THEMOVE - What is Ineos' Long-Term Plan? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin break down a few topics of the week, including reports that Tom Pidcock's mid-contract transfer to Q36.5 is off, attempt to make sense of his Ineos team's recent staff shakeup, and speculate on a few other news items, like Remco Evenepoel's decision to stay at Soudal-QuickStep for 2025, before answering a few listener questions.  Hear.com: Right now, at https://www.hear.com/move our listeners can sign up for an exclusive 45-day no-risk trial. So, you can hear the difference for yourself. So, what are you waiting for? Go to hear.com/move.

Lance was a leader, of course, but he's also been domestique in certain races. He came to the Tour of Flanders, for example, a few times to help George. In his and other races where he was not in shape, he did what he had to do for the team. But usually, you know, leaders are used to be in the leading position and that the team. But usually, leaders are used to be in the leading position and that the team works for them. Pitcock is a leader. I would say

for the moment, he hasn't shown yet that he deserves always the 100% leadership of the whole team. He hasn't won that many races after all. No, he only won five races on the roads. Everybody. Welcome back to the move.

Plus our weekly edition. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernil. We will fly through a few topics of the week before getting to listener questions. If you want your question answered, email us at info at we do dotteam and we will get to it the following week if we can if we have time johan the first thing i want to ask you about i think

last week on this show we talked about tom pickock moving to q36.5 how that made sense why that made sense i think mere 12 hours after we published that episode, I get an email saying he's not going to Q36.5. In fact, he's staying at Ineos. I have questions about if that's really happening. If he's really staying, it seems like being pulled off the team bus the day before a race, a monument that you had a good chance of winning. I don't think you can come back from that.

But what do you make of this? Is he staying at Ineos? What's going on? If he isn't staying at NEOs, where's he going? If not Q36.5. I'm still, I'm still thinking the same, Spencer. I think there's negotiations going on. You know, if it's true that he makes 4 million and then I've read somewhere also, or I heard somewhere that he actually had a base contract of 4 million, but he had, uh,

he had a million for every Olympic title also. So that, uh, you know, it's that that's 6 million already. Uh, anyways, whether, whether it's four or five or six, uh, it's an expensive contract. It's probably in British pounds, right? If it's any, it's an, it's a, it probably in British pounds, right? If it's Ineos. It's an, it's a, it's a British team and he's Brit. So I don't see a reason why I wouldn't be in pounds.

But, you know, any team which would be interested in, in, in getting him will not pay for a million. That's, that's, that's a given.

And, and I think that's the game that's being played now. Ineos, I think, wants to get rid of him, wants to get rid of the big contract, but maybe also about the rider, because we've also heard that there's some friction or was some friction in the team. And so, you know, any team that has an open door for Pitcock, they will say, okay, you know, we'll pay two and a half. You paid one and a half

and you still have a gain of 2.5 that you don't have to spend. I think that's the negotiation that's going on now. So, obviously, you know, I mean, having him pulled off the bus on the way to Lombardy I think that's a big one and I can't see how that can be corrected

um we've seen that there's been a big shuffle or there there's a lot of people coming and going in the staff that this week I think we saw five new names one of them is Arvason, ex-cyclist of Ineos an ex-director and team manager of you know, ex so he's supposed to be the guy

who needs to be the head sports director and restructure the sports aspect of the team a little bit. Um, I, I'm, I'm not sure it's going to be that easy, you know? Uh, but I was, I was surprised to see that they're bringing in all these new people. So obviously, um, there must be some ambition to keep going. You know, last week I suggested that they may be thinking about, you know, slimming down and gradually finishing up the team. I still think that that's a possibility. You know, I also saw this week that the head mechanic is leaving. Last week we forgot to say, I mean, the main guy, Rod Ellingworth, who came back on board after having left is now leaving also. We didn't say that. So who knows what's going on

there? It was telling to me, I saw an interview of Ethan Hater, a short interview at the world championships on the track. And so Ethan Hater is leaving. He's going to César Quickstep. And he was not very complimentary of Ineos. He said it's been a very tricky season for him. And since they know that he's leaving, even trickier. And he was trying to be nice. So it must not be very pleasant there. No matter what they do, I think in terms of restructuring,

I think that's going to take a while. And then on top of that, you have to look at the roster and ask the question, do they have the quality and the talent, enough talent to rivalize with, you know, the Vismas and the UAEs and the Sudok Weeksteps and Red Bull. At first sight, I would say no. There needs to be a bit of a change there

in recruitment also, and that hasn't happened this year. Yeah, I mean, before we even get to vismud and uae i mean do they have the same level of talent that decathlon has that's like you have to start picking off other teams before you even get to those teams the thing about inios is i have to believe the level of talent is actually quite high you know it's not at the same level as visma uae or even Red Bull. But this reset that they're doing, I think you mentioned it, they're bringing in five new staff members, kind of cleaning house.

