Theology in the Raw - 708: #708 - A Conversation with Sean McDowell

Episode Date: November 26, 2018

On episode #708 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Sean McDowell. Sean is the author, co-author or editor of over 18 books, he is an associate professor in the Christian Apologetics program at Biola University, he is the Resident Scholar for Summit California. He graduated summa cum laude from Talbot School of Theology with a master’s degree in theology and another in philosophy. He earned a Ph.D. in Apologetics and Worldview Studies in 2014 from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Follow the dialogue with Sean as he blogs regularly at seanmcdowell.org. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today, my good friend, Sean McDowell. If you don't know who Sean McDowell is, then you need to Google Sean McDowell and check him out. He's an awesome dude. He's such a great thinker. He is a scholar. He's a fantastic teacher.

He's a professor at Biola University. He's also a high school teacher. He's also a speaker, a national speaker who travels around, speaks to youth groups, conferences, seminars, colleges. I mean, the guy just does it all. He's just a cool dude, super clear, super compelling, super thoughtful. We talk about a couple different major topics. One, the one topic we camped on for a while at the beginning was, uh, Gen Z, Generation Z, uh, the people who are roughly elementary school age to high school or college age, the, the generation that comes after millennials. And he is just an absolute expert

in understanding, uh, that generation. And we had a great time talking about social media, uh, different challenges that Gen Z is facing. We also talked quite a bit about sexuality and various challenges there. So you're really going to enjoy this episode. He's just such a clear speaker. I was just so impressed with how clear and compelling he is and just everything that comes out of his mouth. So we're going to talk to Sean McDowell in just a second. I also wanted to remind you that November, during the month of November, we're running a special 50% off sale of Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0, specifically the Leaders Kit that combines both Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0, the DVDs, the books, a leader's guide. This is a one-stop shop for a small group leaders experience in the conversation about faith,

sexuality, and gender. If you want to lead a small group and talk about faith, sexuality, and gender, then I encourage you to check out the small group leaders kit on Grace Truth 1.0 and 2.0. You have to go to the website centerforfaith.com, go to the store link, punch in the code RAW, Raw, R-A-W, that's Raw, R-A-W, to take advantage of our November only 50% off of the retail price on that product. Again, that's centerforfaith.com. Go to our store link, punch in Raw, R-A-W, I keep messing up on that, R-A-W, Raw, and you will get that product at 50% off for the month of November, the month of November only. All right, folks, let's get to know Sean McDowell. We are live. I am here. Thank you so much for joining us on Theology in the Raw. I am here with my friend, Sean McDowell.

Sean is Skyping in or Zooming in the Zoom chat. That's what we use now. You just look very sunny there. Like my room, I'm very dark and dreary. It's cold here in Idaho. Is it like 80 degrees there in LA? It was 80 yesterday, actually. I just added a light to balance out the window on my left over here, but it's been warm, like mid seventies. It's been nice. Killing me. So there's two types of people in the world, those who need seasons and those who would prefer beautiful weather every day. I'm the latter.

I don't mind seasons too much, but why not have it sunny and 80 degrees every single day of the year? I would, I would, yeah, I'm totally down with that. You know what? I miss it about three days of the year. I'm like, I wish we had seasons. The other 360, whatever. I'm like, it's nice to be at 70 degrees.

You can always visit somewhere a season and then go back and get a tan on the beach. Yeah. I'm actually – you know what's funny? I'm going to be in L.A. tomorrow. Tomorrow? Yeah. So, yeah. Well, it's just like – it's an in-and-out trip with my daughter.

It's just like a quick – we're going to Knott's Berry Farm coming back. So I won't be able to hang out with you, but I will be in your sunny – I just checked the weather. I'm like, dude, it's going to be like 84 tomorrow. I'm so excited. All right, Sean McDowell, tell us who you are for those people out there who may not know who Sean McDowell is. Sure. My main gig is I teach theology and really apologetics at Biola University. I teach high school part-time, three mornings a week at a local Christian school because my heartbeat is really the next generation. I'm a husband to my wife.

Let's see, coming up on 19 years, I got three kids. Wow. I didn't know you teach high school and you teach college. How do you fit all that in? Well, it's three mornings a week. I'm done at like 10. It's small classes. It's discussion-based.

It's honor classes. It's discussion-based. It's honor students. So I might have six to 12 students and we'll digest typically college level books on apologetics, theology. We've done Love Thy Body by Nancy Peercy. And we just talk about it. And these are motivated students. So I love working with high school students. So could I, I mean, I don't know how personal I want to get you. I assume you're probably not doing it because you necessarily need the money, but you are wanting to just stay involved in college or high school students. Is that, I mean. Well, I do it for a few reasons. Definitely not the money.

