Theology in the Raw - 685: More Thoughts on the Revoice Controversy

Episode Date: August 6, 2018

On episode #685 of Theology in the Raw Preston talks about his experience at the 2018 Revoice Conference and some of the controversy surrounding the event. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

I am back from the Revoice conference and I was profoundly encouraged by what I saw. Despite all the criticism, Revoice is not on a slippery slope toward liberalism or sexual immorality. It was an eclectic gathering of radical Jesus followers clinging to Christ as they try to make sense of their faith, sexuality, or gender identity. I'm Preston Sprinkle and you're listening to Theology Narah. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Theology Narah. I'm going to spend this episode talking about the Revoice Conference.

But first, I want to give you a heads up on a few dates and places where I'll be speaking in the next few months. September 13th at John Brown University in Arkansas. That's at the northwestern corner of Arkansas. John Brown University, September 13th. September 25th in Los Angeles, California, doing a one-day leaders forum. That's Tuesday, September 25th. That's at Rocky Peak Church up in the corner of the valley in the North County of Los Angeles. September 27th in San Diego.

October 1st through the 3rd at the Foursquare North Pacific Conference. October 9th, 10th, and 11th in Dyer, Indiana, doing all kinds of stuff. And October 17th in Kent, Washington, doing a half-day leaders forum. November 6th in Houston, Texas, another one-day Leaders Forum, and also the Dallas gig that was up in the air has landed. We are going to be in Dallas. That's going to be either November 7th or 8th. The details are still being finalized,

but check my website for details on that as they get finalized. Denver, Colorado on November 12th. Again, doing a One Day Leaders Forum, November 13th or 14th in Denver as well, speaking at the Evangelical Theological Conference, and then have several things coming up for spring 2019. But it's so far away, we don't need to talk about that. If you're in the area, we'd love to see you there. Some of these events may be

closed events. I believe most, at least most of the ones are all open. Some have fees, some are free. So check out my website, PrestonSperger.com, the schedule page for more details. Also, if you are listening to the show and you're encouraged and helped by the show, and you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in a raw support to show for as little as five bucks a month. Five bucks a month gives you access to a Patreon only podcast that I shoot once a month. In fact, right after I record this podcast now, I'm going to hit record again and record my Patreon only podcast, which I believe I want to do an update on my view of women in church leadership, or often called women in ministry. And so that's not for the public.

That's going to be for those supporting the show at five bucks a month. At $10 a month, you get access to the free podcast and a monthly blog that I write only for my Patreon supporters. And at $25 a month, you get access to two Patreon-only podcasts and the blog. And you can support as much as you want, but those are kind of the main tiers of support. So that's patreon.com forward slash The Algenera. Okay, let's jump into my thoughts on the Revoice Conference. I'm going to assume most of you have heard about the Revoice Conference, and many of you have probably also followed some of the criticism. If you were completely unaware of anything that's going on, then I would maybe advise you to just kind of Google around and get up to speed on what all the hubbub is going on with the Revoice Conference. In short, Revoice is a, it's a conference,

but it's more than a conference. It's more like a movement that had its first annual conference last, well, yeah, about that time you're listening to this, maybe about 10, 7 to 10 days ago, July 26th through the 28th. The mission of Revoice is, according to the website, supporting, encouraging, and empowering gay, lesbian, same-sex attracted, and other LGBT Christians so that they can flourish while observing the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality. Okay, so the conference is designed to support Christians who believe that God designed marriage to be between a man and a woman and that all sexual relationships belong within that covenant bond. That is a core commitment of Revoice.

And it's designed as a place for people who still experience gender dysphoria, who still experience an attraction to the same sex. Like they're not straight for whatever reason, you know, that they're, they're still attracted to the same sex. Like they're not straight for whatever reason, you know, that they're, uh, they're still attracted to the same sex and it's a temptation. They, they, uh, they battle the temptation, whereas a straight person would battle the temptation of lusting after or wanting to have sex with, or having sex with somebody of the opposite sex outside of marriage. And that is a sin. Um, people who struggle with same sex-sex attraction, who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, whatever, while still observing a historic Christian sexual ethic, they struggle with the opposite. Well, the similar, the opposite.

They struggle with an attraction to people the same sex. Okay. So very much, I mean, this is a very biblical, very gospel saturated group of Christians. And I can speak firsthand because I was at the conference. I spoke at the conference that this conference was filled with many zealous Jesus followers. It was really a remarkable time. Let me say a few things, first of all, about the conference. And then I want to address some of the criticism. And I'm not going to keep doing this over and over. I did write a blog about a month ago titled Why I Support the Revoice Conference. You can check that out on the website centerforfaith.com. Go to the blog. You can read some of my written thoughts about the criticism. But let me just explain a few things here. First of all, when you think

about the Revoice Conference, you have to understand it's a diverse group. And that's something that almost all of the criticism just doesn't recognize. They talk about Revoice as some monolithic effort to, you know, want to force every Christian to accept the fact that, you know, Christians should identify as LGBT and not just SSA if they experience same-sex attraction. Revoice is not a monolithic group at all. In fact, I mean, at the conference, there were a lot of straight people there. There were quite a few parents there. In fact, I talked to a few parents who their kids had recently come out as gay and they're scrambling around trying to figure this out. And so they their son or daughter invited him to the conference that, hey, I'd like you to attend this with me.

