THEMOVE - Will UAE's Recent Crashes Derail Their Tour Campaign, and Do Picnic's Financial Troubles Threaten the Team's Future? | THEMOVE+

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

Spencer Martin and Johan Bruyneel break down the latest racing action from around the globe, including how Jay Vine's broken wrist reshapes the rest of his season and what a string of high-profile crashes at UAE could mean for the team's Tour de France lineup. They also discuss Unibet's Tour snub and why Caja Rural was selected instead, what Picnic–PostNL's financial issues signal for the team's future, Jonas Vingegaard's recent crash, and wrap up with listener questions. Become a WEDŪ Member Today to Unlock VIP Access & Benefits: https://access.wedu.team  

It's logical. I think Kacharural is the first available team in the ranking. So based on that, I think ASO made the logical choice. And I assume they're going to go to the Giro with Dylan Gronovagin now, which when they signed GronoVagan, I thought, well, they must be going to the tour. They must know. And he could maybe win a tour stage. But I think he is a much better chance of winning a Gero stage.

These Giro sprints are a lot softer than tour sprints, especially if your team is not the best, competing against the best leadouts in the world at the tour. Yeah. The Giro is different. I mean, he could realistically win a Giro stage, which would be massive for that team.

That would make their season. Everybody, welcome back to the Move Plus. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with the Johan Burneal. We are going through the last week of cycling news. The season started, kicked off. It started, Johan, and the races are coming thick and fast. We've got J. Vine won the tour down under,

but that feels and Broca's wrist in the process. That feels like a lifetime ago. We have the Saudi tour going on, multiple races in Valenciana. The Mayorkan challenge Majorca races going on. We will try to recap the highlights of those as much as we can. A little bit of news on Twitter, France wildcards. Pitnick Personnel may be in financial trouble,

as well as Jonas Finnegard crashing during training. But Johan, take it back all the way back to the Tour down under. If you can remember that J Vine wins. After we did our last show, the corkscrew climb had already happened. We predicted Willunga Hill was announced as not happening. We predicted Jay Vine would win easily. I would say the big thing we didn't see coming is that Jonathan Narvaeus, his teammate, would crash on. It was probably only two hours after we finished recording last week.

And seriously hurt his back. Seems to be out for quite a long time. So he did not get second. J Vine won by a massive margin over, I believe, Marlischmidt, with Harry Sweeney getting a surprise third place. I looked it up. It was the biggest margin of victory at the tour down under in 19 years. So a pretty good result for J. Vine.

Not the outcome he was looking for, holistically, I assume, because he hit a kangaroo on the final stage, finishing stage impressively, and then found out he had a broken wrist. But what were your thoughts on J. Vine winning that race? Yeah, I mean, I just found out, actually just a few hours ago, Spencer, that Jay Vine broke his wrist, I didn't know. Yeah, obviously, we expected him to win, you know, after that demonstration on corkscrew.

Yeah, you see, you, he seems to, you know, they seem to be in great shape, but they seem to have a lot of bad luck because Narvaise crashed hard. He was not the only one to crash. I think there's another rider out with an injury or a fracture. even. It was multiple riders. Yep, from that race that they lost during the race. Three guys, three guys.

And then Jay Vine. I mean, yeah, it's down under. But man, I think this is a first, right? In a race hit by a kangaroo. That's like, yeah, that's pretty unique. It was actually on camera. There was two kangaroos basically jumping in the peloton. These, I mean, this is not like a dog.

You know, these animals are massive. They're big. They're powerful, too. Yeah. I know, Jay Vine. It's not that they come running to the peloton. They jump. They come from, you know, above you.

Yeah. And it was panic. Unfortunately, Jay Vine crashed, made it to the finish. One, two down under. I think, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I saw an interview from him after the race. He didn't seem to mention anything. He didn't mention anything at all.

His wrist. And so finally, yeah, a fracture. I'm going to guess it's not, it's not a huge. huge injury, but it required surgery. So it's better to, you know, obviously it's a shame for Jay Vine because he obviously started the season in great form. I'm going to guess he was, his ambition was to build up on that in the early races in the season to have a few more results.

Now we'll see. We'll see what it does. I mean, a wrist, it's not great. You can't hold your handlebars. Then again, you know, if we look back. a few weeks ago, Walt Vonnard broke his ankle, had surgery. And so this is a new generation, right? New generation of athletes, they're back, they're back straight away.

Fortunately, fortunately nowadays, there's a lot of technology to ride indoor, different platforms where it's basically, you know, you can simulate training nowadays. So he's not going to lose a lot of condition. He may lose some races. obviously if you have a broken wrist you need a few weeks three four weeks to heal right so yeah that's definitely going to be against uh you know against his ambitions what j vine had at the beginning of the season but still um the first big race the first world two race if you win that it's already i mean especially in him as an australian rider to win that race was was on his

I think I guess it was marked and read in his objectives list. So, but yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I don't know UAE, they do have a lot of writers because I saw in Alula also some crashes of UAE writers. It is, of course, listen, it's bad luck. You know, you can't do anything against it. I mean, there's nothing you can do if a kangaroo all of a sudden comes out of the sky. I mean, sort of speaking, there's not much you can do, right? But yeah, it shows that, you know, it's a very dominant team. They started in amazing fashion, you know, dominating the first big stage race, I would say.

