Theology in the Raw - 717: #717 - Homeschool vs. Christian School vs. Public School: A Conversation with Dr. Ed Uszynski

Episode Date: December 31, 2018

On episode #717 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Ed Uszynski. Ed Uszynski (PhD, Bowling Green State University) has been working with collegiate and professional athletes in various roles with Athletes in Action since 1992. Currently he serves as Executive Editor and Senior Writer for the AIA website, while also speaking nationally to college students, churches, and men’s groups on biblical Christianity. Follow Ed on Twitter. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of Theology in a Raw. I have on the show today my very, very good friend, Dr. Ed Uzinski. Dr. Ed Uzinski is back by popular demand. He was on the show a few months ago, and I got so much great feedback from that episode. He's a provocative dude. He's an incredibly smart guy. He's very raw. He's a provocative dude. He's an incredibly smart guy. He's very raw. He's so raw. And me and him together is a really bad combination. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

Maybe I should have edited some stuff out. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. I guess I'll know from the emails, but I think most of you will really enjoy this episode. Ed and I, when we get together, we just talk about whatever is coming into our brains and neither of us have a very thick filter. So we just got to talk about all kinds of stuff. In this episode, we spent quite a bit of time talking about parenting and education. Should you public school? Should you homeschool? Should you Christian school? Or what should you do? How does this all relate to the Christian life? We talked about that for a while. We also talked about gender, some stuff going on in the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. We also talked about stuff related to politics and tribalism and polarization and society and theology and blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah. We talk about all kinds of stuff. So I hope you enjoy this episode. If you're new to the show or if you are old to the show and you are not a supporter of the show, I just want you to know that you're welcome to continue to not support the show. That's totally awesome. It's cool. It's a podcast. Most people who listen to podcasts don't support it. I listen to tons of podcasts that I don't support. But if you wanted to support the show, this is a listener-supported show. I depend on the support that my podcast listeners and supporters give to Patreon. And Patreon is a platform that I use to get supported. So patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. If you want to support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get some premium content in return, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw.

Would really, really appreciate your support. But again, if you'd rather give your money to the poor, to the needy, to the down and out, to the marginalized, then I highly encourage you to do that instead of giving to this podcast. But if you have a little extra cash where you can give to both people, both me and my podcast, and also to the poor, that'd be awesome too. Okay. Without further ado, let's get to know, once again, back by popular demand, Dr. Ed Yuzinski. Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Narah. I am here with my very good friend, Ed Uzinski, back by popular demand. We recorded a podcast a few months ago, Ed, and I got so many positive responses to that episode, which I love because, you know, if I have like Francis Chan or Beth Moore on the podcast, you know, everybody loves a familiar name.

Your name isn't quite up there with Beth Moore or Francis Chan. But our conversation, I thought, hit a nerve. Not hit a nerve, but like I think it was, I thought, hit a nerve. Not hit a nerve, but I thought it was interesting. I think you did too. And apparently a lot of other people did too. And so anyway, thanks for being back on the show. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yep.

All right, man. Yeah, where do we start? What do you want to talk about, man? We didn't plan this at all because, I mean, there's few people on the planet, I think, where you can just literally not even plan anything and just kind of go for it. So that's what we're going to do today. Well, here's what I woke up thinking about today that I wanted to ask you about. And that's, I mean, this is an old, might even almost sound boring on the front, on the face of it,

but schooling options. I was rethinking schooling options today. So, you know, we've got four kids and we've got our kids across the board in terms of where they're at. We've got one in public school. Actually, we've got two in public school. One is just local here. Another goes to a Dayton STEM school.

So he's in the science technology engineering and math school. And then we've got two that are in Christian school now. And at one point we were homeschooling and wound up not doing that anymore. But I was really thinking about the, the fallout of our choices so even even before I say anything more what are you guys doing for school for your kids and how did you end up deciding what you're doing if that's a a containable answer it sort of is I mean I guess um goodness let me um let me first of all say that everything that's about to come out of my mouth, that this is what we did and are doing, not what parents should do.

This is the is, not the ought, to put it in ethical terms. Because parenting is like an ongoing car accident. I mean, it's just, yeah, you're just scrambling to drown trying to figure out how to make sense of it all. So we, okay, let me go way back. And I'll try to be brief and we can kind of drill down into specific points. To go way back, I was, before I even had kids, I was more against homeschooling. My wife was more for it. Now, there was some overlap there.

I wasn't completely against it. She wasn't completely against public school. So when our first daughter, Kaylee, was born, we put her into kindergarten. Then we put her into first grade. It was halfway through first grade when it just, I mean, she was six years old. And they already had boyfriend girlfriend stuff going on at school there was gossip it was just yeah it was just like at six years old like golly and so we're like man i don't know should we consider homeschooling and it was actually her

kalia says man i would love to be homeschooled so we brought her home and of course there's the fear of like she's going to be socially awkward and socially inept and i you know i never so i never i never i never really bought into that um stereotype because look i you went to public school i went to public school there were socially awkward kids at public school and then when you meet their parents you're like well they come from socially awkward families. Like it's not really that school makes you that way. And same thing with public school. Like our kids were incredibly social.

