THEMOVE - What Can the Early-Season Racing Teach Us About the Rest of the Season? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down the flurry of recent racing, including today's opening stage of the star-studded UAE Tour and the action-packed Clásica Jaén, and debate what we can learn about the performances before getting into a few listener questions. Become a WEDŪ Member Maui Nui: Maui Nui offers the only 100% Wild-Harvested meat that's completely stress-free and responsibly sourced. It's perfect for anyone looking to elevate their meals with delicious, high-quality protein. Maui Nui Venison is offering THEMOVE+ listeners a limited collection of our favorite cuts and products. But...supply is limited by the nature of their work, so don't wait. Check them out. https://mauinuivenison.com/lp/MOVEPLUS?utm_medium=podcast&utm_source=show_notes&utm_campaign=MOVEPLUS&utm_term=MOVEPLUS&utm_content=landingpage Hims: Start your free online visit today at https://hims.com/themove for your personalized hair loss treatment options. Results vary. Based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Prescription products require an online consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. 

On the UAE, you might be like, why are these guys talking about UAE tour so much? It's actually a more predictive race than you think. I went back and looked at it. So it's only been going on for one, two, three, four, five, six years. Every year but two, last year and 2020, the winner has gone on to win a grand tour. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. Apologies for the slight layoff last week. Johan and I are both recovering from sickness.

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to a healthy level and to keep both the ecosystem and the people safe. Because when you're driving around at night, it can be a problem with those deer running around. If this sounds interesting to you, Maui Nui offers the Move Plus listeners a limited collection of their favorite cuts and products, but supply is limited by the nature of their work. So don't wait. Check it out now at mauinuivenison.com slash move plus, not the move plus, but move plus spelled out M-O-V-e-p-l-u-s that's maui nui venison.com slash move plus spelled out all right johan let's get into the show we've had a bunch of races recently just today we had the ua tour stage one world tour race first world tour race since the tour down under last month jonathan milan won the sprint daddy pagaccio was contesting the sprint which was a little surprising i was impressed but then even more surprising as he was trying to break the race up

with like 40k to go he was up on the front taking poles and the crosswinds on the hills i assume just trying to drop the sprinter so we could go for the stage win we also had classica high end today i think that's an andalusia it was like maybe the most olive trees i've ever seen in my life mihout kievkoski won for inios giving them their first european pro win of the year some heavy hitters there some strange tactics behind that we'll talk about we also had tour de la provence over the weekend that matt's petersen won for the second year in a row. Some dodgy road furniture, questionable decisions. And then your guy, Anthony Morgado, won the Figueroa Champions Classic over the weekend.

And second place went to Paul Manier from Soudal Quickstep. Those are both young riders that you called out in the Up and Comers show earlier this month, or was that late last month? But to give you something to respond to, Johan, what did you think of this opening stage of the UAE Tour? Jonathan, there were sort of serious sprinters here. Yeah. It was a tough finish that helped him,

but he looked pretty dominant against guys like Jasper Philipsen it was impressive we already saw in Valenciana Tour of Valencia he won I think one stage two stages technically but one was a team time trial

ok good well anyways he won the last stage very dominantly and then he was impressive on a really hard uphill finish which was on trial okay good well anyways he won the last stage very dominantly and then he was impressive on a really hard uphill finish which was won by Santiago with Vitrago pure climber and he was second in that stage I think the last kilometer was like six seven percent uh so today uh it was it was a really hard a really hard sprint um the won, I mean, I saw a video somewhere of his power output in the last five, 600 meters. It's impressive. Um, and he had Phillipson in his wheel game, Phillipson came next to him. And then finally Phillipson had to sit down and, uh, and Milan

could still stand up. So, um, listen, I think he's going to be the dominant force in the years to come in sprints. You know, this guy has an amazing potential. Let's not forget, you know, that he's the world champion four-kilometer pursuit. You know, I mean, you have to be a lot more than a sprinter to be able to win that event. On top of that, he broke the world record.

He's the fastest man in the world over four kilometers. So if it's not for pure climbers, I think Milan can win pretty much any sprint nowadays. On top of that, I think we have to really point out since the beginning, since the season has started, but especially now also around Milan, Little Track is on a roll. They are super well organized. They're dominant in their lead outs. Same with Mats Pedersen, around Mats Pedersen.

But Milan has really demanded his place there as probably the top sprinter of the team. The proof is that the team has already announced that Pedersen does not go to the Tour, and Milan does. And so, yeah, I mean, that victory today was impressive.

There's a lot of good sprinters, you know. Merlir is there. Is Grunewagen there? Grunewagen is there, I guess. I think so. Olaf Koi was there and got dropped. You know, like that's how impressive Milan is. I mean, Merlier wasn't even in the picture. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if he had the mechanical or something, but anyway, he beats Jasper Philipsen, right? So there's not many sprinters that are faster than Philipsen philipson went for it full gas and

was beaten fair and square so um it just proves that you know he he already showed in valencia that he was super strong but uh this is world tour level and um i'm expecting a lot of a lot of victories from milan and um most likely also at least one stage win, if not more in the tour. The impressive thing about Milan is, you know, I, I, I hesitate because I almost said 2024 was the first season he really focused on the road, but even then he went to the Olympics on the track, like really 23 was his first full road season. He gets better. I feel like every race we see him him he's better than the race before he's 24 years old so he's not super young but he's just he's kind of just learning how the road works

i don't think because of that i don't think he'll win milano san ramo this year because it is such a finesse yeah that's a position but but i will say i recently we rewatched Gent-Wevelgem 2024. In that one-two punch of Mads Pedersen and Jonathan Milan, they really worked over Vanderpool at that race. If those guys are both better this year and Little Trek's looking this good, I'm kind of curious to see what the classics look like with these two guys. I mean, listen, Little Trek, they've done a good job in the transfer, on the transfer market also in the offseason. And, you know, you can clearly see that since Little has come in,

