THEMOVE - Will Remco Evenepoel's Training Crash Jeopardize His 2025 Season? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: December 5, 2024

Johan Bruyneel and Spencer Martin discuss how Remco Evenepoel's recent training could affect his 2025 season and where Tom Pidcock will end up in 2025 now that his exit from Ineos is official before answering a few listener questions. Zwift: This adjustability makes Zwift Ride perfect for anyone in the house to use and at $1,299.99 it’s a game-changer so head to https://Zwift.com now to check it out. Helix Sleep: Helix is offering up to 25% off all mattress orders for our listeners! Go to https://helixsleep.com/themove. This is their best offer yet and it won’t last long! With Helix, better sleep starts now.  

I am not worried that it's going to be basically compromise his season. He may probably start a few weeks later the season, but it will not have any impact, not for the classics and not for the tour. Everybody, welcome back to The Move plus our new weekly off-season show. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernil. We are discussing a few topics of the week. This week, we will get into Remco Evenepoel's crash and how that affects his 2025 goals,

as well as the never-ending Tom Pickock saga, the international nightmare we're all living through, where we just want this man to sign a contract with the team, but he's officially leaving Ineos. We don't know where he's going. We will get Johan's thought, Johan's thoughts on where that is. But first Johan, before we get into the episode, we want to talk about, about our title sponsor for the week, which is Zwift.

Zwift just released their Zwift ride, an all new smart bike that is changing the indoor game and making it easier and more affordable than ever to get started riding indoors you may know that it's hard to ride indoors not a lot of people like it but Zwift has changed that for all of us and now we can uh we can really crank out the miles inside during the winter and with the Zwift ride it like takes the experience of Zwift up to 100 it multiplies how great the product already is. And the bike is ultra quiet and super easy to set up. So you, and you just need one tool, the frame key to build it all out and make any adjustments to saddle height, bar height and reach, which means a bunch of people in the same house can ride the same bike. And it's easy to switch all the measurements.

And once you're done with the frame key, it slots right back into the magnetic holder in the frame. So you never lose it. The ultra quiet part also sneaky important because if you live in a smallish house or just the normal size house, no one wants to hear your loud trainer sessions. So that that's a reason to get it right there. You're asking, this must be a ton of money. This sounds like a great product. Well, it's only $1,299. That's $1,299. It's a game changer. So head to Zwift.com to check it out. And once you buy it, you can join our WeDo rides on Zwift, our WeDo Wednesdays and Suffer Sundays, which are running right now. Johan, have you been hitting up some of these WeDo Wednesdays. I've been delinquent, but I think you've been on there. Yeah, I did the, we do Wednesday last week.

This week I couldn't. And I actually started on the Zwift ride for the first time. As I said in our earlier podcast yesterday, my son used the Zwift ride for the first time. So we are using the same bike in this house. Adjustability is key, you know, just a little, little tweak. You can raise the seat. You can change the stem length easily. And he actually was super excited. He says he feels a big difference compared to the normal setup, which is the bike on a smart trainer.

He did a great session yesterday. So we're loving it. We're loving it in the house here. Yeah. And I mean, the adjustability, we can't go on enough about that. That's key. And it's not overly complicated. It's not one of these.

I've been looking at a piece of indoor equipment that is extremely heavy. So the fact that it's just a light, simple product, I've been looking at a piece of indoor equipment that is extremely heavy. So the fact that it's just a light, simple product, I could not endorse that enough. But Johan, our first topic of the day, Remco, I've been a pole riding in Belgium, I believe from his home question mark, um, hit a postal. This is actually freaky for anyone that rides a bike. I think about it all the time. I think a postal van opened his door and opened their door. And then Remco was, you know, let's say he was in the bike lane.

Sometimes like a door will go out into a bike lane, hits the door and fractured his hand, shoulder blade, and some ribs, and then had surgery immediately because his shoulder was dislocated. I think you have to fix the ligaments. If you don't do it, you can have complications later. He's out for the short term. Patrick Lefevre was kind of noncommittal on how long he's going to be out, his team manager. I heard potentially until February, but that's the maximum window.

I would guess he's back before then. Have you heard anything about this, Johan? Well, I only know what I've been reading, and especially I've been searching a little bit through the Belgian media. So, you know, we talked about security and safety on last week's show in races. But, you know, if you look at cycling, the biggest risks are actually when a cyclist is straining. You're on the road. Amongst traffic, Remco was, I would guess, he wasn't doing any specific intensity or efforts.

He was just riding in Belgium. For the people who, I mean, there's a lot of people who think, okay, Belgium and Holland, it's all bike lanes. It's not all bike lanes. There's also dangerous roads where it's risky and tricky. This must have been one of those situations. I would guess he wasn't going very fast because it was in a little village or a little city. But unfortunately, he was riding, probably passing a postcard that was stopped to deliver the mail. And, uh, the driver opened the door and he hit the door.

