Theology in the Raw - 696: #696 - A Conversation with Derwin Gray

Episode Date: September 24, 2018

On episode #696 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Derwin Gray. Derwin is the author of Hero: Unleashing God’s Power in a Man’s Heart (2010), Limitless Life: You Are More Than Your Past When God Holds Your Future (2013), Crazy Grace for Crazy Times Bible Study (2015), and The High-Definition Leader (2015). Follow Derwin on Twitter. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today a very special guest, somebody who I have been wanting to have on the show for quite some time now, and it is the one and only Dr. Reverend Derwin Gray. Derwin Gray is an ex-NFL football player. He is a church planter, a pastor, a teacher, a writer. He kind of does it all, and he planted and has grown one of the largest multi-ethnic churches in America. He has a huge heart for ethnic reconciliation in the church today. I've learned so, so much from Derwin, and we lingered on that topic pretty much for pretty much the whole podcast, talking about all things related to ethnic and racial reconciliation in the church. And so I'm super excited about this conversation. I also want to

let you know about a resource that we recently produced at the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, and that is Grace Truth 2.0. Five more conversations every thoughtful Christian should have about faith, sexuality, and gender. You're probably familiar with Grace Truth 1.0 if you've been listening to this podcast for any number of days, because I talk about it quite a bit. And now we have 2.0 that's out, and 2.0 is an additional five more conversations so that now 1.0 and 2.0 constitute 10 conversations, conversations, chapters, discussion starters about faith, sexuality, and gender. It comes with videos. It comes with questions. It comes with reading material, extra podcasts, extra papers. If you want to engage the conversation with faith, sexuality, and gender with a group of

people at your church or with your small group, your Sunday school, or just a bunch of friends, and you want to have something to read and discuss and think through this very important issue, then I highly recommend checking out Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0. You have to go to centerforfaith.com, click on the store link at the top, and we have a brand new store page. Our old store page was hideous. It was terrible. It was very difficult to navigate. And it was hard. We made it very hard to actually buy this stinking item. And now we alleviated a lot of those problems. So there's very few hurdles that you have to jump over to purchase the Grace Truth material. So check us out, centerforfaith.com. Click on the store link and see if Grace Truth 1.0 and now 2.0 is a good fit for your small group, Sunday school, or group of friends to discuss this very important topic.

Okay, let's get to Dr episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with my friend from a distance, pastor, author, and former football player, Derwin Gray. author and former football player derwin gray derwin is the pastor well pastor and uh co-founder of transformation church out in uh that's in north carolina right i know you got several campuses now yes so our our facility is in indian land south carolina which is basically a bedroom community of charlotte yes south carolina south carolina we draw people from north carolina and south basically a bedroom community of Charlotte. Yes. South Carolina. South Carolina. We draw people from North Carolina and South Carolina. Yeah.

And it's what makes Transformation Church unique is it's, I believe, one of the largest, I'm going to say intentionally multi-ethnic churches in the country. I mean, is that, would that be a legitimate description of your church? Yeah, I think so. country? I mean, is that, would that be a legitimate description of your church or? Yeah. Um, I think so from what people tell me that, uh, track that, that type of, that type of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Derwin is the author of, uh, four books, uh, limit, limitless life, uh, hero was his first one, crazy grace, and then high definition leader building multi-ethnic churches in a multi, multi-ethnic world. I'm sure we're going to talk a lot about not just that book, but the whole idea of building multi-ethnic

churches. I know this is a massive passion of yours. It is of mine as well. And I always have to qualify that with, well, you know, I often tell people if I wasn't doing the LGBT sexuality, You know, I often tell people if I wasn't doing the LGBT sexuality, faith, gender conversation more than full time, if that didn't exist in my life, I think I would be giving my life to the multi-ethnic thing. But I'm super excited to have brothers like you doing the opposite. You know, like I think we resonate a lot of the sexuality, gender questions. But man, you're like, man, I'm diving into the multi-ethnic stuff. And I'm so excited to have people like you doing this. I think there's a growing – would you say there's a growing number of pastors, leaders, churches in the country that are engaging multi-ethnic ministries? Yeah. I do believe that there is.

Statistically, I think over the last few years, I think it's like 13% of churches in the United States are now multi-ethnic, but that could be a little misconstrued because sometimes congregations are just in transition. But let me start at the basics, because a lot of times in this conversation, people will say things, well, you just, you just need to preach the gospel. Where do you, where do you, where do you worry about this stuff? And, and let's, you know, why are we talking about race and often understand where they're coming from. And I'll say, well, let's don't talk about race when we talk about the Bible or the gospel. So Jesus isn't Jewish. He's a Martian. Um, you know, um, Cornelius wasn't an Italian. He was from Jupiter. The Samaritan woman was like from somewhere in the Milky Way galaxy. The gospel is a story of how God reconciles the human race comprised of different ethnicities to one another and to this new ethnicity called the church, which was the Christ of Jews and Gentiles, on how do you get along together as a eschat to understand the implications and what the gospel accomplishes.

And the gospel accomplishes a new people of God, which are Jews and Gentiles. So in other words, God creates a new humanity where sexism, classism, and ethnocentrism is crucified. And what breaks my heart is that's hardly ever preached. crucified. And what breaks my heart is that's hardly ever preached. And so I sound like I'm making stuff up or I sound as though like, dude, what are you talking about? And I'm going, it's in the Bible. Like we have to really get rid of our Western individualistic understanding and really go back to what was the goal of this Jewish Messiah? He was the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that all the ethnos would be blessed. And the blessing is to be united to Christ as the new people of Christ. So the gospel is so much more powerful than Derwin gets

his sins forgiven. Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, you see this, I mean, it couldn't be more explicit in at least a couple of paths. I mean, I think thematically, thematically, it's part of the fabric of the story of redemption. But even explicitly, like in Galatians 3.8, Paul says, God preached the gospel before him, preached the gospel, the euangelion before him Abraham saying, and then he quotes Genesis 12, 3. Now, any student of biblical theology or any first-year Bible student knows that like the Abrahamic promises spoken to Abraham in Genesis 12, 1 to 3, that's the backbone of the entire story of redemption. And in that, at the very end, it says, in you, all the nations will be blessed. Paul says, that is the gospel. That is in the, I mean, I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm preaching also to my audience. That is an explicit statement about different ethnic groups being included and reconciled under God's covenant that began

