Theology in the Raw - 633: Christian Universalist and Church Leadership - How To Do Benevolence Well

Episode Date: February 5, 2018

Does being a Christian Universalist disqualify you from pastoral leadership? We want diversity in the Church - how about diversity in ability? Does welcoming people with disabilities make the church too messy?  The Bible definitely talks about church discipline. However, how do we properly administer church discipline? How do we do Benevolence well? Should we continue to give that homeless person continuous handouts because he asks for it? 

Being a Christian Universalist disqualifies an individual. The one area that seems to be missing, including on your podcast, is diversity in ability. How the church should discipline the believers. How to do benevolence well. I'm Preston Sprinkle and this of Theology in the Raw. We are going to get to your questions that you have submitted over the last several weeks. I have submitted them to my Patreon supporters and they have voted on them. So this is a Patreon supported podcast, which means if you do support this podcast, you get some kickbacks in return.

You get to vote on questions and other perks that come up. But most of all, I just want to thank you, my supporters, for supporting this podcast. Your encouragement means the world to me. If you desire to support this podcast, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and read all the nitty gritty details there. I've got a good set of questions here that my Patreon supporters have voted on. And also some Patreon questions that have come in that sort of automatically get boosted to the top. So if you are a Patreon supporter and you have a question, make sure you let me know

that you are a Patreon supporter and I will give you sort of a front row seat at Theology in the Raw. Hey, quick overview of some different speaking events that I have going on. If you're in any one of these cities, would love for you to sign up and come join me at these various events. February 8th, which is right around the corner, February 8th in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm doing a one-day leaders forum through the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. You can read more about the details there at centerforfaith.com forward slash programs would be the initial link that you need to click on. And then from there, you go to leaders forums and you can click on the details and register from there. But this is just a couple of days away. So if you are in the Phoenix area,

you're going to want to sign up. You're going to want to sign up for this like yesterday. So I'm pretty sure we're not sold out yet. We try to cap it at around 200, and I think we still have about 50 slots left as of the recording of this episode. So there's more than likely there's going to be some room, but you definitely want to sign up now if you want to go to the Phoenix Leaders Forum. I'll be in Portland on February 27th

for another Leaders Forum. You can go sign up through the same website, centerforfaith.com forward slash programs. That one's filling up pretty fast. So you definitely want to sign up now before that one sells out. It's going to be hosted by Imago Dei Church in Portland or Imago Dei Bridgetown and several other churches have come together to kind of bring me and the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender into their city. So that's February 27th in Portland. I'll be at Corbin University in Salem, Oregon on the next day, February 28th,

speaking at chapel and doing a special night discussion, talk slash free-for-all at a nearby church. So, if you want information on that, go to the Corbin University website. The chapel is pretty straightforward. I believe it's at 10 a.m. at Corbin University, but there's going to be that night discussion, which is open to everybody. I mean, the chapel is open to everybody too, but the night discussion is going to be really cool, I think. So, if you want to check that out, go to Corbin University's website. That's February 28th. March 2nd, I will be in Spokane at the Greater Than Conference. You can go to www.greaterthanconference.info and sign up there. There's various things that I'll be doing in the afternoon and at night in

Spokane, March 2nd. March 9th and 10th, I'll be at the Rethinking Hell conference in Dallas, Texas. Go to RethinkingHell.com for more information there. A few others here. Let's see. Doing something with the Free Methodists out in Indianapolis, but that is a closed event. Methodist out in Indianapolis, but that is a closed event. April 14th, I'll be in Dyer, Indiana at Faith Reform Church. That is April 14th, Saturday night and April 15th, Sunday morning, speaking at Faith Reform Church, which is part of the RCA in Dyer, Indiana. I'll be at in Zeeland, Michigan, April 16th and 17th for another Leaders Forum. This is a closed event, unfortunately, but if you're part of the RCA, the Reformed Church of America, and you're in the Zeeland or Grand Rapids or Holland or West Michigan area, or if you're