The first news of course, is always alarming, right? You see, okay, Remco. And then you saw the pictures, his bike was broken into, and there was a piece of carbon missing in the top tube. Um, that looks all spectacular. But I would say, given the circumstances, I think the injuries are, of course, it's always bad. It's not good if you crash and you break bones. But given the circumstances,

I think he may consider himself lucky that there are no severe injuries. When I say severe injuries, complicated fractures, right? So as far as I understand, the shoulder blade and the rib and the hand don't require surgery. So that means that it's a clean break or a fracture. And that the collarbone required some intervention to put it back into place. I don't expect it to be a big negative consequence in the long term, but of course it will derail his preparation for the season. He was actually just back now from, because we've seen on his social media that he was in the U S did a visit

that specialized and did some tests in the wind tunnel. Then he just got back. He went to Qatar, I think, or to Dubai. I don't remember for the formula one race just got back. So he started to ride his bike again, basically to get back into the rhythm and start the training progressively so he will have to delay that for a bit um i am not worried that it's gonna be basically um compromise his season he may probably start a few weeks later the season but it will not have any impact not for the classics and not for the tour. That's my prognostic.

Of course, I'm just going off what I've been reading, right? I'm not, I haven't seen any medical reports or, but usually these guys, it's amazing Spencer, how fast these guys recover. If it's not a complicated fracture break that requires surgery with pins and plates and especially the shoulder. I mean, let's not forget

Remco Evenepoel last year, this season, in the month of April, was involved in the crash in the Basque Country and broke his shoulder blade and his collarbone and had surgery. And look where he was in the Basque country and broke his shoulder blade and his collarbone and had surgery. And look where he was in the Tour de France. He was third and he was on a really good, good level. So, you know,

working back from that, it's the beginning of December now. So he can take December as a recovery month and then just basically crank it up. But I expect him to be, um, on at least on a static bike on Zwift, uh, within the next two or three weeks. That's, that's my guess. Um, he's probably not going to publish it, but these guys are amazing in terms of recovering fast and, you know, they're special people, you you know they have a strong will and as soon as he gets the as soon as he can turn his legs he's allowed to turn his legs even if he has to sit up he's going to be on the home trainer so all things considered I think

it's better that it happens now than later on, I'm quite confident that he's going to be as soon as the, his classic start, like he has, but only agent flesh for long that he's going to be okay. So I guess if we assume that he's back on the bike, let's just say next Monday, this, this Monday, it really doesn't, I guess you're well, okay. Let's say 12. I would actually wouldn't be shocked like some of these guys if you know if he had surgery early in the week like some of these guys are on the bike crazy fast but let's say say december 16th yeah probably doesn't affect the season at

all right like just a little break and then no he can he will he will be limited in terms of what he can do you know because he i saw he came back from the formula one and he went straight away on a beach beach training with with some teammates you know all that stuff he won't be able to do in the off season basically riding your bike and also have some fun yeah you'll have to be more focused on rehab, but, uh, it will not, um, I don't think it will impact his, uh, performance for next year. Um, you know, you always have to try to see a silver lining somewhere, you know, and, and sometimes these kinds of incidents have their, I'm going to say benefits, but their positive sides is that he doesn't have to worry now to get ready for the season.

No matter what he has time, he can, you know, he can build towards, because these guys want to, as soon as they want to race, they want to perform. Normally Remco starts in the Tour of Algarve usually, and straight away he wants to win. But that's obviously not going to be an objective now. He may be able to race the Tour of Algarve, but it should not be an objective to win but that's obviously not going to be an objective now he may be able to race the tour of algarve but it should not be an objective to win so it's his mindset that needs to change a bit but as soon as we're talking about april and and july um i'm not worried for ramco at all my big takeaway from this is does he live in belgium full-time

no like in the suburbs of brussels, no, no, no, no. No, it's not. It's not even Brussels. It's before Brussels. But, you know, you can train there perfectly. And I think he was basically using it to visit some family. He does live in Belgium, but he also has a house in the south of Spain. And so in the winter period, in the off season,

normally he's going to spend more time there. That's going to change now. So he's definitely not going to go earlier to, he's not going to go to Spain because he will focus. I have a pretty good idea of where he will go for his rehab. He has been there already. Let's not forget that the guy, you know, a part of the crash in the Basque country, he had this horror crash in tour of Lombardy a few years ago, uh, and had to come back from really far. Um, and, uh, and so he's going to focus on that rehab now with this. He

has a, he has a good contact there in, uh, in Belgium and he will spend a lot of time there. It's a guy he trusts and a guy who has brought him back already basically from the bottom. So he will definitely spend a lot of time there to get strong again and to recover. And do you think he's still going to target the Giro Tour? Have we heard any more on that? Obviously that changes now, right?

The first focus is now try to recover. And if you try to recover, Spencer, heard any more on that? Obviously that changes now, right? Uh, the first time, the first focus is now try to recover. And if you try to recover Spencer, a good, uh, a good advice is always don't put, don't forget about your goals, your, your sport goals. Don't try to focus. Okay. And say, okay, I have to, have to, have to, because I have to be ready for this. Take your time. I had never heard any confirmation about the Giro and Tour. By the way, the Giro, do we even know?

