Theology in the Raw - 643: #643 - Banning Liebscher of Bethel Church; Author, Revivalist, and Church Planter

Episode Date: April 16, 2018

Find Banning on Twitter and his books here. Find out more about Jesus Culture. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Follow him on Twitter @PrestonSprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Many listeners to Theology in a Raw have questions about faith, sexuality, and gender. I know because at least half of the questions that you send in to me to answer on the show have to do with this complex topic. I want to let you know about a resource that I've created or helped create to guide you through this conversation. It's called Grace Truth 1.0, five conversations every thoughtful Christian should have about faith, sexuality, and Gender. And it's only available on our website, centerforfaith.com.

That's centerforfaith.com. Grace Truth 1.0 is a book, but it's more than a book. It's a small group study, but it's more than a small group study. I like to think of it as a small group learning experience. The book portion of this learning experience has five short chapters, or as I call them, conversations about various topics related to faith, sexuality, and gender. And then at the end of each conversation, there's a bunch of questions that you or your group can go through together. Now, I've been in education long enough to know that everyone's learning style

is different. This is why we created a series of high quality educational videos that correspond to each of the five conversations in Grace Truth 1.0. Plus, if you want to go deeper into the conversation, we've also created optional podcasts and papers that allow you to go deeper into certain areas that are only briefly covered in Grace Truth 1.0. I am so excited about this resource and hope that you'll check it out and consider taking a group of people through it. Again, to purchase Grace Truth 1.0, you can go to our website, centerforfaith.com and just click on the resource link. That's centerforfaith.com forward slash resources. Now, without further ado, welcome to Theology in a Raw. Greetings and welcome, podcast listeners.

And now, if this works out, video viewers or wherever this thing is going to turn up, hopefully this will be up on the YouTube page in some way. I am just insanely incapable of anything technologically um possible out there see i don't even know how to talk about it but i am here with my friend banning leapshire for my first video based podcast so if you are listening to the podcast and you want to see banning's beautiful face and my my pottery barn-ish office. And you can go to my YouTube channel, I think, I think if this works out okay. And you can view this podcast and see us conversing with each other.

Anyway, Banning Leibscher. If you don't know who Banning is, Banning is, I'm going to say the catalyst for a massive, massive global movement called Jesus Culture. It started, as I understand it, I'm going to have Benny jump in here and rescue me here in a second. It started primarily as a worship movement. But I think it's more than that. It's more of just a Jesus kind of movement that has gone international. It's just crazy blown up. Probably a lot of the songs you sing on Sunday morning, if you're listening to this, come out of Jesus culture in some way. And Banning was also on staff at Bethel Church in Redding, California. And now he has planted more recently, a Jesus culture church in Sacramento,

California. So Banning, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being on. Well, it's great to be here. Always an honor to hang out with you. And what an honor to be on your first video podcast, if it works out. I mean, this is a historic day in Preston Sprinkle podcast land. So, I'm just honored to be a part of it, really. So, it's an honor for me to have you on. Can you just clarify, expand on anything I said about the movement? I'm going to give a brief snapshot to what's been, I think, a 20-year whirlwind in your life. So, yeah. I don't know how long we have on the podcast, but I came on staff at a church called Bethel Church,

which some people wouldn't know, and right in California when I was 19. Oh, wow. In the youth ministry, I worked in the youth ministry, and then I became the head youth pastor at 21 years old. So this is in, I'm 42, so this was 1995. I came on staff in 97. I took over as youth pastor. When I came on, Bill Johnson had just become the pastor there, and we just really started experiencing what was called renewal, kind of the Toronto blessing and Brownsville was happening in Florida. And so I became the youth pastor.

I was on staff there for 18 years, 12 of those in youth ministry. And Jesus Culture really came out of our youth group. So we were a youth group, hungry for revival, hungry to see God do stuff in our generation. And in 1999, this is why it'll come up on our 20-year anniversary next year. In 1999, we decided to put on a youth conference, and we called it Jesus Culture. Just randomly, we were looking for the name of a, we wanted to name a conference. And there was a skater brand called

counterculture and i was walking in the mall and saw a hat that said counterculture and i said man i love that concept of raising up a generation that's counterculture but i just don't want to be counterculture we wanted to be a jesus culture like not just counterculture for counterculture sake we want to be about Jesus and the Jesus culture. So we named the conference Jesus culture, didn't think much of it. And then, uh, and then we started doing conferences every year and the name kind of started catching on. And then a worship is really, when you say worship, almost everybody would know us for the worship, which was unintentional,

was not planned. It was just, these were our youth group worship leaders, legitimately. So if you know our world at all, we've got two. There's a bunch of worship leaders with us now, but there's two main ones, Kim Walker-Smith and Chris Kilala. Kim is 36 years old. She had just moved to Reading when she was 18. She had just gotten saved and got involved in our youth group.

Chris Kilala, who's 35 was 12 when i started youth ministry really your high kid so he was in my wedding when he was 14 years old oh my so so he's my first ever spiritual son type deal so anyways these were just our youth group worship leaders and a couple years you know we've been doing conferences and we said we were encountering god in such a profound way in worship that we said we should record an album. Again, we didn't even know you could do this type of stuff. iTunes wasn't around as much. YouTube didn't really exist as much.

So we said, let's record an album. And we were hoping that maybe people could encounter God the same way we were encountering him in the conference. So we put an album out in 2006. And then in 2007, we put another one out, but we decided to do a DVD with it. Literally, one of our guys goes, let's do a DVD. I'm like, well, how do we do that? He goes, I don't know. Let's get some cameras.