with Abraham. Am I not? I mean, this just seems like it's just there on the surface of the text. You don't have to dig very deep. No, no. But what's sad is you would be surprised at how many pastors with MDivs and doctorates that I've read that passage to, and they'll look at me and go, how have I never seen this? And it's been here in clear sight. And when you look at the beauty in which Paul writes in Galatians 3, that this good news in verses 28 and 29 shows what this good news community would look like, and that there's neither Jew nor Greek, meaning that ethnocentrism is crucified, that Jews and Greeks are to use our own language, Mexicans, Hondurans, whites, blacks, whatever, Latino, Asian, we don't stop being who we are. We are redeemed and added to the beautiful tapestry of God's people. So we don't go and start

being colorblind. We're color blessed. Usually the people who say, let's be colorblind have never had their color be a disadvantage for them. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And then Paul goes on to say, let's be colorblind have never had their color be a disadvantage for them. Yeah, totally. Yeah. You know, and then Paul goes on to say, poor nor, free nor slave, which is classism, and male nor female, which is sexism. Why? Because verse 29, we're all children of Abraham. And so fundamentally, it is a misunderstanding of the fullness of the gospel. But also, to be honest, it is also we have allowed ethnocentrism to dictate the terms in which how we preach the gospel. And the implications of it is still affecting us to this very day

that I sound like I'm the crazy one when it would have been normative to the Apostle Paul. very day that I sound like I'm the crazy one when it would have been normative to the Apostle Paul. Another passage for me that just leaps off the pages is Ephesians 2, the second half, 11 to 22. And, you know, growing up in reformed circles and in a really Bible-centered, gospel-centered Christian context, man, we love, love Ephesians 2, 1 to 10. You know, by grace, you have been saved. You have a human depravity in verses 1 to 3. And I kid you not, even when I took a class on Ephesians in seminary, I still remember thinking like, man, the first half of Ephesians 2 is so rich and theological. And then it kind of tails off after that.

You talk about lenses. And then years later, when I started understanding the things we're talking about more and seeing it kind of, you know, that aha moment, like, how did I not see this before? I was asked to preach a sermon on Ephesians. We're going through Ephesians and I was assigned to 11 And, uh, yeah, that was kind of my coming out moment is years ago at Cornerstone church where Francis Chan was a pastor. And, um, and I preached on that. I really hit the ethno ethnic reconciliation pretty, pretty hard. Um, and you know, I was surprised that's a pretty, pretty white middle-class standard evangelical church. And it was pretty well received. And I,

even looking back, I said some things that were, you know, when you first discover something, or maybe a little too much, you know, and I got pushed back. I got the emails, but not, you know, I was like, man, I'm surprised that how many people were saying, thank you for saying that. I've been, I've been feeling that. And other people were like, man, I never thought about that. But it's clear in the text that the cross of Christ was designed to reconcile us vertically to God, one to ten, and horizontally to each other. But not just to each other, but each other, meaning specifically ethnic groups coming together in Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah. And as you know, when we interpret the Bible, it's this beautiful thread.

And so often, you know, Ephesians 2, 8, 9, we're saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, not by works, least we should boast, for it is a gift of God. In verse 10, in him, we're God's artwork, we're God's artwork created to do good works that God has prepared for in advance. Well, as I interpret that text, because of God's grace vertically, the good works we've been prepared for in advance is actually verses 11 through 22. And when you look at those verses in verse 12, you see Gentiles were separated from the covenant. Verse 13, the blood of Christ brought those who are far away near. Verse 14, Christ is our peace. Verse 15, he tore down the dividing wall.

Verse 16, through his body on the cross were reconciled. Verse 17 and 18, we have access to the Father. cross, we're reconciled. Verse 17 and 18, we have access to the Father, versus 19 through 21, we're God's new temple, his new dwelling. And I'm like, how was I not taught this in my master's? And how is this so strange to understand that just as a cross has a vertical beam, there's a horizontal beam. And so intrinsic to the work of Christ was the formation of Christ's community. And so, unfortunately, we have allowed our culture of racism and ethnocentrism to shape us more than the gospel. And so what I'll say to folks all the time is that my in Christness is more important than my first birth. And by the way, I'm 75% like Congolese Ivory Coast,

but I'm also nearly 25% European. But the United States of America would never allow me to claim that 25% European, even though my DNA tells the story because in the 1600s in Virginia, it was said, if you had one eighth of black, a black blood in you consider black. And so all of that still cascades and permeates us. And so a lot of times people say they're gospel-centered, and they're really not, because gospel-centeredness means that my ethnicity has now been transformed into the ethnicity of the new people of God or

the church. Even the word Christian, Preston, as you know, is only used three times in the New Testament. The first time it's used is at the multi-ethnic church at Antioch. And so in the ancient world, as you know, one's ethnicity was determined by their religious practices, not the color of their skin. And so you had Jews and you had Gentiles. The Gentiles were no longer heathens.

The Jews now said that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. And the Gentiles and non-Jews were saying, I mean, the Gentiles and Jews were saying, well, what should we call this new community? They called them a new race of people called Christian. So the term Christian denotes a new ethnicity of people. Like we can legitimately, biblically say Christian, unless we understand that Jews and Gentiles became a new people where there was an equality in Christ. And that was now their ethnic badge was in Christness. that was now their ethnic badge was in Christness.

Well, it's fascinating. You take the two epistles, two books of the Bible that are the main sources of kind of the gospel and justification by faith and all these heavy, heavy reform theological themes, Romans and Galatians, both books, you cannot understand those, but those books wouldn't even exist were it not for this underlying, not even underlying theme, but like main fabric throughout both those books of Jew, Gentile coming together in Christ. My eyes were open to that years ago. I was like, again, how did I, how did I miss that Ephesians or Romans 2 and 3 and 4 and, you know, and then the 9 and 11 and even 14 and 15. And like all throughout the book, Paul is adamantly concerned of bringing Jew-Gentile together.

Yeah, you know, it's like the lights turn on and then you see how a lot of these problems can emerge. But just taking a step back. So just like you, you know, I was raised on Calvin's Institutes. And so I read Romans. And then as I began to learn the tools myself, I realized why Paul wrote the book. Romans 15, six through eight tells us why that you know in one accordance and harmony for you guys to get along which was jews and gentiles and how do we know because verses 8 through 13 it talks about christ being the servant of the uncircumcised and the first two chapters of the book of romans is all jews gentiles jews gentiles even romans 3 Like we're quick to go to Romans 3.23.