Yeah, I was going to say they have to have a route first before they can, yeah. We don't know where it starts, if it's in Italy or if it's in Albania. I mean, one of the... The plan initially was that it's in Albania. So I've now seen that they're going to announce the Giro on the 13th of January. So I guess it was planned to be Albania for quite a lot of money, I guess. And then finally, I think that there's some

trouble there and, uh, they're, they're looking at other options, still trying to get to Albania, but, um, so, but anyway, for Ramco, I think that's secondary now, unless, uh, the Giro is already pushing, pushing, pushing with a good contract for him to participate, then, you know, of course that would, uh, that would be another thing, but Hey, you could also see it in his case, for example, if he starts a bit slower in the season, he could use the Giro to get a lot of kilometers in and good intensity and to be ready for the tour. I also would think so. Albania was supposed to pay

7 million euros to have the Giro. There's all these reasons that potentially they're backing out. I kind of wonder if they're like, hey, that's a lot of money. Maybe we should do that. But if they don't have it in Albania, I don't know if Remco is getting that start fee. So that could be part of the reason that we haven't heard any confirmation on him showing up. I cannot imagine he would show up without a start

fee, right? Probably not. Especially now that it's common knowledge that the Giro has been, has been paying cycling superstars to, to participate on the contrary to the Vuelta and the tour. I'm going to guess that if it's interesting enough, then, then Remco would go. I'm not sure Spencer, even if they don't get the money from Albania, RCS have deep pockets and I've seen the numbers lately. It's a really good business. They make good money. They make a lot of money. You think probably not so much on their publishing,

but do you like the races turn a nice profit for them? Yeah, for sure. All right. That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that, but now you mentioned, I guess they are just kind of quietly.

They do have quite a bit of races and they're all pretty big races and they probably get good money from, from all those towns. Is it weird too? Did you hear about this? The Volta is starting in Italy next year. Is it, how does the, how does RCS feel about that? Like first you have the tour coming in. Now you have the Volta in every Euro they pay for those start finishes. It was like a Euro. They're not paying RCS for start finishes. I cannot imagine they're happy about that yeah well it's in turin no that it starts yeah it's in which is where i feel like weren't we just there for the giro this last year

didn't it start in turino arena i've said i've seen somewhere that turin would have had the start now of all the pre-ground tours uh after the after the vuelta because the tour started there also yes yes yeah it feels like a lot of money region to be paying i mean it must be worth it um but yeah um anyway going back to remco of course you know in belgium Belgium, it was a big shock. First reports are always a bit more drastic. But yeah, and I also saw that, you know, how it goes with social media nowadays. You know, it was an employee of the post office. And apparently she was, it was a woman. And she was in big shock.

There was a statement from the Belgian post office saying, they offered their assistance and their help in the, you know, to help the, the, the person who caused the accident, basically because it was an accident that was definitely not on purpose. And, and so I think that was really nice, you know, because he could have jumped on the brand on the bandwagon and say, Hey, you know, this driver didn't pay attention. They opened their door and now I'm here. And on the contrary, he, you know, he expressed his sympathies and, uh, and offered their, their full support.

So, uh, you know, it can happen. Accidents do happen. And unfortunately, uh, the biggest risk and the biggest danger for cyclists and professional cyclists is when they're out training, because then there's a lot of factors that they don't control and they're amongst traffic. And, uh, when they're in the bike race, you know, they're all my, they all have the same purpose. They all have the same skills and they know what they're going to do.

If you're, if you have to navigate the traffic, it's, it's a lot more dangerous. Yeah. And presumably, hopefully, it's a closed course when you're racing. Except Max Schachman, who got hit by a car at Lombardi and broke his collarbone. But usually, it's a closed course, which is much safer. No, it's super freaky because he potentially didn't even see a car moving. You just see all these cars parked and you hope that they're not going to open their door and even if you're

not going super fast you could not have enough time to react i hope that it doesn't affect i i don't know i guess we don't know we're not him but i do think there's a chance that he just kind of he might have to not win uh small like like small Southern Portuguese and Spanish races in 2025, but the goals past that are probably going to be on track. If everything goes well, I think next, next piece of news. Well,

let's take a quick break to talk about one of our sponsors and then we'll get into our next piece of news. Tom Pickcock, if you can just try to tidy this up for us here on, I feel like we've been talking about forever, forever, but we'll be right back. Everybody, this episode is brought to you by Helix Sleep. Helix offers 20 unique mattresses, including their award-winning Lux and Ultra Premium Elite Collections, the Helix Plus, which is a mattress designed for big and tall sleepers, and the Helix Kids mattress designed for growing bodies and endorsed by child sleep experts. If you have kids, you know that your kids sleeping

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That one is extremely important to me. I'm always hot when I'm sleeping. So that is what I'm loving the most. Helix is offering 25% off all mattress orders for our listeners. So go to helixsleep.com slash the move. That's helixsleep.com slash the move. This is their best offer yet, and it won't last long with Helix. Better sleep starts now. All right, Johan, so we heard that, I guess we should back up. A few weeks ago, Tom Pickcock was rumored

to be leaving Ineos, and then he's at the team camp. And then I actually can't remember, did they come out with a statement? Did they say anything about him staying or was it just presumed because he was at camp? I will say as soon as I saw him at Ruler Live and I saw the team of three Ineos employees there to watch him babysit him.

