Theology in the Raw - 697: #697 - A Conversation with Jennie Allen

Episode Date: October 1, 2018

On episode #697 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Jennie Allen. Jennie is the Co-Founder and President of the IF Gathering and an author of several books. You can check out her Bible studies, books and blog on her website. Follow Jennie on Twitter. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today a special guest, Jenny Allen, who is the co-founder and president of the IF Gathering. The IF Gathering is a massive, global, and I do mean extra massive and extra global, discipleship movement for women in the church. It is absolutely incredible what God has done with this ministry. I'm super excited to hear from Jenny Allen. And speaking of discipleship, I want you to check out a few new resources that we have produced at the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender. Go to centerforfaith.com, click on the store link, and you will see several new resources, including Grace Truth 2.0, five additional studies on faith, sexuality, and gender. Grace Truth 1.0 is a five-week small group learning experience, and Grace Truth 2.0 is

an additional five-week learning experience for those who want to learn about faith, sexuality, and gender. We also have another resource called A Pastor's Resource. A Pastor's Resource is a way for pastors to move from good ideas to implementation. I talk to pastors all the time that say, look, okay, I get it. We need to be filled with grace and truth. We need to stick to the word of God and understand what the Bible says about marriage and sexuality, but we also need to open up our arms and love and care for LGBT people. We're not doing that well. Okay, I get all that.

How do we do that? How do we move from good ideas to implementation? So a pastor's resource is just that. It comes with a whole guide on how to preach on sexuality and gender. And there's another guide, a large document called the Pastor Leader's Guide that just helps you to walk through steps of implementation. It comes with several short, high quality testimonial videos. It comes with sample sermons that you can watch and several other things that can help you move from ideas to implementation.

That's a pastor's resource. We also created a small group leaders kit for Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0. So that if you're a leader or want to be a leader of a small group study on Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0, you can buy the small group leaders kit and they'll give you, the leader, everything you need to start that study. All that you would need in addition to that are books for the other members of the group. But other than that, it comes with all the DVDs, a leadership guide on how to lead a small group study. And so it just makes it convenient for you to get started. So without further ado, let's talk with Jenny Allen. Hello friends, welcome to another episode of Theology in the Raw.

I am here, I'm super excited about this interview because I have Jenny Allen on the line. Way over in Texas. She is chiming in to Theology of the Raw. Now, if you don't know the name Jenny Allen, you will probably know the name The If Gathering. Jenny is the founder. And I don't know what your official title is. You can correct me in a second. But the founder, director, CEO, owner, president, whatever, she's the one that

runs the IF gathering. And if you don't know what the IF gathering is, then I encourage you to hit pause right now, maybe Google it. And yeah, you can be blown away because I mean, this gathering has just, to the surprise of Jenny, when we first talked, I mean, you were just blown away at how this thing just absolutely took off. So thank you so much, Jenny, for being on the show. And I would, if you could, well, just give a brief background to yourself. And then I want to get quickly to just when the If Gathering started to just explode and you were like, oh my gosh, what is God doing with this? Like I want to linger in that space for a while. So, but yeah, I give a background of who you are and, and we'll. Sure. So yeah, I grew up loving God. Um, but I wouldn't say I was saved till I was about 17

years old where I understood truly like my need for a savior and, and pretty much fell in love with God fast. I mean, it was pretty dramatic at 17. And I remember coming home and trying to teach my Bible to a bunch of younger girls. And I actually chose as a new believer, the book of Revelations, because why not? Every person should brave that book right away. And so discipleship and like investing in women was clear, clearly my gift and passion starting in the very beginning. And always did that, always taught my Bible to a living room full of women,

young and old, all the years of my young marriage, young childbearing years. And then had the opportunity to go to seminary. I went to Dallas Theological Seminary with my husband when he was preparing for the pastorate. We started a church. And then I taught a bible study I remember um my first one that I kind of opened up and didn't just invitation only there was 150 women that showed up and and it was called stuck it's actually one that's published now and just saw people being saved and through that and through my next study chase that I taught

through our local church and and I was discipling 12 new believers. And so I think it began just to take a life of its own after that, just, you know, sending those studies to other churches and publishing it or the picture at that point. And then, yeah, and then If Gathering kind of grew up beside that. Beside that, the passion of my soul is to see this entire generation disciple, that we would reclaim discipleship as the means, God's means to save the world. I mean, that's how he called us to live. That's what he called us to do. That's how his kingdom would go forward. So I was blessed to be discipled through Campus Crusade for Christ in college. That was kind of the first time I saw something in a more official role in my life really, really change the way I was living. And so I just so believe in it and want to help