High school does not pay much private school part time. I wasn't going to ask for your, yeah, how much you get paid. I'm sure it's not much. I also work at Starbucks and I work. I do it mainly because number one, I just enjoy it. I've always probably picked it up from my dad. Just this passion for the next generation. I enjoy working with high school students,

freshmen and seniors where they're at in life. It also keeps me kind of, my son's a freshman high school, so I might have him in class in the next year or two. So it keeps me plugged in at the school where my kids go. It also kind of gives me a sense, like I have a laboratory of what kids are thinking and what's going through their mind. And I just ask them questions all the time to try to understand this generation. And then last, it also gives me, I guess you could say street cred. When I talk to parents and I talk to youth pastors and I talk to, you know, Christian school teachers, I'm like,

hey, I'm not just an Ivy tower prof. I'm really trying to do this as well with this generation. So let's go there. I mean, you've been in the youth world for quite, I mean, 20 plus years in the ministry of youth on some level. What are some, if I can say, distinctive challenges or features of the Gen Z, the sort of 13 to eight or 13 to 22 or whatever it is, versus millennials? Because I think sometimes when people say millennial, they just think

all younger people under 35. And it's like, well, wait a minute, I think there are some really unique challenges with Gen Z or the iGen that you're involved with right now. Yeah. So essentially, people split up generations a little bit. There's no hard cut line, but roughly those who are probably elementary school through high school, maybe even into college right now would be Gen Zers. The end of college and above would be millennials. So elementary to college students probably would be Generation Z. And I think there's a number of things that set this generation apart. They are not millennials 2.0 on a number of levels. One of the reasons is millennials were digital immigrants and Gen Z are digital natives. iPad or a tablet or a phone before they can even speak. And I think we're just coming to grips with what this means for relationships, what this means for attention span, what it means for the formation

of the brain. So this is truly a digital generation in every sense of the term. So one way I put it is older generations, like I'm Gen Xer. I learned how to communicate online. Gen Zers learn how to communicate offline. Like their default is online communication and talking to people. It's kind of like, you know, when we're trying to figure out social media or our parents, you know, my mom's trying to figure out what is Facebook. Like sometimes Gen Z is like that with real people.

I would agree, man. parents, you know, my mom's trying to figure out what is Facebook. It's like, sometimes Gen Z is like that with real people. You're saying for advice. I think, I think I would agree, man. It's so natural and intuitive and woven into every aspect of their life that they can't imagine world without us. So when I was growing up, the coming of age time was like, get your license freedom. This generation is like, I can take it. I would much rather give up my license than I would my cell phone. It's an extension of who I am. And that's why

we're seeing the way it affects not only them emotionally, but also intellectually. So emotionally, they're pressing, it's really interesting. There is skyrocketing depression and loneliness and attempts at suicide amongst Gen Z, it hits girls even harder than guys. And I think technology and all the elements this creates is at the heart of that. It also shapes the way that they think. So think about it this way. I remember, I mean, when I was a kid, if we wanted a toy, we'd go to the Sears robox which recently you know shut down and i'd have like five options of toys and it'd wait four to six weeks to come to me now they can have what they want when they want it where they want it however they want it delivered to them on a drone

through amazon and it kind of teaches this generation that rather than having to conform my life to an external reality, I can conform reality to my wants and my desires. That's how I think it shapes the way they often think. So like the personal autonomy, personal, just where the whole world kind of revolves around you, which is a struggle for everybody, especially, I guess, younger people. It's times 10 with a generation that's raised where the only world they know is if I want something, I swipe the card, I punch it online, I get it immediately. Are you saying that sociologically that creates this whole other perspective on life that kind of influences everything?

I think that's the case. Here's another example. I remember these commercials. You probably remember these like Coke versus Pepsi, right? They do a case sample in the store and everyone's like wow pepsi's better i had no idea well think about the assumption of that if you want a soda there's you can get a root beer you can get a dr pepper but there's really two options well now you get a soda making machine have the size you want the fizz you want the flavor you want when and where you want, the fizz you want, the flavor you want, when and where you want it tailored just for you. Starbucks has 87,000 different drink options. Really? You don't have to listen. I mean,

I remember listening to Casey Kasem's Top 40 Radio. Now with Spotify and with Amazon Music, you have what song you want, when you want it, where you want it. I'm not blaming this generation. That's not my point. I'm saying they're being raised in an era in which everything around them just tells them, I can fit my music taste. I can fit my desires and wants. However, I like it. I can tailor my own reality. And this shapes the way they think and shapes the way they approach truth. So just think it out loud. So when something in life doesn't go their way, could it be that they lack the resilience to kind of persevere through that, to have something they want and not get it because they're so used to getting whatever they want? Now that sounds maybe over the top.

I don't want to sound like some old bogey, whatever. But like, and again, I like what you said. It's not really their fault. This is the world they're growing up in. And these are the inevitable sociological and psychological effects of this kind of world where the majority of their desires can be met immediately. So when something's not met, I can imagine, my guess is, it's much more harder for them to deal with that. So let me take a step back and frame this way that might be helpful. When I speak on Generation Z to audiences, I'll say to people, and typically this is millennials and up, I'll say,

give me individual words that describe how you would characterize this generation. People shout out, lazy, entitled, selfish. No, like eight to one negative. And then i point out positive things and then i'll point out negative things and then i'll ask them i'll say what kind of words did you use to describe this generation was it positive or was it negative because if you use negative words that reflects how you view this generation and how you view this generation shapes how you will relate to this generation. And if there's any generation that values authenticity, it's Gen Z. So I'm not bringing these things up about individuality to pick on and blame Gen Zers. My point is that they're growing up in a world in which these are the sociological pressures telling them it's about

