THEMOVE - Is Mathieu van der Poel the Best CX Rider of All Time? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin discuss Mathieu van der Poel's domination of the winter Cyclocross schedule and debate if it is good for the sport or Van der Poel's road ambitions later in the year before breaking down Lotto and Israel-Premier Tech's interesting spring race schedules before getting into listener questions.   Hear.com: Right now, at https://www.hear.com/move our listeners can sign up for an exclusive 45-day no-risk trial. So, you can hear the difference for yourself. So, what are you waiting for? Go to hear.com/move.

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You see these guys and they're winning these races all year. Then Vanderpool comes in and just makes them look silly and then goes away and goes back to the road. Like, is that ultimately good for cross or bad for cross? I guess it's good because it gets more people watching. I think it's great because when he's there or when he and Walt is there or they're not, it's day and night difference in terms of media attention and public attention. Everybody, welcome back to The Move Plus.

I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernil for our weekly show. To kick off the new year, we're going to talk about Matthew Vanderpoel's cyclocross season. Somewhat, I'm blown away by it. I have a question, Johan, if this is the best cross rider of all time. It's crazy how easy he is making these wins look, as well as a little bit of news. Lotto and Israel Premier Tech are skipping Perry Nese. I want to get your thoughts on that.

And we will dive into a few questions that listeners have submitted that we haven't got to at the end of 2024. And again, if you want your question to be considered to be read, send it to info at wedo.team. And I will get to that as soon as i can but first johan how are things going you're calling in from your mallorcan retreat your lair high in the mountains there how is the new year treating you uh well happy new year to everybody to you and to all our listeners spencer uh yes i'm calling it from mallorca uh here for a few days um i will tell i'm a little bit sick so on beforehand if i have to cough for during the during the show i apologize uh i'll try i'll try to keep it as quiet as possible but it's sometimes beyond my control. But yeah, I mean, new year, new start, as always.

And I was in Belgium for the Christmas days. And I went to see one of the cyclocross races of Mathieu. Actually, the first one, and the only one until now, that Wout and Mathieu raced together. And that was the one in Lundhout.

And so I have to say it was quite impressive. The spectators, it's incredible how many people there are, the enthusiasm, the atmosphere. It's crazy. And, you know, if Mathieu is there, that's one thing. But if Mathieu is there that's one thing but if Mathieu and Wout are together that's crazy

it's madness you know I'm still a bit blown away by how popular in Belgium how popular Wout is

versus Mathieu you know Mathieu van der Poel he's Dutch you know he's basically an der Poel, he's Dutch. You know, he's basically an adopted Belgian. You know, he's born in Belgium. He lives in Belgium.

He speaks Flemish. He doesn't speak Dutch. He speaks Flemish. You know, his accent is actually more Flemish than Dutch. He's the world champion. He's a superstar. But man, Wout is unbelievable, the popularity. And I remember that start. So obviously everybody was curious to see the level of Wout van Aert. We already knew that Van der Poel was amazing. And I remember the start and Wout won the fight to the first turn, which is always the first fight, right?

And it was, the people went crazy when they saw the first, because I was at a place and there was a big screen. So it was like he had won the race already in the first corner. But yeah, I mean, the cyclocross circuit in Belgium and in Holland, it's quite the thing. It's something that you need to be able to experience on site to really have an idea and a feel of what it is. You know, whatever you see on TV, it looks, and it is very spectacular,

but soaking up the atmosphere on site is something different. It's, it's crazy. And not to sound like a noob, a cross noob, you pay to get in, correct? So they must be incredibly profitable businesses. It's very affordable.

I don't know. I'm going to guess because this was not a World Cup, but it was another classification. I don't Cup, but it was, I mean, it was another, I think it was another classification. I don't remember which one it was.

It's like, it's between 15 and 20 euros to get in. You have access to the whole afternoon, you know, it's all the categories. The juniors, the elite women, and then the elite men. And sometimes in World C world cups there's even elite 123 sometimes so you have 3 or 4 races but it's

the experience and I think for 20 euros if you're able to stay there in the cold it's cold. It's a nice afternoon out. But yeah, I mean, I don't know how many people there would be,

but I would guess somewhere between, I don't know, six, eight thousand spectators on a very reduced circuit, which is, of course, the attractiveness of the event, right? So it's very contained. It's a small circuit where you can see them several times and obviously very easy to organize several VIP spots. It's a profitable business for sure. Yeah, it's pretty interesting to think about. I mean, there's all this,

if you think about like, there's always every few years, there's a suggestion. It's like, Oh, they could charge to attend a mountaintop finish and people lose their minds, but it's kind of, it's already happening in cross and it's, I mean, they do it at the classics as well at Flanders. You have to pay to be the key spot. So the Flemish are onto something. What is Van der Poel's connection to Flanders?

