THEMOVE - Is Tadej Pogacar Really Skipping The 2026 Tour De France Themove

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down the latest news in professional cycling, including rumors that Tadej Pogačar could skip the 2026 Tour de France and the stunning suspension of Red Bull–BORA–Hansgrohe's Oier Lazkano. Johan shares his theory on why good—but not truly elite—riders often run afoul of the UCI's Biological Passport system, and the duo debates whether this is ultimately a positive or negative development for the sport. They also discuss Isaac Del Toro's recent comments about his decision not to follow Simon Yates at the Giro d'Italia, before taking a few listener questions from the live Members' chat. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Gusto: Try Gusto today at https://gusto.com/THEMOVE, and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Hims: Start your free online visit today at https://hims.com/themove for your personalized hair loss treatment options. Results vary. Based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Prescription products require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. 

This sport in Mexico needs a guy like D'Otoe, so they obviously took advantage of his popularity. And now he's the Mexican champion for the whole year. So I think it's only going to come to the benefit of the sport of cycling in Mexico and South America. Sorry, Mexico is not South American. North America. North America. Isaac D'Oro is the best North American cyclist right now, I think. It's safe to say.

everybody welcome back to the move plus i'm spencer martin i'm here at yohan bernil we are running down our weekly roundup of news stories and professional cycling as well as taking a few questions and if you want to ask a question you can send it to info at wedo dot team if you want to make sure we see your question you can become a we do member link in the show notes and ask it live on we broadcast live to members if you go to our private youtube stream You'll see it. It's in the members portal. You should get an email if you're a member, not reach out and ask us what that's going on. But, Johan, before we get it, we have some serious stuff to get into. Before we get into that, I'm going to start with some silly stuff. The Tour de France, 2026. We did the root reveal last week. I think we thought, well, that's pretty good for Tadipagachar.

Spencer, Spencer, Spencer, sorry, before you start, we have to, sorry to interrupt you. of the top of the show, I want to talk about the hottest topic in the cycling world, in the off-season, Spencer. It's our Strava battle. I was going to do this at the end. So I've said, you know, I'm coming for you. I just checked Spencer. Spencer Martin, 10,255 kilometers to date this year.

me 10,000, 10,096. So I'm 159 kilometers behind you now, Spencer. Holy smokes. I've been 800 kilometers behind or more. So I'm, yeah, I'm catching up. So for all the followers and the listeners, you know, we have two months. What do you think, Spencer? Who's, who's going to get it? Well, who did you win last year? No, I didn't remember. I did. I did. Well, I saw you started to panic because I saw, I checked your street. You did a double session yesterday. You did two rides. Yeah.

This is a concerted effort to increase the mileage to the end of the year. I am pretty nervous about it. I had a big lead. You tricked me. You said, oh, I'm not going to be able to ride. I've got some medical issues. I thought it was done and dusted. But now you're really close.

I got to get out and ride right after this. Yeah. Yeah. Now, anyways, you know, Spencer, it doesn't really matter. But I think last year, I got to 12,000 kilometers. So I think I'm on schedule right now if everything goes okay. You know, two months, two thousand kilometers. That should be doable, no?

That's my goal. Whether I win against you or lose. I mean, listen, for all the listeners, Spencer's young father has two small kids, you know, very busy. I'm, I have grandkids. I have my, you know, my, my children are more or less grown up and I have a grandson. So I have more time. You know, so that's to my advantage.

But I also, I'm also probably, what, 25 years older or more than you? Yeah. How much older? How old are you? I'm 61. 61. So, yeah, I mean, like 23 years older, 24. So, yeah.

But you've hacked the system because the goal is you get your kids into cycling. then you're cycling with your kids. Then you're racking up the miles. That's the ultimate goal. I actually embarrassingly did adjust my wife's family always wants to go somewhere after Christmas. And we've been going a place with no riding the last years. And I'm like, oh, that's killing me. I'm losing like a week of miles at the end of every year.

So we've adjusted it to go someplace with cycling. That's serious. Just for this specific competition. Yeah. Okay. Well, you're going to, you're going to catch up there because when I go to Belgium, I'm not taking my bike. So, for Christmas.

That's the weakness right there. Well, to a super serious topic, the Tour de France, 2026, we thought it was pretty good for Taday Pagotcha. Then Remko Evitable's father comes out and says, he's heard information. He has secret information that none of us are privy to. And he knows that Tate is going to skip the tour in 2026. Do the Giro Vuelta double the real pearl of the sport? what is this secret information? This cannot be true because Tadipagaccio is making probably close to 15 million U.S.

a year to race and win the Tour de France from his team. I don't think he's skipping it. What do you think, Johan? No, he's not skipping it. I saw the interview. I saw the interview. I mean, listen, first of all, things constantly get taken out of context, right? I did see the quote.

It was a podcast that Patrick. Evanapool did. And they were talking about Remko and Taday and, you know, and then he says, well, you know, who says today will do the tour next year? Who says he will, you know, so. And then the interviewer said, yeah, well, what makes you say that? You know, maybe there's there's some rumors in the Peloton, but, you know, he didn't specifically say that he had heard that Bogachar wasn't going to do the tour.

And by the way, Machin has straightaway corrected that and said, you know, there's absolutely no plan or no intention for the day Pogacar not to do the two of rounds next year. I mean, he's, if he wins next year, he has five, five victories. Yeah, pretty important milestone there. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's a good idea. Maybe you have to speak it into existence. Like if Patrick says it enough, Taday will think, maybe I shouldn't do it. I don't think, I don't think that I cares too much about what Ramco's dad says. But I, I am convinced that it's something that got blown up and taken out of context. Yeah.

I mean, well, it's this time, like Tom Pickcock had a quote this week where he said, and you see it plastered all over. It's like, I don't enjoy G.C. racing. And you see it, do you think,

well, that's kind of funny because didn't you say like two months ago that you wanted to focus on the GC at the VALTA, but then you actually read the flow of the interview. And a lot of these, what's common in modern media is someone is on a podcast, And then you read, you read it and you think that it's an interview given to that publication, but that publication has just pulled quotes from a podcast. It might be an hour long interview.