And, you know, it can be all over in a second. So that's why we need to, you know, we need to comment on these shows and take it week by week. You can't look too far ahead, you know. Well, yeah, unless they start introducing kangaroos to France, It's still It's But gotcha was Maybe going to win that

Do you know how many riders UA finished Had finished The Tourdown under This is crazy Three riders Holy smokes Jonathan Narvaeus

Mikulberg Stock Langet Sorry the way They put these names It's Stock Vingen Langan Also DNFed

And Juan Sebastian Sivinin stock Langan Juan Sebastian Milano All DNF So they had three Riders finish One of those riders had a broken wrist

that is a bit of bad luck also these races have been crazy hectic um you mentioned the crash at saudi tour you know it was like a 106 kilometer you know these descents these big desert descents they're just these wide open roads you can go so fast on them and you think wow i hope i don't crash on this and there was a crash yeah it is bad luck they also we should say they're having bad luck some crashes they also lead the world they lead the sport and wins so far this year um in ucii points and j vine has more pro wins than any other rider in 2026 so far. So still off to a pretty good start, you'd say. Yeah, and they obviously have a great roster of riders.

But they will have to reinvent their schedule a bit because those four riders who didn't finish, I don't know which other rider had also an injury or broken bones. They're all pretty important riders. Yeah. That is the problem. You need to shuffle around a little bit. But anyways, they have a very deep roster. So maybe they're going to have to start one or the races with six riders or something.

But ultimately, I think they're going to be fine. I have a piece, hopefully, coming out later today, that it goes through the points lost and gained each offseason. And for the second straight offseason, UIE has lost, like, more. more points than almost any team, and they still project to be the best team this year by a massive margin. So they can seeming, like, what's weird is every off season they're getting worse, because they're shipping out great riders, and they still continue to get better because the riders they have step up and improve. So they'll probably be okay. They also, they also, they have a great development program. Yeah.

I've even heard that they're looking at starting a junior team also, or at least a collaboration with a proper junior team. So it's always the question, right? I mean, if you're part of such a great team, it's normal that some riders who reach a certain level leave to other teams to either have a more protected role. Salary-wise, I don't think, you know, salary-wise, I think it's hard to compete. beat with UAE, but still. But then it's to be seen how these riders perform. You know, once they're in another role and have responsibility and stress and they need to deliver, you know, I've seen riders leave there and in many teams, which this is the

case where you're on a star-studded team and guys leave. Sometimes it's basically at the end of their career just for, you know, another or the last big contract that sometimes happens. but I'm not worried for UAE at all. I mean, even if they have lost points, points wise, they're going to make up for it.

Yeah. I mean, I would say Navarre is, I mean, is he even going to race this year? He has broken vertebrae. We don't know. Does he?

He is. Yeah, pretty important writer for that team. If you think about the tour last year, yeah, he was key. So, like,

his loss is a big deal. Vine will recover. He's slated to do the Giro to tell you. I think my my crazy big brain thought is this is actually good for his Euro because it focuses now him now to re-peak for the zero put money on it right now Jay Vine wins the J-Vine wins the year to tell you someone messaged me and they're like he's good but does he have the killer instinct to win like he's the he has more wins than anyone else this year he's pretty good at winning better than a lot of other writers but yeah I'm kind

of joking there but I do think J-Vine could have a good Giro though partly because now he has to focus on it because he can't race for a while. I stepping away from the Tour Down Under. I mean, I don't want to gloss over this. That Narvaeus injury is a big deal for them. But think about someone like Brandon McNulty. That guy wasn't in the tour team for years. They can just pull them off the Benstrom and the Tour de France.

So they do have some options that other teams. They have many options. Yeah. Look, even last year, Spencer, Narvice was, I think, in two occasions, like the last guy to set up Bogacha, right? Yeah, like in key moments. But it's normally not his role.

I mean, he stepped up because they lost Almeida. Ammaida was supposed to be that guy. So he stepped up. Narvaise has never done that before. In the high mountains, he's never been there at the last man. He knew he had to step up. He did it. So, I mean, if the roster is normally the way it should be,

Narvaise would probably be the fourth last guy. There's probably two other guys and then Pogacar. Of course, there will be, there will be, Del Toro. I guess Almeida's not doing the tour, no? No, no. They still have Adam Yates. I mean, they have many other writers.

Jan Christen, I don't know, Jan Christen's probably not a tour of France rider, or at least not with Pogacar in the team. is probably not enough domestic for that in mentality. But they have many guys who can do that. Yeah, I think they'll manage. Don't weep for UAE. They'll be fine.

The Saudi tour is underway. I would say it's the Saudi Alula Tour. So I would imagine it's happening in Alula Tour. The region of Alula looks incredible. We're not getting paid. We're not getting paid by Alula to say this. I was stunned by the scenery. It is more impressive than I thought.

This justifies why you do a bike race in a region like this, because I wouldn't know it existed. But Jonathan Milan wins the first two stages. The first stage was incredibly hard. Broken up. It was echelons, like a kind of a breakaway, kind of two pelotones, but stays away, wins the first stage. Milan wins the second stage.

I'm going to be unbeatable in all the sprints. Summit finish on stage three, where Janis Vassard wins from Tudor, a 27-year-old Swiss writer who I don't think I'd ever heard of. But it was an impressive summit finish when you said he's 56 kilos, which explains why he was so good on that summit finish. But then today, stage four in the bunch sprint, I thought Milan was a shoe in.

