THEMOVE - Vismas Eur6m Loss Remcos Flanders Rumors Bad Bikes Themove

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down Visma's recently released financial report that highlights their somewhat surprising massive budget and significant year-end loss, before discussing the rumors that Remco Evenepoel might tackle the Tour of Flanders in 2026 and taking a few listener questions from the live Members' chat. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team NordVPN: Get your Exclusive NordVPN deal here → https://nordvpn.com/themove It's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee! Huel: Huel makes healthy eating simple. They also just launched into Target stores nationwide! Try both products today with FIFTEEN PERCENT off your purchase for New Customers with our exclusive code THEMOVE at https://www.huel.com/THEMOVE. Bubs Naturals: Live Better Longer! For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% OFF at BUBS Naturals by using code WEDU at checkout. Just head to https://www.bubsnaturals.com and use code WEDU and you're all set. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. PLEASE support our show and tell them our show sent you. Quince: Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to https://quince.com/themove for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. Mint Mobile: This year, skip breaking a sweat AND breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at https://mintmobile.com/themove. Upfront payment of $45 required (equivalent to $15/mo.) Limited-time new customer offer for the first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35GB on Unlimited plan. Taxes & fees extra. See MINT MOBILE for details.

Everybody, welcome back to The Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johann Bernille. We are going over a few little news items during this quiet holiday week, at least in the States, and then we'll get into questions from listeners. But first, Johan, before we do that, let's hear from today's partner, and then we'll be right back. Everybody, today's episode is brought to you by NordVPN, which is quickly becoming a must-have for me to keep up with my cycling and other sports as I travel around the globe.

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So if you want to try NordVPN, you can do it right now with no risk with our exclusive offer. Go to NordVPN.com slash the move to try it out risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. If you know, like it, no problem. If you're going to love it, though, so you're going to keep it. That's NordvPN.com slash the move. All right, Johan, before we get into the questions, something came across my desk. And this is right after we recorded last week.

But it was a great. the money in sports substack. I actually don't know where they got this information. Perhaps Visma has to publish this because they're based in the Netherlands and maybe they have to publish all companies have to publish their reports. But this is a breakdown of Visma Lisa Bikes finances, which is pretty interesting because we don't normally see these. The top line numbers are that Vizma Lisa bike, the corporate holding aspect of it gets a little confusing because yellow B, C, Yellow B cycling was the holding company that owned it until 2023. If you remember, there was all that uncertainty going on at the time.

We didn't know if the team's going to continue. It sold for $8 million. That's probably not an all-cash deal. And the new owners are Richard Pluga and Robert Vanderwollen. Richard Pluga, you'll know he was the owner of Yellow B cycling. So he essentially sold it to himself and a business partner. Robert VanderWallin, who is a Dutch billionaire. The new owner is Yellow B-Cycling holding BV.

So basically the same company. But the important thing is, in 2024, they're operating revenue. So basically the budget of the team was 52 million euros with a loss of 6.1 million euros. You kind of wonder, how could a cycling team have a loss? Because there's usually no funds to dip into. The implication being here is that Robert Vandawallin, the business partner, covered those losses. But when you looked at this, when you heard about this, like, do you, is it's, it's 52 million. I thought that was a pretty big budget because the biggest budget in the sport is probably

UAE who would roughly be around 60 million euros. But this is for someone that ran a team relatively recently, would you say this is quite high? Is this quite a bit higher than you guys were working with? It's a lot higher than expected. I didn't think that Visma was on that number. Yeah, I think it's safe to say UAE is the highest. We don't know. It's probably unlimited. Then we had you know if that's still the case we don't know but in aos was also reportedly 50 million i mean if that's 50 million pounds that's uh that's that's huge um yeah i was i was i was uh was under the impression that this mo was quite a bit lower um now the what was it five million loss six point one million i believe five million euros of that were cash and one was depreciation

I think from my quick glance at this. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously a substantial amount, but I'm not going to say I'm surprised. I said already in former podcast, you know, that it's extremely difficult to make money with a cycling team. I read somewhere actually one of the only cycling teams that made money in the last two years or the last year was actually Suddaq Quickstep. But of course, that has a lot to do with the selling.

of Ramco Avena pool. Yep. But usually, you know, a cycling team, it's, but money comes in, money goes out. You know, that's it. Then unless, unless you're a manager and, you know, a long time ago, like 20 years ago, a manager, a Dutch manager once told me, he said, you know, this is what you need to do to make sure you make money. The first line in your budget is 10% profit.

and that's there. You know, and that's, that's just, that's, you can't move that. But of course, you know, in this, in this sport and it's so competitive, you can't really stick to that because, you know, you want always to have access to better riders, you know, you're in a bidding war. You want your, your cyclists to have the best equipment, the best hotels, the best infrastructure for training camps. It's as far as I know, in my experience.