you. Conform reality to your desires. All of us are susceptible to being shaped by this because we live in the same culture. But especially when you're 12 and you're 15 and you're 18 and you're building your identity and you're figuring out who you are, trying to understand the world, these kind of factors deeply shape them in a way they don't tend to shape older generations as much as a whole. Well, I mean, just to reiterate, for sure, it's not their fault,

because we Gen Xers are the ones who created this world for them. And even parentally, I've got four kids, 15, 13, 11, and nine. And I know the potential disastrous effects of having and jealousy and you know um other things that are created on social media and so i we've taken a more one might say conservative or whatever thing where it's like we don't think you should have social media i've seen what it does it does people so when so again it's kind of a double effect of where the blame is. I think it's society as a whole that we've created that has good potential. But when you wade into this society that we've created haphazardly without an awareness of the potential danger, then that's a problem. But also I think parents, I think we do need to be a little more vigilant with understanding. I mean, this cell phone, I mean, the fact that we have a computer in our pocket,

this is just categorically unheard of in human society. I mean, it's like you take the effects of the printing press and what that did to literacy rates, information, and people can now read the Bible on their own and all these things. It's like, well, times that by a million. And now we're letting nine-year-olds walk around with the entire world in their pocket. And then we say, oh, you're entitled. What's like, we're giving them the keys to entitlement when we give them complete liberty, I think, to engage the world as it is in a way without some guidance. Any thoughts on that?

You're a parent. So what do you? Well, entitlement's an interesting way to put that because I didn't allow my son to have a cell phone until he's about 14 and a half. Yeah. And I'll tell you my thinking on this. I wrote a blog post on it, and the point was my parents never said to me, when you're 16, you can drive and get a car. They said being 16 is necessary, but you're also going to have to show us that you're responsible and you can handle a car because your life and other lives are potentially in

jeopardy. If you don't show us your maturity, you won't get it until you're 18. So my parents, or until you're out of the house, my parents used it as a hook to motivate me to mature. So I said to my kids, I said, there's no guarantee you'll get a cell phone under our roof. Now, the soonest we would entertain it would be 13. But unless you show us character, the way you treat us, do your schoolwork, et cetera, certain criteria we set up for you, you won't get one. Well, just like Spider-Man, you know, Ben Parker says with power comes great responsibility. Well, in a cell phone, that's unbelievable power. There's incredible power that no 14 year olds in the history of the universe have ever had. And with that comes more intellectual, emotional,

moral challenges than any generation. So I don't think I can trust my son. Now, the pushback we got is my son's 14, my daughter's 11. I think she's the only one in her whole class that doesn't have one. And she's got to go. And that's been hard. We were in tears sometimes with my son because people would say mean things and almost try to bully him. Not bad just for not phone little comments. So it's like the parents who are trying to say, you know what, we're not buying this digital revolution. We're going to be wise and thoughtful about this. All the parents that are not make it harder to be honest for those that are trying to do the right thing. But I don't care what everybody else does. I told my son, I'm like, you are going to have to show me some maturity, not perfect. And even when you get it,

you'll probably make mistakes. But a cell phone and his desire to have one is an opportunity. And when you hand it to a kid, you lose that opportunity. Right. So good. We had the same thing with our oldest daughter. Yeah, I think we got her a phone at 13. At first it was a flip phone that for various reasons, and these aren't necessarily great reasons, but I remember economically, it actually made more sense to put her on our plan to have a phone like a like a smartphone and then we're like well then she can like text us better and all this stuff so we we kind of went into it without thinking too much but then we we saw the negative effects and she was the first one to admit it so then we took

away she never had social media but we even said uh we don't want you using text we had this app that like deleted text from her phone. She's like, how am I supposed to communicate with people? She's like, pick up the phone and call. Like people don't do that. People literally don't talk to each other even through a phone call. I'm like, that's a problem. If your friends cannot pick up the phone and call you, if they refuse to relate to you, unless it's through text, that's a problem.

Those aren't the types of friends I think that you want. And it was hard at first. And she, we had the same tears on the couch and all this stuff. And she came back and thanked us because you're not, cause she, she found herself just lost. We'd see her face. She's like texting and all this stuff. And then like, she didn't text me back or what does she mean by that? You know, and texting is just a horrible, not horrible, but I mean, it has, it's a very limited a horrible not horrible but i mean it has yeah it's it's a it's a very limited relational experience and can lead to a lot of problems and we saw this freedom come over her once you kind of get past the hard part of it and then she'd go to school and see all her friends like she would

literally hear about people like boys and girls like flirted with each other on snapchat and text they'd see each other in the hallway and they wouldn't even look at each other. Yeah. She would see seen this now. And she's like, this isn't set. Now she's seen as a 15.

Oh, she's like, this is insane. People stand in circles and they sit there and like text or on social media. And they're not even talking to each other. So I, so far it's worked out pretty good where my kids themselves have become

very like turned off by the hyper kind of social media culture she's like it's just weird like that you can't even talk to somebody face to face but you'll like flirt with them on snapchat or whatever you're dating on social media but you don't even see each other in person you know but well just imagine that you talk to your kids i try to talk to my kids and you know i'm making mistakes and i'm in process and learning how to do this. But probably the majority of this generation don't have parents and people and adults to even talk with them about this. Let's process how this affects your relationships. Let's process how this affects whether you can sleep or not. Let's talk about how whether this is healthy or not for relationships.