women along in that. So the vision of If Gathering is disciple generation. It's been the vision and hope since the beginning. And it's happening happening you know discipleship starts largely with gathering and so the power of the gathering part is that we've gathered a lot of people and moving them deeper into that equipping and to the unleashing part of that is really what we spend our time in this office thinking about and building and working on is so what what yeah what was it though that the very very beginning of the like what was it though at the very beginning of the, like what did you, the very first picture of what it could be, what was it?

Was it just an outgrowth of the Bible study you're doing at church or was it this kind of big multimedia thing? Oh, no. I mean, we started so haphazardly. I just knew that women were craving something real, something deep, something honest. And so when we started pulling women together, we actually did it behind the scenes in smaller formats prior to the first Big If. And I think we saw a need for it.

I knew the biggest goal was that we would do life-on-life relationships. It wouldn't be stadiums all over the world. It would be living rooms and homes and local churches. We are such fans of the local church. And so we really wanted whatever we did to be something that the local church and that leaders within the local church could use to bring their friends and neighbors together. We were looking at a generation that was very turned off in large part leaving the church. And so we didn't want to just give the next big conference to attend in the stadium and they go

home and they never connect with their local church. We wanted to build a world where they actually met people in their communities. And I mean, this has happened. It's so cool, the story. I was actually at dinner with some IFF local leaders in Northern California, and one of the waitresses came over to the leaders in the room and said, my name is so-and-so, and I want you to know I was in the back of the local IFF that you hosted. And I had just gotten out of prison, and a friend brought me. And I just want you to know that at that point, I rededicated my life to Jesus and I've been attending that church.

And that's what the dream was, was that they wouldn't come to a stadium to hear great speakers, but that they would meet. It was cool because I was sitting there, the leader of IF, and they had come up to the IF local leader. They didn't come up to the speaker. They came up and I just, everything about that was my heart. It was like, this isn't about, you know, we have awesome, fantastic speakers,

but it never was about that for me. It was, we want to equip you. You're the heroes in the trenches building your local disciples and in your local churches. And we want to support you and build tools for you to do that well. So it's just cool how that has happened. For somebody who doesn't have a clue what we're even talking about, what is the IF Gathering? Sure. So we build tools and experiences for women to make disciples through the local church. So that's the tagline. And one of those tools that the one that most people know of is once a year,

we have a gathering. It has been in Austin this awesome this year will be in Dallas of a few thousand but it reaches hundreds of thousands so our safe estimate of last year's gathering was 700,000 people attended but that's like that's probably 250,000 strings and we have events that are up to a thousand apiece so it's likely over a million, but, but we don't know. We just know that it's a lot of people and that's cool. You're like as someone that follows Jesus and doesn't want to get caught up in numbers, it's kind of cool that we don't know. We just know it's a whole lot of people and we know that it's,

it's so cool because it goes across denominations. Every, I mean, we have diocese Catholic, you know, diocese leading it. We have conservative churches. We have, you know, because we really try to stick to the main things. We keep things simple and pure. That's kind of our grid. And it's not that we won't attack needed issues relevant to the gospel. I mean, one that we've attacked every year is racism and what does it look like to build unity and to actually build, you know, one of my dearest friends, Latasha Morrison, has been part of it since year two and she launched her ministry, Be the Bridge, out of that, which is racial reconciliation circles,

and that's spreading through the church right now. So it's just, you know, it's not that we won't tackle the big hard stuff. It's that for the most part, we keep things pretty simple and pure unless we feel like there's something that we're really specifically called to deal with our address. How many countries are represented? Do you know? Um, we've reached, typically we reach over 120, which I think there's only like 150. So that's kind of crazy. And then, you know, but, but we'll have actual local leaders on the ground and probably, you know, 50 to 60 of those. So they, so you had this big, I mean, for lack of better terms,

it's a big conference, maybe like other conferences, the way it's done, but then it's simulcasted out. And you have, but more than just simulcast, like, hey, attend a conference in your living room, but it's actually intentionally targeting people in their local churches to come, be inspired, to gather, and then now go in your own communities and do this, right? Is that kind of the goal of it?

