Theology in the Raw - 646: #646 - A Conversation With David Bennett, author of A War of Loves

Episode Date: May 3, 2018

Learn more about David here, find David's new book available for preorder, and follow him on Twitter. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Follow him on Twitter @PrestonSprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Many listeners to Theology in a Raw have questions about faith, sexuality, and gender. I know because at least half of the questions that you send in to me to answer on the show have to do with this complex topic. I want to let you know about a resource that I've created or helped create to guide you through this conversation. It's called Grace Truth 1.0, five conversations every thoughtful Christian should have about faith, sexuality, and gender. And it's only available on our website, centerforfaith.com.

That's centerforfaith.com. Grace Truth 1.0 is a book, but it's more than a book. It's a small group study, but it's more than a small group study. I like to think of it as a small group learning experience. The book portion of this learning experience has five short chapters, or as I call them, conversations about various topics related to faith, sexuality, and gender. And then at the end of each conversation, there's a bunch of questions that you or your group can go through together. Now, I've been in education long enough to know that everyone's learning style

is different. This is why we created a series of high-quality educational videos that correspond to each of the five conversations in Grace Truth 1.0. Plus, if you want to go deeper into the conversation, we've also created optional podcasts and papers that allow you to go deeper into certain areas that are only briefly covered in Grace Truth 1.0. I am so excited about this resource and hope that you'll check it out and consider taking a group of people through it. Again, to purchase Grace Truth 1.0, you can go to our website, centerforfaith.com, and just click on the resource link. That's centerforfaith.com forward slash resources. Now, without further ado, welcome to Theology Narah.

Hello, friends of Theology Narah. I'm here with my friend, David Bennett, like a lot of people in the world today. I have never met David face-to-face in person, like tangibly, but we've talked like this a few times, and I have grown to be a massive fan of David Bennett. And when you listen to this interview, you will see why. So, David, thanks so much for being on the show. He is Skyping in, or I guess Zooming in from, why don't you start? Where are you right now? And then I will ask you a question about kind of your background. We'll go from there. Well, Preston, I just want to return the compliment. I'm currently in St. Andrews, Scotland, where I'm studying theology. It's been amazing under NT Wright.

And yeah, it's just been an incredible place for me. I'm just soaking up all the theology here and, you know, doing the student thing. But yeah, so. Why didn't you pick like a more well-known or better scholar to study? That's right. You know, I'm also here with Alan Torrance and other people. It's actually an incredible environment.

We've been super blessed. And I've been thinking through a lot of things to do with desire, same-sex desire, and looking through a lot of theological work. So I'm just about to finish the manuscript for A War of Loves as well, my book that's coming out. So I'm super excited that's going to happen today. So it'm just about to finish the manuscript for A War of Loves as well. My book that's coming out. So I'm super excited. That's going to happen today. So it's a special day. I get to speak to you, Preston, and the brink of handing it in. So it's great.

I love that you're studying under N.T. Wright and you're excited to talk to me. Take me home, Lord that that's just but you know it's funny as i've hung out with him once we had lunch together when i was passing through and he is the most down-to-earth real humble like he it's almost like he doesn't know who he is and he's so much fun like yeah in seminars everything like he'll just tell us what he really thinks and it's great that's awesome that's so cool david let's go back let's let's go back because you have

i mean an amazing testimony so uh let's go back pre-christ who were you uh pre-christ and what has god been doing in your life since then so before before I became a Christian, I was what you could term a kind of nightmarish queer activist that would kind of stamp down the halls of like events at university. I was organizing gay marriage march events, you know, shouting shame at all the activists. I was part of, you know, political factions and just my whole life was really centred around my identity as a gay man and wanting to have the rights that I saw were mine and that were part of my human dignity. And so for me, I saw Christianity very much as something

in the way of progress. And I imbibed this kind of worldview that was around me, that romantic love was the ultimate form of transcendence. And so when I was 14 years of age, I actually came out in a Christian Anglican school in Sydney, Australia, where I'm from. And, you know, it was quite a conservative environment. And there wasn't much spiritual life.

It was very much, you know, kind of Jesus, picture book Jesus. And I just couldn't relate because I felt like when I opened the Bible and read passages about homosexuality, I was disqualified from that relationship with God. And so I went on a spiritual quest at the age of 14. I ended up in a park when I was 15 with my boyfriend. You can read about this in The War of Loves. And there was a man who drove up. I was kissing my boyfriend. He'd given me an amber cross as a present and he was Russian Orthodox and this man had driven up on a motorbike and picked up a stone and thrown it

against my back as I was kissing my boyfriend and I just remember saying to myself like I will dedicate my whole life to destroying that kind of hatred like I will not allow that to exist. I will give everything to stop that. And it was so ironic that I was being given a cross, you know, like at that age, I didn't understand that actually, I think that this was God's symbol to me, that he loved me, and that Jesus died on the cross for me, and that he identified with that homophobia that I experienced. And so I couldn't see it though. At that age, I thought this cross was a symbol of my oppression. And I came to realize that it was actually a symbol of my acceptance into the

kingdom of God. But that was a long journey. When you got hit with that guy, that rock at you, I mean that, that type of posture, did you just associate that with Christianity? Like whether he was a Christian or not,

like whatever Christianity is, whatever that guy is that throws rocks, like they're kind of one in the same. It's just bigotry. Absolutely. Yes. And, you know, I heard my Christian uncles saying homophobic comments when I was 14.

You know, I heard homophobic comments everywhere really in the Christian school I was growing up in. And so, I mean, I don't want to be like the big victim, but it's hard. Like it is a real form of suffering. And I think there's not a lot of resources when you're that age to kind of cope with it.

And so, you know, with age, I've been able to find, and in the kingdom of God, I've been able to find that. But, you know, I didn't have that when I was 15, you know, and that's why I'm writing this book because I want other people to be able to have that resource so the book the book war of loves put out by Zondervan right yeah yeah and that's the so that's the manuscript you're turning in today um is there a date when it's going to come out is this like next fall or summer yeah so it should be late October to yeah this year so I'm super excited um one other part of my story I'd love to share with

you, Preston, is when I was 19 years of age. So in full flight, in my search to try and find love, trying to find romantic love, I was a serial monogamist. I ended up Christmas lunch 2008 at the family lunch table with my uncle, and we had a debate about the existence of God. Anyway, I was furious with him. I stormed out of the room, and he went away after that and was in the car with my aunt and told her that he saw the Holy Spirit over me and that I would be saved in three months' time. So he actually prophesied my salvation.