And we borrowed a bunch of people's cameras. But that video, Kim sang a song called How He Loves. And some kid put it up on YouTube and it took off. This is before we knew you were viral and YouTube. It was, you know, this was like,

and it took off. And so that's why our worship so well known is worship just kind of became really the, the lead for us. But our hearts always been to mobilize a generation young for us. Now it's just you anymore, but to mobilize a generation for revival to ignite a passion for jesus in the hearts of people and um yeah so that's what we've been

going after now and again most people know us as worship but they don't even know like we call everything jesus culture too it's like should we call the the worship team jesus culture i wrote a book called jesus culture let's call the conferences jesus culture and now everybody thinks I'm like the sound guy for Jesus Culture. They're like, so you're with Jesus Culture. What are you, the sound guy? Like, kids are in my youth group. Oh, man. So we, we, well, let me back up really quick. So when I said it's more than a worship, it's just this whole like Jesus kind of movement. It involves youth. It involves conference.

It involves, I mean, your church and a really global worship movement. I mean, how would you, what's the kind of the quick one line kind of brand on what you're doing or description? Yeah, it's hard to capture one line. We've now planted a local church where three and where three, three and a half years ago, we planted a local church in Sacramento, but our passion is honestly, just to ignite our heart is to ignite a passion in the hearts of believers, believers to fall madly in love with Jesus and to go change the world. Wow. And again, we would use the word revival.

That in different circles means different things yeah um but but just that concept of we want to see people whether they stand you know and the reality is 98 percent of people i talk to uh we believe this a hundred percent of believers are called to change the world a hundred percent of believers are called to lead 98 standing behind a pulpit. So we just have a real heart to see wherever you're at. If you're in a boardroom, an operating room, a classroom,

a playing field, a stay at home mom and educate wherever you're at, that you would have a deep burning passion for Jesus and a desire to change the world. So, I mean, honestly, at our core of who we are,

we just want to see God move and we want to see people really embrace that. That's awesome, man. So, and then you planted the church. So what's that? Well, I mean, you've been a pastor for a number of youth pastors since the time you were 19. What's it like now pastoring? Because you're the lead pastor, senior pastor, now running a church along with all the Jesus culture stuff. I mean, is this, uh, you must have a lot of really capable people around you to keep you in touch.

Yeah. As you know, I mean, anything that gets done is cause there's a really amazing quality team of people and we do, we have a great team, but we're, we're not, we're pretty big diehard local church people. That's awesome. At the end of the day, what we're doing, even nationally, internationally, if it's not strengthening a local church, then we don't want to do it. So for us, we're very big local church people.

I have a huge passion for the role of the local church in the individual life of a believer and also in society, in cities, and in communities. So it's been a real joy. We've had a blast doing it. For us, church, community is so important to me. I really believe that healthy, mature believers, which I would say is the sanctification process, that our lives every day are being transformed by the power of the Holy spirit to look more like Jesus.

So that process of maturity or that process of sanctification or that process of health, I really believe that healthy, mature, thriving believers are planted in three soils. They're planted in the presence of God. They're planted in the word of God and they're planted in the Word of God, and they're planted in the family of God, the community of God. And those three things really do kind of, they're not just exclusively found when you gather as a local church. But you know, healthy believers are found in community, healthy believers are found in the Word of God,

healthy believers are found in. So we have a real passion for that, to walk with people and disciple and grow and see them empowered as well. Like go change your city, change wherever you're at. The local church is just so at the core and center of all of that, that we just have a real passion for it. That's so great because a lot of times these kind of movements can kind of go beyond the church or be almost become a replacement for the church. The fact that you're integrating the local church into this, I mean,

for lack of a better term is very successful movement in Jesus culture. That's, that's pretty, I mean, I hate to say it, that's pretty unique and I in a, in a really amazing way. That's, that's really special. So you, you came out of Bethel church, so I can't, we can't, I know hardly anything about Bethel. I've got friends that have, a good friend of mine, his son was part of the school, the supernatural, what's it called?

Yeah, supernatural school ministry. That one, yeah. I've had some friends that have gone there and, you know, if you've been in the Christian world, especially in America, Bethel can either be like, people can be super stoked about it or it can be a controversial uh movement or whatever so can you can you identify what is the controversy when people are like oh bethel like what what is the controversy and you having been inside and on staff at bethel for so many years like how much of that controversy is is legitimate um yeah well

i i love talking to you, Preston, because you've never encountered controversy in your ministry. My life's a cakewalk. I'll have to mentor you in this. And the little controversy that does surround me is completely accurate. A hundred percent. Oh, always. I really am. I'm a Nazi.

Yeah, always. Well, let me give a little bit of context if I could. Bethel Church, boy, Bill came in 95. So Bill Johnson is the pastor there, came in 1995. And this was when renewal, what I would say is renewal. I don't know if people would know that phrase, but there was this kind of outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Toronto in 94 and 95, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Brownsville. This was happening though in different parts of the world before this in Argentina and Brazil and different places where it's China.

But, but this stuff began to kind of this, God moving in this way began to break out in these places. And our pastor Bill just has a deep passion for revival. Like he has a deep, deep passion to see God move in the hearts of people and God move in cities. And so when he came, he came and the church was just a good, strong, charismatic church, but he came with renewal and renewal was a little bit, renewal is controversial in that there were manifestations and there was, you know, and again, so much of this stuff that people would have a problem with.

I'm like, I was there a long time and I never saw that, never heard that. Don't know what you're talking about with that. So what would be the stuff they would do? Well, in the early days, in the early days, there was manifestations going on. So there would be like people falling out in the spirit or people shaking or again, none of this is new. Like, if you really read church history, there's a reason why Quakers are called Quakers. Wesley's meetings were not that calm and nice. The second great awakening was, I'm just saying it's not as clean as we want to make history. But having said that, so a lot of

this stuff is happening, like the Holy spirit touching people in some outward manifestations were happening. Well, then all of a sudden it was like, people were like, well, people are barking like dogs and they're roaring like lions. And there was all this stuff.

