THEMOVE - Is Tadej Pogačar Officially Unbeatable? | World Championship Breakdown | THEMOVE

Episode Date: September 28, 2025

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down Tadej Pogačar’s stunning win at the 2025 World Road Race Championship over Remco Evenepoel and Ben Healy, giving him a second consecutive world road title. They analyze how Pogačar once again executed a long-range breakaway against elite competition, debate whether this now puts him in the conversation as the greatest of all time, and consider how his rivals—including rising teammate Isaac Del Toro—can possibly challenge him in the future. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team NordVPN:Get your Exclusive NordVPN deal here → https://nordvpn.com/themove It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! Link is in the episode show notes. LMNT:Get a free 8-count Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at https://DRINKLMNT.COM/THEMOVE Find your favorite LMNT flavor, or share with a friend. Be sure to try the LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. AG1: Head to HTTPS://DrinkAG1.com/themoveto get a FREE Welcome Kit, including a bottle of Vitamin D and 5 AG1 Travel Packs (a $76 value), when you first subscribe! Helix Sleep: Their extended LABOR DAY SALE is ending September 30th. 25% off all orders on the site Go to https://HelixSleep.com/TheMove. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you!

The question is, would it have made a difference? Would Remko have been able to follow Pogacar? I'm going to go, I'm going to say no. I'm going to say there was nobody able to follow Pogacar. If Ayuso and del Toro are not able to follow him, then I don't think Remko would have followed him either. Everybody, welcome back to The Move. I'm Spencer Martin.

I'm here with Johan Bernil. We are breaking down. Taday Pagachar is incredible back-to-back victory at the world championships. This one taking place in Kigali, Rwanda, Bramcoe, Paul, 2nd, Ben Healy, 3rd, Matea Shkamo is a fourth in an absolutely brutal race. I'm going to, we're going to talk about, we're going to hear from our partners for a second, and then I'll run through the race quickly, and we'll get Johan's take on how it played out. But first, let's hear from those partners, and then we'll get into it.

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250 plus kilometer race very long um not clear on how much climbing there was we saw documentation saying 6 000 meters of vertical gain julio chikone just posted a strava file and it's over just over 5 000 meters still a lot of climbing seven rider breakway gets clear unlike past World Championships. I think the difficulty of the course, this meant this was not a soft breakaway. It was like very teams, countries and teams with a lot of big ambitions like France with Julian Bernard. Spain had a writer up there, Switzerland with Jan Christian, Portugal had Ivo Olivier. I thought maybe that's for Teddy Pagacar to use later. Germany had Marius Merhofer, Denmark, had a writer and the Netherlands had a writer as well. And so it was not the

usual world championship breakaway and then what i thought was interesting johan is belgium was really eager to get to the front also the u s a was working quite a bit on the front which i didn't fully understand mexico also put a rider on the front i thought maybe a little ambitious there but belgium really made this race hard the gap to the breakaway never got huge and that meant when they came into mont kengali with about a hundred it was like a hundred and five to go at the base of mont kigali maybe a little bit longer like 107 it was a is the group is whittled down. Like I would say between 30 to 40 riders and they get to the front.

Slovenia gets the front. Pagotcha goes, we suspected this might happen, 104K to go. Pagotcha attacks at the hardest part of Monkegali, which was harder than I thought it was. Like there was pitches that was 20%, maybe even over 20%,

I did not expect it to be that difficult. Pagotcha attacks. The only rider they can go with them is Juana Yuso sticks right on his wheel. Rimcoe, Evanaple was well placed, started to lose the wheel and then fell like a stone through the group. It was absolutely just it would look like he was in reverse

while everyone was going around him. We later found out his saddle had tipped down so he was going to need to bike change. Isaac Deltoro coming over the top bridges up to Juan Yuso and Tata Pagaccha, meaning we have three UAE riders at the front with a lot of interconnected storylines. Wana Yus is on UAE

but leaving the team probably wants to prove to Pagacha he's better than him. If you noticed onto the descent, Pagacha was seemed to be the most, I guess, careful. Like Deltoro and I Uso were absolutely ripping that descent. They get to a cobbled climb right after that. Deltore gets to the front and drops Wana Yuso, who went from looking fantastic on Pagachra's wheel to hopeless, basically.

Like, he, I thought there was something wrong with his bike. That's how quickly things turned around for him, which meant we had Deltoro and Pagata away, two teammates on two incredibly fast. Aero bikes, it starts to look pretty good for Pagachar. There's a chase group behind. They don't really get organized until like 84K to go. The gap is not huge, like around 40 seconds. Remco gets a new bike, gets a spare bike, catches up to the Peloton with about 80K to go.

Belgium's there. Udobricks actually made the front split. Belgium starts working. You're thinking, I don't know, can Pagacho do this? 77K to go. Isaac Deltor looks like he's in trouble. Pagotcha has to wait for him. but the gap, those two guys working together

have actually increased the gap on the Belgium lead chase group to 55 seconds. 75K to go. Remko Evanable dropped again on a cobbled climb, stops to take his first bike back because he felt like his seat was too high on his second bike. Loses a lot of time because they had to stop

to fix the saddle problem. So they weren't where he thought they were going to be. And then with 70K to go, it's pretty much over because the chase group blows up, You get a group of Ben Healy, Pavl Civicov, Mikhail Onorei, chasing, like, splitting off the chase on Pagaccha and Del Toro. I get Deltoro, who's now, I guess, his days are numbered, but 35 seconds to that group. But even though it's 35 seconds, it's not a full peloton.

