Theology in the Raw - 703: #703 - A Conversation with John Whittaker

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

On episode #703 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with John Whittaker. John is a preacher, teacher and pastor. He holds theology and ministry degrees from Boise Bible College, Cincinnati Bible Seminary, and a doctorate in preaching from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. You can follow John on his instagram account. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. November 6th, I will be in Houston, Texas. That is just over a week away. I will be in Houston, Texas, doing a One Day Leaders Forum in the northwest end of Houston, Texas. If you want to go to that event, the One Day Leaders Forum on Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, you got to sign up like right now. It's going to be a full event, and there's just another week to sign up. right now. It's going to be a full event and there's just another week to sign up. So don't wait till the last second, sign up now. If you want to attend the One Day Leaders Forum on Faith, Sexuality, and Gender in Houston, Texas, also in Denver the next week, Denver, Colorado on November 12th, I'll be doing a One Day Leaders Forum on Faith,

Sexuality, and Gender. It's called the Leaders Forum. So if you're a church leader, if you're a Christian leader, if you're a thought leader, if you're a blogger, if you're interested in the conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender, then you should attend this event. They've been super effective and helpful for people that come. The reviews have been really, really good actually. And I'm really excited what God's been doing through those one day leaders forum. So you don't have to be like a full-time pastor or even a pastor at all. You can just be anybody who's interested in faith, sexuality, and gender, especially if you have loved ones who are LGBTQ, or if you are LGBTQ and are wrestling with your faith, sexuality, or gender identity, then I very much would love

to see you at one of those two events. That's Houston on November 6th and Denver on November 12th. Okay. My guest on this show is one of my first, well, you know, it's the first local guest I've had in a long, long time. I have had some local guests in the past, but most of my guests are somewhere else around the country. But my guest for this show is John Whitaker, Dr. John Whitaker. around the country, but my guest for this show is John Whitaker, Dr. John Whitaker. And this guy is one of my favorite Bible teachers. He is just, he has this rare ability to dig deep into the text of scripture to understand what is going on in the text of scripture. He's incredibly knowledgeable of the Bible, but he also can connect it to real life. He's a teacher, he's a preacher, and you're going to love this interview.

So let's welcome Dr. of Theology in the Raw. I am here with my good friend, John Whitaker, who is, I think you're my only guest to actually physically be in my basement. So this is kind of weird for me. Usually I have a guest, it's like I'm looking at through the computer screen, but John Whitaker is local talent. So John, thanks so much for being on the show. Thanks, Preston. It's good to be with you. And the basement's not too bad, so this should work.

It's a little drabby. I feel like I'm in a prison cell down here with the concrete walls and everything. But yeah, we've transformed it okay. So why don't we start by just giving us some background, who you are, and specifically like your ministry related background. I mean, you've been a pastor, you've been a teacher, and now you're kind of doing this. We'll talk about what you're doing right now. I think you're trying to figure out what the heck it is that you're doing, but give us some background on your ministry career, life experience, and so on. Yeah, yeah.

So I grew up in the Tacoma, Washington area, but I moved to Boise, Idaho in the late 80s to go to Bible college. And so I went to Bible college actually here in Boise, then did some grad school in other parts of the country. And then moved back here in the mid-1990s and started teaching at Boise Bible College. Taught there for 19 years and taught theology, taught New Testament, taught preaching and whatever else needed to be taught. And so that was a huge part of my ministry experience was teaching young men, young women who were interested in ministry, interested in learning the Bible. So I did that for 19 years. While I was there, I also helped plant a church out in a little bedroom community in the Boise area called CUNA, the church's New Beginnings Christian Church, helped plant that and get that going, preached there and led some adult ed courses there for a little while and did that for about 11, 12 years. And then

here, just a few years ago, I transitioned out of the college and I preached for really the last four years at a local church called The Pursuit. At the time, it was a of the college and I preached for really the last four years at a local church called The Pursuit. At the time was a multi-site church, preached there for about four years, and then transitioned out of that here just recently and yeah, doing some new stuff. So would you say you're a theological pastor or a pastoral theologian? Like, are you, you know what I mean? Like, are you, cause you have a obvious interest in just the academic side of Bible study. You're an in-depth teacher, but then you're also very much a pastor. Is there, are you, would you say you're like 50-50 or do you not even like those categories separated or?

Yeah, I don't, I don't quite know how to answer the question. I do know this. I, I, I have a pastor's heart. And so when I taught at the college, I always felt like I was a professor with a pastor's heart. And then when I preached to the church, I always felt like I was a pastor with a professor's heart. So those two are deeply blended in my heart and soul. I firmly believe that good theology should be rooted in the context of everyday life. And so I like to think of preaching as like blue jeans theology, theology for everyday life. And I even like to think of Bible teaching in a classroom, really, that should be rooted in everyday life.