their aim is to be a super team, right? There's a huge budget now. And they're really living up to the expectation. They've become one of the three, I mean, you would say there's four big teams. And it's four super, super big teams. And Little Trek is one of the three i mean you would say there's four big teams and it's four super super big teams and little track is one of them you have uae visma red bull and uh and little track i think those are the four biggest teams yeah i mean they're kind of like the thinking man super team too they don't just they don't have probably the best writer for writer talent

but it's like the people they get people right below who could be could be up there but they're not there yet and they kind of develop and like who was talking about jonathan milan in 2022 yeah like he was on bahrain and no one ever heard about him and then little trek picked him up a couple interesting things about the stage i don't want to talk about pagacha too much because we're going to be talking about him all season long but he did look he looked like he was having fun like messing with people uh i would be worried it looks like you know it looks like he's it's it's a game for him you know i mean even before the uae we know he went to recon the tour flanders and uh and then you know he posts a video of him you, on the Arnberg Forest and lets everybody guess, well, will he do Paris-Roubaix?

Because he looked amazing on the Arnberg Forest in the recon. Turns out that I'm pretty sure he won't. He won't do it, but he was there with Tim Wellens and Tim Wellens the day after the Flanders recall wanted to go to see a few sections of Roubaix and so they just tagged along you know he just I don't know like Serious Canavan had a good point he's like

it's pretty intentional to go you're going to like the you would not say like the best place you could ride this time of year but I don't know i let's say he wins flanders do you think we're gonna have is he gonna be like i don't know is he gonna do ruby like is he leaving the door open here a little bit and then oh maybe he gets to check out some key sections you don't know with him you really don't know um i'm not excluding it, but it's not the plan.

It's not the plan. And personally, I think it would be I mean, of course, I have traditional thoughts about the program. He does focus on the classics. That's already unusual for a rider

who wants to win the Tour. But anyway, Pogacar has shown that he can win basically all the races in the season. So why not? But if you focus... I think for him, the Tour and the World Championships will be again his main goals, especially because the worlds are even harder than last year. You know, having the world championships jersey back to back would be also amazing for him, I think. So I personally don't see him at the start of Paris-Roubaix because let's not forget, you know, OK, he is a great bike rider, but the that you have a crash and and that it's a bad crash are pretty big i mean it's not like you're not alone in this it's you know there's there's a lot of people who want to be in front of the first cobble section something can happen somebody i

mean it's you don't even have to make a mistake just people just ride it they just ride into you you know well i'd say that'd be a problem for most people but it won't even be in the peloton i'll solve that problem just attacking before they even get to you are in the peloton at some point you are you know uh so so so yeah i mean uh no i mean we don't know but i think it was more a publicity stunt and let's say, Hey guys, watch out or I'm coming to play in your, in your, on your playground. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It would be quite aggressive to do. I actually wrote about this in my newsletter on Friday. I don't think we've mentioned this. I just realized we hadn't talked.

If you are a, we do member, you can read my members only newsletter. We'll put how to sign, how to be a, we do member. You can read my members only newsletter. We'll put how to sign, how to be a, we do member in the show notes, and then you can sign up and you can find all the information out after you do that. And if you're a member and you want to read it and you don't know how to just email info at we do.team. But I, I brought up Pagaccio to say this, Johan, great day. It looks great. He's on these funky new bikes. My theory is the team doesn't like them. Like what? So they haven't raced them all year. And then suddenly they're at their home race and they're on their new bikes

that are also based in Abu Dhabi. Well, are these things too heavy? Yes and no. I think yes and no, Spencer. Uh, I can understand that, you know, they didn't bring them to UAE to, to, uh, to down under, you know, it's a big logistical operation to bring these bikes over there. It really makes no sense. There's not been that many flat races yet. So of course, listen, Colnago is now owned by their boss. They've put a lot of investment into the launch of this new bike and whenever they can ride it in UAE they're going to ride it

you know they have to be on their best behavior on all levels that feeling everyone get the new bikes out make sure you wash them we got to impress the boss I'm curious how much we see this bike throughout the year

it looks heavy. I would like to actually get my hands on one to see what it, what it actually weighs, but he lost time to a GC contender. Finn Fisher black is former teammate now on Red Bull Bora hands grow after Phillips Phillips ends up. They used to, he's wild and out like that guy's, he's feeling himself a little bit. He was weaving all over the place. They relegated him. He's got to be the most finally i didn't see that yeah he was he's been he's got to start right in a straight line in these sprints it was really unintentional you know i mean i

saw the i saw the wave you know he he was you know he was full gas until he was dead then he sat down and looked back and while he was looking back, he just, yeah. It was a big wave. He probably was just done. He was dead. So Fisher Black gets a six-second time bonus. If you remember last year, Leonard Van Etveldt won this race, I believe, last year with a second difference.

Thanks to the bonification he took in one of the breakaways yes yes i'm never sure that was an incredible final stage but but that's something i'm trying to make this interesting it's not the same i didn't think it was interesting i like it looked fantastic when he was going for the sprint. But just if you look at the facts, actually, Finn Fisher Black played that finale way better. I kind of wonder if Pogacar could have won had he waited. Because Milan was sprinting for like half a minute. He was out there forever. Pogacar was the last lead-up man for Milan.

He couldn't have won it without him it was key um you on the ua you might be like why are these guys talking about ua tour so much it's actually more predictive race than you think i went back and looked at it so it's only been going on for one two three four five six years every year but two last year and 2020, the winner has gone on to win a grand tour. So you'd think, wow, this is really early. It's you can't tell anything actually is more predictive. And I mean, this is something we'll talk about when we get to high end, but it's, I feel like our old minds think, well, this is early. We can't take anything from it, but in modern cycling, it is like how you start the season is kind of how you are for the rest of the year. Garrett Thomas is one of the only riders that can get dropped every race.