It's not looking good. And then Deltoro gets dropped. Pagatra is on his own. Remko catches the chase group after sitting behind a car for a really long time. Now looks incredible, but they never, they get it within 50 seconds, but it starts going out from there. They never really look like they're going to catch them. And then with, let's say, what is it, 43K to go, Pagotra has a minute in five seconds. Remko drops Tom Piccock, who's hanging on to that very, very select group. Schalmosa and Healy are struggling. Remko eventually. I'm clear to chase

pagachar, but he never really pulls him back. It's dangling just over a minute. Ben Healy eventually drops Scho Moza, finishes third. Schalmoza, a heartbreak of the day. Has a great. ride but finishes fourth nothing to show for it metal-wise tom squeen's squins fifth julio chicanis sixth isok tautoro seventh juanus eighth alfonso elario from portugal ninth time pickock tenth and just to give you an example of how big these gaps are healy's in third at two two minutes 16 seconds back tom squeens is fifth six almost seven minutes back six seconds forty one seconds so massive gaps bogacha goes back to back to back not just back to back to back yohan but back to back having one the tour both years, that he won the world championships. I believe no one's done that since

Eddie Merck's didn't even go back to back, but he's the last writer to win two world titles, having won the Tour de France in those years, that he won those world titles. But what's your takeaway from this race other than Tata Pagachar is unbelievable? Okay, Spencer. Well, you know, as you said it perfectly, you know, that what happened in the race, main event, Pogacar does what he did last year, but better. I think last year he attacked with a little, I mean, around 100 or a little under 100 kilometers this year. He went with 104 kilometers to go on Mount Gigali, with the difference compared to last year that now this was straight away that the winning move, whereas last year there was people ahead and he left from the peloton of favorites and caught up with

the break and then got some help from teammates. Jan Trattnick, I remember, was. in there. So, yeah, I mean, I was thinking before the podcast, Spencer, you know, and while we were watching the race, I said, what are we going to talk about in the podcast? It's like, okay, my only thought was, and I remember in outcomes, when we did outcomes for this race, I was having, you know, light doubts about Pogacar, not looking super in Canada, And then, you know, the time trial, I think it was a bit blown out of proportion because Remko called him in the time trial.

But I was thinking, why did I even doubt Bogachar? You know, it's like this is, this is like the biggest confirmation that he's the best in the world on a course like this. And you can see everybody came in one by one until, what was it, until sixth or seventh place or maybe even further down. There is no beating in this guy. This is risky. He said personally that, you know, he wanted to go early and hoped that he had a group of riders, which initially he had, right, with Ayuso and Del Toro.

So three UAE riders. But he said, yeah, then, you know, Ayuso got dropped and Del Toro apparently had a problem with his stomach. So he was solo in front a lot earlier than he had expected or hoped. And then he said, yeah, I had no choice. I had to go. And you always have doubts, but I just kept my rhythm. You know, winning with what was it, 120 or 130, almost on Remko and everybody else, two and a half minutes.

The fifth place is already six minutes down, Spencer. 10th place is nine minutes down. what can we say about this guy? He just makes it look smooth. I'm pretty sure. I mean, of course, he suffers and he went to the limit and he was super tired. But if you look at the difference between Tade Pogacar, when he crosses the finish where I have no doubt,

he gave everything he had, he looks still very composed. He's not destroyed. Almost everybody else, they passed the finish line. They were dead. dead um you know there was a certain moment spencer in the race right where so bocacha had this one minute lead one minute one 10 one 15 120 and then remco attacked and he left ben heli and skilmosi behind said okay you know let's see what happens now so initially with that attack he kind of reduced the difference by 10 seconds and that was it it went back up to you know like it

Pogacha just went the same speed all the time. He did not slow down. Amazing. Amazing. You know, I mean, to do this being the big favorite. This was actually, I mean, these kind of races, Spencer, these kind of courses, that's actually the best possible if you're Pogacca, because you cannot get caught out in tactical games.

Yeah. It is the strongest rider who wins. And especially the way Pogacca races. you know it's like okay with 100k to go he goes um the plan his plan was that a few riders would follow he knew it would be three or four riders the strongest guys and there's nobody else who is at that level and yeah i mean he he came in front uh by himself earlier than he would have wanted but just you know the last i mean you could see i think the last lap is the first time we saw a bit of a grimace on his face. But other than that, he was really in control of

his effort, which is nice to seem and impressive. I like it, Spencer win. The best rider wins the best race. That's the way it should be. And I agree, you know, it's, it may some for people to be boring, but I just enjoy that kind of performance, you know, when everybody expects you to win and you kind of are there when everybody expects you to be there and you just deliver and in what a fashion he delivered well on the boring to address that up top if people think he's boring they should watch the volta spani this year where he was not at because that was the most boring race of the year um but we perceive it as risky i i think it's the opposite because by attacking so far out he's creating a circumstance where only he can win because he's the we'll talk about the

women's race at the end of this but the women's race is the perfect counterbalance to this where it wasn't hard enough got way too tactical the favorites then like let it slip away like how many times have we seen like peter sagon get drawn into a same thing with like cancelara in the in the classics like get drawn into a tactical battle everyone stares at them they lose the race like this was just so straightforward of and it was even a better course that than last year because yesterday was easier. But it's just so straightforward of like, and got a little help

from the Belgian team who was making the race pretty hard. But like, I'm going to go on the hardest climb and only the strongest riders can follow me. And even before Del Toro was dropped and even I use it to some extent, the problem that they were always going to have is A, so Remko Evanapol got dropped in that climb. So let's say Remko Evanapal catches Pagachar. Well, he wouldn't he just get dropped because he was struggling

on the climbs? And also the riders chasing because it was such a hard course. It looks like a big peloton chasing. They're all going to go slower on the climbs. Like once they hit a climb, the gap's going to go out because it's not flat enough for a big group to like build up momentum. They're going to be going slower than Pagotcha and Deltoro on every climb, which is what happened, which is why they can never catch them. Yeah, I mean, but if you see the size of the group already on Mount Kigali, even before Bogachar went, I mean, and I wouldn't say he attacked Spencer. He went to the front and just started the right faster.