I don't know how much we can say there, but there will be turnover at the top. As you said, Rod Ellingworth left. They've kind of replaced that. Arvidsson's coming in as lead sports director. Sounds pretty similar to Steveve cummings old role so i wouldn't expect to see cummings back but five new people they've like they're changing everything about it they say there's a this is a quote there's a renewed focus on specialized coaching and time trials sprint and power development endurance training science race

strategy aerodynamics and technology development i, my advice would just be copy whatever Visma is doing or in UAE, but UAE is a little bit different because they have the best rider in the world who can win whatever race he wants to win. But the blueprints out there for you to follow it. It seems like they are giving it a real good shot. Like they've recognized that this isn't working. They're trying something. I also wouldn't close the door on them.

Like, I think they're going to see what they can do this year. If it doesn't work, they always have the option to back out and do what you said last week, where they can kind of quiet quit the sport. But they need to do, they need like better results and they probably need to do it with less money. They're really cutting costs at every level. Well, I see the problem. I see, Spencer. The problem I see is the following. You bring

in these new people, but I still can't see any designated strong leader. What I've heard is that there's a team of seven people who makes decisions. For example, we've heard in interviews that the pulling of Pitcock was not a sports decision, but the superior management decision. And these are the seven people. And there's not many people there from within cycling. And I think that there's not one strong figure like we had back in the days when Dale Brailsword was running the ship. You know, he has a cycling background. He knows the sport. He knows people management and he knows how to make decisions. I can't see that right now within that structure.

So maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've been reading, I still think you can bring in whoever you want. But if there's not a strong leader who makes the final decision, then it's going to be a lot of people running around and nothing gets done, which I have the impression that that's a bit the case now. There's a lot of talent, both on the writers and on the staff, but if there's no straight line, then you're not going to accomplish a lot. Um, I mean, at least that's what I see from, from the outside, you know, but, uh, uh, we'll see. Um, it's a bit, uh, I mean, the Pitcock, the Pitcock situation is still, is still strange. I mean, you could, it could also be that Pitcock just says, Hey, you know what?

I'm just gonna, you know, just gonna buy through it. You know, I I'll, I'll take my money. I'll just keep doing what I like to do. Uh, you know, uh, some classics, um, a bit of mountain biking, a bit of cyclocross and get my big contract. You know what? I mean, that's a possibility also. Yeah. I don't want to come off as too much of a pickcock apologist but i i feel like they can make it work they can make this marriage work he's so good and i read this quote that was you when the deal was off they while before it was off they were looking for like a replacement writer to bring in the question i would have is you were putting that math out there like they pay a million and a half of pick up salary for him to go elsewhere. That leaves them with, let's say

two or 4 million, potentially 5 million to work with. The big question I have is like, who would they be able to get for even that amount that would replace the output of Tom Pickock? Unless you're getting Remco Evanipol, it's not great. You know, even like you're not getting Primo's, you're not getting Jonas, you're not getting today. Pogacar, like who are you getting? So you might be better off just sticking with Tom Pickock and saying, Hey, like you had a pretty good year on the road, pretty good year on the mountain bike. You want to your second Olympic title.

Maybe we just see what we can do. Like, let's go back. Let's not have the expectation. In my opinion, Spencer, it goes beyond the whole situation with PitDog. It goes beyond the sporting merits. You know, I mean, we've seen, I mean, of course the Netflix series, it's, it's, it's, it's not a real reflection of of reality but you could kind of get a glimpse that you know the guy is a strong personality must not be very easy to manage um you know you know there's a lot of big champions that are that way uh but uh within a team it's not always easy so i think it goes beyond this you know the sporting the sporting aspect. Um, so let's see, listen, I mean, it's, uh, right now he's still on the, on the NLs roster. If you look, he's still

on the NLs roster in 2027. Um, and Hey, he's in a great spot. You know, he has the guaranteed contract and there's a lot of other people waiting to receive him. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. It's good to be Tom Pickock. I think Gary Thomas said essentially what you said about the leader, that with Dave Brailsford, at least a decision was being made. And it kind of is irrelevant if it's a good or bad decision.

Like decisions just have to get made because if they don't get made, nothing can get done and things stagnate. My question for in eos your british team you're looking for an identity i'm now looking at the top ranked british writers from 2024 they have in the top 10 there's two that are in any of us tom pickock and garrett thomas adam yates that ship sailed he's not coming back. But like Stevie Williams, like what? I just don't understand. Why are they not going to like Steven Williams?

Like what's it going to take to get you on this team? We're going to write you a check. Oscar Onley, really good rider. He's on DSM. Like Max Poole, he's on DSM as well. Like why would these Joe Blackmore, that guy is a stud and he's on Israel premier tech with Williams. Like that's the question I always have is like, what is happening there?

Like, how could you not be able to recruit your own, the writers from your own country that are actually really good in producing at a high level on teams that you have to think would be offering them lower pay than any else. Everybody. I want to tell you about a new sponsor we have here at The Move, which is Hear.com. If you've ever been frustrated with hearing loss, Hear.com is exactly where you need to go. These guys are the real deal. They've got an A-plus rating from the Better Business Bureau, a 4.9 rating at Consumer Affairs, and over half a million people are already loving their super tiny, super powerful German hearing aids. Half a million, that is a lot.