just in Michigan and you're associated with the RCA, then please email me through the website centerforfaith.com and inquire about attending that event. If you're in Boise, I know I haven't talked too much about this, but May 10th, I will be doing my first Hometown Leaders Forum on May 10th. We're still trying to nail down a venue for that. We don't even have the registration info up yet, but if you're in Boise, you want to attend the One Day Leaders Forum where we're going to talk about faith, sexuality, and gender, then please mark your calendars for May 10th and stay tuned for more info on that. And there's other events coming in the summer and fall, but let's go ahead and jump into your questions. Number one, do you think that

a Christian universalist, being a Christian universalist disqualifies an individual from pastoral leadership? That's the headline of this question. I want to just read briefly this person's question, how he articulates it. He says, I'm currently a teaching pastor, volunteer, not staff, at my home church. The pastoral leadership accepts the diversity of thought as long as we teach in a way that doesn't exclude people in particular schools of thought. That sounds a little general, quite honestly. What does that mean, excluding people of particular schools of thought? Anyway, I'll keep going. I deeply love and respect this, but I can't seem to shake this idea that many people in a church would want me removed from leadership should they know my convictions. I can see where he's going with this. Additionally, I'm passionate about the house church planting movement and almost moved a year ago to San

Francisco to be a part of We Are Church, but I had the same thought that Francis Chan wouldn't be about me being in leadership either based on my theology. What are your thoughts? going to be a part of We Are Church. But I had the same thought that Francis Chan wouldn't be about me being in leadership either based on my theology. What are your thoughts? This is coming from a Patreon supporter, and he's going to be at the Rethinking Hell conference in March. So I look forward to talking to you, man. This is so awesome. I can't wait to see a lot of people that keep saying they're going to be at the Rethinking Hell conference in March, people that keep saying they're going to be at the Rethinking Hell conference in March, March 9th and 10th. And I'm so excited. I'm excited to give my, you know, my talk and talk from the stage and stuff. And I'm almost more excited, if not equally excited about just

hanging with people that keep saying, hey, I follow you on social media. I'm going to be at this conference. Can't wait to see you. So I can't wait to see you too. Anyway, I'm assuming that you're a universalist. You haven't said it explicitly, but this is kind of the nature of the question here. You know, does it disqualify you from, does being a universalist disqualify you from being in pastoral leadership? I mean, in a sense, I can't answer that unless I know what the standards for leadership

of a particular local church are. So as far as biblically, no, there's no verse in 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 that sort of lists for qualification for pastoral leadership. There's nothing in there that says thou shalt not be a universalist. So, yeah, I have nothing in the Bible, in the actual Bible that says universalists should not be in leadership. Now, somebody could say, well, this is a heretical view and therefore heretics shouldn't be in pastoral leadership. And that logic is somewhat okay, I guess. The question is, is it a heretical view? How do you determine what's a heretical view? What does heretical even mean? So, if we go on the early church creeds,

specifically the Apostles' Creed, Nicaea Creed, and Chalcedonian Creed, then no, universalism is not deemed to be heretical. In fact, there are several church fathers whom we immensely respect that were so-called universalists, and they were not only included in pastoral leadership, but were lauded. They were praised as being pillars of the faith. So, if we go back to the roots of early Christianity, no, simply being a universalist does not exclude you. Let me be really clear too, there are a couple different brands of universalism. The so-called Christian view of universalism that says Christ's blood was so incredibly powerful that it overcomes the unbelief of all humankind. That's a very,

in a sense, look, you can think that universalism is totally out the lunch, his horrible view is unbiblical, whatever. But this particular Christian brand of universalism is centered and derived from, centered on it and derived from the finished work of Jesus Christ. So that's very different than sort of, you know, pluralism, secular pluralism that says, you know, all roads lead to heaven, whether you worship Allah, worship Buddha, worship Muhammad, whatever. Yeah, it all kinds of goes. They all go to the same place. Like that's secular pluralism.