We've always been struggling to make the budget work. There's been years we had losses. But there's never been years where we had a big profit, maybe, I don't know, maybe 1%, maximum. And what happens to the profit, like that 10% line item? Is that just go into the pocket of the? No, I mean, it depends. It depends how the, it depends how the team is run if it's a company, which is owned by back in the days,

there was usually the general manager who had their own company and that was the paying agent. So basically that general manager then could dispose of that money. I think the most logical thing is it goes back into the budget as a reserve for future uncertainties. But it's, you know, from experience I'm going to tell you is it's very rare that there's a reserve for the next years. So, yeah, when five million, it's a lot. We would need to look really if those five million is a real loss or if it's, I mean, I don't know. I haven't looked at the report in detail.

In this case, I would say probably, you know, Richard Plug is probably in a, and I'm not going to say comfortable, but, you know, an okay situation. If you have a backer like Robert von der Wallam, who will probably either, you know, come up with the difference to close that gap or I don't know if it's going to be compensated if maybe von der Wallen gets more shares in the company in exchange for what he pays now extra. I don't know. Now, then the question is having more shares in the company. Is it really useful if the company never makes money?

You know, I mean, ultimately, of course, the goal is that you're going to come across a deal where there's going to be more revenue and you can make money. Now, then the question is, okay, if there's more revenue, most likely anybody who runs a cycling team and wants to be competitive, they're going to win to spend that extra revenue on better riders. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's a vicious circle. I've heard it described as prune juice because what happens when you drink prune juice

and just goes right out the other end. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. Yeah. What comes in, goes out for sure. So you mentioned Sadal Quick Steps profit. They made $2.64 million euros in profit in 2024. And they probably made more this year.

The reason that's happening is because they're selling riders and probably underspending. It's not a bad idea. I mean, George Hincappy, I never fact-checked this, but he said that in the years before they signed Prima's Roglitz back then Bora was underspending their budget to save up money to pay for Primos Rodwich. So I guess that does happen where teams, you know, and Cudall Quicks up, that's a smart team, like run by smart people. They also have a billionaire backer, but, you know, maybe they were told like, I'm not going to plug these holes anymore. So if you want to save up money for something, do we know that maybe Visma has been saving up for this loss? You know, maybe this was a year that they just lost money, but it could be

planned losses. Yeah. If you're wondering, well, I mean, you also can see, I mean, obviously we're talking about numbers of 2024. If you look at their 2025, they did not spend a whole lot of money on new signings. No. You know, there's no spectacular super high salary rider, which will join Visma. And there are some expensive riders who have left. So, you know, they're obviously working to close that gap. And if you're asking, what are they spending all this money on? Most of it is employees. So, yeah. I was really, really surprised to see. I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I have to know. Did I see somewhere 178 staff? Yeah.

178 staff. We should mention, like I remember at one point, I think it's different now, but Team Sky had something like three people on staff because the law in the UK at the time allowed them to classify people as independent contractors. Some teams don't. Like if you're a French team, everyone wants a full term employee. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, listen, 178. It's a lot.

But also, I mean, if you look at their infrastructure, I don't know if you've seen. I mean, it's this been published, published many times, you know, their base, their headquarters, their service course. It is unbelievable. Yeah. It is probably one of the best, one of the most beautiful, one of the best organized infrastructures that they have. They have. So it obviously takes a lot of people to run that. And when you're at the race, the first thing you notice, and I don't think this is allowed anymore, is they just have way more vans than other teams.

So they might have seven, eight vans, which is full of staff members who drive out on the course and handoff feeds throughout the race. They also, I mean, they have a lot of interesting positions. Other teams don't have. They focus a lot on altitude camps. I remember I interviewed Richard Plugo once and he told me really stuck with me. He's like, the key to running a cycling team is avoiding bad sign. It sounds simple. Avoid signing bad expensive riders because a bad expensive rider is equal.

to it could be 20 or 30 staff members who can add a lot to your team. It could be multiple altitude camps. So they spend a lot of money on the small stuff. I don't know where these numbers are coming from, but pretty interesting just to give you a sense of where Vizma stands. Let's just say, UAE 60 million is probably unlimited, as you say, whatever they need. Quick step, just for reference, they have a budget of, this is in 2024, 38 million euros, decathlon, 31 million euros, Grupama 24, UnoX 23, Mobistar, 21. CoFIT is 20, Lotto, 17 million. And the revenue growth, so revenue growth would be budget growth, between 24 and 23,

DeCathon increased by 32%. UnoX increased by 30%, which has shown on the road, Quick Step 13, Grupama 10, COVID is 9, lotto 4, Mobestar, a 9% decrease in budget, which is pretty interesting. I guess is that just the retirement of Alejandro Valverde? Is that what she was making? Yeah, probably. Probably.