And then he basically said he's still unhappy with the team. It seemed like he could not race for them, that the relationship was damaged beyond repair. So from then I was expecting him to leave, but it's been announced now that he has officially left the team. His contract is no more. And then now the question is, where is he going? Yeah. Well, I mean, let's back up to the day before,

the two days before the Tour of Lombardy, Spencer, when we talked about him being deselected from the team and no apparent reason was given. Apparently he was on his way to the team hotel. He just finished second, I think in, was it Giro d'Emilia? The Pogacar one, he was second there. Was going to definitely be the leader of Ineos for the Tour of Lombardy. And then all of a sudden, sorry, you're not racing.

I think we said then, well, you and I that it was unimaginable that after this happened, that Pitcock would be able to stay or race for Ineos this season. And, you know, even if there has been signs that, yeah, okay, he went to the team camp, in my opinion, what happened was that, let's not forget, you know, Pitcock, I think he knows already from that moment that he was not allowed to race Lombardy. I'm out of here.

There's no way I'm racing for these guys. But he's a professional cyclist with a contract who earns a lot of money and wants to have his monthly check. So what I would think what happened is he just went to the team camp because it's his contractual obligation. So they didn't have any reason to say, okay, now you're done. Now we fire you. What's clear here that happened is that we've known for a while now that Ineos wants to cut costs. Radcliffe wants to spend less money and try either rebuild or basically shut down the team or sell the team, whatever, in the future.

And Pitcock was a big burden in the future. And Pitcock was a big burden in the budget. Pitcock has known, in my opinion, since that moment, if not before, that he didn't want to race for Ineos anymore, but he had to play the game because in order for Pitcock to keep his high salary, Ineos needed to come to an agreement with Pitcock and pay part of that salary, even if he's not on the team anymore. I think that was the reason why because he just went and said, hey, at least I'm not going to give them any reason to

terminate my contract and then I'm basically at the mercy of any other team who has a certain budget left but it's not going to be the budget that I've signed for that my contract is in in in a also it was just a contractual uh how they say that act of the presence like just uh he just

showed up because his contract obliged him to show up yeah that still takes me back to the i cannot understand this lombardia decision because as you say as soon as that happened soon as they pulled him, we all knew he could no longer race for the team. But the thing is, you know, who else knows that everybody else. So it's a little complicated to explain this, but I've seen a lot of confusion where people are saying, Oh, Ineos doesn't want to let Tom Pickock go. They should just let him go. It's like, well, that that's not true. Ineos and Tom Pickock want Tom Pickock to go.

Like they're both in agreement on that. The only sticking point is how much are we going to have to pay for you not to be on the team? So that's why this is taking a long time, because if he's making 5 million pounds a year, let's say Q36.5 isn't going to pay him that much. They're going to pay him some amount of it. And then Ineos has to make up the difference. He does not want his contract terminated. As you said, that's why he's checking the boxes and not letting them terminate the contract. The contract is gold. You know, it goes through what, 2027 for a lot of money every year. He's probably never going to sign another contract that big. He does not want that thing canceled. Ineos wants him gone. He wants to be gone. They just have to get a team to pay him the largest possible percentage of that amount so that Ineos wants him gone he wants to be gone they just have to get a team to pay him the largest

possible percentage of that amount so that Ineos doesn't have to pay multiple millions of pounds to not have a writer on the team if that makes sense because then they have to say well who can we sign to replace his output that is going to take us so we're not netting at zero you know they want to save money somehow, so they have to pay Tom not to be on the team, pay someone to be on the team, all for less than Tom's current salary. That's where this gets delicate.

But Johan, when they pulled him out of Lombardia, it just feels like they cut any leverage they had because you cannot go back and race for that team after that's done. And it kind of hurt their ability to bluff, if you know what I mean. Yeah, probably. I mean, I don't know. I really don't understand what the thinking behind that decision was for Lombardi. I can't understand it, but there must have been a reason or, you know,

or there must have been a serious miscommunication at the top management, but it made no sense. It made no sense. It really put, it really put Ineos in a bad light. And, and, you know, everybody started to question, Hey, do these guys know what they're doing? To me, it seems like they don't. You know, I think at the lower level, everything that's closely related to the cycling team, they do. But it's above the people who really, the board of directors, as they call it,

and we went into detail about that in another podcast. You know, there's not many people there that are close to cycling or understand the dynamics and the mentality of cycling. that in another podcast, you know, there's not many people there that are close to cycling or understand the dynamics and the mentality of cycling. So, um, it was a strange decision. Um, and I, I agree, they may have lost some leverage. Uh, finally they had to let him go and they had to pay. Um, and so we've always said Pitcock is in a good position. You know, if nobody, if nobody wants him, he stays at, uh, in AOS and they have the contractual obligation to pay him that much money.

