Theology in the Raw - 706: #706 - A Conversation with Jackie Hill Perry

Episode Date: November 12, 2018

On episode #705 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Jackie Hill Perry. Jackie Hill-Perry is a writer, speaker, and artist whose work has been featured on The Washington Times, The 700 Club, Desiring God, The Gospel Coalition and other publications. You can follow Jackie on her Twitter. Visit her website. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Questions about faith, sexuality, and gender are some of the most pressing ethical concerns facing the church today. And this is why, as many of you know, I've worked the last few years on producing small group learning experiences. I don't like the phrase small group studies. I've been through small group studies and quite honestly, I haven't found them super compelling. They just seem kind of flat and two-dimensional.

And so I wanted to create a holistic experience where people can be engaged through videos, through testimonies, through really in-depth questions, through accessible and yet thoughtful and in-depth reading material. And I always have a heart for people that want to go deeper. What if somebody reads 40 Days of Purpose, whatever, like, well, I want to go deeper into each little section here. And so we created additional resources that if somebody wants to go deeper, they can go online, read more pastoral papers on various questions addressed in this small group learning

experience. So as again, many of you know, Grace Truth 1.0 and Grace Truth 2.0 are two parts to a learning, a small group learning experience on faith, sexuality, and gender. It covers theology. It covers various Bible passages. It covers relationships, how to, if you're straight, how to talk to LGBT people, how to love LGBT people. It answers some pushbacks to the traditional view of marriage.

It is a one-stop shop, an A to Z small group learning experience for Christians who want to engage this really, really important conversation about faith, sexuality, and gender. So why do I say all that? Because we are offering the small group leaders kit at a discounted rate of 50% off. We sell the leaders kit for $39.95. We are now offering it for the month of November for $20. If you put in the promotional code RAW, R-A-W, then you will get the Small Group Leaders Kit for 50% off. Now, the Small Group Leaders Kit is basically a combination of 1.0 and 2.0. It comes with the books, the DVDs, a Small Group Leaders Guide to help leaders understand how to lead a small group in this conversation. And it will get you started. All you'll need to do if you want to lead

a small group on this very important conversation, then other people in the group will need to purchase their own copies of the book. But that's all they'll need to do. If you have the small group leader's kit, then you as a leader are completely prepared and ready to go to lead a conversation on faith, sexuality, and gender. So again, that's the go to centerforfaith.com, centerforfaith.com. Go to our store link. You can't purchase this anywhere else. It's not on Amazon. Centerforfaith.com. Go to our store link, enter in the promotional code RAW, R-A-W, that's RAW, R-A-W, and you will get an instant 50% off of your purchase of the small group leaders kit for the month of November only. So time is a ticking.

Okay, my guest for today is somebody I've been wanting to talk to for at least two or three years. My goodness, Jackie Hill Perry is an incredibly talented human being who has an amazing testimony. And you'll hear a bit of that testimony during our conversation. I love Jackie Hill Perry for the fact that she says it like it is. She loves the truth. She loves the gospel. She loves Jesus. And she's just not at all ashamed of the gospel, as Paul says, no Christian should be in Romans 1.16. And so, Jackie Hill Perry is a hip hop artist. She is a spoken word poet. She's a teacher. She's a preacher. She is incredibly thoughtful. And she just released her new book, Gay Girl, Good God.

That's Gay Girl, Good God, put out by B&H Press. And I am so excited to have this conversation. You're going to really enjoy it. Please welcome to the show, Jackie Hill Perry. All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am very, very excited to talk to Jackie Hill Perry. Jackie, thanks so much for being on the show. And if you are listening on the podcast, then you don't see where Jackie is at, but she is actually in her nanny's car recording this so her two kids

who are asleep don't wake up so thanks for being willing to go to the car and do this podcast you gotta do some strange things to keep the nap going that is gold a six month year old and a three year old who are actually

asleep you don't mess with those kids no because they if they wake up then they act crazy and then they act crazy towards me and then i act crazy with them so awesome yeah why don't we just uh let's start give it a little bit of background of who you are and uh i mean you gave you've had quite the journey and i think a lot of people listening probably know a bit of it but for for those who don't, explain to us who Jackie Hill Perry is. Yeah, I'm a black girl that was raised in St. Louis, a single parent home. My mother loved me well. My dad loved me sometimes.