Probably, yeah. And so I'm surprised to see, do you say 38 million for Sudolk, quickstep? 38 million for Sidot Quickstep, but this would have been 2024 when Rencoe Evanapult was on the team. I don't think so. You don't think so? No, no. No.

I am almost 100% sure that that's not possible. So I don't know where the numbers come from. I'll check. I'll try to find out for the next podcast if that's correct. But in my opinion, that's not correct. We should say, I believe this is counting. Like I'm looking at the pie chart for Visma. I believe they count the market rate of the bikes they receive.

So if Quickstuffs getting 200 specialized bikes, that could be like. They have a women's team. They have a development team. They have a junior team. Yeah. So, so yeah, maybe. I don't know. It could be $45 million right there for 200 specialized bikes.

I guess this shows you the pressure to chase UAE. I was a little, I only knew this because of you. You told me a few years ago that Vizma had a benefactor who was sharing the cost with the team. I didn't think that was widely known. And then even more interestingly about the team that Richard Pluga owns it because he was the team's press officer. He was a publishing executive who then became a cycling commentator and then was the team's press officer. The team folded, Rabobank left the team. He kind of picked up the pieces and got, he basically bought the team for nothing, right?

Yeah. I think I remember when it was Blanco cycling team. So basically what happened was Rabobank had decided that we'd leave the sport. They still had a year contract, but they didn't want their name. to be anymore on the jersey. So they paid the team what was promised, but they called it Blanco, white, the white team, right? Yeah. And then I think in that, in that moment, I do remember there was a interim general manager who was originally one of the directors of Rabobank, the company. I think his name was, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, it's Henry von der Ate, Henry van der Ate.

I do remember. And then he told me that, you know, they were changing. And when it was Blanco, all of a sudden, they got a smaller sponsor. I mean, became the title sponsor, but because they didn't really need the money, Belkin came in. Yeah, I remember this. The mobile phone accessories and batteries and cables and stuff. So they came in, I don't know, they paid two, three million or something, but they became the title sponsor of the team.

And that's, I think, when Henry van der Ate left and went back to the bank, Richard Plaga came in and he was the communications manager. And I think he bought the license then to continue with the team. And then, you know, from their own, they were basically trying to find sponsors. And ultimately, that's the consequences many years later. is my Lisa bike. It does show, I mean, great, great for Richard Pluga, impressive timing there. But it does show you that you almost need a benefactor, a very wealthy benefactor to compete

in modern cycling. I mean, there's actually very, if you think about it, very few teams, how many teams are independently owned. Like, the Cathlon's now owned by DeCathlon, Little Trex owned by Little, EF is owned by EF, Enios is owned by Enios. Even Movisstar has a benefactor now. So does Suddox up? So does Visma.

UAE is state-owned. Bob Rain is state-owned, I believe. No, UAE is not state-owned. It's not. It's owned by a person who is a Philly. No, no, UAE is owned by the company of Maudotianity, Swiss company. Okay. All right.

So it's a little engine it could that team. Yeah, they have to go out. They have to find sponsors. I did not know that that. Yeah, Netti still owns that team. Incredible. And then also there was at the end of this article, there was the ASOs. it was their 2024 financial review.

Do you know how much profit ASO made in 2024? Usually, usually it's around 100 million. Yeah. Record profits, 111 million in 2024. They don't tell you. You don't know how much of that's the Tour de France, but their total sales worth 377 million. So that's an incredible profit margin.

Very good for ASO. And now we see why they're so hesitant to do anything, right? I mean, you know, I mean, listen, And as long as they, there is, you know, they would never get around the table unless they're really forced and they have no other choice. If it's about revenue sharing, it's a no for ISO. I see, I mean, back in the days, I've been in meetings, you know, was everything, okay, let's talk, this and that. As soon as you start sharing the TV rights, it's game over. The meeting is finished.

You know, and listen, until now, they've been getting away with it. It makes no sense because, you know, without writers and teams who are the actors, the main actors of, you know, I mean, if you have a big, you know, blockbuster Hollywood movie, the actors are the main characters, right? and the ones who get, you know, very, very big fees, should be the same in cycling. It's the same in almost every other sport, except a few. Yeah, but as I said on the move during the tour, it's like they're not, the other sports do it because there's competition. And someone, I was talking to someone on the other night who was trying to buy ASO at one point.

And they brought up, I thought it was a very good point, that ASO is no weakness because they have no debt. You talked with somebody who was trying to buy ESO? Yeah. Well, in the past, this is an anonymous person. But they mentioned that like the reason you can wedge in to professional sports a lot of the times is because the organizations take on debt and need cash to service that debt. And ASO has no debt. So they have no need to bring cash on. They're just happily harvesting a 33% profit margin on their business. That's incredible. They should continue to do that. Congratulations to the family. You have a great business with no with no serious competition. There is no competition. There is no competition. I mean, you know, like no matter what else you try to create, the Tour de France is just, you know, it's the, it's the prestige event. You know, it's a lot of people say, I mean, even Pauline Pogacchar is like, he's like hesitant, you know, like to the France and the world championships. He puts that like equally.

