THEMOVE - What's Happening at Lidl-Trek? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: June 5, 2026

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin go through the last few days of racing, including Ben Oliver's surprise overall win at the Tour de Wallonie for Modern Adventure Pro Cycling, and the ongoing Giro d'Italia Women's, before getting into the drastic changes behind the scenes at Lidl-Trek and if Grischa Niermann's decision to leave Visma-Lease a Bike to take on a larger role at the upwardly mobile German team will affect Jonas Vingegaard at the upcoming Tour de France. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team Caldera Lab: A small habit with big results. Go to https://CalderaLab.com/THEMOVE and use code THEMOVE for 20% off your first order. Quince: Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to https://Quince.com/THEMOVE for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. Hims: For simple, online access to personalized and affordable care for Hair Loss, ED, Weight Loss, and more, visit https://Hims.com/THEMOVE Square: Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at https://square.com/go/themove! #squarepod Lagoon: Use code MOVE for 15% off at https://LagoonSleep.com/THEMOVE  

Van der Breggen, who takes a minute on everybody else, including Vowlering, on that climb, I think it's going to be very difficult for Vowlering to shake her. I mean, she has the Vuelta Spagna in her legs. She did already two really steep climbs there, whereas then he didn't. She did the Angliru, where she actually lost the Vuelta, von der Beggen. And then she did that other stage the day before, which is also an incredible steep climb, which she won. So, and she looked pretty solid when Vollering was putting her effort in on that,

on that stage, she won. So I think, I think there's a good chance on the Breggen wins the Giro. She's won it already four times, I think, in the past in her earlier career. Yeah. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bruniel. We are breaking down a bit of racing from Tour de,

Walloni and the Giord Italia Women's and then we're going to get into the news of the week, which is the management shakeup at Little Trek with Andy Schleck coming in as CEO of the team, Gershian Nieman leaving Visma Lisa Bike in a pretty shocking move. Seemed to shock even Visemalesa Bike CEO or general manager Richard Pluga. And he's taking up, it's like a GM or head of racing role at Little Trek. So Little Trek, major, major shakeup. Johann, no one more informed to talk about it. the new. So I'm excited to get your thoughts on it. Before we get into it, how was your trip back to

Madrid? You get back on the bike? I hope not. I already got back on the bike, Spencer. So when we traveled on Monday, right? Yes. Anyway, my trip was shorter than yours, of course. So, so yeah, I already got three rides in since since then. So yesterday, we did our annual trip with some friends that I'm always doing from Madrid to Segovia, which is very nice on the road bike this time through the mountains. And then, you know, finishing at the aqueduct, you know, with a famous picture. And then a really nice dinner, typical, typical Segovian dinner, which is lamb. And how do you call that?

Like, how do you call that like a small pig? Suckling. Suckling pig, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So good day, good day yesterday. Did you and you stayed the night and then you rode back? No, no, no, no, no. No. It's it's it's it's we are we are organizing this like as we should as you know old guys who are you know semi-retired. You know, we are the day before we we put a

car there. Okay. Yeah. We ride in the morning. We arrive you know just after the noon. We have a hotel to shower and rest and then we go to to dinner and drive back home in the night. So, okay. That was nice. 130 kilometers, more or less, I think, 2,500 meters of elevation. It's a big ride.

Nice day. Yeah. For me, it's a big ride. Yeah. It doesn't need to be anything more than that, man. That's like perfect. And doing it on the road has got to be, you did a mountain bike last year.

That's a lot harder. We did it twice on the mountain bike already. Yeah. It's different, completely different. I mean, both of them have the charm. But on the road, it's the road bike is, it's definitely a lot more comfortable. Yeah.

Yes. Well, you're going to, you're going to disappear before our eyes. You're in, you're in race fit fitness right now. Ready for the tour. Gearing up for it. This guy is. Answer. This guy is never racing anymore ever, ever.

Like, you know, never putting a, a number on my back anymore. I've made that promise to myself. So that's going to stay like that. Whatever I do, I do it. I do it for fun. and for my own pleasure. I can see the merit in that. Well, since we've gotten back, it's a little jarring because, you know, we're so focused

on the Gero. We travel home, a little bit of a Gero hangover. And then race, the racing just keeps, keeps marching on. We have tour double while on knee going on this week. Five-day race. Monday was the first day. Today was the final day. Ben Oliver from George Schencappy's team, Modern Adventure Pro Cycling, wins two stages,

gets their first pro win, I believe, on stage two. It's their first win in Europe, I think. First one in Europe. First one in the Gila, at the Gila, I think. They won a stage there, if I'm not mistaken. They definitely want a stage there, yeah. But this is their first win in Europe. And it's, I mean, it's a nice race.

It's not an easy race, tour de Wallony. Pretty good field, you know, pretty good field. There's some really, you know, good team. I mean, Lotto's there, Ineos is there. There was a lot of World Tour teams there. NSN, you name it. I mean, many others. So, yeah, winning two stages.

This guy, Ben Oliver, I checked on him. He's 29 years old. So it seems he was riding crits until last year in the States. But definitely fast sprinter, man, winning these two stages and the overall, by the way. So that means that every day he had to be there. And then he won because of the bonification, I guess, today. But these were not easy stages. So that's a pretty good result for him and for the team, man.

That's, yeah, in their first year of existence, not bad, not bad. Now, and to find a rider like that, 29. So it's not like it's some young guy that you're picking up. He won two of America's Dairyland. last year. That's a crit stage race. People will know. What is that? It's a really good race, actually. It's in Milwaukee. It's in Wisconsin and the greater Milwaukee area. So it's relatively easy to get to you, keeping them flying to Chicago. Very convenient, very easy to stage yourself there, but you can basically race like 10 to 15. It's like something like 15 crits in 15 days.

Is that one of those races where these guys who participate are the guys who say that world two riders wouldn't be able to follow them or something? Is that? Is that one? Is that there could be a little chatter like that going on. And I'm going to say Ben Oliver's win. This race is probably not helping that chatter because it's like, hey, well, he wasn't winning every race. He got six at the Willow Cedar Creek Classic last year. I beat him so I could be winning this race against NetCupiny Enos.