You're like, uh, can't even know what you're talking about. So I'm just saying like, Bill has a real heart for revival. And at some level, in all honesty, and this is not a negative, he just doesn't care what people think. He cares what people, people can speak into his life,

but like he just wants to please God. Like that's his main passion. So just to give some context for that, then a school of ministry starts. So then a school of ministry starts. Bethel has, I don't want to butcher numbers, but something like 2,300 students in its school right now. It gets a new 1,200 to 1,400 students that come in every year. So you have a lot of young, zealous, passionate students that are there. And Bill is a supernatural guy. He believes in the power of God. He believes in the supernatural working of God. He believes in healing.

He believes it as part of the atonement and it is available and that we're to go out. So, so, uh, in deliverance, all that type of stuff. So he, so it's a supernatural charismatic environment. And then you put all these students into it that are zealous and young. And it's a very interesting combination of what's going on. And, and Bill does not want to control things. So students might be out in kind of the fringe on what,

like they're kind of like pressing into the supernatural in a way that's like, okay, that's weird, man. That's weird. But Bill is not going to publicly get up and start reprimanding everybody. We pastor it one-on-one. So I'll talk about some of that,

but I just need to give some context for kind of like, and I would say this much of the controversy surrounding Bethel is actually just people that have a problem with charismatics. So part of my concern is, is when I'm talking to people is is they're like going to read blogs or something. And I'll go like, I remember, I don't read much of this stuff,

honestly, because I've just, I'm just putting, I'm just trying to go do what God told me to do. But I remember I looked up on YouTube, like we had a video that we had produced and I haven't seen it yet. They're like, Oh,

we put it up on YouTube. So I go and I'm watching on YouTube. And then all down the right hand side is all these other videos about Jesus culture. I'm like, what are these? And I just started clicking on them and they're, everybody has a problem with us. Everybody has a problem with Jesus culture, but I'm like, who are these people? Yeah. Like, I don't know. Like, like it's just random people who have a problem with Jesus culture. Most of them have a problem with charismatics. Okay. You know what I'm saying?

Because I would say like, like our theology is a charismatic theology like many other churches bethel would just be more visible or bethel would have more of that supernatural happening kind of deal which is messy what you said to me is so telling when you said that uh bill doesn't want to control things and you have these young zealous people and if i could hear what you're saying sometimes young zealous people can maybe take things into a into maybe an extreme or start to explore things that you or the leadership may not be like oh we we wouldn't actually do that but if you're not going to police everything so well from the pulpit so we we pastor it i'll give you an example and again i don't know who your listeners are so they may think like this is they're all they're all over the map you're gonna have

charismatics non-charismatics well i'm a pretty normal guy so but but we were in staff one time and these students i don't even know where this came from but i was getting emails about this from my pastor friends from around the nation so and social media puts it all out there now but they were like putting um coins on the wall and they were stained and they're like oh man this is god this is supernatural and and because the coins were staying on the wall this is literally what happened and we're in a staff meeting going what that's weird why are you doing that? Like, you know, like somebody go pastor them and talk to them. Like, you know, students that are trying to walk through walls, you know, because it's in the Bible, right? So they walk through walls. They're trying to go practice walking through

walls and we're all, we all are like, uh, yeah, that's a little bit, that's a little out there, you know? I'm not going to pay for your broken nose. But the deal is, is that bill or is not going to get up from the pulpit because bill doesn't mind a little bit of mess. Okay. It was like where there's oxen there's mess. So, you know, I'm not going to get up because he doesn't want to shut down those that are really seeking. Right. And those that are really trying to press in for more of God,

he doesn't want to shut that stuff down by starting to get up and police everything from the pulpit. The problem is, and I don't know, one of the big controversies around Bethel is this gravestuckers thing. I don't even know if you've heard of this. I read about that. I think in a Christianity Today article. Okay, well, I'll address the Christianity Today article if you'd like. Okay. So this is one of those things like um you know some some students

or in the past like we have a real passion for history and revival history and men and women of god so whatever it is the whitfields and the wesleys and the luthers and you know the booths and then and then for us the john g lakes and the Coolmans and, and, and so we have a, you know, we have a, we, we read that stuff. We love that. It stirs us, inspires us. And so, you know, you know, like I don't know who would be a good example. I don't know who would have been over there. John Wesley, going to John Wesley's grave, you know, if you're over in England or Booth's grave,

just going to visit it and just praying at the grave, like, Lord, what General Booth did in the Salvation Army, God, do it again in our day and let us see a transformation happen in society like he did. Like just, you know, we'd go visit that and people might pray or whatever. And then it kind of, again, these are students. And then it kind of starts going like, all right, well, now they're laying on the grave, you know, which is kind of like that biblical thing of like, there's an, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a proponent for it.

I'm just saying like, hey, there was an anointing on Elijah, Elisha or Elijah. There was anointing on his grave that made the guy come back to life. And maybe there's an anointing. And then it started getting where like, I don't know, man, it was like getting, I don't know what students were doing, but, but it was weird. But that's the stuff that all of a sudden is blown up all over the place. And what they, and what they're wanting is for Bethel to respond to every controversy that

comes up, everything that everybody has a problem with, everything that every student might do, everything that somebody says. And again, I get me honest with you, even the Christianity Today article. Yeah. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, but there's two professors that are writing a book

on Bethel and what they say is the new apostolic reformation movement and the problem they have. So I didn't read the book, but I don't know if this is the article you're talking about, but Christianity Today comes out in the article, and it's an interview with these two authors. And I sat there, and I've been in this movement for a long time. Love Jesus, have a deep passion for the Word, have a deep passion for a community and people to be able to speak into our lives, love the body of Christ,

love the different expressions of the body of Christ, and those who don't even agree with my theology fully. I'm reading this article, and I'm like, I've been in this movement for 20 years, and I don't know who you're interviewing. I literally have never heard what you're talking about. Really? Wow. I've never from the pulpit once heard Bill say that he is an apostle and that this is a new apostolic reformation and that everybody else has to line up underneath us. I've never heard people, and I literally am like, I know all these people. I don't know who you're interviewing. But if you