And and, you know, we can just, you know, talk about this together. And and, you know, and it was really beautiful. I mean, these parents were just faithfully committed to their kids. And whenever a parent talks about their, their kid or child that came out, my, my first two questions are number one, how's their walk with Jesus? I mean, again, assuming that the child was, that the person talking to me as a Christian, how's their walk with Jesus? How's their faith commitment? Number one. Number two, how's your relationship with, with them? Has it been strained? Have you done anything that has kind of hindered that? Have they done anything that has severed the relationship? Or is it going

well? Are you walking together as a team trying to figure this out together? And it was so beautiful just to see these parents, you know, some with tears in their eyes talking about how, you know, it's been hard, but my child, my son, my daughter, they're walking with the Lord. I'm so excited. They're walking with the Lord. They're eager to pursue Jesus while experiencing an attraction to the same sex. The conference was fairly ethnically diverse. The speakers were fairly diverse. The sort of 400 people that attended, you know, it definitely was, it was heavily, uh, white, but it wasn't totally white. It wasn't like Idaho white or Montana white. Like there was a lot more diversity there than, than in many, you know, white dominant

churches in America. So that was, uh, exciting. We'd love to see more diversity, um, age, gender, theological background, a lot of diversity there. And even with questions related to same-sex attraction or gay identity or LGBTQ or all the people that are criticizing the conference for just promoting a gay identity. I mean, there were people there who identified as gay Christians. There were people who said, I don't identify as gay. I simply experience same-sex attraction, but I don't like using the term gay. In fact, there was, I personally know a few presenters that for them, they say, I don't identify as gay, even though I experienced same-sex attraction. So, so that again, it's a diverse, it's a diverse group. It is not, there's not like some strict doctrinal statement. Everybody must sign where they must say,

I will promote an LGBTQ identity. Like there was a lot of diversity at the conference. The tone was incredible. I mean, if you didn't go, I mean, yeah, you missed out. You missed out on an amazing Jesus-centered experience. I mean, it was just, the people were just absolutely wonderful. I mean, I just, I couldn't go, you know, five steps without getting into a really just kind and humble conversation with another human being. Some were parents of gay kids, some were gay kids, some were, you know, just figuring this out. And it was just, the tone was just fantastic. And I don't just mean nice and kind. I mean, I can go to a secular conference and it would be nice and kind, but it was nice. It was nice

and kind and humble, but also very Jesus centered, gospel centered. The worship was incredible. It was just so powerful to sit there with 400 Jesus followers singing and singing to God, these choruses, these hymns, a mixture of hymns and modern songs and everything in between. And just, you can just sense the authenticity because a lot of these people are clinging to Christ because Christ is all they have. And often, I mean, a lot of people there are in environments,

whether it's church environments or family environments where they don't feel understood. They feel like they don't know their place in the church, or I should say rather the church doesn't know where they belong. And so a lot of people came to this conference to be refreshed and came to this conference as maybe the first time in weeks or months or maybe years where they can be in a community filled with other radical Jesus followers who aren't judging them, who aren't looking at them funny, who aren't, you know, sitting there with blank stares and, you know, don't know what to say. Like they were there with a lot of people who understood them, who are seeking to follow Jesus as well and walk in the hard road of perhaps celibacy or, or, um, or, or staying in a mixed

orientation marriage or whatever. I mean, it was really cool to see the vibrancy of the conference as a whole. My personal highlights, uh, seeing some old friends. Um, I was going to give a shout out to some people, some names, but I'm always, I'm always nervous that I'm going to forget somebody. They're going to be totally offended. So that would probably happen. As I go through my sort of mental Rolodex, is that even a thing anymore? About old friends that I saw, I'm going to forget one or two. So anyway, I'm not going to say any names, but you know who you are.

Loved connecting with people that I only see once or twice a year. Some people I haven't seen in a long, in a longer time than that. Meeting some new friends, especially people who I feel like I know on social media. This was really cool. I mean, there's people that we talk on social media, we dialogue back and forth. I see them retweeting my stuff. And when I get, you know, hit by criticism, they're, they're right there to encourage me. I'm gonna get a lot of DMs, direct messages through Twitter that say, Hey man, saw how, you know, that person was just going after you and just praying for you. I'd love the work you're doing. Like to see those people face to face was so awesome. It was so great. That was a huge highlight for me.

Also, I had a lot of people, this was so encouraging and humbling and just such a blessing that so many people came up and said, Hey, thank you so much for the work you're doing. I've read your book and loved it, passed it on to other people. And so, you know, sometimes when I sit in my basement and record podcasts or write books and write a blog, sometimes you just don't know. Is this landing? Are people even reading this? Is this helpful? are people buying it, reading it and hating it? Or, or is it actually encouraging and challenging their faith, you know, and to hear from live people, embodied real people with eyes and noses and hair and, or sometimes no hair, you know, say the Reger book, loved it. Thank you so

much for the work you're doing. That was super refreshing for me. I, um, yeah. Yeah. Given the criticism that I do get in this conversation, which comes with, it's, it just comes with publicly speaking about face, sexuality, gender. It's just, this is why I signed up for it. So I'm not at all complaining. It's just, it is what it is, but it is nice to get the criticism sometimes balanced with some positive encouragement. Um, okay.. Okay, let's address the criticism of the Revoice Conference. First of all, it is important to understand that it is a broad range of criticism. I almost did the whole good, the bad, and the ugly thing, you know, like talked about the good criticism and the bad criticism and then the ugly criticism. But I often, as I