faster it was not an attack i mean i almost thought he was it was the opposite i thought like he was trying not to drop people like he wanted people with him you see the size of that group what was it 30 40 guys yeah so automatically you can expect that there's not going to be a lot of people available to organize a chase um and that's what happened you know uh now listen this was a hard this was a really hard parkour. I mean, on one time, you have the elevation, but there are other races and other courses where you can have that similar elevation, but let's say there's maybe three climbs, and then there's some time to recover and to get back. On this course, there was no recovery, zero. You know, that Mount Kigali was hard, but then they already had done nine times

the lap. And then finally, what did they do? Six more after Mount Kigali. So there's there was no recovery at all. And yeah, I mean, he went first Ayuso and Del Toro were there. And there was some organization, Belgium, Belgium tried to organize Australia. those were basically I mean France a bit France also a little bit but those that's like one lap you know it's one basically what what could happen here is okay Bogacha attacked early on 100 K to go 104 be precise there's some kind of organization you need to have two or three countries and they they can do that one lap or two maybe and then their leader needs to be able to bridge which is not going to happen well yeah and and they're pulling slower than tad at pagachar yeah you know so like

they're losing time every time a non-superstar is pulling because they can't pull faster than pagachar can because kagali has weeded out anyone not like at that point you are like you are who you are if you're at the front and you're michael matthews you're not pulling harder than tatted pagachar is at that point even if he's with one of the rider a couple couple things to cover with you on this also you noticed Primos Roglish back there just playing the perfect teammate. Oh, yeah. He was there. He was there, never, you know, like he was always there.

I mean, it didn't really matter, but he was a great teammate today. But Spencer, I think what we should really also discuss here is, and especially after having read some, I mean, not a quote from Remko, but from his mechanic. for me it was it was surprising to see because ultimately Remko did a good race in the end he finished second behind the best rider who in my opinion was untouchable but he crossed the finish line pissed off in a bad mood straight after the race he was sitting there for like quite a long time really like super disappointed

And I was thinking about myself, and it's easy to say that, of course, when you're sitting behind your big screen and the sofa laying down with an ice cold Diet Coke or something like that. But I was wondering, I said, why is he so pissed off and disappointed, you know? He did, he had two bike changes, as he said. So would it really have mattered in your opinion? I don't think so. I mean, I don't think he could have beaten Bogachar today. First of all, because he got dropped on Mount Kigali. Now, we have to, we would have, we're speaking now without having all the information

because it's too close to the finish of the race. But did he get dropped because the seat had moved? Because apparently he hit a pothole and the seed of his race bike, his gold collar bike moved or tilted down. It could be, it could be, but he got, I mean, he got dropped big time. It was not with the second group and he was not with the third group. And he was in a position when Pogacar went. He was there.

And so he kind of had to, you know, he went to the right side, had to get out of the line and moved backwards. So I think it was kind of in his mind already. If you know that your seat is not in the right position, and especially on Mount Kigali, you know that there's going to be people everywhere and that your car is not going to be straight behind your group, right? So that's another thing. There's no communication, no radio communication in the World Championship. The UCI, because it's their race, they don't allow radios. So Ramco could not talk to his car saying, I have a problem in my seat. my opinion he made the decision okay i have this problem i'm going to try to hang on here and i'm

going to go till the circuit and in the boxes there's a third spare bike which is a right decision but um the question is would it have made a difference would the bremco have been able to follow pogachar i'm going to i'm going to go i'm going to say no i'm going to say there was nobody able to follow pogachar um if i use so and del toro are not able to follow him then i don't think remco would have followed him either well so mathematically he has a grievance because technically he's spent more time waiting for a bike than he lost the race by so i guess technically yes i would answer your question with a question when has remcoe evinipal ever matched tied Pagot trying to climb like that.

Is it ever happened? No. No. Yeah. So here's the thing about Red Muccoe that I don't fully understand. So he gets dropped to Machialli. He gets a spare bike. And then he changes again.

And it's a disastrous change because his car, I believe, is not where he thought it was going to be. But he changes it like a super important point of the race. Like when the chase group is splitting up, like if you're going to, going to catch Pagotcha, it's going to happen at this time. And he changes because he perceives his saddle to be too high, but his mechanic has come out and said they measured it. It was not too high. Yeah. To me, it starts to feel a little bit like the Rimco was he rattled by Mount Kigali, and he did not. I don't know. I mean, it's difficult, it's difficult to judge

because we don't know if the reason why his saddle was, had dropped. I mean, I'm going to guess so, apparently he hit a pothole and the saddle either tilted down or up, I don't know. Listen, that can be, that is very annoying and it can, it can, it does affect your performance. Physically and especially mentally, you know, and we all know that any professional rider has their bikes fine-tuned and they even prefer to ride. with one bike, although their spare bike is exactly the same position up to the millimeter, it still feels different. We mean, everybody who rides bikes knows what I'm talking about.

You know, I think, I think it's, I mean, it could be that his disappointment also comes down to basically not being able to communicate his problems, whereas the rest of the year, you can communicate that to your car and it's solved very quickly. And here you can't communicate because we all saw that he had to talk to the motorbike and say to the motorbike, okay, I need a new bike. And then they obviously said over a radio tour, even a pool needs a new bike. And then only the car could come. And in between that time, he lost, I mean, I think he was 45 seconds.

down when he changed that second bike. So is he disappointed because he thinks that without these two bike changes, he could have followed him. Personally, I don't think he would have been with Pogacar. He can be disappointed because without those two bike changes, he had a better, I mean, at least he, in his mind, he thought he had a chance. Or is he disappointed because he realizes that he made a mistake

by doing that second bike change. That first bike change was obviously necessary. Yeah. But that second bike change. And it wasn't in the worst spot. The first one wasn't that bad because he actually could get back to that group. He had a lot of teammates. It wasn't terrible.