This is all religions are about the same. Jesus is just as relevant as Muhammad. That, yes, if you believe that, you have no business being in pastoral leadership. But if you believe that the blood of Christ is so incredibly powerful, so overwhelming, so beautiful, so good that it overcomes even the unbelief of all humankind, I personally don't think. If you have a good exegetical argument for that, and I think you could, that that would exclude you from pastoral ministry intrinsically. Now again, if the pastoral leadership of a particular church says this view is not going to be entertained at all from our local church, I can absolutely

respect that. And if that's the view, then I think for integrity purposes, yeah, you shouldn't be a pastoral leader at that particular church. But again, it really depends on which brand of universalism you hold to, why you hold to it, and what is the view of the specific church you are inquiring about. Next question, this person says, I hear you and many others speaking about the importance of diversity in the church. I think that's great. I hear a lot about the need for diversity in terms of race, economics, gender, age, sexual preference, etc. The one area that seems to be missing, including on your podcast, is diversity in ability. I'm a father of two children on the severe end of the autism spectrum, and I wonder

how many churches would welcome them. Does welcoming people with disabilities make the church, quote, too messy? Fantastic question, and I'm a little embarrassed that I haven't highlighted this because I just want you to know, if you're listening to this person who asked this question, that I 110% absolutely agree with you on this, and my answer is yes. Yes, diversity absolutely includes diversity in ability. No, welcoming people with disabilities does not make the church too messy. It makes the church too beautiful. And in my small little tiny barn located house church, we have several people with disabilities.

And I love it. I love it. They're absolutely beautiful human beings. I'm a better Christian because they're there. I would hope, I hope, I'm speaking for the rest of the gathering, that they are all better human beings because these people who have, are diverse in ability are not only being tolerated, but they are being valued and included into the community. So, oh man. And I've talked with parents. I don't have any kids with these kinds of disabilities, but I've talked with parents that do have kids with disabilities, and it can be incredibly hard to find a church that doesn't just tolerate them, doesn't just have some special needs room they are shuffled off in, but actually positively values people with physical disabilities. So if you're a church

leader, man, look, we've got to do this better. We should not have people that don't know how to find a church home because the church doesn't know what to do with their autistic or Down syndrome kids or whatever. Like the church should not only open its arms incredibly wide to welcome people with physical or mental disabilities. But we should be defined as a place that is filled with beautiful people with physical, mental disabilities. And so God help us all and God give us grace to create cultures of welcome, scandalous welcome for all people and that the place can be filled this room can be filled with people that have physical or mental disabilities I'm hoping you used the correct term there

I know these changes, the terms kind of change quite rapidly so I hope physical or mental disability, I'm really using that in a neutral way, I don't mean that to be demeaning. So, I hope that it's not a demeaning phrase. Next question, questions. This has to do with church discipline, questions related to church discipline. I have a question regarding how the church should discipline the believers that are in sin within the church. There are some texts like Matthew 18, verse 17, that are used to call out people sin within the church, there are some texts like Matthew 18,

verse 17, that are used to call out people before all the church, and the church is encouraged to call them to repentance. What I've seen is that when this happens, the reaction of the congregation is such a reaction towards these believers struggling with sin. You see the difference there? So, people that are in unrepentant, ongoing sin are disciplined or called out. And this can have a negative effect on people struggling with sin. There's a big difference between giving in and celebrating and not repenting from sin and struggling with sin, like inviting help. Like, I need help. I'm struggling with this. I'm watching porn every day of the week. I can't stop. Can you help me? That's a struggle. But if you say, I love watching porn. It gives me life. I don't care what you all say. I'm not going to stop. That's not a struggle. That's an unrepented ongoing pattern of sin.

Going on here, instead of receiving them in love, trying to help, they are cut. They cut all communication and shun them. I would appreciate that you would talk about this in Theology in Raw, clarifying that Jesus says in this verse about treating them as pagans if they don't repent. I just want more clarification because I think Christ treated pagans with love and he did not reject them even though he called them out in their sin. So, in the verse, in Matthew 18, it talks about, and other passages say, you know, that if somebody is disciplined out of the church, they should be treated like an unbeliever, treated like a pagan. And it is true that Jesus treated unbelievers and pagans with tons of grace

and compassion. So, what do you do with somebody that's been disciplined out of a church and is so-called shunned or treated like a non-believer? Like, how is that different than how believers should treat non-believers? I think there is a, when the Bible says we should treat unrepented confessing Christians as pagans or as non-believers and discipline out of the church, I think there's a very narrow meaning there that it doesn't mean we treat them like how we treat all unbelievers.