We've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Romans 3.22 talks about the righteousness of God, both Jews and Gentiles. That justification is not just vertical. And we are incorporated into the very righteousness of the Messiah. His covenantal faithfulness is ours his righteousness is imputed to us because we're in him not just vertically but horizontally so now i can look at the other on equal terms because they're in christ imagine if jonathan edwards would have known that i don't think he would have owned slaves own slaves. Now, like, I am so tired of white theologians of the past getting a pass on their

racism. Well, they were men of the time. Well, John Wesley was an abolitionist. He was in that time. Like, it's amazing how we continue to have the privilege to give people a pass on white supremacy and racism. That if we understood the justification said, Preston and I are equally righteous because we are clothed in Christ. Therefore, my love of him is in direct proportion to God's love of me. And so, so much of what we're dealing with is how do people get along? Vertical reconciliation is the beginning to fuel horizontal reconciliation, and we have unity. Do people give Edwards a free pass? They try to like downplay it or whatever? Yes.

Yeah. You know, maybe, maybe probably in Boise, you know, the Mormons probably don't know who Jonathan Edwards is, but, you know, but here in the South and a lot of my reform friends, well, you know, it was, he was a sign of his times. Well, why can't James Cone then be a sign of his times? Right, yeah. It's like, well, you know, Martin Luther King, you know, he was a heretic.

Well, isn't owning slaves like a heresy as well? But anyway, let's move on. Well, I understand. I mean, with the Edwards thing, I understand trying to understand the times to where you can see where somebody would wrongfully, in a disgusting way, buy into that. But that's different from kind of downplaying it. I cannot downplay it and say, I don't know. I just wonder if there's a middle way there where you can... Like him owning slaves then, do you see it any different than owning slaves today?

I'm not making that argument. I'm just thinking out loud. Like any time you own slaves, it is sin for all time and all eternity. And as you know, you've done such a great work in understanding language and culture. Slavery of biblical times is not slavery of what we're experiencing back then or even now. My whole premise of bringing that up is we have to get back to not just what Luther and Calvin said. My quote-unquote expertise or doctoral work is in Second Temple Jewish understanding. And so that has freed me up so much to see beyond a Eurocentric perspective to, wow, like this was a Jewish movement that at the beginning, the followers of the Messiah were considered another

segment of the Jews. You had the Essenes, and you had the Zealots, and the Sadducees, and the Pharisees. Now you got this other group called the Christians. Then eventually, their practices morphed and shaped, but they had Gentiles or Goniim who were equally a part of it. And there was something beautiful and transformative about this movement, so much so that they were classified as the third race. Right, right. Isn't that crazy? So you mentioned you did your doctoral work under Scott McKnight, right? And just recently completed that.

What was your focus on? So I didn't realize it was on Second Temple Judaism. Yeah, so the doctoral work is called New Testament in Context. So I didn't realize it was on Second Temple Judaism. What was your thesis? at the church. And so my emphasis, my thesis was multi-ethnic churches are the primary sign of the Abrahamic covenant. Oh, wow. Gosh. So yeah, this is not just an interest of yours or a pastoral interest. This is like the subject of your doctoral thesis. So transformation church is the overflow of a conviction that God told Abraham, through you all the nations will be blessed. And Jesus is the one who comes to fulfill that covenant to create this new humanity.

But this new humanity who's being sanctified on this new exodus is painting a portrait of what the human condition is supposed to be. And that final picture looks like every nation, tribe, and tongue adoring and worshiping Jesus. So what's happening in the future, God wants us to practice in the present. And so what I say is not only do we get justification and reconciliation and expiation and propitiation and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, but we also get a new family. And this family is counter-cultural. And it's also a tutor and teacher to the world. That's so good.

Is this, I mean, High Definition, HD Leader, your latest book. Is that your latest book? That's your latest book. You haven't written one since then? Yes. I mean, that captures a lot of that on a real practical way. Do you have another, your thesis, have you published that? Are you going to do something?

No, I haven't published my thesis yet. So the High Definition Leader, Building Multi-E-ethnic churches in a multi-ethnic world will give you the essence of it. My thesis has built upon that. And I've just been too tired to pursue publishing at this time. But Preston, you know, this is what I want to give my life to you. Like I'm 47 years old. I've done the conference thing. I've written four books. And I'm just saying that, that I believe that there's more that Jesus wants to do. And I'm not going to sell my soul to, to, to kiddie pool theology. I'm not going to sell my soul to individualistic messages. Like Jesus gave his life so that his ministry and mission could fill this

earth. And, and, and, and, you know, we all think our time is the most important time ever. Right. But man, what a great time for the church. This is what it looks like. Like, so for, so for a guy like me, right. So, so I'm not, I'm'm not typical Pentecostal charismatic black. I'm not old school black. But obviously, you know, I'm not white evangelicalism. And so it's like you're in this space and you're going, oh, my gosh, is there anybody else?

Yeah. Do you feel like that? Oh, man, I feel like that just about every day. Really? Oh man, it's having conversations like this is very rare. Oh my gosh. I mean, you seem like the most logical, sane, like, oh dude, I would give anything for you to be my pastor. Well, so, so, so, so our, our church is, is beautiful, it's healthy, it's thriving, and it's growing.