But clearly the thing about Ben Oliver is he's a very fast sprinter, but clearly very good writer all around because, you know, I was shocked watching this race how different it looked from Flanders where we were. It's a very small country, Belgium, but it's pseudo-mountainous when you get into the Walloon region. So to stay with the Peloton on those stages, you have to be a very good

all-around rider. Yeah. No, no, Duolani is, I mean, ultimately, it's been in the sprint, every stage or reduced bunch, sprints, there's been a few crashes which have disturbed, you know, the results of the stages

a bit, but man, you have to be there every day, you know? And is it, who was second? Was it, was Riley? Yeah, Riley Sheehan, friend of mine. She was in the race third, no? Yep. And it was kind of a thrilling end to the stage today because Riley was in the race lead. He was sprinting, but the gaps were so close that basically whoever won the stage, unless Riley got second or third was going to win the overall. Yeah. And then there was a big crash. Only a few riders made it through. Ben Oliver and Delebe were two of them. Ben Oliver wins. Impressive to beat Arnold DeLei in a sprint wins,

wins the overall in time bonuses, gets two seconds advantage over Riley Sheehan and then five seconds advantage over DeLie. So basically it came down to a time bonus sprint on the final day. Tragic about the crash. The crash looked like that did not look like a fun crash. Guys were really messed up from that.

But to have a stage race come down to a sprint at the end is pretty cool. Cool. Yeah, yeah. And also what I was really impressed with, Spencer was the stage win yesterday of Arnodar Lee. Oh, my Lord. You know, so let's go back a little bit. So we know that Arnodar Lee started the Giro sick.

So, you know, he had won that race in Wallonia just before the Gero, which was his comeback to competition. After a few months of, you know, not having raced, he got sick, started the Giro sick, had to abandon after, what, three days, four days maybe. And then comes back to a row. Wallonia, which is his home region, you know, Arnold Lee is from Wallonia. And initially, it didn't really work out. You know, I think he had a flat on stage one, and he had a crash.

It was involved in one of those crashes. But man, yesterday, that, that win was, I mean, I was impressed. We had Riley Sheegan in front, right? Was it him who was in front? Yeah, so Riley clipped off the front somewhere and picked up bonus section. at a late sprint. We had Lawrence Pitti behind him, who's, you know, very strong rider, very strong rider. And, you know, they come into the fixed cameras and, you know, it looks like, okay, she has this.

You know, it was 300 meters to go. It was uphill, a drag. See, really bad weather. And you see that Pithy can't make it. He's not going to catch him. And all of a sudden, you see the Lee starting to sprint from the first position of the peloton on the pedals. On the hoods too. Incredible display of power.

And there's only him who can do that. I mean, and then I saw the information on the Lotto Instagram account. He did 967 watts during 54 seconds. that was basically a minute standing up on the pedals. And I mean, you could see when he, when he, so finally he passes Riley Sheehan with what 20 meters to go probably. I mean, it was so, yeah, it was so close to the finish. It looked impossible.

If you look at 300 meters, you say, okay, there's no way. This guy wins. And it looked impossible and he did it. And then, you know, falls on the ground. Like he was empty, really empty. To me, Spencer, you know, You know, we remember this win he had in Canada, one of those Canadian races where he was also a long uphill sprint. And he came from whatever, 20 positions back and, you know, started to move his way up.

And that was impressive. I think yesterday was more impressive. Not the same rivals, but I think that performance, in my opinion, is there are not three riders in the peloton in today's petal. Who can do that? That's why Arnold Lee is so popular as, you know, as a promise. You know, he has this unbelievable potential. Lots of, I know lots of teams want him. Unfortunately, you know, there's no consistency.

You know, it has lots of ups and downs. From what I gather and, you know, I have nothing to back this up. But, you know, he does have the reputation. apparently of not being too serious, likes the party quite a bit, during the season and in the off-season, I've heard. So, you know, imagine if that guy would really take care of himself and be super professional, how many races he would win.

I don't know. I mean, maybe we all know he's not going to stay at Lotto Intermarchie. It looks like he's going to Tudor, if I'm correct. I don't know if that's going to change something. He's going to be under the, you know, under superverance of Fabian Cancelada, who was a very serious worker. But I hope he can get it together, man. And if, I mean, I don't know if he's listening or if somebody else is listening,

you know, this guy has so much talent and just, I don't know, live for your job, man, and do whatever you have to do. You're going to win so many races. I mean, if you can do a thousand watts for a minute, the sky's the limit, basically. The thing is he seems to like unlock these performances and everything, they call it like in the military foobar. But it like messed up beyond repair, which is like everything's gone crazy. You think like there's no way anyone can catch Riley. And then he just kind of goes to this place and he's not even in a good position on the bike.

It's just, it's primal. Just like, I got to get to that finish line fast. and you can see what he's capable of. I mean, I'm in no position to judge. Even when I was riding my bike seriously, I probably was about the same weight as Arna DeLei, but when you look at a guy like Waltvin Art, he is given everything, everything to look the way he looks.

Yeah. So if you can lock into that type of commitment, someone like DeLie could do anything he wanted, I would think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's also known for, know i mean if you look he look at the way he he rides the way he sprints the way he moves on the bike pure raw power could be more efficient i mean my opinion is his style uh but he's known to basically break a lot of material i mean we've seen him already break pedal like break wheels

you know clipping out of his paddle you know winning pedaling with one leg over the finish uh he does break a lot of wheels and bikes and that's how much power he has. Yeah. Like someone like Bradley Wiggins, you know, so smooth on the bike. You can imagine that's what the equipment wants. And then you watch Dele. He's the opposite.

You brought up a good example. Bradley, it was like pure art on the bike. You know, doesn't move just the legs, smooth, you know, like very efficient. The Lee is all over the place. Yeah, you can have more, two more. extreme styles, you know. But anyway, listen, congrats to him for this amazing, amazing win.

It was, you know, it was nice to see. And so sorry to Riley. I still can't get over that. I thought for sure he was going to win that. And then it cost him the overall. But also congrats to George and the team. I mean, that's a big, and Ben Oliver. That's a big G.C. win for those guys.