kind of went through some of the names and pushbacks and articles and blogs and tweets and so on, I was like, ah, a lot of these kind of have a mixture of all three. It's kind of hard to categorize them all. But I would say that there, there is good criticism of revoice. And by good, I still disagree with a lot of it. And there's still some things I'm challenged by. And look, I wouldn't, I mean, there's, as I said in the blog, and I've said, I think publicly several times, I mean, I get it. I understand some of the concerns being raised. And I think some of the concerns are good concerns. And no one at Revoice is like, nobody should ever have concerns, no pushbacks, no criticism allowed. I've never heard anybody at Revoice say that. They're just wanting people to understand what they're actually saying

and to deal with the arguments they are giving to justify the points that they're making. And I would say 50 to 99% of the criticism is based largely, if not completely on misunderstanding or not actually understanding what, yeah, the same misunderstanding and not understanding what, what, you know, proponents of revoice are actually saying. And again, a lot of criticism talks about revoice as some monolithic thing. Like it's a, an actual person with, you know, set views, you know, that are kind of listed A to Z on some doctrinal statement. I mean, again, Revoice is a diverse group of people wanting to come alongside, encourage, walk with, challenge same-sex attracted or LGBT Christians who believe in a historic Christian sexual ethic. And that's just, that can't, that can never be a monolithic group. Right? Right. I'm right. So, um, yeah, so, so the

criticism, some criticism is, I think, I think good, has some good points. Some is not so good. It like makes no attempt at all to understand and just makes all these assumptions that are just simply untrue about revoice as a diverse group. And some of the criticism is just downright ugly. We'll get to some of that in a second. One, oh yeah, and so let me, before I get into this, let me just say, I did what I rarely do. And I kind of went off on Twitter a little bit when I was flying home from the conference. And part of it was, you know, seeing just these beautiful faces of people seeking to follow Jesus hardcore and being misunderstood, being attacked by the church.

And they're still clinging to the scriptures, clinging to Jesus. And then I made the mistake of looking at my Twitter feed and, well, you know what I did? I actually went to the, I hardly, I've only done this like three times in my life. I, I went to the search function of Twitter, went to the hashtag Revoice18 to see, well, what were people saying about Revoice? I was like, oh my gosh. And I couldn't take it. I don't know. I just kind of snapped a little bit. And, um And here's the one thing I want to apologize for. There's probably several that I should. The big one was I retweeted some really horrific, caustic, kind of the ugliest of the ugly criticism of Revoice that happened to be the most active on Twitter at that time. And I implied, was it just implied or was it explicitly stated that if you criticize Revoice, that these are

your people, this is your tribe, that this kind of, you know, radical right or whatever, just radically idiotic group of people that were saying just nasty stuff in the name of Jesus. And I just was lumping all critics of revoice into the same camp as them. And I apologize for that. I've apologized on Facebook and Twitter, but in case you missed it, I think that was wrong. I do think there are healthy criticisms of revoice. I think there's pretty bad criticisms of the revoice that still wouldn't stoop to the level of what some of these Twitter critics stoop to. So I'm sorry for that. I, yeah, I don't want to broad brush. Well, I did. I broad brushed and I'm sorry. That's totally wrong of me. I don't like when people do that to me. So what are some

of the criticism? Well, one of the things that stands out is a lot of people, you know, they go onto the website, Revoice Us, and it lists, the website lists all the talks, the workshops that people did, right? And there's one talk in particular that every time I see people criticize Revoice, they seem to just cling to this one talk because the title is really provocative and the explanation of what the talk was about said some things that kind of fired people up. And, um, the, the talk is titled redeeming queer culture and adventure and adventure, um, is the subtitle. And it's sometimes been misspelled and adventure, like you're redeeming queer culture and you're redeeming adventure, which kind of butchers the whole meaning of the talk. But redeeming queer culture, that has really made people nervous. Like, you can't redeem queer

culture. Like, it's all awful. It's evil. It's from Satan. Like, this is just crazy. How can you talk positively about queer culture? So let me, let me just first of all, point out that this is one of many talks. I mean, there's several other talks that should have and would have resonated very much with the conservative critics of Revoice, like my friend, Lori Krieg, gave a talk on understanding the core needs. Her title of the talk was, What Do You Need? Understanding Core Needs. And if you know Lori at all, I mean, she is so insanely gospel centered. I mean, just off the chart, gospel centered. And she loves talking about our core needs are not even sexuality. It's a deeper longing for God.