And it's, I mean, God is doing some incredible things. But outside of that, talking to other pastors, you know, particularly so my African American friends, they're like, listen, I understand what you're saying but bro 81 percent of white evangelicals voted for immoral man i mean oh my gosh when bill clinton was president like like this new guy makes clinton look like a boy scout are you kidding me so my so my black friends are like just screw it like why should we go for this self harm and hurt anymore? Like, like, does anyone care that we've been saying for years that police profiling and brutality is like normative and no one wanted to listen. But then I'll talk to my white pastor friends. I'm like, well, man, you're, you're moving too fast. And I'm like, yeah, that's easy for you to say. That's what they told King. That's what the white pastors

told King back in the sixties. Yeah. Like this is good, whatever, but give it time, give it time. That's why you're ready to load it. Yeah. And, but, but also here's another thing though, money. Because, you know, like I've been told by a black person that i'm racist against blacks because i'm not pro-black enough i've been told that i'm racist against whites because of issues that i've brought up that we need to disciple you know it's like well you know it's not white folks fault for i'm like who said that bro i'm just saying there's a reason why nfl players are taking a knee and it's not to dishonor the flag it's so we can live up to what the flag stands for which is justice and liberty for all that's why our great soldiers

fight and give their lives for justice and liberty for all and And in the words of Forrest Gump, I'm not a smart man, Janai. And so it hurts my heart when Christians will say, well, what are these black players going to do about this problem? And I'm like, well, aren't we Americans? Isn't it our problem? Like, shouldn't it be our problem and not just their problem or well they're rich what's their problem yeah those who are powerful speak for those who have no power yeah um so um i think the enemy is so busy and has used political rhetoric on the right and the left that they've discipled much better than the church has. Yeah. Oh man. I just had a, do you know Scott Sauls? I just had Scott Sauls on the podcast

talking about the, yeah, how, and he would see one of the greatest damages to evangelicalism has been the politicalization where he even said something that's really simple, but so true and brilliant that we oftentimes we find more allegiance to people of our same political persuasion that don't share our faith rather than people who share our faith but have different political allegiances, where we're so invested into our political interests that that's unhelpful for the gospel. Well, and if you look at the ethnic segregation of the church it's basically the same as political lines yeah and so proximity breeds intimacy like one of the beautiful things about having a multi-ethnic church is we get to hear

each other's stories like we we, like empathy has, happens as a result of being and doing life with the other. Yeah. And you know, like, so like in our church, like literally you could have someone wearing a make America great hat again, next to someone with a shirt that says black lives matter. Really? Oh, yeah. That's how it should be, man. Yeah.

Because each one has their story. I mean, even like I'm not, as my audience knows, I say this every podcast, I am not a Trump fan at all. But true diversity is going to also listen to the conservative who said, okay, now why did you, you know this guy is just morally bankrupt you know he's got the maturity of a six-year-old like that's just not unclear to the world why why would you and you know sometimes people have a mixture of good and bad reasons for that but but what agree or disagree they're still welcome at the table too and vice versa the trump dude should say the

same thing about the black lives matter person say i want to hear your story what was it like growing up when you had the talk that us white people don't even know about you know and what's it like when you get pulled over by the car i just talked to a black pastor friend in town this is a while ago actually and he he said preston when i when those lights he goes i'm a man of the cloth i i wear my uh you know suit and tie drive a nice car but i'm black in idaho and when those lights go on behind me which happens quite a bit i'm like i've never been pulled over and he's getting pulled over all the time let me tell you emotionally what happens inside of me i'm a christian i've never i don't swear i'll drink i don't i mean i i don't i think i'm a

pretty good person and my heart starts going like this could go south. Like I, every time that it could be a ticket could be a broken taillight. The cop could be black for, I know, but my heart starts going and I, I start and I'm, I'm like, I don't know what that feels like,

man, where those lights go on. I'm like, you know, I'm thinking like, I'm going to tell this cop off. Like I'm not doing anything right. You know,

I can be cocky and he's like, Oh, I know being cocky could be the death of me. I'm like being cocky for me could just whatever. He may slap a ticket on me. But I don't have that same experience of what it feels like to get pulled over. Anyway. No, no, you're right. So my wife is from western Montana.

And so we just love being out west. That's right. just love being out West. And that's right. A few years ago, uh, we were, we were driving from the airport and we saw that a police officer pulled over a white guy and the white guy had his finger in his face and was wearing a police officer out. And I was just stunned and silent going, Oh my gosh. Like that would, that, that would never be a thought. Yeah. Um, the, one of, one of, one of, one of, one of the saddest things I've ever had to do, uh, was, uh,

myself and three young guys that were part of our church and my son, we got pulled over. I got done speaking, um, for the fellowship of Christianes at a college. It was about 10.30 at night. We were not speeding. And a police officer got behind us, turned on his high beams for a mile, and pulled us over. And as he's walking to the car, the saddest thing is I said, son, put your hands on the backseat of the driver.

Don't move. Don't grab anything. Yes, sir. No, sir. And I told everybody, roll your Wendell down to the driver and everybody put their hands on the dash. And, you know, and the police officer has to do his job because there are dangerous people in the world. I mean, we respect our police. We partner with our police. We've gotten awards from the police department in Charlotte. But the reality is, to use one of those awesome reform words, total depravity does not skip policemen. Right. You know, just because you've never been harassed doesn't mean that there's others who haven't been harassed. And policing is a hard job. And what I say is to be a police officer, you have to be incredibly emotionally stable because there's so much pressure. And so whoever has the highest

authority needs to have the highest accountability and emotional intelligence to be able to do such an important job. But the reality is, is if we don't talk about those things in church and understand of discipleship and empathy goes a long, long way. So, so, you know, those are some of the things that that we're working on. And before you get an email saying, well, what does he think about all the killing in Chicago? I think it's terrible. killing in Chicago. I think it's terrible. I think any form of murder and killing is terrible, that gun violence is incredibly terrible. But what I will say is, policemen are to protect and to serve. We expect gang members to act as such, but policemen are to protect and to serve, and you're innocent until proven guilty.

Right, right. So it's not saying the only problem in this discussion are white cops. There's multiple problems, but the sort of whitewash one, because, well, they're doing it worse, or there's a worse problem in Chicago. Let's not ignore either of them. Let's deal with them all. And each one has its own kind of systemic issues going on that need to be unraveled. Injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. And last I checked, Jesus in the gospel of Luke verses chapter four and 13 on down talks about this gospel of setting the captives free, giving sight to the blind. His messianic mandate seems to be kingdom bringing to earth. What do you think about the recent buzz, at least on social media, on is social justice part of the gospel? I think John MacArthur stirred some stuff up. I haven't actually pieced the whole, all the pieces together.