So it's great to see. These races are no joke, man. And to win there, you have to be a solid bike rider and solid deep support. So, yeah, well done. And I don't know how they found them, but kudos to whoever slipped that one across their desk because that's a great pickup. Probably not an obvious guy to sign, 29 years old, been racing crits in the U.S., and they took a chance on them. Listen, Spencer, it's to prove that, you know, it doesn't necessarily always need to follow the actual

trendy pattern of super young talents go to a Devo team when they're 1920 turn pro and then there are other ways I think it's hopeful for a lot of riders who are knocking on the door

or have not been seen or being remarked by people there's always a possibility yep I think it's a great testament to that well let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about the year to tell you women before we get into the

hottest, the hottest part of the episode at the end. We'll be right back. Everybody, this episode is brought you by Lagoon Sleep. Everyone is obsessed with buying speed, expensive wheel sets, ultra-aero bikes and skin suits, testing, and wind tunnels, and then they sleep on a pillow. They've had since college. Come on, that's absurd.

Here's the thing about endurance athletes, though. We understand compounding better than anyone. You don't get fitter from one ride. You get fitter from consistent training over time. Sleep works exactly the same way. One bad night isn't the problem. A training block where you're chronically under recovering is. and that starts with what your head is on for eight hours a night.

Lagoon is a small company built by athletes, four athletes, a former Olympic trials swimmer who tested over 60 pillows, couldn't find one built with recovery in mind. So he builds it himself. You start with a two-minute quiz that matches you to the right pillow for your sleep position and body type, fully adjustable fill so you can dial in the exact height and support you need. The result, you fall asleep faster,

stay asleep longer, and start training days feeling better. The data is real on this. Athletes sleeping under seven hours are 50% more likely, to get injured mid-block. That's not an insignificant number. That's why I've been loving my lagoon sleep pillows. They've matched me with the otter. And as a hot sleeper, I love its temperature-regulating gel memory foam.

Since switching, I've noticed waking up more refreshed and that it's easier to jump out at 4.30 a.m. to catch the start of these zero stages. And think about the riders at the zero, racing all day, day after day, and then being expected to show up as strong the next day. For them, recovery isn't a nice to have. It's a critical piece of their arsenal. Go to lagoon sleep.com slash the move and take the two-minute quiz. Use code move, MOVE for 15% off.

That's lagoon sleep.com slash the move. Lagoon, the marginal gain you've been sleeping on. Hey, everybody, this episode is brought you by Square. Square is some big news to share. At their latest releases event, they've rolled out a wave of new tools built to help local businesses run faster, smarter, or more profitably. I was just at a local coffee shop in town that uses Square. Check out with seamless.

Tap to pay. text receipt instantly super clean setup no no like what is with these it's like a booklet of receipts you can get sometimes oh yeah can you want to sign oh you got to do some math on here to tip that that's ridiculous why are we still doing that in 2026 and so for square you don't have to as a small business owner myself running a media company i notice this stuff when systems work everything feels tighter and more professional and for other business owners out there what's interesting now is square i i you can literally ask questions like, what were my top sellers last month? Which day is my slowest? And it gives you instant charts and answers right on the dashboard. It's like having a built-in data analyst.

They've also made it easier to track costs, set aside savings automatically managed payroll and even accept Bitcoin with zero processing fees through 2026. It's all integrated. One platform, no chaos. So if you're ready to sell smarter, faster, and stress less right now, you can get up to $200 off Square hardware at Square.com slash go, the move. That's S-Q-U-A-R-E dot com slash geo slash the move. Square.com slash the move. Run your business smarter with Square. Get started today. Okay, Johan, the zero women. We don't want to talk about it too much because this could all change tomorrow because tomorrow and Saturday is not only the hardest race stage of this race,

but maybe the hardest stage of any women's cycling race I've ever seen. Oh, sure. Over the, over the finestra, finish at Cestrier, exact same. same finish as stage 20 of the zero men's last year. The GC after seven stages is Anna Vanderbrigan. I did not see that coming, leading the race by a minute over Demi Bollering. And then third is Antonia Niedemeyer from Kenya. And Anna Vanderbigen got her lead on, there was a really hard time trial, stage four, like basically just a climb time trial, like to give you the stats.

It is seven and seven and a half K at eight. So a serious climb. Van der Beggen just absolutely tortures it. Demi Vollering, who you would think would be perfect for an effort. Like you just look at Demi on the bike and she's kind of like Bradley Wiggins. Just no wasted motion. She was third, 109 back. And then she came out the next day, I believe, yeah, it was a tough mountain stage.

She tries to blow it up, tries to attack, can't shake Vanderbrigan. She does win the stage with a pretty impressive sprint. Takes some time bonuses back. But it's basically just going to come down to the. this, I would assume, the stage to whoever wins this stage, I would think wins the overall. It's been a little hard to watch this race because it's been finishing at the same time as Wallony. So I've been kind of split screening.

And have you, have you been following this race, Johan? Yeah, I've seen some stages. The time trial was impressive. You know, both, both Hanavander Breggen and Demi Volering. But Demi Vollering was third, right? Was it Roycer who was second? Yeah, Marlon Roycer was second. Yeah.

So the world champion time trial, but so she did it on a normal. The majority of the riders did it on a normal bike. I thought that I assumed that they had to. That's how many people were doing it on a normal bike. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, it's a climb. I mean, it's basically a climbing stage. I mean, seven, what do you say, seven kilometers at eight percent?

Yeah. That's, yeah, that's for a time trial bike, that's not easy. Both Wanderbragon and Volering. on the time trial bike. I think, I mean, what's what really impressed me, I mean, time trial bike, super light, normal wheels, light, low profile wheels. What really impressed me with Van der Breggen was how long she was,

I mean, every time we saw her, she was in the time trial position. Yeah. On the climb. And with an incredible high cadence, which is her trademark. It always been, but it was super, super efficient. I mean, not going to make a prediction or anything because tomorrow stage is coming to something completely different.

But I would think, Spencer, van der Breggen, who takes a minute on everybody else, including Vowlering, on that climb, I think it's going to be very difficult for Vowlering to shake her. I mean, she has the Vuelta Spagna in her legs. She did already two really steep climbs there, whereas then he didn't. You know, she did the Angliru, where she actually lost the Vuelta, von der Beggen. And then she did that other stage the day before, which is also an incredible steep climb, which she won.