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get that offer. All right, now back to the show. The next topic track world championships were last weekend. I'm by no means a track. The only time I watch track is the Olympics. And I think this looks amazing. I should get into track cycling more often. And then I forget about it until the next Olympics. And I have the same thought. And then I always forget to watch the track worlds, but can you sum up, I know Jonathan Milan broke the 4k pursuit record. It's pretty amazing. He's doing that in his spare time, essentially like he's a full-time road rider. He's just coming out to, uh, to rip around the track. It actually shows you,

you think of these guys as sprinters, but he's almost like a, he's like a time trialist that I mean, it's just like has a really high amount of power for like five minutes. It says a lot about his potential. You know, I mean, if you're a sprinter and you're able to, there'll champion uh four kilometer individual pursuit unfortunately it's not an olympic event anymore uh i know i don't know why crazy yeah it's the ultimate uh track effort for the endurance athletes the four kilometer pursuit um but. But yeah, I mean, Jonathan Milan winning

the world title, beating the guy who in the morning, or the day before, I don't know, I have never heard of him, but this British rider, young rider, he beat the world record first. So it was

Filippo Ganna who had the world record. And then in the final, so he was actually faster than Jonathan Milan in the qualifications. And then in the final, Milan beats him. And so there's two guys in one day who broke the world record over the four kilometers, 3.59.15. It's mind-blowing, the Um, but it shows a lot. I mean, it shows the potential of Jonathan Milan. He's not just a sprinter. This guy can hammer

like huge power for quite a long time. Um, so that, that was amazing. And then for me, uh, Spencer, the, the, the really the champion, uh, the, the star of the world championships was Harry La Vreysen, a Dutch sprinter. He got his 16th world title, 16th rainbow jersey in his career. It's the sprint. It's a sprint. It's a small pool of riders. Yes, it's always the same guys, but man, 16 times. That's the sprint. It's a sprint. It's a small pool of riders. Yes, it's always the same guys. But man, 16 times.

That's just crazy. The power this guy has. And you know, to see also. So he won the team sprint with Holland, with the Netherlands. They always win. Then he won the sprint. And then he won the kilometer, which is very, very different exercise than a sprint.

Yeah. You know, these guys are huge. I mean, they don't look anything like a cyclist. You know, they look like bodybuilders. They're massive.

You know, there's when they, when they go like in the 200 meters qualification, I think I've seen some numbers of 2000 Watts or something crazy. But Holly replaced him, you know, and he's still, I mean, he's not, he's not at the end of his career. So that was, that definitely is something that I wanted to mention that it's, it's a huge accomplishment to have 16 rainbow jerseys in your,

in your, in your wardrobe or in your, in your house. That's crazy. If you're asking why, if this guy came to 2000 Watts, why isn't he just, someone should throw him out on the road. I had a friend who was a U S on the U S team for track sprinting. And he said, when he was like at his track fitness, he would get dropped on local group rides, like even on small Hills. Cause you're just so like, these guys are massive and you just can't, you couldn't get over any type of physical feature at that weight on, on Milan. I mean,

the guy's 84 kilos. So that's like almost 190 pounds. He climbs pretty well, which this starts to make sense. Like if you're climbing at that weight, well, it means you have an extremely high sustained power. And that is how you have the world record in the 4k pursuit.

Cause you can hold a massive Watts for a significant amount of time. And then we, the last thing on track worlds, sadly, we should mention Chris Hoy revealing that he is terminal. Is it prostate cancer? Is that correct? Yeah. I was surprised. I mean, we all saw his announcement. I think it was early this year

that he was diagnosed with prostate cancer and that he was very optimistic and the treatments were working well and it was going to be okay. You know, and nowadays in modern medicine, modern medicine prostate cancer is kind of, you know, not a big deal in the majority of the cases. Unfortunately for him, it's, it's not the case. It's I mean, I read that interview, that long interview he did with the times. It was, it was, wow. Man, it was so sad.

So he has been told that he has terminal cancer. The cancer spread all over the body and that he has between two and four years to live. He's still very optimistic. He says he feels great. He keeps still very optimistic. He says he feels great. He keeps riding his bike. He stays fit. And he is hoping that, you know, in the meantime, science and medicine makes new discoveries. And we just want to say that we're thinking about him and rooting for him and, you know um hopeful that uh something can be done

about it yeah no incredibly sad i did see that the nhs national health service that the prostate exam bookings were up like 700 since that announcement which is good shows you that people are that's like the silver lining i guess with any of these high profile very unfortunate cases that it does it like it sounds really stupid but i don't like i'm never like i don't have to get a precedent exam and then i see this and i think oh my i should go do that immediately so it just reminds you about early detection the next piece of news that we can fly through is today. Pagachar extends for six years at team UAE to 20, the year 2030.

It sounds, the numbers are big. It sounds big, but it's kind of, it's more like theoretical. Like he wasn't going to leave. They want him for as long as he wants to be there. I just kind of,

do you think what happened? Cause he had a long-term deal. Do you think what happened is they like reopened it and did they give them more money per year? Is that what happened here? Or I think, I think, I think definitely it's going to be more money. Uh, I don't know how long his contract was, if it was, was it 2027 before? I think so. But obviously, they're not stupid. They see that he's still improving and that he's

the pillar of their team. If they have him, sponsors come, riders want to come, it's their golden ticket. I don't know how the structure, the financial structure works there, but, you know, money's not an issue there.