He starts for two months and then snap into shape when he needs to be. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, or you when you're injured or sick or something, you start a bit a bit behind. But I mean, these guys are on the really super high level the whole year round now. or you, you, when you're injured or sick or something, you start a bit, a bit behind, but, uh, well, yeah, I mean,

these guys are on the, on the really super high level the whole year round now. I mean, and, and also we have to mention also Spencer, you know, they don't race a lot, you know?

So whenever they race, they want to be top. Yeah. Yeah. Like Pagaccio has been, been preparing for this for a long time on to the next one i want to talk about classica high end from this morning this evening if you're in europe super interesting race uh like mixed surface i think it's only the fourth time it's happened in the new race yeah um

i mean it's it's a bit i mean we call it like the Spanish version of Strada Bianchi, but obviously not the same, not the same distance, not the same field. You know, only 90 riders at the start. So that's, that's not, that's not very good. But there were some really good riders there. So I mean, to win it, you have to be in shape. I mean, you've watched, I mean, I just saw the last 10K but uh you've watched a bit more so tell me what did you see i saw i saw a lot of uh in a also a lot of uae in front yes yeah yeah essentially that's what i was gonna say but adam blythe i thought blythe it was maybe one of the best like

color commentating performances i've ever heard in a bike race he was he was a really angry and be like saying exactly what everyone was doing wrong in a way that was easy to understand but you had a after i think it was about 70k to go a three rider groups up the road with kiev koski who would go on to win the race there it was brandon mcnulty from uae and then a guy i never heard of iban ruiz from equipo corn pharma if that sounds familiar that's the small spanish team that won two stages at the volta last year three stages three stages my lord so he gets caught he's in the early move he gets caught by kievkoski mcnulty they're off the front strong group you'd say and then but inios had four other riders behind uae had four other riders

behind and they they were trying to like bridge across they were egan bernal was doing an amazing job of like marking moves of just sitting on them but i started to wonder and blithe was was losing his mind on this why not bridge up with like two other riders? Because if you're UAE, Brandon McNulty is not winning that. He cannot beat Kivkoski in a sprint. So you probably need another rider up there. If you want to win, they're just shutting everything down. They're not pulling. Ineos does the same. It works out for them. They win the race, but McNulty then flats and now they have nothing and then they have to respond del toro the riders they had up there in the chase group by the way

were tim wellens isak del toro igor arieta really young uh really good young spanish rider and then mark solaire so all very good riders like they could have done some damage in that front group with those guys also they also had a very... We didn't talk about this guy in the up and commerce. Remember this name, Spencer? 18 years old. Adria Pericas. Adria Pericas. I think...

Yeah. I think he was there and then he dropped back. He dropped back. Yeah, I see him. He was top 10 last week, last week also somewhere. He was the Spanish junior champion last year and turned pro straight away.

And Del Toro takes off, gets second. Super impressive ride. Couldn't catch Kivkoski. Finishes 31 seconds behind him. Blythe's theory was these teams in eos and ui have stage racing mind their stage racing minds turned on like they don't want to pull another leader up to the front because they have a rider up there but in a one-day race if you have a three rider group and you have a rider in it, if they can't win the sprint, should they have basically chased

down their own rider to get more riders up there? It's a difficult one. You know, I mean, who knows, who knows? I mean, listen, McNulty is not, I mean, he's a strong rider. I mean, and it's a hard race. Maybe they were hoping that he could drop Jutkowski Jutkowski is obviously hard to drop but those kind of clients but they really had a lot of confidence in McNulty and and then yeah I mean

if you try to bring it back you could also bring other guys back too you know if you have one out of three or you have two out of eight you know it's difficult you know, if you have one out of three or you have two out of eight, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult, you know, it's difficult. Yeah, but you're right. I mean, they're, these, these are teams. They're not really used to ride one day races and make decisions based on,

you know, you have to decide fast. It's completely different than a stage race. I thought it was an interesting example of as a casual viewer, you wouldn't ever think about it, but these ethoses get sewn into the fabric of your team and Sudol quick sex troubled for a long time because they are so good at those fast decisions. We're not so good at stage racing. They've gotten better at it. Oddly gotten better at it.

Oddly gotten worse at the one days, but it did make me realize UAE's one day strategy is so often, ah, Pagaccio will ride away. We'll make it hard. And he rides away. And then they can look like they flounder at times when he's not there. They just kind of lose that form, even though the riders are really good.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know know they've won a few uae for example one they want a few nice one-day races already uh it has a bit less i would say but uh right i mean it's not like they don't have that many i mean you could have said uh i mean look for example if you're Adam Blight, you know, and you, and you look at it, I would say, okay, well, you know,

our best chances here are to win with Axel LaRose because he's fast. Right. And he was up there. Yeah. But then you see when he gets to the finish, he can hardly get to the finish and he could not even beat the guy he was with who was bullshit. So he was completely dead, you know? So you never know what's happening with the legs. So in the final of a, of a race, you know, And yeah, that's true. It's, it's interesting that Kieff Koski, INEOS gets a win. I'm calling it their first pro win of the year. I don't recognize national championships as pro wins. Cause it's like Bernal was amazing. Bernal also crashed, broke his collarbone.

Yeah. Well, speak about that. I mean, Bernal looked amazing. I mean, I watched the road race, uh, Colombian championships. He was incredibly strong. Um, even if it's only in Columbia, but you have to be really strong. It was super hard today. I thought he looked very, very strong. Probably one of the strongest guys of that group. And then all of a sudden, you know, we don't see him anymore. It turns out there was a crash and he broke his collarbone. I mean, how much bad luck could you have?