Because his dad is Dutch. His grandfather is French, but he was born in Belgium. Yeah, I mean, Audrey already lived in Belgium. I remember Audrey, his dad. We were teammates. I spoke to him before the race. I always go and see him uh whenever i go to the cyclocross uh he already lived in belgium a lot of a lot of dutch riders um lived in belgium just over the border for tax reasons it's it's tax it's a more tax advantage apparently in belgium

than in the netherlands um so a. So a lot of Dutch riders were residents in Belgium. So Mathieu is born in Belgium and lives in Belgium now also. And he actually does not speak the same language with the same accent as Adri. Interesting.

Yeah. That can happen. I mean, you're an expert in this you can have children somewhere and then they have a different accent as you are speaking the same language but so vanderpilt's raised five races so far this year one all of them is he had like a infamous i guess quote now that he's staying he said i want to stay in zone two during the races and i'll do my intensity later it's hard to believe that that could be true it's so intense it's so intense even if he's you know measuring his effort first of all the start is is full gas uh he is for the moment he's that good that he's he can permit himself the luxury to say okay i'm

going to just wait and see stay in six seven position that i'll move forward bit by bit and i know that nobody's going to be far enough ahead that i can't catch them anymore he's that good uh but it's not zone two no way it's zone two there's no way that would be almost that would be scary if he was in zone two but he is winning really he makes it look easy it never seems in doubt is is he the best cross rider of all time in my opinion yeah for sure for sure. For sure. I mean, he has, what, six world championships, probably soon to be seven. That would be equaling the record with Eric de Vlaming, which is the brother of Roger de Vlaming,

who is considered the best cyclocross rider of all times. Eric was super talented also. He also raced on the road. Actually, I think he even won a stage in the Tour de France or even more than one. But, you know, that's in the 70s, you know. André Poul is the best of all times. I mean, listen, he comes in and all the specialists,

the best in the world who have been dominating the scene until his arrival are ridiculed the first day like basically blown away yeah yeah um it's it's quite impressive if you if you if you see him you know you see it in front of your eyes the way he's on that bike and the way he pedals the you can really see the power like he has so much power and with every pedal stroke this bike just goes forward like in a way that i don't see with anybody else um it's especially he has a special way of of of riding his bike um if you if you go back to for example if you go back to paris of 2024 when he where he attacked and he in the way he rode over those cobbles that's exactly what you see in the cyclocross when you see him passing from of your eyes and um yeah for me there's no

doubt he is the best cyclocross rider of all times no discussion is it good for cyclocross it's kind of a stupid question because it's it's not good or bad it just is what it is but the fact is i know what you're saying you see these guys and they're winning these races all year then vanderpoel comes in and just makes them look silly and then goes away and goes back to the road. Like, is that ultimately good for cross or bad for cross? I guess it's good because it gets more people watching. I think it's great because that, you know, when he, when he's there or when he and Walt is there or there and they're not, it's day and night difference in terms of media attention and public attention. Race-wise, the races when they're not there are more attractive.

It's suspense until the last moment. You almost never know until the last lap who's going to win. When Mathieu is there, you know after one minute who's going to win. Personally, I like both. I like both. But I think that as long as Van der Poel and Van Aert are involved in cyclocross, it's good for all the others because it brings their, it lifts their sport to a different level, which ultimately, you know,

even when they're not there, uh, they still profit from it. It, it, it, it makes the sport more popular. Yes. That's kind of gets overlooked a lot. When that question is asked, like this is very niche, but like Jon Stewart came back to host the daily show in the U S one day a week, other hosts are four days a week. You could say, well, he's taken the spotlight, but then people will stick around and a week other hosts are four days a week you could say well he's taking the spotlight but then people will stick around and watch the other host most likely because they come in for john stewart another question wow just get i mean just not on the same level as vanderpool but he's not been for a few years like is there does it mean anything like is it matter that vanderpool's

so much better and cross is this getting in walt's head or is it just Wout's there to ride around? I mean, it's actually a little funny to me that these guys even bother to do this. Can you imagine a less enjoyable thing over your Christmas holiday? It's their first original way of cycling. You know, let's not forget that both Van Aert and Van Der Poel were exclusive cyclocross riders in the beginning of their careers. And they transferred to the road

and then they turned out to be really, really good on the road. But that's their first laugh. And it's normal that they reduce the season. I think Wout is only going to race five or six races. And Mathieu is going to do 11.