So, and she looked pretty solid when Vollering was putting her effort in, on that stage she won. So I think there's a good chance von der Beggen wins the Giro. She's won it already four times, I think, in the past, in her earlier career. Yeah. And then this. Quite a while.

Yeah, this writer Antonia Niedremeyer from, was it, Canyon's Ram? Yes. She looked good. She looks very good. Apparently, it's a huge talent, big potential. And she also looked really good. So I think that's for sure the podium, von der Gereggen, Vollering, and Niedermeyer. I don't see anybody else coming in there.

I would say, based on what we saw in the time trial, I would say, advantage von der Breggen to win the Giro. It would be impressive. I mean, she was kind of, she was dangling a little bit on stage five. But if you just think about the time trial performance, clearly her climbing is good.

She doesn't put a minute into Demi Volering, if she's a bad climber on a climb. And Volering, unless I miss remembering, kind of her problem last year at the tour was the hardest climbs, right? Like the Madeline, she lost time and was like a good.

Summit finish. Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think Vollering was 100% in the tour last year. There was something off. Something off. I don't know if it was after that crash

or if there was something off. She was not her usual self. Volering this year, Spencer, I think, is on a higher level than last year's Volering. And then I'm just trying to go back through her.

So she lost the 2024 tour also climbing, But that was that she had that crash where she kind of broke her tailbone, if I'm remembering, right? Oh, yeah, that's when, wait, she lost that one. To Cassia diomia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She wins the stage in Avtauiz, but Neodoma is close enough that she wins the overall by four seconds.

Holy smokes. Yeah. What an addition. I'm quite curious to see how this plays out. It's only 106K. So it's on HBO Max. I assume it's going to start a little bit later and not. I mean, it will probably still be kind of a long stage, though, because that climb, I mean, what Simon Yates won this year on it was he did it in about an hour, like maybe 101.

So the climb could be well over an hour and then it could be like a two and a half, three hour stage, even though it's only 100 kilometers. Pretty interesting to watch, that's for sure. Yeah, I think it's going to be close to three hours. Wow. That's, I don't know if I've ever seen anything this hard in a women's race. this is going to be. I saw the Volarene was up here previewing it. This is a few weeks ago.

So she knows what's going to happen. She knows what's up, but there could be riders in this Peloton that have never ridden this, don't you think? Yeah. And then also, I also heard, I mean, surprisingly, that was kind of a shocker for me that Anna von the Breggen won that time trial.

She did not recon it. She didn't recon on that time trial? She didn't recon the time trial. Wow. She just went off video, whatever, or a Velo viewer and information from a coach who had. Interesting. She looked perfect, perfectly dialed on it.

Super focused on the effort and, you know, didn't, uh, didn't worry about knowing the climb. Did, so I'm thinking about the Otocom time trial. So Pagacchar did it on a, on a road bike and then. Oh, you mean, you mean, uh, Perigued. Yeah, sorry, Otocom was the day before. We gotcha did it on a road bike and then everyone else did it. on a time trial bike, right? Like Yonis and Remko.

Remko, Lipowitz, Rogelich. Yeah. So that is the trendy thing now is to do the time trial, the uphill time trial on time trial bikes, I guess. You would think, though, someone maybe would look at Pagatja and said, hey, that guy did pretty good. Maybe we should. And that's probably what some people did.

You know, I think it depends how comfortable someone is. First of all, the weight. You know, you have to get the weight down to the minimum. That's number one, yeah? I mean, speaking of weight, I mean, we haven't talked about the Gero women since, since it started. But was it stage one or two that Lauren and we just got disqualified. Oh, yeah, we haven't talked about that.

The race for having a bike that was 20 grams too light. So the minimum weight is 6.8 kilos, which is already a standard that the UCI introduced. It's already 25 years probably. I think it's time to change guys at the UCI. I think the 6.8 is a bit, you know, technology has changed. The materials have improved. There are, you can easily have a 6 kilo bike, which is safe. you know, that's not an issue.

6.8 and especially for smaller frames and stuff, the way the bikes are now, there are certain brands that you can have to add weight to get to the 6.8 because they come in lighter. Well, I thought this was at first. I thought it was viral marketing on specialized part, but clearly not because she was, no, this was really upset.

Yeah, I mean, and then there was this debate also. also, which is, I mean, I've seen it. I mean, it's a long time ago, but I'm going to guess that the technology of the scale of the UCI has not changed. I know, yeah. You know, those scales are not calibrated. You know, I mean, it's like you weigh it three times. You get three different measures, you know?

So I remember back in the days, we had, we had obviously a scale. So we, you know, we were trying to make the bike 6.85. to have a 50 gram margin but we always especially before time trial I remember the time trial of Abdu West in the tour we went like way before the start we went with Lance's bike to the to the UCI scale to make sure that our scale was okay yeah and it came out different you know it was just above the limit but it was not the same way as our scale. So I think that's debatable.

You know, I don't think, and first of all, I don't think that the mechanics of SD works would have made that bike so much on the limit and on top of it in a flat stage. You know, it doesn't really make that much sense. So that was not good, man. That looked ridiculous,

sending, you know, one of the best riders home in an important race I mean, I always think about people from the outside, right, who are not connected to cycling. And they read that as a rider excluded from the race because her bike was too light. Yeah. It's not a great headline, you know, for people who want to take an interest in the sport. It looks a bit of a circus. No, it definitely looks a bit of a circus.

And then you don't want to get into this. Maybe I shouldn't even say it. But then an Italian wins the first three stages. No. But it looks bad. It doesn't, you know, they're not helping themselves by, when was the last time someone got thrown out of a race for a bike being too heavy? Is that even ever happened?

I've never heard it. I've never heard it. And now the precedent's terrible. What happens if Vizma makes a little mistake? Yonish rolls up and his bike's too light on a stage. Well, I mean, you need to make sure that your scales are the same. But, you know, I mean, you could do that when it's a time trial, for example. But, you know, if this is, this is just a round.

random control, you know, basically so they stopped the riders after the finish. They put a tag on it and then you have to go and weigh the bike. I did read, however, that SD works and specialized are suing the UCI over this. So it's going to be interesting to see what the outcome is. So yeah. It shows you not, it shows you a lot of rigidity in the thought for the right for those officials. You could come to a pretty creative solution if you thought about it. On the other hand, you have to say, you know, okay, the rule of 6.8 kilos is there for a reason.