Yep. It's not equal. It's not. You know, it's, if you're a world champion one year and you win the Tour de France one year, it's not. it's not even close. I mean, I think he's only putting it equally because he can just pencil in. Yeah. Okay.

For him, probably. It doesn't really, yeah, I mean, it doesn't really matter not much. Well, let's take a quick break and then I'm going to ask you about something else. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Huell. My mornings have been incredibly busy this week, even without school drop-offs due to the Thanksgiving holiday. Perhaps they're even more busy because those kids are home from school. And I am missing breakfast at times. but this is not a problem because I've been reaching for Hewels Black Edition,

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to charity, starting with the Glenn Doherty Memorial Foundation. So live better longer. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting 20% off Bubbs at Bubbs Natural, using code we do it. Check out. Just head to B UBS naturals.com and use code we do. And you're all set. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. That's bubs naturals.com and use code we do. All right. We're back, Johan. So just before we get into our questions, I don't, I think we called this out in the last episode, but I just want to make sure we do say this. So in essence, cycling, the rebranded Rebord, Israel Premier Tech team is right. Scott bikes. They're no longer riding Factor bikes. So they'll be writing Scott bikes. They've been officially announced already, Spencer. You know, I saw it was Daniel Benson reported it,

but I don't believe it was officially announced. But I heard from, I heard from people who would know that the deal has been signed. So we're breaking that news if it's not already been broken. But it will be announced on December 2nd that they, the deal's done. And that Scott got very favorable terms on that deal, which, and I get this, so Scott was with Q36.5. They left Q36.5 because the owner of Q36.35, the company and the team also owns Pinerrello. Obviously, they would want to be on the same bike as the owner of the team owns. And then Scott was left looking for a partner, correct? Correct. Yeah. I think Pinerrello even becomes the title sponsor. I think the naming of the team is going to be Pinarello Q-36.5. So yeah, I mean, at this point, I mean, that point

it's, you know, a brand like Scott to get into, to find another partner. It's not easy. So for sure, for them, it's it's it's a present, you know, like all of a sudden you get this situation that there's there is a world tour team who is without a bike sponsor. Now, it's my understanding that there must have been a fallout between Israel Premier Tech, now NSN. You know, it's still to be seen if Sylvan Adams is behind the curtain still, you know, pulling the strings. I'm suspecting that will be the case, especially because he's still paying for the team. So if you pay, you decide.

And so, yeah, I mean, I mean, factor still had a deal with the team, but apparently they wanted to renegotiate or something. And Adam said, okay, no way. I don't know. I mean, it's, I don't know what the amount of the sponsoring is, but let's say, let's say it's two million or something. Well, in Adams' pockets are deep enough. They're okay, you know what? Screw you factor.

You know, you've not stood behind us with when it's really, when it's really necessary. I'll just pay another $2 million from my pocket and we'll ride with, you know. And maybe maybe Sylvan Adams himself, the incredible cyclist he is in his, you know, mid or late 60s prefers to ride on a scop and on a factor. That may be the deciding factor. I don't know. It could be. Could they sue factor since they're in the middle of their deal?

I mean, I don't know. I don't have the details. It is my understanding that there was a contract in place, probably. overpaid and now with the whole, I mean, factor probably also wants to take advantage of the fact that the team was, you know, in negative news and they wanted to probably pay less money and, you know, wanted to renegotiate and Adam said, okay, we're not really negotiating. You know, we're going somewhere else and then he'll probably try to recuperate the money

through the courts. But, you know, that's first of all not sure. That's going to happen and it could take a long time. Well, it's great for Scott. I mean, you walk right into a World Tour sponsorship deal. I mean, that and the terms they are on are incredible. So congratulations to Scott. It's a good bike. It's a good for the team.

Yeah. I think it's one of my favorite bikes in the World Tour. So, well, it's my favorite bike in the World Tour because Ventum's not in the World Tour, but we think we like Scott over here. Are there still? Bad bikes, Spencer. It's a great question. That could be its own episode, couldn't it?

You know, okay, obviously, you know, it's, I mean, yeah, but, you know, if you look at, if you look at a bike brand, Spencer, it's, the bike brand is the frame. You know, so we have components, which are, you know, you can get the best of the best on any bike. You can have either Shimano or SRAM or Compono. You know, and then the wheels, you can have the best wheels. And the, the bike brand is a frame. It's two triangles that, you know, hold the components together. It's okay, you can say stiffness, geometry, and aerodynamics. Those are the three qualities weight that can differentiate a bike.