This guy was really on a high, you know, like first time in his pro career, he has the Colombian jersey, the national jersey. Proud to show it off, of course. His first race looked really strong. So you could say, well, he's going to have a really good beginning of the season. He's, it's good for his confidence and, uh, he's going to make another step forward during the season. Right. Then, uh, you know, unfortunately, listen, it's, it's not good,

but fortunately it's only a color ball, you know, it's not true. It's really strange, but it's, it's really straightforward but it's it's definitely uh i mean yeah really unfortunate for him you know i mean he was jumping between groups at will he looked really solid he looked very strong powerful well you know who didn't look strong and i know what you're gonna say but i'm worried wout van aert like don't be worried he had to switch on the fly from being their leader to then polling, taking polls because he couldn't respond to his own teammate, you know,

Ben Tollette, who then became the leader. I shouldn't be worried. I don't know. Why is the form not there? No, I mean, no, he's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. It's, you know, I don't know if, you know, he just comes off a training camp's going to be fine. He's going to be fine. It's, you know, I don't know if, you know,

he just comes off a training camp in Mallorca now. I don't know how they trained. I'm not worried. I mean, you would, yeah, you would expect him to be one of the favorites, of course, but Hey, you know, these guys are, are not machines, but I'm not worried at all. I mean, you can't, you can't draw conclusions, Spencer, based on, on that first race. Who knows what it was. I mean, maybe can't draw conclusions, Spencer, based on that first race.

Who knows what it was. I mean, maybe he had a bad night or, you know, okay, I'm being the DeWalt Van Aert Belgian defender, right? But I don't know. I think he's in good shape. He's going to be in good shape in the spring. I will say Wiesma, they do. You mentioned training camp.

They do have this odd, you know, they clearly know more about training than I do, but they've, it's a funny habit where sometimes they come out of training camps and everyone's terrible. Do you remember the Giro in 2022? I believe they did some altitude camp and they were all awful at this year. And maybe they're just trying new things maybe they push things to such a limit that they go over and then you're super fatigued when you come out of the camp

but it is something that happens he was in Mallorca the weeks before they have a bunch of riders on the Tainanau in Tenerife but Van Aert is not there. Van Aert was in Mallorca

training. Interesting. I know Nielsen Palace has talked about how their methods didn't really work for him. And other teams, they come out of camps looking tired too. But Wiesma, it is something to keep an eye on.

It's kind of a funny trend and like at the giro last year where they just look they can look so dominant and then so rudderless at times and it's it's hard to figure out exactly why that's happening i'm very curious to see i mean matthew vanderbilt do we even know where he is is he skiing still but he's not skiing anymore he's back to me he's i think he went for a week. What's his first race? He has an odd schedule. It's like this thing last year where you're like, we haven't seen Vanderpoel.

We haven't seen Vanderpoel. Then he shows up and just starts winning monuments without doing any... One year, his first race was Milan-San Remo, I guess. His first race this year, a little bit different. It's Torino and then San Remo. Then E33 and then flanders but that is kind of funny because flanders is only his fourth race of the season but it clearly works for him but i'm curious to see how these guys that look so good right now like what they look like at flanders because we're

seeing some people look like they're on an extremely high level also interesting that any of us. Normally Spencer, I mean, you know, in back in the days, I mean, but there's still, you know, Flanders is still, what is it? Like it's, it's this, what is it? The 6th of April? April 6th. Yeah. It's still, it's still, still quite a bit away, you know, it's definitely quite a bit away, but I mean, maybe this should be in the questions section.

Does that matter anymore? It's almost 50 days. I feel like in modern cycling, though, do you feel like people are ever even improving? I guess Pagacar got better from the Giro to the Tour. He did go up a level, but it almost feels like everyone's on this super high level at the start. And then that's where you are for the rest of the year. You rarely see variants in form anymore. Yeah. But the people who peak towards the classics or not the, like, like the classics meaning like Flanders and Ruben, now they're not in top shape yet what is top shape like

they just have like more work I don't know I don't know anything anymore I'm so confused by this this model like do you think Jonathan Milan is in top shape right now or does he have another level to go no he's good no he's not in top shape yet no interesting

Adam Yates won the tour of Oman overall didn't actually he didn't look that great but he said i'm not i'm actually not in shape yet that's pretty good you won the tour of oman against some pretty good riders yeah valentine parapan for second in the gc david godud third godud youu he won that first uphill finish. He was really impressive there. But yeah, I mean Adam Yates is obviously

the best of those three guys. So he wins. But yeah, I mean in the case of Adam Yates if you're not in top shape and then these other guys are already super, super sharp, it's not easy to win those races.

They're hard. These are hard finishes. Perry Pontra, I couldn't tell if this was a real quote or what, but he said basically he targeted this race and got in top shape for it because he knows that he's not good enough to win like the best races

against the best riders at the best shape but he can like poach i mean the guy won a zero stage last year so obviously he can win very good races but kind of seemed like he poached us almost won the overall like he exploded away from yates on the final uphill finish he needed six more seconds like he borderline looked like he could have got it if he would have gone earlier. But David Godot, yeah, you said wins the stage three, summit finish, dropped on stage five. I was a little surprised. It's not uncommon.