It's the same for everyone. You know, if you're under, you're under. I've read that the three measurements that they waited several times and there was a considerable difference in the three times they weight the bike. But anyways, at the end of the day, it was 20 grams under. So it was what, 6 kilo, 780 grams? Well, it's what's interesting about the safe, it's there for safety, but I talked to a couple different bike manufacturers this last winter. And it's essentially being exploited because they say we can make the most aerobike in the world that basically hits that minimum. So there's no reason for us to run a non-arrow bike, which makes the race is faster, which probably makes them more unsafe. So this weight limit is it's making all the teams ride

ultra-fast arrow bikes, which probably does when you put 150 of them 200 together, probably does make them go quite a bit faster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's take a quick break, Johan, and then we'll be back to break down this little track management shakeup. Everybody, this episode is brought to by Hymns. When thinning starts, it's not. just your hair that takes a hit it can change how you feel day in and day out hymns makes it simple to take control of hair regrowth with personalized care that fits your life hymns offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work including choose oral medications serums and sprays hymns can help since doctor-trusted

ingredients like finnesteride and monoxide can stop further hair loss and regrow hair in as little as three to six months and hymns thinks you shouldn't have to go to your way to feel yourself which is why they bring expert care straight to you with 100 percent online to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first. No hidden fees, no surprise cost. Just think of Hymns is your digital front door that gets you back to your old self with 100% online access to trusted treatments

for real health concerns all in one place. So for simple online access to personalize and affordable care for hair loss, ed, weight loss, and more. Visit Hems.com slash the move. That's Hems, HIMS.com slash the move for your free online visit. Featured products include compounded drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety effectiveness or quality prescription required.

See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monoxideil and finesteroide. Everybody this episode is brought to by Quince. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter and more breathable things that are easy but still put together. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing, think breathable linen and softer man of cotton. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markup.

It's a rare balance where everything feels elevated but still effortless. Quince European linen pants and shirts for the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation starting at just $34. Their teas are soft and easy to wear. And their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for the cooler summer nights or an overnight United Flight. Holy smokes to keep those planes cold. You're going to want that Quince sweater. Everything at Quince has priced 50 to 80% less than the similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen.

So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Quince goes way beyond clothing, though. Custom, upholster sofas, ceramic cookware, premium betting. It's the kind of brand you end up recommending to everyone for everything. We just had our live show in Belgium. I was traveling, but I wanted to look good during the show and I had to fly back right after. Well, Quince had me covered. I felt like I looked great in my European linen shirt with my sweater over the top.

I could take the train to the airport. I wasn't sweating. You know, you get that public transport in Europe in the summer. you could be in big trouble. But with Quince, I was fine and I looked good. So elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash the move for free shipping on your order

and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash the move for free shipping and 365-day returns, quince.com slash the move. Everybody, this episode is brought to by Caldera Lab. Caldera Lab makes high-performance skincare design specifically for men's skin.

This is important since men's skin is 25 percent thicker, oily, and ages differently from women's, which means men need clean formulas engineered for their biology. Their products are powered by clean, clinically testing ingredients, and breakthrough patent-pending technology, delivering visible results. They have three key products I really like and I use their anti-aging lightweight serum, their anti-aging moisturizer, and the anti-aging eye treatment. The thing I really like about the eye treatment is that eyes are the most visible signs of aging,

you know, the puffiness, the dark circles. It's like this ad is describing me. Well, guess what? The serum is going to help fix that. And I've been using it. And I feel like I look a little bit better. So a small habit with big results, go to caldera lab.com slash the move and use code the move for 20% off your first order.

That's caldera lab.com slash the move and use code the move for 20% off your first order. Okay, Johan, so just to get people a quick overview before you, before you go off on this. So Luca Gertalino, Gertalina. Was the... Gertilina, Gertilina. He used the GM of Little Trek for as long as I can remember, maybe since it was Leopar Trek. It's been a long time.

No, no, he came. He came when I left, Spencer. Okay, so was that when it was Radio Shack still? 2012. End of 2012. And then it became Trek Segefredo. Yes, after a few years later, yeah. So he's been there for a while.

And this like this winter there was I'm trying to remember there was some like some bubbling in the management Andy Schleck and Frank Schleck are brought in to help with the women's team and then you know we're having a little you know we've been talking about it all zero like

oh little truck they spent a lot of money and they had made a lot of moves like pretty aggressive moves in the offseason and not only signing riders but Liddle buys the team Liddle changes the team from an American kind of Belgian Italian team to a German team. Like you said they even moved the service course to Germany from Belgium, which is a pretty big move. You don't hear about that very often. So the identity is changing.

They're making changes. Signing a lot of riders for a lot of money, not performing maybe as they want at the zero. But they end up, as we said in our final episode, actually with a decent little race. They went a stage, win a jersey. they had the leaders jersey for a little bit. Not many teams can say that. Top five in the GC also. Top five in the GC.

And then I'm in the cab on Monday going on from the airport, get a notification that Gersha Neiman is leaving Vizma. I mean, he is one of the lead D. He might be the lead DS at that team. He is, when you think of the team car, you think of him. He's the guy that says, come on, Jonas, if you've ever seen these documentaries. That he's leaving to go basically be the GM at Little trek with Luca departing and Andy coming Andy Schleck coming on as CEO I was shocked by this

these seems all very drastic and Gersh is not leaving Visima technically until September 1st but he will not be at the at the tour he'll probably be on some sort of gardening leave not that involved with the team I would guess but Johan you have a lot of back behind the scenes information on this what have you heard about it yeah I was shocked I was shocked to see that you know I've been thinking about this, I mean, I've been reading already the last few months, you know, a few things that I thought were strange. And, and then reading this news. And I think, Spencer, I think I have, you know, some authority to give my opinion because, you know, basically I'm at the roots of the existence of this team because 2011, who, you know,

We had Radio Shack Nissan and 2011 there was a team Leopart. And both of the teams were on track bicycles, right? So what happened in the offseason of 2011, 2012, we merged both teams. Big mistake in hindsight for me. So you think that was a big mistake? Mergers don't work. Mergers don't work. Could the teams have survived without the merger, though?