Yeah, so I have that kind of heritage in my family and I thought they were crazy fundamentalists at that time. So then three months later, I'm in a pub in central Sydney and I meet a filmmaker who was an alumna of my university and her film had made into the largest short film competition in the world and i was a student journalist and i wanted to interview her so i asked her when i saw her in this pub uh how did you make this film how did you get into the largest film competition in the world you know and you've just hit your 20s this is incredible and you know for me she was a symbol of the height of success in

the arts journalism communications world which I was in and so um she said to me well do you want the real answer interview answer I said what's the real answer and she said well it was God to which my face kind of scrunched up straight away. You know, it was like, oh, you know, Christians, these vile creatures, you know. And she said, well, do you think there's a God? And I said, well, I certainly think there's something out there, but not organized religion, certainly not Christianity. I mean, I'm gay and honey, don't even try. And to which she responded, have you experienced the love of God?

And I was just disarmed by this question it's like it just stopped me in my tracks and I said what do you mean experience the love of God and she said well if you haven't experienced love of God you don't know who you are you don't know like anything you have to experience his love like it changes you and she said you know and i was mr spiritual i'd sort in everything buddhism um you know wicker and neo-paganism all sorts of different places and um so you know i don't usually do this but my gosh i really feel the presence of God right now. And I have to pray for you. Like, I really have to pray for you. Wow. You know, and I'm sitting there with this, I'm going, I need to get away from this fundamentalist, like extremist, you know?

And another voice in my head was saying, no, this is real. You need to be open to this. You're a good agnostic. You know, you should be open to pray. You just don't know if God exists. So I said, well, look, you can pray for for me but i don't think anything's going to happen so she prayed for me and it was just incredible preston like this presence came on top of my head and there was like a vial of oil being poured over my head um and it just went all the way through my body and I was like something in me was like this

is what I've been searching for my whole life this is it and it's a lot upside down I remember saying to myself I know God's real and then I heard this voice this voice say do you want me the first question in John's gospel is what do you want? That's the first question Jesus asks. And so, um, again, this voice three, three times. And I said, yes. And then, well, God just broke into my life and he said, do you, you know, will you accept my son, Jesus as your Lord and savior? Um, and I just said, yes, it just came out of my my mouth you know this love that

i never experienced and i didn't know and i was kind of like oh no it's the christian god and i still had the sexuality question in my mind when i was experiencing this but i was like this is real and that changes everything wow Wow. And I think that, you know, if we haven't found a form of transcendence, that's higher than sexuality, why would you give it up? Right.

I mean, it's just crazy, you know, like, and it's because I found a higher love, a higher transcendence. Yeah. This presence of God that was imminent and real and with me, not just like out there as a concept that I got,

that I mined from a Bible, but a real living God who breathes into me and is living and that can provide intimacy for me. And that changes everything. So would you say, I mean, you know, Augustine and other Christian thinkers have connected our,

our sexual desires with our desire for god uh there's that saying it's it's credited to chesterton although it wasn't him that said it but like you know every man that rings the bell at a brothel is searching for god and um there's a catholic writer chris west chris west who's who makes a big deal out of our sexual desires or somehow yes our desire to be in the Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So would you, I mean, both experientially and you're also an academic and theologically, would you like say, absolutely, that's been true of your life and also, I guess, in the Bible? Well, yeah, it's interesting because I'm about to embark on a doctoral degree, hopefully at the University of Oxford. I've just accepted there.

And I think that the real area, like we had a revelation, we had theologies of revelation with Karl Barth and then theologies of hope with like Jürgen Moltmann and others. And now we're looking at the theologies of desire. And God, I believe by his spirit is pulling forth a deeper well of theology, a deeper well of Christian tradition to look at what human desire means.

And so that's really the question that I'm asking at St. Andrews. It's funny you ask that. Wow. Yeah. But I really think that desire is, you know, we have to come back as the church to this idea of asceticism and not a pagan asceticism where you're like denying yourself to look morally superior or to improve yourself um like a kind of semi-pelagian like impulse but the when desire responds to grace it's transformed and so when I experienced the grace of God my desires started to be transformed that didn't mean I stopped being same-sex attracted or gay

it didn't mean but the meaning of those desires changed and the way that the significance they had for me in my relationship with God were totally different. And suddenly, like, I think I discovered the glory and beauty of worshipping God. And for me, one of my favourite passages of scripture is the woman with the alabaster box. I mean, when she just breaks that over Jesus's feet, like, I can't think of anything greater in my life to do. And for me, I see my desires and celibacy in this whole journey as me breaking that alabaster box over Jesus's feet and saying, you know what, I'm going to trust you. I

don't understand why I'm gay. Science can't tell me ultimately and conclusively. Scripture tells me a bit, but not enough to live on. And like, you know, experiences taught me that god's real and that he loves me and that all together is enough to just trust him even though i can't see and i don't always understand why and you know living in a society that just does not understand me you know i feel like an alien sometimes you know i'm at parties and people like saying who have you dated well jesus the father um like i mean i think i have to take that desire for romance and and yeah we appropriate it to god otherwise it is a miserable existence you know like and i do think there's a divine romance. And we have to be careful.

We're not talking about a literal sexual desire for God, but we're talking about a desire that sex was created to reflect. Oh, that's good. That's a good distinction. It's not a one-to-one correlation, but they're sort of springing from the same

line in our hearts, right? Yeah. And the other thing I'd say, Preston, is how we have underestimated friendship. Yeah. I mean, I did. Even four or five years into my Christian walk, I was like, friendship, whatever. People are fickle. Unless there's a sexual drive and some kind of biological, you know, bringing together bodies, like people are never going to commit to each other in deep ways.

But I realized that in the kingdom of God and the Holy Spirit, there is actually a spirit to spirit connection. know, covenant love connection that can provide an intimacy that's actually greater than that of sexual or romantic desire. And that like breaks out categories. It's like- It's so counter-cultural. Not just counter-cultural, it's like just otherworldly, which it is. I mean- It is.