Well, I heard that Look was riding a bike that was a pound heavier than the competition. Or co-fit is when they were on Look. That's significant. And as you found out of the tour, it's like, well, weight's not always a big deal if you're arrow. But then the problem with that specific bike is I don't think it was very arrow and it was heavy. Yeah.

But so let's let's say, for example, let's just compare the bikes that the top riders are riding. So you have Pogacar is riding in Colnago. You have Jonas who's riding in Cervallo. You have Remko who's riding specialized. Specialized, yeah. Del Toro is riding Colnago. Who else can be put in there? Van Arte.

Van der Poole is riding Canyon. I don't think there's any of these bikes that are going to make you. win or lose. You could argue, Colnago, four or five years ago, maybe. Maybe we're on the lower end of,

you know, but they've stepped up and they're, they're up there now with the best. So, and if you, once in your that range of quality, I don't think there's that much difference. I mean,

forgot to say, Trek also, for example, but, nah, I don't think, I don't think that's, That's a factor now to win or lose.

Yeah, I did feel like there was a time where Vizma was at a distinct advantage over U.A. But, man, there was times at the end of last year where especially the way he was riding so much off the front that you're thinking, is Pagaccia have a significant advantage because he's essentially riding a time trial bike. Yeah, so is Zisma. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which one's faster? They got to get our hands on these things and test them.

the thing I noticed that Ruler Live is you really noticed the elimination of the 3-1 rule, that ratio, because now the thing is like Ridley looks total. I used to ride. I was on a team that was sponsored by Ridley, and it looks like a different bike now. Like with these head tubes are so deep, and that probably does help at a certain point. If you're on a team that's not on that cutting edge, maybe you are less arrow. But let's take another quick, actually, I'm going to ask you this, and then we'll go to a break. So Remko Evan before going back to Remko, we can't stay away from this guy.

I was reading the Belgian media this morning, Johan, and I saw on HLN, which I won't try to say that what that actually stands for. It lost the news. Perfect. The last, exactly. The latest news. Well, it was the latest news because they say inside of Remko's mind is the thought to race tour Flanders in 2026. This would probably mean no Gere d'etalia, right? Yeah.

I mean, you know, you can do the Tour of Flanders and the Gero. That's not a problem. And then what do you do another? He would definitely have some sort of classic program leading up to the Tour of Flanders. And then I guess he would have to reset for the Gero. Yeah. Yeah. If he does, if he, I, it's difficult for me to see Remko take a pass on Fleshwallon and he has

Bastogne Liesch, which is closer to the Giro already. Yeah, I read that too, Spencer. I'm absolutely not a fan of this idea. You know, Tour of Flanders is, I mean, Remko's not Polacchar, you know, Tour Flanders is such a special race. Yeah, I don't see it. I don't see it as a benefit. There's a lot of risks involved.

Already, you know, by definition, Ramco is not the best in positioning. And if there's one race where positioning, position is key. And even if you live in the area, but you've never raised it, forget about it. You know, it's, it is, it is you can live there. I lived on the bottom of the Bosberg. I've done the two of Flanders once, my first year profession. I said, okay, I'm not coming back to this crazy race again. And I never did it again. I don't know what the benefit would be for Renco actually. Of course, the fans will love it in Belgium, but I don't see him in a position.

to be a factor in the race. And if that's not the case, then why would you do it? It's just unnecessary risks. I kind of like as a fan. I kind of like it. You bring a very good points. It does take a lot of skill. It's probably the hardest race from a skill perspective.

Oh, yeah. Because you have to be on, you have to know where you're going the whole time. But I don't know. Could he get away? Get away early. and he's so arrow, he stays away and wins. As I say that the last two climbs are so slow that he would have to have,

it's hard to imagine him staying in front of those guys. But I don't know, I kind of, I would like to see it. He probably couldn't race to the age, though. It's a rumor, right? I mean, it's not confirmed. Personally, if I would be his DS or his GM, I would strongly advise against it because it's not worth the risk.

He already, you know, Let's not forget, Remko is constantly coming back from bad luck. His crash in, first of all, his crash in Lombardy, which was, when it's already a number years ago, it was a huge, big, big, big crash where he, you know, fell off that bridge. Then his crash in the Basque Country. Also, you know, broken colorbone, ribs, whatever. Really, really difficult to come back from. And then last winter, again, an accident with the car.

he doesn't need another one of those and putting him in the environment of Tour Flanders is I mean they're going to call me old-fashioned and too conservative but if I am the one who has to give him advice and maybe he wouldn't listen you know he would probably not listen to it but if this is confirmed I think it's a bad idea yeah you say old fashion but until very recently it would have been unusual for a 26 year old grand tour contender who was was a hilly one day racer to just hey let's try to do flanders that'd be kind of fun to win that that did not happen i mean like remember nebelie did it one year and he did he did well you got dropped though by terbstra and then valverde was doing it lance did it in 2009 but yeah you don't do that 2005

did he not do it in 2009 no you got like 20th place i don't hold on this hold on a second here Let's see. 2009. No. Well, he did the, he had a broken collarbone. Let's look at. 2005, Spencer. 2010, he did it.