No, I was, I saw the interviews. It was not even a podcast. It was, it was it was it was. It was Mauritio Fondriest, you know, the ex world champion who's who's also the eight there both at this gravel event in South Africa, the gravel burn looks amazing. I think it's eight days of gravel racing slash social ride. I don't know what it is, but there's definitely a competition. I think the team owner of Pitcock's team is involved in the organization.

So he's there probably to represent the team and the sponsor in Pinarello and Q36.5. Fondriest is also sponsored by Q36.15. So it was just Fondriest for his Instagram was asking a few questions to Pitcock. And he did say, you know, I'm not going to say I enjoy it, but now that I got this taste of being on the podium, I want to pursue this to see how far I can get, obviously with the intention to try to win a grand tour. he didn't specifically say you know I'm not enjoying it he said that's what I enjoy the least he specifically said what I enjoy the most is mountain biking that's that's where my skills come to the front the most yeah what deep me I mean it's very hard to and if you look at the quote it's like before it was kind of a goal in other people's heads I'd never fully gotten behind it myself now it's a little bit different I can see myself enjoying doing grand tours more I mean I mean I I mean, I assume he doesn't just do mountain biking because do you think it's the challenge of the road? Like he wouldn't come out and say, if I focus fully on mountain biking, and it's too easy because I win all the time.

Or is it a money thing? Like, why do you think he even bothers with the road? Obviously, it's, I mean, the road is, I mean, there's no other discipline in cycling that is so famous. It brings you more celebrity and money than that. the road. I don't think you can name one mountain biker, the top mountain biker, one top cycllercross rider specialist, one top track rider, one top gravel rider who is even close to somebody who is just outside of the top 10 in road cycling in terms of contracts. So I think it's safe to say that, you know, everybody who has the opportunity, they all make the shift.

You know, mountain bike, look, Alan Hatterley, he made the shift to the road. I mean, he's world champion mountain bike again. Yeah. He's focusing on the road. You know, it's just the cyclocross riders and the pure velodrome riders, but that's kind of my opinion, especially the track, it's a completely different discipline of cycling. and it makes it more difficult. Although, you know, I did watch some of the track World Championships and Joshua Torning, for example,

won the world title points race in Chile last week. Points race. That's not what I thought you were going to say. Yeah. That's impressive for a guy like that. Yeah, by the way. Hats off to Elia Viviani, retiring from cycling and in his last race got the world title elimination race in his last ever race.

So that's quite the way to go. It also shows you the level of the road, right? Yeah. Where's he been in any? You say that, Spencer, but you know, I mean, you can't really compare. You know, I mean, it's it is very, very, very specific. There are endurance disciplines, for example, points race and, you know, elimination and where you can carry the level you got on the road. But other than that, man, it's so specific.

SACL cross is the same, you know, I mean, if it were not for, I mean, obviously it's a bad, it's a bad example, but Van der Poul and Van Art, once they show up, they are, of everybody else, but they are just amazing athletes. You know, I would, I mean, the track, for example, that's impressive, you know, I mean, have you, have you watched some of the track? I mean, I didn't even know these world championships were going on. Wow. I mean, you know, Hardy Love Racing, who looks like the body, I mean, he's, you know, he's a really big, muscular guy, powerful guy.

won four world titles in one week. He got his 20th world title this week. And you could say, well, you know, it's a small world. And it is. It's a very small world. You know, you're a world champion. I mean, I know a very famous cyclist who has been multiple world champion in various disciplines. And I have heard he said, well, you know, it's great.

But basically, you're the champion of your neighborhood when you do the, when you win this, right? Because it's such a small group. But then if you look at the performances, man, I mean, Love Racing did he won the kilometer standing start 57 seconds. I mean, that's with a huge gear. So basically if you count the first lap, it's, you know, you need the whole first lap to come up to speed and you only have three laps to, you know, if it's a 250

meter track to, to get there. So it's 60, whatever, 65, 66 kilometers per hour. I mean, the speed and the sprint in the last 200 meters, when I saw one rider, he reached 76 kilometers per hour. Jeez. It's, I was thinking the other day, Spencer, I was on the, and I was riding with a friend and we had a downhill, like it's a really fast downhill, all straight, you know,

and I got to 74 kilometers per hour. And I was, I had watched the world channel. I said, man, he's guys. I did 67 on the flat yesterday. Yeah. Pedaling. Pedaling. You're not coasting.

Yeah. That is wild. Yeah. Yeah. When was the last time a non-Rodie won the cycler cross world championship? Like 2015 or something? A non-Rody. Well, I'm counting Van Art, Pitcock, and Vanderpulles roadies.

Yeah. I don't know. Like a decade ago, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, obviously, these two or these three, whenever they show up, it's, you know, it's, yeah, nobody has a chance. But like Dylan, Granovagin couldn't show up and went at a top level cross race, even though he's at a very high level. Yeah, it's very specific.

Speaking of specific, speaking of weird, why did we skipped over this last week, and I got a lot of questions about it. Why did Red Bull design a BMC bike that claims to be the fastest bike in the world when Red Bull owns a professional cycling team that runs specialized. I saw that. Yeah, I saw that. I think it's completely separate. It's the Red Bull Performance Center, which is not the team. For the team, they, you know, uses the facilities in the Red Bull Performance Center in

Salzburg in Austria. But I don't think Red Bull has any contractual obligation towards specialized. the Red Bull as a company you know they do sponsor a lot of other athletes on other gear you know other equipment then look they sponsor they sponsor Pitcock who's on a Pinarello they sponsor Van Arche who's on a Cerevado you know they so they sponsor two dogs who is on bmc by the way yeah and they're going to race these bikes I assume uh I guess so I guess so yeah yeah it's just I mean it guess is what happens when you own a multi-billion dollar international business. You might have, they're not sitting around thinking, well, if we do this, the Red Bull bike team is unspecialized.

But do you think it shows us that they might be on BMC at some point? Red Bull, do you mean? Yeah, the team. Maybe. I mean, it depends if there's the link there with the company Red Bull. Who knows? I don't know. If I was the GM of the, if I was a person.

in charge at Red Bull of the cycling team, I'd be a little annoyed that we're racing against the fastest race bike in the world next year. That's what they say. That's a very good point. I've seen Spencer, I've done, you know, with several companies, I mean, mainly, I mean, the majority of the tests were with one company with track and, you know, doing tests in the wind tunnel with this and that. I've never, ever seen any result of a test.

where we didn't have the fastest equipment. So we're always the fastest. And every new bike is somehow way faster than the bike before. If the brand pays the wind tunnel to give the results that they need. That's a very good point. It helps. Well, speaking of cynical and looking deeper, Johan, there was a Las Cano. How do you say his first name?