I mean, now 10, because I think today he decided not to race because he must have, I mean, this race that he did where I was, where I was apparently had a crash. I didn't even see it. And apparently he has hurt his ribs and he decided not to race today. But I think it does mean it's, it's, it's impressive to see that they're on such a high level where in theory,

both of them are preparing and they're still in full preparation for their road season. So they can't be at the top of their game. There's no way they're at the top of their game now, especially Wout. You know, Wout, let's not forget, he comes back from a very serious crash in the Tour of Spain. You know, very big recovery. He had to have surgery on the knee um if you look at i've seen

some pictures uh i mean maybe we could ask gabriel to insert one of the pictures here of wong's knee i saw a scary picture of of his knee at the training camp it's it's pretty it's pretty crazy that he's already like racing cyclocross at this high level right now. But they're not 100%. This is not their top, top, top level in terms of physical condition. It just fits into

their preparation for the coming season and the spring classics. Eli, do you think it's good preparation for the classics? It's great preparation. Um, especially because both of those guys, I mean,

I would love, I would say I would put Bitcock in the same category. You know, these guys can just show up there and do, I mean, then maybe they're going to always win, uh, especially Walt and,

uh, and Tom, but they can race. It's used this as some, some high intensityintensity training. They're not going to destroy anything in their buildup. On the contrary, they can actually use these kinds of efforts in their buildup towards the Spring Classics. In Pitcock's case, it's not going to be the case

because he's declared already that he's not going to do any cyclocross races. But I think it's great preparation for that i i guess the one caveat and also i mean someone calling in sick to work on new year's day a little suspicious from vanderpoel did he did he crash do we have confirmation of that but he did i mean i'm reading it right now they said that he fell and hit his chest on a pole. That doesn't sound great. I guess that's the one risk that you're out there in the mud and the ice and you could get hurt. So, yeah, you can. But normally, in general, there are crashes in cyclocross.

In general, it's without too much harm. It's not like if you crash on the road on hard asphalt, you can hurt yourself for sure. You can, you know, you can crash against one of those poles or a tree or this or that, but you know, there's not a compared to, compared to the, the amount of times that it's possible to crash, then they crash very little. And then if they crash usually that's not

a big deal so I think the risk is not very big at this race Lundhout the race you were at 9th place Tim Merlier just quietly a road sprinter getting top 10 pretty impressive

especially in the beginning the first lap Merlier was in in third position. He even went to first position. It's true also that, you know, Van der Poel and Van Aert were there, but then a lot of others, like big specialists were not there. You know, Iserbiet was not there. Van Toornhoek was not there. But still, Merlir was, you know, he just started

again there and to be able to start like this and then to maintain this effort for an hour and finish ninth, that means that the condition of Merlire is already really good. He did already quite a few beach races

in Belgium. That's quite popular at the North Sea and in Holland, they do a lot of beach races in Belgium. That's quite popular at the North Sea and in Holland, they do a lot of beach races. I'm not going to say it's the same as cyclocross, but it's a similar effort, maybe a bit longer, because I think the races are like

40, 50, or 60k. But obviously, Merlire is already on a good level. I guess if you have to train through december january for the road it stands to reason i mean do something that you find enjoyable and fun to push yourself i mean i i frankly would probably be and i would be where you are get me to mallorca get me to the canary islands get me out of belgium but yeah i could see it i can see how

that makes sense well one thing before we move on i don't think we talked about this the pidcock announcement that he was skipping cross to focus on road and then specifically said to focus on stage he wanted to win some stage races i was a little confused about that because wasn't that the whole friction with inios where they wanted him to focus on road and then he leaves inios now he's focusing on road what what is that about well i mean stage races and and ground tours is different right i mean i think in uh in the interview of pitcock i mean you were you were, you've, you've seen it right. And then life. I had the impression he was talking about the tour de France that they, they,

this team wanted to focus. Yes. Yeah. That's probably not the case. You know, in hindsight, I think the move from Pitcock to Q36.5, I think it's a good one man

I've also seen now in the meantime since the last time we spoke they also hired his younger brother who's apparently also really good so at the end of that would not have happened either so we'll wait and see but