They don't. They just imbibe it. And that's because most adults do the same thing. Totally, yeah. Let's don't they just imbibe it and that's because most adults do the same thing boundaries for technology sometimes adults are the worst like the older generation gets sometimes they get a free pass dude i see so many older people like the second the thing buzzes they're in the middle of the conversation they'll stop and do like this no look no literally like as i'm talking with them i'm like the heck you doing like what are coming yeah 14 year old junior high girl you know like what do you do but so i yeah it's i think we're all i i think here's here's the one difference is that you i mean millennials to some

extent but gen x and boomers we have a life history a pattern of embodied relationships phone calls so that now we at least have a foundation that we can go back to and draw upon right wouldn't you say that whereas this generation if we just bathe them in social media or or online communication as a primary way of relating they have nothing to fall like that's their foundation they're for me which i think can be super dangerous i was on a, this is probably two years ago, and I noticed this lady. If I remember, she was 80 or 85, and she was on a tablet.

And she was reading a book on a tablet. I thought, wow, 80-year-old grandmas are comfortable using technology. So I sent out a tweet, something to the effect of, the digital revolution has arrived. Even grandmas use technology. And somebody responded back and said, no, it'll only fully arrive when people like you and your generation don't even notice it anymore. Totally right. There's no collective experience of say, getting lost because you have your mobile phone. There's no collective experience of like, I don't have your mobile phone there's no collective experience

of like i don't know the answer who led the nba in scoring in 2008 let's just look it up and ask siri and no in 20 seconds there's no experience so it just so that's where i struggle i i i as you are i mean just constantly inquisitive, have questions about everything. How far is the moon away from the earth? You know, how fast, you know, whatever. Like, and I just Google, I'm always Googling just random stuff. Like who's Katy Perry dating right now? You know, like any, any question that comes up and like, Ooh, is that, is that, could that be unhealthy? Where are they quick access to information, I mean,

I guess it can be unhealthy if it's like becomes addictive or I'm just so absorbed with it, but just, is it, is it bad that we can get information so quickly now or is that, could that be a good thing? No, I don't think it's bad. I think it actually shows in the world we live in where people say this is a post-truth culture, right? Word of the year, 2016. People are searching for facts and data and truth all the time we know

that facts matter this first hit me probably six or eight years ago i was speaking at berkeley to this atheist group and i'm giving a presentation and all these atheists are sitting there googling everything that i said and challenging it right in the spot. I thought, wow, at least the accessibility of information creates a desire to know truth. Now, the problem that it raises is everybody has a voice. Everybody can claim something. Do we really know what is true? And are we using discernment? That's a problem that comes along with this. So the way I put it is if you think back to say the Kennedy assassination, there was what, one or two cameras, couple photographs, and people always thought if there's just more cameras, then some of the conspiracies that arose would not have arisen. Well, fast forward to 9-11, there's far more cameras, far more information,

Fast forward to 9-11, there's far more cameras, far more information, and there's actually more conspiracies, arguably, than there were for JFK. So increased information, the fact that people are searching stuff all the time, like you said, does show that we want to know truth and facts matter. That at least shows something intuitive about the way we're wired. But the problem is that there's endless perspectives on every single issue you can imagine. I think it creates the background of Jen's ears and really everybody today. Can I really know truth? Can I have confidence? How do I know that I'm right when endless smart people see it differently? That's one of the downsides that have emerged of the positive side of being able to be a researcher and have the information that's accessible. What do you say? That's a huge, yeah, that's a growing problem

I've seen is like, because there's so many options out there and anybody with a large following on YouTube is seen as an expert, right? Or we depend on Kanye West for our political insights until he flip-flops and then now, Oh yeah, no, he's crazy again, you know? So, so I think what we have, we have, we have weird views of who are actual authorities, but I do run into this, especially, and maybe we can go here, but the sexuality conversation where, you know, there's enough books on what, you know,

the affirming side that people could say, well, you're smart and he's smart. You have a book, he has a book. I'll just flip a coin and there's multiple interpretations. I just kind of pick which one I want. How do you address that maybe with youth in particular, where they see here's one interpretation, here's another interpretation, and they see them as just kind of equally valid? What do you say to that? Well, I think the church has never really been biblically illiterate, at least in America, in decades past. But it didn't matter because there wasn't an issue like sexuality dividing the church and bringing to the service the lack of biblical literacy. All of a sudden now, there's people who are smart, who are likable, that appeal to the Bible on both sides. People don't know how to read the Bibles.