Is this something new that kind of flared up? I mean, it's always kind of been a discussion, but I feel like there's been a flare up recently, right? Am I right about that? I try not to, I'm not even going to bring the person's up name who is talking about, I don't really pay much attention to him. But what I will say is this, and we have to go back to the Bible. So when Jesus said, Shema Yisrael, Adonai elehenu, Adonai achad, listen Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, with all your strength, and you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. So Jesus took the Hebrew Shema from Deuteronomy 6, 4 through 9, and he added Leviticus chapter 19, verses 8 through 19. So to love your neighbor as you

love yourself to a Jewish understanding fleshes out in Leviticus chapter 19, 8 through 19. chapter 19, 8 through 19, that's what love looks like. Love looks like not cheating financially. Like love looks like saying, Wells Fargo, get your house in order. Stop making fake bank accounts. Love looks like saying immigrants matter. Like immigrants mattered so much to God that the nation of Israel was taught. Don't glean all your fields because when the immigrant or foreigner comes through, they're going to be able to collect food and go, what kind of God is this that people leave food for the immigrant? Like if people really want to be serious,

go look what Leviticus 19, 8 through 19 looks like. So when Jesus said, love your neighbor as you love yourself, love is justice in public. So I don't care what term you give it. That the gospel has social implications. have social implications. Only those in positions of privilege can focus on a gospel that simply to heaven instead of a gospel that brings heaven to earth. And here's another thing, since I'm on this rant, and I know you've done some work in this realm, evangelicals are so concerned about works, works, works, works. Martin Luther did a lot of things that were right, but here's one of the things that he did wrong. He took works as his existential

anxiety of not being able to live up to the Ten Commandments. So therefore, justification is simply, Jesus made me righteous because I couldn't be righteous in my own works. Whereas what I would say is works were Jewish ethnic badges that separated Jews from Gentiles, that the whole argument of Romans and Galatians was you Gentiles have to become Jews. So you need to do these works such as kosher Sabbath, Torah, and Paul is going, no, Jesus now is the ethnic badge. And if you want to do Torah, great, but just know that your performance is not what saves you. What saves you is the work of Christ, that he's faithful to the covenant

on our behalf. And so I would say that we really, let me stop there and get your perspective, because you've actually done more work than I have on that. No, you sound like a Scott McKnight disciple. That's a compliment no that uh so the backdrop of paul's idea of justification by faith i would say i would affirm everything you're saying i wouldn't i would wanna my only twist on that is these ethnic bad it's not like ethnic badges and not works righteousness it's ethnic badges as works righteousness if if you will, whatever. Some people said, he's not even talking about works righteousness. He's talking about ethnicity. I'm like, well, it's kind of a both and. It is. And Paul addresses this in Romans 4. It's like,

just because you're ethnically Jewish, and as you know, what made a person a Jew was not their skin color. It was, I'm circumcised, I follow the Torah, and I do all these things. And so your ethnicity is not your righteousness. Christ is your righteousness. Right. And in the Jewish first century world, they would build these walls of ethnic things the Gentile proselyte would have to check off on. And so when Paul tore down that wall and says, no, it's just by faith, he doesn't have... The backdrop of justification by faith is not some abstract notion of works righteousness. It is specifically ethnocentric works righteousness. And this is where I think Tom Wright and Scott McKnight and James Dunn have done a great job kind of filling in the—they've made it a high-definition discussion, really, which is exactly what justification by faith was in the first place.

Yeah, and one of the beautiful grace gifts for me is not growing up in the church. And I just kind of like read the Bible, right? church. And I just kind of like read the Bible, right? And I didn't even know that I was even moving towards understanding that. Like, I didn't even know who N.T. Wright was. I didn't know who Scott McKnight was. Didn't know who Jimmy Dunn was. And so it was like this convergence of going, oh my gosh, if the church knew this, it would change things. Because it's kind of like taking a big lump of clay and sticking it in a square deal and going, look, everything's square. Versus going, no, what we put it into shaped what it'd become. what we put it into shape what it become. Now, if we just take that shape away and go,

Paul is talking about this covenant that God made with Abraham and Jesus fulfills it to make a new people. And these people are redeemed, justified, reconciled, expiation, propitiation, filled and sealed with the spirit. I'm like, it was like my head exploded, like, okay, there's so much more. And I want to be a part of that. So you didn't grow up in the church. Now you went to, you went to bring them young, right? Did you grow up LDS or what was, what's their BYU connection? Did they just give you a good scholarship or? Yeah. So, so, so I grew up in a, in a household that had an inkling of Jehovah Witness background, which basically meant Jesus was not God, the Trinity is not true. And that was it. We didn't pray.

We didn't go to Kingdom Hall. Lots of immorality, drug addiction, just brokenness. Football was my God. And the best scholarship offer I had, I'm thinking purely as a secular person, right? And I'm going, okay, Brigham Young, they're on ESPN a lot. Lavelle Edwards was a Hall of Fame coach. In 89, they were five years off a national championship. And I'm like, they're on ESPN every week. Like, why would I not go to BYU?

Like, that's- I didn't know they're that big. Because the other offers I had was Kansas State and TCU. So I knew BYU would give me a world-class degree, and I knew I had to play early. And so that's why I went to BYU. And so at that time— You don't have to be Mormon to go there? You don't have to be Mormon to— No.

Okay. About 98% of the school is Mormon. Right. But you have to take 15 hours of religion classes from a Mormon perspective. And I just remember that some of the things were kind of weird. And there was like this, this, this curse of Cain where black people couldn't hold the Melchizedek priesthood that got lifted, but nobody really wanted to talk about it.

But I was never into it, right? Were you sitting at the front row of that class? I got some questions. Professor, I got some questions. I actually walked out of class when we discussed that. And I said, my black skin is not a curse. And I walked out of class. But the professor was very gracious.

And he and I met and talked. But that was one of the reasons why I didn't take Mormonism seriously at that time. Also met my wife there who was there on a track team and she was non-Mormon as well, but several members of her family is LDS. So for my wife and I both, we were basically pagans. I don't know if we would consider ourselves postmodern, like truth was relative, but we wasn't intellectual about it. We were pursuing the American dream and we ended up getting married in college, which I'm thankful for the Mormon influence because there was no, you live with someone and shack up. It's like you get married.

So I was 20, like when we got married. Oh, wow. No way. Yeah. And so we've been married for 26 years now. And yeah, so BYU was a great experience. It taught me how to get along culturally. It gave me an incredible love for the West.

I mean, I love Utah, Idaho. Really? It's absolutely gorgeous. So here's a question. Do you feel like that area of the country is racist? Like, do you feel out of place when you're there as a black guy? I mean, or does it, are people pretty cool or do you? Yeah. So the I felt more racism in Indiana. OK. There are certain places in the southeast. But out west, because you have the Polynesian influence, it's it's just different.