Yeah. But that second bike change problem, that's maybe why he was disappointed because he said, I made a mistake. You know, I made a mistake because the bike was fine. You know, I don't know. It's also, I mean, listen,

if you're riding with a bike and you're, your seat angle changes and you're riding with it for a while. And then you get on a normal seed angle, it will feel different. It will feel like, okay, this is not right. You know, it's, first it was too much down. Now it's too much up. And certain riders deal better with those kind of subtle changes than others.

And, you know, so that's completely understandable. So I think he was disappointed because. he realized that he made that mistake, that second bike change, probably. Which is also understandable because he was not able to communicate it with the team. But how many times have we seen Jonas Vinegard take a teammate's bike and just finish a race with it? Think about the twas stage at the tour last year. Like hugely important tour stage and he's on someone else's bike. In the Vuelta.

Now in the Vuelta, he did the same. And so part of it is like to be a change. champion stuff goes wrong and you have to it's just not going to be perfect like even you know pagra does that all the time like he got at the tour in 2024 he attacks and he kind of balks and he gets caught by yonis and yonis beats him and he doesn't mentally spiral from it like you have there's like a perseverance angle to being a superstar and winning a lot um that it kind of doesn't feel like he has i mean i don't want to be too harsh because he finished second had a great race but that second bike change i i was shocked i was shocked watching it yeah yeah but i think i think

that's probably you know why why he was not happy with his second place but i mean i think it's also on the moment when he crossed the finish line you know he was super disappointed on the podium he looked different right i mean he was at least he was smiling and i think he realized okay this is as good as it can get. But on the other hand, I think that even a pool, it shows the mentality of a guy who is only satisfied when he wins. And this is a great trait to have as a cyclist, as an athlete. Let's go back to, I don't know when it was, but his first year pro would have been 2019, maybe. Yeah. world championship time trial you know he's first year pro he's 19 years old

finishes second is beaten by roan dennis destroyed everybody so it was not a matter of okay i lose with five seconds or 10 seconds he just ramco evanapult as a young 19 year old was silver medal in the world championships first year pro and he was there and he was pissed because he didn't win you know and and that's the that's also the one of the qualities of a champion, you know, that, okay, I'm not happy with second. I want to win. Yeah, well, okay, let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, we're going to talk about if Remko might be unhappy for a while because there seems to be an issue between him and winning when their name is Tadipagachar. But we'll be right back. Everybody, our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. drink it every day. I've got a nice little canister AG1 sent me. I keep it in the fridge. I have a mixer AG1 sent me. First thing I do when I come down, boom, I pop that in, I shake it, and I'm on my, onto my day. I don't have to worry about eating my greens because I'm pretty bad about that. I'm probably not going to do that. And I did this because I wanted better gut health,

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So go to helixleep.com slash the move and get 27% off anything on the site today and make sure to enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. That's helixleep.com slash the move. So Johan, yeah, Remko is not going to be happy unless he wins. Here's the problem with that. This is unbelievable.

Thadipagotcha wins his second World Race or Road Championships, road race, world championships. But outside of that, Like, if you just look at one-day races with over 4,000 meters of climbing, he's not lost one that he's finished since the 2022 Road Worlds, which was won by Remco, which probably does explain some of this, like anxiety or anger, Rimco has because he did beat him. And then since then, it feels like, Picotcha's gotten better and he's not kept pace with, like, like, how is this happening? I already beat this guy. But before that, he hadn't lost one of these races since the 22 worlds. And then 2021 Olympic games.

And then if you go back, the 2020 liege, where he gets third 2020 world championships, where he gets 3030s. He's like barely 20 years old at that point. And then 18th and 2019 Leage Best and Leage, his first year pro. Since then, he's essentially unbeatable in one day races with that much climbing. And even if you like, if you take away the climbing and just go world tour one day races, he all not only does he almost never lose. he almost never finishes off the podium.

And like, so he finished a second at Montreal, but he gifted that to a teammate. 29th at GP Quebec. That wasn't a great race for him. But even like, I'm looking at like Harry Rubet. That's not a race for him in any respect. He finishes second. Third at Milan-San Remo.

Like, he podiums in races that don't really suit him. And he just wins. Like, I don't know if I've ever seen anything like this. I know you said on our outcomes that Eddie Merck's is the best of all time. I maintain that statement, by the way. Are we sure about that? You still maintain that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eddie Merck's never won back-to-back world titles on the road. Spencer. Five tours, five zeros, one Vuelta, four world championships. Three in the pro. Three in the, okay. Well, three, one, three pros, one amateur. Seven times Milan San Remo, five times, Baston Lijes, three times Patti dupe,

two of Flanders, I mean, I can go on it. Five times Lombardy, world hour record holder, blah, blah, blah. You know, never, it's never going to be. It's not possible. It's not possible to do something similar than Eddie Merck's. And, you know, we're having this debate every, every two, three weeks. If we're talking about today, Pogacha, but you just can't compare eras, you know, because people say,

you know, Eddie Merck was riding against guys who were, you know, semi-professionals. That's not true, first of all. But that was the era then. It's not only Marx's fault that, you know, the cycling was not as developed. It was obviously, you know, it was a sport which was Belgium, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands. That's it, basically. This is completely different, but that doesn't mean that. the athlete Eddie Merck's from the, you know, late 60s and the 70s, if you put that kind of