Yeah. And it's a heavenly love. And it makes me, like i've talked it was so funny like i was sitting down with some of my colleagues in ministry and we're talking about this and and they were like yeah i just find it i just struggle as a married heterosexual man to like believe in that and i was like wow you know and i think we have a crisis of faith in the church in terms of is this really real right so you know I had more I've had multiple friendships which I talk about in my book where I experienced this heavenly love and it freaked me out so I didn't have like I was like is this gay is this you know but no it was just friendship and closeness and affection that came from god and

holy spirit so yeah i totally think desire is where it's at theologically at the moment and where god is moving um yeah i i've heard uh so several of my gay friends who are pursuing celibacy say yeah uh you know i could live without sex but i can't live without love and intimacy and until the church kind of recognizes the difference, they're going to have a hard time being my family of love and intimacy. And also, I've talked to people that say in the same category that, sure, celibacy is not easy. There's times when it's incredibly difficult.

There's times when it's beautiful and joyful. And I'm like, yeah, it sounds a lot like every other relationship. But they said that when I have, and I would love for you to either agree or disagree. And if it doesn't resonate with you, I think it might, given what you've already said. But they say, when I'm experiencing deep, intimate, affectionate, non-erotic, same-sex relationships, that deep deep stuff late into the night early morning just that real rich stuff my sexual struggles or say my desire for sex is really diminished not gone away we're sexual beings it's always going to be there it's always a struggle

but like i i can say yeah if i have deep intimate relationships with friends like the real stuff man i i can genuinely say i'm flourishing relationally as as a human being have you had that same i i think those two sizes is both um a warning i would give and then a uh encouragement towards um the warning i would give and then a encouragement towards. The warning I would give is that, and this is where I would refer to Sarah Coakley, the Anglican theologian. She talks about this superficial first order of desire for like sex and belonging and, you know, money and, you know,

things that we need to survive and be human. And then the divine desire as the second order, deeper desire. And she says, we have to take our same sex desires or any kind of desire that has been affected by the fall and bring that into divine desire and let it be renewed and transformed. And when you do that, there's all sorts of things in the sanctification process, like rejection, hurt, pain. Everyone has these things. We all live in a fallen world.

And those things come up as you live a life, bringing those more superficial desires into obedience and submission to desire for God and his will, being a living sacrifice. So my warning is that you can't put all the pressure on your friend. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of gay celibate Christians put a lot of pressure on friendship and I go, Oh,

it's just something that you can't predict as well. And that's what makes it hard is it's not like a marriage where you're like, we've made a covenant. So what I recommend, my encouragement is to find a friend that is sanctified, that is wanting to follow Jesus, that is sold out for the gospel and ship into what will a covenant beloved friendship.

So I have a friend that I meet with once a year for three days and we will have the best time together. And we will talk through our deepest struggles and I go away just completely fed and ready for the next you know six months of ministry and then I have other friends that I have different kinds of friendships with but this particular friend I have a kind of special heavenly friendship with and yeah so I would caveat it in a context of discipleship and try to not make it a parallel to kind of secular romance, but just make it a natural part of me following Jesus. And then I would say, put the pressure on Jesus, seek like deep encounter with him. And I think this is where my charismatic side comes in. I believe we can encounter God all the time.

I don't like this idea that, you know, and God does take his presence away for times of growing and maturing and then come back. But he wants us to pursue him. He wants to romance our soul. Like he loves us and he will provide for the needs of intimacy. If I got to share one experience I had of that,

just to make it real, and not just an ideal. I was in my room one day back in Oxford when I was studying there, and I felt really like just not a first priority for my friends who were all kind of happy in their different ways. And I just wasn't a priority in anyone's life. And I'd also been really hurt by a church leader who didn't really understand me. And I'd been under a lot of pressure. And I was listening to IHOP in the States, just a song about a song of songs, the love of Jesus and the bride.

And as I was listening to that, like 3am at night, God came into my room and you know, like when God comes into your room, like it doesn't happen to me very often in that kind of direct sense, but it's like fear, you know, you're like,

Oh my gosh, you know, and he was there. And then, and I said, don't be afraid and then he said David I'm so sorry that the people I've called to love you haven't and that they've failed me in this I'm sorry and he said I love you and I can fulfill your needs

and you can trust me and I will continue to fulfill that need. And then I felt him actually come and embrace me and all the pain and all that, what I was feeling was taken away. And so there's that side where he does that. And that's amazing. And you have this close intimacy and I wouldn't want to give that up. I said to God, I'm happy not to be married

if I get to have that priority in my life for those intimate encounters. What would you say if somebody wants that kind of real almost tangible relationship with god but doesn't experience it doesn't have it they've tried and everything because i could be because people can hear what you're saying and say yeah man i would love that i i have never had that experience is it is it their fault is it just god sometimes chooses not to do that or that can be really difficult for somebody, you know,

to hear that and not have the same experience. Well, this is where I think we have to enter into the question of mystery. And there are things that can block intimacy with God. And we could do another podcast on that. I love to talk, but I think, you know, if you don't experience those kinds of things, God will provide in different ways. I mean,

he knows the desires of my heart and he knows how much I love to just have that direct, intimate touch from him. But if that's not how others relate to him, that's okay. And he'll provide in different ways. And I've had friends of mine who have vastly different personalities to me who don't have these kinds of experiences and God shows up for them in all sorts of different ways that fulfill them. So I would never want to make my experience ultimate,

you know, but I would just humbly kind of offer it up. The other thing is God won't take away your desire for your neighbor because he wants you to love your neighbor and he wants you to be pushed out towards your neighbor so that's the other struggle is that you know there was a time where i was like i just want you to take this away like i'll be just happy to be like by myself in a monastery i I'm good. Like you and me, God, no problem. You know, people, no, you know. And so I don't know,

there's just something about the walk of celibacy that takes you deep into these things. And I'm sure marriage does it in a different way, but yeah, so that's how I've processed it. I hope that's helpful. That's good. Let's shift gears a little bit. So right now you are, I mean,

you're a student at St. Andrews looking to go do a PhD at Oxford. You also work with Ravi Zacharias Ministries, right? Can you tell us about that? And the question I want to end up getting to is you understand the mind of an activist who hated Christianity and anything that that world represented. And now you're on the exact other side, and yet you're still a gay Christian. And for most of my audience that are probably straight, I would love for you to help us understand that. But first of all, tell us about your role and involvement with Ravi Zacharias Ministries.