He has a lot of ups and downs. Yeah, that's true. It's amazing. And then back in the tour, sometimes he just, you know, one day he just loses 15 minutes. You know. i thought they said that he's going to the tour for stage wins which i guess would make sense if you're not consistent but then sometimes he is pretty consistent like i'm looking at the volta last year sixth yeah he was fifth in the tour one year too i think yeah and then he kind of it felt like there was a

lot of pressure from that i'm trying to find that year so he's fourth in 2022 okay and then he kind of it felt like there was a lot of pressure from that i'm trying to find that year so he's fourth in 2022 okay and then he's not been that he's not been as consistent at the tour since then yeah yeah but he's he's a big talent you know he's he has a huge engine uh just not consistent enough yeah he's really yeah really really good rider i don't know if we need to talk that much about the figura champions classic but antonio morgana i'm just going to mention it because he attacked filipo gana was off the front very good rider like one of the biggest engines in the sport he gets caught on a climb looks like morgano attacks gonna look like he was going in reverse like that's how fast

morgano was going and you knew he was going to stay away within 20 seconds yeah the group off wins by four or five seconds he's been very strong he's he's been very strong already uh isn't this his third his third win or his second win of the season yeah it is his second win but he had it's his fourth podium and fifth top six. Yeah. Yeah. The guy is super powerful. I mean, you know, I do remember Spencer, you mentioned it earlier on that when we were talking

about the up and comers, you know, Morgado and Paul Manier, we mentioned them last year as the guys to watch. And they were there. But, you know, I had information in the offseason that they are super strong. And they, you know, went up another level.

And both of them, you know. I mean, Morgado has top three places all the time. Won two stages already. Two races already. Manier won at least one race i guess uh and then yeah one race and he wants one first one second one third uh and this is just the beginning of what we're going to see of those two riders they're they're you know they're the guys that will be we'll be talking about them a lot really too i mean not uh but they're they're you

know money is a pure sprinter but also can win a heart sprint like today, for example, and then in UAE and then Morgado is just pure power, you know, it's all over the bike, but the power this guy has is, has, is, is incredible. It's really incredible. I mean, it got overshadowed because the performance from Vanderpool was so amazing, but he got fifth at the tour of flanders last year as a recent legit just turned 20 i believe yeah yeah so yeah that's not every day that that happens that guy's definitely and on top of that he said in one of the races that he was in front because he was in front of and all those semi-classics also. I remember Belgian TV interviewed him after one of those races. And he said, you know, I don't really like these races, but the team makes me do them.

Yeah, contrast that to like George Hincapie, who made his whole life was the spring classics. It's like he built his whole life around it so he could be familiar with them. And I don't even want to be here but i guess i could win it maybe i do kind of wonder like how many how many talented youngsters like this can that team add before it becomes too many well you know it's inevitably some of those guys are going to want to break free at some point you know we already saw you know fin fisher black leaving um you know so everybody wants to go there because it's obviously the the team everybody wants to be on they have uh you know they they pay huge contracts but you know after three two three years they also see well okay you know i've improved a lot but i really want to have my own chance and um inevitably some people are gonna are gonna leave or god or maybe one of them

you know we'll see yeah i do more god is very good i don't think this guy i think he probably will leave because he can't be behind pagacha forever they are different ages so maybe that timeline could work out but sometimes being the second fiddle is good like think of joao alameda at valenciana recently you know like when he gets the reins he looks fantastic when he's helping you like the tour last year it's like yeah joao alameda like could he win a grand tour and then you watch this race where he had the lead and it just like got shaken loose by butrago on a yeah but i have I have to... Okay, but he was... I mean, he was good. He was good on Maida, but I have to say Butrago was outstanding.

He was the best by far. There's no discussion. You know, these races are kind of won with small differences, but... And he won, I don't know how many seconds it was at the end, but Butrago was just the strongest. No discussion. He was not going to lose that race. Well, he lost something like 20 seconds how many seconds it was at the end but butrago was just the strongest no discussion he uh

he was not going to lose that race well he lost something like 20 seconds in the team time trial and then just just took it back methodically he was in control of that race i thought you know like uh bernal won the double national championships the same week and i thought i don't even know if bernal is the best colombian this weekend Like that's how good Butraga looked. He looked incredible. But let's take a quick break for our sponsor, Johan. And then we're going to talk about what you got up to this weekend. Hey everybody, this episode is brought to you by HIMS. HIMS wants you to know if you've lost your hair, it doesn't mean you can't find it again. Try HIMS Hair Loss Solutions, and you'll be joining hundreds of thousands of subscribers who have found their hair. Again, everyone knows it can be hard for men to talk and deal with hair loss,

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consultation with a healthcare provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Some restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. All right, back to the show. So Johan, the Tour de la Provence, we don't have to break down what happened here. Mads Pedersen lost the opening sprint and said, I got to figure something else out. And then he attacked at will on stage two, got away with Matty Mohoric. Pretty impressive that he just game playing that out got enough time wins a stage against mahorich of the sprint and then wins the overall but on the final stage stage three going into the high speed sprint finish little speed bump probably about 100

meters 50 meters before the final before the finish line pascal ackerman you know leaves the ground crash is super dangerous for him and everyone around him then you you tweet about basically there's there's a tweet from pro cycling stats tagging you you respond it seems like you guys are both in agreement that this is like unacceptable yeah if you look at if you look at i mean this is just just one incident and, you know, it's a smaller race, but, you know, Tour de la Provence seems, I mean, and then I checked a little bit their organization and all the staff they have. They look, they have

decent resources, you know. So, I'm just going to read out my response to, because Pro Cycling Start asked for my opinion. Pro cycling staff said, are you serious? A speed bump just before the finish?

What's your opinion? Adam Hansen, David Lapartier, Johan Bernil, Richard Plugger. So I just came back from an event I had in

the Netherlands like a cycling talk show with Johan Museeuw and with Dirk de Mol and Nico Matin and so I came back I watched I think I actually watched the finish on my

way to the airport I don't remember but I felt inspired to respond. I said, what's my opinion on this? A speed bump in the last stretch so close to the finish line should never be allowed ever. We have to ask ourselves the question, who designs these courses? This isn't rocket science. Depending on the profile, these courses have a reasonably

predictable outcome. In this case, there's a high probability for a bunch print, so a speed bump in the last few meters is almost a guaranteed disaster. So the first question really is, who designs the course? The next question is, who approves the course? I realize it's not as simple of a process as you might think, but ultimately for me, the big problem lies with the UCI. Their president, David Lapartien, keeps pushing the news that rider safety is one of their priorities. But whenever he has the opportunity, he blames the rider's behavior for crashes and accidents.