Absolutely. Yeah, we see ourselves as a gathering tool. So when somebody plugs it in, we've got a map on our website that we're sending out to tens of thousands of people. So what ends up happening is strangers come together in local churches or in homes. And it's kind of creepy. It's just amazing. Like people just don't know each other

and then they come together and they end up spending a day and a half together. Yeah, it's been amazing to see the women that never saw themselves as leaders host. And all of a sudden it grows and grows and they're leading a massive event in their community and get asked to be the women's ministry leader i mean that story has happened i've heard it over and over again that they are all of a sudden they never saw themselves as a leader and now they're

hired by their church because they're just making disciples and they're doing a great job at it and the pastor or the elders notice and so we've seen we've seen it my heart was always if this is not a compliment and a blessing to the local church, then we're not going to do it. My husband was a church planter. We are local church people. So if I ever felt like it got in the way of the local church or hurt the local church, we would shut it down tomorrow. And I mean that. But we have seen that prayer answered, that it has been enough.

That's kind of unique because I don't, and I'm definitely not gonna name any names. I don't even have any names in my mind or whatever, but there, there can be this conference, parachurch, like experience that is also somewhat critical or almost like, yeah, we can do it better than the church kind of thing, you know, and I've experienced that on various levels. And it's pretty rare to hear somebody that has a parachurch kind of thing that is doing discipleship, which is what the church should be doing, but you are doing it not just alongside or like, yeah, you should go to church too. But like, to hear you say like, if this isn't actually helping the church, then we'll close it down like that. To me, in my experience, that's pretty unique.

Well, and you've got to think how many thousands of churches are in places where they're never going to get a big conference come to their town. They're never going to get, you know, speakers. And for some of them, you know, so I think what we get to do is we get to be this catalytic tool that brings women together in their churches in a way that maybe they couldn't afford to bring in people. But then hopefully what they'll do and what we encourage them to do is, you know what, we go away, we fade into the distance, and they take our tools or have their own tools and make disciples all year. That's the goal. Okay.

When did you start the first IF gathering how long are we talking here like eight ten years or no no so this is gonna be our sixth year so we've just been six just over five so how many people were at the first one not physically but like how many people well the first year we sold out pretty quickly and then it was about 40,000 streams that year which blew our minds we couldn't believe that um and so it's been crazy to see it grow every year and we keep thinking like we'll people peak or whatever and then god keeps you know causing it to grow so i'm still and i don't care like we we almost shut it down this year just because we didn't have finances we've kind of had a funny model with finances we just said pay what you can and yeah you can imagine that's been trust at every corner

um but we didn't have any big donors we've never had any big donors and so or very few and so it's just been this faith journey even in that and and so it got to a place this year that it was like well you can give severance if you if you start paying it soon and to your staff and close the doors. And I was like, great. Okay. Like God, we're done. We, you know, we did our job. We raised up a lot of female leaders around the world. Okay. Check. We're out. And, and not that I don't love it and believe in it. It's just, I hold it very loosely.

We want to serve our purpose and then we want to go away. And so, yeah. So you, you don't charge, you don't charge anything. It's all give what you can. And am I hearing you say that that hasn't covered your costs? Every year. Exactly. And then this past year it didn't, but I think it was also time for a shift. We do charge now, just very minimal for tickets, but it helps us make better plans. So we know when that money is going to come in.

But I think it caused, what it did was it caused us to have to relook at finances and handle things differently because that was a great way to start, but it's not a great way to sustain a ministry. And so, you know, we, this year specifically, we are going to charge for the first time. And, but yet every year God did provide. And that was why I couldn't let go of it. But I think finally, you know, we were hearing from everyone, Hey,

it's actually more complicated this way for our people. They don't know what to pay. You know, some people are just like, just tell us that we're going to keep it a super low, low. I mean, it's very doable for anyone. Like what was, what's the cost? So you're going to come to Dallas in the room, it's $150. But if you're going to attend anywhere else, it's $15. And honestly, that $15, some churches forgo that price.