But Mateo Marlucci wins on XDS Astana. Like it was a really, Milan kind of had a, It was a little bit of a bumpy. He had to move around quite a bit, but he had a clean line to that finish. And Mateo just came right out of a slipstream and won the stage. Really impressive win from him. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that was a nice win. I mean, I think I think you're right. I mean, I couldn't see exactly what the wind was doing, but the wind obviously plays a big role there on those finish stretches. You know, I think it's very strange way of racing in Alula Tour. you look, you know, there's a lot of straight roads. And then you see these riders now and then getting off all the time. Like the asphalt is like a bit higher than you have sand on the side.

You see them constantly go off and on the on the road. It's dangerous. And they're lucky it's not a big peloton. You know, it's not a huge peloton. I think there's like 115 riders of which, you know, there's some, there's some continental. teams, not even pro teams. So these guys are obviously in the final of the race. They're just hanging

on for dear life and it's a battle between 40, 50 riders. But still, it looks dangerous. And yeah, I mean, we also, that crash Spencer two days ago on that downhill, as you said, 106 kilometers per hour.

That was scary. I mean, we've seen those that UAE guy from the development team. I forgot his name. I think it an Italian guy. Yeah. No, yeah, his, he had no skin left on his products. Yeah. I mean, imagine going down at 100k an hour.

No. And, and then there was, there's a Belgian guy, Lawrence Rex, I think, Lawrence, Lawrence Rex from Sudal Quickstep. He has three broken vertebra. From that crash. So, you know, it's a high-paced, high price to pay, to, you know, for a race like this. But and also Spencer, what I really want to point out is that the really great start and amazing presence of our new American team, modern adventure, you know, I mean, they're starting in this race. It's their first race, I guess.

I don't know if they did another other race. I think it's their very first race, which is a hard race to have to be a first race. They are very, very proactive. They take initiative. They're a few times in the top 10. I guess today they had a guy in the top 10, American guy. Not American. Well, I guess technically American, North American, Riley Pickerel, who is Canadian.

Oh, he's Canadian. Okay. And really good, Ryan. I was actually surprised they got him from Israel Premier Tech. I didn't understand why they didn't renew his contract, but really good pickup and pays off already. Yeah, yeah. But especially the visibility of the team, I think, is the takeaway.

Yeah. They're present. They're in the front. They're taking initiative. So, yeah, that's really nice to see. And also the organizers must be very pro-modern adventure because they got a nice invite for the tour of Catalonia, which is a big World Tour race. In Catalonia, I think they have some kind of a base in Gerona, I think.

that would make sense to have them there. That's obviously a bigger race, a high-level race, and it's going to be a bit different in terms of results. But great start for the team, man. I have to say, it's nice to see. It is really good to see. Yeah, they're very visible. The bikes look great, those factors.

Yeah. Which crazy is I was thinking, that's the only team with factor bikes this year. So this is really super aerobiles. bike they're on and then they're the only one that has it. So it's kind of an interesting. The factors also sponsoring the women's theme human power to help, I think. Oh, interesting. I didn't realize that. Yeah, I think so. We won't we won't get into, uh, we we won't get into, uh, like today's,

today's news of factors, sponsorship changes for 2026, but they have like very drastically change their sponsor situation. I think they had David Miller come in and take over marketing. So making changes there. Yeah, kind of an interesting decision, but curious to see, it seems like they're streamlining things.

And as we'll get into later in the show, a lot of pressure on the bike industry, a lot of financial pressure, which could explain some of the changes we've seen. So also, there's just a lot of racing that's been going on. There was two races in, near the Costa Blanca,

maybe on the Costa Blanca in Spain last week in Michael Matthews wins the first one and then there was the Classica Communicat Valenciana where if you start to look closely at these routes it left right in front

of like a lot of team hotels before their training camps so you're like okay I see what's going on here and then Dylan Grotenevegan wins the significance of that other than Dylan Grunovigin being happy that he won a race that he's on Unabet Rose Rockets.

So I believe it was the first race of their season. They're like new and improved Unabet Rose Rockets. No, they were. If the race of Michael Matthews was the first one, then... I guess, yeah, they must have been there. They were there. Yeah, it was their second race. But anyway, great way to start the season, you know?

Great way, yeah. And also for New York, and it's been a while since he won, I guess. And then for him to... win on that new team for their confidence and for the the team's confidence in grunewagan it's it's great if you can straight away deliver you know because it's uh i mean it was a star signing and it's it's not a cheap contract and so i guess you know both grunovig and the team must be extremely happy with that win and the big news that came out i saw it yesterday in a french paper that they're not i thought they were all lock for the tour they're apparently not going to the tour

Kahul Rawls going instead. Let's leave that. Let's talk about Majorca really quick, and then we're going to come back to that. I have some thoughts. You're going to explain to us why this happened. I have some thoughts why that actually could be good for them to not go to the tour. But there's the challenge Mayurka going on. Challenge Majorca is a little confusing because it's a stage race.

It's happening every day. You do not have to. It's not really a stage race, though. You do not have to compete every day. Is that correct, Johan? You can pick your shoes. It's been like this for a very long time. I remember back in my days when I was riding at Onse week, it was five days.

And we were there with the whole team. We had our training camp like a week before. And then some guys did three races. I mean, I have a picture somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. I think we raced like with 20 guys one stage. The whole team could race. You know, so.