I think Pitcock's going to have a good season so yeah no i agree i think there there seems to be a focus there i guess on the stage racing if you want to be if you want to win stage races you probably have to work pretty hard on your time trial so i'm curious to see how that works out because if you remember like swiss last year pretty good ride actually from pitcock but he just wasn't on the time trialing level of the the uh the uae mafia who just absolutely crushed that race i think in pitcock's case it's it's it's i think it's especially a matter of focusing on that discipline um i don't have the impression that he has been training

on time trial at all. Even since he's a professional. Now, let's not forget Tom Pitcock has been world champion time trial in the juniors. Okay, he's juniors, but if he would focus

and train on it it he could improve significantly compared to his actual level maybe that's what he's doing right now maybe that's why he's not doing cross i mean he is an incredible athlete just even the way he sits on the bike so if he yeah you're right like he can time trial if he wants to be better at time trialing i'm sure he can do it um if you like some of those feats he does in mountain biking like if you watch what he can do in mountain biking you think this guy probably do whatever he want on the road except maybe beat today pagachar because that might might not be possible from anyone at the moment but our next bit of news johan lotto just lotto now not lotto destiny they have single sponsor and israel premier tech are turning down perry

nice they're both auto they both trigger like the auto invite to that race because of the two top pro teams second division teams from 2024 so in 2025 they get invited to every world to a race they're turning it down the reason i bring this up pretty interesting decision a because perry and east used to be considered that that was like the way to prepare for the season right like everyone wanted to do perry knees because that's how you trained so it tells us how much trainings change it also tells us like the fantastic position these two teams are in they have so many points racked up in 23 and 24. This is the last year of the relegation promotion cycle. So after this year, the top 18 teams in that three-year UCI point standings will be in the World Tour.

The teams that don't make it, like let's say Astana, currently not slated to make that cut, will go down to the second division. But they currently have such buffers they can really do whatever they want i mean i guess we were talking about this before we recorded i guess like lotto will probably go to terreno adriatico and then chase points at other races but they don't even really need to chase points because they have almost 20 000 more points no they have more than 20,000 points than Arkea, Uno X, and Astana in the cumulative race, which means if Astana had Visma's year from last year

and Lotto didn't score a single point, they still wouldn't overtake them. So they've got a big buffer there. And what did you make of this? I actually was a little, maybe I'm old school, but I was a little shocked. They're just punting a Perry Neeson bite. Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, it shows you also how, you know, being in the top two of the pro team classification is actually a great situation to be in.

It's actually better than being... Yeah, it's the best. It's better than the world tour because you are allowed to participate wherever you want but you're not obliged to participate wherever you want where sometimes okay you have the right to participate which is obviously what the world tour is but we all know that there's so many races that sometimes you know having to go to certain races is a burden um in this case both of those teams pulling out of paris i was a bit surprised too because you know let's not forget there's always the factor aso and having to be politically correct

with them because they they own almost all the races. Paris needs to be one of them. The France organizers. But I'm pretty sure they've looked at the calendar and said, okay, we can't do anything here in Paris. That will be super beneficial for us with the teams we have. Tireno may be a better course for them. the teams we have. Tireno may be

a better course for them. I don't know. But I think especially they want to save their team and then really hit hard in other races to even add more points to be absolutely sure.

I think it's safe to say that lotto is going to be world tour uh in 2026 and uh probably astana and archaea will not be right uh so um So, you know, not Israel, but Lotto has also decided to not go to the Giro. Yeah. Which they did already in 2024 also. And it turned out that it was a pretty good decision because they, you know, they could use their strongest riders during that period in other races and score points. So, you know, they're being smart about that. strongest riders during that period in other races. And so I'd score points.

So, you know, they're being smart about that. So a bit surprised myself also that they say no to Parinís rather than Tireno. But if you look at it on the big scale, I think it makes sense to save your team a bit and really focus on races where you can't actually score points. Hey, everybody, I want to tell you about a new sponsor we have here at The Move, which is Hear.com. If you've ever been frustrated with hearing loss, Hear.com is exactly where you need to go. These guys are the real deal. They've got an A-plus rating from the Better Business Bureau, a 4.9 rating at Consumer Affairs, and over half a million people are already loving their super tiny, super powerful German hearing aids. Half a million, that is a lot.9 rating at Consumer Affairs, and over half a million people are already loving their super tiny,

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The best part, with insurance, flexible financing options and 100% money back guarantee. Here.com makes getting great hearing aids super easy. So if you're ready to stop saying what and start hearing the world again, clearly now is the time. So right now at here.com slash move, not the move, move. Our listeners can sign up for an exclusive 45 day, no risk trial. So you can hear the difference for yourself. So what are you waiting for? Head to here.com slash move. That's H E A R.com slash move, not to the move, move today to get that offer. All right, now back to the show. And I i guess outside of points if your goal is world tour wins you'd think what does terreno have a lot of too many of in my opinion sprint stages it feels like that's a stage race that's all sprint stages a time trial and maybe a summit

finish so if you go with the lee you probably you probably are at least in contention for a stage and you don't chew your team up at perry nice and then you keep them fresh it's probably the reason they skipped this year like think of the advantage that is you just you're coming out of may fresh when all your competition is ground down by the giro d'italia and then they went to tour stage with victor campanart this year so it pays off um i guess who are we to doubt their logic? It's been working well for them the last few years. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, we've been reading a lot about Lotto, about their struggles John Lallonga left, and where they are now in terms of sporting results, I think they've done a great job.