They just pay us and skip paying other people. So there's going to be plenty of events that are free to attend if you can't afford that. So yeah, we're trying to just make it a non-issue. You know, I really battle with that. I talked with, um, I don't know if you know, the guys at the Bible project, Tim Mackey and John Collins, you know, those guys, they do the Bible videos. Yeah. And they have a, yeah. How do they do this? I use their stuff all the time for free. So from the very beginning, it was, uh, I had Tim Mackey on the podcast and he said, it was John's passion that we will not that we will do this for free and we will raise support. Now, they've done a great job.

They have a ton of money. They've got a ton of people that want to invest into this. So they haven't had any problem financially. It's all come in. But that's different. It's not really paid. It's not like – it's like side by side they release the videos they produce them and then when more money comes in until they get the you know 10 20 grand it takes

to produce another video then they'll do another one but that started to snowball because the quality is so off the chart everybody's blessed by it and we so so we give a lot of things away for free we have if equip which releases almost every weekday. And this is a discipleship tool that we give away on the app and online for free. We give away all of almost everything. So it was, it was kind of just time to organize our systems and cause, you know, some things to pay for, but you know, God's provided and he'll keep doing it. And I do battle with that because on the one set, on the one hand,

I so admire that. So admire the faith. I think we need a lot more generosity in American evangelicalism. And there's so many things I love about it. But then on the flip side, I'm like, but I don't, you know, I don't criticize my Christian doctor for charging me to, you know, perform surgery on me or my dentist to pull out my teeth. I don't say, hey, you know, can you give us, you know, and like, I don't, if you produce whatever it is and your husband, I mean, Zach, Zach and I've talked about this. I mean, the kind of holistic vision of Christianity, like it's not like Christian ministry and everything else. It's like, no, everything should be done for the glory of God in the kingdom. And, and so I don't, um, I would get really nervous about a Christian ministry,

like overcharging or where it gets that sleazy feel of, it just feels, yeah. And you, I mean, you guys are obviously the exact opposite, but, but, um, but I don't know. Like, I mean, people have judged that in Christ. We just, you know, I think about Paul and he's like, I mean, by whatever means necessary. And for us at that time, it was like, let's just strip down everything. Like what's preventing people from connecting with God and let's just strip it all away. And, you know, I think about when Paul was like, hey, I mean, I could charge you, but I'm not going to, to preach the gospel because I just don't want it

to be a distraction. And that's kind of how we wanted to start. And I don't think it was a good move. I mean, it worked, it spread fast and we're going to keep that in the sense of that morning if you want to turn it on you're gonna be able to find it we want accessibility we don't want to limit that we want it to go out to those 125 countries we don't want them to have to pay $15 so there will be a continued accessibility to what we do and that's you know as long as we can pay the bills we're a nonprofit so there's nobody getting rich off of it which is nice I mean there's nobody that owns it. There's no owner. I'm a founder visionary, but we have a board that runs it, helps run it, a staff team.

But it's just interesting. Yeah, I'm torn on that a lot. But I do feel like, I mean, $15, people spend – I mean, that's a bottle of wine. That's not even a date at the movies. That's two buckets of popcorn. It's like a couple lattes. Well, hopefully what it says to people is, hey, they're not trying to get rich. They're trying to pay the bills. Totally. That's totally what's happening. I mean, we just don't, I want Christians to feel the freedom to, to charge money and be able to make a living off of a good solid product that

is helping discipleship. Cause I mean, let's face it, Christians in the church, they're going to spend money on all kinds of stuff. I mean, just, just whatever, you look at the latest carpet or series of flat screens in a youth group, like the church, a Christian church, evangelical church spends a ton of money on all kinds of stuff that doesn't really contribute, one could argue, towards discipleship. And yet you're doing something that is by definition discipleship.

I don't, I admire the faith journey you were on before, but I'm like, charge 20, 30 bucks even. Like, well, no, I don't. But nobody's been in an uproar everybody understands i mean that's the thing it wasn't that that we were having a mass cry don't charge it was just yeah um i think people are gracious and they understand that things cost money totally it also i'm sure it could look funny too like you weren't charging anything and now you are like what does that mean could people could some you know 0.01 of the people out there you know say why are they doing that or see we'll say we almost shut down because we didn't have enough money right totally it kind of came

at the right time because while god was meeting our needs through all of these generous people all these years um 15 at a time 25 at a. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. But when it got to the place where it's like, we might have to shut down. I was like, okay, now, now I'm willing, let's revisit. Cause we don't want to shut down. So. So if someone's listening out there, I have a couple of questions and they're like, well, gosh, this sounds awesome. I've heard about it, but I mean, is it even, I don't even know, does my church do it? Is it in my city?