Sometimes that's true. But many, many times there are circumstances that can be avoided, like today. La Partienne also keeps boasting about SAFE-R, which is some kind of instrument they have now installed for the safety. It's what he calls an external and independent entity responsible for analyzing the safety situations and making recommendations for improvements. I just want to take the opportunity here to remind everyone, including La Partia himself,

that SafeR was initially an initiative of the teams. The teams came up with an idea of contracting an external and really independent organization, which was supposed to study situations and work on the improvements for rider safety. It's my understanding that La Partia has listened to the team's proposals, but, and this happens often with sporting federations, turned it into his idea and forced the teams to let the UCI do the talking. Now, SafeR is working directly for the UCI and not for the teams and the riders. It is absolutely not independent and their reports are monitored and published by the UCI. What the UCI does is usually punish either riders, directors, or organizers for incidents in races.

They prefer to punish small organizations. They will never punish, for example, ASO. Even if sometimes at Tour de France there are courses or finish stretches, which could be a lot safer. Then I asked the question to Richard Plugger, who was at the initiative of SafeR since he was the president of the teams union. Richard Plugger or any team manager, tell me if I'm wrong. I realize I may have missed some details along the way about this creation of SafeR, but I don't think I'm far off. So I'm not saying that this is a problem initially, that the UCI has created this problem, but I think that the whole system that is in place for safety is wrong and should be improved.

And it's very simple things. For example, if you look at the situation in Tour de Provence, this particular stage, right? But any race and any course, the rules clearly state that every organizer has to designate on beforehand a person responsible for the security and safety. They call it the safety manager or safety and security manager. I looked into the Provence because we were discussing about this on social media.

There is a designated person. I forgot his name now. It's definitely not an ex-professional or it's somebody within the organization. I think it would be very simple to make it mandatory that every single organizer needs to, it's mandatory, have a recently retired ex-professional cyclist in charge or assisting and advising this safety manager uh these courses need to be inspected by this kind of person like somebody who's just who's just there who knows the real dangers who can see things that other people don't see now in my opinion everybody should see that the speed bump should not be in the last 100 meters I don't think it's an ex-professional

you know but and then if you look for example Doudla Provence you look at the whole first page in the race book there's about 100 staff I mean impressive organization and you see that the spokesperson

for the race is nobody less than thomas wuckler who is also actually the the national coach for french cycling you know why don't they take him to the four stages that and and at least let him give his opinion about the finishes you know you can do this the day before um and say okay you know this is not possible and you know this is an issue um as i said in my tweet you know it's not always as simple as i put it uh it's also difficult to change the finish line a day before the race but this should not be things that happen the day before the race this has has to be, first of all, designed. Then it needs to be scouted by somebody who has experience in the matter. And then a few weeks before the race, it needs to be revisited.

And I don't know. I mean, I have no information, but I doubt that all the races are scouting the course close to the event um i don't know if that always happens anyway this was just one event uh you know one incidence it could be avoided there's many many many there's many uh we talk about it because something happens right but there's many incidents where nothing happens but it it could happen and it could be so much better. So I blame the UCI for not putting into place a system that and you can always improve on systems. But what's for sure is that if you the initiative that the teams wanted to install because they are worried about the safety of their riders who they pay sometimes millions of euros uh you know and and if you have if you have your whole team built around let's say

one leader for the biggest race in in in the season of the tour de france and you lose that rider in a spring classic uh or in another race like for example example, last year, the tour of the Basque country where we had this disaster of a crash. And you could say, well, you know, it's the riders because they're going too fast, right? Or they're taking too much risk, so they don't break enough. In the Basque country, there was something on the road. There were like roots that were under the road growing, and it was super bumpy, and it could have been avoided.

But the system needs to change, and there is this obsession of the UCI, and I've seen it in the past with other initiatives, not just about safety uh as long as it's not the uci who's completely in charge it's completely you know off the table and until they don't take the charge it's never gonna fly uh the teams could say well you know we're gonna the teams could say okay safe or whatever you know, we're going to, the teams could say, okay, safe R, whatever, you know, but we'll do another safe R. We'll do a safe R B, you know, another, another one.

And let's come up with, with, with, you know, and let's see if this organization makes different recommendations. You see, I won't listen. They'll try to sabotage it, which is what happened. You know, if I understand understand correctly because i read an interview with plugger uh about this um not so long ago and uh he was he was very detailed the team started it they sat they actually announced it i think just before the Tour of... Last year, two years ago, there was a press conference announcing the creation of SafeR.

Together, I mean, Lapartien and Prudhomme, the director of ASO, was the director of the Tour de France, were sitting at the press conference. They announced it together. And then Lapartien and Prudhomme

have talked and they just cut out the teams and took charge of it um pretty sure that prudhomme was also thinking well you know if this is an organization that teams have a lot of say in we could be blamed for certain things and if it's the uci who has their say, we're going to get away with it. You know, we may be warned about it, but it's never going to be public. And this is what happens now. SafeR, apparently they're doing a good job, but they are making too many compromises, I've been told. Whereas, you know, there are situations that can be improved a lot the thing that's shocking is this like what you said about the bass country that's a little complex you're like well then you'd have to

it's understandable to me how that slips through the cracks like should they have someone preview in the courses and saying hey this is has roots and it's bumpy in a pervert world yes the speed feels so obvious yeah yeah that's true that's But you know, to come back on the, on the Basque country incident, I don't know who it was, but I think somebody from, from Visma, uh, who has actually voiced their concerns, uh, in the weeks before the tour of the Basque country, that, that was dangerous there.