And I was going to do maybe a newsletter on this, but you're going to hear a lot about, oh, the relegation battle. It's, you know, Teams are fighting for points. I'm already seeing stories about this with Astana. They're so far behind. So Cofidis is currently in spot 18 in the cumulative rankings. They're roughly 5,000 points ahead of Arkea, who is winding down, question mark. They kind of are letting all their expensive riders go.

They have a bunch of young riders. They probably won't score a lot of points. x is 6 000 behind kofidis uno x doesn't score an overwhelming amount of points you have astana is 9 000 behind kofidis and to make up a delta of 9 000 points astana would have to be one of the best teams in the world this year to do that so which there won't be no so it's probably is what it is if you go to the standings and you see the last three places are intermarche team picnic post and l formerly dsm cofidis that's probably it and then israel and lotto will be promoted uno x or sorry astana will be relic astana and Lotto will be promoted. Uno X, or sorry, Astana will be, Astana and Arkea will be relegated. Arkea maybe won't mind because they might shut the team down at the end of this year, is the rumor.

I don't want to speak on their behalf, though, but that is how it's looking. Yeah, yeah. I think you're exactly right. I think by now they all have it figured out and they know how the point system works and uh they're choosing their program in function of the points that need to be scored um and let's not forget you know there's all there's also i mean a part of retaining your spot in the world tour or not there's always the prestige battle of okay it's better to be four team than than 12th team in the world you know in terms of the accomplishments at the end of the season so not everybody is worried about that uh you know losing losing their spot in the

world tour there they want to do they want to be up as high as possible yeah yeah that's true um and i guess now that now that you say lotto and israel aren't really worried like why why are they not worried about the politics with aso i guess if they have auto invites and then they're going to be world tour next year they're basically good for the next four years the only problem is they've almost been too good if you're the best pro team year after year you'll then get promoted which now if you think about it when this was introduced that almost seemed like a positive but it's almost like they're being punished it's like okay you're you've exploited the system now you have to play on the same rules as everybody else. Come join us in the world tour and do all the races.

And you got to go to the Tour of Gwangi at the end of the year, even though no one wants to go. Yeah, exactly. So we'll get into a few questions before we take off. This one's been sitting in my inbox for a while and I have not read it, but I think it's a good question. In previous episodes from Nate, in previous episodes, the comparison has been made between modern pro cycling and formula one as a fan of both sports it got me thinking simulators and wind tunnels play a big role in f1 for car setup and development with modern technology and platforms like like swift are professionals and teams relying more on virtual rides or simulators simulations. I suppose nothing beats being out on the road,

but is this a decent alternative? I mean, the big difference in F1 is they make, they have to make their own car. So they have to have simulators. Cause you, you can't just like, I don't even think they're allowed to drive their car outside of a certain

number of hours per year. Cycling teams obviously don't make their own bikes, but they do set them up and we see like setups are becoming more and more important what do you think about this johan are should teams be leaning more on simulators for their setups um i think nowadays everybody does uh not just in pros like or in the younger categories it's already the case so if I go back to back in my days I I never even knew what a bike fitting was or a wind tunnel but it's often driven by the bike brand right because they're financing it wind Wind tunnel time, for example, is expensive. And then some of the riders actually do individually bike fitting,

even if they're already pros since five, six years. And they can say, okay, I have a comfortable position. There's always room to check something which could be better, especially in time trials um so they're relying heavily on on the new knowledge and the new technology and uh i think it's great i think it's great and when you guys were famously at postal you were in the wind tunnel quite a bit right i remember that's the first time i ever heard about it that a team would go yeah it's it's one of the first times you heard about it but it's not the

first time it happened it was just not very publicized um but i i remember back in the day sometimes we went to a wind tunnel in san diego the low speed yeah speed wind tunnel which is me which means it's for other vehicles than like formula one cars or so or racing motorbikes um and it was always interesting always interesting to check and even if you had a guy like lance who had been already two or three years there was he always wanted to go back and see if we could fine-tune little details yeah and i guess guess yeah you're right it's really expensive to be in a tunnel probably the problem is you have to write your own so if you wanted to know like oh are these handlebars faster than these other handlebars it's more

complicated than even the wind tunnel can deceive you it's like oh this is fast in the tunnel but are you testing it with they don't have wind tunnels that test like flemish crosswinds that change every four kilometers and then maybe it's actually really slow they do they do you yeah yeah yeah you can decide you can test the wind for all different directions it's not just from the front and then in cycling you could also have a really fast setup but not be able to turn the bike or you're maybe uncomfortable on it. And then you're putting out less power. So it's pretty, pretty complex.