Her whole mantra is the Augustine, you know, famous Augustine quote about our hearts are restless until we find our rest in thee, O Lord. Like you are our corny. Jesus is our corny. The gospels are corny. I didn't go to the talk, but I've heard her give that kind of talk many times over and it knocks your gospel socks off. Another panel discussion on mixed orientation marriages that work,

a panel discussion. Do you know how radical it is in today's world to talk about mixed orientation marriages, a gay person married to a straight person and saying in the next breath that they work, that some of them can and have worked? That is a radical statement, okay? That's just, I mean, I'm surprised they even worded it that way because that's going to set a lot of people off because a lot of them haven't worked and don't work. And some people view mixed orientation marriages on the same plane as like reparative therapy, like both are equally destructive. And here they had the gall to say, no, through Jesus, mixed orientations can work. Here's how these have worked. Another talk by Dr. Jay Sklar, Old Testament professor at Covenant Seminary, gave a talk,

So Why Can We Eat Shellfish? A look at Leviticus and how it relates to questions of sexuality today. And Jay argues very thoroughly that Leviticus 18, 22 and 2013 still applies to today. That's a, again, in the broad scheme of things, a rather radical and dare I say, traditional or conservative claim. Another talk by my friend Ty Weiss, experiencing intimacy with God and others as the antidote for shame in your sexuality. Focusing on intimacy with God and others is again, kind of like Lori's talk, the core need, the core way to battle shame. My talk was how to be a straight ally. And one of the

seven points that I gave on how to be a straight ally, one of the seven points and kind of how to do that is don't change your theology. Like believe you can love and honor and care for and be an ally of LGBTQ people without embracing same-sex marriage in the church. So to single out one talk, because you're kind of thrown off by the title, I think was a bit disingenuous, like at least acknowledge like, gosh, most of these talks look like they're very traditional and very orthodox in what they're saying. They're not on a slippery slope at all. In fact, they're not on a slippery slope at all. In fact, they're challenging kind of the cultural status quo in this conversation. Oh, but there's this one talk or maybe two talks or maybe even three or four talks

that I'm a little nervous about. Also, the people criticizing redeeming queer culture, that talk, most of them were criticizing it before he even gave the talk. They were basing it just on the summary, which will, well, yeah, let's get to that. Let's, what was the, um, uh, the summary of this talk? So Grant Hartley, who gave the talk in the summary, he's, he, he makes a statement rather than combing through and analyzing to find which parts of queer culture are to be rejected, to be redeemed, or to be received with joy. And then he quotes Acts 17, Paul and Mars Hill, where he seemed to embrace some aspects

of Greek Roman culture and literature, even in quotes and worldviews, and then critiques other parts. So rather than combing through and seeing which parts to reject and to be redeemed or to be received with joy, Christians have often discarded the virtues of queer culture along with the vices, which leaves culturally connected Christian sexual minorities torn between two cultures, two histories and two communities. Now, notice a few couple things here. He says parts of queer culture should be rejected.

says parts of queer culture should be rejected. Parts should be redeemed, which implies that there's a redemption that needs to be, uh, that needs to happen, like something wrong that needs to be fixed or parts that need to be received with joy. So it's like a third, third, third, like some things are reject. Some things are okay. That needs to be redeemed. And other parts are like just received with joy. He also talks about vices, not just virtues, but vices of queer culture. Now, as I think about this, I'm like, wait a minute, don't we do the same with American culture? I mean, American culture is filled with, I mean, unchecked consumerism, sexual idolatry, dehumanization of certain ethnic groups or minority groups. I mean, American culture has vices.

It has some virtues. There's parts to be rejected. There's parts that need to be redeemed. There's parts of American culture that need to be received with joy. That's what we do with any kind of culture. Christians living in Zimbabwe are going to say the same thing. Christians living in Saudi Arabia are going to say the same thing. And, and I mean, as we analyze any kind of culture, there's always going to be parts that

should be rejected, redeemed and received with joy. And so for him to do the same with queer culture just seems like a real honor to me. You know, as I look at queer culture, I see a lot of just, just amazing community. You ever, you ever hung out with a lot culture, I see a lot of just amazing community. You ever hung out with a lot of queer people, a lot of gay people, and seen how they have, how their bonds with each other are sometimes stronger than the strongest, you know, bloodline in a family? I mean, some of the gay people I hang out with, I mean, some of the most authentic people I've talked to. I mean, I talk to them within five minutes. They're going deep. They're going off.

They're, you know, talking about they're being very honest with their struggles. They're not sort of putting this mat, this thin veneer of a habit altogether in order to have a relationship. Some queer people and even queer culture can be incredibly generous and take care of people who are hurting. I mean, there's several things that anybody, if you experience it and go look at it, you can say, oh yeah, there's some good things about this.

Doesn't mean you adopt the entire culture, which again, Grant explicitly said we shouldn't do. There's vices along with virtue. So just, I didn't go to the talk. Okay. So I don't know what Grant actually said, but neither is anybody else criticizing it. So just based on where, where people are criticizing it, I'm like, I don't, I'm not even saying everything he said was great. Maybe I would have gone and said, nah, dude, I'm not with you there. I'm not with you there. Okay. That makes sense. So no, got to reject that. Let me think about that further.

Like I'm not, I'm not saying everything he said was great. I don't know. Probably wasn't. With any human talk, there's probably some parts to be rejected and criticized and, and adopted and thought through and so on and so forth. So I'm not at all just giving him a free pass. I have no clue what he ended up actually talking about. What I'm saying is that the critiques based on what he said in the, um, the, the little blurb, the abstract or whatever, I think are a bit, a bit over the top and harsh and misguided. So for instance, um, Al Mohler criticized this, um, the day of the conference, Al Mohler wasn't at the conference, but the day of the conference, he posted something that

criticized the conference and this talk. Now, let me give a massive caveat. I've got huge respect for Al Mohler, one of the most brilliant Christians I've ever been around. I've been around him a tiny bit, not like on a one-to-one, but just in conferences and stuff. The dude is like walking Google. Like, he is just insane. And I really respect his convictions. And we are on very similar theological pages on a lot of things, not everything. And those of you, you know, both me and Al Moore know where we would diverge, but

major respect for Al Moore. When he speaks, I listen. I don't always believe or accept everything he says. And I would think he would think that was a good thing, you know. But he did criticize this talk in the conference. And I want to walk through this because I would think he would think that was a good thing, you know. But he did criticize this talk and the conference. And I want to walk through this because I do think his criticism are among the most intelligent. So I'm trying to take like the best of the best and kind of point out where I still disagree with the criticism. Mueller says, consider this session summary from the conference. The session is entitled Redeeming Queer Culture and Adventure. So there's that typo.