And so those two always get blended together for me. Now, what are the areas that you specialized in? Is homiletics or the – what's the textbook definition of homiletics? The study of preaching? Yeah, the study of preaching, yeah. And you have a doctorate in preaching from Haddon Robinson? Yeah, yeah. I did a doctor of ministry from Gordon Conwell and studied under Haddon Robinson in preaching and the teaching of preaching. And so that was really, really helpful to me. Is it true, I've heard that Haddon Robinson, when you're in his classes and you're going up to preach in class or whatever, like you're not allowed to take notes up. Oh yeah. No notes. No notes. Not even like, not even a sticky note. In fact, a buddy of mine who

we were doing these classes together, who has always been a full manuscript preacher. Yeah. And he first sermon in front of Haddon, he thought, well, I'm sure he won't mind if I just have a sticky note with at least my flow of thought. Haddon saw the sticky note, made him pull it out of the Bible before he went to preach. And it was, yeah, it was a little rough. So what's the, well, what's the logic? I could probably kind of guess, but we have, what is the logic behind that? I mean, did he give the reasoning behind that? And do you believe in that or? Yeah. Yeah. Haddon actually did his, his PhD, um, in kind of oral oral communication, and his research was specifically in the effects of really limited or no-note speaking versus note speaking. And his studies found that you may forget 15 to 20 percent of what you prepared when you speak with little to no notes, but your audience will remember 80 plus percent of what you say because you're so much more engaging. It feels more like a real

conversation. So you're looking eyeball to eyeball. You're talking with the people. You've obviously, this message is obviously important enough for you to know, so then it's important enough for them to know. And so he was convinced from his studies that little to no notes actually meant you were far more engaging and your audience would actually engage with you, retain far more of what you say. Now, would he say that when you get done with the program, you go into your churches, would he be adamant, like, don't ever use notes? Or then, does he kind of tighten the shoelaces a little bit tight so that when you actually are running, it might loosen up a little bit? Like, is he okay with people having notes up there in the long run or yeah i think he would he i mean he would expect maybe you to bounce back but he would he would strongly emphasize minimal notes so if

you got to use some notes use some notes but keep them kind of brief keep them short and sweet and to the point and so you're not relying on your notes so it seems more like a genuine conversation so the main yeah the main point isn't the notes per se but are you making eye contact and talking to your people rather than kind of talking like because you can tell me for instance i mean i i not not as much now but i used to manuscript almost word for word now it's maybe 60 80 percent%. But even then, like I rarely, if ever, I'm looking at it. It's more for my own kind of preparation and going through it. And I'll even have it up there on the pulpit. But I'm rare, rarely do I ever look down and read more than,

I may glance at a sentence and then glance up and it recall, I kind of know what I wrote down, it's highlighted or whatever. But I'm not like, there's such a difference between reading something and making it feel like you're reading rather than just actually speaking. And that's the main thing, right? Yeah, that's really the main thing. Although I do think he would say it's to your advantage to have maybe just like a half page or one page. Really? Okay.

Sketch notes so that as a safety net, you really want it. But for the most part, you're, you've internalized the message and you're talking about what, what, you know, you know, he would say, look, when you get out, you know, photos of your kids or your grandkids, you don't have to have notes because you know it and you can just talk about it and it's lively and the intonation is more spontaneous and free. Well, that's going to happen if you, if you aren't really relying on notes. So just internalize your message and then speak it.

So what happens, because I've seen that done well. I'm thinking like an Andy Stanley or, you know, several of the well-known preachers that, or Francis Chan doesn't, he doesn't even have like a sermon. I mean, his sermon prep is five minutes before he'll get a word from the Lord or something and write it down on a napkin and then forget the napkin as he's walking up. That's actually a true story. I think he's, yeah. But I mean, so there's the kind of

people that are just obviously just really great speakers. They can just get up there. It's clear, it's engaging. But then I do see a lot of people who are trying to engage the audience, try to be relevant. And there's several times I'm like, man, it would have been good for you to write that message out ahead of time. Because it's just, it just, there's so many wasted words. It's actually not that clear. There's a lot of kind of cliches. And sometimes they, I can tell they're trying to land a plane. That plane just keeps on circling the pulpit over and over and over. And they're starting to lose their audience and they don't even realize it i mean what's the maybe yeah what what goes wrong there when people are trying to be

relationally engaging or whatever and it's just it's just doesn't yeah how can they not do that and still be extemporary and hadn't hadn't would say you should write your message out pretty much everything you want to say word for word so write the whole thing out internalize that but don't take take little or nothing with you into the pulpit. So he was a huge advocate for writing it out because it helps you get your thoughts clear. And he would actually talk about the importance of learning to write for the ear, not for the eyes. So good oral communication, write the way you would speak it, but write it out, get your thoughts clear, and then that will help you get your thoughts clear.

Use that to internalize the message, and then from there, speak it with little to no notes. That makes sense. Okay. Because for me, that, yeah, when you write it out, I found myself where I think something's clear in my mind. But when I start writing it out, I'm like, oh, yeah, that transition doesn't really work or whatever. Like it actually helps me kind of process that. And when you write it out and then you read through it a couple times, set it aside. Can you remember kind of the chunks and how you get from chunk to chunk of the message and if you can't go back look at it's like why couldn't i

remember is there a transition that's unclear is there maybe that that chunk really isn't necessary or is it out of order and figure out why you couldn't remember the flow and then once you remember the flow you can talk about it because you've actually thought yourself clear doesn't he say like if you can't remember where you're going and you're the one that's been preparing all week how do you expect other people coming in after fighting with their wife and kids rushing in five minutes late to sit down and remember what you actually yeah i mean yeah so really think yourself clear and if it's i mean if there's a little bit of unclarity in the pulpit then it's a complete complete fog in the pew kind of thing, is what Haddon would say.

What are some, I guess, yeah, if somebody, if people are listening and they're, you know, maybe they're preachers, teachers, or maybe they're aspiring preachers or teachers, or maybe they're just doing some sort of public communication. Do you have any kind of like some real basic foundational, like if you were going to die in five minutes and wanted to tell the world about some big things about here's what you need to do to become a good speaker, preacher, teacher. What are some of those big key ideas that you would share? Huh? Let's focus on preaching.