He got 27th place. 2010? Yeah. On Radio Shack. Oh, I forgot about that. And let's see who the team. I knew because 2009 was a star nine. I know he didn't do it in 2009.

Well, yeah, I guess that would make sense because he wasn't raised. He did 2005 on Discovery, I think. Okay. How do he do? Well, he was, he mean he raced for George. I don't know if you finished. I think he finished 2005. Well, it was not like, just to be like, hey, I think I'm going to race Flanders.

That is pretty wild. That's a wild thing to do. I would love to see it. Probably not the smartest thing, especially if you're trying to win a grand tour. That is very risky. But let's take another quick break. And then I, we have some more questions for you. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile.

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Now available in Canada, too. That's quince, Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash the move. free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash the move. Okay, Yohan, we're back. Just to make sure I don't forget this question, Albert is in the chat. Albert emailed me this question, and this is a good question. How the heck did Eddie Merck's managed to win Milano San Ramos seven times? The more I think about it, the more absurd it seems.

Was he winning them all from sprints? No, no, no, no, no, no. Sometimes in the sprint, sometimes attack. Yeah, it is crazy actually, to the minute. He was not a sprinter. He was strong. That's crazy. Sometimes he started the sprint so far.

And the sprinters were already so dead that he won in the sprint. But, you know, now, it's mind-blowing. Good question. Good question. The answer is, I don't know. I mean, shows how strong he was, how dominant he was. I mean, I think the majority of the times he was, you know, he attacked and there was one or two or three guys. He was really, really strong.

sprinter in small groups. But I think one or two times he won't like from, I mean, not with the big sprinters, but like from a group of 20, 30 riders. You also won it that way. That is impressive, man. Dark magic. Seven times in Lansom Ramos. It's crazy. It's one of the crazy. It's one of these things you hear and you're like,

that's a lot. And the more you think about it, the more unbelievable that is. Yeah. I mean, it is. It is one of the most difficult races to win. Yeah. You think you win that seven times. It is, it's the hard, I think it's the hardest race to win in modern cycling. Speaking of modern cycling, we were talking about this in the pre-show. Modern training, you know, I've been like watching Jonas Aberhansen increases FTP by 45 watts per week on Instagram stories.

You know, everyone took a little break in October. Like I was just talking to Matthew Rickettella last week. He's back training though. And he said he's like, oh, it's not serious until next week. I think that's Thanksgiving, man. And like it just seems like these guys by mid-December, they're going to be flying. Absolutely fine. By beginning of January, they're in amazing shape.

I remember, Garret Thomas recently was, you know, he's an older man. He's like 40 years old, I believe. He's like, you know, you don't have to do the long climbs until later in the year. But it seems like that's going away, Johan. And people are in tippy-toppy race shape as early in the year as possible. Why is this happening? Like, what's the benefit of that? Yeah.

Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, I see it. I have a young son, you know, he's now turning junior almost 17 years old, and it's the same thing. I mean, it's still relatively calm, but I'm really surprised how fast these young guys get into shape. But I think the norm right now is to be just be always in really good shape and then just peak to have that extra 2%. You know, you can nowadays, the level of cycling today, You cannot be in, you know, in average shape and compete. There's no way. Even if you are one of the best champions and you go in, you know, average shape to tour down under, you're going to get your ass kicked. Yeah, you get dropped. Yeah.

You know, so, I mean, drop maybe not, but you're going to be on the limit. You don't recover the same. You know, you come back from a race and you have to, I think right now the purpose is you're in really good enough shape. that you do the races, you get a bit of extra intensity in races that sometimes in training you cannot do. That's also not always the case because, you know, if it's a stage race sometimes and there's two or three stages where it's flat and it's a sprinter stage, they, you know, they say they detrain and they come back from the race and they have done less intensity that if that would have done a block of training at home. But also they don't race that much anymore, you know, I mean, there's 50 races. races, 40 races sometimes. Yeah, 50, 40.

Yeah. So it's really being in a really, really good shape all the time. And then sometimes just try to peek and have those extra few percentages to be, when it's an objective. I do, however, I'm still, I'm still surprised that they start training so much so early. I'm following some guys on Strava. And I mean, it's still, I mean, in November, it's still relatively relaxed. You know, they don't do big rides.