The bass writer. Oyer. Oyer Laskano. He's on Red Bull, Borahonsgro. If you're confused about this and say, what are you talking about? He's on Movistar. No, he transferred to Red Bull over the offseason. Didn't really race that much.

Hasn't race since Perry Rubei. It's been some rumors about why he's not been doing that. Why did Red Bulls suddenly have a roster spot available? Well, it all makes sense now because the UCI has confirmed that he had a provisional suspension after they detected an abnormal result in his ABP, is an athlete biological passport, which basically is a map of your blood values, and they're supposed to be in a certain band. And if they go above that band, it's not a positive test. It's an abnormality. And then you can go explain it. And if the explanation isn't good enough,

you get suspended. It's very rare that you see suspensions from this. There was a Unabat. Tetsam a Rockets Riders suspended earlier this year. It used to be more common. Like I think we saw Roman Kroitsiger caught up. up in this, but Roman courts ago took it to court and won. So because of that, you don't see them pull this trigger a lot. They said the infractions were between 2022 and 2024. So while he's on Movistar, Movis Star says, we don't know anything about this. And the ABP system can detect signs of blood doping, which I think used to just be like blood values, but now they can detect anabolic steroids, testosterone, and human growth hormone, but the UCI has not specified

what type of abnormality Las Cano showed. Johan, what it, to me, my big takeaway here is that we were talking kind of off the record during the tour about, you know, there's things like xenon gas that you can, any of us could use and are fantastic, right? You can go climb Mount Everest without acclamation. And we were saying, man, it would be tough to use that if you're a cyclist, even though you can't test positive because they keep such a close eye on your values. And this, to me, does confirm the good news of this test or this news is it confirms that they

are keeping a very close eye on people's values. And it's very hard to get away with stuff. But what's your takeaway from this? Well, yeah. I mean, now finally, you know, we, we know the reason why Oyer Lascano all of a sudden stopped racing, deleted his trava, deleted his Instagram or social media. and that the team Red Bull gave instructions to everybody on the team to not comment on. So obviously they've known since Pari Robe.

Yeah. I do believe that Movistar was not informed. And it's, you know, it's something that it, so if the UCI says it happened between 2022 and 2024, so they kept track of certain things that they saw in his values, whether it's hematocrate, hemoglobin, hormone, whatever, they are monitoring. And now finally they came out with the, it's probably true what you say, that Lascano presented probably some arguments and they didn't accept them. And he got now, I mean, provisionally suspended, but it's going to end up in a firm suspension.

By the way, Red Bull has straight away terminated his contract. And so, yeah, I mean, what do I think about that? I think the bio-passport is definitely a good tool. Started in 2008, if I'm not mistaken, and it got perfected over the years. It's strange to see that they are able to use this to sanction. athletes. I'm not just talking about cyclists because the biopassport supposedly is mandatory for every sport that is WADA affiliated, I guess. You know, what really comes to my attention is that it's, okay, let's not, we've seen, I mean, usually people who got caught by the biopassport,

it was years later. Sometimes, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I mean, remember in one case that I think two, three years ago, I think, or four years ago, all of a sudden they, they suspended Juan Jose Kobo, the winner of the tour of Spain, 2011, I think. Yeah, it was a year before the Wiggins 2011, yeah. Yeah. And 10 years later, they said, okay, you're, you're screwed now. Was that front, that was from a biological passport, bioposport, biop I didn't know that. Yes, yes, wow. Yes. So, you know, what is surprising to me, I mean, I'm not surprised that they never do this with big names who have a lot, a lot, a lot of financial resources. Yeah. You know, I think the biopassport is a good tool to monitor and to target certain athletes that they see certain abnormalities.

But there's a reason why no big champion with a lot of money has been put into situation. Because if anybody who has a lot of resources, really good lawyers and a lot of time challenges this, it falls. It falls. It's not going to stand. Now, the UCI has used the bio passport a few times with smaller fish. I mean, Alaskano is, I think, I think they really do their homework, you know, and they, they, they look, okay, how long or how hard is this guy going to fight this, you know? How much money is in his bank account? It costs a lot.

Once you start in this, it costs a lot of money, a lot of money. And ultimately, you have to go to Cass. First of all, you will lose against the panel, because the panel, who, the experts that are chosen by UCI, or WADA, they're on board, of course. They know what they have to do. You're not going to change their opinion. So you need to bring in other experts. And then you need to go to Cass.

And it's going to take one, two, three years. It's the end of the career, you know. And so people don't go on. I mean, what we've seen, I mean, you've named the name there, Roman Kreuzeger, who's more or less a bigger name. He fought it and he won. You know, there's other writers, for example. I mean, if you remember the case of,

Chris Frum with, I mean, this is not the biopassport, whether it was Salbutamol. Yeah. It was intravenous. Ventilin. No, no, no, no. Salbutamol is inhaler. But, you know, he got, he got declared positive because the doses was too high. He got great lawyers.

You see I dropped the case. And I don't believe that was it was not, oh, he was inhaling so much of it that he tested positive, that they. It is possible. No, no, it is possible. I thought he was taking it intravenously. No, no, no, no, no. Is that not right?

No, no, no, no, no. You can. You can. I mean, it's, it's, there's a certain amount of puffs you're allowed to take. I guess that's what he did in his test, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we should say important note on that. That was never supposed to be public.

So they were, it was a behind the scenes. You now have a chance to prove your innocence. It was leaked, but they never meant. that to be public. We were never supposed to know about it. I think it was back then the president of the UCI back then by mistake leaked it. Is that true? Yeah.

By mistake? Yeah. Wow. Wow. You know. No comment. That is. Well, I didn't know that by mistake.