Okay. That's kind of what I know. Okay. So if like the most crucial thing is you need to internalize the message. It needs to be something that matters to you. It needs to be something that's vital to you. You know, like, in fact, my nephew just did some church planning assessment. He actually called me on the phone and said they want me to do a six, seven-minute little message.

How would you put together a six, seven-minute little message? And I was like, I would pick a passage that already means something to you, that you already know a little bit, that already has some connection to your life, and then begin to wrestle with that. So, you know, take something that matters to you, begin from there. You already have some confidence in, you know why it matters, that helps you get started, you know, and all that. I would want to make sure that you recognize that there's a relational component in speaking. You're not just teaching the Bible or talking to people about the Bible. You're talking to people about their life from the Bible, and that's critical. There's this relational component.

And so take that text and set it in the context of people's real life. Help them see the connection to that. Help them to see why it matters. The why is critical. And then when you're actually wrestling with the text, I think it's really important to think of yourself as a tour guide through the text so that you want to help point to why does that matter and point out this and notice that and check this out and here's why that matters and then bring all that together

into one central clear idea that you can kind of really drive home and connect to people's life. I guess on the flip side, when you look at other preachers and stuff, I mean, what are some, do you see some common mistakes that people make in their preaching? We're like, man, if I can get five minutes of this guy, I can help him with this or that. In fact, guy or girl. Ironically, on my website, I actually have a little freebie that's available to preachers, like six common missteps that preachers make. And one of them is failure to engage. You take off and you've been thinking about this all week. So you're warm to the text.

These people just came rushing in, right? They've had a crazy morning getting the kids ready. Who knows if they had an argument on the car on their way to church. And now you're ready to talk about this, and they haven't even thought about it. And you fail to engage. You take off driving away to give the message, and they're like, where in the heck are we even going? So failure to engage is a very common mistake. Is that real beginning, like the first few minutes?

Not only get attention, but help them know why they should listen. Why does this message matter? And a lot of preachers, they can get attention. They can tell a funny story, but they don't in any way clearly connect that to why this message matters. That's really important. Being boring with the Bible, that's one of the worst things you could do. I mean, you don't want people to think the Bible is boring. And that happens oftentimes by going down so deep and dealing with technical little details that no one really cares about or don't really matter. In fact, ironically,

my wife just texted me yesterday, talking to her coworker at church the other day, and he was like, oh, I heard this interesting thing that the disciple that Jesus loved wasn't the Apostle John. It probably was Lazarus. And my wife was like, I have never heard that. Why does that even matter? So she's texting me that, and it's like,

these little details that aren't really relevant or going down so deep into the text and dealing with all these niggly theological details or Greek or Hebrew details. And it's like never coming up for air and people get lost down there and then they check out. And, you know, so boring people with the Bible because you just have so many details.

Failure to connect the Bible to life, as I already mentioned. I mean, these are all common mistakes that I think a lot of people make. One thing that I see too is, I'm just, I, disdain would be too strong. Maybe, but like just these Christianese phrases that aren't given concrete meaning. You just talk about kind of spirituality and loving God and, you know, we've been forgiven. And all these things are beautiful, wonderful concepts, but we've heard them so much and they are abstract until we show how they're

concrete. Um, and sometimes I see people that they string together all these things. And I'm like, I agree with every thing that's coming out of your mouth. Uh, I believe it's all meaningful things, but it just is too abstract,

too familiar. And it's just not it's just not really gripping me. In fact, a Haddonism, a thing Haddon used to say was relevance is in the details. So rummage through people's lives and remember all the different people in the room, and that's a really important thing. Again, it's really easy for a preacher to speak to kind of his slice of life, his age of his kids, his hobbies and interests. Think of people who are older than you, younger than you, new believers, unbelievers, mature believers. You got all these different people in the room rummage through people's lives. How does the truth of this text actually show up for the self-employed, the unemployed, the, you know, the middle manager, you know, the blue collar, the white collar. I mean,

all these different kinds of people to the people who are just brand new to the Bible and don't, I mean, you know, and so relevance is in detail. So begin rummaging through people's lives. Think of the details where it fits in with people's lives. And then you take those abstract, pretty little Christian phrases and you can bring them down to life and say, this plays out this way, or this shows up this way. I love the phrase rummaging through their life. Rummaging through their life. But that only comes with being a pastor, not just a preacher, too. The best preachers are probably good pastors, too, that they know what's going on in people's lives.

You mentioned, just real quick, you mentioned your website. What's your website? And we'll come back to that at the end, but what's the case people were wondering? JohnWhitaker.net. So I didn't get.com. I didn't get.org. Those domains were owned by other people. So I got. were wondering? JohnWhitaker.net. So I didn't get.com, I didn't get.org, those domains were owned by other people, so I got .net, so JohnWhitaker.net. That's a common name, JohnWhitaker, so I'm surprised you even got that.

That's good. Two Ts. W-H-I-T-T. Two Ts, okay. Whitaker with a K. Yep, with a K. And you offer all kinds of coaching services, you have classes on there, podcasts, like this is, you live in the space of connecting in-depth Bible study, teaching, preaching to everyday life of the average person.

That's kind of my passion. That's my heart. So yeah. JohnWhitaker.net. We'll come back to that and talk about some resources he has on there. But oh, shoot, what was I going to say? This happened again last time on the podcast. I told you I had a major, a great question and it just like lost me.