Grew up, kind of had, you know, some things that I noticed early had uh what i think would be gender confusion same-sex attraction was molested six or seven guy introduced to pornography around seven as well um so just became way too way too sexually aware way too early um i kind of went to church not my mother wasn't a believer but she had me go to church with her her her what was what would she be called sister-in-law who was my aunt who was a believer and so i went to church every week for like you know 10 years straight and that's when i heard about jesus and the gospel but none of it was attractive it was just kind of like okay that's cool yeah i love god i think i love god because i i was baptized at five so it was kind that. So that's that's my life got saved.

Now I do poetry, teach, write music and mother two children with a husband whose name is Preston as well. I know. I just, you know, every now and then I'll I'm not on Twitter too much, but sometimes I'll pop on your account. You'll be talking about Preston this, Preston that. I'm like, I'm getting a shout out. I'm getting a shout out from Jackie Hill Perry that I find. And Preston is a really rare name. You don't see a lot of Prestons a lot. No, most of them are white too. Show Liz.

But you know, you know, black people, sometimes they had to give their children particular names so that they would get a job. That's what that was. Really? Yeah. That's a common thing is that you don't want the resume to be too ethnic uh because you don't want them to be turned

away wow gosh we can go down that uh yeah i got so many questions about that but let's uh yeah so so you just came out with the book gay girl good god and uh i have not read it yet i want to confess it's it's on its way um and i'm super excited to read it but i can see it's it's it seems to be really killing it in terms of like making some waves and reaching some people are you happy with how it's been launched and everything yeah i think i think it it seems to be doing good whatever good is um i i think um I've just been encouraged by people actually interacting with the book. Because in Christendom, you have so many books being released all of the time. Even behind you, you've probably read 60% of those. And so I think to

know that you've chosen, someone has chosen my books over all of the other books to read with, to, to, to, to interact with over the course of a week, I think it's a blessing. Well, tell us, tell us a bit about, I mean, you kind of breezed over pretty quickly. What, what was your, I mean, you were, uh, engaging in same sex. I mean, you would even say promiscuity, sexuality in a really destructive way found jesus uh what was that whole experience like i mean um yeah yeah so i mean i so i noticed i was i felt same-sex attracted early four five six and that was before the molestation before i even noticed uh you know that my father was inconsistent so i wouldn't even put my attractions on my trauma okay um but it was

high school and i was like you know what i'm just kind of tired of acting like this isn't here um because it's becoming harder to resist it than it is to actually just yeah i was like i'm tired of faking and so i i got into a relationship with a girl girl when I was a senior in high school. And that's when it felt like, can you hear me? I can hear you. That's when it felt like, man, why haven't I been doing this a long time ago? You know what I'm saying? And so I just was doing that.

I was with her maybe seven days because I was 17 and fickle, you know, gay or straight. When you're a child, you don't know how to be with each other for a long time. So after that relationship was when I got into another relationship with a woman and i transitioned into being a stud which in the black lesbian community is the woman who kind of presents a hyper masculine self um in many ways and so i was i was just that gay pride parades great gay club just gayness gay community uh friends um language even um until october 2018 is when i was just in my room doing something relevant like watching mtv not 2018 and not not no no that's this year 2008 she just she just got saved i just just got saved and got a book deal immediately. No, 2008, I was 19. And I just, I had this interaction with God that was random, that didn't make any sense. It was kind of like a Damascus moment where I felt God speak to my heart in such a way

where I just saw that all of my sin, lesbianism, and everything else was wrong and that it deserved death. But Jesus was the only proper alternative for me to turn to and believe in. and everything else was wrong and that it deserved death. But Jesus was the only proper alternative for me to turn to and believe in. And so from that day forward, I was a Christian and didn't know that that's what Christianity was. I just was believing that he was right and true and that my sin was worthless. Didn't know that was repentance and faith, but it was. So wait, it wasn't a Christian that shared the gospel with you or reached out to you it's really just god breaking into your life yeah because christians the interactions i had with christians at that time they didn't

know what to do with me i don't think they know what to say to me it was kind of like i felt like even when they talked to me there was always this squinting thing where they were trying to figure me out, I guess, like, how do I talk to this gay girl? But I think what God used to remind me of the gospel is those years in Sunday school. Because what I remembered was John 3.16. I remembered that for God so loved the world that he gave his son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That was all I needed. I didn't need to know about atonement and propitiation and justification. I just needed to know Jesus loved and died for people like me so that we could live. Before you came to Christ, what was your perception of the church?