And that, you know, that it's a downhill they've done already before. You know, races like the Tour of the Basque Country, somebody like a good rider who has ambition, they go and preview the courses. They scout the course. They ride it themselves because they want to know everything. And somebody has said, okay, this is dangerous. Something might happen there. I don't know why they didn't listen or, you know, you can say, well, you know, the riders are warned.

Yeah. But, you know, when you get there with a peloton and you fight, you fought that crazy to be over that climb, you're going to, you want to stay on the wheel. You know, you're not going to break. Even if you know that a dangerous corner is coming up. If the guy in front of you goes and you don't want to lose the wheel, you're going to, you know, that's what, that's what I find, you know, La Partiana has been criticizing a lot the riders' behavior in the races and make them responsible for crashes. You can clearly see that, you know, he makes those comments without any knowledge of what it is to be a professional cyclist. And what it is to be in the final of a race when you're fighting like crazy. You can't think straight and your adrenaline takes over.

That's why you need a recently retired professional to be in charge. I'm not going to even say advising. He kind of needs to be in charge. They need to listen to that guy and they need to do what he says. They don't just need to take on on his advice and and then find a compromise no they need to listen to a guy who's been there and sees the dangers as they are i guess the problem is they're not that would just be a pain in their butt and there's no pressure to do it like if nothing if no there's not going to be any negative consequences like why would would you, you know, it's, it's, if you look, if you look at,

you know, when we finished this podcast, Spencer, do me a favor, go on the UCI website and look at the composition of the UCI management committee. Yeah. And, and, and, and count how many people are on that committee. These are the people who decide everything about cycling. Count how many people look like they know how to ride a bike, like they have ever ridden a bike, and they know what they're talking about. It's political.

It's pure political. So they take on, they say, yeah, you know, the riders are represented. The teams are represented. They always represented in a minority. Anything, any commission, any commission on the UCI, the majority is directly from the UCI. It's always at least half plus one is directly UCI. And then they take the right of representatives and the teams and organizers who in this case organizers or through the France is in bed with the UCI. So it never works. It's a pure political game.

And now that's why I think that this safe R, the priority of safe R, it's a political instrument to say, hey, you know, look what we do for rider safety, but they don't do nothing. Nothing. The proof is in the speed bumps along the way.

The way the fences, you know, the fences, that should be a standardized. These are the fences. This is the standardized i know okay these are the fences this is the model you cannot use these old-fashioned fences with you know the the the base that sticks out and stuff like that it's it's it's a joke it's a joke it's the same fencing that you have when you're like a cat five yeah a child's race that's the fencing from 20 years ago they still have it's crazy but yeah we could talk about this all day we will talk we will talk about this as we get closer to the world championships too um but to get into questions again info at wedo.team

if you want to ask a question first one i'm cheating this is for me johan i've been meaning to ask you about this stage four saudi tour if you remember tom pickock is away riding to the wind on that plateau the group behind looks someone mentioned to me they look spun out how fast were they going i looked at their average speed this is for the five and a half minutes pursuing pickock 30 miles an hour average you know that's fast but that's like that's that's rolling along in pro cycling now like it was headwind headwind 30 miles an hour pretty good but like you know first hour of a race will be 34 miles an hour so that's not overly fast do you want to guess i just picked a rider from this group i'm not going to say their

name do you want to guess their average cadence for that five and a half minutes? You're not going to believe this, this number that I'm about to say. 113 average. So my question is, is the cadence revolution out of control? Like at some point, do you need to just pop it down a few yeah that's just what they want to take 130 it's not even efficient that makes no sense who was it i don't know if i want to should we say their name i don't want to it was i only picked this person because they were nice enough to upload their ride it's rainer keplinger okay but they all looked like they were

pedaling about the same thing i i it's like that's not an efficient cadence to be especially especially in a group when you're taking turns you know when you can say okay well i find i find the cadence i'm alone i need to make sure i can maintain it you can say you know what around 100 you could you could say okay that makes sense that's that's a lot because yeah that's a lot yeah it just makes me wonder if these like if the short crank arm revolutions out of control like do kids these days know how to do they do they even all ride with shorter cranks we don't know we don't know but that was the talk of the winter if you talk to pros everyone know, it's not as scientific as you think. Everyone's like, oh, Pagaccio's cranks are short.

Maybe I should get short cranks. People were, people were chattering about it over the winter, but just, yeah, something to keep an eye on. I just kind of wonder, like, are the cadence at some point, like we saw with Milan, like power is good. Just being able to torque out a massive wattage over the course of a whole day is not great, but when you have the real someone in it can help. Second question, this is from Carl in London, Johan's favorite city. I have a question about decisions professional

cyclists make about where to base themselves, where they live, train, and how this fits into traveling to and from training camps, races and training camps is transportation caught are the costs of transportation generally covered by world tour teams so their riders can travel to and from the races and training camps and if so do teams encourage their riders to live and train in a specific region to cut down on costs for example for scandinavian for scandinavian riders to choose to live in their home countries do they essentially have to pay their own way to get to races and training camps it's like i thought this is i have the same question johan i've wondered about this a lot i assume a lot of people based where they live on taxes but well yes yeah that's that's one thing and then also you know also on the weather right yeah that's why a lot of people live

and then for example gerona gerona. Girona is super popular. People who can't afford to live in Monaco live in Nice, for example. Usually, you also want to be in a good climate, good training roads, and relatively close to an airport, right? Because you travel a lot. So that's, uh, if, you know, if you travel the day before two days before you prefer to run, to have a 30 minute drive, then a two and a half hour drive to the, to, to the airport, because then you still have to start your journey, you know, but, uh, to answer the question, the teams pay for the transport, um, to, and from the races and training camps uh

usually i mean usually unless it has changed but it hasn't i think the team would pay uh as soon as you leave you leave your house you they they give you uh whatever compensation for the transport to the airport if you pay if you go by car or you need to take a taxi or a train and then the flights, the team arranges the flights. So the team organizes the flights and makes sure that everybody has their flights. And then whatever

out-of-pocket expenses once you leave your house to the airport and then on the way back is covered by the teams. Should be covered by the teams. Should be covered by the teams. I know a few smaller teams that haven't respected that. I know one team in particular, for example, in Belgium, who was being sued by their riders because it's actually in the contracts.