So there was the reports were that he was at 6 million. I don't know how much, is it eight? Is it 10? I don't know. He obviously got an increase. So congrats to him. And it's, it's also, I think it's great

for the sport because we are seeing now more and more very extremely long-term contracts. Also with young riders, you know, and this,

like, I've already said it in one of the other, earlier shows, there's this young kid from Spain, from here, from Madrid,

who was, last last year he was still on my son's club in juniors this year he was his first he was his first year under 23 he's 18 years old was second in the Giro and baby Giro second in the Tour de l'Avenir and he signed with UAE so he was on the development this year and next year at 19 years old, he turns pro and he signed the contract till 2030. Wow. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, there's, I mean, we've saw, we've seen a few weeks ago, Walt Von Art signed a lifelong deal for as long as he wanted with,

with Visma. Um, you know, so, um, so yeah, long-term contracts, I think. There's a few young guys in UAE also that have contracts till 2028. Morgado, Del Toro. These guys have long-term contracts. So I think it's a new trend, which is good. It's good for the sport i mean logically it makes sense because think of the the bad cases or the i don't want to say bad

cases but where it's gotten complicated like oddly inios is is the is the patient zero for almost all of these egan bernal like just something that completely changes the rider profile. So like Egan Bernal's crash, Chris Froome's crash, which ended up with him leaving the team, and then Tom Pickock. So Ineos seems to be the only example of a team where this doesn't work out. They have Pickock

what, through 2027? And that's part of the issue of why they're trying to eject him from the squad as quickly as they can, or were trying to do that. But if you set those aside and you assume that most riders will not suffer just like a horrific mid-career injury that takes them years to recover from, you're better off locking someone like Morgato in for a long time because the worst case scenario is he leaves or he's like, I'm only on a three-year deal like i gotta get out of here um because they're probably going to be very good and you'd

rather be trying you'd rather be trying to get rid of them like ineos is pitcock then lose a writer like i'm trying to think of um like remember like tom dumoulin was that what was now dsm i think it was sunweb at the time and they just like every rider would get good and then leave the team, which is like, maybe they were getting bought out and the team was happy with how that was working financially. But you know, you're never getting another, like have they had it? They haven't had a Tom Dumoulin replacement. Yeah. So that, that is the worst case scenario there.

I think this makes sense. I mean, in the wild in our lifetime deals are kind of popular in the u.s you'll see like coaches sign a lifetime deal and then like six years later they're coaching for another team so there are ways out of these but this is what pogacar has with uae is essentially what and also vanderpool with alpacen these are essentially lifetime deals yeah yeah um and if yeah if anyone wants to change their profession like I'm I'm younger than Garrett Thomas so maybe there's still time but if I want to be the best writer in the world like what do you think he's getting paid per year if you had to guess I'm gonna guess eight million for his

new contract that's my eight euro so like that'd be like eight and a half us probably and he's worth it. That's the crazy thing. You know, you look at his production and he's producing what entire teams are doing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, and then, and on top of that, you know, this is a team where, you know, there's, there's an unlimited resource, financial resource. So it's just a check with a right to check. Um, so, so yeah, I mean, it's, you know, everybody wins.

And the team wins because, and the teammates win because, you know, knowing that you have such a strong rider just brings up the level of everybody. Yeah. I mean, it's clearly, I was just going through the tally of world tour points in 2024. So last year, UAE won the world. They cared a lot about it and they won the world tour team rankings, points rankings. They won it by a small margin, like let's say a thousand or fewer points. This year they won it by 17,000 points. Third place was Sudol Quickstep with 18 000 points so the delta between uae and visma was almost what sudol's entire points uh like collection was and they were third so that shows you like

they're they're the turbines going like they are producing a lot it's not just i mean the thing is it's not just pogacha pogacha is obviously the big guy. You know, he's the number one in the UCI also. He has double the points of the second guy, which is crazy. It's crazy. But, you know, they have a lot of other riders who have scored points, you know, in 81 or 82 victories in total. Pogacar won 25. So they have 56 other wins.

No, 45 other wins. No, 45 other wins. Yeah. 55 other wins. Yeah. And I know like Hershey's leaving. We'll see how that goes. But I,

I am actually convinced that being like, let's say Joella made a, I think that's, you could say, Oh, that's not a good place for him because he's always going to be overshadowed. There's people in front of him, but it's not a terrible place to be because you can really thrive in that role.

And I'm convinced he's producing better there than he would if he was a leader on, I don't know, decathlon or something. And there's a lot of other races where he can be the leader, you know? Yeah. Like Tour of Switzerland. I'm just looking at a few things here while I've been our training fully again, I know we just mentioned him. I actually was, I'll, I'll be surprised. I was a long, I was surprised how long it took him to get back after that knee injury.