They don't know their Bibles. So they're torn up about it. Well, I think part of what we do is I noticed this last spring with high school, with a high school class I was teaching, I said, you know, I've got to go back and just teach hermeneutics. So I spent, must've been six to 10 weeks walking my students through, how do you understand Psalms differently than you understand Proverbs, understand the law versus the gospels and the Pentateuch, et cetera. And just teaching methodology of how we arrive at conclusions rather than just debating the conclusions. And in this debate, oftentimes people don't lay out their hermeneutics,

how they arrive at certain conclusions. And so we're left looking at the results with the consequences that you said. So I'll number one is I'll go back to the hermeneutical method and say, okay, how do we read the book of Genesis, Genesis one and two? How should we look at Matthew 19, Romans one, et cetera. And we'll do kind of a basic analysis of, can you know truth? How do you interpret scripture and methodology itself before we can even debate the issues the other thing i'll do is i'll say you know what they'll always be smart people on different sides we can't research all of this let's take one argument and go in a lot of depth about it so you can see why we can have confidence in the historic

christian view so it might be that i'll say, let's go to Genesis 1 and 2 and just spend a few days unpacking this in depth. Or let's go to, I probably wouldn't start Leviticus 18, but you could go there, right? For 50 reasons. Let's go to Romans 1 or let's go to Matthew 19. And let's unpack this, look at all the other objections. And then I'm able to say to students, okay, can you see why the historic Christian view is correct? If we take the time to unpack it, you can arrive at a confident position. Now we haven't studied all these issues, but I want you

to have that confidence and knowledge that what the church has believed for 2000 years is for a reason. It's credible. It has multiple layers of evidence that aren't just assumptions or inaccurate assumptions. I mean, it's a credible, compelling, and you and I would say absolutely true view. When it comes to youth, the sexuality conversation, is there anything unique among Gen Zers that you can speak into when it comes to the sexuality conversation? Well, the one thing for, you know, when I was in high school, I remember there was thoughts that a few kids might be gay. And, you know, we'd use, not me, but our culture would use derogatory terms about certain games we would play and refer to people. It was just part of the common parlance.

Well, now it's not just part of the common parlance. Well, now it's not just an abstract issue about somebody maybe. It's everybody has seen gay characters on television. They all have friends who are, or at least are one removed from friends. And they live in a world that says, if you don't praise and love this, you're the one who's the bigot. Yeah, totally. So it's that entire shift is weighing in on Generation Z. So many of them feel like their hearts are torn with, gosh, I want to believe what my parents tell me, what the church teaches, the Bible says, but

I don't really have a clue why a guy and guy can't just get married and be happy. And it's a visceral emotional level that affects them. So that's what a lot of older generations miss. They say, well, just look at the Bible. It's obvious. And they're like, this is my friend. This is an entire ethos I've raised up in. I don't want to be a jerk.

So I think that's deep for them. And the other factor of this generation is this is an absolutely unmistakably pornified generation. It's the first generation that's been raised with pervasive access to pornography one click away and you keep your kids away from it. They're friends or a babysitter or someone is going to show it to them. So I don't even think when it comes to all issues of sexuality, we have really come to grips with how much our pornified culture is shaping the way this generation even thinks about

sex and marriage and relationships. Does it diminish the value? They just think sex is just some quick thing you do with your body to get some pleasure. And is it kind of diminished the deepness, the value of sex, do you think? Well, I think it's done a few things. One thing pornography unmistakably does is create a sense of objectifying other people. I mean, there's studies that show this. But when somebody looks at pornography, rather than loving that person as a human being, you see a person as an object that you use for your own happiness and end. So it was actually St. John Paul II who said

the problem with pornography is not that it shows too much, it's that it shows too little. Now what he meant by that is not that it shows too much in terms of somebody taking their clothes off. He means it shows too little because sex is not just a physical act. It's emotional, it's relational, and pornography reduces this just to a physical act. It's emotional, it's relational, and pornography reduces this just to a physical act. So I think that's one effect that it has in this generation. The other effect is kind of related to the same thing we said about cell phones. It's much easier to just text somebody something than deal with them as a human being in person. Well, think about a teenage boy and pornography is an issue for girls as well it's not it's it's cross-gender but take a 12 13 year old boy who's trying to figure out if he

asks a girl out and she might say no turn him down not secure his identity it's much easier to just soothe himself by looking at pornography than by taking that relational risk and being hurt, especially generation that says you should never feel bad about yourself. You should always feel good. So those are just a couple of the ways that it shapes. And there's also a direct correlation between even Christian kids who look at pornography and reduced commitment to biblical authority. It undermines biblical authority in a kid's mind. Really? Well, yeah. Can you tease that out a little more? That's interesting. The experience of like, hey, this seems great. And so the Bible must be wrong or what's the...

Well, my source for saying that is my father commissioned the largest study within the church in 2016 through Barner Research on, it's called the porn phenomenon. And one of the things that came out of there is that kids who would look at pornography would have a reduced sense of commitment to biblical authority. And I think because they feel this deeper tension between pornography looks fun, it looks satisfying, it looks appealing, it's easy. And it kind of casts God in a negative, authoritarian, dominating fashion that's old-fashioned that just doesn't relate to the world I'm in anymore. So I'm going to trust my feelings. I'm going to trust what I see. Not some antiquated book that doesn't really describe the world as I seem to experience it, or at least everybody tells me I should experience it. I seem to experience it, or at least everybody tells me I should experience it. Well, with sexuality and the younger, in Gen Z, younger generation, I think everybody's assumption is like within the Christian world, you have like Gen Xers like you and I, who