Oh, wow. That's kind of cool. Back then it was training races. and there's no GC. There's no GC. Every day, it's start. There's no time. It's not long time, right?

So you can skip a race. You know, nowadays, they also use these races to have riders on the development teams, join the World Tour teams or the pro teams. For example, I saw Lorenzo Finn. He was the world champion under 23. And he was the world champion juniors. In his first race, he straightly, way he wrote with the pros in the team time trial yesterday.

No. Yeah. Interesting. And so it's a bunch of one-day races. And it's a nice system. I think it's a nice system. It's very, you know, it's a great opportunity to try out different riders during the five days. And the big, the thing that stuck out to me most from this, well, Antonio Morgato, I believe that's his first name. One stage.

It looks great. That's the guy that I think is really good. Another guy in UAE that they seem to have just developed. We talked about him, I think, two years ago on the up-and-comer show, I think. Yeah. We have an uppercumming show on Monday. We should talk about him again. Yeah.

He's going to be good. But they had. More. I mean, I'm checking his age. He's only 22. That's crazy. You know, he got in 2024, he was top 10 at Fl. Lander's fifth at Flanders.

So he would have been, I think he was not, I don't even know if he was, was he 20 or 19 at the time. Yeah. Well, we'd have to check. Still super impressive. But he went to stage. And then there's a team time trial on. It's that all these stages have names like Trafeo Cessalines was the team time trial. I thought, well, UA, UA is going to be a shoe in for this.

but the significance of this is there's a team time trial first stage of the Tour de France. So what a lot of teams did like Red Bull is they brought Remko Evanapult and Florian Lipowitz who are going to both be on the Tour de France team probably to have them just try out. You know, it's important to get reps team time trialing together. They win the stage.

Movistars second kind of a surprising result. Jacob Alula, the third, UAE, fourth. And then Remko wakes up today, says, I want to maybe win another race and he just, it was pretty impressive. It was a hilly, like, mountainous stage. He just rode away from a group that included Morgado. And, but he crested the coldest soler.

And it was like 50K to the finish. And he just kept piling on. It was like a two minute gap by the finish line by himself. Pretty impressive result. Yeah. I mean, it was all planned like this, obviously, because they did the cold, the soyer from the backs, I mean, from the long side, from Sawyer, coming from Soya. Like from the ocean.

Big, from the big road. And then, you know, you have a bunch of switchbacks and Red Bull was setting it up. Remko just attacked and just, you know, rode away from everybody. It shows that, first of all, he's in great shape. I think, I think for Remko, this is a dream start, you know, the first two races, two wins on his new team. This is great for the team, you know, riders and staff to, you know, okay, say, okay, we have this new star rider. He shows up, races twice, wins twice.

This is the dream start, right? Of course, you know, it's a challenge of Majorca. It's not, I mean, the whole Peloton is not there. But still, it's a win. Win is a win. Winning is difficult. And the way, especially the way he wrote today was quite impressive. I mean, those climbs, obviously in Majorca,

or like the ideal terrain for Ramco. They're not super steep. They're rolling. You can high speeds. To me, it looked like, obviously, listen, he was, he was, he went all out. But it looked like he was on a training, right? Obviously, he was not. But, you know, he did.

I think, I think he's, he's very happy with his start at Red Bull. I mean, what else can you wish for? You know, I mean, there's a lot of talk in the offseason about this transfer. You know, a lot of people around him. this team of super experts, scientists that he was supposedly lacking at Sudol Quicksstep. They're all behind him. I was surprised, actually. I mean, it's, I mean, listen, it's a bit ridiculous in my opinion.

But that's what happens when you have these resources. But if you see, Remko arrives, I don't know how many staff people have counted. I mean, there's, there was guys there. There was guys there who was, you know, from the staff and there was no time. There was so many people. There was no time for some of them to congratulate him because there was just no space. There's so many people around them, you know? That's definitely a new trend to a lot of these teams.

It's an arms raise for staff. How much staff can you hire? Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, listen, it seems to work there. So off to a great start. So that's that. You know, I mean, it's, it's better than starting on the wrong foot and having to catch up with, you know, your form or your race strategy or whatever is not on point.

They seem to be on point with everything. So that's, that's obviously, you know, a great thought for him and them. Yeah, it's big for Remco. And it's maybe even bigger for Red Bull Bora because this was a big swing they took. And it's starting off as because it's also a home race for them kind of. Like, they are. I think they are the only world tour team that kept, stayed loyal to Mallorca.

There's been, there's been years where there was a lot of teams. And I think they're probably the only one who stays there. They did all their training camps there. So, so yeah, they know a whole road. That's for sure. Yeah. So let's take a quick break for some to hear from some partners. And then we'll get into, I want you to explain to me why. Unibet Rose Rockets is not going to the tour, why Kahoo Rawls going instead, and we're going to get

into some financial issues at Picnic Post-N-L and across the bike industry in general. Okay, Johan, so I was shocked to see this news that I thought Unabet was a just a shoe-in for the tour because I was looking at the rankings. I thought, well, the tour is not going to invite a Spanish pro-conti team because I don't even know if I ever remember that happening, but no, they're not. They're not going. Kahoo Raw is going instead. But because of the way the Vuelta sets up their wild cards,

there's three, essentially, there used to be, I guess, four. But now there's three viable second division Spanish teams that can go to a grand tour as a wild card team. That's Kahou Rol, Burgos BH, and Equipo Kern Farma. The Valta only gets two invites every year. So they invite two of those three, one gets left out. So for the Vuelta this year, it's going to be, Burk Corgo Canfama

Yeah and Burgos So Kahural is not going to the Vuelta That left them with If they want to do a grand tour They can do the Giro or the Tour I thought they were going to go to the Gero No, the tour invites them instead of Unibet

I guess Tetima Rose Rockets is what they're called now And now Unibet's going to the Gero Instead as the Wildcart team Why is this happening? Well as you said Spencer there's this, I mean, there seems to be this rotation in Spain. So Burgos and Canfarmah were not invited last year because Kacharural went.