I don't know if that's the editorial typo or whatever, but that's kind of botched the title of the talk. But he goes on to say, and we are told that it asks, what does queer culture and specifically queer literature and theory have to offer us who follow Christ? What queer treasure, honor, and glory will be brought into the new Jerusalem at the end of time. So he actually passes over here. Um, the, the part of the summary of that talk that I read that I think is, is much more understandable and I think should be really accepted by any thinking Christian. Here he camps out at kind of the, the worst part of the summary and doesn't connect it to the part that kind of gives this potentially, you know, sketchy part, um, it's, it's context. And again, this is the only talk that he referenced, which I just, maybe there's a word count of the article. I don't know, but I just wish he would

have said, look, it looks like there's a lot of talks here that seem great. Here's one that I'm kind of troubled by, but instead of, instead of that, he singles out the one and the average reader who doesn't go to the website of Revoice is going to think that this one talk and this one part of the summary of this one talk kind of captures the gist of Revoice. And that is just simply inaccurate. It misrepresents what's going on. Mueller goes on to say, this is shocking language. The organizers of the conference want to celebrate LGBTQ culture, even styled as queer culture while claiming to hold a biblical model of sexual morality. That, that statement is just not, it's just incorrect. It's just incorrect. Like this is one talk. This, this doesn't represent the organizers

of the conference. I mean, obviously the organizers, you know, said this talk should happen or whatever. But that doesn't mean that the that the organizers like me would would be you would embrace every little jot and tittle that Grant talked about. Again, there's diversity among the organizers of the conference. There's diversity among the organizers of the conference. And also notice the shift from, if you actually read the abstract of this talk, he talks about analyzing which parts should be rejected, redeemed, and received with joy. Sort out the vices from the virtues. He is not saying that the entire conference wants everybody to celebrate LGBTQ culture. No, he explicitly said parts are to be rejected, redeemed. There's vices and virtues again and again. So that, that's just, that again, some people are saying, oh, you guys just keep

saying we misrepresenting. We're not misrepresenting. You just don't like what we're saying. We're being biblically faithful and you're on a slippery slope and all this stuff. No, no, oh, you guys just keep saying we misrepresenting. We're not misrepresenting. You just don't like what we're saying. We're being biblically faithful and you're on a slippery slope and all this stuff. No, no, this misrepresents what is actually being said on the website explicitly. Moving from, you know, to analyze and reject and affirm, to celebrate even LGBTQ culture and to say that this talk kind of represents the entire organization or organizers of Revoice. Moeller goes on to say,

a closer look at the conference indicates that they want evangelicals to accept LGBTQ identity as permanent. That is simply not true. The conference was not a monolithic entity where it wants all evangelicals to accept LGBTQ identity as permanent.

There's several... the whole conference is not pushing towards that. Identity is permanent. I don't think even people who do say we are okay with people saying they're LGBTQ under the umbrella of a historical Christian sexual ethic, the whole idea of, and make sure you believe this is permanent and unchanging. No one can change their identity, not orientation, but identity. That's just, I don't know anybody at the conference who would go that far. But again, it's treating the entire conference as some monolithic thing.

And again, there's several speakers I know that spoke at the conference that don't even use or even particularly like the LGBTQ identity. They would say they experience same-sex attraction, or they would simply say, I identify as a male or female and my whatever temptations I struggle with are, you know, I don't wrap that up into, you know, when I describe who I am, I don't need to describe my sexual temptations. Mueller goes on to say, here's the problem. The Bible's teaching on sexual morality is not merely a matter of do's and don'ts. It is a comprehensive celebration of God's gift of sexuality and God's gift in making humanity in his image, male and female revealed at birth.

I don't know anybody at the conference who would disagree with that. Going on. know anybody at the conference who would disagree with that going on. It is a vision of God's intention in creation and his commands for how people, how his people are to receive this gift and holiness. Again, everybody at Revoice that I know that I talked to would agree with that. The gospel promises that in Christ, every believer becomes a new creature. Amen and amen. I don't know anybody who had the Revoice who would say no. Conversion is to be followed by obedience to Jesus. Amen and amen. And the ongoing work of sanctification.

Don't know anybody there who would disagree with that. There is no way that, there is no way that faithful Christians can celebrate what is contrary to Christ. Again, that he snuck in that word celebrate as if people are simply celebrating hook, line, and sinker, A to Z, 100% queer culture, or celebrating everything about what it means to be gay. That's just not true. That's not true. They don't say that or believe

it. There's no way that faithful Christians can celebrate what is contrary to Christ. Again, everybody at Reborn is like, amen. Let's close in prayer. Much less propose that any kind of sin or brokenness and brokenness, including sexual sin and brokenness, will receive honor and glory in the new Jerusalem. Now there, I think he is playing on Grant Hartley's talk, and I would have to go back and listen to Grant's talk to see, is he saying that sin and brokenness will receive honor, glory in the new Jerusalem. So I'm going to say, I don't know. I don't know if maybe some people would word it that way.