I mean, it must've, it was not, he was also not in a hurry, you know what I mean? The season was finished. True, true. So I think he, you know, he really took care of, of, uh, healing properly. The, the, the injury, the knee injury was apparently quite severe. Um, and so, yeah, now I see, I mean, I I'm, I'm seeing his publications and, uh, on Strava and social media. So he does really good, right. So, uh, you know, at least now the question is, what is he going to do with his cyclocross season, right? Is he going to race cyclocross?

How many is he going to race? The thing with these guys like Van Aert also, they have huge contracts with their team. So, you know, doing the cyclocross financially, it makes no sense. They don't need to do it. Even if they get paid, I mean, they get paid good money, but maximum it's going to be, I don't know, 20,000 per race.

If he does seven, eight races, it's not going to make a huge difference for Van Aert. Van Aert is a guy who's paid three to four million. Yeah. Is that cash-free cash though? I don't know. Asking for cash though? I don't know. Asking for a friend? I don't know. IRS turn off this. I'm pretty sure he's going to do cyclocross because he loves it

and it's part of his preparation but he's not going to focus on it fully. And he doesn't need to also either. He can be top and he can win races without being 100% if Van der Poel is not there, uh, but Van der Poel is the same, you know, we don't know if he's going to do cyclocross. Uh, if he does cyclocross, is he going to be a top, top, top? I mean, listen, if Van der Poel

and Van Aert are there, it's, it's Van Aert are there, it's a different league. There's two types of cyclocross. The ones with Van der Poel, Van Aert, and Pitcock, and then the ones without. Right now, I've been watching a few without. The first ones, they're quite entertaining. It's very, very tight. And you never know who's going to win. When they're at the start, you always know who's going to win. When they're at the start, you always know who's going to win. Walt Von Aert,

I think, I hope that he can have a good winter and prepare properly and have a spring campaign without any issues because he deserves that. I kind of think this is nice time. I think this is perfect timing. Remember he had this slimmed down cross schedule last year

and people won't remember it. Cause he was injured for like 95% of the road season, but he looked good. I thought when he, when in between injuries, he looked quite good this last year. Like,

especially to think of the Volta, like that was close to the best we've ever seen him. And no one will remember it because he crashed out, but he probably would have won the points in the KOM Jersey, which is pretty impressive. Yeah. So I think for, for him, especially he's now in his thirties, right. He's 30. And that's like, let's, let's, let's like, let some of that cross go. Let's focus on the road. We don't have many years left here.

In Belgium. Now there's a lot of speculation. It's completely non-bike related, but you know, there's famous program, the mass singer. I don't know if you have that in the U S uh, we do mass singer. And so in, in, uh, in Belgium, it's a squirrel, it's a squirrel that comes on the scene and then a famous guy comes out or famous person comes out. So there's a lot of buildup, uh, apparently he's in one of the next shows he's the masked singer so curious to see what he's going to say yeah i want to see him

on the mass singer less muddy cross with a chance of injury or overextending themselves for the season i want more reality show wowed one other thing before we get into listener questions people will forget but remco evanipol was rumored to be going to Red Bull just weeks ago. Didn't go. Things seem to be good at Quickstep. Do you have any information on this? And I will say, I think everyone wants him to leave Quickstep.

It seems like that's always the rumor. But if you look at this year, actually, the team was pretty good. Like they supported him really well. And it's not a terrible place for him to be no i think i think he was he was very well supported he was never in my opinion in the key moments he was never in a situation where he was without a team yeah uh

in the tour london was amazing um um you know in the classics he he was well-supported. I've heard that the deal, I mean, this is just rumor. So I'm going to be like the rumor pusher now, right? It's not confirmed, but I've heard that the deal between Remco Evenepoel, him leaving Sudak Quickstep and going to Red Bull Bora was done. Done. even a pool, uh, him leaving Sudha quick step and going to Red Bull board. I was done, done. Um, I've even heard that, uh, there were lists that were circulated amongst internally amongst the team and the team staff and his name was on there already in terms of loading sizes and stuff like that. And, uh, apparently what I've heard is that there was a meeting at the Red Bull headquarters in Austria. And at the very last moment, things didn't go through because I don't know if somebody changed his mind or,

but what I see is in the interviews that I'm reading recently and separately, both from Remco and from Patrick Lefebvre is that it seems to be okay between them again that he's motivated for next year and I mean he said I'm not going anywhere I'm staying with my team next year

you know he kind of I mean he should have said I'm finishing my contract because he has a contract I think beyond next year. Yeah. So until 2026, I think. So I don't know if he now decided to stay another year and then move to Red Bull Bora afterwards.

Maybe also when Primos starts to be fading away a bit more, that would make sense. And then to add to the speculation, right? And I'm just saying speculation. In Belgium, the national coach of the Belgian cycling team, Sven van Toornhout, was extremely successful in the last few years. World titleslympic titles on all different levels cyclocross and everything he's also the cyclo he was he was also the cyclocross coach has now publicly declared that he's leaving his position so he is not getting he's not fired he decides to leave so of course uh then the speculation what okay, what's going to happen with him? He's been linked to UAE, he's been linked to Souda Quick-Step,

and he's been linked to Bora. The latest rumors in the Belgian media is that it's probably going to be Bora, Red Bull Bora. So Sven-Wout Toetenoord would make the move there to be, I don't know, is it the lead or the performance director or the head sports director? I don't know.