Like I like you don't feel the same type of visceralness. Yeah. Now, what I will say is the racism I felt in Indiana was from my black teammates with the Colts because my wife was white. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I've encountered more structural racism because it's a white dominated society, but personal racism the most was for my black teammates.

Now, when my wife and I got married, her stepdad didn't want me to marry her because I was black. And my grandmother didn't want her to marry me because she was white. But by the maturity of our relationship, her stepdad became one of my best friends. And that man was so proud of me. Like he was so proud of me. And, you know, he apologized and, you know, you're a man of character. I'm honored my daughter is married to you. And I mean, that man was so proud of me that on vacations, when we would go there, I couldn't rest because he was introducing me to everybody. My son-in-law,

he's a pastor. He's got a master's degree. He'll help you. And it was truly proximity breeds intimacy. And the same thing, my grandmother who grew up, you know, in Jim Crow, Texas, she's carrying this baggage and like, why are you marrying this white girl? Because she took her experiences. And then she went on to love my wife. but I wouldn't change anything about going to BYU. It was a great cultural experience. Some of my best friends, Coach Edwards, who passed away, a great man. My wife and I were married by the assistant athletic director at BYU. He was a Mormon. So the Lord has been incredibly gracious to us. You got drafted out of BYU.

How many years did you play in the NFL? I played six seasons in the NFL, five with the Colts, and one season with the Panthers. Okay. Why did you stop? You know what? I get that question a lot. Well, first of all, to continue playing, you got to be really good

because it is the most competitive thing you will ever do. You know, so the position I played, there are basically four of those on every team. There's 32 teams. So out of 7 billion people on the world, there's 120 something jobs for what I did. So look at those odds. Going into my sixth year, as I began to grow in Christ, I just sensed it was time for me to move on. But I didn't know what to because I was a compulsive stutterer.

And I had no desire to preach or to teach or to write books. I stuttered. Really? It's gone now, apparently. Well, I still stutter, but the Lord has helped me tremendously. And so I was invited to speak at an FCA thing. And I mean, I remember praying and crying and like, God, send somebody else that can at least talk.

Like I'll pay for it. And I just, I just sensed the Lord saying, if I can raise Christ from the dead, I can loosen your tongue to talk. You can just say you're speaking in tongues and you'd flourish in Pentecostal circles, right? Hey, the Pentecostals would go crazy. You don't stutter, man. You got the Holy Ghost inside of you, man. I know.

That's right. That's right. Wow. Hey, what do you think? So I haven't looked into it. This is way off the topic, but's right. That's right. Wow. Hey, what do you think? So I haven't looked into it. This is way off the topic, but not really. The whole concussion debate in NFL and stuff. I never saw the movie, actually, with Will Smith.

Is it Will Smith? But yeah, what's that all about? Is that a legitimate thing? Do you think football is covering up some stuff? Okay, so let me throw out a few things here. Okay, I'm 47 years old. I've just finished my doctorate. I've written books. There's a lot of guys who played in the NFL a lot longer than me who are healthy and they're doing great. Okay. There are some guys who do have problems. Okay. Now, when you look at the initial concussion survey or study, it was 110, 11 brains of former NFL players and all 1011 showed signs of CTE. Okay. So the sample was only with people or players who showed signs that they had CTE it wasn't a pure sample of just all these NFL players so it would be like me then I'm gonna

get 111 people and I'm gonna x-ray their right arm because all of them have had fractures to the right arms. So therefore, when you x-ray the bones, what do you find? A fracture. So you took these 111 players and 110 had signs of CTE, but it wasn't a big sample of none guys who didn't show signs. So number two, drug use causes CTE. Epilepsy causes CTE. And there are a lot of players who've played who have no CTE when they die. Okay. So those are the facts. Here's another fact. If you run into people at high rates of speed with your head, you're probably going to have some problems. Right. Number three, did the NFL during the 70s and 80s cover up the damage that concussions can cause? I believe they did. That's why there's lawsuits. Now in every NFL locker room, there are big signs that talk about what concussions can do long term. For me, am I going to play if I still could knowing that? Absolutely 100%. Does my son play? Absolutely 100%. So football is a very, very violent sport, but you don't use your head to tackle. You use your shoulders. And so I believe the sport is moving in a positive trend to alleviate that. And the concussion protocols are really, really good. But I do think that

concussion study, if you read the fine print, you'll see that the sample was not indicative of everybody, but just players who showed signs. That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I, so I, again, I know that that's, you gave me a massive lesson that I knew nothing about. And that totally makes sense. I, to me, it's just the common sense is what you said, Like you play football. Yeah, that's going to increase your chance of head injury. If you ride a horse, that's going to increase your chance of breaking your neck. If you do MMA, you might get your head kicked in. And if you are a pastor, you'll have head injuries. You will have emotional, spiritual trauma.

Yes, you will. So let's a few more minutes here. I want to get real practical. You're a pastor of a multi-ethnic church. It's growing. It's thriving. It's from the outside. It looks like it's doing very well.

What are some of the huge challenges as a pastor of a large church that's multi-ethnic that you face? large church it's multi-ethnic let's get you faced yeah so so so the first thing is is our identity always has to be rooted in the person and redemptive work of christ um if jesus is not enough nothing will ever be enough and what i mean by that is this, is that as our friend John Calvin said, the heart is a perpetual factory for idols. And we have to be on guard of thinking that ministry success is going to heal that ache in our heart, and only Jesus can. So that's number one, is my own spiritual formation to be rooted in the redemptive work of Christ through the Holy Spirit's power and to fight by the Spirit's power that Jesus is enough. Number two, to make sure that my marriage and my parenting is my first and foremost ministry. And then number three is that being

in ministry is filled with disillusionment, discouragement, and disappointment. What gets you down? What discourages Derwin Gray? Well, so say, for instance, you are mentoring and pouring into staff, and you're watching them grow, and then all of a sudden, adversity hits, and they begin to self-sabotage. And man, that hurts so much to see that. Or, you know, you get an email that's very critical about something that you know that's incredibly biblical. And you're like, wait, we're not arguing about this like like are you serious right now yeah um it's sad that when people allow politics to trump their understanding of the bible yeah i see what you did there yeah nice um you you know, also for a person like me, like, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm an athlete.