Like how would they actually find out, you know, do local churches, are they good at advertising it or should they go to the IF website and then find, oh, okay, my church doesn't do this, but several others are, or is it even that, could they even just talk to their friend and maybe their friends hosting a gathering or something? So ifgathering.com is where you can choose. You can host in your home. You can become an IF local leader. There's where you can choose. You can host in your home. You can become an if local leader. There's not much to that. You have to belong to a local church and be in submission to that church. And then, too, you have to want to, you know,

initiate for the good of others in your community. That's our two big, only two qualifications. And so we have, you know, over, I think there's over 12,000 if local leaders, and then there's over, there's over 2,500 events. And so last year there were, so we'll have the sign up for this gathering that's coming in February. So February, second week in February every year is when we gather. And then you can also host live with our event and watch it live from your home or church. Or a lot of people will get the digital download and watch it in the weeks following as well. So there's two ways to host. And it's super special.

I mean, it's so fun to know that all over the world literally the world at the same time that we're there um there's women gathered and so i think it's special to do it live but for bigger gatherings sometimes it's nice to do it after the fact but all of that information is at your website's incredible by the way too i was looking at that like i was like a little four-year-old like all these multimedia stuff's going on. Like, this is incredible. So, okay, so they can just go to the website and find out there's something going on there. So there's several things. There's stuff going on throughout the year.

This is not just one big gathering. And then is it kind of like Q Commons? Yeah, so we are putting out local events all throughout the year because of local leaders gathering it but it is we do not have a plethora of different conferences the way that q commons has we have one big one and then people distribute that throughout the year and so we have a map though um to attend in february and it's got we'll we'll have it doesn't yet because we're just opening registration in a few weeks but it will have a map and you can see if there's one in your city. I think in Dallas, there's like 60 or something crazy. So I think in most cities we represented,

there's an if gathering you can attend, um, within, you know, a few weeks after registration, those will show up. I got to check it out and see if you're in Boise. I'm sure. If Boise, yeah, we do. If Idaho, we've got lots of, do. It's pretty cool. I mean, really, it's amazing. I travel and I just can't believe it. How many people feel like they're a part of this community. I mean, it's their ministry too. That's what I love about it is when whenever I meet a stranger, you know, I'm in Idaho and I'll be like, well, we are doing this and we are doing that, and they've owned it. It's not just like your ministry.

This is theirs, and they feel, in some ways, as much ownership as I do because they're risking for it. They're building it in their community. It's beautiful. So you said you travel. Do you travel around to meet with local leaders, or what forces you or enables you to travel? So I speak.

I speak. I speak. Okay. Yeah. So I'll go on tour two weekends in the fall and two weekends in the spring. I go with Christine Knuckles and we lead nights of worship and yeah. I forgot to mention your books. Hey, for my audience, Nothing to Prove, Restless, and Anything. Do you have a fourth book or are those the three?

Yeah, three. And then Bible Studies. That's really what I love the most that got me into this. And so if you go to JennyAllen.com, she's got a link on her books and then a bunch of different Bible studies and stuff. So be sure to check that out. I mean, I, yeah, I think even though, I mean, from my vantage point there is a lot of

there's a lot of stuff out there there's a lot of noise on maybe discipleship or small group this, small group that but your stuff is and I'm not just saying this because you're on the air but it's high quality thank you

every other person I meet today is a writer and they've done this, that, and they're doing this Bible study, whatever, and podcasts. And it's like, and I don't, I'm not, maybe I'm told, you know, nothing but crap either. I'm not saying like I haven't got it figured out either, but yeah, your stuff is really thoughtful. I mean, you have a seminary degree, you've been doing this. So my hope is that, you know, when I was in semin seminary i just felt like this is not for the special christians like this is you know i look at stuck which is my first study and it's

really sanctification 101 it's it's how we believe god for change you know and so i hope that it is i've been so blessed to be given such great theological understanding i hope that and biblical understanding i hope that i get to give that away in a fair way that helps the cause of the gospel. Okay. So what was it like being a woman at DTS at Dallas seminary? Was that, was that 20 years ago? So it's different than today, but they'd let you in my seminary. I went to master's seminary. Women weren't allowed to, there still aren't. I don't think, yeah, they're not allowed to attend.