And I'm thinking that Huskal also was there last year. Yeah, I remember them there. But then now I look at the rankings and you have to be in the top 30. Exactly. I invited to a grand tour and they're not in the top 30. Yeah. So they're out already. Anyway, they were going to be out anyways.

Even within the top 30, they were going to be out anyways because they had their spot last year. I mean, listen, they left Cairn Farma out last year. And the year before, they had won three stages in the world. Yeah. So that's the system. So already, Cajarulal was not going to be at the Vuelta. The Vuelta and the tour are owned by the same company, right? It's ASO.

So the fact that Kacharural is not at the Vuelta is an advantage. But the main reason is very simple, Spencer, if out from the top of my head, I think in the rankings, their 25th team. Archaea is out and Intermarche is out. So they're 23rd. So they are the first team of all the wild cards, a part of the automatic wild cards. also the tour starts in Spain in Barcelona Cacharural is a it's a team with a lot of history

they're around for a very long time the company Cajarural is a very powerful company in Spain it's a bank with all of history also probably some political power some you know there's been some lobbying behind the scenes for sure so I'm not surprised I think it's

it's the logical straightforward choice. It's the first team that was available for all the wild cards. And then, yeah, I mean, I think everybody got caught up a bit in the hype of the Rockets, Rose Rockets or whatever. What are they called now? The Rose Rockets. And they have a very, for people that don't know, they have a very active and popular YouTube channel, which is how they funded the team for a long time.

Initially, yeah. So I think that's a bit the unhappiness with the fans and social media because it is a very popular team. But then I saw one of the directors of ASO saying that on top of that, they made a strategic decision, I think, two years ago to actually register as a French team. It's a French team, you know, but Rose Rock. It's like French license. but the identity is not French. The identity is a Dutch team, right? And I look this up.

Legally, you can't be a Dutch team and have a gambling sponsor. So that's also part of the reason they changed to France. Okay. Okay. But so, yeah. I think the hype was, okay, let's have the rockets to the Tour of France. But I'm not surprised, man. I'm not surprised.

Listen, obviously, listen, hats off for what these guys. are doing, right? They started from everybody was saying, are these guys going to start a team? And three years after, they are in contention for it to the France spot, which is already amazing on itself. Now they don't get it, but

they did some really nice signings. They signed Grunovig and they signed Walt Pouls. They signed Victor Lafay. Both of those guys won tour stages fairly recently. All three of those guys. Three of them. Yeah. Three of them. Yeah.

But, yeah, I think it's just they're going to have to wait for another one or two years. And I think they took it really they took it really in a nice way. Obviously, they're super disappointed. Everybody wants to be at the Tour de France. But honestly, I think

another year or another two years would probably be better for them to consolidate, consolidate team more and have a deeper team still to go to the Tour de France. And they're going to get there. eventually if they if they stay around and there's no reason to think why they wouldn't stay around.

So it's just yeah, they're going to have to be in a waiting room for another year at least. But I think I think it's logical. I think Kacharural is the first available team in the ranking. So based on that, I think ASO made the logical choice. I and I assume they're going to go to the Jero with Dylan Gronevagan now, which, when they signed Grenovese and I thought well they must be going to the tour they must know and he could maybe win a tour stage

but I think he is a much better chance of winning a Giro stage these Giro sprints are a lot softer than tour sprints especially if your team is not the best competing against the best leadouts in the world at the tour yeah the Giro is different I mean he could realistically

win a Giro stage which would be massive for that team that would make their season Yeah and they have you know in La Fecan men at Giro stage Kubis Walt Pooz still win a stage from the breakaway Kubik or what says

Kubis Lucas Kubis yeah he's really good that guy's really good so they have a bunch of riders who could win a Giro stage and I think actually

it's kind of the next logical step right I mean straight away to the Tour de France I think it's a bit too much wishful thinking honestly if you're really honest yeah yeah that's a good point

you know for example okay they have this new sponsor rose bikes right it's an online bike manufacturer uh but that brand doesn't even make time trial bikes you know they they i mean they were open about it they made an agreement with ridley and they bought ridleys and they painted them with in the rose colors so that means that they still have some work to do right to be i know another i know a team that went to the tour without time trial bikes did pretty well

Yeah, 25 years ago. I love that. It's the track and it's so clearly a light speed titanium bike. Yeah, that was, yeah, track was not happy about that. Let me tell you. It's like, that picture is everywhere in the U.S. too. Yeah, I know. If you really look closely.