I know several that would not word it that way. Several leaders or whatever that are involved with Revoice. Mueller goes on to say, Christians are to find our identity, find our identity in Christ and not in any pattern of temptation. And there he's kind of hinting at the whole idea of identifying as a gay Christian. I would agree exactly. I would agree with what Moeller is saying here. I think here it gets into the meaning of what it means to say you're a gay Christian. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding with what people mean by that.

Moeller goes on to say, Paul makes this clear in 1 Corinthians 6.11, where the apostle speaks to the church honestly about sin and says, and such were some of you. The key word there is were. Christians do experience temptation and each Christian has his or her own pattern of temptation, but we are not to give into the temptation, nor are we to find our identity in any temptation to sin. Our identity is in Christ. nor are we to find our identity in any temptation to sin.

Our identity is in Christ. And that, that's that. So, so here's where the, to summarize Mueller's concerns and where a lot of other people have a problem with, um, the revoice conferences, they say that when you, when you say you're a gay Christian, then you are saying your identity is in your gayness, not in Jesus. And the response is from, and I don't and I don't want to speak for everybody here, but you can say that you are a gay Christian, just like you can say you're an American Christian or a white Christian or a male Christian or a husband or a father. Or maybe you can even say you're an alcoholic and maybe you can say, I haven't had a drink in 20 years. you're an alcoholic and maybe you can say, I haven't had a drink in 20 years. Doesn't mean you're saying I am an alcoholic, meaning that is your primary identity above all others.

And Jesus is sort of on the sidelines, you know, as some water boy, that's relatively insignificant to the game. That's not what people mean when they say, I am a gay Christian. They're simply using, again, I don't want to speak for everybody here, but people who hold to a traditional sexual ethic and also say, I am a gay Christian, if you ask them, are not saying this is what I trumpet everywhere. This is not the banner I wave. I am a gay Christian, you know, capital G-A-Y and lowercase C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A. I almost started singing that song, but I'll save you the horror. started singing that song, but I'll save you the horror. Um, so I, I could the term gay,

not be simply a synonym for same-sex attractive because most critics of revoiced will say you should, you can say you're same-sex attracted, but don't say you're gay. And what if gay is being used in the exact same way that people want them to use same-sex attraction, Ron Belgal, who is a leader of a Friendship, which is kind of like a like-minded organization that had a pre-conference session or series of talks before Revoice. And Ron Belgao is also associated with Revoice. He says this, when I say I'm gay, we do, when we say I'm gay, we do not mean that our sexual attractions are a defining or constitutive element in our identity. Okay. Boom. Settled. That's not what he means by it. People say being gay should not be a defining element in your identity. And Ron's saying, when we say this,

we're not saying that it is. Okay. Again, Belgal says, I do not think that gay describes any deep fact about who I am in Christ. Again, Belgal says both homosexual sex and homosexual lust are sins to be repented of. The desire for these is a temptation that must with the assistance of God's grace be resisted. Indeed, same sex lust must always be repented of and mortified. I mean, is there, do you, so either you still disagree with Ron, I don't know what any Christian would, any traditional, whatever Christian would have, I don't know what problem you would have with Ron's words here. But either you would, I guess, disagree with, still disagree with what he's saying, that's not good enough. Or you would say, or you would simply say, no, like when you say gay, you're not meaning all that. Like you think you are and you want to, but it still doesn't mean that. No, that just seems a bit disingenuous when you're saying, when he's saying, this is what I mean by the word. And critics say, no, you don't mean that. Like you could, you could say here, here's where legitimate criticisms could be.

Okay. Ron, I, I, I I get this is what you're saying. This is what you mean. But guess what? We live in a broader culture where the word gay typically doesn't mean what you want it to mean. That could be a legitimate criticism. in the first century, in the New Testament in particular, early Christians were actually quite fond of taking words that meant something to Greco-Roman ears or Jewish ears, taking them, gutting them, and infusing them with new gospel-centered meaning. I mean, the terms Lord, Messiah, salvation, kingdom of God, all these terms, all these concepts vital to the Christian identity meant something quite different in the Greco-Roman, uh, in the Greco-Roman world.

And Christians didn't say, oh, this, this word, we mean this by this word, but this means something different to the Greco-Roman audience. And so we're not going to use it because it could be confusing. Rather, they said, let's use the word. Let's give it new meaning because it actually can be a word that not only builds a bridge, but serves as a prophetic critique of what the audience thinks this word or concept means. One of my favorite ones is the use of nikao throughout the book of Revelation. Nikao, the noun is Nike, where we get Nike, means victory.