They probably should use more. I would be curious to talk to someone like Stefan Kuhn, because I know he's put a lot of work and he has these 3d printed TT handlebars that are huge, hugely important. Like that's actually what's really important in time trials as you're the cockpit. Cause all the bikes are kind of the same. I would be curious to hear like how they, how do they come up with those designs? Like they must have some sort of computer program that's telling them what's fastest.

For sure. This one, I was on the fence about whether to read this one. Many people cut it out. Hey guys, I do think about this question a lot. That's why I'm picking it. Love the show and insight.

Curious. How would you explain such a drastic drop-off for Chris Froome? It's shocking to go from an all-time great rider to barely a Peloton filler. Thanks. And the reason this stuck out to me, cause I read this and I thought, well, what do you mean Peloton filler? He's not in the Peloton. And then I remembered, wait, he is in the Peloton. then i remembered wait he is in the peloton i had forgotten that he was racing and it is weird because he won think of it he won four tours he's still racing and it feels like that was all a fever dream we had it's a very strange arc in my opinion well i mean it's very for me it's very simple there's there's before the crash and after the crash, Chris Froome. That's the breaking point. Let's not forget when he had that famous crash, when he was warming up in the time trial for the Dauphiné,

which was preparing for the tour, he was the favorite to win the tour again. And he might have won his fifth tour if he doesn't have that crash. After the accident, he had a lot of different surgeries, a long time out of circulation, you know, a long time not being able to walk. This before and after, I think physically, first of all, but also especially mentally. You know, once you get into, like right now, Froome, even if his condition

would get significantly better uh I think that he's already mentally so drained mentally so tired of you know this is his bad performances that not even not even there he would be able to come back but it's me, it's the accident. Very simple. Yeah, that would stand to reason. What if the crash never happens? Like, let's say, just like Geraint Thomas. He gets older.

Everyone gets faster. Like, what do you think is... Because Geraint Thomas is good. Geraint Thomas is probably better now than he was ever in his career. Doing pretty well. Not winning the tour anymore do you think that would kind of been Froome's path had he not crashed or do you think he'd still be winning um I think I think he probably would have won at least one more tour

de France um and then yeah I mean listen it's a even if room right now uh i read sometimes that he said yeah you know i have my best numbers i'm close to my best numbers obviously it's already what is it when the last time he won 2017 it's seven years he was decent in 18, right? When Thomas won the tour. Yeah, he was third. Yeah. He was third and he had, well, that's the year he won the, yeah. Yeah. You know, so he would still be at his highest level, but we all know that his highest level from back then doesn't buy you even a top 10 in, in

today's Tour de France. So he would have been racing, but he would not be the dominating, dominating group we had seen before. I mean, one of my pet theories is that you hit it on the head. Like the winning rides of 18 are not top 10 now. So how do you keep performing? You have to be really flexible, like mentally flexible.

Garen Thomas, incredible. Like it just, it feels like his superpower is like things are changing. Things aren't what they used to be. And Garen Thomas is very good at just like adapting, like, Oh,

I'll try this. I'll try this. Like, I think he was saying he's, he changed coaches maybe for this season, his last season would be easy not to do that. Where Froome feels it's almost like because he's so good he's more rigid in his thinking and I believe he was like

really rejected the high carb theories of like oh we actually shouldn't I shouldn't have all these carbs I should be um Ineos or Team Sky was big into not having carbs on the bike and maybe he was slower to adapt than other people that's just a theory i have no evidence of that that's just a theory of mine oh yeah makes sense so here's another interesting one about the 20 2003 tour de france i think one of the best tours of all time from jan not jan orrick but jan in the czech republic i'd like to ask johan about many specific racing moments, but mostly about this one, the 2003 Tour de France stage nine

and at Belaki's crash on the Col de la Rochette, the descent right into gap. Is that right? Is that where it was? Okay. I was a huge Belaki fan and it seemed like it might be the first time he could be pretty close to Lance in Paris. The day before it was pretty equal in Alpe d'Huez,

and I guess he was only 40 seconds behind in the GC. At the time of the crash, he lost that time in the team time trial. Did you see Belaki as a real danger in 2003 before the crash? I saw him as a candidate for the podium, but I didn't see him as a real threat for winning the tour against Lance um it's true that 2003 was a difficult thing you say the nicest tour de France for me definitely not and it was hot remember how hot it was yeah but you know my biggest stress was that you know Lance was was not in top shape you know he was not in the shape that Lance was not in top shape, you know.