Was it because you were identified as lesbian? Did you think that Christians just hate gay people? Did you not have any deep animosity towards the church or what was your perspective i didn't have animosity but i didn't have trust either okay um because it it seemed as if that was the sin that just was hated the most um it that's it but it also felt felt Christianity felt. I don't think the word is intangible, but it didn't feel like something I could be because I felt like Christians were just people that just said no to a whole bunch of stuff. And I like saying yes. It's just like I don't want to listen to Christian music all day. I don't want to not curse people out. I don't want to have to wear dresses down to my ankles. I don't want to not curse people out.

I don't want to have to wear dresses down to my ankles. I didn't know that these people were actually in love with God and that it was a spiritual work that had happened and took a place in their hearts where they were able to then choose God. I just thought they just said the sin prayer and they were just better than everybody. So how did you reconcile your faith with your sexuality, primarily early on? I mean, it seems like your faith was identified as leaving your sexuality behind would that be an accurate statement like it was a pretty black and white clean cut the way in which i walked out sexuality yes okay yeah because i think to leave sexuality behind i don't know if that's possible right yeah yeah yeah okay yeah broken manifestations maybe of sexuality for sure um yeah did you did you ever work through uh the theology of sexuality to figure out are these two compatible is there because even at that point i mean 2008 more like

2011 12 13 more there's more books and stuff from an affirming perspective. We have people that are using the Bible to justify same-sex marriage. Like, did you ever go on that journey to see, is there, is there space for same-sex marriage or no? I didn't because I was convinced that the Bible was accurate in what it had to say about sexuality, even in sin, even when I was actively an unbeliever, I never tried to convince myself that what first Corinthians six, nine, and 10 was saying was not right. Or Romans one, I just really believed that that was right. And I would tell my girlfriends, you know, the Bible actually has things that it like God has issue with this. And they were like, so why are you gay? I was like, because I want to be.

It isn't an issue of theology. It's just an issue of my will. I don't want to do what he wants me to do. And so, no, I never did that. What do you think the church, because I know you've engaged this conversation the last several years, I think, on a pretty public level. What do you think the church really gets wrong, engaged this conversation you know last several years i think on a on a pretty public level what do you think that the what do you think the church really gets wrong just in terms of sexuality as a

whole like where where's the where's the gaps where's the missing you know logic where have we not allowed god to speak into when we think about this you know all the debates about sexuality and one thing i've been studying a lot of is the concept or what I think is a theory, but the concept of orientation, I think the way we talk about people and personhood is just, we anchor it way too much in, into who people like are attracted to what to me it's made heterosexuality as if it's the holiest thing as that, as if, if you're a heterosexual,

that means you're closer to god than someone who is saying sex attracted might be when it's like first of all why are we identifying ourselves by who we're attracted to anyway why is that why are we centering our personhood around that instead of our personhood in the fact that we're image bearers of a living god and so i think that's affected how we see temptation i think that's affected how we see temptation. I think that's affected how we see sanctification. I think that's affected the way we present the gospel. Because people, it's just like, I have conversations with people all the time. It's like, I want to minister to my gay friend. It's like, what is their name? What do they like to do? Why is that the way you choose to identify them? It's just that they're

gay and not that they're a person to be loved. And it's so much more to them than who they like. Like we are too complicated to just center our entire beings around this one aspect of our lives. And so I think we, I think orientation has affected the church and the way we view sexuality in a major way. It is a very modern way of looking at human nature, a very modern and very Western too, way of looking at the human person to elevate. And I know we blame everything on the sexual revolution, but it kind of, I don't know.