And at the same time, you also have to think, uh, if you put yourself in the, in the head of that cyclist, in this case, Pitcock, do you really want to have all that money during those three remaining years and be in an environment that you don't like to be in? It's going to be a long three years. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, so listen, good for him. You know, now the question, the question is, and that's not been announced. Where is Pitcock going? Right.

I will stay with my initial prediction that it's going to be Q36.5. The, the, is it Swiss pay, the Swiss based protein? I think it's a great move for them. They do have the resources apparently to get Pitcock on board. It's a big name. It can help them with wildcards because

they don't have an automatic wildcard, not for the Giro, not for the Tour, not for the Vuelta, and not for any of the World Tour Classics. Automatic wildcards, meaning, you know, like Lotto and Israel have, right? Well, I think so. The one days have three auto wildcards. They have more.

I think they can go up to 25 teams. But I think like the top three second division teams all automatically get invited to every one day, but top two for Grand Tours. Yeah. Yeah. They're not even close. They're also and there's Tudor who has obviously made a lot of changes to the team and they're going to be in a priority position compared to Q36.5 in terms of wildcards for certain races. So adding Pitcock to the team would be a great thing, not just for the wildcards, but also for scoring points for the future to move up in the rankings and get one of those two spots in the pro team ranking.

So it's not been confirmed. I think, personally, I think the decision is made already, but at the same time, then you don't know what's happening now because Red Bull could be an option. Pitcock already has a contract with Red Bull, uh, at least for, I think at least for mountain biking and cyclocross, uh, on the road, he didn't race with the Red Bull helmet, but in cyclocross and on mountain biking. Yes.

Um, and, uh, so there's that link there already. Uh, and then who knows now, you know, we've talked've talked about uh astana who's now has a has a chinese funder with very deep pockets a bike brand um imagine all of a sudden these chinese guys say hey we want pitcock it doesn't matter how much it costs that it can come they can come in in the last minute and and write a big check for their bike brand for the, what's it called? XDS, uh, carbon. Uh, it would be amazing to have a rider like, uh, like Pitcock on their, on their bikes. Right. Um, and then on the, at the same time, you know, my, something is, is still not clear in my mind because let's not forget q36.5 they're on if i'm not mistaken they're on scott yeah but the owner of q36.5 the brand also is the

owner of pinarello so what will happen there will pinarello move to Q36.5? Maybe not next year, but maybe in the future. It could be a long-term vision also. Let's say that Pinarello sticks with INEOS for 2025 and for 2026 they move to Q36.5. it's the same owner so why not and Pitcock riding the mountain bikes anyway if he's on 236.5 he would be riding a Scott mountain bike

that's also obviously there's a lot of resources in the mountain bike with the Scott team you know Schurter on Scott he's going to retire after next season, I guess. So it's all connected. And Pitcock

is obviously a super interesting figure for all those brands. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of things there. So Q36.5 makes a lot of sense if only because well, Scott's a good brand for tom pickock that's a very quality bike across all disciplines um as you say nino schurter he's

he's had a little bit of success on scott i think pickock would would do all right the only thing about and i think the team needs them i mean what's the identity of that team it's just they're just kind of there and the thing is our product is actually really good like if you look at some of this q36.5 stuff up close and i'm not just trying to get him to send me q36.5 clothing but it is quite quite impressive they have a lot there to advertise but right now this is the rankings of second division teams lotto israel uno x so that's the three teams with auto invites to world tour one day races the top two lotto israel going to grand tours or they get an invite they don't have to go then below that fourth tutor fifth total energy sixth kahu wrote

rule all seventh q 36.5 so to have someone come in and score points and bring like a personality and give some shape to that brand is incredibly important for them let's just say he goes there what well okay before we do that I don't think Red Bull makes a lot of sense

other than the fact that he's currently sponsored by Red Bull like why think why is he leaving Ineos? Because he's hard to deal with and he has, well, he wants to do his own thing and he has his own entourage and he doesn't want to work in Grand Tours. How does that work at Red Bull?

You know, they've got a lot of good riders there. A lot of things they want to do outside of Pitcock. I think Astana would work in that respect. I don't know if he would. Yeah, I think you 36.5 in a way, especially after reading his comments, he said that he wants to focus on classics and one day races mainly. He's not that hungry for ground tours. He said he was going to go for the ground tours because they made him say it in his own words.