And then on top of that, he does have an extremely good relationship with Remco. So that could be the first step. Van Toornhout makes the move to Red Bull Bora. And then in 2026, Ramco does the same. This is me speculating.

Okay. It's not, nothing's confirmed. So don't quote me on this, but we're. We are definitely getting aggregated for that. And to add on this, to even put more speculation on it, just you describing what happened makes me wonder if something, if a deal was made behind the scenes you know that it wasn't like oh i i'm almost signing with red bull and la febrile

standing outside singing love ballads to me and now i'm walking away and i'm going back to quick step i wonder if if they if they all came together and agreed to some because they remember there's questions big questions to be answered at Sudol Quickstep. Like they almost had their team owner and their bike sponsor leave in the off season last year. Unclear what the future of that team is going to be. Maybe Lefebvre said, hey, ride next year with us. Maybe there's a nice little buyout from Red Bull in 2026. Red Bull was always going to have problems selling this acquisition to Primoz Roglic.

I heard what, remember the rumors he was drinking Monster Energy walking around the performance center because he was so mad about them pursuing Remco. I have no idea. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but with Primoz, it could be true. Nothing is ever too strange for for reality with them including running the morning of grand tour stages but you kind of wonder yeah it's like oh well we'll ride through 2025 on our current teams as primo starts to age out of a leadership role maybe red bull has a nice little contract buyout um of rimco sudol quickstep get some money i mean and lefevre is not going to want to do this forever. Like,

I wonder is he really go past 2026 with those sponsor deals? That's what I would say. I mean, if I would be, I mean, I think he's, you know, I wouldn't blame him. He's probably looking for, you know, a great deal for himself. Yeah. And yeah. So we'll, we'll see anyways, Remco has declared publicly that he's staying with Sadat Miksteb for 2025, which I think is nice for the whole team, you know, because if he leaves, then that puts straight away in question the continuity of the team.

Yeah, financially. And then also there's a rider reliance ranking that I saw. And it's like, what percentage of points do you rely on one rider for? And Quickstep is first like rimco having a poll basically wins most of their races and collects most of their points so they can't afford to lose them at least in 2025 and i agree it's fun it's good that he's staying it's always better when the best riders are on different teams so So listener questions, if you want it to be featured info at we do dot team, I'll just get right into the first one. Johan, this one's kind of right on

exactly what we've been talking about. So try a lawyer, fan of the show. Um, this is kind of interesting. I've been listening to all the chatter about pick cock and his issues with at the outset. I love guys who have, who transcend cycling disciplines. And that used to include pick cock after seeing a selfish behavior portrayed on unchained. I wonder if that was a fair depiction. I would add, I don't, I would not totally trust that. Then I heard you guys talking about how Pickock also ignored team instructions to not race mountain bikes in Canada. I think you said that last week. I have a few questions. If a rider is constantly disobeying team orders, doesn't the team have the right to terminate the rider for breach of contract?

If Pickock is violating team orders to undertake risky activities, how can the team not have the right to terminate or at least give a right to some other relief? I understand the teams have a lot of power, so I can imagine these contracts don't give teams rights. Am I wrong? Also, second part, given that road cycling is a team sport, how much does a selfish rider doing his own thing really matter?

Is it mainly a problem with team culture? Does this go all go away? If Peacock just starts winning, was Lance a team player? Thanks again, Ryan and Southern California. Yeah. Well, I mean, um, to go back to the beginning of the question, um, teams have power. Uh, now I don't know how these contracts with Ineos are constructed. I would think that if you ignore and if it's specifically mentioned and there's paper trail of the fact that, hey, we do not authorize you to go to race the World Cup because it's

not a team activity and you don't get our permission. I mean, I would think that those are grounds for severe action. Now, if it's enough for termination, I don't know. Maybe they have to give him the possibility to remedy. But anyways, I also agree that the picture we've seen of Pitcock in the Netflix series is probably exaggerated, although not totally untrue. But, you know, the show, you know, it's constructed in a way that the personalities fit the narrative they want to have. So I wouldn't give too much credit to that. But yeah, I mean, listen, a guy like if somebody is not a team player, he's a leader.

He's a leader. And at some point, these guys are able to pull off things that nobody else in the team can. On the other hand you know on days where these guys are not 100% and there's another guy who is actually in a position to have a good performance and to win

they should be putting themselves in the role of domestique and help them which I haven't seen so much from from Bitcock until now I mean I do think though that he did which I haven't seen so much from, from Bitcock until now. I mean,

I do think though that he did, he did help Carlos Rodriguez in the, in the tour that year. But, but yeah, I mean, it happens, it happens. I mean,

normally there's, there are riders that, that are born leaders. You know, we've spoken already about, for example, Juan Ayuso on UAE. He's a good example. He's been a winner since the very young categories, and he does not know. It's not in his instinct.