I think there's a lot there in the wake of the sexual revolution. We have way over-sexualized our human experience to where people now, it's like if they're not, if they think they can't get married and have lots of great sex, they like why just i can't flourish like i can't exist like that as a human it's like come on man like that that yeah i mean again we're idolizing something a good gift that god's created but tremendously idolizing it so that when we don't get it we feel like you know like we're we can't flourish as a human yeah yeah we've lifted it way too high way too high it's it's an aspect it's not the whole thing of what it means to be human because to me i think sam albury speaks to

this a lot but better than i would but i think it's there's something to be said about our savior being a single man i know right is he was he less than human because of it? I know, right? He was fully human and fully whole, even while he did not or was not able to explore himself sexually. He would not be hired on in most churches because he's single. He certainly wouldn't be allowed to do any marriage counseling. Or Paul. Or Paul, yeah. So you, I haven't followed, I just, I don't pay attention too much to what's going on out there, but I do know enough that you have poked the bear quite a few times in this conversation. You think so?

Which I like. In what way? So here's where – and when people found out I was going to have you on, the main question that people said – I want to know like does she endorse reparative therapy like does she think that people should go get therapy to become straight because some people um have taken what you've said about conversion i think and said and map that on more of a conversion therapy so which is interesting to me not to cut you off it's interesting to me because it's one have i ever affirmed it have i ever said it um so have you not i mean i i literally don't even know and i don't even i just want i've never affirmed conversion therapy nor have i ever been uh

someone who has said that believers or gay people should come to the Lord to be straight. I've pushed so much to say to the church, God is not calling gay people to be straight. He's calling gay people to be holy because heterosexuality is not a fruit of the spirit. Self-control is. In first Corinthians six, nine through 11, he does say, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were justified, and you were sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. He doesn't say he doesn't say that they will not struggle, that they will not be tempted. He says that they've been cleansed. They've been made right with God, that they will be continue to be made holy.

So what God has done is that he has changed someone's nature and empowered them to live out a life that loves him and sees their sexuality in the place that it should be seen. And so for me, am I an advocate or am I affirming of it? No. But I can see why people would assume it in some ways, because I think the way people introduce me can sometimes make it seem that way. I think the way people introduce me can sometimes make it seem that way. They'll say ex-gay or, you know, ex-lesbian, where it can sound as if, oh, she's saying that she's not gay anymore. And it's just like, there we go with the orientation thing. No, I'm a human being. And as a human being, am I tempted?

Absolutely. Women are still beautiful. I am still inclined to want to enjoy them in ways that is not holy and not godly. But at the same time, God has given me a greater affection for him. And so even when these temptations well up, I choose him. And I think that's what Christianity is. It's not conversion therapy. It's just conversion. I mean, it's conversion. But that word has been hijacked. No, and I can – so you're saying it's – when you use language of just what a radical conversion to Jesus is, people just kind of assume that – well, they just use that language and think you're kind of endorsing through the back door maybe conversion therapy.

Okay. Yes. And honestly, I don't even – my – I'm just a big fan of people being interpreted for what they're actually saying. I don't even – I'm not even like, oh, everybody needs to line up on this or that. And I've got friends on all across the map on this conversation. What I don't like is that we can't have a conversation and we misrepresent other people. And gosh, I mean I – yeah, I've been very misrepresented on so many levels. So I know what that feels like but uh yeah what uh oh shoot there's something i was gonna say um

well let's transition to your music you are a poet yeah a uh a hip-hop artist spoken word poet right yes so is that are you like do you tour all the time is this like a major part of your life is it a kind of a site used to be yeah used to be for the first eight years of my ministry was primarily poetry um it was this last probably year and a half two years where i start to drift into teaching because that's my greater passion teaching to teach the scriptures yeah like even my poetry was me artistically teaching scripture and so let me just actually open up a real bible um and and do that and so that's kind of what i do primarily how do you what's your avenue for

teaching what do you do uh conferences people call me and Hey, can you teach on this text? I'm like, sure. That's kind of what it is. When I was at my old church, I just moved to Atlanta recently, but I was, when I was at my old church, I was one of the women's leaders. So I tried to do a, use a lot of my teaching gifts locally with women that I was discipling or with the other women I was leading. So you're in Atlanta now, what brought about the move to Atlanta? other one that was leading. So you're in Atlanta now. What brought about the move to Atlanta? There's grass. Um, cause I was in Chicago and Chicago is, is the grass lots are like, you know, kind of like a buzz cut type of thing. And so we wanted grass and we wanted a home with space. And then our families are converging here randomly. So my mother moved here from St. Louis in May before I gave birth. birth yeah my brother's moving