So Red Bull for his type of ambitions would make sense because he can do a lot in one day races for Red Bull. But that's a lot of money to pay someone that doesn't race grand tours. Yeah, I know Spencer, but listen, we're talking about Red Bull, man. They have money. It's the same for Radcliffe. It's the same for Q36.5. If you look at the financial resources of the owner,

maybe that makes not so much sense for the brand. But still, um, it's not, it's not a million or two more or less that these guys are gonna, they're not going to lose any sleep over it, you know? So, uh, but I guess to push back on that, isn't it any else losing sleep over it? Isn't that the whole reason why? Yeah, but it's not because they don't, they can't afford it. It's because Rathcliffe is fed up with the cycling team and spending the money. If he wants, he can.

I mean, the guy has very deep pockets, Radcliffe, right? I think he's the second richest guy in the UK. Yeah, and he's in cost cutting mode for reasons i don't fully understand but like they're cutting costs across that entire portfolio um astana would he write i think astana sporting in a sporting sense actually would make a lot of sense because he could do whatever he wanted again spencer i would if if tom pitcock is listening to me or anybody of his entourage, I know that some of these people listen to the podcast. Do not go to Astana.

It's not the right environment for you. It's not, you know, it can be a lot of money, and maybe in the future it changes with the Chinese backers now, but as long as it's this management currently it's not good it's not good uh what do you don't go there what do you want yeah that is a weird team i'm even outside of the issues that you've had with them if you remember like i remember like yana seal was this seat where it was like a battle between her and vinnie Kurov. And then they brought in Lopez again after he left. Um, but would he want to ride XDS the bike? That seems like a big swing. He has a lot riding on like those mountain bike, the quality of the mountain bikes. I mean, road bikes are so easy

to kind of get right now. I don't know if he would be willing to do that. I mean, I think, I think this company has a lot of resources and, uh, it would not be an issue. They can make the bike they want and they can make the bike he wants. Yeah. Let's when the first, um,

I think the first time, uh, when Pinarello didn't have a mountain bike, like yet, Pitcock was riding on a neutral bike on a, on a different bike. He was riding a BF. That's interesting.

Yeah. Yes, that's always an option. But let's say he goes to Q36.5, which I think makes sense if you start to form your mind around certain realities. But what does his schedule look like? Because they're not guaranteed

they'd be floating off wild cards, which I guess they'd have a better chance at if they had Tom Pickcock possible, they don't get invited to do a single grand tour, but, but does Tom Pickcock care about that? I mean, that's actually where this starts to make sense. I mean, the lighter the road schedule for him, not necessarily negative. Cause then he can focus on mountain bike more. Yeah.

I don't know, man. I mean, after hearing his interviews, he wants to focus on classics. The classics that are good for him, meaning Liege, Amstel, Fleche Wallonne,

maybe Midlands and Rainbow. They'll get an invite if Amstel, Fleche Wallonne, maybe. Midlands and Rainbow. They'll get an invite if Pitcock's at the start. They will get an invite. I mean, I think most of those classics, they already got an invite, but with Pitcock, they get an invite for sure.

Yeah, yeah. I'm like looking now, they're actually at a lot of races and you didn't notice them. Like they were at the Tour of Fland to a romandy to a switzerland milano torino yeah i guess they as you said they can invite 25 teams to one day races so if they have tom pickock they're probably getting invited to any one day they want only grand tour i could imagine is zero um which is talking's some of this Euro losing, potentially losing 7 million euros.

I mean, you don't have to confirm or deny this, but I heard that sometimes the Giro wildcard slots can be up for sale. So to speak, if you make a nice little donation, everything is for sale in Italy. I can, we can make it really nice podcast about some anecdotes i have from that uh

from that time yeah so that could be a different director then but it's still the same company rcs so yeah i mean you're not just making stuff up you do see some invitations that seem like they were purchased. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So that's always an option for them. If they have the money, throw some euros at the Giro. You're in the Giro. Probably would be a good race for Tom Pickock to stage hunting. I don't know if I are there. I'm just trying to think of examples.

Are there great one day riders who just don't race Grand Tours at all matthew vanderpoel kind of but he is out there racing he's just not focusing on them maybe like benoit cosnafra or something but yeah there are there are i mean you don't need to specifically race a ground tour to be good in the classics races, you can, yeah, it's possible. I think if Pitcock goes to Q36.5, I can see them in the Giro. I could see that too. And maybe that's what Tom Pitcock wants. Do we know if he's racing mountain bike next year?

I know there's some... He wants to. That's his favorite discipline. And it's unclear if he's racing cross this year. I'd assume that. I don't know. Maybe that's a decision he's making from a sporting perspective, just wanting to relax. But if his team situation's up in the air, maybe that makes it harder. We do know that his coach, Kurt Bogarts, it's a little bit of an odd situation. It's his personal

coach, but he's also an employee of INEOS, the team. He's not at training camp right now, INEOS training camp. So that would suggest that he's going with Pitcock to wherever he signs. Kurt Bogarts is definitely going where Pitcock goes. There's no doubt about that.

So if I had to guess, I'd say Q36.5, but as you say, there could always be an Astana, um, just like an Astana late bid that's super high. It's going to be interesting, Spencer. I think I personally, I think we're going to, I think they're kind of waiting a little bit. It's already decided where he's going to go, in my opinion. And that's basically also because I think the agreement had to be made with the new team and Ineos.