But yeah, we were never supposed to know about that. There's, there's, I mean, to come back on the Las Cano case, you know, I don't know, we, obviously we don't have, we don't know, we don't have the information. What is clear is that UCI has assessed the situation and they, once they decide to push forward, they know that they have, considering all the circumstances, a strong case because the guy is not going to fight it. Otherwise, it would not have, it would not have come out, you know? Yeah, I frankly didn't even know they were still doing this to get to people of the stature of Las Cano. I was really surprised to see it. It doesn't matter the stature. I mean, if they do it, they should do it for everybody.

And it's not, it's not a coincidence that it's always, almost always rather small fish that are getting screwed over. I want to be careful. I'm not going to say screwed over, but I'm going to guess that the guys with bigger resources. are probably called in and say, hey, we're watching you. Well, I know someone that, I know someone with a lot of resources that got called in to explain themselves. And they were, it was not pursued. So. Well, there's one that there's one, there's one person, you know, I mean, this is, I mean, it's not the UCI, but she is now the vice president of the UCI,

Katarina Nash, who is, I think she's an American, but was Czech Republic nationality earlier on. And she was a mountain biker, I guess, or, you know, she was in her 40s. And she tested positive for, I don't know what. I think it was in the U.S. because it was Yusada, who, uh, who called her positive. And then, yeah, her explanation got accepted by my good friend. Travis Tigard from Usada. And, you know, she was, it was decided that, uh, she tested positive because she got contaminated by a medication for her dog.

Yeah, that the medication for the dog had it. I don't know how much I want to say. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you cannot make this up, Spencer. You cannot make this up. My dog, my homework was basically, but even we don't want to get too. Vice President of the UCI, by the way. Was she not vice president at the time? I don't know about that.

I don't know about that. It definitely is not a great look. Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, there's a guy on the UCI, Spencer, there's a guy on the UCI in a very important position. I would say he's probably the number three in the UCI. You know, if you have La Partien, then you have Amina Lanaya, who's the director of the UCI. and then her ex-husband, they were married before now, they're divorced, but her ex-husband, Belgian guy called Petre van de Nabila,

who is the sport director of the UCI. You know, somebody sent me an article and I did some research. He tested positive in 1993. He was a cyclocross rider. And he's now number three in the UCI. So, you know, vice president tested positive. Number three in the UCI tested positive. You know, pick and choose.

No comment. There was an American sprinter very young. Like in his prime, before the Paris Olympics test positive for steroid, Usada said, well, that steroid sometimes is used in cattle. So who's to say where that came from? You're like, well, that's a pretty watt. That means that anyone can use that steroid now because how do you know how you got it? The thing I thought about with this, though, if you were race, Las Cona was ripping up.

the scene in 2023 and 24. If you were a rider racing against him, you'd say, well, that kind of stinks. But I would, also, if you're Red Bull, you're like, well, could you have told us before we spent a bunch of money signing the guy? I guess they probably didn't pay him after Roubae.

So what is that, two, three months of payment. Yeah, yeah. But you have to feel a little aggrieved here if you're Red Bull, I would think. Yeah, I mean, you know, normally as a team, you are entitled to ask for the medical files, you know? I mean, I know if they did that or not. As a team, you don't have access to the data of the biological passport.

But I would think probably that Las Cana was not informed when he signed, when he signed, he was not informed that he was in trouble when he signed with. He probably had no idea with Red Bull. Because, you know, I mean, one of the things of the biological passport, which I think that's why they should, how they should use it is that if they detect abnormalities, You don't say anything. And you keep following and targeting that rider. You know, when you see and then you try to, you try to using that information, then you try to catch the rider with a real anti-doping control, which that's black and white. The biological passport, and that's why it would not stand up in court, in normal court. There's no result.

It's an interpretation. And so, you know, it's not yes or no black. or why positive or negative. That's not the case, you know? So if they would do that, I mean, I don't know why they, I mean, yeah. I mean, listen, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not the same thing that they do it to know if something's funny going on and then they hammer you with tests.

They're on you all the time. Let's take a quick break and then I'm going to ask you if you think this is making the sport cleaner or not when we get back. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Gusto. What is Gusto you might ask? Well, it's an online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one, remote, friendly, and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire, on board, and support your team from anywhere.

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It's quick and simple to sign up to Gusto, just transfer your existing data to get it up and running fast, and don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash the move and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months free of payroll at gusto.com slash the move. One more time, g-U-S-T-O.com slash the move. Okay, Johan, we're back. Do you think Las Cano aside, I mean, if he is innocent, I feel terrible for the guy, obviously. And you're right, they should be applying this to everybody. We don't know if they're not.

Maybe they are. But do you think this type of, this ABP system is helping to make cycling cleaner? I do. I definitely do. I've seen it being introduced when I was at the S in 2008 and I can definitely say there is a before and after. There is a before and after the biological passport for sure. So I do think it's a great tool, but it needs to be used for its purpose. I mean, look, I mean, I'm still thinking about about Kobo, you know, whatever he, I mean, he won the Vuelta. Whatever he did, I don't know what he did. It was a surprise, but he won and he did not get caught in the controls. I mean, it is a bit far-fetched to then go after a guy 10 years later, who you know, first of all, had gone to a massive depression after he quit cycling.

He's completely out of resources, you know, lives a very simple life and will not even fight, not even try to appeal. typically that's the kind of things that I'm seeing with the biological passport. Like three, four years later, all of us are, oh, this guy's already four years retired, but now he's suspended for three years. He's four years retired already. Do you think it's a fear tactic? Because obviously there's no risks that Kobo is going to race.

So why do they care? Is it just a strike fear into people? It was definitely, I think the case of Kobo is definitely one of the, things that they considered very well and that they were going to use to set an example. Say, hey, you know, even 10 years later, look what can happen. You know, you can have your victory taken away. And this guy, you know, they took away his win. And, you know, then, I mean, then they gave it to Frum, no, the victory?

Yeah, Frum has it, I think. Yeah. Which is funny because then Frum got caught up also. A similar thing. What? Yeah, it is a little weird. I don't quite understand why they went after him. I know there was a lot of questions.

It was to set an example and to say, hey, look, you know, you're never, you're never out of trouble, which, you know, which I think is not a bad, it's not a bad theory. But I would like to see this system tested with a big name who has won a lot of races and who has access to the same resources that your accusers have. That would be an interesting exercise. Yeah, the pushback on that, just to play devil's advocate, I would say maybe there is something to be said for not doing that. Because if the way it currently is, it's you send a chill through the doping market. People are like, ooh, I don't know.