athlete in today's cycling, in today's world, in today's technology, today's science, it'd be the best. I have no doubt about that. Well, okay, but just to, I don't think Pagatio will ever have 279 victories. He doesn't race enough. So Merck's like he'll never reach Merck's raw victories. But he is a lot. on pace like if he keeps us up for as long as merks kept it up he's not going to land far off those palmeras you just mentioned like and it's also the way he wins you know the way he wins it's it is it is in murks fashion he just that's just undominating people yeah yeah and so he's already only like we're just not senior titles there's only five riders have won it more

than Tad de Pagachar. That's Oscar Frere, Freira. Rick Van Steinenberg. Staten, yeah. Stenbergen, Alfredo Binda, Peter Sagan, and Eddie Merckx. So if he wins one more of these, he's tied with them. Eddie Merckes was the last person I could find that won the world title in the tour to France in the same year and won it twice, like doing that two times. I can't think of another because like Greg Lamont won the tour more than twice and won two world titles. but in one of those years, he didn't win the tour. So that already is, like, unbelievable. And Bogacha is the first one who does it two years in a row. Two years in a row.

You have the first rider to win two years in a row, both tour and world championships. The way he's winning, I mean, it's unbelievable. Like, you know, he's out there drinking his element, staying hydrated. But you're seeing guys like Jay Vine just pull up, like unable to continue with like 80K to go. Also, is that a little hometown cooking with the UAE team? It seemed like the UAE riders didn't have the leg, quite have the legs to chase Tatea Pagacar today. No, no, I don't think so.

I don't think so. What happens if, let's say, I win a world title on UAE, and UAE pays my bonus for that. Do I split that with my trade teammates or my national teammates? No. No. If you win a world championships, then you have a bonus, it's yours. and then what usually happens

is in national teams let's not forget this is a very weird race because you're racing all year together with your teammates and then that one race some of your teammates are your main rivals one of them wins against your rivals of that day who are usually your teammates

and then a week later you're racing again with them and you have them raised for you. So usually what happens in national teams, it's the day before or a few days before. Let's say if there's two leaders, there's two riders who can win, the federations have a provision of a bonus,

but usually the guy who says, okay, if I win, this is how much I will pay everybody. I don't know if it's how I will pay everybody or if it's the guys, the guys who have done something a job. I mean, it's hard to believe that if somebody is on the team and drops out after lap one, he's probably not going to get a bonus from the guy who wins.

But because they're on other teams, that's the only way to basically motivate the team because it's kind of, it feels very unnatural, right? That you're right for someone, you try to help someone win a race. And next week, he's your enemy or your rival again. Yeah, it's real weird. So it happens. I mean, it's usually, I mean, especially in the big federations, it's, that's the way it works. There's a meeting and then the leader or the leaders make a proposal.

I mean, usually it's, I mean, there's not so much, the guys don't have so much choice. I mean, they accept because they're not going to win. So they accept and if the guy wins, there's a bonus. And just in terms of teams, bonuses, this takes us to UAE. Pretty good day for UAE with three riders in the front, all three of them UAE riders. I do think it helped that they, but both Del Toro and Pagaccio were on these ultra-aero bikes and they're away alone, like borderline T-T bikes and they're swapping off terms. I turn turns I think that helped a lot

but it's it was a little weird because I use so I used so wants to like assert himself as a star he is leaving the team so like clearly he's not there's no like team allegiance there he just happens to be away with del Toro and pagachar

let's say they get over the top let's say he does not get dropped by del Toro a do you think del Toro I don't want to say working for Bagachar but that acceleration I do think right out of after Mott Kigali on the next cul-climb. I think that hurt Del Toro, the fact that he went so hard on that,

it drops Ayuso. Did he do that for himself or for the good of Tatea Pagacar? Like, what happened there? Personally, I think, you know, initially when I saw it, I said, oh, wow, Del Toro is strong. And he was even, I had a slight gap on even Pogacar because Pagacca was behind Ayuzo. Then if you hear the interview afterwards,

I think he did it as a UAE teammate for Pugachar, not necessarily against Ayuso, but as a UAE teammate, not as a member of Team Mexico, because apparently he already felt he had stomach problems and he would have had difficulties to finish the race. But still, I mean, he was there. He was one of the two other guys who were there and nobody else was there, so he was not that bad. And then he finished, seven.

Del Toro? Yeah. Does he? Okay. So, Chikone 6, Deltoro, 7th, Iuso 8th. Oh, wow. Wow, that's pretty good. Pretty good, yeah.

Pretty good. Now, my question is, Spencer, so we have Pugachar and Ayuso del Toro. It's clear that between Del Toro and Pogato, there's good vibes. They get along. They speak highly of each other. Porcatsha congratulated del Toro several times during the Giro. And it's also clear and public that Ayuso, so we all know that he's leaving the UAE, even if he had a contract, a multi-year contract.

We all know what happened in the Vuelta. He was criticizing the team and now after the Vuelta, He's even more criticized the team publicly in detail. So that relationship is done between. What did you see they tweeted? UA tweeted the picture of del Toro dropping Ayuso and then deleted it? Oh, I didn't. I didn't see that.

I didn't see that. But I'm curious to know, let's say, if Pulaccha is not dominant and Ayuso is not dropped. and Del Toro is able to collaborate would Ayuso have helped would he have ridden together with

del Toro and Pulacchar normally I mean first of all if the three of them are together and their teammates that's already one reason to ride together but in top of that if the three of them are together that's a guaranteed medal if they collaborate and they stay up front

I think personally man that Ayuso would not have collaborated. And he would have tried to, you know, sit on or skip a few turns. And then I would have been curious to see if Pugacchar and Del Toro would have attacked one of the time to drop Ayuso. I guess this takes us back to the course. Like normally, that could be a problem. But with today's course, if Ayuzov sits on, he's toast. He's beefed buttered toast because Fogacca's going to say, screw this guy.