Oh, oh, what is the role of humor in the sermon? So two extremes are, you know, the most effective sermon will be super funny. People will be rolling on the ground laughing all the way to don't joke behind the pulpit. You know, like that's just, you're just entertaining them. You're not teaching the word. And do you have like any opinions on that yeah um i mean i think i think humor needs to be appropriate to the subject humor needs to be appropriate to the audience and humor needs to be appropriate to the speaker like personally i'm not a stand-up comic for me to try to be you know try to tell jokes try to be super funny is just not

going to feel natural it's going to seem forced. The audience can tell. They'll see through it. And yet, I get laughs in my sermons. But just being you. But just being me, yeah, and just throwing in little things that are just kind of me. And so I think it needs to be natural. It needs to fit the preacher. I also think it needs to be appropriate to the subject. If you're talking about a really serious subject, you can actually spoil the impact of the message by inserting humor because you're afraid of being too serious. You diminish the kind of impact that you're already building. Yeah, you kind of burst the bubble of the significance of the message. But at the same time, there's a sensitivity to, you do got to come up for air.

You can't be serious for 30 straight minutes and all that. And I also know with younger people, serious for 30 straight minutes and all that. And I also know with younger people, my, my, my kids are 20 somethings, you know? So I know with younger people that my daughter always tells me I like that speaker because he's at least has some humor. He's funny. He makes me laugh and it loosens her up and makes her more ready to listen. So I think it's gotta be appropriate to the audience, the text and everything.

If all those things are in place, I mean, it does seem, and I don't know if this is i think it's probably proven psychologically but like when you laugh you just are more drawn into what the person's saying what's going on it's more interesting you're um and i'm kind of like you like i'm not i i'm a i'm not a joke teller but there are certain things i do so most of them are kind of just like something I'll cut into my mind. I have a split second. Do I say it? Do I not? Oh, here we go.

And I'll say it. And so sometimes, most of the time it works out pretty good and people laugh. And I can just tell like especially if they're getting a little bit like, man, this is good, but I'm getting kind of worn out. but I'm getting kind of worn out. Like the laughter just, it's like this, it's like popping like an energy pill, you know, during a marathon just because that burst of like, it gives you more space to keep talking about some serious stuff. And there's a relational connection in the speaking that people would rather

listen to somebody who smiles, who has a twinkle in his eye, who lights up a little bit. They would rather listen to somebody like that than somebody who's just serious and somber all the time. And so I think the smile, I think the laughter, I think it's important. I think you see that in Jesus. In fact, John 15, 11, night before Jesus is going to be crucified, he's sitting with his disciples in the upper room. He knows what's coming. He's been talking heavy stuff to his disciples all night, right? And there's this ominous cloud hanging over the night. And Jesus in John 15, 11 says, these things I've spoken to you that my joy might

be in you and your joy might be overflowing. He spent three years with these guys. There's no way he could talk about his joy with any credibility if he was a sourpuss. Zero. No way. If he wants him to have his joy and have that line come up with any credibility, then Jesus had to have a kind of joy that was desirable. And I think we need to make sure we picture Jesus that way when we picture him speaking, when we picture him interacting with his disciples. There's a twinkle in his eye.

There's a smile on his face. there's a light, a brightness about him that people would look at and say, whatever that guy has, I want it. I want that kind of joy. I don't know that we often think of Jesus that way. I certainly know. I mean, I had a whole semester's course on the doctrine of God, talking about the attributes and the works of God. Never once did we talk about God's joy. Never once. You know, three hours a week for 15 weeks, 45 hours, talking about the nature of God, never talked about his joy. So that intrigued me.

So I actually went to the library and started flipping through all these systematic theology books. Not a single one brought up God's joy. And yet the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, joy. There's a second one listed, and the Spirit can't give what he doesn't have. And all those other attributes, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, those are all attributes that God has. Yeah.

Wow. So joy should radiate at least appropriately in appropriate ways, even in your preaching, because it's a mark of the Spirit's work in your life. It's a characteristic of Jesus. I would say Jesus, God, the Spirit are the most joyful people in the universe, and we ought to at least embody that to some degree. There's a book there, John. You talked about possibly writing a book, The Joy of God or something like that. Oh, that's good. A couple more things on preaching, and then I want to get to some other topics. What's the role of physical posture?

And just some examples. I mean, the guy that's kind of walking around on stage, you know, versus the guy that's kind of behind the pulpit, hand motions, no hand motions. Like, do you have any, are there any kind of like, what does a rule book say about that kind of stuff? Yeah, I don't know if there is a rule book. Again, I think it needs to be natural. And if you, I actually used to make my students

occasionally do this as an assignment in one of my preaching classes at the college where I would have them, all right, before the next class session, I want you just to watch conversations in the library and the cafeteria on campus and just watch how people talk and then come back to class and just see what you see. And what you see is you see smiles,

you see laughter, you see hand motions, you see body movement, right? You don't see someone being stiff and stoic behind, you know, when they're talking. They move, they laugh, their head moves, their hands move, their feet move, their whole body's into it. It should look that way when we're speaking. You know, my funny story, we've got time for a funny story, but when my son was in fifth grade, the school he went to used to do this speech meet. And so they would memorize like a poem,

a passage of scripture, or a piece of literature, and then they would deliver it. And the school had this whole rubric, and they would evaluate these elementary school kids on their delivery of their speech. The kid that was a close friend of my son's got the highest ranking in the school. It was a superior and all of that. And in the 20 by 20 foot classroom, it was awesome. Well, all those that got excellence or superiors got to deliver it in the gym before all the student body, before parents and all of that.