here so we wanted to i just want to live out the rest of my days uh near my family especially my mom not knowing how much time i might have with her did you say preston's family is from atlanta as well or they're from chicago oh they're oh that's the presence from chicago i'm from st louis we met in la and we're all moving here now wow it's so weird for me to say preston by the way it's just so nice you feel like you're talking about yourself yeah i just talked about myself now is he a hip-hop artist as well or spoken word what does he do he's a poet yeah he's a poet and an apologist um so he's he's on a tour right now doing poetry. And then on the side, he talks about all things apologetics. Really?

So we have fun. We both read Heresy all together at night. And then we talk about it. What are your – That's our thing. So do you enjoy apologetics as well? Is that – or what would be – I'm intrigued by it.

Because I think even my discussion on sexuality is kind of like a sexual apologetics in many ways when it comes to him and other religions. I'm intrigued, but it's just a lot of information. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, 5% Nation, Nation of Islam. It's just too much. And so I'll leave that to him. Okay. So you'd rather just teach directly, just teach the text directly without getting into some big debate or i don't like arguing arguing and that's not but that's yeah i'm not a fan it's like oh you don't believe it cool yeah have fun with that yeah but we can dialogue if someone is

willing to dialogue about faith and dialogue about the differences and dialogue about what we both see or think of God. I'm always open for a conversation or debate. Absolutely not. Do you get a lot of criticism for stuff you've said on sexuality? I mean, I kind of alluded to it earlier a little bit. I mean, yeah. I'm sure I do. I mean, I see one, I don't, I don't allow myself to even go into the forums where I would see all of the criticism in its highest form. So Facebook comments, YouTube comments, even Amazon reviews. I don't pay too much attention to that. Don't read Amazon reviews.

Yeah, do not read Amazon reviews. Yeah, no. Yeah, I learned that. But there is criticism, and I think I saw it in its intensity when went to harvard and saw the reaction to my coming oh yeah what was that all about that was a couple a couple years ago a year ago no that was probably 10 months ago so what was that all about yeah so i guess so i was invited to teach uh to the christian organization on campus maybe 190 maybe 90 to 100 students and then when i guess the lbgt plus uh groups on campus found out that i was coming

they attributed that to hatred and bigotry and so it began like they kind of rounded up some people to do a protest and so it became an open uh what do they call it, a freedom of speech forum where they open it to all the students on the campus so that the protesters could come and protest freely. And so that was just kind of the thing. Did they just sit there and bang cymbals and get on loudspeakers or did they actually engage in the conversation? so that it was about 60 to 70 protesters and they came um dressed in rainbows rainbow you know letting us all know who they were and stuff like that and then some of them had flags about you know me being a bigot and stuff like that and so while i told my story they were really quiet um really respectful it was when i started to preach um i think it's something before, but it's when Jesus is in the garden and he's praying for God to let the cup pass for him. But he says, you know, not my will,

but your will be done and how Jesus denied himself so that he could live out the will of God. And so how much more do we, how much more should we lay aside our own rights to please God according to his will and his will being that, you know, we should not be sexually immoral. That's the will of God. That's what it says. And so it was when I started to teach that text that the angst rose up in the room. So there were comments, there was scoffing, there was crying, there was cursing me out, stuff like that. But that's, that's expected. You don't seem shaken up by it at all. Was it like,

was it hard to go through or not? Not really. It was just tense. It was, it was, it was, it was tense to be, it felt like one, I felt like I identified with Jesus and Paul a lot more than I would have. Because they did that all the time. Jesus and Paul were always in synagogues saying that Jesus is the way to be made right before God and not the law. But it also gave me a real clear picture of how those who are unbelievers, how

they interact with the gospel call to repentance and faith, that it really is a foolish thing, that it really is repulsive when you can't see the good news as being good news. And so I felt like the protesters were there because they felt like I was protesting or I was bringing some type of information to them that was harmful. I saw it as you're here under the sovereign hand of God so that you could hear the gospel and hear the gospel presented in a way that maybe you haven't heard it. Maybe all you have heard is people say, all of y'all are going to hell. Stop being gay. Be straight. That's not