He was not in the shape that he was normally in, in the Tour de France. And it felt all, I mean, I've always believed that we would win. But sometimes it felt a lot more fragile than the other years. Basically all the other years, except all basically all the other years except 99 the first year but from 2000 on it always felt like in the tour you know we have done all the all the work all the preparation we've done the homework it was like we always felt like everything was under our control except that 2003 uh i didn't know if Lance would maintain his level during the stage or if all of a sudden

he would be less good and lose five, ten minutes. That was always in the back of my mind. It was stressful. The rest of the question is this guy claims that he actually did the shortcut on his own bike and

can confirm it was rough. I think the most impressive thing is the jump onto the, on his own bike and can confirm it was rough. I think the most impressive thing is the jump onto the road in retrospect, that could have gone poorly. That's crazy. That did that in road shoes. Um, not easy to jump over that ditch, but did you see the situation in the car or were you kind of blind? Yeah, I know. I didn't see it in the car at all. Uh, I don't know how it is now with technology and TV reception, but back in those days, I mean, it's already 22 years ago.

We had TV in the car, but it was with a satellite antenna. And more often than yes, we didn't have any connection. And then on top of that, it was in the downhill of a category two climb towards gap. And we had no clue what was going on because even if I was car number one, we were not allowed to pass a lot of people because a lot of people had been dropped on the second category time. So there was no way I was going to make it to the front group on the before the top of the climb um but anyways uh we i didn't know what was going on uh we had no we had no uh information and uh i only found out after the stage what happened.

And for the pure reason that I arrived, I stepped out of the car and a bunch of journalists came towards me. Like they flew on me and they said, ah, what, what's your opinion? Should he be disqualified? Uh, I said, what happened? You know? And then they told me, and they, there was certain, there was certain, uh, French journalists who said, well, he should be disqualified because he didn't follow the course. Yeah. I love that take. Yeah, he cut the course.

Get him out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you really concerned? Was there ever a conversation with them about... No, no, no. It was on the moment the French press wanted to see if there was a possibility to qualify Lance because he hadn't followed the course.

That would have been amazing can you imagine that dq'd or he has to go back it's all running time he has to get back there rewrite the section of the road that he missed and come back he's only down 45 minutes in the gc maybe he still could have won we don't know um it is crazy he didn't go over the handlebars when he like that's a steep off-road descent on probably pretty hard road tires small road tires if you look at this if you see the images you know in hindsight it's quite uh it took quite the skills and you know incredible reflexes to have that kind of reaction you know jump off the bike and then run through the field get back on the pike jump

over the ditch again uh in the final of it to the front stage um it was it was quite something but at the moment at the moment of the incident i had no clue what was going on because we were too far behind it's probably for the best on the Belaki I think I found myself daydreaming about Belaki a lot like oh could he have won that tour I guess the thing I keep coming back to is Jan Orek was very fit that year and if Jan Orek did not beat Lance Armstrong in 2003 it's hard for me to believe that anyone else would have. So that's something I can't, I can never quite get past with the Malaki theoretical. Yeah. We've never seen Malaki as it was, it was Lance versus Jan always.

Any other time when Jan was either not there or was, I think there's one year he was there. I'm actually, I don't know if it was, I don't remember now when he didn't get second. One year he got fourth. Yeah, was that 2004? It's possible.

It's possible. There was some weird telecom years in there. Remember like, I was racing against him. He was at, at the maximum, a candidate for the podium,

um, for us. Uh, but that year, you know, he was really good and Lance was not his usual self. So, you know,

he would definitely have fit into that, that group of potential candidates, you know, because, uh, we had so you know he would definitely have fit into that that group of potential candidates you know because uh we had you had dvina kurov and you had clinton and you had young and uh who else was there i don't remember who else was there basso i guess i mean the so the next year clintonodin did finish second. Yeah. And then Basso's third. Ulrich's fourth. Yeah. Jose Azevedo.

Uh-huh. Fifth. Yeah. 14. He's in fifth. That's like Pogacar numbers. He's in fifth, 14 and a half minutes down. I mean, he wasn't our team.

