against Yonis. There's a pretty interesting race you got there. Like that's pretty enticing to watch. Not that I want something bad to happen.

I hope Taday Pagotcha wins. I'm on your side, Tadda. I don't think I want to crash. That's exactly how Yonah's finger. Guard came to the front the first time. He was obviously, he was not the leader. Roglisch crashed out and he finally turned out second in that Tour de France. It was not the plan for him to be the leader of the team.

So anything else on Dofinae before we quickly, quickly go through what to expect from Swiss? I think that's it. That's it. And Swiss predictions are very, very quick. So I love, I love this new Switzerland. So it used to start on Sunday. So we would have had two stages yesterday, a stage today. I love this.

We're letting the wine breathe. It's not too much overwhelming us. It starts on Wednesday. It's only five stages. It's all point to point. It sounds a little janky. Like it's all circuit races, but it's better for the riders and the teams because they can all stay at a central

altitude location and just go down and do these races. I'm actually going to be on the ground Friday and Saturday. So I can I'll get info right from the ratio on for Friday show and very good Monday show. But we have you know, it's hilly, hilly mountainous, hilly to mountainous stage one and two. Also stage three, there's mountains, but it could be a sprint. And then stage four is a time trial. Stage five is a pretty tough mountain stage like 4,500 vertical meters and 150K. and it goes the town where the UCI headquarters is.

Like it just kind of goes by the UCI headquarters. My favorite. My favorite people. Your favorite place you're going to, you'll be at the VIP lounge at the UCI HQ for this. I'm going to ask my friend David for a credential. UCI. Oh boy. Let's not.

Let's not do that. But then they just go up and down. It's a circuit. They just go up and down the same climb. And then they have a finishing climb. but it is going to be a really hard stage. Who is your pick to win this tour of Switzerland? For sure, Tade Pogacar.

Yeah, I think. For several reasons, Spencer, first of all, because he's the best writer in the world. Secondly, I think he's coming into top shape and thirdly, or maybe firstly, he has never won the tour of Switzerland. So that's one that's missing from his list. So he will want to win that. While you were talking about that, Spencer, before, it. used to start when Dofine finished. I had thought about this and I went back to actually crazy to think.

And it was, you know, I don't, I don't remember who made that decision. Definitely not me. So probably my team manager, but my last year as a professional. No, no way. I did the Dofinile Libire. I don't know if it started on the last day. If it started, then I would have abandoned the last day and I went, did the tour of Switzerland. And then I did the tour of France.

Oh, my God. And I abandoned all three. But the fact that, I mean, the fact that I had to do Dauphinet and Switzerland, how crazy is that? I'm sure you weren't taking the private jet between the two either. No. How crazy is that? How crazy. That is crazy.

Yeah. Who is your team manager? Oh, you know, he will know. That's such a bad idea. It was a really bad idea. It was a really bad idea. That shows you how much. That is actually a good example.

There was like a Tyler Hamilton video and he was talking about starving himself basically. And you're like, yeah, no wonder these guys are going so fast now. But that's a great example. But you just said like that's not very good preparation for the two or different. No, no. Somebody seems to think that I needed more days of competition to get. I could totally imagine this conversation. Got to get the race in the legs.

It's the only way. Get the plants out of his room. That's going to take oxygen from him. So Switzerland is going to be the Pogacar show, Spencer. Not going to be anything different. So Switzerland, they've served up a meatball here for Mr. Pagachar. He's not going to win stage three. I would guess.

But I think he will win four stages outside of that because stage one, there's an 11k, 11% climb average like 3K from the finish. Stage two. How long? 1.1 kilometers at 11%. And it's at the end of a multiple, there's multiple climbs leading into that. Stage two, there's two categorized climbs. One, 1.5K long at 9% leading into the finish line.

stage three it's two flat it's flat for the last 60k stage four is a time trial stage five is a mountain stage he's probably going to win four of those and how is the time trial is it flat or up hill 23k long flat okay maybe he's not wearing that depending on who's there let's look let's look who's here for t t uh who interesting stephan stephan kum prima's roglich yeah roglish is racing i know yeah Interesting. Matthew van der Poole is racing, by the way. You're right.

Matthew Vanderpul. Yeah. Wake, what's he doing here? Just trying to, it's just preparation for the tour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe win stage three.

Maybe, yeah. That could be. Well, he also could win. Okay, now I am kind of more excited about this than I thought. Like, he could win stage two at 9% climb. It's kind of similar to what was that stage two at the tour last year, where it was him, Jonas and Pagachar sprinting it out. That'd be kind of interesting.

All right. All right, Switzerland. Now you've got our attention. But that starts on Wednesday, goes to Sunday. I believe it's on flow bikes, I think, in the U.S. So fire up those flows. It is, by the way, impossible to watch cycling in the UK. I don't know what is going on here.

But just from a macro sense, it's a little concerning. Like, are they going to lose this whole market? Like the tour is on TNT Sports exclusive. And I spent an hour this morning trying to buy T&T sports and I could not do it. And it is very expensive. It is shocking how the watching how hard watching cycling is here. Yeah. Not good.

Anything else, Johan? It's not like when there's Belgium. There's a side. I can recommend you, Spencer, where we can. All right. We'll talk about it private. Yeah. If you want this, the ultra-oultry membership is,

Johan and I will come to your house and set up. I'm not going to guarantee that your computer doesn't get any viruses. I know. Yeah. That's part of the issue. Yeah. But anything else, Johan, before we take off? That's it.

I'm, you know, I have, I'm leaving Marrakesh in one hour back to Madrid. Oh, wow. I have to go. Okay. Get the private jet fueled up. No, no. No, no. Flying, Iberia Express.

Oh, boy. At least you're, at least you're back in the Iberia. family instead of that airline you flew to Brussels. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tui. Tui, too, too. They, like, land you in a separate quarantine terminal. All right, I'll talk to you later.

We got, we got there in the end. So, that doesn't matter. We did get there. Yeah. It's a great weekend. Okay, Spencer. Thanks. See you soon.