That's a great question. Yeah. Well, first of all, I just love to say that Ravi's a fantastic man of God. I mean, I've known him behind closed doors and in the team, and he just is so passionate about raising up another next generation. And he's really been a spiritual father to me. That's so good to hear in an age when people have little, and I won't name any names, but goodness gracious, a lot of not very much trust in high profile Christian leaders. So thank you for saying that. Well, yeah, I mean, I think there's other issues there.

We can talk about it another time. But I think I've experienced, you know, a wonderful reception by RCAM. And it's been a place for me of safety and a place to really reflect with the team. And they're all so keen to understand this. They all love gay people. They love the LGBTQI community. They just want to know how to reach them, you know,

remove obstacles for them knowing Jesus. Like that's the whole motivation of what we do as a ministry. And so for me, like having gone through what I've gone through, like my greatest joy is to share that love that I've discovered and that's been revealed to me. So I just, I think, yeah,

it's been a great place. I suppose, what would you like to know about that i mean so i mean that's largely like an apologetic kind of ministry right so you so you're in environments where you're in front of crowds and everybody or a lot of people yeah disagree with you and are trying to show you why you're out to lunch and uh you're denying your real identity you've been, if I can say, jaded by this religious narrative that has convinced you

you shouldn't live out who you really are and all those things. I'm sure you've thought through. So yeah, what are some, I guess, what are some, let me say this, ask this. Help straight Christians understand what is going in the mind of the,

if I can say hostile, real aggressive gay activist that doesn't really want to dialogue. And you say, no, I love you. I don't hear my heart. I'm not a bigot. And they're just don't almost want to hear it.

Cause I know that can be frustrating for Christians. They're like saying, I'm okay. Somebody hit a hit you with a rock. I would never do that. Like, that's insane. Don't associate me with that. But then sometimes it's just so abrasive and nobody's really listening

and the straight Christian gets frustrated and the other person gets even more hostile. So help us understand the mindset. What's going on there? Well, the first thing I'd say is whenever I meet another LGBTQI person that is thinking about faith faith I just listen a lot good and I'm very slow to say anything I mean obviously that's easier for me because I've probably just given a talk and so they know kind of where I'm at

and right um and they love that I don't shy back from the word gay or from calling myself a celibate gay christian they feel like okay there's a bridge there okay he might you know agree with that stuff that i don't agree with but we can at least dialogue and so that provides an evangelistic platform um that's really important um and i'm just i've found it really hard in and just some contexts just don't have patience for that but I think we really need to do deeper thinking on on that level of how we do mission and how we reach because I'm motivated by that question um I want to meet I want other people in those pubs that I would I'm you know

I was in to meet those to meet Jesus so yeah I would say that one of the ways, so the first thing is listen. The second thing is I always, everything I do is based off Jesus's model of ministry. I try to do everything as closely as I can to him. So he, when he was with the Samaritan woman, he offered her what she was actually looking for in that more superficial level of desire so she was looking for experience and romance and something other and transcendent you know and he's like here's the living water i'm a prophet but i'm not just a prophet i'm actually the messiah and then tells her everything she you know. And so he meets her needs. And I think we're there to meet that need first before we're to talk about anything ethical.

And then they have a discussion about the mountain and where, you know, where he prays, you know, Syria or Jerusalem, and he says Jerusalem. So he doesn't change the truth but the way he enters that conversation is to put the other absolutely first and to humbly put yourself second um and that can be hard and that doesn't always come naturally and if you don't do it like it's okay god's grace is going to cover it and sometimes you could do that and there's still going to be resistance. There's so much deep pain and trauma

that you are just a walking trigger by existing as a Christian, right? Well, I can give an example. So I was on a university campus doing mission here in the UK and there was an interfaith dialogue on gay marriage. And straight away, the Christiansians are like no one go

no one share that you know just like david don't go and i was like i'm going like um you know you don't want to trigger something on capital you know and they're like social justice warriors will come after you and the world will end and you know and i'm just like just chill it's people like it's okay like um you know and you know, and, and I think sometimes there's this fear reaction that Christians have and it doesn't help. And then the Christians put their head in the sand because they're so afraid. And then it's like gay people just sense that as a lack of love and then just walk away. So I think sometimes you have to take slight risks to break the ice, you know? And so I went and I shared honestly my perspective that, you know,

I didn't believe that gay marriage ontologically exists in the church and that I'm not interested in talking about the state or politics, but I'm here to represent faith and Christian faith. And here's why. And I gave my, and I said, you know, I'm a celibate gay man and blah, blah, blah. And there was an activist there. And after gave my, and I said, you know, I'm a celibate gay man and blah, blah, blah. And there was an activist there. And after telling him all of this, he just looked at me and he goes, hmm, I suppose sex does get a little old after a while. And I just said, well, honey, worshipping Jesus doesn't, you know, everyone just cracked

up in the room and like, oh, everyone was relaxed after that. And, and it just broke the ice. So people could really talk honestly. And many people in that room became Christians because I just shared honestly what I thought. And I mean, of course, it's easy for me to say that. And I have that subjectivity where I can be a gay celibate man and talk from that perspective. So it makes it easier for me. And so I get that it's even harder for people that don't have that experience but I think if you can just like pick up some resources read some stories like Wesley Hill mine you know the work you've done and just really dig into that and just spend that like week or two really thinking about this issue and going through it with Jesus and then being an effective witness and pointing to those stories.

So, yeah, that radical identification with where the person's at and radical differentiation of holiness. I'm different and I'm a Christian and that means something different. And I think those two are under attack on the conservative and liberal side. Don't radically identify on the conservative and liberal side don't radically identify oh you know on the conservative side and then don't radically differentiate on the liberal side you know so i don't like any side of those i just like the kingdom i want to ask a specific question because i you've you've been sorry touching on it but for some of my audience audience, they may not pick up on it,

but you identify as a gay Christian. You believe in a historically Christian view of marriage and sexuality. Why don't you identify as, you know, a same-sex attracted Christian? Like why the gay label? Because this has been, as you know,

a growing debate in the church and even it's it's usually the first question that comes up like okay i get everything you're saying but i'm just not quite there to you know why do they why do they they have to say they're they're a gay christian you know why not just say you're a christian or whatever um well this this question changed for me when i listened to a gay Holocaust survivor, the last living gay Holocaust survivor. And I was there when he presented his book in France, studying, and his biography died a year later. It's called Le Triangle Rose, which is like the pink triangle. His last name is Brazda.