Like, that seems tough. And if you take on, I'm just saying this name. I'm not saying this person should be dinged by this. I'm just using the highest paid writer I can think of. if you take on Tade Pagacchar head on, would he just blow the whole system up? That would be my fear. That if you really try to take on a highly paid rider. Probably not him, but his backers.

Yeah. So speaking about unlimited resources. Yeah. And you think, well, is actually doing more good? It's this kind of vague. Maybe we'll get you. Maybe we won't. But you better not test us.

It's definitely psychological war also for sure. Listen, I am, just to make it clear, you know, I am very pro biological passport because I've seen it provoke a big change in the sport, but it needs to be used for what it's for its purpose. I disagree. I don't know. I like, maybe I like this that I think that it's all vague and they go after people. They know they, it's kind of how the police are actually. Like a prosecutor is not going to bring a case. They think, well, you know, I know.

I know people who have been in Cass who were attacked by the biological passport and who have lost. And, you know, whether they've, you have no chance. You have zero chance. If once you're up there, you could be innocent too, we should say. Well, I mean, that's always the thing. You know, this guy probably, he was probably, it was unintentional. It wasn't he he did test positive. It was unintentional.

And yeah, he got he got sanctioned. And, you know, he could not convince any of the panel experts that his theory was what happened. You know, how do you prove that, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. The nightmare, nightmare scenario, I would say. I would not want to go through that. Shifting gears to UAE, Isaac Deltore. UAE is at training camp, by the way.

If anyone wants to understand the toll of being a... Spencer, it's not training camp. It's sponsor gap. It's not, you're not at home, I guess. Like, you're still... No, no, no. They're in the UAE, yeah, yeah. I mean, when did they wrap up? The season finished two weeks ago.

And now they're on... To me, that would be very hard to do it. It's three, four days. It's fine. It's three, four days. It's not a problem. But we should... So, Isaac Deltoro's there.

He won the Mexican Championships last weekend. Double, yeah, double, yeah. And flew, I guess, straight to Abu Dhabi. He's there in the new Mexican, I don't know if you saw the Mexican jersey he was wearing on the podium. It was not good. Now, we have a picture here that cable could put up. I think it's nice.

You know, I mean, it's the Mexican flag on a white background. I think, you know, listen, it's very important for Mexican cycling, for South American cycling to have, you know, a star in the making like, I mean, he's already a star, but, you know, to have him ride with the Mexican jersey all year long in all disciplines, both times. I mean, did you watch the, did you see some images of the Mexican championship? No. He was, he was, he was just, it was on a, he was on a training right.

It was unbelievable. He was, yeah, it was, listen, I mean, I think he was suspiciously close to where he's from, too. Is he involved in the, it was in his home region. Yeah. I mean, I guess I think they did the right thing. You know, yes, it's, I mean, it's a bit controversial because, you know, I did speak with my friend Raula Al-Qala, have a bit of background information on what happened there with the Mexican Federation, which was suspended, by the way, for several years, I think, because of corruption and, you know, And so now there's a new federation.

I don't think it's a federation. It's called Association, Mexican Cycling Association or something. But it's, I mean, something strange happened. There were no elections. There's somebody there that was put into place without having any elections. But so that's a different debate. But, you know, for the sport of cycling in Mexico, I think, having this event was important, I think, for the existence of this new association.

And having it in the home region of Izadryl Toro was obviously a guarantee for success. There was a lot of people. Infrastructure was a bit poor, very poor. But the people were very enthusiastic. And I think, you know, this sport in Mexico needs a guy like Del Toro. So they obviously took advantage of his popularity. and now he's the Mexican champion for the whole year. So I think it's only going to come to the benefit of the sport of cycling in Mexico and in South America.

Sorry. Mexico is not South America. North America. North America. Isaac Deltore is the best North American cyclist right now, I think. It's safe to say. Can you say Latin America? It's definitely Latin America.

It's Latin America. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. No, no, Mexico is Latin America, but it's not South America. It's not. Yeah. It's a good trivia question. Yeah.

Yeah. When did they have this jersey printed? Was this like two months ago, three months ago? I don't assume this. Spencer, just do this last second. They are riding that they're, you know, the, the, the bike brand, the clothing brand is Pisae, which is now also owned apparently by the Emirates. So, you know, they, yeah, they do it whatever, whenever they have to, you know, even overnight or.

So, yeah. It's, I think it's, it's not. It's nice. It's not easy to integrate the flag when somebody wins the championship. There are certain countries, for example, I think one of the Oliveira brothers is Portuguese champion. It's hard to distinguish between the normal jersey. And then on the other hand, you have Tim Wellens, who has the full, you know, Belgian, Belgian jersey, because that's an imposition of the Belgian Federation. You cannot modify it.

You have to just wear the tree color. Belgian Federation is a lot of power. Isn't there some other rule that they, like you have to. You have to participate in the national championships. Otherwise, you're not selected for the world championships. Yeah. It's a lot of heft they have there. I don't know if you saw.

I don't know where this interview was given now that I'm questioning everything, Johan. But Isaac Zaltoro gave an interview recently where he's a lot of time. said he was not informed that while Van Art was up the road on stage 20 of the Giro d'Italia, that the team didn't tell him until Simon Yates had 55 seconds. By that point, it was too late.

It's kind of hard for me to believe that this is true. Yeah. Did you see the interview or did you see the quote? I saw the quote and now I'm wondering what the context was. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's possible. I don't know. I think it's a bit

strange. Sorry. Everybody knew Van Art was up the road. I mean, they were gone since basically the start. I mean, they had like 10 minute, 10 minute gap. So it's, I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe Del Toro meant that he didn't know that Van Art was so close to to that he was going to make it over the top, I guess, is maybe what he meant.

I don't know. Yeah. It does show you there wasn't. they were not working hand and glove with del Toro on the climb that when Yates attacked, at least Del Toro is saying he hadn't quite considered the possibility that Yates could connect with Van Art. You would think that that's something the team would be in communication with them about. No, that's definitely something.