sat down with a couple of these this is my problem right we go read blogs we go talk to disenfranchised jaded people yeah like it like it and and then that's the kind of it's just bad journalism at one level to be honest it's just bad journalism but but i'm like listen go talk to bill right like i'm like i've been I remember reading that article going, I've never even like heard what you're talking about. And I have been through every teaching and they want to say things like, um, you know, Bill teaches that Jesus was born again. And, and I'm like, I've been, I've sat for 20 years and I'm, again, his teaching that he does is, is around, um,

the fact that Jesus did everything fully man. So he was fully God. He didn't, he was fully God and fully man. We would have that theology, but that, but that everything he did on the earth, he, he did it as a man in right relationship with the holy spirit yeah so he was still god but he didn't rely on relationship because if he didn't then we you know if he was he was an example on the earth of how we're to live yeah yeah that that comes straight out of luke acts luke makes it explicit that jesus did this not because he was god but because he was relying on the Holy spirit.

I mean, so Bill's going after that thing. Cause Bill's saying, listen, if Jesus is doing these miracles as God, not as a man in right relationship with the Holy spirit, then we don't have to do the miracles because we're not God. But if Jesus was doing them as a man, fully surrendered and submitted to the Holy spirit,

then we have a responsibility to do that as well. But then they take that thing and then they want to go off on this thing. And it's crazy because I'm like, sometimes I've only been picketed one time in my life. I spoke at a Presbyterian church, which amazing pastor, love this guy, we're great friends. And he called me and said, hey, listen, you're going to get picketed. And I'm like, oh, but anyways, to get picketed. And I'm like, oh. But anyways, as I was driving out.

I'm famous. Yeah. As I was driving out, this lady, and honestly, my heart just broke for her, was standing there with a sign that said, Banning doesn't believe Jesus is God. Wow. And I just wanted to roll the window down and go, Hey, I can, I can clear this up right now.

If you'd like, like I can clear this up right now because I 100% believe he is. So sometimes it's that thing of like, there's just all this information going out and we're just reading sources that, and, and my heart is grief because I'm watching these videos and I'm like, I don't even know who these people are or what,

not credentials, but like who sent these people who are the ones that are saying hey you know what i mean and so we go read this stuff rather than just diving in and i'm telling people listen if you want to know what bill or like go read a couple of the books there's a ton of guys i've met they're like did i had a real problem and then i went and read the books i'm like yeah gosh there's nothing really i disagree with. Now, listen, I don't think everybody's going to agree with our theology. One of those, one of those things that people wouldn't agree with. And I've got some really good pastoral friends that disagree with me on this is, is that I believe it's God's will to heal everybody. I don't believe God uses sickness to teach us. I don't believe God uses sickness to shape everyone. Now, I don't know why everybody doesn't get healed. I have questions still,

but when I read scripture, I don't come away with another conclusion that somehow it's God's will to heal some, but not others. So again, some people would say, well, I don't think it's God's will to heal everybody. And I'm like, I get that. These are very godly, good people who don't come to that conclusion flippantly. And they would disagree with them. They might disagree with how much we emphasize the need for the supernatural, that the gospel is not the gospel without power. I would say this. I would say that the gospel is a gospel of power when you remove that yeah then then then it's not the gospel I'm reading about in Scripture some people may disagree with me on that it's fine but so so much of

this controversy and there is some weird stuff honestly I mean I'm just telling you I was there for a long time like revival this is there reading scripture this is my whole thing i i press and i'm not even giving a chance to interview me i'm just on my soapbox this is hopefully you can edit all this but when you really read scripture you know that if ananias and sapphires drop dead in a church today yeah i i'm not saying i'm not advocating for that i'm just saying if you really read like ananias and sapphira drop dead in church yeah because of and then if you read the old testament prophets there's weird like there is weird it's like god i don't quite have a box for this ezekiel would have been thrown in a mental hospital. I mean, I'm saying that I don't always think, I do think that there are things that I'm like, yeah,

I agree with you. I think that's weird. I think that students getting zealous and pushing that thing too far. And, and, and, and I would disagree. Then there's some people I'm like, oh, we just don't have the same theology. You don't agree with charismatics. But then there are some stuff that I'm like, guys, Jesus isn't as clean as we make him. When he was walking on the water, they were freaked out because they thought he was a ghost. Like, Jesus doesn't always show up in the package that we like or are we comfortable. So a lot of people are like, I just feel that makes me feel uncomfortable. And so I don't think it's Jesus.

I'm like, listen, if your version of whether it's Jesus or not Jesus is, I just don't feel comfortable. Then you're not reading the New Testament at some level, because Jesus showed up and made a lot of people uncomfortable. Yeah. So that's my, I don't know if you know, but I was raised in a John MacArthur environment. I went to the college, his college and the seminary. And it was probably toward the end of my seminary. So I know that whole side very well. Now that was 20 years ago. I would say toward the end of my seminary, I changed my view from cessationism to continuation.

Not through experience or nothing. I just, the biblical arguments to say that some gifts have ceased and others haven't were just terrible. They didn't follow their own exegetical stuff they were teaching us in class. I'm like, you're not following your own, like these biblical arguments are terrible.

And so I would say since then I have been a part of, or at least spoken in and been involved with a broad range of denominations all the way from like, you know, yeah. Anti charismatic kind of church all the way to very charismatic churches. And I was hyper charismatic. Yeah.

Most churches I've been in, in my ministry. Now I would say the majority, more than half would be charismatic churches. Yeah. Um, was in one of my favorite experiences was over in england at a soul survivor you know soul survivor yeah absolutely so i preached at that church and and a quality oh quality movement and individual

integrous full of character godly yeah the character there the way they just made my few hours i was at the church the way they loved on me and my family remember remember my kids names looked after us um there there was uh so i i've been prophesied over a ton and some i i gotta admit i mean sometimes i'm i'm not that impressed it's kind of these you know if i get one more prophecy about a waterfall that's so spiritually i don't know what to do with that. Like I don't, um, you know, and, and it's always positive and it's like, well, I've got a lot of sin in my life. I was like, I want you to call that out.