as Nike, where we get Nike, means victory. And in the Greco-Roman world, Nikao almost exclusively meant military victory or violent victory or overcoming power with power. And throughout the book of Revelation, the word Nikao is gutted and infused with new gospel-centered meaning that has to do with suffering as a means of defeating evil. And they literally take this word that was incredibly popular in the Greco-Roman world, and they just turn it on its head. It's like taking the word and giving a middle finger to how everybody else is using it. Is that too far? No, it's not too far. I mean, read Revelation. It actually is a sort of a massive middle finger to the political regimes and hierarchies of the day and saying,

yes, we are suffering for our faith. And guess what? We are destroying you through our suffering. We are conquering Satan. We are Nicao-ing Satan when we suffer. And they are taking a word and giving it a whole new meaning. So it is very much within the grain of first century Christianity to take words that mean something different in the broader culture and to infuse it with new meaning. These are not one-to-one

parallels. I'm not saying Nakao or kingdom of God or Messiah is the same as the word gay. All I'm saying is on a general level, it is a Christian, it is within the rhythm of Christianity, first century Christianity, to use words that do mean something to the broader culture, but to use that same word and use it in a different gospel centered way. Okay. Let's turn quickly to some of my Twitter fiasco. Okay. So I just, yeah, I want to walk through some of this and this gets to more of the uglier, darker, somewhat comical aspects of the criticism. When I got done with the revoice, I was feeling just really good about the conference, super stoked about just meeting

so many people and seeing Jesus flourish at this conference and yet still kind of reflecting on some of the criticism. And I, here's what I tweeted. I said, um, I just attended the Revoice 18 conference and looked everywhere for Satan, but couldn't find him. I did meet lots of people living out radical faithfulness, clinging to the scriptures, cherishing the cross and longing to be a part of the family. Jesus promised in Mark 10, 29 to 30. That was a, that's okay. So that's the end of my tweet.

And that last passage, Mark 10, 29 to 30 was how I ended my talk talking about, um, how we need to become the family of Christ for, well, for everybody, but in particular for single people and, or celibate gay Christians. Because that passage talks about Jesus promising us mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and fields in this present age as a reward for those who follow Jesus. And the last point of my talk was become the reward that Jesus promised. We need to become a family of believers where our spiritual kinship runs thicker than biological blood. So this elicited a lot of positive feedback.

People that said, thanks for coming. You know, it was great meeting you. Other people said, amen and amen. A lot of, you know, a lot of people liked it, but it did pull out some crazies from the woodwork that responded with just some, I mean, yeah, let me read you a couple of these. Um, this is from, I mean, these are public. Well, no, let's see. I think this guy might've, some of these, they went back and deleted it. So yeah, I had to go back and fish around and, and, and find them. But one guy, okay, so one guy says,

Preston, looking for Satan, lacks discernment. So grateful you are not a mentor to any of the hundreds I've known coming out of LGBTQ chaos, 32 plus years, who found real freedom. No fear of God. So this is what Matt Chandler and Francis Chan endorsed in the U.S. the best means, sad. So there they, this guy is very is what Matt Chandler and Francis Chan endorsed in the U.S. the best means? Sad. So there they, this guy is very disappointed that Matt Chandler and Francis Chan endorsed my work in the LGBT conversation. But apparently, you know, I'm looking for Satan in their lack discernment.

Another Twitter person, he tagged Nate Collins. Nate Collins has a PhD from Southern Seminary, is the leader of the Revoice Conference, the founder of it. He's married to a woman, has three kids. And this guy tags Nate Collins and says, you're married to a woman and you have kids. How embarrassing this all must be for her. Nate, time for you to repent of all things gay, queer, bi, etc. Now please go home, act like a man, a real man, a heterosexual man, be with your kids and love your wife. Wow. I mean, this is so over the top. I read this and I was like, I, so I, I read this tweet maybe an hour after I gave, um, Nate's wife, uh, Sarah Collins a hug. I mean, I've met her, I've, I've talked with her on the phone. She's a wonderful human being.

Just awesome. And Nate and Sarah have an amazing marriage. I mean, I would say their marriage from what I can tell. Okay. It's not like I'm like living in their bedroom or something from what I can tell is as healthy as any straight heterosexual marriage I can think of. They absolutely love each other. They're committed to each other. He talks about how he fell in love with Sarah,

even as a gay man and talks about their, their, their struggles, talks about their highlights. Nate is a wonderful father to his three kids. I mean, just their family is just really remarkable. And to read this tweet was just, I mean, it's so like off the chart ridiculous that it comes from a pastor. Actually, yeah, it comes from a pastor out in Florida. So, yeah, good luck with that.

But one of the best responses, and he got raked under the coals on Twitter, and I think rightly so. But the best response on Twitter was this. I am intensely critical of revoice. I fundamentally disagree with the majority of the stances presented, and I don't buy the I am this way, so I should have a more influential voice. Presuppositions of the talks I've seen. But your tweet is just awful. Coming from a fellow critic of Revoice. I mean, intensely critical of Revoice. Just said, this is just awful.

Another guy says, I'm noticing a pattern here. Number one, ban biblically faithful Christians from attending. Two, take down, reportedly take down videos of actual talks. And three, write off everything, every critique as misrepresentation. Okay. So here's, so his first criticism is ban biblically faithful Christians from attending. So apparently there was a few people that signed up to revoice and they were told later that they were not allowed to come and they were given their money back. So just so you know, the first two things I read, the one that called said I lacked discernment and was looking for Satan.

And the other guy who told Nate to repent from his gayness and become a real heterosexual man. And I'm sorry for your wife and kids. How embarrassing this must all be. The guy who basically was kind of like speaking in a very condescending way to about their wife and kids. And just, that was one of the guys who was, was banned from attending. That's the, okay. So that's the biblically faithful Christian. The guy who says you're married to a woman and have kids, how embarrassing this all must all be for her Nate time for you to repent from all things, gay, queer, bi.