I mean, listen, you have to be all over this, you know, like in from the car. Even the rider can say, the writer can be confused. He can be on the limit. He can be cross-eyed. He cannot think straight. You know, that's one thing. And that's understandable. but from the car, you need to have this situation under control and say,

okay, this is the situation. This is the possible outcome. We cannot let this happen. You know, I've said from the start, both EF and UAE on that particular stage made the mistake not on the call of the Finestre. They made the mistake 50, 60 kilometers before. You know, if they don't allow this group to have 10 minutes and if they leave it four minutes, then Van Ard doesn't make it.

over the Colod de Finestra and no, everything's more or less okay, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's the weirdest one to me that it was hard to tell from the quotes if they had talked to the team earlier in the stage about not letting the gap get so big. But to me, that was the fatal error. Oh, the fault, the fault is not on, the fault is not on, on, on their Toro. It's on, it's both, it's on both EF and on UAE. I mean, most, mostly on UAE because they were in the lead.

but if Carapas wanted to win, he also had to make sure that Van Arnard didn't make it over the top or maybe Carapas thought that he could go with Simon Yates and then Van Arth would obviously be an ally but I think there's a lot of different. I mean it seems long ago but I think the most important mistake was probably that they underestimated Simon Yates. end of story, you know, because until that point, Simon Yates had not been able to put the hurt on any of those riders. It was the contrary. Yeah, we've litigated this over and over again. I do think with this information, Carap, you actually maybe vindicates Carapaz because Carapaz maybe thought, well, Del Toro certainly knows Van Arts up the road, so he can't let Simon Yates get

up the road. He's going to work with me. And then he was confused and mad why Del Toro. wasn't working with him, but now we know that Del Toro didn't know the situation. So maybe that's why he didn't work with him. It didn't go the way Carapest-out. We go half-jokingly, did UA not consider the fact that Wilde Fennart would sit up and wait for a teammate? No, no. Not for the stage win.

Once you see that Von Arct is in there, you know the plan. You know, that's that, that was a guarantee that he would, you know, do everything he could to make it over the climb and then help Simon Yates, whether it was to drag it. him up the road or to make him come back even, you know, I mean, because he was, they didn't know. I mean, maybe Simon Yates back there was going to get dropped and Barnard needed to be there to try to limit the gap to, you know, save the podium. Yeah. Like, why is he waiting?

What is he doing? Before we get to the questions, I swear we talked about this before, so I don't want to retread it, but Little Liddle, the company, announced they had purchased the majority share in the Little TREC team. and they're moving the license to Germany. It's becoming a German team. Yeah. Yeah.

They were already moving all the operations and the service course to Germany. But now, yeah, now they've become the majority owner. So I think this is, you know, it's obviously the proof that this is long term. And Lidl has big ambitions and are ready to invest a lot of money. So, yeah, I think it's, I think it's great. You know, we need teams and companies who can, you know, engage in the battle with UAE and FISMA. I mean, I'd probably put little and Visma now on the same level, no, maybe even little a bit ahead of FISMA. Yeah, at least financially. Visma is still pretty well run.

I would, you would, one way to spin this would say, would be, wow, what a blow to US cycling. We lost a team. Do you know how many Americans are on that team, though? One. One, Ed Simmons. Captain America. Quinn Simmons, yeah. Yeah.

This is a trend, though. Have you, I'm sure you've noticed this. You know, it used to always have a pain agent and, you know, like, Johan Bernille owns the team or Vincent Lavanoe and they have a sponsor or corporate partner. Now these companies are buying the teams themselves. Like Red Bull bought the team. DeCathlon, EF, Little. Liddle, like they're all buying the teams and bringing them in house.

Like, what do you make of that trend? Listen, I think it's, it's good and bad. I mean, on the, you know, short term, it obviously shows the interest and the commitment of these sponsors with with big resources. You know, I mean, like, if Deccatloan, for example, buys the team, if Red Bull buys the team, if Lidl buys the team, they're not in here for the short. you know, otherwise they would, otherwise if it's a paying agent independent, then you basically always are in search of new sponsorship.

Yeah. With these big companies, I think the advantage is that for the continuity of the team is that big companies have many good relationships with other big companies that they're doing business with and they can attract more sponsorship money. You know, they're fishing in different pools, right? Yeah. of a different level. So I think it's, I think it's good on one hand, on the other hand.

I, you know, I'm also, but anyway, you know, cycling has proven now for, you know, the last 20, 30 years that this model is, is not possible. I would not, I mean, ideally, you would have a team, which is, for example, you just said, for example, team lavenu, you know, like, okay, team whatever, you give it a name, like, you know, the rockets, you know, the rockets and then presented by sponsors. And in that way, you create an identity which can sustain the time. It's always the same. And then the sponsors are satellites around it that come and go, but the identity always stays the same.

Now, you know, if we look to the next five to 10 years, I think with these companies, these companies are not going to change. It's going to be decathlon. It's going to be little. you know, it's going to be, who's the other one? Who bought the team? Red Bull, you know? Red Bull. So, yeah.

No, I think it's good because we have come to a point, Spencer, where the model of, you know, a paying agent, an independent paying agent managed by the manager of the team, the budgets have become too big, that involves big operations, big companies. And I think it's just better that it's better for the structure of the sport, I think. It's run more than as a company rather than the old fashioned traditional family style cycling team. Yeah. And you saw the same thing happen in Formula One. I mean, what you're talking about?

They have continuity of naming. Ferrari is going to be Ferrari. Ferrari as sponsors, they're not going to be called HP computers. They're Ferrari. They used to have mom and pop teams, Williams Racing. was a mom and pop team just gets harder once the sponsors get the numbers get bigger what do you think of germany having two world tour teams red bull i know red bull's an austrian company but it's registered in bavaria and lido think and then think about it france has two world tour teams next

year with decathlon grupama fdjia italy has zero spain has one it's been a few it's been a few years that spain has no italy has none yeah They kind of spiritually have one with UAE, but it's not technically registered there. But it does show you this shift and the shift in power of professional cycling. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's become also less and less European, you know. I mean, if you see all these, I mean, you have UAE, you have Bahrain, you have Alula, you have Astana.