my aim at all. My aim is not. God is saying, whatever is in your way from knowing him and loving him, turn from that so you can be one with the one that you were made for. And so I think my angle is different. Sorry. Somebody's robbing a car what are they you got it you got it um now i'm so curious because i've been following a lot of these conversations on uh i can still hear you uh on college campuses and especially in the last two years there's just such a any idea that students find disagreeable they say it's harmful you know and then they yes and safe spaces safe spaces and if words cause violence then we can use physical violence to prevent you from giving verbal

violence you know it's just it's it's so it's so dangerous for so many reasons. There's a great book that just came out on this topic called The Coddling of the American Mind and how – Oh, I like it. Oh, you got to read it. You got to read it. The Coddling of the American Mind, How Good Intentions Are Hurting Our – whatever. There was a distinct shift in 2013, 2014, where there was this massive explosion of labeling everything harmful that's really just disagreeable. Because, I mean, when you talk about the content of your speech, you're basically, I mean, summarizing the most basic aspect of a Christian sexual ethic held by over a billion people on the planet. of a Christian sexual ethic held by over a billion people on the planet. Well, no, if you add Muslims and Orthodox Jews, I mean, any monotheist is going to say sex outside a male-female marriage is sin.

And if you want to embrace this deity, this religion, then that comes with it. Kind of like you want to be a Jew, you stop eating shrimp. You want to be a Muslim, you observe Ramadan. If you want to be a Christian, you observe a Christian sexual ethic, which is held globally. You know, like if that, hearing that idea you think is harmful you're not you can't function in the society if that i mean i think it really is just a it's not only an intellectual cop-out like

refusing to actually deal with it but it actually it ended up when you label ideas you disagree with as harmful that actually it it produced that will end up producing more harm because you're not going to be able to function in life. You can't be around anybody that disagrees with you. It's so dangerous. And you hinder your growth as a human being. But I think it's just a convenient way to do what Romans 1 has said we all do, which is to suppress the truth by our own unrighteousness is that if it, if that, if your truth is not lined up with my truth and your truth is bad and it's

like, if that's the way, if that's the way we're going to go throughout this life, um, that we're not gonna, we're not going to see Jesus. Cause, cause he, he said, he said some hard stuff. Jesus was, I think Jesus was harder than most of us are willing to be for him to go into these spaces and call these people broods of vipers for him to say, you are a child of the devil, your father. I would be terrified to go on anybody's campus and say, yeah, you're a child of the devil. I would be, I would be protesting so bad. You know what I'm saying?

But that's, that was the son of God saying these things. And so is that harmful? Yeah. It's harmful to my idols. Yeah, totally. Oh my gosh. Was there any, did you see any fruit come out of that conversation? Anybody that was like, kind of like, Oh, I was expecting something worse and now I want to listen to you more. Well, I opened it up to say, Hey, I'll, and i'm at this time i was pregnant i was like six months pregnant so i was exhausted but i said uh i can stay an extra hour two hours hours for anyone who

wants to dialogue with me and the only people that came up to me were believers and so to me it was like i don't think you for them specifically i don't think they wanted to engage in the conversation i think they just wanted to to state disagreement, but not engage on how we can figure this out and flesh out the disagreement. So it is, was there immediate fruit? There might be. I really believe that God is, is able to do to them and to everyone else at the same way he did to Saul is to convert them, uh, by the same means that they are against. I think that's what he, he's good at that. That's so, I mean, and I get all that. I appreciate your perspective. It's, it is, to me, it's just so frustrating when, and I've had this happen to me when I speak on the

topic too. I've had people come up during a Q and A after I give a long talk, then I'll have like, this just happened a few weeks ago. Then during the Q and A, some guy comes up and he doesn't go to the school I spoke at. He didn't hear my talk, but he comes with a question. He didn't like my answer. And then he kind of like, you know, and I'm kind of pushing back very graciously, but like, Hey, explain this or whatever. And he didn't want anything to do. It walks out. I'm like, you're not, you're not actually wanting to engage in a conversation.

You're just wanting to either shut me down or whatever. And I'm like, I want to, I want to have an actual conversation. Like I'm willing to learn from you. Maybe there's something you would say that I want to listen to. And it's just so frustrating. People don't actually want to have a conversation. And I've always wondered if there's a fear there. And this is an assumption.