And I was the only Christian to my knowledge in the room and i just remember god saying to me never forget never forget this suffering never forget this reality because it's the it's the scar tissue through which i will shine my glory into the world wow and i don't want to deny the scar tissue. I don't want to deny my fallen brokenness and I don't want to deny the goodness of my desire for companionship and intimacy. I want them to be complexly related in my identity and that I'm a now but not yet person. Like I'm waiting for the final day when there won't be same-sex desire

and whatever, but now I have to live and have to accept myself and I need a frame in which to understand myself. So the word same-sex attracted for me just feels very much like a medicalizing word. And so in my studies, I've looked at how like gay identity developed and the history of it. And for me, it's kind of attached to that that for me same-sex attracted or even homosexuality really comes from like medical

discourse that like try to pathologize gay people and say that they were like you know this horrible species um and that they kind of became the scapegoat of a post-war world that needed to take things up. So I think gay, for me, feels more positive. It's a celebration that you don't, to be gay does not mean you have to agree with gay sex or gay sexual expression. And I've had a lot of rights activists saying to me,

you can't call yourself gay. Right. And then I get Christians me you can't call yourself gay right um and then i get christians saying you can't i'm trying to redefine uh that category so that there's space for people like me to actually have a public identity um and not to make that my ultimate identity but for that to be honestly part of my story um but i am happy to kind of include same-sex attracted at the same time i'm happy to in certain contexts where people just can't understand that and that's just gonna freak them out i'll just be like i'm same-sex attracted i just i feel like it's almost for gay people same-sex

attracted people it's almost annoying because it's like i just want to be known like and i just want to i just don't want to be like like analyzed to death or have to justify myself and I kind of just feel like let's all just be quiet for a second and just listen to each other um yeah so I really think that a lot of how fast these conversations happen recently has been the worst thing that could happen and it's really grieved my heart and I've really struggled with it if I'm honest, Preston,

but I just know Jesus, Jesus loves gay people. Jesus loves all of us. And that just keeps me going. And so I don't know. I hope that helps. Yeah. I mean,

from my vantage point in my public published works, I've been very okay with the gay identity. I have given the one caveat that i think well you just gave like you know language you need when you're using language you need to think through not just what you mean by terms but how those terms are going to be received under their end so i tell i i don't tell i'm straight and i feel always nervous giving like here's what you should do i mean who am I to, you know, but my advice to people or encouragement or,

you know, Hey, think about this. If you're like you said, if you're in a really conservative environment, if you went and spoke at, you know, a conservative church here in Boise and he said, hi,

you know, my name is David. I'm a gay Christian. I'm going to talk, you know, you're going to lose 80% of the audience, you know? And like,

even if you explain it, it may take you a half hour over or maybe two hours over lunch one for them because even when i explain it i think i'm making perfect sense and it's just it's a for some people it's a it's a it's a really big leap to say okay i can i can see how that well yeah there's yeah, there's other terms that have been developed, like side A, side B, side Y, and side X. And I kind of get why that's been developed. I don't really like the term side

because I think it might instill conflict in those different categories. And I talk about that in my book as well. I have a whole chapter on that. I don't like side A, side B. I mean, it just seems to you know here's option one option two they're both on equal planes flip a coin which one you like just i don't there's a historically christian position and a very radical challenge to that position but to say side a side b is just like it just puts it i think that's yeah that's something i've struggled with i i mean i feel like it's a little bit like for anyone to just come on the

scene and say hey here's some new terms you know yeah and just like recreate the wheel i've just felt like that's a little bit right like like i'd be careful like i would love to come up with some other schema but i think that's what's been developed. And so I kind of just mediate between all of it. And I just try to keep asserting what I actually am until language forms around what I am. Because I believe that Paul identified as a Roman citizen when he needed to for the purposes of the gospel. And I think that's one aspect of it.

The other aspect is that, you know, we just like need this, this kind of qualified, I'm going to get academic here, theological anthropology. We need to have a deep anthropology of what it means and be same-sex attracted and a christian and so i think this

is putting a task on the table in scholarly circles that instead of let's get out of the culture and let's really think what is the anthropology of same-sex desire what is it yeah actually and i think the problem with it is that it's an entanglement of a very good desire that is right at the heart of what it means to be made in the image of God and a fallen desire that doesn't compute with the kingdom of God. And so you have this kind of very delicate process of untangling the two in sanctification as a Christian. That's brilliant.

No, that is academic, but that... So if I can... Let me see if I understand correctly, because I know my audience probably has a thousand questions right now. Yeah. If they're watching, they can't ask. I can see you. I can see your hands going.

How did you see me? Are you saying that being gay or same-sex attract having same-sex desire that it is in part a product of the fall but it's also in part a reflection of being created in god's image like there's both a good and a bad to the desire like it could be a good desire just kind of gone wrong kind of like when i recognize you know i tell people you know people I'm straight, which means I'm attracted to 3.5 plus billion people on the planet. Now, I can't even recognize beauty in somebody of the opposite sex as an outflow of my straightness.

Now, that's not in a sense that's also a product of the fall because I'm also supposed to be oriented towards just one woman, which I'm not. I mean, that's where I'm trying to funnel my desires, but that's, you know. So, there is a kind of good and bad. The line between recognize a beautiful human being can so easily be intertwined with sin sin are you saying like a same-sex desire can be that too like you recognize the beauty of a man that can actually be a beautiful thing and a an Edenic you know good desire but then it can just easily kind of cross that line a little bit or it's kind of I don't know am I am i i'm trying to make sense yeah that's great well look i think what we have is like two different things so we

have like across less christianity which is kind of just like desire what is in your nature and just like god loves you and it's all fluffy duffy and i can't stand that it just annoys me like please come up with a better argument like can't you see that what you're saying actually doesn't work anyway it's like love is love like what does that mean like please caveat that sorry anyway it just annoys me and then um you know that you have the other side which is just like it's the cross and it's self-death and we're all gonna die you know this is a dramatic thing you know and you're like oh gosh i don't want to be a Christian. Um, you know, um, no, but like, actually there's a deeper way, the third way, um, which is Jesus's way, which is we were made for intimacy, joy, connection.