are kind of like, you know, 60, 40, 70, 30, believe in a traditional view for the most part. You have millennials that are more like maybe the opposite. And you have this trajectory of the younger you get, just the more progressive you are going to be in your views of sexuality do you see that trajectory maintaining or do you see it stabilizing or even turning around the one the one um the one yeah interesting thing i've seen is on a political level some interesting almost like a almost like a swing back to some more conservative views i think views like against abortion are actually swinging up among younger people that are against abortion or even you have some kind of some like strange like uh popular

people who are conservative like on YouTube and stuff. People like a Blair White who's a transgender transition transgender person who's actually like pro-Trump you know or you have things like the Kanye thing that came out like that's not abnormal or even yeah even like black political figures more and more who are conservative and don't think racism is the number one problem in America, you know, and I've seen an interesting swing just of like being conservative. Isn't just these old white straight fogey men, you know,

it seems like there it is more, there's more conservative voices and even younger voices than, than I would expect five or 10 years ago. Anyway, that's a long question. How do you see when it comes to say same-sex marriage or even sex outside of marriage, where's the direction going among Gen Z? So I don't know the answer to that. I hesitate to predict two, five, three, 10 years out because trends are changing so quickly i do think there are some cultural pushbacks not just among generation z but a number of people even when it comes to transgender issues saying wait a minute we were told science matters that someone was born that

way now we're told biology and science doesn't matter which is and you're seeing some atheists people like you know even sam harris not so much on that issue but other issues pushing back from a variety of different angles now it's still a minority but it's not an insignificant correction i think that is taking place on issues of sexuality what that means for gen z gosh i don't know all i can say is i it may swing back with this generation i haven't seen the positive signs to believe that it will i think i'll take a lot more voices in christianity talking about this and presenting a historic christian view that's not just true not just quoting leviticus but like presenting a compelling not just, but a compelling sexual ethic and doing so frequently

and pervasively and deconstructing the destructive telos of a secular approach to sexuality. I think it's going to take a few things. I think it's going to take the courage for people to speak up. I mean, there's even some times on this issue where I have hesitated to speak up because I don't want to be, you know, just beaten up by a ton, not physically, but just attacked. Certain times I've just spoken truth. People get attacked. Like for example, the narrative specifically that teaching a historic Christian view of sexuality causes gay people to be lonely, depressed, and attempt suicide. That is a powerful emotional narrative. I've really looked closely at my own heart going, man, if I'm contributing to this,

I better take seriously my life and my theology if this is true. Now, I don't buy it for a number of reasons we could talk about, but I just wrote a review on my blog for the first time publicly. Now, I don't buy it for a number of reasons we could talk about, but I just wrote a review on my blog for the first time publicly. I pushed back on that and said there is no evidence tying this specific theological teaching with the suffering of LGBTQ people. There's narratives of people that suffer, and I hurt for them. But there's also narratives of people like Jackie Hill Perry, like Daniel Mattson, for which the biblical teaching has set them free. So to buy that the historic Christian view is responsible for the suffering, you're going to have to do more than tell us narratives and give us, basically tell stories. So my point in saying this is one thing we need is people with the courage to just speak up and say truth lovingly, not to win an argument.

Because if people are really suffering, it is the loving thing to do to identify what the cause is. And we have to tell better stories. And we have to give a positive narrative of why God's view for sex and marriage is good and it's beautiful and it's wonderful. We haven't told that narrative. Yeah. Sean, I literally just wrote a blog two days ago on the same exact question. The title is, does the traditional view of marriage harm LGBTQ people? Because it has become the, I would say, number one argument now.

I mean, Matthew Vines lists listed as number one on his website of why the traditional view is not correct it's because it harms uh lgbtq people and and with you i think it has a rhetorical power especially in a in a in an emotional driven maybe i don't mean emotional maybe a relationally driven culture which is good in many ways nobody wants to harm anybody harming somebody's whatever so if you just say this thing harms that thing these people on any issue people you gain an audience but yeah i don't i think um what i've said is and i would love to hear your thoughts actually i want to go read your blog now um i have no doubt that christians

some christians have harmed physically or psychologically LGBT people. I'm going to guess those Christians also hold to a traditional view of marriage. But to show that that specific theological view is to draw a direct line from that specific view to these actions. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but you can't just assume it is. You can't assume correlation equals causation. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but you can't just assume it is. You can't assume correlation equals causation. And yeah, really, whenever I hear that argument,

it'll describe the traditional view in the worst possible terms. So what is a traditional view? I believe with most of global monotheism for 2,000 plus years that sex difference is part of what marriage is almost every society on earth has believed that and that sexual relationships belong within that covenant i mean that's that's that's kind of a yawner like that's most people like well you know like if that idea causes is it that i that raw idea that causes parents to kick their gay kids out of the house that's crazy that's insane like how would you draw a psychological or sociological line between sex difference is part of what marriage is i think my son is hideous and needs to get kicked out of

the house because he said he's attracted to other boys or whatever like that if you want to make that connection you have to provide a lot of really strong sociological evidence. You can't just assume that that correlation equals causation. Anyway, go. I want to hear your thoughts on that. It's just like, what did you, I'm glad you pushed back on that. Now I, I have something I didn't write in my article, but I personally asked one of the leading psychologists who you would know, not going to mention his name, who writes and researches on the subject and one of the leading psychologists who you would know, not going to mention his name, who writes and researches on the subject and one of the leading pollsters in America. I said,

in the way we do empirical research, is it possible to isolate that factor of belief in historic Christian teaching views on sex and marriage as being the cause of suffering in the life of LGBTQ people. And they both looked at me. They said, there's no way empirically, unless you did like a multimillion dollar study and had so many cross factors given relationships, given environment, given so many beliefs, it's not according to any valid experimental approach.