And he's going to drop you on one of these. these tough couple of climbs. Like, and people were giving like Deltoro a hard time for, for polling. Like, I don't, don't poll with Pagacha. It's like, well, this is only option. Because if he doesn't poll, Bagacha's got no reason to keep them around. Yeah, exactly.

They thought they had a, it's funny going back and watching it. They think they have a chance for second and third. But you're like, going 100K is in front of a group like that's a lot harder than people think it is. And like, they actually probably were never going to be able to stay out there. They would fatigue. pagacho is just a freak i thought it was super interesting i'm still i'm impressed now then i mean now looking at the result i mean i'm impressed that i use so and and and del toro are still up there

like seven and eight that's that's a pretty good performance because um man once you blow on this course i know it's over yeah and i guess i guess being up there they kind of missed then like the infighting so maybe it's a little bit smoother ride but i thought i thought for sure both we're going to dn f like that's how the lights just went out on him but you know you know what so you know what also very remarkable to me spencer is you know okay he was definitely the strongest pro racha by far but on top of that the difference in i don't know if it just if it just the way it looks but his riding style and his technique on cobbles compared to all these other light guys he looked so smooth like he was not working the bike on the cobbles everybody else you could see they were

they all go really well uphill but they were working the bike because it was on cobblestones and poggacha just was like he was you know gliding over the over the cobblestones i don't know maybe it's just an optical impression but it looked very very very very smooth i feel like he has a lower cadence too it looked like a lot of the guys it's like this super ultra spin and then maybe that's not as efficient pagetcha, it was like an older school slower cadence. It's kind of what it appeared like. But I'm super interesting with these three up. Like he's like Datoro amazing. That's 21 years old. I use his 23. There was a moment where I was like, oh, man, are they going to beat pagacha? And then of course, Ted is like, okay. There's a very short moment. It was very

short. The kids, it's the kid's bedtime. Dad gets to stay up. Go back to the Peloton now. But if you're Remko, you said about Remko, like he's a champion mindset. He wants to win. in, is this going to be a problem for everyone that's not Pagachar and Pagacharo's generation? Because it seems like, I mean, this is not hype with Deltoro. And even I used to, I might have differences in the way he approaches the sport, but he's very good too. And he's very young. Like, is this going to be a problem for everyone in that, let's say the, it's funny calling it a generation. But let's just say four or five years older because these guys seem to like they're coming up fast.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, first of all, they have to get the main problem out of the way that's Bogachar. And so the way it goes now, you know,

you just have to try to stay motivated, try to be as good as possible for when the moment arrives, that he's either going to stop his career or start to fade, which may happen. And we should say like, 30, if 31, I don't know. people think riders just like fall off a cliff what happens is you get injured you know like the injuries keep you from preparing and then that's why you start to fade so like yeah

usually it's external factors that come in yeah you know so in in in those cases a guy like a remco needs to be needs to be ready mean listen he's second in the world championships he's the best of the rest and he won very dominantly the time trial it's I mean if you have a gold medal in the time trial and a silver on the road it's a pretty good campaign man yeah well the problem with for remco is so if you asked me like

so who is going to then usurp pagachar I would say my first answer would be nobody like I don't know I don't want to pick one my second would probably be del Toro that that's not normal what he's doing at 21 is not normal yeah that is listen we all know how he how he

how he won and dominated Tour de laveneer two years ago when he when he you know first time we remarked him internationally he was super strong already then he was 19 right yeah and he's been improving since so yeah i think he's he's the guy um he's the next guy for the moment until another guy shows up all of a sudden we don't know yeah these guys don't show up as much as you think though and you know like johan and i you and i you and i I, we lived through, I don't even want to say these eras. There's been eras that I wouldn't even say there was a guy. You know, like looking back, you go back through some of these.

There are like fallow periods where you're like, oh, wow, they won a world title. I didn't, didn't realize that because there's just not a dominant, like what we're seeing from Pagacha and even Evanapole is not, you can't expect this all the time. Like there won't always be. I think of Ben Healy. So Ben Healy gets third. And that's been healing. Wow. Amazing.

We think since Sean Kelly in 89. Yeah, I think it's since 89 in Chamboree when Lamont won, I think, I think Connachev was second. And Sean Kelly was third. It's incredible, actually. A guy like Sean Kelly, he never won the world championships. He was such a good writer. He was a classic writer. Yeah.

He was able to win, you know, all the. hardest races, Lombardy, Lombardy, Léyes Baston Lijes, even won the Vuelta. And he could never win the world championships. And so Ben Healy gets third. In another universe, Ben Healy's winning this race. Like if Bagotcha and Evan Nepal don't exist or aren't here. And that just kind of got me thinking. I went back through old lists.

And so, like, Alessandro Belon wins the world title in what was that, 2008? Let's say 2008, I believe. And then you're like, well, Boulon's a world. good writer. He's won two of Flanders. He is 12 career victories. Like, it seems like in the, let's say, since 2020, you no longer have the 12 career victory guy winning the

world championships. It's just like absolute superstar. Like you have Aliflupe twice, Pagachar, Vanderpull, like, wow, it hasn't even won. Sagin. That's, like, that's how like high the bar is. And you would say the oddball one is Matt's

Pedersen in 2019, but Pedersen wasn't an oddball winner. He was just early like he's gone on now to become one of the best writers in the sport like do you think that it feels to me like the bar is raising is that it depends on the course also spencer you know i mean i i saw the list there i mean they there's we don't know how the course is going to be but there's in the next five or six years there's one in abudabia for example i mean we don't know what the course is going to be and and yeah it depends on the course but uh i mean obviously isn't it's 270k it's always going to be hard um yeah but think of the

i think i think i think they should mix it up a bit also and then sometimes make it less hard because um i mean if it's if it's really if it's 4,500 5,000 meters there's only three riders who could potentially win and and and if pogacha participates is only one guy it's him yeah yeah but yeah but yeah i do think with these ultra hard courses it's too limiting but even if we like pull that aperture out so like san ramo's the easiest monument the same guys win that every year like it's never an outsider winning san ramo anymore and do you know in the last 21 top tier one day races so that's monuments world championships olympics do you know how many riders have won those 21 races four four and one

One of those is Jasper Philipson. So he has one win. So if you take him out, it's... So it's been... It's been... Bogot Shah, Remko, and Rondercouli. And Philipson. And Philipson, yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Four riders have won the last... The last 21 monuments of world championships. That's crazy. It wore Olympics. Yeah. Okay.