But if what I am saying is true, then that means you're accountable to believing it. That means that if what I'm saying is true, then that means you have to repent and relinquish all of your idols, whatever, whether that's sexuality, pornography, whatever the case may be, and fling yourself onto the mercies of Jesus Christ. No sinner in human history wants to do that apart from the grace and mercy and kindness of God. And so why would you want to engage with me and just so happen to find out that you're wrong? So for you, it's kind of like almost like, of course, they would respond like that because they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. Yeah, I don't. There's no way I would ever go. Even Christian campuses, I expect pushback.

Rosario Butterfield went to Wheaton and got protested. Wheaton. And so for me, it's like if the Bible is true, then what I'm talking about sounds dumb. Yeah. If it's true. Unless the way I'm talking about it isn't the way Jesus was talking about it. And the world should welcome me with open arms. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, in my experience in this conversation, it's the Christian, usually straight, mostly white, under 30 year old affirming Christians who are the most hostile hostile towards me. My non-Christian gay friends are the most hostile, hostile towards me. My non-Christian gay friends are like, dude, love what you're doing. You're like helping the church love gay people better.

It's great. You know, of course you believe what you do. You're a Christian. Like to them, it's not, but it's, and even,

yeah, yeah. There's just, there's so much lack of understanding, misrepresenting and just a desire to tarnish. I think, because people don't want to be faced with, what if I'm wrong? What if I need a challenge and leave something behind? Yeah, that's a terrifying thing. Yeah.

So do you speak on this topic quite a bit? I mean, from your book and everything? Or is it? The book, I think I speak on it maybe monthly but not often but i'm sure in the coming months yeah uh that will probably be what i speak on the most do you enjoy it is it a topic you like to engage in or you do it because you feel like god's giving you a voice for it i enjoy it because i think this is what god is kind of leading me to do and wants me to do. And I think there's so, there's still so much misunderstanding about it all.

Like there's so much confusion. And I think Christians have just overcomplicated it in so many ways. This is like, someone came up to me two weeks ago. I was like, yeah, so how do I minister to, um, my gay uncle? They're going to be over our house at Thanksgiving. I was like, you know what? I don't think I've ever had or heard someone ask that question about their drunken uncle. People don't say my drunk uncle is going to be there for Christmas. I really don't, I don't know how to talk to him. What should I do?

What you do is you love the man and you talk to the man. And then when things come up or situations arise where you can address his sin and point them to Jesus, you do it, but you don't overcomplicate it. You recognize that this sin is who he is and what he does, but he needs hope and he needs grace. There isn't this methodology that you have in embracing all of your other family members that are sinful. Yet when it comes to same-sex attraction, that's just the one thing that we feel as if we are ill-equipped to handle. I don't think that's the case. I've heard countless stories of people coming to Christ who are gay or lesbian.

And the turning point for them in many cases was I was treated like a normal person by the church. Like I came over to the house for dinner. I came over to the house for dinner. I thought that they were going to like mock me and beat me and whatever. I was scared to death to go to their house. I came in. They asked me honest questions. They didn't interrogate me.

They gave me food. We gave hugs. And they left. And my whole worldview was like turned upside down because I was treated like a human being. My whole worldview was like turned upside down because I was treated like a human being. Because the expectation is that you're going to just bring out Romans and Leviticus and all of this over meatloaf. And it's like, is that how you came to Christ? Is that every time you went out to eat with somebody, it's like, so you know you're a sinner, right?

No, it doesn't work like that. Just be a human and be normal. And the gospel comes up it comes up that's awesome so good well jackie i'm gonna wrap things up i'm actually uh it looks like my uh zoom chat thing is counting down is about to close out for some reason uh well look at that i don't know why that is but anyway i want to respect your time too. I know you got kids to look after, but thanks so much for being on the show. I so appreciate the, oddly enough, the clarity of your voice, despite some people misinterpreting something you said. To me, I've never, it's never been unclear to me. And just, I love how you are so centered on the gospel and everything else is under the shadow of the gospel of Christ I think we would uh we wouldn't over complicate

so many topics if we kept it that simple so thank you so much for that clarity and that passion so so good thank you Mr. Sprinkle call me Preston call me Preston I got you take care