Spencer, and it was such a bad paint job. It was such a bad paint. Did you have a Dave Bolshe paint that the night before? It was like spray painted. Like, you know, like it was. It was crazy. It was unbelievable. So for the listeners, you know, it was Lance in the first two in 99.

He wrote a light speed bike, time for a bike. Painted, you know, plain blue with like strange track stickers on it. It looked like someone like drew Trek on. No, I don't know. It was stickers. But it was actually, it was very ghetto, very ghetto. Yeah. Pretty funny.

But this does make sense. Yeah, I think I got caught up in hype too. We were a little too excited. This is better. I think this is better for them in the long run. I think you're right. It's a funny story about Kahou, overall. It's a big team, historic team.

You would know this team. There was a race in Boulder, and my friend was in the front group. And there was a guy from Kahurall, and he attacked, and he didn't go with them. And the guy stayed away in one, obviously. I was like, why didn't you follow him? He said, I didn't know what that team was. Like what is that team? I've never heard of it before.

I'm like, they're pretty good, man. Like maybe follow them. No, but I mean, like historically, like even in the, I would say in the 80s, they already had a team. I mean, Pedro Delgado was on that team. Marino Le Jaretta was on that team. It's that team. I mean, that sponsor has been around for a long time.

I mean, obviously then they went, they were out for a bit and then they came back. But it's a super powerful company in the Basque country. So in the north of Spain. It's a bank as well. Bank, yeah. Kaja is like it's like a savings bank. It's the bank of, yeah,

like it's little banks, but it's super powerful. There's a lot of banking tradition in the north of Spain, like Santander. Bank was from San area. Yeah. It's from Abria, yeah. Must be from all the shipping throughout the years, I guess.

But that's another podcast for another day, digging into Spanish banking. and how that relates to ASO. But other news that came across our desk, I thought this was super interesting. So we've been talking for a long time. Why did Picnic Post-N-L sell Oscar-onle? They allegedly got six million euros to sell Onli to Ineos.

Very good writer got forth in the tour last year. And we were discussing it more like, wow, this is a big risk. You know, this is what they do. They sell riders mid-contract. They get money for it. How long can this playbook work? this is a little aggressive, but the money in sports substack, and I could not find an credited author on this, which would make it, which would, I guess you should take it with a grain of salt.

But if you read this piece, they do have a lot of documentation. It doesn't look like they made this up. Someone did a lot of research when they were doing this. The headline is they lost 19.5 million euros over the last three years. And like you can't really lose money as a cycling team, because you don't have any assets, you don't really make any money. So if a sponsor is giving you $10, you should spend nine, maybe save a dollar for the next year, maybe spend 10 and try to run it again next year exactly the way you are. But they're losing money. And there's apparently 14.6 million euros in debt.

So that would also explain why they need that money from the only sale. And this person, this journalist listed out the 2024 budgets for teams that have to declare, they have to file reports basically with their government. Vizma's first at 52 million euros for 2024. Picnic is last. 11.7 million euro budget. And you might think, well, that's a lot of money. Well, that's a lot less than 52 million.

And the thing that's is expensive for running a cycling team is the salaries. So just for an example, Visma spent six. 63% of their budget on salaries, the Cathlon, 59%. Those are pretty good numbers. Picnick spent 134% of its budget on salaries. So it's spending far more than it's making, just paying people their salaries. That's not a good spot to be in.

Well, first of all, Spencer, I mean, my first question would be, how is this possible? How can you spend 130 of what you don't have? So I've always had questions about this team and, you know, it doesn't make, I mean, never really made sense to me that, because I know the sponsors that came and go, I mean, if you look at the history of that team, you know, they had sponsors. Some people didn't even know that they existed, then they change sometimes in the middle of the year. I mean, there must be some kind of sponsor or wealthy individual behind because.

I mean, it's a while ago. I'm not going to be right saying it's 10 years ago or 15 years ago. I don't remember how long ago. But I remember one year, this team started the season. And they didn't have a sponsor. And they made up this strange name, like 4.I something. 4.I. A weird formula, like a formula, whatever it was.

It meant nothing. Yeah, yeah. Was it for? Yeah. If you go through the history of the team, you'll see, and then it became Argos oil or something. And the Argos deal also seemed to be like just the front for whatever. It was Argos Shimano for a while.

Yeah, but before that, was it not, there was a time it's called, there was a four in it. It was just a number, like 4x or 4I, whatever. It's not on the... Okay, is it IT4I or something? Yes, something like that. Yeah, so that was not a company. That was just something awaiting the arrival of a sponsor. But in the meantime, people have to get paid.

So there must be some kind of funding behind that is not public. Otherwise, it's just not possible. I mean, the proof is, I mean, if you have 11 million and you spend 100, 130% on that on salary. That's not the total budget because you have operation costs. You have a lot of other running costs. So it's probably 150, 160% that you need to run the team. So, I mean, nowadays, Spencer, with 11 million, you can't be in the world tour.

It's impossible. No, no. It's impossible. So I said, you know, I've always, I never understood how that team worked. But now if I see those numbers, then, yeah, I mean, what is it, $19 million? $19 million. Yeah, $19 million in losses over the last three years. So the way that the dollar is devaluating by the second, that could be $100 million by tomorrow. We don't know.