And even the Olympics, that was kind of an easy course. And then Remco just rides away. Yeah. Yeah. It's lean times for... for the uh it's it's also the distance spencer i mean anything over 250k it it reduces the guys who can win i mean there's so many riders who are really really super good until 200k and then you as soon as it 230 to 40 to 50 it's different it's that last hour that separates the really

huge engines from the the the good racing engines yeah yeah that's true i i mean i'm still stuck on your Merks, the Merks take. But I would say on Merks and Pagachar to some extent, it's really rare to see riders that have such high threshold powers, but also are explosive. But just before, before we leave the men's race, one thing I was wondering during the race, Johan. So we watch Remko catch Pagachar in the time trial. You know, I think I understand that these are different efforts. One is 45 to 50 minutes long. One is almost seven hours long. That would be the first difference. But how would you explain to someone watching this saying, how the heck did their form flip-flot between the two races? Like, what are the major differences

and why is time trailing so unique? It means very, very simple, very easy, in my opinion. The answer is, Ratshaw took a break after the tour, didn't race, went to Canada, big travel, time difference did two races there on on sunday he was good gifted the race to mcnulty then flew to rwanda arrived in my opinion a bit tired not adapted yet to the weather to the oxygen to the time difference and he had a week to settle in and you know relax and not not no stress no stress you know he was riding for sure he did some really good rides but he was riding with go for and i saw um and just rested and recovered and that's that i mean yeah it's a different this was a different guy today than last weekend for sure yeah no that's a good point that

he had we watched him in canada and then we're watching him in rwanda less than a week later yeah yeah he might not feel his best but i'm still blown away he won this without an altitude camp like people will on on twitter i feel like you i'm like everyone's like oh people are saying this is high altitude it's like you go to 1500 meters and try to race your bike it's not so easy when you're not adapted but he does no altitude camp just rolls up and destroys well i mean you know he didn't do an altitude camp but he may have done altitude training um whether it's an altitude tent or an altitude room or whatever you know i mean uh i think nowadays that's standard to a standard tool of professional cyclists in my opinion yeah like you

sleep i was reading some scholarship that maybe the tents aren't actually working but don't quote me on that i think they are working but what so i do think yeah i would say i think they work but so we have canada next year 2026 otsevoix france 2027 both courses that probably suit pagach are If he wins four in a row, do you change your opinion about the best of all time? I mean, Spencer, the best of all time, you cannot, you cannot compare different terrorists. That's actually the correct answer, but it's the less fun answer. I mean, listen, I have spoken with people who have raced with Eddie Marks. and you know one one guy you know may his so rest in peace patrick serku who was my coach on the track

and you know we were from the same village and was a teammate of eddie merks and very good friend he says you know what people don't realize is you see all these races so he raced with against and for eddie marks and he was not the same kind of writer as he but he was teammates for a few times he said what people don't realize is a part of all the winds he has he says if you would know the amount of kilometers that eddy merks has been riding on the front like just you know okay again spencer we can't compare okay you can't do this in today's cycling but eddy merks tried to find pictures of eddie merks where he's not pulling in front of the peloton as the first guy and then everybody on the wheel and eddie was just riding until

everybody was off the wheel. He was just an animal. He was an animal. So I am biased because I know Eddie, he's a friend. He was my hero when I was a kid. But if you speak to people who have been around him and with him and race with him, they will all say the same. There is nothing like him and there will never be anything like him. I will say this about Eddie Merck's. Like you, you intellectually i didn't i wasn't around when he was winning so but you like read about it you kind of intellectually understand it and you can't you can't comprehend it and then living now in the bogacha era you're like oh this must be kind of what it was like yeah because what he did seem so impossible and then you're like you're watching a guy like if he's not as good it's it's it's

close as we're probably ever going to see to someone as good like it is i find it inspiring i think it's cool. I don't care if people think it's boring. Also, let's go to shout out corner really quick. First one, Tom Squeenz gets fifth today. Got fourth last year at World's. I believe that's the only person in the top five other than Pagachar to be here tears in a row because no, no, Remko was fifth last year. But Squeens, the thing about Squeens, 70 kilos. I raced against this guy. He looked, I remember him looking so skinny. I think he's the heaviest rider in this race johan in the top 15 slots like that's yeah he says he said in his interview he says he's the world champion of the guys above 70 kilometers 70 kilograms and more uh and 70 kilos spencer is

not heavy it's not heavy it's not heavy but in nowadays in nowadays cycling with these courses it is a big disadvantage yeah you know if you look there's there you know there the skies of 58 There's guys of 60, 63, 64 maximum, you know? I don't know. I don't know what Ramco's weight would be. I saw del Toro, for example, is 180, and he weighs 64 kilos. That's very light, but you're like, oh, that's pushing the upper edge of what you can be. Even like Uda Brooks, he's listed at 68 kilos, he was in that group.