Yeah. That's like you guys were the UAE of of your time just stuck in the top five um last question this will not take long i just i can't get this out of my head i sent this to you a few weeks ago and we have to address it how would tada tom pickcock and the other top riders fair at leadville which is a race in the united states and leadville colorado is part of the lifetime grand prix it's a mountain bike race kind of they a gravel race, but it's kind of a mountain bike race. Ferret, Leadville versus Keegan Swenson. Wondering why none of them come ride it.

Thanks, Russ. Well, it's in the middle of the, it's right after, it's during the vault, I believe, and it's before World Championships, and it's across the world. So that would address why they don't come ride it. I do think Lance rode it in 2009 or 2010 and set the course record. Yeah, I think – I don't remember if it's the year he came back

or if it's the year he retired. I don't remember now when he did it. You know, why they don't come, first of all, they're not gravel riders. They're road riders uh plus i mean with all due respect for let's it's called letville 100 right yeah 100 mile yeah it's a 160k yeah mountain bike race fast mountain bike race yeah and it's if i remember correctly it's up a hill and then down a hill right yeah that kind of sums it up it's also at a very high altitude like like four like three to four thousand meters of elevation it's very simple you know first of all

they're not gravel riders and then secondly you know with all due respect for the event in the big scheme of things it's not that big of a deal you know it's not it's not like something that I have to absolutely have on my palmaris these guys are never going to go there you know maybe whatever maybe one of them is going to turn into a gravel rider and

wants to go there but and let me tell you if an art or or but you or even today he would go there even at 80 percent of even in the off season that crushes there's nobody who's beating those guys yes i mean tom pickock if you watch him mountain bike he would eat this thing up and we should say keegan swenson he's kind of keegan's very good like he's a pro level mountain bike he would eat this thing up and we should say keegan swenson he's kind of keegan's very good like he's a pro level mountain bike like a world cup mountain bike racer he did race for road worlds one year oddly he got they couldn't get anyone to go to australia so they brought

him he finished inside the time limit which is not easy um so he is like replacement level pro like if you can just fly to australia finish inside the time limit world so that's pretty good yeah he's kind of a specialist at high altitude like he lives at high altitude he's kind of hacked the high altitude racing so it's not like the guy is a pushover and he's dominating everybody but the thing is i think the answer is back at the beginning of this podcast remember we're talking about everyone looks like all these cross riders look amazing and then vanderpill shows up and it's like oh wow this is just a different level i think that's what you'd see from yeah tada tom pickock vanderpill fan art i think they would they would do pretty well at this event yeah absolutely different levels you can't compare yeah i mean and the thing with like tate can climb so fast like so much faster

than keegan swenson that it would be keegan would be in the red the whole race even if he could stay close to him that tate could be like resting on the downhills while keegan's pinned on the downhills tom pickock it'd be it would be unchallenged on the downhills while Keegan's pinned on the downhills Tom Pitcock it would be unchallenged on the downhills and would be able to rest basically while everyone else is at the limit on the technical sections these guys are just so good these top guys

it's kind of fun that they don't come do it the interesting question would be Spencer let's if you take Juan Arte, Van and bitcock and today who somebody would need to ask do you know what led ledville 100 is i'm going to say three out of four would even say they have no clue what it is they don't even know definitely knows what it is and he's probably the only one the others i i mean you would be surprised that you'd be surprised if they know what it is and he's probably the only one the others i mean you'd be surprised that

you'd be surprised if they know what it is we we kind of have a test for this too if you remember cyclocross worlds were in the united states and bentonville and nobody went except pigcock of the top guys and then that's his world title yeah it's just that shows you that's a world championship it's just hard to get those guys to make it true they have such a stacked schedule already during the whole season that's logistically it's just not possible to bring them over quickly uh and then go back and uh because what's the date of that race it's like mid-august okay so smack in the middle of the volta yeah it's too it's also messes you up uh we like we saw uh maddie mahorich come into unbound yeah it's it's a hard trip it's not it's like you don't get off the plane and you're at the start of unbound it's a lot of travel and i

yeah i think it kind of messed the season up like he was was never quite the same. It's a big, it's a big ask for these guys to, to go do that. If they would do it, it would probably be because of pressure of the bike sponsor. And you know, once the, once the seat in one of gravel bike or something or mountain bike, you know?

Yeah, that's true. That's, I mean, that's like the Sagan era of your career though, when you're, when you're transitioning into being ambassador for the brand. These guys are not there at that point.

Well, thanks, Johan. Do you have anything else to add before we take off? That's it. All right. Well, we'll be back with our regular schedule next week. And happy new year to you and to all of our listeners. Okay. Happy new year to everybody.

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