It just simply means they are not part of the Christian community. And if you belong to the Christian community, you receive all kinds of spiritual family benefits, okay, of love and embrace and compassion, all these things that Christians should be doing towards each other in a real radical way, you know, redistributing goods, fellowship and care and these, you know, radical swapping of virtues, if you will, and sharing of spiritual gifts that you receive, or you should receive if you belong to the Christian community. And if you are excluded from that community because you refuse to repent from your sin, then you miss out on those very special benefits that come with belonging to the body of Christ. It doesn't mean you're now treated unkindly. It just means you miss out on the benefits of belonging to the body of Christ. the benefits of belonging to the body of Christ. So I think, again, I don't think there's, I think,

yeah, that's the precise meaning of Jesus's words when he says you should treat them like an unbeliever. It doesn't mean that categorically they are treated like how Christians should treat unbelievers in every single respect. It's more the lack of benefits of being excluded from the Christian community. Next question, how to do benevolence well? I wanted to get Preston's thoughts on how to do benevolence well. In the church, I have recently helped out a friend I just met at a barber shop who was in need of finances. And since then, this person has been calling nonstop for more help and more money. I'm struggling with what to do in regards to follow up, following up with this person. I'm a local pastor.

I've already shared the gospel with this person, but I am not made of money. I am praying and trying to apply the principles I've learned from When Helping Hurts. It's a fantastic book that I often recommend. But I'm struggling on what is the best thing to do. This question is complex because it's not an operation from the church, but from me individually. Okay, so he's just doing this. It's not like he's enlisting Christian or the church's piggy bank to help out this person he met at the barbershop. Our policy at church is a work in progress, but for an individual believer, what should I do? There is no evidence or assumption that this person is a believer, but not to be, or not to be cliched, but what would Jesus do?

Oh man, great question. And I just want to highly commend people to read When Helping Hurts, fantastic book, one of my top five most influential books in my life. I can't summarize everything talked about in that book in the short time we have, but I think you will understand my answer better if you read that book. So my short answer is I don't think you should keep giving this person money. If you wanted to help them out at the beginning, I guess that's fine. But okay, so here's the basic gist of when helping hurts. The basic gist is, and I'm going back about eight years when I first read it, but it's lingered with me ever since.

So I think I can draw upon some basic principles here. When Helping Hurts says that if somebody is on the brink of survival, like they're in Haiti and a hurricane hits and they have no access to clean water, food, no safety nets. And if you don't give them, like just physically give them food or money, they're going to die. Or water, like they might need a jug of clean water, otherwise they're going to die in a couple of days. When know, when earthquakes hit cities, in third world countries, especially if there's, you know, even, you know, war-torn countries where it's like people are left on the streets, no access to jobs, no access to food, shelter, the basic necessities of life, there is a place for giving a raw handout. But it is,

raw handout. But it is in moments when people absolutely, and I don't just, I mean that literally, not emphatically, like they absolutely need a raw handout to survive. If that's the case, then a raw handout is necessary, obviously. It's not, you don't want to just for the rest of their life have them survive off a raw handout. But in that moment, to get them back on their feet, they might need just some money in their pocket, some food, some water, some clean water, some shelter, and so on. Okay, so that's kind of a given, I guess. And most people are like, well, yeah, obviously. But the next principle that When Helping Hurt says is that when, if somebody is not in that kind of dire condition, like if they don't receive a handout from you, they're going to die. Like if they're not in that kind of situation, if it's like, okay, well, then they're not going to die. Then actually giving them a handout or even especially consistent handouts that actually is doing more harm than

good. Because what a person needs when they're in a position where they actually do have some access to a job, some access to food, shelter, clean water, some access to make it on their own, what they most need is, you know, things like psychological confidence that they can make it on their own. What they need is access to a job and relational help to stay in that job and help in cultivating a strong work ethic. Giving somebody who is not on the brink of survival, but is simply struggling with money or they're in an environment where they may not have as much as other people. Maybe they're super poor, but there is access or opportunity to climb the social ladder,

if you will, around them. What they don't need is an ongoing, consistent handout. So in this situation, if I'm reading the situation correctly, again, I would need more details to say definitively, but it sounds like if you kept giving this person money, just a raw handout, you are actually hurting them. You are not loving them. You're not extending love to them. You are not helping them cultivate an ongoing pattern of sufficiency and human flourishing,