Well, we could have survived with Radio Shack, but we wanted a bigger team. And Leopart was dead. Leopart was a team that started initially because Leopart means nothing. It's not, it's a made-up name. Yeah. So the team called Leopart Trek. And there was this Luxembourg finance guy who was funding the team initially. And the purpose was that they would start the team and they would find.

I mean, a big sponsor to replace Leopart. And so what happened was we had some meetings and we talked and we did finally, we did a merge, or basically a merge. It was not really a merge because the Luxembourg team stayed in charge and I brought Radio Shack. I brought Nissan as sponsors. I brought eight riders, I think. you know but you know like top riders was Horner cluden Leipheimer a bunch of guys from Radio Shack right and then a bunch of staff but above all we brought 15 million to the budget

and I remember time must have been a ton of money right it's yeah it was a big budget if you If you brought both budgets together, it was a big budget. But, and I want to give this background because I want to go back to this in a little bit, you know, because I am seeing now what I experienced then, which was I came into an organization which, you know, I brought these riders. Above all, I brought the money without that money, that team would have been not existing. And the guys on Leopart would probably not have their contracts paid. yet I felt like I was an intruder there.

I came, I felt an intruder that it was the riders who were running the show. You know, and if you look at what, who were the writers then, the top riders then were the guys that are coming now in the management. So, uh, plus, plus Conchalada. So, um, When I saw this new span, Spencer, I, first I couldn't believe it because first of all, I think, I think that Luca Gertilina has brought this team to where it is, one of the top teams, one of the top teams, although the results were a little off lately, but, you know, they are one of the four super teams, I would say, you know, you have UAE, you have Red Bull,

you have Visma and you have little track. Now maybe in the future, maybe Deccatlob. But then, of course, we know that, so initially it was Radio Shack Leopart, then it became track factory team, then became track little, and now it's little, track, and little is now the majority owner of the team. I think it's 75 little and 25% track. But the decisions are made by little now. and so Luca has built this team for the last 14 years

I think you know and and I know that personally I know that he had big health problems like very very serious life-threatening health problems and he kept the team rolling he's been I think he's been absent almost for a whole season but yet he kept the team you know he was in the hospital and at home

and he kept everything going I think it's really respectful the way they have treated this situation because I don't think that the people who are coming in now in terms of in these management roles and director's roles and CEO roles are not qualified for this. I don't think they have the experience

or the necessary baggage to run such a big organization. I mean, you know, Niemann has been a great DS, but as a GM, I don't know the guy personally, but I'm, you know, I have my doubts about this. Andy Schleck has been a cyclist and he has been running a bike shop, you know, to be promoted to the CEO of the company. That's, those are big shoes to fill. You know, on the women's team also, the same has happened. I mean, it was not so much in the picture, but the guy in charge of the women's team until this winter was Michael Rogers. He's been quietly put on the side and booted out, and Frank Schleck came in to run the team. So it's clear that this is the Luxembourg German-Austrian connection.

And I also hear that, I mean, I've heard that all the staff people are super disappointed. super pissed off that Luca is leaving. Some of the staff members, the 60th members have been now, are being downgraded. And then other people, mainly Germans, are coming in to kind of be the head of that department. So I think it's a big change. I don't, I mean, obviously the one thing that will probably save them is that Little has a lot of money. And it seems like they are willing to spend a lot of money, overspending.

You know, I've heard rumors that right now there's already a huge hole in the budget. You know, looking in hindsight, it's maybe not a surprise if we know how much they spend. Yeah. I can circle a few holes. You know, so I don't think, I don't mean, I feel the same atmosphere a bit as my experience. in 2012 there. The same people involved. There's one writer, one ex-writer who's now the head of sponsoring at Little,

who seems to be making the shots, you know, as big friends with the Schleg brothers and apparently very close to the CEO of Little. And I'm a bit, I mean, I mean, doesn't really matter what I think, right? but I'm going to say it anyway because I can say whatever I want. I think it's not nice. It's not right the way they treated Luca Gertilena. And then you see these press reports, you know, like Little Trek is thanking Luca for all the work and blah, blah, blah. And same with Visma.

You know, I know for Vizma it came as a complete surprise that Mirmon leaves and goes to Little Trek. You know, he's German. So obviously there's the German connection there. But you know, you see these press releases of everybody, you know, saying nice things. But man, let me tell you, behind the scenes, it's not, it's not nice. It's not fun. And yeah, I mean, I don't know what the role of track is in this year, exactly. But, you know, I don't, I don't think, listen, everything can change.

Obviously, money talks. bullshit walks but but and little has a lot is willing to spend a lot of money so you know probably they will be able to get somewhere in the end but I don't think it's I don't think they're making the right decisions I don't see

it as a successful change in leadership because if the vast majority of all this all the team members are really unhappy and surprised with the way this has been changing, that's not a good sign. It's not a good sign. Correct me if I'm wrong. The origin of Leopard Trek was certain riders were on Soxobank, and they did not like

it was like almost a militaristic regime. And they left to call the shots, right? They left. So they were with Guernary's. And then so a group of riders, which is the Schlegbrothers, Conchelada, Fuglesang, the press officer,

the press officer who became the general manager, that whole group left like out of the blue. And they created this team. And I remember Spencer when, you know, when I came there with, you know, with the sponsors and the writers and the staff. And I had this meeting with the owner of the team.

You know, he says, you know, we want you to, you know, install your rules and my rules, man, my rules. I mean, it was ridiculous. You know, this guy, the owner of the team, he said, you are welcome, welcome. And I hope you can correct this situation here. Welcome to the club med, club Mediterranean, which is, you know what he says? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's exactly. Like literally, you know, over his words. Oh, boy. You know, and so, you know, we're now 16, you know, 14 years later, and the same people of the club met are back. And, you know, and listen, they're not going to like what I say, but no, it's not, it's this, it's not going to work. They're going to have to do a lot of, a lot of try and retry

and they're going to make a lot of mistakes where, you know, I think it would be okay to bring people in, but leave the guy. Yeah, that's what I don't understand. They try to, you know, make a team, you know. Especially also because I know that Luca, for example, has done a lot for these writers who are now basically, yeah, I'm not afraid to say, like making these moves behind his back.