So they go deliver it. So Ryan, this kid who got a superior best score in the whole school, did a great job. It was smooth. It was polished. It was wonderful. My son goes up to deliver. Well, my son's a true extrovert. He's very expressive, loves drama.

He goes up to deliver his. Ryan's gestures were small, and they were polished, and they worked great in a 20-by-20-foot classroom. But in the gym, you could barely see them. My son goes up on stage as a fifth grader, and he's doing this piece from The Hobbit. Very expressive, very loud, huge vocal variety, hands all over the place, body moving all over the place.

And the audience, you could see them lean in in that moment so the different venues so if you're if you're in a small group bible study 15 people your hands are going all the place you're getting all emotional like that that's going to be kind of awkward right yeah it's too much even even if you're being video and you're you're the picture's being cast on the screen it might be too much you know but in a in a big room where it's you, your movements need to be big enough to fill the room and be seen. I've got a buddy of mine who actually studies a lot of stand-up comedians as kind of a way to learn how to speak. Not to be a comedian, but just their – I think even Mark Driscoll said this. Gosh, I haven't mentioned his name in three years.

Mark Driscoll said this, gosh, I haven't mentioned his name in three years, but that, you know, who else can hold a crowd for two hours just speaking consistently? Yeah. You know, so there's something they're doing that. Anyway, the whole point is he actually goes up and he holds his Greek Bible to keep his hands from flying all around because he apparently what he said is like kind of a it kind of is a law of speaking. You shouldn't be doing all these wild gestures. But I don't know. He even said like Francis Chan does that, and that's not what you're supposed to do. But I'm like – but like you said, it is natural.

I don't know too many people who say, oh, it just seems so awkward. His hands are flying all around or John Piper or whatever. Like they have these kind of signature postures. I mean, even now, my hands are flying. I mean, I kind of do that too. So you would say there is no, that being natural, um, is the most important thing. Not moving your hands, not moving hands, holding something, not holding something. Yeah. Yeah. Being natural and, and having it fit again, the message.

Okay. Okay. Last thing, uh, with, with speaking passion, um, uh, so like a John Piper Even like a Francis Chan Or since I already mentioned him Mark Driscoll He's just a lover hate him kind of guy But you know very passionate speakers But then on the other hand you have someone like a I think like a Rob Bell

Who is just very I wouldn't say he's very passionate He's just very clear And he's very passionate. He's just very clear in, in his, um, he's very, he's very compelling, provocative, and he can hold a crowd for two hours just by kind of talking with little to no passion. Um, what role does passion have in speaking? Yeah, it's a, it's a good observation. It's an important observation. I think, um, passion is really a by-product of caring. So passion boils down to caring about

the message and caring about the people getting the message. And that can show up in different ways in different people, right? So Rob Bell clearly cares about, particularly when he was preaching, he cared about his message and he cared about this content and he cared about the people getting this content. And it showed up differently than it does for someone like Francis Chan or anything like that, right? But it still showed up in him caring about the message and the importance of this message and these people getting the message. It showed up in the way he delivered it. It showed up in the thoughtfulness. It showed up in the phrases. And in fact, Rob Bell was one. He would write his whole thing out, write it out tight, but then he would deliver it in no notes because he wanted to engage with his audience.

He wanted to connect. And he would speak when he was at Maris Hill and Grand Rhymes. He would speak in the round with the audience around him so he could look at everybody and see everybody because he wanted people to get it. He still cared about the message and passengers byproduct of that. Or Francis. Francis is just so dynamic, so expressive. You see it in his face. I mean, his eyes, his face. You see it in his face. I mean, his eyes, his face.

You hear it in the pauses. You hear it. I mean, he cares about this message. And that's the common denominator. That's the common denominator is the caring about the message and wanting people. This is important. This matters. I want you to get this.

That's good. Good. Cool. All right. So theological, let's talk about some theological topics. I mean, you are a theologian. You've taught through almost every book in the New Testament on an in-depth level. When I was teaching at the college, 21 out of 27 New Testament books.

Through preaching, I probably had another four or five of them. So I've got most of them I either preached through or taught through. Do you have any theological hobby horses? Like if someone says, all right, John, you could teach one class, you've got a bunch of students for 45 hours a semester, three hours a week. You could do anything, any topic, any book, any whatever. Is there something or one or two or three that stand out that you would love to tackle? Wow.

And also, why would you want to do that? Yeah. I don't know if I could fill a full semester's course with this, but this is a theological hobby horse to me, and it's the theology of spiritual growth. Okay. Yeah. I don't know that we think about that theologically. So you get popular level stuff on spiritual growth, but you don't always get stuff that's rooted deeply in the New Testament and in biblical theology and all of that. Or I think for the last 50, 60 years in the American church, we have kind of boiled down salvation to forgiveness only.

So you get your sins forgiven, you're justified. We could talk about justification. That's important. That's wonderful. You need to know that it's safe for you to be a work in progress and your sins are forgiven. You've got your ticket to heaven. But we almost never talk about regeneration. We don't talk about sanctification and how those two play together.

What does it mean to be a new creation in Christ? Or when you look at Romans chapter 6, and, you know, that if, you know, what shall we say? That shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be. And, you know, how shall we who died to sin still live in it? What does that mean? Died to sin. Because I don't feel like I'm dead to sin every day.