Um, I like to get after it and sometimes things don't happen fast enough and you can become disillusioned or disappointed. And the Lord is constantly reminding me through various ways that it's more about health and growth versus the speed of how something gets done. And then I would say what's discouraging too, even this morning is like, you'll hear evangelicals being talked about. But what the word evangelical really means is white conservative. And there are African-Americans and Latinos and Asian evangelicals who are going, hey, talk to us, too, because what's happening in one fragment is not what's happening to us. You know, years ago it was young evangelicals are leaving

the church. It's like, no, young white evangelicals are leaving the church. Not Latino, not Asian, not black. And the center of evangelicalism is not America. It's South America. It's Africa. It's Asia. By 2050, one in three evangelicals will be a nigerian woman yeah so like there's this american hubris that is like well my little problem is everybody's problem and it's like man we have something to say yeah like will anybody listen i think you spanked me on twitter on that a years ago that may have been been how we met, actually. No, I think we met each other before that. But I made a comment about people leaving the church. And you're like, yeah, white people, make sure you qualify that. I'm like, dang, even though I've been thinking about this for years, I still make these mistakes of falling back into a certain brand of evangelicalism when I'm talking about evangelicalism as a whole. This is, this is a, so, so when you live as a minority, it's like a third culture, you fit into yours and it's like, you can morph.

And so because of that positioning and location and history, it makes you more sensitive to the narratives of others. And so kind of one of the illustrations for people who have privilege and don't even know it is, how do you tell a fish that it's living in water? You know, like a catfish isn't going to go, man, this water is great, bro. They're only going to know that water is great is when they're yanked out of it. So part of my role is helping people in privilege get yanked out of it. So part of my role is helping people in privilege get yanked out of the water to go, wait a second, man, I can breathe on land.

Like, wow, there's more out here that I can learn from. And so I'm actually partnering with Northern Seminary to lead a new program, a's of art in multi-ethnic church leadership. Really? Yeah. I've only had two non-white professors in all of my studies. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm going to be teaching five classes that deal specifically with how do you develop multi-ethnic churches

and multi-ethnic leadership and also multi-ethnic preaching. Like there's an art and science of how do you learn to communicate to various groups of people? So I got a white question for you here. And it's just uh, it's just an honest question and I might be way off here, but it's something that, uh, us white people sometimes talk about from time to time. So when I, when I was applying, I had this discussion with a Malaysian guy just last week, um, on the podcast. So, cause you made a comment about there's, you had hardly any minority professors and, and somebody could see that as like, yeah, that's, that's, you know, white dominance, white privilege, people keeping minorities down. But in my experience growing up,

you know, I remember wanting to be a firefighter in California and people around me said, you're a white male. You will never get on. I said, what if I'm qualified? Like I'll work hard. You know, I'll get in shape. Like, like you're not going to, you won't like the odds of you getting in. You're not going to do it. So I go, I'm going to go into theology. And I went to master's seminary because I was just the only seminary that I knew existed. And then I went to do a PhD and I applied for Duke, Duke PhD, or I was going to apply, cost 80 bucks to get your application in. And people said, you're a white male. You're not going to, there's no way you're going to get in. So I went in, you know, did my PhD in Scotland, got in and I was applying for jobs. I applied for

37 jobs. I got denied at 37 schools. I had publications. I had a PhD, passed my thesis, flying colors, and was applying for jobs. And people were like, well, you're a white male. So, I mean, good luck trying to get a job in Christian academia. And then when I was on staff, I actually ended up getting a job at Cedarville because they fired some people and they opened up the candidacy again. And when we, so now I'm on the other side involved in the hiring process. Here's a really conservative school, really conservative, really white. And when we're going through job applications, you know, an open position, 150 applications come in, we're like, oh, what we would give for a minority person to sign a doctor's statement. They got to

be, you know, we can't have, we can't have James Cohen teach at Cedarville University, but we're like, we would give anything. Here's a bunch of white dudes, white, straight males, conservatives saying, do we have to hire yet another white person? Like we're combing through, where is somebody that has to be qualified? They have to be able to sign a statement. So, and, and, and I, and I know there's a lot of systemic things that go into that whole discussion, but I, I haven't met, and I mean this literally, I don't think I've met any leader in evangelicalism who is white, publicist, teachers, high up pastors that I know, who give any ounce of like, let's make sure we keep the leadership really white in evangelicalism. We want the opposite. So what am I missing? Or what can we do to reverse that? Because I see a lot of people, white people, that don't want the face of evangelicalism to be that white. Does that make sense? It does. It does. And I, you know, I've learned along the way that things, you know, about talk about it, things you don't know about, learn about. if the school is pretty much white, even,

genital male heavy, oftentimes minorities in those spaces really struggle. Because systematically and systemically, culturally, it's I want you to assimilate. I'm not going to accommodate. Assimilation is become like us. Accommodation is bring who you are and let's mutually learn from one another. And so that part I can speak to. And I would say that it has to begin with prayer and fasting.

It has to begin with prayer and fasting. But it has to be a welcoming environment that's not just I want you to assimilate to us, but I want you to bring like who you are. And who you are to shape the ethnic face of this school, not just assimilate to the white. Yeah, to be able to shape the ethnos. And so I think previous generations of African-Americans, I'll speak on behalf of African-Americans that I know, the previous generations are like, this is the hell that I went through. I don't know if you want to go through that. And so for me, being a first generation Christian, you know, I did my MDiv with emphasis on apologetics under Norman Geisler. And so now at Northern under Scott McKnight, they are conducive to what they see happening at Transformation Church, and they want to see it replicated. And so I think that's a great

partnership. But at the end of the day, it's easier to criticize than create. And I want to create, and I want to be like a Jackie Robinson, where it's normative that there are Black pastor scholars. You know, I'm not a, like, I'm a practitioner. Like, I'm a practicer. Like, I don't really get off on the PhD stuff. Like, I can talk that stuff. But at the end of the day, like, I'm a practitioner. And so, as you know, the church and the academy in the early days was married. And so I want to be able to bring the practice of a practitioner with the mind of a scholar and be able to influence the next generation.