You can't isolate that among all the kinds of views that are out there. So a lot of these studies that show that kids who are trans or LGBTQ are kicked out of Christian homes. Well, they don't make a distinction between a Christian home who believes that's wrong and who are fundamentalists and a Christian home who believes that's wrong, like the fundamentalists and a Christian mom who believes that's wrong, like the family that I was fortunate to grow up in. And my dad, if I had said that to him, would have looked at me and said, son, I love you. This will never change. I'll stand by you.

Work this through together. Nothing would make me not love you. Well, none of these studies make the distinction between those two kinds of responses. So I push back and just say, I didn't use this word, but you kind of got to put up or shut up because this is a really serious charge that people are saying that you and I have blood in our hands. And I want to see the evidence that they're going to say it to me. To be honest with you, I get kind of angry thinking about it because I care about people on all sides of this issue. And I've tried to follow the data, and I feel like people are manipulating this argument. Now, the other thing I would say is,

if you look at the Netherlands, interestingly enough, and I know you're aware of this study, is if the reason LGBTQ people suffer is because of historic Christian teachings on sexuality, then if we can find a place where it's not being taught, we should expect people not to suffer, right? Well, the Netherlands is the most pro-LGBTQ country, if not in the world, in Europe. They decriminalized homosexual behavior in the late 1800s. In the early 1900s, they had a gay bar that opened up. They fashioned themselves

as being pro-LGBTQ. In fact, even within Europe, they have the highest rate of people in favor of same-sex marriage. And yet, at least according to one study I document in my article I just posted, there is no statistical difference between the suffering in the lives of gay people in the Netherlands depression loneliness suicidality and gay people in America yeah so I'm not going to answer what the cause is to that I don't know all the details yeah but I know it's short-sighted and it hasn't been proven and established that it directly is Christian teaching that's responsible for that that's responsible for that. That's good. I want to see that study. I think I know which one you're talking about.

Do you get accused of being, so when I hear all that, the logic side of me is like, yeah, this is just, of course, this is a discussion we need to have. I could see some people saying, Sean, you're so insensitive. You obviously don't care about the suicidality, which is not at all what you say or even believe, but do you get to, do people still keep writing the kind of emotional side of this? And when you start dealing with logic, they think you're being insensitive or. Yeah. And all I say is, and this doesn't necessarily solve it. I say, you know what, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you the charity of assuming that you're motivated by what you actually think is right. You think this narrative

causes harm. Fine. I think you're wrong, but I'm not going to question your motivations. Why don't you give me the same kind of charity? I've cried with kids struggling over their sexual identity. Don't tell me that I don't have compassion and care. You haven't walked in my shoes. Now I haven't walked in LGBTQ people's shoes. I fully admit that, but I've tried and I've listened and I've cried with people and I've done my best.

So yes, I have a lot to learn, but instead of attacking me, why don't you respond to my argument is what I would say. If it was in an academic setting, that's what I would say. If I really sense that it was somebody who is hurting, I might not even try to defend myself. I might listen. I'd say, you know, I've really tried to listen, be sensitive. Do you think there's a way for me to hold what I really think is true? And I'm going to back up and be more sensitive and

kind. And if so, what would that look like? Because I'm willing to listen. That's what I would say. That's good. Yeah. I really struggle with it because it's, it, because my intellectual side gets, gets really, um, annoyed or even just maybe passionate about bad logic. And I want people to see good life. Like it's just, that's just the way I'm wired, you know? Yeah. Then my, my relational side, when I hear that argument, it just hits me in the gut because do you know how many emails i have in my inbox of gay and lesbian people that said i had a gun

in my mouth some i mean i'm thinking of two that that's a literal statement and then i read your book people to be loved and now i want to live so you have your anecdotal evidence of assuming that historic views are causing suicide i i've got my anecdotal evidence what do we do with that like i there's in a sense there's nothing you can say anecdotally that's going to convince me because i have the names and faces who are now my friends of all these people that would say the exact opposite who aren't who are gay and lesbian you know so i don't and it breaks my heart because i've said the same thing with you like i've sat with these people my friends for many many hours and just some of those life-giving redemptive conversations ever and then to be accused of having blood on my hands like that's just

it's it is a kick in the gut to me you know and yet it's and then logically it's like it's just i mean misdiagnosing a problem is just as dangerous as promoting something that could potentially cause harm i mean as a counselor if you or a doctor if you misdiagnose the problem and do an operation and try to fix the thing that's wrong when that's not actually the thing that's wrong like that's i mean that you have blood on your hands for that you can almost say you know you could suicidality is so complicated it's so complex man to say it's because of a religious view of marriage is held by most people around the globe like that's just intellectually it's just uh yeah irresponsible the tension that i feel is i had