Ineos has agreed to a certain amount that they're going to pay on top of what this new team is going to pay. So I've read somewhere that in the month of December, Pitcock will do some races, some cyclocross races. So it's not impossible to imagine that he's going to show up at his first cyclocross in the colors of his new team. That would be quite the announcement. So let's just say he goes to Q36.5. One question I have, who's working for him at these classics? Or is he just counting on freelancing, like using his bike handling skill? Because it's not forget, Pitcock is still young. So I think the fact if Pitcock goes to Q36.5,

this is a longer term, longer vision. And so they're going to start to recruit next year already in function of him being a number of years on the team. So it's not a super strong team, but I think he'll have to necessarily support. It's not, you know, most of the races that Pitcock can focus on, it's also not races

that his team will have to carry the weight of the race. There's going to be other, there's going to be Pogacar, there's going to be Remco, there's going to be other teams who carry the weight

and he can kind of, you know, serve the favorites and then try to take advantage of it. In that case, you just need one or two guys with you, you know, but, and not even to, not even to set a tempo, but just to stay around you and bring, bring you in position. And they have plenty of guys who can do that. Yeah. I'd be curious to see, I guess it was kind of like, it's like remember Carlos Sastro

went to the Cervelo test team and I mean he had some success I guess maybe that's a bad example but we've seen it happen big riders I mean Peter Sagan went to Bora when they were a tiny team and he built that team and he had great years there so it's not impossible

I am curious to see what ends up happening here. And I wouldn't be shocked if they're on Pinarolos next year. I assume they have some sort of deal with Ineos that they have to see out. I think, I think that's, I think that's more difficult, Spencer. It's late in the season. Oh no. Like see them on, sorry, 2026. Cause they have to finish their contract with Ineos.

That could be an option yeah yeah well we have a few listener questions if you again if you want them read email them to info we do that team we are getting a lot so i i'm having to pick through them i cannot guarantee you that i will read them but just two easy ones this week johan um a few weeks ago we talked about tata pagacho's new contract i believe it was what 50 million euros over six years with a 200 million buyout clause someone dan emails in should tata have gotten more money based on his buyout clause it seems disproportionate 50 million euro contract versus 2 million euro buyout can you explain the thought process behind this yeah now the buyout is ridiculous 200 million i mean that's like okay

it makes no sense but at the same time it's a guarantee they're kind of putting you know they're kind of putting a value on the team right because uh yeah bogachar would say say okay i'm out um and somebody whatever i mean let's say the saudis come with a project for a team and they buy bogachar they're basically buying the whole team that's the 200 million uh but you know it's it's it's to put a number on there to make sure that, you know, he doesn't get any, any other thoughts, uh, at the same time, you know, at that kind of salary, there's nobody right now who can afford that, uh, unless it's somewhere Chinese or Saudis who come with a new project. I don't see that happening, but the buyout clause is definitely not in proportion to the,

to the salary. I guess on purpose though, right? Because they're trying to protect themselves from a Maxine Van Hills situation. So what if XDS just said 50 million, like, you know, because we talked about in the EU, it seems like you can just pay the amount of the contract and then you have the writer someone might pay 50 million probably won't

we've seen what kind of contract it is right is it is it is it a uae contract is it an italian contract is it a slovenian contract and then you have the law of that country that the contract is based upon. So the the contract of Van Gils it's because it's a Belgian contract and the law in Belgium is constructed that way. I don't know. I'm not a specialist enough, or I don't have the necessary information, but I don't think that it's, that all the countries are the same. If a listener deals, and I actually would like to know, like, do what, yeah. Would you teams try to do contracts in certain countries that are more

favorable to the teams? How would I, if that went to court, how would that be argued? Is it where Pogacar works, lives, where the team's based? Essentially, I think it's just playing it safe. Like they know that they don't want to lose him. And he's not going to look at that. The question you're asking yourself is Pogacar going to look at that buyout and say, that's too high. They should have said a billion. You know, the number could be anything as long as Pogacar is happy with the amount he's getting paid. You're just protecting yourself from like a potential legal battle exactly exactly but normally the contracts are uh subject to uh the country where the paying agent is based so in this case

in this case um i'm i'm not sure if it's UAE or it might actually be Switzerland. Yeah, it could be Swiss. It could be Mauro Giannetti's own company who's managing the UAE team. I'm not sure about that. Although, I'm going to say it's UAE law. So basically, you don't decide anything. It's them who decide. Yeah.