So I'm more motivated to repent. But I remember in that church, there was like three or four independent prophecies over me. And that Sunday morning, they were all the same and they were all, they were all true. Like they all, you know know it was right when i right before i lost my job at eternity bible college and started the center for faith sexual gender and all the prophecies independent where there's big changes that are going to happen in your life soon and and you know uh this is this is going to be good for the kingdom or something

like that and um so all that to say i i've i've been on the whole spectrum of the charismatic. And I've tried. So I would say on paper, I'm curious, like my theology would be charismatic. And I traveled to third world countries. And so I've experienced some crazy stuff. Even non-charismatic, like, oh, yeah, third world. It's good. We're okay with that.

Because we're okay with a little bit of a mess over there. We're okay with that. Because we're okay with, we're okay with a little bit of a mess over there. But I, you know, my tension, I,

cause I have been turned off by the abuses and I get, you know, or the flesh there's real, there are real, it's there. And I, you know, I get a lot of emails from people that were really, um,

they either lost their faith or their faith was really interrupted by being in charismatic environments where, you know, they were, they were, you know, almost forced, like you must believe in this, this,

this, and found out. So I've seen, but it's so helpful for you to, I love, well, the Bible is weird. There's talking snakes,

talking donkeys, people laying on their side for over a year, eating dung. There's, snakes, talking donkeys, people laying on their side for over a year eating dung. There's, I mean, there's just a lot of really handkerchiefs. People getting sick. Yeah. Yeah. Weird stuff. So I, even in my like, wow, that's weird.

I'm like, but they do have a verse to go to. It's not like they're, you know, I think it's weird to lay on a grave but i would have if if i was back in elisha's day i would have thought he was weird and i wouldn't know what to do i'm living in this tension of i do think there are abuses and things i'm like man this doesn't seem like it's of god but at the same time reading the bible and saying if if this happened if this happened today would i be weirded out like would i be weirded out with jesus and the spirit in the bible or you know am i wanting this more comfortable jesus and i don't i'm just i'm constantly wrestling wrestling with this so no and and listen i i i i how would i say this i very much, many people had been hurt by the excess or the abuse in the charismatic church.

It grieves my heart and whatever that is. And I would also say that for many people, even when it comes to what I would say, the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, the manifestations of people working, there's a ton of flesh in that. To say that somehow look at that going, that's all God is inaccurate. But here would be my challenge to people is there's just as much flesh sitting in a church that is quiet. We somehow want to equate flesh

just in that weird manifestation. But I'm like, we can't also then go, Hey, listen, there's, there are people sitting quiet every week in church, not, not being weird. And there's just as much flesh happening. Yeah. You know? And so it's that type of thing where we're like, I'm okay with this flesh. That's quiet. I'm just not okay with this flesh. It's loud. Well, every, I mean, you can go across the spectrum of Christianity.

Of course. And there's always going to be abuses or younger people that take it too far. So going back to, you know, I was raised in MacArthur circles. That's it. And you want to talk about excess. I mean, the little mini MacArthurite seminary students who would try to preach like him and act like him. And then the reputation actually became a massive problem.

The graduates of my seminary, there was a massive reputation of going in and splitting churches i think we had the highest rate of church splits because even though even though the professors would say look you go into a church don't make any changes for they would literally tell me seven years don't change anything seven years what they do they go in within three months they're they're you, changing that, doing this. You guys aren't biblical, da-da-da. Then the church blows up. And there's tons.

I've seen global shrapnel. I've been in Scotland. People come up and say, you went to Master's Seminary. Can you help me understand what happened here? We had this pastor come in. We went to church. Families were blown up. And so there's always going to be young, zealous people.

Any kind of movement in an excess direction, whether it's in a charismatic excess or a very anti charismatic. Well, this is what I remember a guy saying one time, he said, he said, most movements, the rep, the bad reputation they get, or, or the way it breaks down, it's not the it's not the top person or the one or top, you know, it's one or two layers, it's the three, four or five layers underneath to begin to carry that message. And it was very intriguing to me because there's a lot of movements that I'm like, you know, I'm a little uncomfortable. It's coming out of you. But then I go to the people that are actually teaching and I'm like,

no, no, that sounds pretty solid. And, and in the same with our movement. So we would have a grace message. Like we have a grace message, but I'm listening to some people that might come out, those younger guys that are layers down. And I'm like, where are you getting? Like, where are you getting what you're preaching? Like,

I, like you can't just come and take that one thing and not have the context around it. You can't have, you know what I'm saying? You've got to, like, there's other things involved. You can't just come and cherry pick a statement you want and then go

preach that. Like there's so much more around that or and so it's that type of thing of like yeah i agree there's a ton of people that i've heard come out of art play out of bethel and i'm like uh i'm not sure where you're getting that or why you would be quoting bill that way but you know i think that well you said that could only really happen on more of a intimate discipleship level. Even if you preach against it,

whatever from the top, like that has to be, but when you have movements that kind of blow up, it's almost impossible to kind of micromanage everything on the individual level. we got a lot of churches were hurt by us. And just actually, we met with pastors.

It was grieving because what would happen is, is we have a real heart for the body of Christ. Right. And Bethel is, is a unique place. And so, you know, we don't, we don't think that every church should be like Bethel, you know, Bill's, Bill's doing what he's called to do. And Bethel looks like what Bethel looks like, but people would come to a conference. They'd go back to their church and they'd go back arrogant. They'd go back to their church with this thing of like, uh, you know, Bethel's got a corner on the Holy Spirit.