You know, there's a lot of non-European entities and countries. you know, if you look at Bahrain, UAE, Alula, this is Saudi Arabia, Astana, there's four countries. Maybe I'm missing another one. I don't know. I think that's, yeah, we don't need to get into the specifics of Norwegian state-sponsored capitalism. You know, X's kind of. I mean, it's not Norway, you know, it's a company. But the state does take ownership stakes and companies.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It is becoming more state sponsored. I've always thought Germany was a sleeping giant in terms of. It's a huge country in Europe. You know, they've now they have, I mean, they have podium in the tour again with Lipowitz. Yeah. You know, so.

Yeah, I think it makes sense, you know. We had, we had, I mean, back in the days, we had several, and we had Team Mobile, we had Geryl Steiner, Mill Ram, Mill Ram. Team Coast. Remember that? Coast, okay, Coast, yeah. That was a short-lived. Great jerseys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaking of, I mean, you know, another thing I wanted to touch on, I mean, it's been, and I noted this down here, initially, Jake, Laula, was not. on the list of the teams that had successfully entered their World Tour application. I don't know if you saw that news. There was something. Second year in a row, this is happening. Bank guarantee. Bank guarantee was missing.

I've read in the meantime reports that it's been solved. By being solved, I'm going to guess it's basically Gary Ryan, who has come up with another check. You know, I'm my estimation, you know, is that, I mean, thank God for Gary Ryan, that this team exists and survives. You know, they've, they've been there since 2012, Spencer. So it's 13 years. You know, there's been different. I mean, now with Alula, they have an external bigger sponsor. Alula is very tourist.

I mean, the most touristic region in Saudi Arabia. but it remains the Australian team right and so if you remember it started by with Greenwich in 2012 and then they had a number of other sponsors you know but it's basic I mean they had orica for a while which was an external external sponsor but all the other sponsors Jaco owned it's a camping car business like a owned by Jerry Ryan yeah Mitchelton the winery owned by Jerry Ryan, bike exchange, company owned by Jerry Ryan. I mean, Jerry Ryan over the years has put to my estimation, 150 million euros, I'm going to guess, because that's probably euros. If it's Australian dollars, it's half.

150 million in this team. 150 million. I mean, that's quite a lot for to be a passionate of cycling. It is a lot of money. And I think at some point, you know, Gary Ryan is going to say, hey, no, this has been, I mean, I love cycling. But hey, guys, come on. We need to find somebody else here to pay the bills, you know. It's a bit too much.

So I think that this is becoming an issue. So unless, I mean, listen, Alula may take over or they may, they may probably step in bigger. but this is not sustainable. This cannot go on for another two or three years in this way. I think Gary Ryan is going to get tired of it. Well, we shouldn't. He's a very wealthy man. He'd be for most people, like, wealthier than you could possibly imagine.

I don't think he's a billionaire. So that's like real. I think he is. I think he is. But otherwise, you can. Yeah. Otherwise you can. But anyways.

That's a real chunk of money. The thing is, the thing is, Spencer also, I mean, if you look, 150 million and the team, they're in the lower rankings for a number of years now. It's not like they are successful. I mean, they do win races. They won stages in Jero and Tour and Welta and, you know, but it's not like, it's not the team that if you ask a young talent, upcoming cyclist, make a wish list of the five teams you want to go to, if you're not Australian, that team's not going to be in the top five of your wishes. Maybe even if you're Australian.

And when you poke around the paddock, as it's say, an F1 at cycling events, it is immediately, you could point to the team that has the smallest budget, the smallest budget in the world tour. And it's probably J-Co-a-Lulu. Like, the bus is smaller. It's a different model bus. I think it was intermarship. I think it was intermarshay.

Oh, yeah. I didn't even, they also look a little rag-ta. second person. But the Jaco bus, it's smaller. It has see through the tent. It doesn't quite work on the windows. You can see everybody getting changed. Those are details. But it, to me, you can immediately tell like, ooh, this is not a supercharged operation here. This is they're running on a shoestring, even though they've spent 150 million euros over 12 years or whatever. Yeah. Do you think Alula would take it over? I don't know, man. I mean, I mean, listen, I don't know what the deal is there, what the agreement is.

They, listen, they can if they want. We can't be a slam dunk, actually, for them. Yeah. A small amount of money to. Yeah, but it's not successful enough. You know, I mean, it's not successful. But UAE was not a successful team. Yeah, that's true.

They were lamprey. Yeah. They were not good for the first few years of UAE. Yeah. For sure. So you got to have the vision. Well, before we take off, we've got a little long. We do have a really good question in the chat, and I want to get your thought on this.

So something, I hope this person's stats are right. I'm going to trust you. Something different. To the difference. A question about Matthew Vanderpul, the monument man, 19 starts and monuments, 19 finishes. Right there, that's pretty good. 18 top 10 finishes, one finish outside the top 10, including four of the, he's won four of the five monuments. I think that's right.

Is that right? Which one wouldn't he have won? He's one. with An San Remo, he's one party to be flangers. But not the Asian Lombardy. Not Lilliers, not Lombardy. I was thinking actually, he's probably

he's probably never going to win Liesh. He almost won it. He missed his chance. Do you remember this? No, he didn't almost. No, he was mowing them down. No, he almost cut them. He came back, but he got dropped to me. But do you know what he did the day

before that race? Fifty-five kilometers solo breakaway in a race. Benelux Stewart or no or something. Yeah. Imagine he doesn't do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's one race, one race that, for example, his father, Audrey, will be able to say,

hey, you know what? You're so good, but you never won the at Bastogneesh. I did. Probably. It's probably the time has passed on that. It's too, the race is too hard now. These results are incredible. Unparalleled, question mark.

Has there ever been a better one-day racer? I would say, is. Is he even the best one-day racer of his time? I mean, I mean, Bogotcha, yeah, but yeah.

Because Pegasur's 10 monument wins. Vanderpola's eight. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, right now, Bogacha is better, but,

you know, van der Poult is just a master in, in his specialty. Yeah, I mean, if it was not, if it were not for Pagachar, but,

you know, Pagach is just the best everywhere. I would say if he was, he was, he was, my opinion, you know, without the crash in Roubaix, Mathieu Vanderpull would have won, but they would have come together in the velodrome and Pogacha crashed. But, you know, I don't know if he would have been able to drop him.