I'm quite curious about this. I'm going to try to figure out where their pain agent is. And I assume it's easier, probably easier to have it in Switzerland versus UAE. But I don't know. There's a whole world here we need to learn more about. So question number two, then we'll take off. There's a bit of an understatement from tim in virginia bagacar season is what it is um i spencer note right here you could say it's the best season of all time that is what it is but going back to the question

everyone forgets that jonas was riding at a high level early in the season he easily won at grand camino and torino adriatico he was up there in the best country before the crash, taking away the crash and injuries. He would have come into the tour primed with a healthy wild and set. The tour might've looked a little different. It would have, could have, but if Jonas defends the tour,

does that take some of the shine off Taddei season? And are we talking about Jonas's great season? I picked this question because I do think it's interesting. If Pagacar has the season, he, like one of the best of all time, let's say he still has, let's say he has 24 wins instead of 25, doesn't win the tour. Jonas wins the tour for the third year in a row. Pogacar loses the tour for the third year in a row.

Obviously that's a successful season, but yeah, that probably that does change it fundamentally. Like would we think about it as this great season? No, it'd be a failure, I guess, because I mean, the tour is so much above everything else. And, uh, especially for those guys who have reached that level of having won the tour now, three times, Jonas two times, anything but winning the tour is not a success. From now these guys, they have to win the tour,

otherwise it's not a successful season. So even if Pogacar would have won all the races, but lost the tour, we would have said, yeah, you know, but he didn't win the tour. So he's done for the tour. And it's, that's the disadvantage of the importance of the tour to France. It's, it's a monster compared to any other race. It overshadows everything. And so, um, now of course, watch our season has been amazing. Uh, the best ever, I agree, in history of cycling, especially also the way he won all those races, right? But yeah, take the Tour away and you're talking, oh, you know, he's amazing. He's number one.

He would still be number one in the rankings, but he didn't win the Tour. And it's the third time in a row he doesn't win a Tour, so he can't win the Tour anymore. That would be the reasoning behind it. Yeah, that's exactly what we would be saying, that he cannot win the Tour anymore. He shouldn't reasoning behind yeah that's exactly what we would be saying that he cannot win the tour anymore he shouldn't even try he should give up it's it's quite an interesting hypothetical because obviously the crash happened you can't change it but it i i

don't know maybe pagacha would have won anyway he might have been on unbeatable on the form he was on this season but vindigo looked good, even having had that disruption, that I don't think it's a slam dunk. I do think it's a close race. I don't think so. This Pogacar would not have lost the Tour de France, even against Jonas without the crash. It's amazing how good Jonas was after after this this accident but the numbers

speak for themselves he himself and their his trainer or his team director has said this is the best performance ever of Jonas Vingegaard in on Plateau de Bay, for example, and in some other mountain stages. He did fade away a little bit in the last week. But, you know, he didn't have the necessary base and probably also mentally he had accepted his defeat. So, but it would have been closer, but Tadej would have won the tour, even with Jonas with a perfect season. In my opinion, this was, this was a different level.

We didn't get talked about because it was such a blowout. Kind of an interesting dynamic of that tour is the last, let's say what the last 10 K of the race were a technical downhill in pagachar's backyard basically and i mean this could be that jonas was just playing it safe but he lost a ton of time on that descent it's kind of interesting to think if the race is close is that what makes the difference like the descent down and the niece from coldez that pagachar definitely knows better than vindigo but yeah unfortunately i didn't really get to i mean it's it's it's it's also i mean downhill is also very very subjective you know it depends on which zone you're in uh i remember 2023 uh today was not that good in the downhills

jonas was a lot better in the downhills, uh, on certain mountain stages. Um, but they also had lost a bit of confidence. I think with the crash in Liège same happened with, with Jonas. Um, but I don't think they're that different. Um, they both, they're both great bike handlers, uh, little advantage in my opinion for Pogacar. He's, he's more of a, an artist on the bike. Jonas is more like, okay, he handled the bike. Well, goes downhill sometimes really well, but doesn't seem like he is. So how do you, what do you call like an artist on the bike? Right. So Pogacar does, it does everything more like it's more like natural. Um, but I don't think

there's not a huge difference there in the downhills if you look at the downhill Jonas did in the time trial he won in Solange that was pretty impressive

that downhill and let's not forget the year before when he went in the last time trial that basically slowed down to let Walt win the time trial. He went down there also really, really fast, almost missed the turn, but kept it upright. So he's good in the downhills, Jonas, also. He has like certain moods where he flies downhill. And you think, dude, I think it was at Gran Camino this year.

It was like wet descents and he was going so fast, like so fast. He can't turn it off. There's just like some internal motor there. Obviously, it's the same thing as Pogacar, as you said the year before. Not quite the same on the downhills, probably because of lost confidence, confidence, and then zone issues. But that's all we have for this week. Johan, do you want to add anything before we take off?

Nope. That's it. Just stay tuned for our next show. Trace and transfers. It's going to be in a couple of weeks, but we're going to announce the day pretty soon. It's going to be Lance and George and I to talk about the major transfers. Obviously, we're going to talk about Pitcock quite a bit. Hopefully, by then, we'll know his destination. But we'll have given an overview of all the important changes in team structures on our next show. Yeah, hopefully we know.

I have a feeling we'll know where he's going by then. We will know. We will know for sure. Well, thanks, Johan. And we will talk next week on our weekly show. Thanks. Bye.