They can't, you can't go, but yeah, no, I, I loved it. I mean, I had amazing professors. I never, um, I've never felt, I've been blessed to feel the support of men in my life and in ministry. I really have an incredible husband that, um, he's the one that told me to go to seminary. He's the one that pushes me out the door when I'm speaking. Did you ever feel like the condescending or like the subtle kind of like, well, you're just a woman in a man's kind of sphere. Have you felt that?

No, every woman's felt that, but I'm someone who kind of plays dumb and ignores it and assumes the best. Cause I, I've really, again, I've been blessed. I feel like I've had seminary professors who I still to this day are some of my biggest fans and supports with it gathering. In fact, several of them are on If Equipped videos if you go there because they just believe in women

and they wanna see theology given in unique ways to humans, but even especially to women. And so I don't know. I feel like, yeah, I picked up on that some. But I also just, I'm such a believer in keeping your head down. And there's enough work. I don't have to go fight for a right somewhere because, gosh, that would just take energy from the thousands of women God's called me to steward and disciple. So, you know, I just, I kind of just keep my head down and,

and, and I think, you know, and I just, I don't know, I just believe the best. And, and then I think that so many men really do want to see the gospel go forth and, and they really respect women. And, and sometimes this division that comes up in the church and, and with men and women, um, you know, it's, it's kind of a conversation. I, sometimes I'm watching it and I feel like it's very fear-based on both sides, you know, it's like, now who are you talking to? Um, you know, who are you talking to the women in your church that are trying to serve? Or are you talking to the internet? You know, I think sometimes it's like, well, if you talk to the women in your church, like most of serve or are you talking to the internet you know i think sometimes it's like well if you talk to the women in your church like most of them really want to just see the gospel go out they want to see people left well they really aren't you know in this demanding

posture i think and i and i've often i just on the women's issues i just leave that up to local churches i just think forever for all time to come and for all time that has to local churches. I just think forever for all time to come. And for all time that has been local churches have had to wrestle. Elders have had to wrestle with those verses and they've people got to land on it for themselves. And then when you're, when you choose your local church, ask those hard questions. But once you choose, like support that church and play your role and do your part. And, and I found when I do that, um, a lot of favor and, and there's not, um, I don't know. I just, I've,

I've been blessed to find it easy to minister in the context of, you know, churches that are largely conservative. Do you have a view on that? Have you worked through that? I mean, obviously you have, but do you want to talk about it? Yeah, sure. I don't know. I mean, everybody's terminology is defined differently. So I don't like the terminology, but I will say I very much appreciate the word submission. I think it's probably, for me, it has always meant protection. I have felt protected by my husband. I have felt protected by our elders. That has never represented hostility or abuse or handing you in his represented support and pushing out and so i have not um struggled that word however i do believe that that word rightly

so has been absolutely wielded against women in unhealthy abusive ways and i think that's where the church has got you know that's where the church has got, you know, that's where the fear-based conversation is coming from. And it's from a very real place. So while I have not felt that a lot and I've chosen to kind of forgive and live the other way when I have felt it, I have heard stories that are insanely wrong and abusive on church's parts, on husband's parts, whatever.

So I say that with open hands and then complete, you know, transparency that, that for me, it has gone well for me, but for many, many women has not gone well. And you look at the movement and you look at the church to movement and what that is, is this recognition of how unhealthy some things have gotten. Now that does not mean that all men are like that. I think that's where I feel like it's important for women just to, to always kind of say like, Hey, we're talking about people that have abused something. And that is not speaking to mankind.

You know, we're talking to, um, to those that have abused something. And so, um, in the healthy churches I have been in for the most part and, and under the leadership of my husband for most of the years we've been married, that has done well for me. But I say that kindly and softly because I know for so many women, they are, they hear that word and it represents just incredible wounding and possibly abuse physically, emotionally. That's a great distinction to, to understand the word in its New

Testament first century context, submission, which we're all called to on several levels, it is a beautiful gospel thing. And yet, when read through the lens of an abuse of that concept, we need to be very understanding and empathetic of people that have gone through, not somebody living out what the Bible is trying to say with that word, but how people have totally abused that. Which, yeah, the Me Too movement in the last, even the last year or two years in evangelicals has been weird, hasn't it? I mean, God, I'm glad that some of these power structures are being exposed. Injustice being exposed is always a good thing. And yet it's also very, it's also very troubling and discouraging too. It's like every time a new story comes on, like really like that person and that movement and oh man, it's just, I don't know.