We were made for companionship. And so, um, Sarah Coakley says that like our desires are in via towards the kingdom of God. So we can never desire anything in and of itself. It must always be going back towards God and it must always be inflected back towards God. And so we need to diet the cross to all of our desires. I believe everything like money, sex, family, every desire you have needs to be brought under the lordship of christ and then transformed

into the kingdom logic and you see this happening all the time with jesus where he's you know saying if a part of your body causes you to sin cut it off what he means is like give it to god like let it be remade into what it's supposed to be. And we unfortunately we're in this tension where sometimes we're just going to desire things wrongly. And we've got to have the community of the body of Christ to embrace us in those moments. Like I really don't think you can carry your cross alone. Like Jesus couldn't carry his cross alone.

He needed Simon of Cyrene, you know, I mean, he needed John of Cyrene you know I mean he needed John there his beloved friend staring up at him I'm sure you know in that moment of betrayal and death and just that limit of just not having what is good and seeing you know he needed that friend to be there, you know? And so I think there's a deeper answer to all of this in the body of Christ. And I'm not going to say that I've got it all figured out, but I'm trying to,

I think just identifying the complexity of it's super helpful. Cause some people will say, is it part of the fall or not? And it's like, well, everything's kind of part of the fall and not, you know, like it's the, the line. If I could, if i could offer just something quickly i so another theological answer dietrich bonhoeffer talks about how we can't know nature as creation until we have jesus so the problem is everyone's trying to base their view of sexuality and desire off just nature yeah you know well it's not adam it's it's not adam and steve it's adam and

eve you know look at nature you know that kind of theology which i just think is terrible terrible and then you have the other side which is um it's internally to me what i feel it's who i am and it's like god loves me and i'm fearfully and wonderfully made and i'm fabulous which does you know you know and i'm like yes you are, but you're also broken and you're also a sinner like the rest of us and you're not better than any of us. Let's humble ourselves. So can you expand on that? And I'm speaking to myself because that's what I was like.

I thought I was better than the church. There's a side of pride as well in me that I did as an activist think I was better and I wasn't. And I had to discover that. So this nature idea, so what we need is Jesus to reveal who we are and what the world is as the word of God. And once that's happened, he, I'm going to use a big word, re-sacramentalizes nature to become what God originally intended it to be, creation. And that's what we need to do with our desires. And in that will be a self-death, the cross. And in that will be a self-resurrection.

And God will never resurrect you into the person who's supposed to be in a way that is against what he has revealed in his word. He just won't do it. Wow. You know, and I just feel like everyone's trying to like scramble around this. And I'm like, the resurrection reality does not have what I struggle with in it.

And it doesn't have what you struggle with in it. And we're going to be freed from these identities one day. So yeah, I could give you a sermon i'm gonna pull back the number one popular level question argument assumption that just pervades this discussion is you know uh we now know whether through science or experience, whatever, that some people are simply gay. That's how they are. It's how God created them to be.

And it's therefore unloving and ungodly to say, you shouldn't live out the way God created you to be. So how would you, I mean, you kind of already answered it a little bit, but how would you just succinctly, I'm sure that's come up in your debates and dialogues and stuff. Yeah. Well, I say to people a little bit like what was said to me in the pub,

like until you know Jesus, the question of your sexuality is secondary. Like something of that kind of personal significance, for me it has to come from the mouth of God. And again, this is why I'm charismatic and I believe God speaks and I need that direct communication. Because when I read the Bible I was like this is not enough for me to like I can kind of be a little bit tempted by what I read on those other arguments I mean it feels tempting I would be like oh life would be so much

easier you know but that is a temptation that is not good you know and so on the other side i think what i say is that um you need to know jesus first and you need to actually become a real christian before you can understand the nature of those desires so again nature can't be revealed as what it's supposed to be it needs to be recreated renewed through through the word of God, which is Jesus Christ in the scriptures. And that process takes time and love and patience. And it took me three and a half years before I was willing to be celibate. I thought celibacy was gross because I'd still signed up to the natural view that romantic love was everything.

And we see that in pagan society. The biggest cults and the most popular cults were always Aphrodite, Eros, you know, these big gods of love. I mean, that's, I'm was into the love gods,

you know, and I found the love God, you know? So it's like, you got to find that love God and you only find that love God in Jesus Christ. So that's the way we get there. That's the way we get there.

There's no other way. I got a book. I just got, um, it's, uh, Oh shoot. It's on theological anthropology.

It's a guide to the perplexed or something like that. It's like a basic overview of the, anyway, I was going to see if I got a pile of books on my ground, right on the ground right here that it's under somewhere. Here's my question. Okay. So let's,

I guess, uh, change the discussion just slightly and say, how do you view, think about, interact with affirming Christians? Because a lot of what we've been talking about is kind of like, here's the Christian way.

And here's a non-Christian kind of view of these things. But as you know, I mean, this is a lot of people are are i love jesus i'm sold out you know it's very hard for me yeah so how yeah how have you how have you interacted with people like that or um it's a really good there's so many things but i think the first thing i do is i see them as people made in God's image. I bet people who are equally as broken as me that I'm no better than them because I'm celibate or, you know, I believe what I believe.

And I believe that ultimately that to be faithful to Christ. So I try to be very careful in myself when I'm speaking to them to not elevate myself above because intellectually you could probably easily dismantle it and get a lot of cheers stuff depending on your conduct yeah i mean that's the thing that like you know rzm is so amazing because we just never want to do that to people ever that we're not interested in that we you know we're always interested in winning the person and not ultimately winning the argument if we had to choose we would always go with the person um and for me i have a deep empathy with side a people i completely understand where they're coming from i was there i was in gary relationships i've been in, you know, church wanting gay marriage to be part of the mainstream, wanting my relationship to be recognized, going up to the pastor frustrated

that they won't listen to me and that they're afraid of me and, you know, frustrated they won't hear about gay teen suicide and that they weren't you know all these things i've been there but the difference is jesus it all comes back to him and what he wants and his view like his revealed view to us and we're always trying to do our best to get around it whether we're conservative liberal all of those things every side of every human is trying to get away from what he's trying to say to us and i just think what i'd say to this side a is jesus has revealed will is so much better than bad celibacy you know i mean there is bad celibacy and it's dangerous, you know, and I would just humbly say, you know, I'm not saying that God is calling you to bad celibacy.

What do you mean by bad celibacy? Well, there's a kind of celibacy. I'm doing this to earn a cultural reward. I'm doing this to belong. I'm doing this so that my evangelical parents will accept me. I'm doing this so that I don't have to deal with all, you know, the biblical arguments and everything.