There's times where I feel quite alive to it. So what does it mean? Paul says we're dead to sin. What does that mean? What does that mean? I struggle. I struggle to Romans 6. Romans 7.

Well, in even Romans 7, there's divergent views on Romans 7, but when you put that in the context of 6, 7, and 8, there's an important principle there, particularly when you get to chapter 8 and the whole theology of what Paul is dealing with there, and then not just theology for theology's sake, but practical theology. Well, then how does that play out? And so how do I live as dead to sin, you know? And then you put that with Colossians chapter 3, and you think, well, okay, he says in Romans 6, we're dead to sin, but Colossians 3, you know, and then you put that with Colossians chapter three and you think, well, okay, he says in Romans six, we're dead to sin, but Colossians three, he says, so you need to put to death the parts of your sinful self. What does that mean? How do those two go together? Am I dead or do I

need to put it to death and figure all that out? The answer is yes, right? Yeah, yeah. There's that tension. And you see that even in Romans six, when you come down a little bit later, he's, you know, just a few verses later he talks about that. So that theology of spiritual growth, theology of new creation, theology of sanctification, but that theology then, how does that play out in everyday life again? I just think that's critical for people to think through and understand and help people really wrestle with that.

So that's kind of a theological hobby horse of mine that's really important. Best book in that area? Or do you know one that really captures it the way you would put it? Books that have influenced me have been, a lot of them have been by Dallas Willard. More on the practical side, but his Spirit of the Disciplines, his Divine Conspiracy, there's some really, really good stuff in there. As far as ones that actually engage with the text and do some good

exegetical biblical theology and then tie that to life, I don't know of a whole lot, sadly. Like a biblical theology of spiritual growth. That's another book I've been... Actually, I've got an outline. I've got some thoughts on that. There's a guy down at Talbot or Biola

that I... Talbot, Biola, they kind of go together. Yeah, yeah. For some reason, when you said that biblical theology is... Maybe it's biblical theology of spiritual formation. It might have just came out. Or maybe I'm just drumming up from my own mind. But something tells me there's somebody out there. Well, it makes sense.

I mean, they've got their whole school of spiritual formation down there. And so they do a lot with it. And they've been influenced by Dallas Willard as well. Right, right, right. All right. So theological themes or doctrines that you've changed your mind on over the years. If there is any. Yeah.

Hopefully. Yeah. Theological themes. Well, you mentioned Romans 7. I was taught one view of Romans 7, and I've changed my specific understanding of Romans 7. Okay, so what was that? Yeah, what was that?

I was taught that Romans 7 describes the normal Christian life. Right, right. I no longer believe that. I don't either, actually. When I referenced it, I was referencing the popular view of it, which isn't true. We're on the same page on that. And the reason for that is just textually,

what's the question Paul is answering? And the question Paul is answering is a question about the Old Testament law, the place of the Torah, and that Torah could not free people from the power of sin. How do we get free from the power of sin? Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ. And then you jump into chapter 8 with the Spirit and all that. And so I've changed my view on Romans chapter 7

that Paul is asking and answering a question about the role of Torah, that the spirit does what the Torah cannot. I think Romans 8 comes after Romans 7 and it's written in direct response to the failure of the law to deliver you from the power of sin and death

and then Romans 8 is the answer to that. Romans 8 is describing the Christian Romans deliver you from the power of sin and death. And then Romans 8 is the answer to that. Romans 8 is describing the Christian. Romans 7 is describing the frustrated Jew trying to find salvation, repentance, and grace through the law. To me, it just seems really clear. Textually, there's a couple, like, maybe statements that whatever, you know, they are hard.

But, like, I think where people run into is they think categories of believer, non-believer, they're not thinking of the category of a religious Jew in the first century because people say, well, wait, if he's not a believer, he wouldn't say the law is holy, just and good. I'm like, name me one first century Jew that wouldn't say that. Right, exactly, yeah. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think we make a category mistake there. So I've changed my position on that.

Calvinism, Arminianism, losing salvation, women in ministry, anything like that, the hot button things, or creation, creation? Yeah,

I'm a moderate Arminian. Okay. And I say that meaning that I, like, you know, I have a strong view of sovereignty. I just don't think sovereignty equals causation. And so I like, you know, I have a strong view of sovereignty. I just don't think sovereignty equals causation. And so I think God controls all things.

He doesn't cause all things. And so I have a very strong view of sovereignty. I think there's a difference between those two. And so I think I might agree with that. Would that make me? I don't know. I keep trying to hang on to my reformed lineage. But every time I think through something, people are like, yeah, that's not really very reformed.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I actually had in my doctoral program, Dwayne Litfin, who at the time was the president of Wheaton College, started poking fun at me for being an Armenian. And finally, I'd had enough, and I said, look, a moderate Armenian and a moderate Calvinist are much closer to each other than they are to the hyper versions of their own camp. Right. So I feel like in some ways I'm closer to a moderate Calvinist than I am to a hyper Arminian. Yeah. So for me, whenever I talk about like my whatever being reformed or Calvinistic, for me, it really comes down to the very narrow understanding of God's agency in salvation.