Are you hoping, so I mean, you went to seminary 20 years ago. Have you seen things change quite a bit or do you feel like, man, we still have a long way to go or do you feel like man we've turned a huge corner and things are looking good for a woman's place in evangelicalism yeah i mean i think it's both you know i i think i am able to do more than any other generation of women have ever done i'm watching women do more all across the world for the gospel in ways that no other generation has seen or done. So, I mean, I've, I've actually feel like the greatest contribution we've given to the church is a, is a newly revitalized,

mobilized army of humble godly women that are saying, I want to make disciples through the local church. I think we've given women a great love and affection for their local churches and they, they want to help build them. They're wanting to be part of the change and the help in the community. So I feel so much hope. I mean, when I travel, it's like when I'm looking eye to eye

and hearing the stories, I mean, it's not matching what I hear on the internet. However, I think we can't be afraid of the digging up of the unhelp. I always say that that is the grace of God to, you know, I tell you this to my kids even, like if you're caught, if something is broken, it's noticed, like that is grace. And, and so we've got to recognize the grace right now that's happening and not turn a blind eye to the abuse, not turn a blind eye to the, to the hurt, you know, and dig our heels in and say, oh, you're, you're being a victim.

I mean, come on, like everybody's, you know, finally feeling brave enough to say something because they're not alone. Like that's what we do. They just don't feel so – they feel the protection of the group, right? And so what a time to listen. And I think, you know, if I were a pastor right now, I think the one thing, you know, for women that pastors can do is to really listen

and to have those people in your life rather than to say, okay, here's my stance and I'm going to have a stance on everything and I'm going to, you know, hold my ground. It's like, well, yes, on biblical truths we absolutely should, but how those biblical truths are reaching and loving and meeting people where they are, we've got to be like Paul and say, you know, that I'll become all things to all people so that some might be saved. Like, I think that's where the posture has got to be more open handed and saying, okay, what do I not know? What do I not understand about the situation?

And I have seen that in my own life with race. I've gotten to be a part of racial reconciliation groups and I've gotten to pull up a chair and listen and hear the stories and not form an opinion on a news story in my isolated white privileged mind with limited experiences I get to actually pull up to a table with women from diverse backgrounds diverse um coming from diverse experiences and I get to hear what it was like to to grow up with, you know, actually very real, like when you hear the stories, racist things happening to them. And I hear those stories, and I listen differently than to the news. And I think that's why listening has got to be a posture for all of us as believers right now

is just understanding. And when when you have friends that have been hurt by anything, it changes your view on issues. You know, I, my big thing is like, just don't have issues. Like just, just have people, have people that you love and that you know. And, and if the issues come up and you're forced to speak about them, make sure you're speaking on it with the people that the issue actually has affected. It just makes it such a big difference when you're, when you're speaking on it with the people that the issue actually has affected. It just makes it such a big difference when you're talking to somebody on the other side of the political divide, the social divide, the ethnic divide, the even religious divide. And when you get to know that person as a person, it just, it changes the entire tone of the conversation. It just changes everything. And I was just, you know, it's funny.

I just had a Derwin Gray. Do you know Derwin? He's a lead pastor of a transformation church. It's like the largest multi-ethnic church in America, one of them. And yeah, anyway, we literally just got off and I got on the air with you. And we just had a long, long conversation about race. So he's a black pastor. He's married to a white woman, played in the NFL for a number of years.

He's experienced racism from the black community because he's married to a white woman. Obviously not exclusively, but he's felt that. He's experienced racism on the other side of in-laws or whatever that once didn't accept him because he's black. And so all these different directions. And where I'm going with this is he told me some amazing stories about when he actually got to know the person who was a blatant racist. And then that person got to know him and realized he's a godly man. He's got a doctorate, like a master's and a doctorate. And all of a sudden now that person, that former racist is now his biggest advocate. And to me, that's just such heavenly

beauty when you see, I know the term racial or ethnic reconciliation is thrown around a lot these days, but when you see that happen, that is just, I don't know, for me, just an incredibly beautiful moment in humanity, really, when you see that happen. It is. And that's our hope is that, you know, it's funny. When you watch If Gathering, you'll see across the front, right in front of the stage, all these tables.