Our church isn't hungry for the Holy Spirit. Our church isn't going after God. Our church isn't that. And all of a sudden, these pastors, people are going to our church and coming back. And what they're experiencing is people that think, are their churches dead and it's not hungry? I remember sending an email out to a bunch of friends up in the Pacific Northwest. I said, hey, guys, listen, I know there's been stuff. Anytime you have any questions, let me know, or any of the pastors that want to meet, man, let's meet. One of them took us up. I don't want

to name names, but he was second charge of a movement. He said, I'd love to meet. So he came down and we met. And that was one of the things he brought up. He said, listen, it's just hard. Our people come back and they're all thinking like, we're not hungry for the Holy Spirit. And just to be able to sit there and go, Oh gosh, that's so not our heart. We're so sorry to hear that. I don't know what to do about it at some level, because it's like, I don't know how to get up and then begin to go every time. I don't know who these people are that are doing this. Hey guys,

don't go back to your church. Don't do this. And now all of a sudden our meetings are turned into trying to like manage the people of a sudden our meetings are turned into trying to like manage the people walking away that have arrogance in their heart or don't want to honor their leaders or it's just a tough one it's a tough one to navigate like all of a sudden now we're just the people trying to manage all of the people that are we don't even know they're doing it had no idea they were going back to churches yeah and like acting like their church isn't hungry anymore. And that's not our heart.

Yeah, totally. That's, I can't tell you how helpful this is. Cause I, yeah, I've, I've,

um, Hey, Oh, real quick. So there's been some internet glitches. And just for my audience, that's my crappy internet at my house. The internet person out 15 times.

They keep saying you can't get any high. It's just, so I knew back to California, California. I might have to go to my buddy's office downtown. It's got a actual internet and do that. So I apologize. There's been a few glitches that's on my end.

We'll, we'll try to fix that in the future. But yeah, this has been so helpful because I totally get what you're, where you're coming from. And so even, even that point, I have seen certain types of expressions of

charismatic Christianity that equate our brand of charismatic Christianity with pursuing the Holy Spirit. And if you don't fit into what we're doing, then you're not really into the Holy Spirit. And you know what? I mean, to come to the defense of even like my MacArthur kind of background, man, they, they, they prayed for healing all the time. They just didn't believe theologically that there's somebody with the gift of healing. They didn't pray for healing.

When, when people got healed of cancer, they would say, praise God for that. They, I would say they did depend on the Holy spirit. They would equate the Holy spirit's power more to like personal morality or boldness gospel. Yeah.

Yeah. To say they, they not following the spirit. I'm like, man, that's just a little too strong. Like they talked about, they didn't just worship a,

you know, a binary God of father and son. I mean, they, they talk about the Holy spirit all the time. And, and yeah, so I,

that's really helpful that, you know, but, and to not, and listen, and that's really helpful that you know but and to not and listen and listen macarthur um you know at some level would definitely disagree with us on a bunch of areas but but but to honor hey you know he to honor him as a man of god as somebody who um has has Somebody who has done phenomenal work in biblical study and theology. Again, arrogance is in all movements, though, at some level. So that's just the arrogance that comes in. It's to say, we know it, you don't.

We're over here if you don't do it this way or whatever. And I just need some humility and the ability to celebrate one another. you know and i just like to see some humility and the ability to celebrate one another because i i would really tell you some people would think that some people would disagree with us like adamantly on some stuff but for the most part it's like we all actually really we all actually very much believe the same thing there's some words language is off sometimes it throws people off the prophetic even the prophetic i'm like when you really go i'm like i actually think you think i actually really believe that like they're like well god's speaking to me and me speaking for god something he told me like i'm

like i actually think you think god speaks to you too like you actually believe god speaks to you like there's a and whatever language you use of like, Oh, I just felt a moving in my heart or I just sensed God in this or whatever else. I'm like, okay, well the word prophetic is throwing you off. Right. And maybe whatever, but we believe God speaks to us. Obviously the written word is the final authority. We submit our lives to the written word uh that god's speaking to us in this still small voice or through dream it can't contradict the word right but to say that god

doesn't speak to me outside of the word it's not accurate like he walks with me he talks with me he prompts me you know and i think people believe that they just get hung up on a word that is so because i even my non very non-charismatic friends they still god speak in me you know sometimes they always qualify it well you know it's not an audible i'm like well i know it's you know but it's it's a yeah a movement of sense the spirit working in you and yeah i think some of this can be semantics i want to go back to something you oh go ahead go ahead no no so that that's it right i was just saying yeah just that that i think a lot of people agree with us and it's just we we all have a very similar theology. And sometimes, and this is going to maybe throw people off a little bit, but sometimes too, we're called to emphasize different things.

And they're not contradictory or they're not, but, but, you know, I remember Bill, one time we were in a meeting and this might help people as well, understand our environment. To understand the school of ministry is to help under a center environment the zeal there but to also understand that one time a pastor we had a great um a denomination that wasn't anti-charismatic but isn't fully you know isn't like us and we were in a leaders a pastor's gathering with him and i was with bill and pastor raised his hand and he said, he wasn't being antagonistic or belligerent. It was honest. He said, Hey, there's more to the kingdom than signs and wonders. And Bill said, Oh, I, he goes, I absolutely believe that, you know, just this, there's,

there's more to the kingdom than signs and wonders. He said, but he said, he said, we feel called to something when a body is deficient in a mineral. So if the body is deficient in a mineral so if the body is deficient in vitamin d you over emphasize vitamin d until the body becomes sufficient in it wow and so so he said we've we we are over emphasizing some areas because one of our mandates is is to raise the mineral level in the body of christ well you can go across the board with IHOP and prayer movement or whatever else. Like they're very overemphasizing this one area. And they've raised the water level in my life.