It's not in his DNA to be a domestique or a helper. He has done the job when he was told to, but then still you see that they're doing it 90%. They still keep a little bit for themselves because inside their instinct is, okay, I need to have a good performance myself. Lance was a leader, of course, but he's also been a domestique in certain races. He came to the Tour of Flanders, for example, a few times to help George, um, in, in, in his, in his, uh, and, and other, other races where he was not in shape. Um, he did what he had to do for the team.

So, uh, but, but usually, you know, leaders, leaders are used to, uh, be in the leading position and that the team works for them. But usually, leaders are used to be in the leading position and that the team works for them. Pitcock is a leader. I would say for the moment, he hasn't shown yet that he deserves always the 100% leadership of the whole team. He hasn't won that many races after all. No, he only won five races on the road in his career.

It's not that much i don't know who pulled that number up is are we sure that's even right give this guy a break i did i will say one thing with the uh the documentary i noticed when i was watching it steve cummings is talking to him and he's like i want you to work for carlos um and tom pickock's like no way and if you go back and look at the standings like where that conversation is happening he's like 20 seconds behind carlos rodriguez so i don't know if that was a conversation that happened later in the tour and they inserted it earlier to make it look like they were having

that after like stage five or if he said that it's unclear if he said it before, after he was at a GC, because if they asked him when he was a few seconds behind him, of course he's going to say, I don't think I want to do that. Yes and no. Yes and no. I mean, I've heard, I've heard the same Spencer that there's been a lot of things that have been shuffled around and that the chronology of the events was not the way it happened, but the way they wanted it to fit the story. Right.

But even in the case of Pitcock, you know, if he was 20 seconds behind Carlos Rodriguez, Carlos Rodriguez is the leader. He was fourth the year before in the tour. Pitcock has never been top 10 in the tour de France. So was he? But anyway, never close. That's a good question, Actually. I don't think anyways, you know, uh, Carlos Rodriguez has a better proven track record in grand tours than Tom Pitcock. That's, that's clear. So, uh, I think it was not, uh, it shouldn't have been a discussion, but, uh, it was apparently so um then on the other hand what you can say is okay you know

what i look at from that from this point of view carlos rodriguez was the leader of the team but he was in he was in sixth or seventh i think back then and he was not gonna beat podium he was gonna be top five you know you don't need that much help from your teammates. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, you need to have somebody with you in case, you know, first of all, they would never be in a position where a teammate would have to set the tempo unless you were dropped and then your teammate brings you back. But not setting the tempo amongst the favorites

that's the role of the leader of the of of the tour in this case it was bisma uh or a new ae so you know they always say okay he has no teammates but you know what if you're in the in the in the fight for third fourth fifth you don't need that many teammates the only the only time a teammate is useful in a mountain stage when you're with the top guys the top seven eight guys is that you have somebody with you that can go back for a bottle to the car because the cars you know there's there's an order of the cars and if your car is in seventh place that you have a guy that can go back at the top of the climb and then bring a bottle and otherwise you have to do it yourself

that's the only time that you need a teammate it's I think it's overrated to have you know you need teammates you don't need teammates unless you have to defend unless you have to defend the stage the race you just have to try to follow the best guys.

They're not going to ride away from the best guys. These guys who are in third, fourth and fifth. Yeah, no, it's a good, really good point. I feel that the whole, I mean, that goes back to the NEOs questions. Like why are you demanding you actually in that position, you should want as many people in the mix as possible because then you can potentially cause problems. So our second question of the week,

descents and racing somewhat topical because they're about to release the tour to France, 2025 route. We've recently seen descents factoring larger in race outcomes when riders have been dropped on descents coming into the last climb or the finish and we've also seen perilous crashes first one should races continue to include that that was part of the question should races continue to include such technical descents in the name of overall rider safety this is the second part should descents not be important in determining outcomes after all it is it after all is it not a

distinguishing skill set apart from the fact that there are riders willing and able to take fast lines which others can't won't how is it that there are pros who seem to be so lacking and cornering and descending skills so basically should they have descents like should descents play an important role in races like in courses and how are some riders so bad at descending yes i mean descents are are always going to play a part uh if you have if you go up a climb you have to go down they're going to be technical and you know the alps are there the pyrenees are there and if you want to if we talk about tour, that's it. If you talk about Giro, it's Dolomites.

All these descents are there. You have to be able to go down. It's as simple as that. There are not many professionals who are not good on downhills. There's a few. And then these actually stick out because they look really bad compared to the majority of the guys, but I can tell you, they're still really good these guys going downhill.

Nobody would be able to follow them. Who's not a professional bike rider. So, but yeah, I mean, the sense are going to be there and they're always going to play a part. You know, you can, if you're, if you're a really good climber and you can't go downhill and you lose two minutes on a downhill, that sucks, but that's it. Now, if you ask the question, should the finish be after a descent? That's a different question, right?