And people face inward, actually, not up to the stage. And it's cool. It's meant to be symbolic that this is ultimately our hope is that relationships are formed. And we believe that that is how lives are changed. We don't think it is over the Internet. Now, it's so funny because we're an Internet ministry. But, you know, my talk the last few years has been reminding everyone, like, we actually don't think that life change is in the hundreds of thousands. We think that life change is in the hundreds of thousands we think that life changes in the living

room it's in it's in the relationships that are made over a table we have something called if table where you invite there's six women at a table and we give conversation cards for that it's one of our most popular tools and I think it's because it is it's speaking the language of this generation I think everybody sees a need for it and they want they want to see change and they don't know how to make that happen over twitter but they do see it happen over tables and over meals and i'm such a believer in that that that's how jesus ministered to people constantly it was it often involved food and and so i think that's you know

i think it's it's what we're craving. We're all craving this. I mean, I would describe IF as like using the internet, but not an internet ministry. You're using the best of the internet to get into lives of embodied communities. You know, that's obviously your focus. One more question and I'll let you go. What do you see are some of the greatest needs specifically among women as you'd engage in this discipleship ministry? Are there certain themes that keep coming up?

And I'll just throw one out just in my very limited anecdotal experience. I just still hear a lot of just loneliness and disconnected and just that relational kind of void. Maybe a woman's been married 10, 15, 20 years and they've realized their husband can't fulfill all my relational needs. And, and yeah, I go to church and I smile and have conversations, but does anybody really know the deep down stuff that's going on? And, and I, I, it's sad that I hear that more often than I would want to. So anyway, that's been my, that's just anecdotal on my part, but yeah, what are some often than I would want to. So anyway, that's been my, that's just anecdotal on my part, but yeah.

What are some constant themes you see, you see coming up needs that you're trying to meet among women? I think what, I think that's a one that you're observant to notice. I do believe that that is, that is true. I think it's a symptom of the pressures that we all feel. I think that there's most women, when you sit down and talk to them, they feel like they're losing. They're not winning. They feel like they're losing on many fronts that matter to them. And so then it feels, it feels like, how do I keep all this up rather than how do I enjoy and savor and enjoy the life that God's given me and make the most of it? And so then it becomes pressure even to talk about the most important things, you know, and it's just laying on top of this already feeling like I'm not enough, I'm not measuring up. And I think that's real. I think the pressure of whether it's coming from

social media, or just the fact that many women work now and are also raising families, or even if you're single, the expectations the church puts on you, the expectations that friends put on you, I've heard the same frustrations and struggles from single women. So I don't think this is simply an issue of like, if you have five big categories of your life, I think, I think it's just this rat race of life and the way it lives in a very globally connected world where there's not a limit to our community. Like when you watch old shows, like shows where everything's set in like a town square and like there's the

grocery and there's the restaurant and there's the doctor and the church and like everyone like lives in this small radius. I think we were built for that. I think right now, like, it's just, it's like, there's no context. There's no end to our, our sphere of influence. There's no end to our sphere of influence. There's no end to our relational connectivity. I mean, we're supposed to keep up with our friends all over the world because we have Facebook and we're watching our kids grow up.

So I think we're just literally cluttered. I think our minds are just constantly stressed out. So I think the more what I hope and what hope if Gathering causes to happen is a shrinking of the world. I really believe that if you've got your few people that you're investing in, you've got your few people that are investing in you and your small group and a healthy church, and your mission is clear, but it's in front of your face, it's down your driveway, it's across the street. If you can kind of regain that control of your life and remember like, this is the most important work.

You're not, you don't have to reach the Hawaii world. This is the most important work. What's right in front of you. And if we each did that, you know, I think that's how the world changes. So I think really helping women believe that again and not continuing to add to that burden is a hope. That's so good. Jenny, thanks so much for being on the show again. Ifgathering.com, is that the Ifgathering website? Yes, that's a good place.

Ifgathering.com. Yes. And then also Jenny Allen, that's A-L-L-E-N.com for information on Jenny. I would seriously encourage my audience to check out the If Gathering to see, not if, but when the next If Gathering thing is happening in your city. So thanks so much, Jenny, for being on the show. Really appreciate it.

Thanks, Preston. Thank you.