I do not sell everything and become a prayer missionary. But my life of prayer has risen because of their emphasis. And so sometimes, too i think people it's not a theological issue it's an emphasis issue they run into that they're like and i'm like we actually agree with the same thing we just are emphasizing something stronger than you are you're called to emphasize small groups i'm just making that you know you're called to emphasize whatever all of it is biblically based all of it comes from a deep care for scripture, like a deep care for scripture and our default mode. And again,

I think it's, and this is also my concern with the younger generation sometimes is the default mode is not, what does the word God say about this? So then in the charismatic world, the way we get in trouble is, is, is we are more, we're okay with feelings, you know, at some level we're like, feelings are all right. You know, you can express yourself and worship extravagantly and all that type of stuff.

But if you get a generation that is not firmly founded in the word that says, what does the word of God say about this? Then all of a sudden it's kind of just feelings based. Yeah. And that, yeah. So that's the, you're blowing apart stereotypes, man, with the charismatic leader who doesn't, you know, just kind of quotes a verse here and there, but it's really into, you know, whatever weird thing the spirit's doing today. And that's the, you know,

just in a few times we've hung out. Oh, by the way, your, uh, the Jesus culture hat that you gave, that you gave out at Axiom years ago was hands down my favorite hat. My kids thought I was cool again. I was on a boat on the Great Barrier Reef going out to a little island to go snorkeling. And for some stupid reason, I had my hat on blew right off so you got Jesus culture product on the Great Barrier Reef causing damage on the Great Barrier Reef. Thank you very much for that. I guess you're dying because of our hat. But that you know I remember just a few times you've hung out I instantly two things came to mind I said well three things

one I know you know Jesus culture big charismatic thing bethel whatever and i'm not i'm not you know uh turned off by that but like this guy is super normal i've been around some charismatics i'm like you're just kind of weird dude like i don't want my friends to meet you because they're gonna be like is that christianity i'm like this guy's super normal down to earth he's absolutely incredibly intelligent the last conversation at the table at axiom and stuff and just seeing you talk and push back in a gracious way i'm like man this guy's thoughtful and three excessively biblical yeah it's amazing dude that's like a lot of people would kind of assume with the brand or even maybe a bad experience with charismatic christianity that like like so

why is that why is that it wasn't really shocking, but I mean, some people would be like, Whoa, like he doesn't fit the mold. Like why, why, why can't somebody have a charismatic kind of bent or, or, you know, a brand of Christianity, but also be intelligent to be normal to love the word of God and go with the word of God. And you can, and I'll say this, I mean, we're kind of laying bare some care, you know, my charismatic roots and I, and I have a deep love for,

for my people. I really do. But my people, um, sometimes attract weird because it kind of can fit there. You know what I'm saying? They don't stand out as much, but also sometimes, and I say this with real love, I, I'm saying? They don't stand out as much. But also sometimes, and I say this with real love, I'm a pastor. I love people. And I love all different types of people. I don't need you to be hipster. I don't need you to be cool. I just love people. I love the different personalities of people. So you have to hear me when I say this.

It's full of love. But sometimes charismatics have socially unaware people as well. So sometimes the weird part isn't even a theology thing. It's just a socially unaware person. I'm around people sometimes, and this is a silly example. If you're not in our world, you won't get this. But there's like, you wouldn't run into this in our church, but in many of the charismatic renewal circles, there's people waving flags during worship.

So great. It was just people want to express their worship through waving a flag. I'm like, I'm fine with that. It's not unbiblical for you to wave a flag in worship. What do I care? So anyways, but anyways, but I've been like, you know, like the example I use is I'll be like in a lobby, just having a conversation with somebody. And then somebody wants to come and wave the flag over me, you know?

And it's like, in that moment, it's like, okay, this isn't a theology issue. It's just a socially unaware individual. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, it's just something that needs to be pastored. It goes, hey, bro, listen, it's not really the right time to come wave a flag over my head when I'm talking to somebody.

That's just weird. And it's not even that I'm opposed to flags. It's not even that I'm opposed to you expressing your worship extravagantly to God, but you are unaware of like, you know, and sometimes it is that thing. Like, I don't know if you know, Sean Bowles.

No, I would encourage people to go. Sean Bowles has a book called translating God. So he would be, he would, we would call him a prophet and he operates in the word of knowledge at a level that is unreal. It's guys I've been with him. I know him deeply. He's been with us. He is calling out people's names and addresses and middle names and kids' names. It's really crazy, right? It's a really high-level word of knowledge. A lot of the people that I've known that are like him in the

past are really good men and women. They're really godly people, but they're hard to relate to. They're so spiritual, and they're so there that I wouldn't sit down and have a conversation about a football game with you. You know what I'm saying? Because I don't quite know how to relate to you. And then Sean Bowles comes along, loves people, operates in a very high level prophetic gifting. And he's full on like, I can't wait for the next Avengers movie. Yeah. Play a video game. And I'm like, wow, look at you.

Like you're real and you're relatable and you're authentic. And yet you still operate at a high level in the things of the spirit. And I think that I think that it's totally possible. And again, I don't ever want to talk bad about people. Even the people that wave a flag over me. These are people that love God. They, you know,

they've got a passion for Jesus. They're just a little bit socially unaware sometimes. And they meet community to go, Hey, like there's some boundaries around. Yeah. And just to go back to my other point, there's a lot of weirdness and non charismatic,

conservative Baptist. Yeah, totally. just to go back to my other point, there's a lot of weirdness and non charismatic conservative Baptist. Oh, totally. Yeah, totally. I remember being at a conference and like, uh, this is so long ago.

The guy's probably not even live anymore, but I remember, uh, there was like a Q and a time and, usually people ask questions, right. You know, Q and a time.