But we got to start getting paid in euros, Johan. Well, I mean, you're fine, but that's not good for me. I did deal a few years ago where I was getting paid in British pounds. And it's like you can you can get like a 30% raise just on the changes in the way the currency is training. It's kind of interesting. But the article suggests that I mean, I don't, I'm just going to say the articles suggest that DSM in the CEO of DSM is covering these losses. That's their their best guess. whether it's DSM or not,

you're right, it's got to be somebody. Same thing with Visma. They have losses. Someone's covering that. It was considerable over the years. I mean, I'd love to do the math one day

on all the riders with contracts that left that team. That's in the millions. Oh, yeah. Many millions that were income that was not accounted for initially. So, you know,

all know who left. I mean, Oscar only left now. I mean, now it's clear also they could not have kept him. They just could not have kept him, right? Because a guy who's ford in the tour wants a raise, they couldn't give him the raise, they couldn't commit for multiple years. Let's not forget also, Spencer, that this article, I haven't read it, but it makes sense because if we go back to a few months ago when the world tour licenses were attributed they only got it for one year and they revised for the next two years because they couldn't they didn't have any financial guarantees for uh 27 and 28 so uh it kind of all starts adding up and uh starts to make uh yeah starts to make sense now that they definitely in financial trouble i mean they must

have been shopping him during the tour that he was getting forth because there's just no way they could have kept him yeah and then you know look at look at look at I mean, okay, Bardé, Bardet, retire. So that was a big salary. Oscar only changes teams, plus they get a big bonus for his sales. I mean,

they need to do these kind of things. And they didn't get anybody of a considerable salary due to in the place, not of only, but also not for Bardet. So they're getting cheaper and cheaper. Yeah. And we'll keep people

informed of this. I thought this was a pretty good piece. Thank you, Money and Sport for publishing it. I would get, you're right. Someone's covering this, but it just made me wonder, are they going to try to sell this license at some point and get out? Was the only sell part of the unraveling of this? The thing is selling something that is not very successful. It's not easy. You know, they're in the world tour. The only way they can be, they can stay in the world tour if somebody comes in and guarantees financially 27 and 28. but then, you know, who are they going to sign, right? I mean, who, which big names, they, they almost need to have riders from their development

program step up and score points to remain in the world tour. Yeah. It's going to be hard. I mean, I think it's not, it's, it's not, I mean, they go third today, you know, in the, in the Alula tour, you know, this guy, it's funny, funny signing. actually. This guy was a cat tree rider and he got second in the World Championships Gravel. The guy who built third today in Alula. What's his name? His name is Fritz. It's Fritz, but I like to think it's Fritz. Fritz.

I think this guy's if I'm not mistaken. I hope I have the right guy. Let me just check. No, you got second. You did get second of world championships last year. Yeah. So nobody, he was, he was basically a, you know, a club rider. He was on beat cycling. They are, they're like, they're not, they're not pro team. You know, they're like third category team. And so, I mean, these kind of guys obviously are interesting.

They, they're cheap and, and they score points. But, you know, they're going to need a lot of Fritz guys to, to score points and, and remain, remain in the world with the points. I mean, this guy must be a massive engine. He got second at a Cebu tour time trial last year and won the Dutch gravel championships. I mean, he got to be... And second in the world. Second in the world.

And he beat Teaborrezzo. Yeah, he was the guy who could stay the longest with Florian Vermeerche. Yeah, so he's clearly... But that's what this team is really good at. They call rabbits out of it. But they are pushing this to the limit. The way they're shedding talent, and then asking people to step up.

There is a breaking point at a certain point. But now we know it's out of necessity. This is not a measured. And also, Spencer, I fear for, I fear for them because, you know, now that it's known that they're in financial trouble, this is a snowball effect. You know, it's obviously not great for the motivation of the guys. You know, they're going to be now in a situation where, okay,

am I going to get paid next month? Right. Because we are not the only ones who are reading this article. And now that we're talking about it, they're obviously going to know about it too. I mean, not everybody reads the substack articles, but this is going to be copied on other outlets. So this is not great for the team and for the atmosphere of the writers and the staff. And once this atmosphere starts to be, you know, doubts and everybody's talking to each other, it's difficult to stay focused, motivated, and to perform. Yeah, and I was talking to Kevin Vermarka, who came from Picnic to UAE.

And we were kind of, I don't know if we had this conversation in public or private, but it's like, that's kind of a weird move. If you go from being a leader to now you're a worker. But I was talking to him at their training camp. And he didn't say anything specifically, but you could sense he was so much more relaxed and like almost relieved to be off that ship and to be at a team where you're at this, Everything just exudes wealth around the UAE team. And that has to have been a big reason.

Like, I'm just going to go to the team. I know the check's going to clear every month and I don't have to worry about it anymore. And you're right. It's going to make it really hard to sign writers now that this is public. Yeah, for sure. Before we take off, Jonas Vindigard crashed in training earlier this week. He was, I wish I'd done a little bit. They're calling it an amateur writer, but I have questions about if it could

truly being amateur was following him on a dissent it sounds like he was trying to push it this is all the person who was behind him wrote a Strava post about this yeah that apparently he was pushing it to drop the guy the guy comes up to him you know later on the descent he has crashed his face which is not good it's never good to crash on the descent if you're you know just for your training and stuff but he crashes and then we have a question from a reader about it before you respond I'm just going to read this question and it's going to kick us into this conversation this This is from Alec. Alex says, I saw Jonas Vindigard crash in a dissent in training today.