No, but imagine Vanderpull doesn't show up for whatever reason. Pagosha wins that in his first attempt. I would say if we really want to critically look at this and I've been looking at it for like the last 20 minutes glancing at it, But Ghatcher has finished outside the top 10 twice. So you really want to nitpick in the monuments. In the monuments. Okay, well. 18th in his first of the age, 12th in his first San Remo.

That's it. That's the only time he's finished outside the top 10. That's incredible. That's crazy. And listen, these two guys are, you know, the emperors of the monuments. You know, there's nobody else. You can say whatever else, you know, like you can say Philipson or, you know, who else is there?

Remko would be the only other one. Well, Remko won the edge. Yeah, he's the only other guy besides Philipson to win in the last few years. And in Mohorich. Mahorich, that was what was three years ago. 2023, right? Yeah, yeah. Subset to this question from me,

is Vanderpull the best cobbled rider of all time? I'm going to say yes. Because if you look at Flanners. I still have those images in my mind, you know, him. Not this season, the season before when he flew away on, you can literally say fly away on the cobbles there. That was crazy. I've never seen something like this. I've never seen somebody ride cobbles so fast than Mathieu.

I think he's the best cobbled rider ever. So he's only been racing the cobbels. I hope Roger DeVlaming doesn't listen to me. I know. I was thinking of that guy. Come after us. Yeah. Roger DeVlaming was quite something, but no.

I do. I think I did an analytic layover of this. And I think it's not even close because Vanderpels only been racing cobbles for six years. These are his results in Flanders and Rubei. First, this is Flanders. First, second, first, second, first, third. Rubet. Third, ninth, first, first, first.

If you took the first six years of anyone's cobbled career, they're not even going to come close to that. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. So he's very, he's very good. I think he's the best rider on cobbles ever. Yeah. I would agree.

I think it sounds provocative at first, but I think it's not as provocative as you think when you look into it. Johan, this is, I'm going to save the rest of our. that we don't have any other live questions. I'm going to save the ones people have emailed in for next weekend. I think someone asked me this maybe on Instagram. I wanted to get your thoughts on it. Has the UCI messed up the World Championship calendar? Essentially have they made, I'm trying to think on the fly really quick.

So we have Zurich, Kigali, Quebec, Ote Savoy. So basically, what is that, four straight, Pagachar, to at least climber. Climber-focused world championships. Montreal, Montreal maybe is accessible. I mean, it's not a pure climber race. You know, the problem,

the UCI and everybody in cycling has is that Pogacar can just adapt to any course as soon as it's a bit, a bit uphill, you know. But typically Montreal, you know, you would say back in the days, you would say, for example, a guy like Greg von Arvarmarvart, for example, would be a guy that you can say, or he could win there. You could say, without the guy like Pogacar, you could say Michael Matthews can do a race like this, but with Pogacar, it's just, yeah, it's just, you know, it's a

different game. It's not, it's not the course, it's the rider who's just able to win everywhere and can make the race so hard, even if the course is not very hard. I think Montreal is, I would have to look at the numbers. It's a lot of climbing, but do you think go back to Bergen in our minds? Does Pagotcha just blow that course up and win? That's different. That's different.

We don't see as many. I thought it was a decent question because it, yeah, they maybe have not. I guess Zurich was supposed to be accessible because Vanderpull was there. It was. You know, I mean, if you look, for example, also if you look in the lower category, look, look in the under 23 race, you know, look at the podium. It's a big guy. I mean, this guy, what's the guy? One, he's on, he's on Visma now, the German guy.

U-23 or junior? Was he junior? Was he junior? I don't know. Anyway, I think the junior podium was all super big. I mean, was big guys. Berens, Nicholas Berens. I think he was under 23.

Hold on a second. Nicholas Barron's. He won. And, yeah, U-23. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. He's a big guy.

80 kilos. He's a big guy. Yeah. Well, okay, so this is right. I mean, Vanderpul was third. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. That was a good change.

And then remember who was second? Ben O'Connor. Ben O'Connor actually is a good mix of riders there. That shows you it's a good course. Andrew emailed this end. And I have to ask you. I've been asking everyone in my life this question. In your opinion, who is the best American cyclist right now?

just to throw names out there you'd have like brandy magnulty quin simmons matthew jorgensen matthew rickettello isac del toru yeah that's the answer right there actually you know the super hot take answer is is uh christopher blevins just won the world cup yeah okay yeah now i think i think you know from uh from uh if you look at uh I'm going to say Quinn Simmons, man. He's, you know, he's strong, he's visible. He's, you know, he's, he's into the front stages for the win. He's, you know, he's in the world championships in the front.

He's, you know, he's a bit everywhere. And he's a very complete rider. And he's American champion. So I'll say right now, Quinn Simmons is, you know, the best writer in the United States of America. that's what I was thinking. I mean, to get forth in Lombard the other way he did. Yeah. Like that's, yeah, that's, just shows you that ceiling is so high.

Matthew Ricotelo, about fifth in the Vuelta, that's also quite, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's, you know, now. He's like, you know, let's not forget, man, like three years ago, an American won the Vuelta. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're not talking about him anymore. No. No. That is kind of crazy to think about.

Well, yeah, that was kind of, I mean, it's not like he was a team leader going into the race. He won the VALTA, but it wasn't expected. And winning a grand tour is, you know, something that is not within reach of. many riders and Sepkuz won it. But if you ask today, who's the best, you know, writer in the United States, it's not Seppkus. Would he have been the best rider in the United States or considered so when he won the Valta?

Now I'm trying to remember what the WALTA. I mean, he was, I mean, listen, he was, he won the Vuelta, you know, definitely, okay, he was not the team leader, got in that breakaway, but, you know, defended his lead. And then in the Giro and in the tour, he was crucial to the win to the victory of their team leaders in the most difficult stages. So, yeah, I think he was back then. So he did have the most UCI points of any American, sorry, United States of American that year. Do you know who was second? I would never have guessed this.

Then? Yeah, this is in 2023. Huh. Nielsen Palace. Oh, wow. 24th in the world. The UCI points that year. Wow.

Interesting. Well, thanks, Johan. Do you have anything else before you take off? That's it. I'll talk. We'll be back next week. All right. Thank you.

Okay, thanks.