At least I know that in Belgian contracts, it is mandatory for the employer to pay their employees for their transport to their work. And that includes if you have to take a car to the airport. And there's a fixed rate. It's in the law. It's nothing to do with cycling,

in Belgium at least. So I know one team that's being sued by a bunch of riders who have left fixed rate it's in the law uh it's not nothing to do with cycling in belgium at least so i know one team that's being sued by a bunch of riders who have left that team uh and even uh it's in their contracts i've seen the contract myself and it's it's black and white it's in there and they do they refuse to pay what happens if a rider has a private jet? I assume the team's not paying. No, no, no. I think, I think the team will pay the cost. I mean, they will pay the cost of a ticket. What class of service are we talking? It depends. There's riders who,

there's certain riders who have negotiated contracts that they should fly business class. I don't know. But you know, if a rider, uh, decides to take a private jet, uh, that's, that's the comes out of his pocket. Okay. It's weird. The whole team has to take a private jet. I can't, I can't figure it out. I mean, I would say my two cents, I feel like Nice is it's, it's, I guess, old hat, hat but man I think that place is underrated Nice is amazing I mean for training it's amazing yeah I was a pro

great airport you know international airport yeah easy train to the airport and if you're American you have no benefit of living in Monaco you can tell who makes a lot of money because they live in Monaco because it makes sense for them to pay whatever they have to pay for a tiny apartment to save on the taxes. But Americans can't benefit from that.

Matteo Jorgensen doesn't live in Monaco. He lives in Nice. Yeah, Nice. Same with Riccatello as well has an apartment in Nice. But it's a great place. That's where I would live. Good weather, good roads. I think that's the most important thing probably is weather, roads,

and can you feasibly fly out of there? Yeah. Yeah. That's like Andorra, I guess, is the downside is there's no airport. You'd have to go to Barcelona. Andorra is a pain. It's like the road from Andorra to Barcelona, which is the closest airport, like public airport is

a nightmare. There's a small airport just at the outside of Andorra, La Ceu d'Urgel. Private planes fly from there a lot. Sometimes, I don't know.

I don't know if sometimes some guys put some money together and they sometimes I don't know I don't know if sometimes some guys you know put some money together and they whatever I mean they charge her a little jet but you can't do that every week you know no and at some point you're spending so much money on jets that

you're offsetting the benefit of living there I guess Andorra does have altitude but I mean Andorra is a lot cheaper than Monaco to live of living there i guess andorra does have altitude but well i mean andorra is andorra is uh a lot cheaper than than monaco to live now the weather forget about it it's it's compared to monaco it's it's it's not good uh and you know especially in in the preparation the preparation time of the season is where you have to do a lot of miles. Because once the season starts, it doesn't really matter that much

because you're either at races or at the training camp. And you spend a very limited amount of time at home in the off-season. That's when it matters. And Andorra must be extremely beneficial tax tax wise and compared to the cost of living because for, for training in the off season, it's not, it's not a great place. It's cold. It's dark. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's in between three mountains.

You're in a hole. Yeah. You're trapped in a hole. I mean, presumably you're not spending every waking hour on the bike too so like what you do off the bike is probably important that's for like like knees versus andora like yeah there's not that much time you know if you're if you're a top professional rider i think what's what's also important i think is especially with you know riders who have families their wives they have small kids.

There's little communities amongst the cycling families. The wives have their little groups, the children know each other. It's like many communities, right? Because that's important also. If you're a cyclist and you're gone, you know that your wife is not going to be bored at home because she has other people to go out with and to do things when the kids are at school. That kind of reminds me, the more interesting thing is when you see someone like Jonas Finde go, I think he lives in Denmark, right?

He doesn't? He lives in Annecy. In Annecy? I did not know that crazy yeah so his kids go to school in france i know he has a big house there so i would assume that's his main residence interesting i didn't know that anisee all right well that i want to know more about that what's going on like what's the weather in anisee like right now it's very decent right because it's not it's okay yeah i mean it's it's uh yeah like from now on it's fine you know the winter's not great but um you know they're in mallorca or in calpe or on the tay day or that's true and man can you imagine i cannot imagine having a family i mean like, I'm going to go. It's hard. Yeah. For four weeks.

Yeah. That would be hard. Well, Johan, we'll let you go. And we have a lot of racing action. Like we're going to be following the UAE tour. We'll be back on Friday to get back on our normal schedule. So we will update people on what happens in the races. Then thank you for joining us.

Do you have anything else to add before you go? That's it. How's your, how's your riding going, Spencer? Yeah, I mean, speaking of the weather, it is like negative 10 Celsius where I am and snowy. I see you're doing a lot of miles on Zwift. I am on the Zwift, yeah. I'm quite a bit behind already now, so I need to get my stuff together. I am planning and there will be parts of the year where you're

you're rapidly catching me so i have to build a buffer when you're not when you're doing your 70 kilometer rides every morning i've got to have a nice buffer before that starts i'll do 100 tomorrow so see that's that's gonna ding me that's gonna hurt my lead okay well thanks joh. And we will talk soon. All right. Thanks.