I'm just going to do nice, easy celibacy and run away from intimacy and just kind of, uh, it's all too much, you know? Um, and there's other versions of that. It's not just celibacy.

So I think celibacy has to be a Christian asceticism. It has to be, um, be a Christian asceticism. It has to be giving up something of the first order desire for the second order. It has to be, again, that going towards something greater. And so, I think for me with Side A Christians is I'm just, again, I try to listen to their story first. Now, the other side of this is that when I'm with a side, a Christian teacher, it's different. I'm in ministry.

They're in ministry. Scripture commands me in most instances, I will sometimes take them aside and say, look, you're a teacher. And I believe what you're teaching is false. And to actually like, I have to say this to you.

You're a false teacher. I'm happy to be like, I have to say this to you. You're a false teacher. I'm happy to be friends. I'm happy to talk across lines. Like I don't, but I'm just telling you and I'm warning you in the presence of Christ, like what you were teaching is wrong. And it's endangering the church of Jesus Christ. What's the response been like when you do that?

Just nothing. I have some, I don't always do that. I've only done that twice and it's i'm sharing this quite vulnerably with you but like i feel like i can't do that and love that person that is a teacher because the the expectation in scripture for teachers is so much higher and they're going to be judged on what they teach and so it's more because i love them not because i want to have any cultural superiority or,

and they may come and say that back to me and say, you're a false teacher. I'm like, great, let's be friends. So like there's that like very difficult line of, and I would only do that with people that I kind of know. And I've done that with a few of my side A friends,

not many. But yeah, you make a distinction between somebody who's teaching and somebody who's kind of just been yeah convinced of whatever but they're they're not like they're not the experts or it's like yeah it sounds good whatever they've been kind of convinced by the arguments yeah yeah and i think um i would want to respectfully dialogue in a christ-like way after that but you know i just want to make sure scripture is in the center of how we do this and scripture has recommendations and you know i want to imitate paul as he imitated christ i want to imitate john as he imitated christ you know christ rebukes people he didn't just you know

but he always did it in a humbly humble way he also accepted people and listened and asked them questions so i just yeah when i come into a dialogue i just try to be like jesus i just try in a humble way. He also accepted people and listened and asked them questions. So I just, yeah, when I come into a dialogue, I just try to be like Jesus. I just try to be as best, and sometimes I fail and sometimes people just don't agree. And sometimes I feel hurt. And, you know, I feel ignored quite honestly by a lot of the side A movement, not all, but a lot.

And I feel like my voice is marginalized and I feel like I'm being made into a minority within a minority. And I just, where's my place to just be comfortable with who I am and for my choice to be celebrated. And, you know, yeah, it's, it's hard. It's really hard, Preston. And I don't have an answer yet. I'm working towards getting some kind of answer to how to, you know, be, I think the thing I struggle with it is that Jesus has to be number one for our, for there to be unity.

And I'm not trying to say that side A people don't want Jesus to be number one in their lives, but I learned a lesson that changed my view on this is that if you don't fear the Lord, you can't love him. Your love's not real. And so for me, I came to a point where it's like, I think side A just doesn't have the fear of the Lord. Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm sure they do fear God in certain other ways that I don't, but like in this particular issue, they don't fear the Lord because fearing the Lord means you care about what God thinks first above your experience. I would say that. Yeah, I would, I would probably,

cause people are going to hear that and they're going to, what does Preston think about that? I've seen in my, in my experience, you know, a spectrum of that, you know, on my in my experience you know a spectrum of that you know on the one side you know people that are like look this is who i am this is what i believe there's smart not smart people out there that believe the same thing and there's nothing you know nothing you can

say it's going to convince me and they can find the arguments to convince them and but it's a real stubborn you know rightful like there's but then all the way on the other side i have met people that i think would be as far as i can tell you know genuinely convinced that the bible you know um does not prohibit same sex relationships and i think their arguments are bad and bad evidence and logical leaps and all this stuff and um and even then i would i would still say i don't know is this is it your desire driving your belief well it kind of is for everybody right but um but you know um and i won't name any i won't name any names but there's some side a christians i've talked with there there does seem to be some sense of you know humility

and like they they really oh yeah they really have just just like people with that yeah he's what i was thinking of like like he i don't know him well but every time i talk to him it's just like man i think he is if you're gonna be side a do it like just again i fully disagree with that i think it's like you i think it's false and destructively so i don't think there's some secondary issue but you know i think he genuinely came before god for a couple years and prayed and studied and studied and was willing to go where the text leads and uh and there's also yeah yeah this is my fault maybe some of the teachers too it's like well shame on the people who have you know created these arguments that are not accurate, but can be,

can be compelling if, especially if you have a desire to want to believe them. And so anyway, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, look, it's, it's very context specific. And I think that I wouldn't, I would see them as my brother and sister. I would love them. I would be like, I get it. But I would also want to have that challenge side to how I communicate as well.

And the prophetic edge. I'm a prophetic kind of person. I want truth so badly. I've been in deception. I've been not saved. I've been on the other side. And I just don't want people to live there. And I'm not saying that that's as simple like as that,

but there is like that in scripture everywhere, the prophetic voice, you know? And then you have, you know, people who are priests and they're trying to pastorally care for the church. And it's, it's really hard to do that.

I think that this issue, and I think what we have is a pastoral crisis where church leaders are like, it's just too hard. Like, how can I say to someone like, it's really, and this is like where Jesus has to, it has to be between the person and Jesus. And I'm just grateful that the Lord broke into my life the way he did. Cause I didn't think there'd be any other way for me to, to get where I'm at. And it's just such a joyful place.

I have so much joy, Preston. Like, like I haven't, I love God. And I just like, I love the life I have. I know it sounds crazy.

I wouldn't want it any other way. Like this is such a deep worship that I've experienced through all of this. And yeah, I just say to people, like there's a deeper way. There's a third way beyond side A, side B, all of this, yeah i just say to people like there's a deeper way there's a third way beyond side a side b all of this what you think you believe what i think i believe like let's just keep going let's let's pursue jesus let's go deeper like let's not be content with justice you know and yeah i i mean i said these before and they're intense but like i have to

balance those two things because that's how jesus was and i just don't want to like lose the edge of just like it's all fine it's relative truth like you know everything's just true for you and and i just don't think that works in moral reality and and in the kingdom of god like so yeah but it's an upside down kingdom we love with the truth. And the truth isn't truth without love. Love isn't love without truth. So just trying to stay in that narrow path and trying to engage with Side A and others.