It's the area that I've done the most study on. But like when it comes to like, so I think, you know, God's agency is prior to and causative of human agency, which most of our Armenian friends say, well, yeah, we just don't, it's the whole predestination thing that I think is where the debate is. For me, for whatever reason, I just haven't found that conversation as interesting as I used to. I think it just gets wrapped up in so many philosophical assumptions that the Bible just doesn't make. And so we start projecting these things on the text. And I think the text is quite diverse and

there's tensions, you know, I mean, the classic example of God ordaining all things and yet prayer moves and changes the heart of God. And I think both are true. And I'm okay with the mystery. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think what you just said there is something that as I have walked with Jesus, the longer I've walked with Jesus, being more comfortable with mystery. Yeah. And being okay to hold my belief with a little open hand and say there's a lot of things

I feel like I know for more certain. And there's a lot of things I feel like I don for more certain and there's a lot of things I feel like I don't know at all that I used to think I know. Which is the way it should be, I feel like. When people aren't, the older they get and the more they study the Bible, when that doesn't happen, it just kind of makes me nervous. Theology should lead to humility

and we should have a little more circumspection about what we know. I'm less willing to argue about things that I maybe was more willing to argue about when I was younger. I'm more willing to hear the other person's view and say, okay, but what about, and just think that through together. And so I, theologically, I'm, I think

I'm a little more humble and gracious than I used to be. I think that's good. There's things that I think are more important to talk about that now it bothers me when I hear what feels like those are 100 year old debates or even 500 year old reformation debates

when it's like as a pastor and a theologian I'm like in an advanced bible college course at a seminary or a bible college I think we should be talking about the theology of some of the stuff you're wrestling with sexuality, because that's the stuff you're going to wrestle with as a pastor for training pastors. You're going to deal with homosexuality and all that or divorce and remarriage. I've been asked the theology that far more than I have. Can you give me the reformed view of justification versus, you know, and it's like so I I just feel like there's theological debates and issues that are more critical pastorally today that we should

be training young up-and-coming Christian leaders in, you know, not that they don't need some familiarity with maybe some of those older theological issues and all that, but man, there's stuff that just needs to be addressed so that pastorally they're prepared to wrestle with. Well, those kind of questions. I think this might be an overstatement, but maybe not. I think anybody graduating a seminary should have written a very long in-depth paper, several papers on divorce and remarriage because it's going to come up over and over again, and sexuality and gender, much more than the kind of bigger theological thing. Have you rest? So I, the, the divorce and remarriage, I have not

done a deep dive into that. I've done enough to know that, oh, it's a little more complicated than kind of a surface reading of the text. Have you, have you, do you, do you have a real clear view on what would be a biblical divorce and remarriage that would be allowed and not, or is it, be a biblical divorce and remarriage that would be allowed and not, or is it, is it just sexual immorality, adultery? Is it, I mean, abusive situations or something, or, I mean. I, I, I think it's hard. And I, here's, so I think, you know, Jesus allows for divorce and remarriage in the case, obviously of, uh, sexual morality.

Okay. First Corinthians seven and the apostle Paul dealing with the issue there. He seems to say, well, look, if you're married to an unbeliever and they leave, don't force them to stay. And then you're released. Which means you can remarry. Well, and that's an important consideration. My understanding is that in the Jewish context, and particularly out of which the New Testament comes, that if a divorce is legitimate, then remarriage is legitimate.

So divorce... Oh, one equals the other. One equals the other. So if the divorce is, quote-unquote, legal, remarriage is legal. Those two necessarily go together in the Jewish context. I may need to do a little more work on that, but the work I've done, that's kind of where I've ended up at. So I think we have those two cases for certain in Scripture. Beyond that, I don't know, you know, and pastorally, I think it's really challenging, particularly when you

have an abusive situation and some of that. I think there needs to be some consideration for the well-being of the people involved, even if that means I think you might need to recuse yourself from the situation for your safety, for your well-being, for your kids or anything like that. One thing I've been thinking about, and maybe this is kind of a no-brainer to people that have done a deep dive study. Maybe there's tons of books that go this direction. But one thing I've been considering is it seems like the divorce commands, the divorce concerns are driven out of a protection for women because they weren't even allowed to divorce in that culture. Or even like the woman at the well, we always think she's some promiscuous person. Well, you've had five husbands and the one you're living with, well, no, she's not doing the divorce. She's, they're trading her in. They're trading her. She's been

used and abused by all these men. And yes, she's technically living in sin, living with the guy, but she's more of a symbol of not promise, bold promiscuity, but like of victimization. She's a victim of male dominance. So if, if the direction that the thing that's fueling Jesus is very radical kind of divorce commands is a concern for women, then I think you could take that direction toward maybe, maybe, and I'm just thinking out loud on a podcast in front of thousands of people. But then could that trajectory maybe include other aspects of a marriage that is damaging towards women? aspects of a marriage that is damaging towards women. No, and I think that's important to realize the heart behind it is this protection of the well-being of the woman, you know, the person that's being divorced. I think there is a protective element there that we have overlooked.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's talk just let's we can final final lap here. Tell us what you do now. So as of June, you've moved outside of full-time pastoral ministry, and now you're in this kind of space that kind of like what I do. I mean, I have this whole organization thing on the side. It's more like, yeah, right in front of me. But, um, yeah, you, you're now kind of a, a, a serial Bible teacher. Is that, is that kind of your brand? Yeah. Tell us what you

do and what, what, in what ways you can maybe help somebody who's looking for help in terms of like coaching or Bible teaching. So let me just back up and tell you how I got to where I'm at a little bit. When I was at, um, the last church I was church I was ministering at, you know, we were baptizing people, bringing a lot of people to faith in Jesus. And so we were baptizing 100, 120 people a year. And so we had all these new believers, but we didn't have a really solid system or mechanism for helping them go from new believer to mature believer. And the various things have been tried over the years. I mean, it's just like didn't work, and you couldn't get people to show up. And aside from people going to small groups, that was about all we had.