I was like, who's this big Belgian guy that made the front split? And it's like, that's climbing. But he's quite tall, no? Yeah. I mean, you are penalized quite a bit in modern cycling for being that tall.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Pavel Civikov is kind of a tall guy. Yeah. He's not, he's not big, but he's like heavier than a lot of people because he's just so tall. Like,

yeah. It's hard to make that weight at that level. Another shout out, U23 championships. Lorenzo Finn, Italian wins. I believe you all. he was the youngest writer in the race he's yeah pretty impressive i mean he's been

already i mean that he was um i mean he was top placing the gero uh 123 i mean he was the world champion junior last year yeah um so first year under 23 and and wins the the world championships and by far the best yeah big talent speaks perfect english by the way i think I think I'm I mean I'm not sure but I think one of his parents is English because Finn Finn is not an Italian name yes that I'm gonna guess his I'm gonna guess his dad is is British it's like the able Balderstone phenomenon he's on Red Bull rookies I believe the yeah he's on Red Bull development team yeah yeah so that Yeah, keeping out for him, there is like a proliferation of Italian writers that speak perfect English.

I feel like that did not. I feel like that did not used to happen. And now like guys like Felipe O'Gana speak perfect English. I mean, does show you maybe like the nerves in a profession. Perfect English. I mean, if you if you compare the English of Pilipogana and this guy, this guy speaks English like Juan Yuso. Oh, that's another funny example. Like you can, you can, you can hear. You can hear he's not 100% British, but he speaks English with the British accent the way I also speaks with the American accent. I guess it helps if you have a parent that is a native speaker. Well, yeah, I mean, I used to know, not, but he lived in Atlanta, no.

Yeah, we need to have a month because I read that he left at four years old. So then he was probably in the English school system or something. Yeah. There's American school or whatever. must have been an american school yeah um and then on the women's race a writer that i'm gonna be honest i don't think i'd ever heard of her madeline how do you even say her last name i think it's magdalen magdalen magdalen valier uh canadian on e f uh that's a surprise winner spencer and not from it was not a tokyo olympic situation where there was an early break she like ripped clear in a winning

move like inside the last 30k yeah i mean it was not when the favorites were going but it was like you know in the last 20 30k uh and then she dropped the two other riders who were with her which were uh fisher black yeah on on little track and mavi garcia um you know also you know mavi garcia is very well known rider he she's obviously not in the pr in her prime anymore but uh she won a stage in the Tour de France and she dropped those women and yeah she's world champion is her only a second win ever in professional cycling so that's definitely a surprise winner and then yeah i mean i don't know what happened exactly in in the women's race tactically with all the favorites you know like Wallering and Faron-Provo and Longoborgini and so forth.

So they seem to kind of hesitate and not wanting to ride with each other. First you have to ride with each other to catch the people who are in front in order to have a chance to win. And nobody seems to be willing to do that. So they were left with, was Wallering six or seven? So she was the first one of the favorites. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she definitely was like, she sat on a lot and then sprinted in that group. And I don't, I don't think that went over that well with a lot of the other favorites. And it seemed like, yeah, I don't, I thought it was kind of a strange. Well, I mean, I was, I was surprised to see the, the statements afterwards. Like the favorites said, yeah, you know, we, we don't know what happened. We, we, you know, we just don't understand how the race went. Well. Yeah.

Might have answered your own question there. But it's the inverted of men's racing, where if men's racing is the pickings are slim, it's like it's feast time in women's racing because the favorites do not seem to be like willing to control the race in a way than we see. You know, it's like Slovenia is like, we're going to line up and launch this guy.

And he's going to win. And what you see, Spencer, especially also. And I think in women racing, you see that more. let's not forget Volering last year made the same kind of mistakes in the World Champions is there's no communication so they can't communicate or get instruction from the team car

and Volering was last year pulling if I'm not mistaken I think Mariana Vos was in the final also and she was basically the way she was riding was not favoring Mariana Vos because my olive was getting dropped. She was fast.

She basically wrote her off the back. Yeah, exactly. So it's the world championships are definitely special because of the lack of radios. So whether that's good or bad, that's another debate. As everybody know, I'm in favor of radio communication because I think it's, you know, professional sports and you should be able to communicate with. And also it doesn't make sense, Spencer, when you have the whole year, radio communication and then in the most what's supposedly the most important race of the year you

can't makes no sense it makes no sense it it is chaotic which i guess is fun to watch i mean i'm trying to say this politically i don't know a way without making it sound bad but the dutch team not cooperating at the world championships seems to be like a time honored tradition so yeah it's i was confused on Saturday. Like why they should just be setting this up for Volerine? Why are they not doing this? And it just kind of seems like everyone's on their own program a little bit with the Dutch team. Yeah. But congrats to

to the medal, the medal winners. Like they earned it. There was no. Yeah, for sure. If someone wanted to be in that group, they should have been in that group. Yeah. And you know, I mean, the fact, this Canadian girl, Magdalene Valier, she was away with two other riders who are you know very established world two riders and she dropped both of them so she was the strongest there's no discussion so well deserved yeah and a course like that too like

pretty hard course not a lot of flukes on that so super impressive anything else joan you want to shout out before we take off um i think we've covered everything spencer we'll be back friday for friday yeah for the move plus it's it's now shifting i guess we'd still have lombardia but But it's really shifting to our weekly offseason show, and you can ask questions. You can send them to info at we do.com. We'll answer them on the show. And we'll also be live streaming for members. There should be a link in the show notes if you want to sign up.

And we'll live stream it and turn the chat on so you can ask this questions in real time. And that's like the best way to ensure your question gets asked. So it doesn't get stuck in the email. But we'll be back on Friday for that, Johan. Okay, Spencer. Thanks. Speak soon. All right.

Thank you. And we'll talk soon. I'm not going to be able to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be. And... Thank you.