And he would stand up and it's like, he wore a suit and tie and thus said the Lord, he'd read a verse and stand up and sit down, you know, like, all right. Yeah. I he wore you know suit and tie and thus saith the lord he'd read a verse and stand up and sit down you know like all right yeah i like you know john 522 but like what what is just is this is that like everybody's gonna look around like what was that all about you know and i love the word of god like thanks for reading the verse it was just kind of like what was that you know so we can't and we can't define a whole movement right by some of them maybe yeah yeah and i would say this as well i think very much and this would be something that bill taught

us in the early days is one it's messy but two you don't always know what's a wheat and a tear until you let it grow and so it's it's very interesting that sometimes we're like, we want to look at seeds and define what they are. And they're like, I don't know what that seed is yet. I got to see it grow. And if it grows and it's got a deeper love for Jesus and it's marriage is healthier, it's got a love for the word of God, you know, then I'm like, okay,

like we can judge some trees by fruit. The Bible lets us do this, but, but we don't even let it get to fruit. We're like, I don't like that seed. I don't like, and listen,

maybe it is a tear. Right. And see, and listen, wheat and tear grow side by side. Yeah. So I don't want to define a whole movement by some tears in the middle of it. And I also don't. What define something just in seed form.

That's the other thing. Sometimes, sometimes I think we want to look at an acorn and go, nope, that's not an oak tree. I'm like, well, just give us some time. Like he's got to give us some time. Like it says seed right now. And we want to, we want to like judge things in seed form. We want to judge things before we've allowed some things to grow.

And, and so sometimes, you know, and so, yeah, you're right. I don't, um,

there, there are some people that have hit, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to, this is gonna, uh, you don't have to,

you don't have to, you don't have to, I'm just saying some people have said some really horrible things about us, like really horrible things about us. So, uh, anyways, they said some horrible things about us.

And I'm like, I don't want to define a whole group of people by one person saying something about me. Like, I don't, you know, I like, like,

it just doesn't make sense to me to do that and there are really good people that are just doing the best they can and loving jesus and being faithful to the word so anyways well we're gonna be dramatic about us i'm just saying i don't want to define or judge entire things by one or two people that say something about me online. Man, Ben, I just want to thank you so much for your amazing heart for all these things, heart for Jesus. And with all the criticism, as I know, it can be tough, but man, the lives that you have touched,

let me just say the spirit of God through your, however you want to put it. Yeah, absolutely. I'm with you. And your team and all the people around you. But man, the last 20 years and what, so let's just say the Jesus Culture Movement has done, has touched a lot of lives and has brought a lot of people to Jesus. So that's amazing. Before we go, I want to mention a couple of your books. You wrote a book called Jesus Culture. Your latest book is rooted, I got the subtitle here, The Hidden Places Where God Develops You.

Can you just briefly talk about that book? That subtitle is so intriguing. Yeah, I take just that early life of David and try to really encourage people that when God plants a seed in your life, a word, a vision, a dream, a desire, whatever it is, when God plants a seed in your life, the next step is not fruit. The next step is roots. A lot of people get tripped up and are very frustrated in their walk with God because they don't have any context or clarity for how he works. So God doesn't start right away building, developing fruit in your life. He develops roots

in your life. And roots are, they're below the surface, they're hidden, they're messy, they're not linear. But when people go like, again, one of the things we say is God's not interested in developing your vision. God's interested in developing you. Because when he develops your life, your vision is just a natural outflow of a developed, healthy you. And God can develop you anywhere. He can develop you in a cubicle. He can develop you wherever he wants to develop you. So trying to really give people vision for that. When God plants something, it's a process that begins.

So the life of David, when Samuel came to him, he was preteen. It was almost 20 years later when he was 30 that he stepped into that thing. And God took those almost two decades to develop him so that he could step into what he called him to. And I talk about, so we talk about the process that God has us in. We've lost the concept of a process because we're no longer in agricultural age. We've lost the concept of a process because we're no longer in agricultural age. So we're like so frustrated when things aren't happening. When the reality is, is you plant a seed, it's seven years later, you get fruit.

Some nut trees are 20 years later. So you get that thing. And then what we walk through is this, is that God developed David in three soils, the field. So intimacy, you know, priorities, he developed in serving really learning that soil of serving, serving a bad King serving. So, so the soil of intimacy, the soil of serving, and then the cave, which is community. He stuck him in a cave with a bunch of messed up people and said, figure out community.

And so it's those things that God is developing your life in those three soils and just really giving people vision. My dog's barking. My dog is asking to be let out on that hole. Dude, this has been seriously so incredibly helpful. I'm going to be processing a lot of this. I'm sure I know this is going to be super helpful for a lot of my listeners.

I'll probably get some emails that I might forward you. Oh, no. Only good ones. Only good ones. So, I don't know what it is, but the people that listen to this podcast, they're the most amazing. Yeah. I literally don't get any...

I get tons of criticism elsewhere. I have podcasts. Yeah, they're hungry. It's all gratitude. And they love just honest conversations. Yeah. They just want to... They don't need everybody to agree with them or me to...

Yeah. They don't agree with me. They just want to think out loud with tough topics. So this is going to be just really, really helpful. Yeah. Thanks so much for being on the show. Thanks for having me on. And thanks for jumping into these topics.

It's always good. And I mean, I'm not just saying this, but so have appreciated the work that you're doing. So grateful for what you're leading in. We've sent our team to be with you. I've sat with you times. Every time I go away feeling stronger, better, our team is more enriched. So my dog is barking. The podcast needs to be over.

All right. I'm going to sign out, man man thanks so much for being on the show and thanks for watching or listening to Theology in the Raw we'll see you next time hey thanks so much for listening to the Theology in the Raw podcast if you'd like to submit a question you can email me at

chris at prestonsprinkle.com that's chris at prestonsprinkle.com if you're a patron supporter and you'd like to submit a question, you can do so through my Patreon page. You can submit a question there and I'll address it on the monthly Patreon only podcast. If you've benefited from the show and you'd like to become a Patreon supporter for as little as five bucks a month, then again, you can go to my Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. And lastly, if you'd like to check out our Grace Truth learning experience,

then you can go to the website centerforfaith.com, click on the resource link. And the Grace Truth experience is a great way to address the topic of faith, sexuality, and gender. It's great for small groups in particular, but even as an individual, it would be a great resource for you to go through. Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting, and we'll see you next time on Theology Noir.