And those are important, and they're necessary. But we didn't even have a clear thought process. So we were working on all of that. We were working on this process. In the midst of that, you know, we've got our small group ministry, and I'm looking at our small group leaders, and we have no good training for them. And we would try to do trainings, and you'd get a small percentage of them to show up. And then I'm looking at that and I'm thinking,

well, why is that? And I hear pastors in their frustration say, well, it's complacency. It's a priority issue and all that. I get that. I get the frustration. And in some cases, I think you're right. In other cases, I think, look at our world.

Look at our world and how busy people are. Look at how crazy people's lives are. And people are working weird schedules and, you know, four twelves and then, you know, three twelves and they're, and when they're home, they want to be with their family and their kids are in sports and school functions in the evening and life is nuts. And, and so it's like, man, people, they don't even watch network TV anymore. They watch your TV on Netflix or Hulu or prime or whatever it is, you know? And, um and if they want to fix their plumbing, they get on YouTube and they just YouTube it. And we're used to on-demand entertainment, on-demand resources for what we need. Why don't

we seize that for Jesus and the gospel? So that's sort of the heart behind what I started doing. So it's like, let's try to put together some resources that can help Christians and can help churches grow each other to maturity in their discipleship process or discipleship plan. So I'm creating some online courses. Right now I'm working on four core courses that I think take somebody somewhere. They help move somebody in their understanding of scripture and how to read scripture well and what it means to be a believer and how to grow as a Christian. And so Bible survey, Bible study skills, core beliefs, and the basics of spiritual growth. And so I'm working on those four courses. I got two done, third one, about 60% done. It's all filmed, just being edited. Fourth one, I'm hoping to have done by the end of the year,

Lord willing, it's just taken longer than I thought to get all these done. But those four courses that can be used in churches because they really help you. Here's the big story of the Bible, and here's how all the books fit in. So when you read the Bible, you at least know where you're at. When you listen to a sermon, you know where you're at so you're not lost. Bible study skills helps you read the Bible with greater understanding, so you understand the culture a little bit, and you've got to look at that and what the Bible really is and how to read it well. Core beliefs is if you have the same worldview of Jesus, what do you believe, what do you value, and then basically spiritual growth.

How do we move from new believer to mature believer? And what's our process in that? What's God's part in that? How do you walk by the Spirit? Some of those things. So I'm putting those together. I've got a podcast where I just want to teach the text. There's a lot of good Christian podcasts out there, including this one here.

Is it Bible in Life? Bible in Life. And you just walk through short 15, 20-minute episodes. You walk through passages. And I just want through like short, what, 15, 20 minute episodes? You walk through passages? And I just want to teach the text in livable language. And so just teach the passage of scripture on that. So I've got that. I'm doing some preaching coaching.

Yeah, tell us about that. That's pretty unique. Yeah, well, again, I want to help preachers avoid some of those missteps we talked about. I want to help them really be able to be blue jeans theologians where they're given the Bible in everyday language to people. And so connect the Bible to life and also handle the text well. Bring those two together. So exegete people's lives, exegete the text, bring those together, deliver a message. And so I offer some one-on-one coaching where I'll look over like three of your sermons that you send me. I'll watch those. Then we'll have a 45-minute consultation.

We'll set some goals together. And then maybe four or five weeks later, I'll watch another message of yours. And then we can follow up real quick and say, hey, how does it feel like you're making progress on your goals? And so I've got that on my website. You can check that out as well. And I just think that's incredibly helpful. You know, we rarely ever get one-on-one coaching, you know, and preachers.

And we don't get the kind of feedback that we want, you know, and our people either just leave or they just tell us a good message. But we're looking for specific feedback that says, how can I get better? Or what was unclear? Why was it unclear? Yeah. And so that's something I try to offer on that. It's kind of a one-stop shop for somebody that's just looking to, like,

help improve the discipleship in their church, always help me to become a better preacher help me to provide resources for my church to study you know to to go outside the sermon and learn the bible and a practical way out you know yeah yeah that's really what i'm after is seminar in a box i want to i want to i want to see a a renaissance of a revival of not just bible knowledge for knowledge sake but i want to see a renaissance of a revival of not just Bible knowledge for knowledge sake, but I want to see a revival of engagement with Scripture that's life-based, life-focused, so that you can read the text, you understand the text, you hear what Jesus is saying, and you can live it out.

Or a preacher can study the text and deliver the text in a way that now people can say, man, that connects with my life. That's what I want. I think that if God has given me any gifts at all, I think that's the gift he's given me, and I want to try to help other people do that. So that's what I'm trying to do. We'll see what the Lord does with it. I have no idea where it will go.

That's johnwhittaker.net. Yes, johnwhittaker.net. All right, so check out johnwhittaker.net. I can, as I said in the intro, I can absolutely vouch for John. He was my number one draft pick when I planted the EBC campus up here. And I was looking for teachers and I was like, all right, if I got John Whitaker, then this thing might work. Even though it didn't work. It didn't work.

Whatever. We tried. We tried. We tried. Well, thanks so much, John, for being on the show. And again, yeah, check out his website if you're interested in studying the Bible on an in-depth level in a way that connects with aspects of real life. Thanks, John, for being on the show. Thanks, Preston. Thank you.