And, you know, Luca Gertelina doesn't deserve this. This is my final word on this. Yes, I think if people think are being harsh, it's because I think a guy is getting, we probably both think he's getting screwed here. This is not, from the outside, it doesn't look good because he was, you know, he kind of guided that team through tough times. Like, am I also wrong in remembering they break away from Saxo Bank? Go start Leopartreck.

I'm at university at the time. I'm a huge fan of this team. So excited for this team. And then they have a documentary about their training camp, which was pretty unique. You barely saw that at the time. It was groundbreaking. And I'm watching it thinking like, like, kind of relaxed. Like about what I thought it would be like.

I told you. And so even as I didn't know, I didn't know shit at the time, right? Didn't know anything about anything. I'm thinking like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And then they had a pretty bad year, I think. And you start to think. Well, no, I mean, they were, I think they were second. second and third in the tour, right?

Second and so 2011, they were second to Cadell Evans, but. And third. And third, but if I, I don't know, I would have to go back and rewatch it in its entirety. I think they kind, I think Andy Sleck was the stronger rider in that race. And, you know, yeah, I mean, Andy was a huge talent. Andy was a huge talent. And, you know, he was, he was a great cyclist, but. And they, I don't know.

I didn't feel like that they worked on their time trially enough. And Cadell kind of exploited that. and I thought they should have beat Cadell Evans in the 2011 tour. That's just my thought, though. But you're right. Second of third, the tour, very good. And then Kanchlar finds his footing and starts ripping off amazing results in that program. But it is, I don't quite understand what do you think happened that why did they decide to do this so drastically?

Like, why is Luca out? I don't know. I mean, it's something that's, listen, it's something that's been in the making. you know but I don't really know obviously they're I don't know they they want it completely German okay fine I don't know I mean listen Niemann is German if you would I mean if you would ask the management the top management of Vismalisa bike what they think about they'll probably tell you hey if we did not see this comment this is a huge disappointment and good luck to him because, you know, he's not qualified for the job,

for that job. I'm speaking for some, I mean, I haven't spoken to. Yeah, we're just, I can guess. I can guess that would be their opinion. I would guess that as well. And that that's a common thing that is said when something like this happens, someone gets, they leave a company and they go and they get a big promotion. If, so Gersha Neiman, he's something someone.

asked me, I thought it was a good question. What's the difference between a GM and a CEO? How do these roles in a cycling team? The CEO basically, the CEO is basically the guy who's in charge of the company and the finances and the contracts, which it's a big job. And especially a team like this because these teams are, you know, they have development team. They're going to have a junior team. they have a women's team they have the pro team uh man you need to have some skills some entrepreneurial skills and have an eight to nine figure company that you're running it's it's it's it's you know it's uh you have to have you know a minimum of of education for that or or a bunch of experience already in today's cycling right uh so i can't say

see anybody there of those guys who are stepping in now who has that none that's what surprised me the most CEO so I don't so so I would think that probably I mean little would probably keep an eye on everything but who knows what has been promised to the guys at little you know I mean may what do they understand everything do they you know do they I would think so but it's very strange it's very strange it's very strange to me. And again, Spencer, from what I hear from within the team, there are only unhappy people right now. So they're going to have a big job to do to straighten that out. Yeah. And you'd hate for little to come in and then have a bad experience. That would be the worst case scenario for cycling.

It's good for everybody. They're in already. You know, that's like, you know. Well, so I'm going to mount a defense of Gershen, even just for just so we're fair and about. We're fair in balance. We're like Fox News. So I went back to 2020, and we were just talking over the weekend. You know, how many teams have won Grand Tours? This is since 2020. Grand Tours raced 19.

Do you know which team has won the most Grand Tours? Probably Vizma. 9. So 47% of them. UAE 5. Red Bull 2, NEOs 2, Quick Step 1. Yeah, but sorry to interrupt, but, you know, Christian Nierman has been a DS.

He's part of a group that has structured and worked and planified, planned all this. To step out, okay, everybody has to start somewhere, right? But I just see this. It's too many unexperienced people together for these roles right now, is my opinion. Well, we'll come back to that. It's good point. So since 2020,

it's even crazier. Grand Tours raised 10. Vizma's won six. So 60% of them, U.A3, Red Bull 1. Also shows you how hard it is for teams like Lidl. I mean, there's only mean one, two, three, four, five teams that have won Grand Tour since 2020.

Three since 2020. I mean, it is just really concentrated. The thing about that I was thinking about Visma and just if I was Gersheneman, what would I do? So he's a sport director. And do you remember this guy, Moraine Zaman? He was kind of the head of racing,

head of performance at Vizma. He leaves. They replace him with kind of like an aggregate of people. Now Gershian Neiman leaves. Mark Rafe gets promoted into his spot. And it's kind of what you're saying. You're like, like one guy leaves and it gets replaced.

But then now you start to get more and more inexperienced people replacing them. But if you were Gersha Neiman and you were offered this role, And you're at Visma and you think, I don't know if it's going to get any better than this. That's frankly what I would be worried about. That's true. Yeah. I mean, listen, I'm not saying, I mean, listen, Niemann makes in his interest the best possible choice. You know, German company in it for in the long run, he has had a lot of success at Visma.

Visma is, you know, not renewing or, you know, they're not, they're in search of a new sponsor, as we all know. So for for near on a personal level, I think I think the choice. I mean, it's it's the chance of a lifetime for him. You know, so why not take it? You know, and obviously he's also going to have a better contract for sure. You know, I'm just saying that the decision being made on the higher level to put these people there is not the smartest one. It's not the smartest one. Yeah.

Yes. Because think of Richard Pluga. He's the president, GM. I'm CEO of Visma. He was not qualified. He just ended up with the team because nobody wanted it. And clearly he's done an amazing job. The thing, though, if you're Gershen-Neman, you probably trust your boss.

You'd say this guy is good at what he does. And you probably want to trust your boss. And it's like, nothing against it. I don't know, Andy Schleck. I've never met him. He's a great bike rider. What I feel, I just, I, that's the thing that I would think twice about if I was Gersian-Eman. I'd say if I stick close to Richard Pluga, it's probably going to be okay.