But in December, it is full on. Full on. I mean, I'm going in two weeks, I'm going to Calpe with a few friends to the ride a few days there. And I know it's going to be full of teams, you know, the majority of the world two teams are there in that area. And yeah, they're just flying left, right and center. I mean, it's not that difficult because we. guys we don't go that fast but it is impressive to see the level of of these guys and then next to it you know the development teams the juniors teams the women's teams they're flying

december over there it's it's it's it's it's it's it's crazy well we think it doesn't make any sense but maybe our think he doesn't make sense because you look at the tour down under look who does well there this is 2025 so this last year no jonathan navarez wins it uh This is on Wollonga Hill, the queen stage. Oscar Anley second. Oscar only goes on to have an amazing tour of France. 2024, it's the same thing. It's like Stephen Williams wins the overall.

Navarre's second. Both those guys had an amazing season. Isaac was 12, third, Oscar Onley, fourth, Bartlin, and fifth. You know, and like those guys all had great years. Yeah. So it's not like they're burning out. And Tom Danielson did have a theory that I think is interesting that the old school, you know, it's like, we have to rest.

So it's like you take a long time off. You get really out of shape and you're building back up and you think this is the right decision. But you're doing so much work just to get back to where you were that if you don't let yourself fall off that much, you can actually keep improving year after year, which maybe makes sense. And we were just brainwashed a little bit. Well, yeah. I mean, I think the rest is necessary more mentally than physically. Yeah. You know, like if you take a week, like a proper rest a week or, you know, 10.

10 days maximum, physically you are fully recovered and restored. But it's the mental aspect. You know, I've, I've always heard, and I think it's still the case, you know, like, when do you have to start training again after your winter break? It's like, in my opinion, it's when your body, when you yourself and say, okay, I really want to get back on. I'm excited to go. I'm excited. I want to go.

I feel I need it, you know? And I don't think there's a term. on that. For some people, it can be a week. It can be 10 days. It can be three weeks. I don't know. Nowadays, I don't think there's many guys who rest for three weeks. I think two weeks is the maximum. And still, those two weeks is not fully ready. They do other stuff. They're always busy, always. You can't drink beer for a month anymore. And then the thing that shocks me is the training when you come back. It used to be like, oh, just noodle around. You're fat burning. And it's like, now it's like, no, you should train. If you're training, you should train and get in shape. And that totally

flies in the face of everything I was ever taught. But clearly it's right because it's working. Yeah. I think I think it's the main, listen, Spencer, the main thing is that the, the quantity of races is a lot lower. They, they race, you know, between, let's say between 40 and 60 days, right? And and sometimes even less. So, yeah, the earlier days, it was there were 40, 60 days, you were like, what? You know, a professional cyclist, you hardly race. There is something about racing that can't get you in shape and then can, like, wear you out. It's never on your own terms and you're traveling.

And today's cycling, Spencer, you have to go to the races that you know you're ready for. back in the days and I'm not going to say I would say that you go back 10 years the last 10 years until 10 years ago you could go to races and say okay you know I'm just going to go to this race use it as you know just right in the peloton not care about anything and bit by bit you got back into it those times are gone forget about it even the smallest race you know less important race forget about it. You're not, you're not, it's not productive. You're not, you're not building. Yeah. You're de-building. You're destroying. It's like the tour Tucson. Yeah. Destroying your body. Just being in that thing. So there was a news article about this today.

That's, that's what prompted this question. What is keeping Chris Frum, four-time Tour de France winner from officially retiring? He's 40 years old, has not won a race and now nearly eight years since 2018. why is he not just announcing his retirement? We know he's not coming back to NSN Pro Cycling. He's looking for a new team, it seems like. If he's not announcing his retirement, why is this happening? I haven't seen he's looking for a new team either, Spencer. We know he's not on the roster for that, you know, all ex-Israel Premier Tech NSN cycling team.

Honestly, I don't know. I just, I think the answer is he just loves to ride his bike. he loves to ride. You can see that he takes pleasure in riding his bike now. A guy like Chris Frum, who's won the two or four times, won the Gero, won the Vuelta, and many other races, you know, if you like to ride your bike, I think there's many ways of doing that. I don't know. I don't have the answer.

I've asked myself that question also. I think, honestly, for Chris, it's time to retire. I mean, he's, you know, he doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. I think it's himself. He just wants to prove to himself that he's still competitive. But as you said, he's near 40 or already 40. You know, cycling has evolved a lot in the last six, seven years. And, you know, even if Chris Frum right now would get back to the best Chris Frum

when he won the tour, we've seen already in several studies and analysis, that those numbers don't get you in the top 20 anymore. No. You know, it's like, it's, times have evolved. So, um, I don't have the answer, Spencer. Um, and then again, you know, it's not because he's, I mean, I don't think he has announced. He's looking for another team, but he also hasn't announced his retirement, which in my, is a bit, is a bit, uh, strange to me, uh, because I think for Chris, it's, it's time to retire.