Because, man, there are things that seminary didn't even come close to preparing me for. I mean, I learned how to write papers in Turabian and learned some great things, but the art of pastoring happens in the midst of being in the field with the sheep, stepping in sheep paddies. One last question, Derwin. If somebody is a pastor, leader of a white dominant church, and let's just assume that their surrounding area is more multicultural, you know, than the church reflects,

what are the first steps a leader, pastor, teacher needs to take to move towards creating a multicultural type environment? Because I hear, I know a lot of people who have the heart. There's just a lot of like, I don't even know how to get there. And meanwhile, I'm trying to save this marriage and, you know, make sure people stay in the doors and preach a sermon. And I know for a lot of people, there's a desire there, but because it's not maybe their primary desire, they do need some help to kind of move in that direction. What would be some steps you would recommend? Yeah, I would say the first thing is to get my book, The High Definition Leader, Building Multi-Ethnic Churches in a Multi-Ethnic

World. Spend a good year really learning the theology. Then get your elders, your deacons, whoever influences the church, walk them through it for a year, pray and fast. And don't just hire minorities to do music. you know um um higher qualified minorities to preach and to teach and to give vision and to give direction um you know because it's gonna take time um what i'm often asked at conferences is how did you become a multi-ethnic church? And I would say that's the wrong question. I think you need to ask why we are the way we are. And then I take them through the theology of God's covenant with Abraham. And because of that theological gospel conviction,

here are the practices we practice, and they're rooted in scripture. You have a multi-ethnic leadership team, not tokens. You have cultural competency. Most white churches have a few minorities that have, and again, I'm not going to name any names or whatever, but they have assimilated. They're still singing kind of white songs, the white beat, which is no beat. And they're not actually bringing ethnic difference to the culture of the church. It is assimilation. with a lot of my pastor friends, the first thing they do is they go hire a black worship leader and be in, and basically want them to be the black savior. And it's not that they want multi-ethnic church. They want a multicolored church.

I define multi-ethnic as in the ethnicity share in shape and power. And so a lot, you know, if a preacher is charismatic and white, they can tend to have a multi-ethnic congregation, but it's not multi-ethnic leadership. And I call that a spiritual plantation. Seriously, there will be no talk of things that matter to minorities because it's still shaped by the majority culture spiritual plantation did you coin that yeah that's dark man but that's good um i coined that phrase specifically to shock people because majority culture people aren't used to acquiescing.

Everybody adjusts to them. And so if you really want to know if a church is multi-ethnic, don't look at the congregation. Look at the staff. Look at the elders. Look at who teaches. Look at who exerts authority and power. Yeah. What about one more question similar but so boise as you know

92 caucasian might be six percent latino latinx i think it's probably 0.9 african-american and they're all on the boise state football team exactly Exactly, exactly. Even our, we have a couple, well, one evangelical, quote unquote, black church in town, and it's like 70% black. I mean, it's still, it would be more. I mean, even the pastor says it's this. I don't really pastor a black church.

I pastor a multi-ethnic church. It's not, you know. So what would you, I mean, but I could see a sense like people in Boise who aren't like overtly racist. I wouldn't say they're racist. There may be some of that deep down stuff like, you know, if tons of black people start moving in their neighborhood, they might get a little nervous, you know, but they're not. They're then. Yeah, they're not overtly racist. They're like, you know, they would want a multicultural congregation. They'd be challenged by it, I think. But then they look around and say like, I'm not like busting white people in.

Like, that's just what the city is. Are they kind of off the hook or? Yeah, no, no. So all ministry is local, right? And so you want to reflect your community. So if the community is 90% white and your church is 90% white, then you're going to be 90% white. And so what you have to do then is create partnerships with the other. But what I would say, particularly for people in Idaho and Montana is it's not really a black and white

thing. It's Native Americans and white. It blew me away the first time I went to Montana. And I was like, oh my gosh, people live on reservations. You've got the alcoholism, you've got the drug, you've got the suicide, you've got the mental health. And it's like, well, how could you not feel this way when your dignity and land has been stripped and you've been castigated to a plot of land? Like you're not even fully integrated. So what I would say is in Boise and Montana, you look towards the Native Americans, like how are we with Native Americans? But then also what do international mission trips like have your church in Boise, like come down here to Transformation Church and experience and, and serve with with us, you know, so it you have to your your our desire

to go make disciples of all ethnos is not just cross the sea. It's my community as well. That's so good. Derwin, I've taken too much of your time. The book that he referenced again is The High Definition Leader. I've read this book. It's outstanding. What I loved about it, Derwin, as you've reflected in this conversation, is it's incredibly practical, incredibly practical, but it's so theological too. I know it's not your dissertation, maybe level, practical, but it's so theological too. I know it's not your dissertation maybe level or whatever, but it's like this is such a perfect blend of practicality. But it's not fluff. He's not just quoting a verse here and there.

He's building everything from a rich theology. So yeah, the high definition leader. I couldn't recommend – I mean you mentioned the leadership going through that. I think that would be a – yeah. Having read the book, I think that would be an outstanding thing for you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, um, before we get off, um, I, I, I just want to encourage you, uh, with the work that you are doing in the LGBTQ space. Um, I just, uh,

we use your book of people to be loved as a resource. Um, and so I want to thank you for not only your, your theological honesty, but also the love and care in which you engage this people group who the church has not engaged well. And so, man, you are doing just incredible work and it's helped us tremendously. Our church, because we're multi-ethnic, we draw a lot of LGBTQ people. A matter of fact, I'm going to answer email here in a moment and I'm going to reference your work. So, um, I just want

to encourage you to continue leading the way and charitability and grace and truth while at the same time, uh, holding on to the beauty of the orthodox orthodoxy of what the scriptures say, but also being honest about, you know, Hey, this old Testament passage is not saying what you're saying. You know, so, man, appreciate you tremendously. Thank you so much, man. That seriously means a lot. And we'll be in touch, man, because I got a bunch of questions to follow up on that. Yeah, if we had the time, I would love to explore how can we de-white the evangelical conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender.

And I've been, the last year, have been focused hard on trying to do that. And man, it's not easy. There's an intersection of race and yes, it is in my, in, in the minority experience on various levels. And it's, it's I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. So I'm going to need your help on that. Yeah. Yeah, man. We'll, uh, we'll have to chop it up on that again, man. Hey, you have a wonderful day. Enjoy, uh, those beautiful mountains in Boise. Thank you, man. Appreciate you.