Now, please go home. Act like a man, a real man, a heterosexual man. Be with your kids and love your wife. That's the biblically faithful Christian. That's apparently, according to this critic, that's biblically faithful Christianity. And apparently the 400 people that were at the conference, including myself and many others, are not biblically faithful Christians. Because this guy says, oh, they banned biblically faithful Christians from attending. No, they, they ban people who, I mean, people who say some of the most horrific, dark, ugly

things about the conference, the leaders of the conference, their wife and their kids. Oh my word. Another guy. Um, oh, oh, so here's another guy that got banned. He says, I had originally hoped to go to revoice 18, but Nate Collins kicked me and my friend, uh, friend out for merely wanting for merely wanting to observe, you know, like Nate observes Christianity. Okay. So that's, that's a, you know, kicking the crotch, but, um, I merely just want to go observe. So let me read you from the same guy a tweet a few days earlier.

Okay, so this guy, I just wanted to go observe and they kicked me out. I'm a biblically faithful Christian. They won't let me go. Here's what he said a few days earlier. Revoice is a tool of the enemy to bring an ungodly, unnecessary strife with their version of love and embracing so-called LGBTQ plus Christianity. They celebrate their gay selves as beautiful and lovely as written in Coles and Collins and Tushnet's books. There is no fear of God.

I just, I just want to go observe. And I, I'm just, I just want to go learn. I just want to learn. I'm not here. How, how can you ban me? How come I can't go now? Why didn't, why didn't you let me in? I can't believe you did this

This is crazy You just are trying to ban all biblically faithful Christians? Oh my gosh I mean, this is really insane So, do I need to keep going here? I don't think I need to keep going You can If you're interested

Well, it's kind of like It's kind of like the lewd lookers on the other side of the freeway who just can't stop but slow down and look at the accident. I mean, know it's going to be messy. Know it's going to be bloody. Know it's going to be ugly. But you just can't help but to look at it. So if that's you and you say, I feel like I need to see some of this garbage on Twitter, you can hashtag Revoice18 and see all the fun stuff. I mean, if anything, some of it's so off the chart, ridiculous, it's comical, but then you have to remind yourself, these are so-called Christians.

Like people looking on think that this is Christianity. Oh, and that's where, that's good. That's where it gets really tough. That's, you know, and a few people pointed that out in the Twitter exchange or like, no wonder people don't ever want to go to church. Like this does represent Christianity. So, anyway, that's my summary of revoice. The bottom line is, look, there's millions, literally, millions of LGBT plus or SSA, or what do you want to say? People who experience some level of same

sex attraction, who are in our churches, who believe in a historically Christian sexual ethic, how are we going to walk with them? Are we going to hold them to the line of, I'll walk with you, you can be in our church, but as long as you say you're SSA and not LGBT, are we going to draw the line in an acronym or what language to use? Isn't it enough that they believe in a historically Christian view of marriage and that they are submitting their sexuality, which is a daily struggle in the face of so much cultural pressure and rejection and

acceptance? A lot of people in culture are saying, come to us. We'll love you. We'll walk with you. We'll accept you. What are we going to do? Are we going to create an environment where we can love people with the truth of the gospel, walk alongside them in the truth of the gospel, and maybe agree to disagree on some finer points of language? I mean, look, bottom line is they are walking in faithful obedience. They are rejecting sexual immorality. They are rejecting sexual lust. They're trying to immorality. They are rejecting sexual

lust. They're trying, I mean, trying to, they, they fail. And guess what? Every single heterosexual person I know is trying to reject lust and fails and trying to reject sexual immorality and fails and trying to reject porn and fails. And 80% of evangelicals have sex before they're married. And, and, you know, a third of evangelicals have been divorced and remarried. And, um, I mean, I don't know what the percentage is 60 to 80% of evangelicals watch porn or addicted to porn, including many pastors. So we have our struggles and we're walking with each other, straight people in our struggles to resist temptation, to resist lust, to resist sexual immorality. Are we going to walk with our brothers and sisters in Christ who are doing the exact same thing? Or are we going to draw the line at an acronym? Revoice is an absolute gift to the

church. And I'm so thankful, so honored to be a part of it. And I will continue to support it. And I hope that other people will continue to voice their criticisms, will continue to push back and ask hard questions, but do so in a humble Christian manner, understanding that this is an in-house discussion. And please, with the tone of your criticism, make sure you go out of your way to acknowledge that these are brothers and sisters in Christ. And I am with you. I am for you. I've got some hard questions. Can you help me with this? Can you help me with that? What do you mean by this? What about that? But bottom line, I am with you. I am on your side and you're on my side. And, and if I dare call out any sort of thing in your life

that I think is falling short, then you have an open door to call out things in my life that, that where I'm falling short. How's my tone? How's, how are my questions? How am I doing with my language, my posture? Am I walking with you long enough and hard enough and deep enough? This is a beautiful thing, folks. Revoice is an awesome gift to the church. I hope that you can go to the next conference in June, 2019. I'm Preston Sprinkle. You've been listening to Theology in the Raw. Again, check out my Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash Theology in the Raw. Until then, we'll see you next time. Thank you.