really. It's not healthy for people to be endlessly dependent upon handouts. Again, unless they are in a situation where, you know, a massive earthquake has hit or tsunami or, you know, third world country where it's all war and torn or whatever, like, not too many people that actually need perpetual handouts, especially, I would say, especially in America. What they do need is relationship, maybe a worldview shift. Maybe there's probably some past trauma or situation that has caused them to want to rely on handouts. Maybe they learned this from their parents, their mother, their

father, their friends, or their past experiences. And so they have actually been, you know, warped into thinking that this is the way to flourish or survive. And it's not, this is not the way to flourish or to survive as a human when there are other avenues of survival and flourishing in place. So going back to your original question about benevolence, I just want to say one more word before we sign off here. I think, you know, benevolence, I remember growing up in church where they had a special benevolence fund where people would give money on top of their 10%, right? 10% goes to the church building, the chandeliers, the electricity bill at the church, to pay the staff, the new sound system. It goes to flat screen TVs in the youth group. That's where your

money should primarily go. And if you have any leftover, you can give to a separate fund that goes to help people in need. Personally, I kind of want to invert that entire system. I've often said, and I think it sounds radical or idealistic, but we're actually trying to do it in our church now, is that we should invert that entire system so that people's primary giving is benevolence, helping people in the church in need. Again, not through handouts, endless handouts, but there are times that people need a little boost. They might need a bill paid. They might need some physical help with this or that or money to help repair their house

or whatever. These are not ongoing, endless support or cultivating dependence, but it can help give people a nudge to get back on their feet, can help alleviate some situation where they got a medical bill they weren't expecting and in this moment, they just can't pay it. They may need a burst of help in that moment. That's benevolence. And yeah, I would say that when all the benevolence needs are taken care of, then get a flat screen for the youth group or, you know, re-carpet the sanctuary or whatever. So, yeah. So, how to do benevolence well, I would say invert the entire system in the church. Would love to see the needs of actual people being

cared for first before we start spending money on other things that aren't essential to someone's survival or essential to discipleship. Thanks for your questions. And again, go to patreon.com forward slash Theology in a Raw if you want to support the show. And also to my Patreon supporters, I have a fresh set of questions that by the time you listen to us have been up for a few days, and I'm going to keep posting fresh sets of questions. So be sure you vote on those. Would love, love, love to answer the questions that you yourself are asking. Thanks for listening to Theology in a Raw. We'll see you next time. I'm asking, is there a limit to your mercy? Cause I wanna know

I wanna go back to the days where for you I was thirsty Okay now, Lord I apologize Again I crucified you I tried to fight it but it's clear I need you to survive So many times I tried with my own devices, but you told me everything I need you have provided. Blind to your love, was deaf to your call. I come before your throne of grace and I surrender all. Cause when I fall, you're there to catch me.

So if they ask me, I'll say that your grace is all I need. Oh Lord, you see the best in me. That's why I call you Yahweh. That's why I call you Yahweh. When I'm walking through the valley, let me feel you next to me. And that's my prayer. And that's my prayer And that's my prayer You know my thoughts You know my heart

You know my prayer You know my thoughts You know my heart You know my prayer You know my prayer And so I pray Let your spirit fill me Every day I pray. Let your spirit fill me. Every day I'm breathing. Let your mercy shield me. Shield me from all evil.

Cause it was you who found me. So when you just ground me. Build a tower around me. Goodness and favor round me. Begging never allow me. Never move on without me. If you move on without me. What is a death to drown me? Sometimes it gets so rowdy. My sunny days get cloudy. But with you I overcome. And I'll say that your grace is all I need.

Oh Lord, you see the best in me. That's why I call you Yahweh. That's why I call you Yahweh. Yahweh, this one I call Yahweh When I'm walking through the valley, let me feel you next to me That's my prayer, that's my prayer Say that your grace is all I need, oh Lord, you see the best in me. That's why I call you Yahweh, Yahweh, Yahweh. That's why I call you Yahweh, Yahweh, Yahweh.

When I'm walking through the valley, let me feel you next to me. And that's my prayer, my prayer, my prayer. And that's my prayer And that's my prayer And that's my prayer, oh Lord And that's my prayer You know my thoughts You know my heart You know my prayer

You know my thoughts You know my heart You know my prayer You know my prayer Thank you.