I think one other thing I'd say that I found hard is actually often straight people who think they understand homosexuality or Christian faith and then try to tell me how to live my life and they often like have a side A view and I'm just like look okay like they're often the hardest whereas I find side A people um get it and they're like yeah I get why you concluded the way you did and I'm like I get why you concluded the way you did and i'm like i get why you concluded the way you did and that there's just this other side of just yeah acceptance um yeah and i'm a person of acceptance just accept you know yeah like i think yeah when this like side a allies come along it's that's always hard well it's funny you said that i mean i in my experience and this is

you said that i mean i in my experience and this is somewhat anecdotal but based on hundreds and hundreds of encounters personal encounters and other pastors and environments and stuff i would say the overwhelming majority of the most hostile people to a traditional view are younger straight christians my non-christian lgbt friends very christian of course you believe that you know and i know you know and and uh so for instance i have a pastor friend who passes a church in a real like one of the largest lgbt areas in america and it's a real one of those young hipster vibrant churches you know and um they have a they have a traditional view the church holds a traditional view of marriage but they they have an open policy on membership so they have like non-christian you know people leading worship you know a gay

lesbian doesn't matter but you know but the church still holds a view like the leadership and and they're not going to do gay marriages um and he said, you know, Preston, on any Sunday, probably 10% of my congregation is LGBTQI. I mean, it's, and I said, well, how does that, you know, when you end up, I go, well, I ask him, do you end up, you know, telling them what the church believes? He goes, yeah, I mean, I don't want to do the bait and switch, have them sit there for two years and not know.

So usually, you know, early on, I'll have a conversation with them and i said well do they just leave your church immediately you know and he kind of thought and he said you know what preston i haven't had a single actual lgbt person leave the church when they find out what the church believes on marriage they may be like whoa okay huh i gotta think about that others may be yeah okay i can still come is that you're not gonna hate me i'm not gonna throw anything at me well no we love you like if you need any help whatever like yeah but then he said this he said but you know i have had several people stomp off in anger and

leave and call me a bigot and hate monger and get really angry and leave when they find out every single one has been a straight christian not a single lgbt person left but the people that get really angry are straight people saying you're dehumanizing these people these are my friends and it's uh anyway i i what you said i mean when you and you said you've had a similar experience right so i mean you yeah i mean look i think we're coming into a space where there are going to be churches that disagree with say what we both agree with yeah um ultimately and and where there are going to be churches that disagree with, say, what we both agree with ultimately. And there are going to be people that go to those churches and there's space for people to live that way if they want to. And I think that, yeah, what you're picking up on is a kind of cultural phenomenon of media manipulation and this kind of popularizing of this.

And I find as a celibate gay Christian, quite frustrated, to be honest with how the media has dealt with this issue and how it's being politicized. It hasn't done me any favors. Yeah. Yeah. And it just puts like horrible pressure on people and it just makes it so

heated. And I mean, and, and, and there's not this slow pace that this issue really or question needs. And I want relationships with people who disagree with me. I don't want to just, you know,

I want people in the church that disagree with the church to be there, to be coming. So I disagreed with my church for three and a half years. And if anyone talked to me about gay marriage or anything like that, it would just kind of set me off so you know i think sorry i'm good um yeah so it's it's uh that that's a really important aspect i think um yeah of just being able to hold together to disagree agreeably and like say the hard stuff that shows you actually love that person um and i find people always come back to me when i've said the hard stuff and the reason i say the hard stuff is because other people said the hard stuff to me

and if they hadn't have done that i would never have progressed or grown in my walk with Christ. And so I can't like, you know, yeah, it's just, it's, it's like Jesus did it so well. We don't always do it perfectly and God's covering us by grace. And I do say like love covers a multitude of sins. Like if at the end of the day, everything fails just to love one another, like, you know know and yeah and that love is is in that tension yeah um and yeah i just think the church needs jesus to be here um but i think the thing is he's not but he's given us the holy spirit

and that's another difficult thing is like what what do we do with the Holy Spirit? He's here and he's our counselor and he can help us rule on things like this. He can give us wisdom. He can, but if we're not willing to offer our bodies up as living sacrifices and give everything up, he's just not going to reveal the will of God to us. And I think my,

my real message is beyond all this, like what is the ethic? And it's a bit of a distraction. Just give your whole self to God, like give in, surrender, and he will reveal the will of God. And I had to get to that point before I could work all of this out.

And actually in real fact, every Christian does. And I think we're held back by our culture from doing that. And so I'm excited to see a revival of holy living, of that kind of living. That's just laying down everything. I haven't done that yet. I'm like still working on it as well, but like my heart is that,

you know, I've been, you know, my, my inner motivation is to want to love God back. Yeah. I don't know. David, that's a great word to end on.

I can't believe how much time we, this is. Oh my gosh, sorry. No, I can keep going. But I've got other things to get to and I know you do too. Yeah. No, this is. Yeah, it's been a real pleasure. I have so many more questions, but we're going to have to do this again.

A quick reminder, the book is War of Loves, right? A War of Loves. Okay. A gay activist, sorry, the unexpected story of a gay activist discovering Jesus. So it's largely your story? Largely my story. And a lot of the reflections I've been giving

will be in the book that I've just been talking through with you so I can't wait to like dig into more conversation with you Preston. It's been awesome I'm so excited for that. October it's put out by Zondervan so I'm sure it'll be up on Amazon probably this summer you can pre-order it or is it up? It's probably not up yet

right? It's not up yet but it will be soon and hopefully have the details through. Yeah. So if you've enjoyed this conversation, you want to check out that book. If you want to support this show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, make a donation.

If you have been encouraged by this and other conversations, otherwise we'll see you next time on the show. Thanks, David. Thanks for us. Take care. otherwise we'll see you next time on the show thanks david thanks for us then take care hey thanks so much for listening to the theology in the raw podcast if you'd like to submit a question you can email me at chris at preston sprinkle.com that's chris at preston sprinkle.com

if you're a patron supporter and you'd like to submit a question, you can do so through my Patreon page. You can submit a question there and I'll address it on the monthly Patreon only podcast. If you've benefited from the show and you'd like to become a patron supporter for as little as five bucks a month, then again, you can go to my Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash theology in the

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