It looks like some fan, and we'll come back to that term fan. What's following him and Jonas may be pushed a little harder than necessary leading to the crash. My question for you guys is why are these riders required to wear their team jerseys on training rides? It seems like there's a bunch of pseudo-poparazzi fans like Johan and I that just want to follow the pros everywhere. This has to be annoying for the guys as well as occasionally more dangerous. I know the team jerseys have sponsors on them, but for training rides, who really cares? I feel like writers will be happier, being anonymous, and basically just wearing like black kit,

like when people used to train with Ferrari when they weren't supposed to and they'd wear blacked-out kits. Curious about your thoughts and if there are any rules where you could do this. But I would say first thing, Johan, these fans, and we've been these fans before, you know these writers writing styles so well. Even if Jonas is in a black-tac kit, we would know who it is. And a lot of people would know who it is. I mean, especially, I mean, I think he seems. to have some kind of property in the south of Spain, no? Because he's there often.

Yeah. So, yeah, whether he's in the Vizma or in a normal and not a kid, you know, the cycling fans know that they, he's there. Yeah. You know, you know, and on top of that, if you see a guy pass, whether it's on a Cervillo bike or a time trial bike or, you know, you can see the style. I mean, you can see, okay, this is, this is a pro. And there's not that many riders there in, in. in Andalusia. So all the guys who ride bikes know that Jonas is there for sure.

I think it's a question of, and also I think, you know, we have to take it with a grain of salt, whether Jonas was pushing it or not. I don't think so. I think it's just an unfortunate crash. I mean, these guys don't push it to drop cyclotourists or even amateur riders. They don't push it. They just do their thing. you know, who have even even a well-trained amateur, they can only follow until the pro

rider decides, okay, you know, I'm going to push it a bit harder now. Well, that's what I was going to say is the moment they want to push it, 90% of people can't stay with them. So I think, you know, what I take away from it is Jonas's reaction was probably, okay, he was obviously disappointed and pissed off that he crashed. it's definitely not the writer who tried to follow his fault because he was not even there

so he only saw him in the corner and he went to check on him if he was okay and Jonas was disappointed and pissed off probably first of all with himself I've got to say I've been this guy before where you crash and people try to help you and you're so pissed with yourself

you know you don't want anybody to make pictures because I mean you know a writer who crashes on training, a professional writer, it's like, okay, you feel like a dumbass, you know, because you say, okay, you know, so I'm, I would take it with a grain of salt.

Usually, I mean, I see, you know, there's some influencers. I mean, we met our Ukrainian friend in, in company, we write at the pros all the time. You know, the pros know, the pros know, usually these guys who film and make videos, first of all,

they know the riders, they're friends with them, they ask for permission. I know, for example, our Ukrainian friend, he always asks for permission to ride with them. They usually have no problem. And if they say no, rather not, then, you know, they respect the guy who, whether they have to do exercises, or they don't want to be filmed or whatever, right? So what I think is the most dangerous is, you know, like you're real, real cycling tourists who are there. And all of a sudden they see these guys coming. call their phone and they want to take a selfie, you know, or film a little, that's dangerous.

But, but I would say in 90% of the cases, the guys who want to ride on the wheel of professionals, they ask for permission. And usually the pro guy will say, you know what, it's fine. As long as you don't follow me until my garage door, you know, and it's at my house. But it's, no, I think in this case, yeah, it's the guys don't really mind because they all know that once they are in their zone and they have to do their intervals, you know, nobody can follow them, not even very well trained amateur riders. It's impossible to follow a top professional. I mean, if you go to Artem's YouTube page is super interesting. He'll do the zone two rides with with Bagachar and he puts his power on the screen. I mean, he's doing, Artem's probably doing

350 watts. Yeah. On these zone two rides. There's a limit to how long and on the downhills. I mean, Jonas Vindegard, he's not known as like a daredevil descender. He would drop me so fast on a downhill if he wanted to. I'm not professional rider.

It's like on mountains. Even the UA team camp was kind of on the side of a hill mountain and it was not a steep climb, but the way they would start their rides you get dropped so fast. Yeah.

You just, a normal person can't stay with them. So I don't know if it's a epidemic going around that people are crashing these rides. And you could imagine it being a problem in a certain way. Yeah, what we can say in the case of Jonas, it's definitely not because it's overpopulated with amateur riders who want to make selfies of professionals because he's training in Annalosia. If you go to Benidore, Macalpe, Altea, that's different. It's becoming, in my opinion, it's becoming a problem.

For example, if you go to Calderat, nowadays it is, it's an infestation of bike riders. And the professionals for some, I mean, they're going to, ultimately, they're going to go away from Colderat because it's becoming too much. And you can't really do what you have to do because you have to navigate. between all the riders who want to go up there. Yeah. Yeah. I got to go to Mount Lemon. That'll be the next spot.

Well, Johan, do you have anything else to add before we take off? I think we've covered most of the news, Spencer. We'll be back very soon on Monday, no, with our up-and-comer show? Monday with our up-and-comer show. So we got to get those lists built over the weekend. That's a very important show every year. And then we should try to check in on our up-and-comers from last. year how they panned out.

Let's do that. Yeah. Let's start the show with that and then yeah. Okay. All right, Johan, we'll all see you soon and we'll be back for the move plus at the end of the week as well. So we'll talk to everybody soon. Okay. Thanks, Spencer. Okay, bye.