That really brings it to the question, okay, how many risks do you want to take? Sometimes they go up a climb and then they go down and the stage finishes in town after the downhill. I'm not saying that it should be forbidden, but the way cycling goes and they're going faster and faster, uh, risks are taken, but it's been, it's been like this for, I mean, I mean, if I think back now, I mean, like I did all my two differences without the helmet and we

raced down those, those, and there was finishes down, down the Hill. Um, it's part of it. It's part of it. You know, uh, and there was finishes down the hill. It's part of it. It's part of it. You know, I think descents are there. They're as tricky as racing a classic. If you would see what happens in the Tour of Flanders in those descents from those murs or in Paris-Roubaix, the lead up to the Arambar forest or whatever, you know,

other, other cobble sections. It's crazy. It's the same dangerous. Um, you know, the sense are there and they're going to be there. Um, I'm not in favor of having stage finishes at the end of a descent though. Well, I guess on that you, you and Lance hate it. Lance hates dissent finishes more than anyone in the world.

He thinks everything should be a summit finish. I guess the first problem with that is summits usually don't have towns. Who pays you to finish? Towns do. So unless you're finishing

at Alpe d'Huez, you kind of need to get to a town if you want finished town money. But then also there's the like summit finishes are hard logistic wise. Like, I don't know if they can do every mountain stage to fit. Like, it's much easier to finish in a town. Obviously, each descent is more or less dangerous than another one.

You'd hope they would pick the safest descent they possibly could to get into a town. Sometimes it feels like they don't but just the logistical battle of of summit finishes means that sometimes they do have to have finishes in the town and then from like a sporting perspective think of uh stage four at the tour this year if that finishes at the top of the galibier it's like a six second gap from pagachar to vindigo but because they go down the descent, I think just, I think it's, I think they're quite interesting,

especially a fast non-technical descent like that is, I thought that was quite fun to watch. That's a technical descent. Well, it's let's say fast, a fast descent, but not like, like coming down something in the Pyrenees where you're,

you're not able to go as fast, but I mean, actually, but then the reverse is remember Sierra Nevada, the Granada stage at the Volta where Moss gets a big gap and then he gets reeled in. Cause it's such a, it's such a wide open descent that he can't hold off the group. It does. It just adds, sometimes it adds a different component as opposed to like,

let's just have a ramp test up this climb. I mean, if it's, if it's, if it's a descent like Sierra Nevada, for example, then, you know, it's, it, it comes down. If you have teammates, you're in, you're in the advantage. Now, even if you get dropped a bit, but you lose a few seconds, but you can, you can have a teammate with you. You're at the end, you're going to, you know, you're going to make it back. Yeah, no, I mean, you can't always have finishes on top. Usually, I think the mythical climb should finish on top. Like for example, if we think back on the stage that Wal van Aert won over the Mont Ventoux twice,

I would have preferred that the stage finished on won over the Mont Ventoux twice. I would have preferred that the stage finished on top of the Mont Ventoux rather than going down the Ventoux and finished in, I think it was in Valois, was it in Bédouin? I don't remember where it was. Malossène, I think.

I want to remember if Pogacar got dropped and what a lost time, but then he caught back on the descent. Exactly, Yeah. Yeah. So no, it's an interesting, I will say too, on number three, it's exactly what you said. Like Mike Woods is considered a poor descender for pros.

Mike Woods would drop you on the descent. These guys are so fast. Like even Tebow Pinot at his worst with his worst yips you would not be able to follow him and sometimes it's just physical makeup if you remember Tom Pitcock

this could be called the Pitcock episode when he won Alpe d'Huez his descent when he passed Chris Froome which was the Galibier by the way oh yeah that was was that the same side or was it exactly the same past Chris Froome, which is, which was the Gullivy by the way. Oh yeah. Yeah. That was, was that the same side or was it exactly? It was. Yeah.

He's going like just the way he's able to sit on a bike because the way he's built versus Chris Froome means he can like go through the corner so much faster. Bitcock is phenomenal. The download, don't try to copy that ever. That's just not, that's never going to work.

And Chris Froome is a good descender. He's not a bad descender. He's not a bad descender. So sometimes it's just the way a rider is. To finish it, you know, why are some pros bad descenders? I mean, some of them have had crashes that, you know, they're there in their memory and, and, you know, some people don't get over it. You know, some people don't get over a bad crash in a downhill and it's always

present in their mind. And it's just, you know, that, that fraction of a second that they, they don't have the confidence, uh, makes you a bad dissenter. Yeah. Probably more of it's mental than you think. Um, and yeah, you have to remember the margins here. Like losing a few seconds on a descent actually wouldn't seem like a lot if you were just out descending with someone,

but things get blown open because at the bottom of the descent, gaps open. So they're probably all closer than you think, but it just shows up when mistakes are made. There's two more questions, but we'll do them next week. They're kind of complex

and I don't want to overload this show. Do you have anything else to add Johan before we take off? Nope. That's it. Um, I guess we're going to be back soon for the, to the France route announcement. So, uh, stay tuned for that. Is that on Tuesday next week? It's on the 29th. So yeah. Okay. The 29th. So we'll be back sometime after that, unless we, unless someone leaks us the route and we can do the episode before we will presumably be doing that after the route is announced, but remember info at we do that team for your questions. And we will talk soon.