somebody recently i was speaking and i was talking about how there's an increased pressure for christians and it might cost them something to live according to their convictions and their beliefs uh we've seen this in people getting sued and being attacked and their name being smeared for holding historic Christian teaching. I simply made that point. The guy came up to me afterwards, he goes, I just disagree with everything you said. I said, instead of getting defensive, I said, okay, tell me what you disagree with. He goes, well, you mentioned that, but what about all the harm the church has done? And I said, you know, I don't disagree with that. I talked about the problem of evil, and part of that is probably the harm the church has done. I said, you know, I don't disagree with that. I talked about the problem of evil. And part

of that is probably the harm the church has done. I said, what did I say that made you think that I don't agree with you that the church has brought some harm? You know, we went on a few times and finally I said, you know what? I sense that there might be some hurt in your life and you're reading it into something that I didn't say. So if I can do a better job of being sensitive and balanced, I'd like to do that. I'm open to working on that. And I'll give this some thought. On the flip side, I would just encourage you to think about, are you importing your expectations and your harms upon me in a way that I haven't said. I said, if you listen to the things I say,

I've actually worked really hard to be gracious and kind and balanced, especially on this issue. And he walked away and then he came back the next day. He actually apologized to me. And I think it was tied to this LGBTQ issue. And it just hit me that I live in this tension of like, and I know you do too, I want to be as kind and I want to be humble and willing to get better and love people in a way the church has fallen short so many times. On the flip side, when somebody tells me that I have blood on my hands

and the teachings of Jesus has blood on its hands, I can't sit and let that go unanswered. I'm going to push back. And we need people with the courage to push back, not to win an argument, not to sound smart, but to correctly diagnose the problem. Now, if you and I push back and they answer everything, we're left going, right fine let's revisit it but the evidence is not there so that's the tension that i live in and i don't always respond correctly and sometimes look back i'm like i could have missed more than that but i think that's the approach we should take a brokenness with a humility a willingness to listen especially on on this subject, but also not shy away from speaking truth, especially when somebody says, you have blood in your hands.

I'm like, you better back that up. Yeah, that's so good, man. I spoke a few weeks ago at a chapel at a college, and I gave a real, and I asked people, you know, very clear presentation what the Bible says about marriage and why I believe in a historic Christian view. We went to Genesis. We went to, uh, Matthew 19. I think I'm, I don't know if I went to Rome, maybe I went to Romans or whatever. Um, and I started with a lot of stories about how the church has harmed LGBT people

and how we need to stop that. It was kind of a grace truth kind of message. I kid you not one student came up and, and kind of me had leviticus 2013 written out which i had on the board and said i want you to read this and i was like oh yeah yeah i had it on the board yeah so i read it and she's like the bible does not teach same-sex marriage i was like were you here like how did you and then the next person i think this is on social media was like why does Preston Sprigle hate gay people so much? But it just illustrates the point that you have these two radically counter-opposite responses to my message that heard it through a certain lens because when I started talking, it didn't fit the kind of paradigm they wanted it to be presented in.

Or it maybe triggered some other thoughts about what somebody else did or thought or something like that and and this is true in any conversation but i think especially in the lgbtq conversation there's so much just hurt and damage and pain and assumptions and fear and all these and misunderstanding that uh people oftentimes don't interpret what somebody's saying with in the most charitable light so yeah i think you're right and that's christians and that's from the left i try to tailor the kind of response i give to the medium in which i am at so i wrote a blog responding to the most recent book defending same-sex relationships and i was at least for me much more firm and critical of this book than I typically come out in my conversations, because this is a person who's an academic trying to persuade the church to adopt this.

So you better believe I'm going to be critical in that fashion. Now, when I had a public conversation with Matthew Vines, Matthew's a friend of mine, and I respect him, and I want to care for him. And I didn't want to push back so hard to embarrass him in any fashion, but I also want to firmly hold his feet to the fire. So I try to have gentleness and truth in that conversation. When I'm speaking pastorally with somebody, sometimes I'm like, let's not even go to a passage. Just tell me what's going on in your heart and your mind.

Let's talk about this. And that's frankly 90% of people. That's really what most people yeah that's really what most people are so good sean where can people find your stuff you mentioned your blog a few times is that seanmcdowell.com or what's your blog uh i think dot com might be a sportscaster i haven't checked in years but seanmcdowell.org is my site and i've got i'm on twitter and i don't just send out stupid cat videos. I send out, what I try to send out is

I spend a good amount of time going through, reading dozens of articles, reading out ones of value, quotes, resources. So someone could go there and save them time having to read 50 articles for two that are good. So that's part of my ministry there. There's, I do a YouTube video, like three minutes once a week, kind of a quick, tough answer. Somebody sends me

blog, there's links to the books. But SeanMcDowell.org would be the way we can, we could connect. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being on the Sean. Dude, I can't tell you how much I appreciate yeah, your voice, not only Christianity, not only in the sexuality conversation, but the fact that you're able to speak not just truth to youth, but you understand youth and you do so in such a compelling way. So thanks for your existence and thanks for being on Theology in the Raw. Thanks for my existence, man. I appreciate that. That's awesome. Hey, love what you're doing. Appreciate it. And the feelings are mutual. Keep up the good work.