and ride his bike whenever he wants if you know and you know enjoy a well-deserved retirement and enjoy the bike and his family it does seem like when there's no retirement it's almost like when you can't grieve you know someone it's it creates this weird thing where he he was the best he won four tours and then he never there was like never an end and then it almost makes you forget about their rain more versus I'm think of I don't know like Tom Dumoulon just stepped away and it's like we can kind of put Tom Dumelon's career in a box and you're like you remember it as a different era and then Christopher I find it strange I have a hard time like contextualizing his achievements because it's like oh he's still an active professional and you can't like totally celebrate that achievement

like Miguel Endrange is like didn't he just get off a bike he's like yeah I got dropped I was getting off the bike and you're never going to see me again. Yeah. Like there's a mystique to that that I think is nice with great champions. Yeah. Well, I think, I think, you know, I mean, no matter what Chris Frum does, I think we have to, you know, we have to acknowledge his, his legacy, you know, I mean, seven-time Grand Tour winner.

And he's been the dominator during his era, at least until 2018. He won the first one in 2013. At 2013, he won the first one until 2018. You know, those five, six years, he was the best grand tour rider in the, in the Peloton. I think we should, you know, remember him that way. What he did was, was amazing. Yeah, so shout out to my friend JP, who brought this to my attention. But Rui Costa and Esteban Chavez just announced the retirement.

Do you know what team they were racing for, Johan? EF. EF, both on EF. I had no idea. Yeah. that they were on that team. They've been quite invisible. I mean,

Drew Costa, yeah, but Esteban Chavez, I don't know. I think Esteban Chavez had a lot of problems with injuries also the last few years. Well, that's kind of, people think you just get slow.

Yeah. But that's not usually what happens. It's usually as you get older, you're struggling with injuries. Yeah. You can't train to the level that you need to to be fast. Yeah. Well, I mean,

listen, Chris Frum is the same. I mean, we all, you know, after that crash in 2018, that's, you know,

that's Chris Frum before. and then and there's Chris from after that you know and yeah it's unfortunate but that's also part of the of the job you know injuries and crashes happen well we got we got to we got to let you go Johan actually before we leave so if you were Remco's manager like what would you say to him said like what would his what would you have his plan be for 2026 his ideal race schedule I mean I think he should still uh First of all, focus on the races. You have won and you can win.

In my opinion, and we've spoken about it in another podcast, Remko, I would make him focus on Tour of Switzerland, Dauphinet, Romandy, Basque Country, races like that, you know. What about the age? The stage races of one week, like the, you know, there's, so you have, there's seven, right? So there's Lestilino, Parinis, Catalonia, Romandy, Tour de Swiss,

Dauphine, and the Basque Country. Yeah. So those seven, you know, let's try to win a few. You know, for example,

Joe Almeida, one three of them. Yep. This season. You know, that should be... And then he had his best G. G.C.

and a grand tour. That should be his goal. And then, you know, whether he does the Giro or, or the tour or the Vuelta. I mean, why not go back to the Vuelta? He's one that already in the past, you know, it's, you know, for the moment, I would get rid of the obsession of the tour.

Still, obviously, listen, if you can, if it, it depends. I don't think the tour should initially be the main goal for Remko, because to me, it seems like he performs better in Grand Tour. when the expectations are lower and just you know because just yeah into it which is what happened in the tour last year you're right if nobody gave him a chance i believe even famously on the tour preview there was not a lot of chance giving yeah but is am i crazy for saying i think the numbers bear this out maybe not the pagagia but the climbing is often slower at the jir d'etalia than the volta but maybe that's just because

of where it is in the calendar and the weather. The Vuelta climbs are shorter. So, I don't know. And I guess, yeah, now that you mention it, there's almost never a climb before the final climb in the Vuelta. Does that, maybe that's good for Remco. Maybe that gives him a cleaner run at it. Yeah.

Yeah. No, but I would, first, I would focus. I would try to win a few of those one day, one week historical state races. that would be my first goal. And he can do that because there's almost always a time trial and normally there's one, maybe two hard mountain stages. So that should be within his reach. Like Torano last year.

No way he doesn't win that if he does it. Yeah. I think he didn't do it. He must not have done it. No, he didn't do it. No. His first race was Fresbra Vanson and he won against one art. Well, that's a big Dave Bresford thing too.

It's like you mimic behavior. You mimic the winning before you get to the grant tour and then you know how to win at the grand tour where, yeah, maybe tackle a few of these one weeks. Yeah. Get him in the bag and then we think about a grand tour. Even though it sounds weird because he's won one, but you know, you have to like do it every year. Yeah. Yeah. He's won the Vuelta and been on the podium of the Tour de France.

I repeat, you know, to say that Ramco is not a grand tour rider, who else? except Jonas and today and Simon Yates are in today's palaton who could say that they want to go on tour and be on the podium on another one. Not that many. Chris Frum? Okay, yeah. Well, that will be our send-off. But thanks, Johan. Okay.

Okay. Thanks, thank you. Yeah, bye. Bye-bye.