Now you go to Lidl, who knows, as you said, who knows what's been promised to Lidl. Yeah. I would find it a tough decision if I was him because you've had a lot of success. These men's maybe not renewing. Are we going to, what's going to happen to this team? Am I going to be out of a job in a year and a half? That wouldn't be that fun. So I guess he felt like he had to do it.

I can see why he did it. I could see why people would be upset about it. but it's it is definitely a messy situation yeah yeah i think the near mon situation is is you know it's i think it's understandable but i i think it would have been made made a lot more sense if it was in combination with lucca yes no yeah him coming in and having to do everything and then andy schleg without any experience having to be the the CEO we'll see maybe i'll have to swallow my words but and i will gladly do so if that's the case yeah when your CEO and your GM are brand new that's a lot harder than if it's Luca Gertralina overseen gersheneman that would be you think a better situation

vizma vizma has been losing a lot of guys like in addition they lost yonis fendigards coach to red bull i believe like he left the beginning of the year we found out a few weeks ago he went to red bull do you think that's just they don't have the financial firepower to compete with with these other teams. I mean, you know, people, people like to go for new adventures.

You know, the nutritionist is also leaving for a little track, nutritionist of Visma. The very longstanding trainer with, with Red Bull, also German, goes from Red Bull to Little Trek. So they're hiring a lot of people,

mostly Germans. So basically, if you're a successful German in the, in the world tour, they're coming for you, probably with a big contract, I would assume. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Did, well, now that I'm thinking about it, how did UnoX approach this? Because they have a very unique situation too where they're a Norwegian, Swedish, I guess, maybe they don't have any Swedish writers. But Danish, Norwegian team, they hire a lot of staff from those countries. Did they go out and poach people? Or did they just kind of find? I haven't.

I didn't know. Yeah. But that's a team that's been really successful. I have this. I don't know. This model doesn't, it's just from the outside. You're like, oh, boy, this is a lot of new people getting part away from different teams. I don't know how this is going to go. And as I just said, it is of still a, despite all of these, this movement is a very concentrated number of teams that are actually winning these biggest races. I'm curious to see if this catapult's little. Are they a super team now? I don't know. I'm curious to watch. That's for sure. we will see do you think philis call is going to go there i mean he's i didn't know he was out of contract um listen if if he if he has a chance i would take it you know it's going to be a great contract three-year deal probably uh money will be i mean it will be over his market value

but we need to check also we need to see if if if the level of felix gal is the if if if this second place in the Giro is maybe his maximum. You know, if I did some research, Spencer, because, you know, we're talking about little. We're also talking about Trek, you know. Trek has had teams. I assume they're still an important part of this team. I mean, they own 25% of it.

Yeah. So, so it's been since 2013 that Trek has won a grand tour. Now, Trek has won in total 14 grand tours. 13 of those was with this guy here with me. And then one was the year after I left with Chris Horner. So that you, yeah, so that's the only one that you were not involved. That's the only one. And I would even dare to say that, you know, I had a small part in the coaching role during that Velta of Chris Horner.

It's time for Trek to win another grand tour, guys. It's been 13 years. So, yeah. Well, that is a very good point because I had not realized it had been that long. You can imagine they're feeling a little restless that it's been a long time since they won. I ran tour. So Alberto Contador, he switched to specialized. Is that right?

Yeah. And then he wins in 2014, 2014 Vuelta on a specialized bike. Yeah. Well, he was on Saxo, Bark, or Tink. for yes yeah because he left Astana went to Saxo and then he started a crash and then he couldn't beat Chris Rheum but he was doing well otherwise anything else Johan before we take off no I think we've covered most of it so do you think tomorrow tomorrow the Giro women what what that brings it's going to be interesting yeah it is going to be interesting do you think Gersha Neiman not involved

at all with the team anymore? Like, is he just totally stonewalled? In Visma? Yeah, Visma. Yeah, I think, you know, once you make that decision, once you make an announcement, that it's game over, right? It's like, you know, you're, you're, they're probably going to send them to some races. I don't know, but he's not going to be involved in any decision making anymore, I think.

I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, you know. They have, they have enough stuff, you know, at Visma. Yeah, they can't have a plan for this, though. And then I guess, yeah, everybody, next man up, like everybody moves up a spot and you move on. But not ideal heading into the tour. But you know what we saw at the Velt or the Giro? If you're Jonas Findergarde, you probably doesn't matter, right?

Doesn't matter who's in the team car talking to. That guy is going to be pretty good no matter what. He needs to be a person who stays calm, who can, you know, transmit the message, the strategy. usually the strategy of these stages is always first in discussion with the leader. You know, let's do this, this, what do you think? And then you have to have a DS who kind of is able to relate that message before the stage and then during the stage to the riders.

It's not that difficult. We got to drive the car too, right? Well, I mean, nowadays they don't. I mean, nowadays the guys who do the top. or sitting in the driver seat in the passenger seat. That makes more sense, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Glad to see that someone had that idea. Like, hey, maybe we shouldn't have our coach, NFL coaches aren't driving a car down a mountain while they're doing it. It helps with your attention span. But thanks, Johan. And we'll be back next Friday to talk about that we didn't even mention this.

The dophinae starts on Sunday. So we'll be a few stages into the dofinae. It always starts a little bit slow. and then we'll be getting to the meat of it right when we have that next episode. So I'm looking forward to it. I think the first stage is a model stages. Is it really? I think so.

On Sunday, mountain stage. Hold on a second. That would be quite, I mean, I guess they changed the name. So anything's on the table. It is a pretty hard stage. The last climb is 8K at 7.5%. Do you know where is this? I don't know. I haven't checked.

Oh, wow. In Overn, Ronald. Well, I guess the problem was it was not in the dofinae anymore. And then they aren't making any money from that name. The third stage is a, so the first stage is a mountain stage. We'll see what happens. I'm curious to see what happens. Third stage is a time trial.

Four stage is a tough stage, maybe not a mountain stage technically. fifth stage. So Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So we will record right after stage six, which is a summit finish 6K at 7.5%. I'll probably know who the serious GC contender, if not the overall winner is by that point. So we'll talk about it.