Kalia, I mean, one of my earliest memories is we had a Christmas party in Scotland. She was two years old. She stayed up till midnight dancing, talking with people, eating tons of candy. She might've even tried to sip my wine like i don't know she's just a was a party animal she's it doesn't have a socially awkward bone in her body and so she we homeschooled her all the way through up until the middle of seventh no up until the middle of eighth grade so all of our kids ended up all four kids uh followed in her wake so from

middle of first grade with kalia all the way to middle of eighth grade with her and the rest of our kids were homeschooled then she desperately wanted to go to junior high and so we broke all the rules all of our rules and said okay in the middle of eighth grade we're gonna send a pre-teen girl to june to public high, which is exactly what we decided we would never do. And she got a taste of it. She liked it for a little bit. She went through a little, you know, teenage stage that every teenager is going to go through. And then after ninth grade, she said, yeah, I'm done with this. Nobody here is interesting. They're all just looking at their phones. They're addicted to social media. They're just have no ambition. They're just like, yeah, she's like, I have

ambition in life. I'm going to go somewhere. I want to try to maybe finish school early. I don't like looking at my phone all day. And so can I come home? I said, sure, come home. My younger two kids we now have in public school. So Cody's in fourth grade. He's at public school. Josie's in sixth grade. They're both at public school right down the street. It's a really good school. And they're doing great.

And it's the best thing for them. Kalia and Aubrey, my two oldest, Aubrey is in eighth grade. Kalia is in tenth grade. And they both are in a hybrid where they go to school two days a week at this, it's kind of like a, it's not a Christian school, but it's, I mean, it's like 90% Christians and Mormons, I think. So it's a public hybrid school where you go to school two days a week, another three days there. Actually the other, the other two days, because we take Friday off because we have, the world's a big place and we need to explore the world so we take friday to just do whatever um so yeah they do a hybrid where they go to school two days a week and then they're

i wouldn't say they're homeschooled because it's not like my wife's like at the kitchen table with them at a you know in a i don't know what i was like an apron or something i mean my wife's working and stuff at home but the kids are having having... Yeah. She's just, you know, in between baking, you know, she's running and doing workbooks with the kids. So they do like an online school and then they do go to school two days a week. So that's the short of it. Every kid's different. I think there is no magic bullet. And I think, yeah, you just have to do it works for each kid in in where they're at in

their in their discipleship journey and that just shifts and changes every month really you guys are more of a dumpster fire than we are i thought we were a mess i didn't know that yeah man wow well you guys left before we were getting into all these kinds of conversations, so we haven't really gotten to do this together. But we basically have done the same kind of chaos. Like, there hasn't been one way, which is interesting because, you know, when you get in these conversations with people, just like everything else, we tend to be very polarized about what the options are that there's only one right way you got to have your kids in public school otherwise there won't be christian light there you've got to have your kids in christian school otherwise they'll be you know defrauded by public education you've got to have your kids in homeschool so that you can

control outcomes and make sure that certain things happen. And, and it's just, it really is interesting how dogmatic people are about the options. But so, so here's what got me thinking about it, though. Because obviously, I'm interacting with kids that are in all in all three of these different realms. Like people end up arguing for the position because of the benefits that they think it provides. And I get that. I find myself extremely aware of the downside of each of the options. Like, what is it that we need to fear? That's good. So I'm, I'm, I'm, and, and fear protect ourselves from, uh,

be aware of. So, you know, if you send your kids to a public school, they are going to be indoctrinated with humanism. They are obviously not going to get a Christian education there. And so you need to be aware of whatever the humanistic teaching is. If you're in a Christian school, though, now you won't hear humanism, but now you need to protect yourself from legalism. Well, that too, but also the whole, like, assuming that they're going to get a solid Christian worldview. Look, I mean, a lot of, not all, but a lot of Christian schools I'm aware of are far to the right of where I'm at. I mean, they're still pledging allegiance, you know, which I don't, maybe shouldn't even go there, but, you know,

I see that as incongruent with a Christian, well, do I, nah, you know what, let's, I'm not going to go there right now. But let me just say that at least some Christian schools aren't necessarily bathing my kids in a Christian worldview in a way that I think is helpful. Or they would be staunch like creationists or young earth creationists or Republican only or kind of this right-wing Christianity. So just the bare fact of sending them to a Christian school might be even worse because it could give the impression that they are getting a quote-unquote solid Christian education, but it could be a pseudo Christian education. I don't know all the teachers. I don't know their background. I don't know. Right. Anyway. Here's where I want to go with this. And again, anytime we talk about these

things, we can get ourselves in all kinds of trouble. So much grace in our direction, please, listeners, as I think about this. But my experience has been in the handful of Christian schools that I've been around that I don't like the version of Christianity that is represented by the cumulative effect of what comes out of the school, the product that is produced, that it ends up feeling judgmental and legalistic and that we all become Christ against culture, you know, in Niebuhr's paradigm. We're all Christ against culture. Everything out there is evil. And yet the brochures all say that we're raising up kids that are going to go out and be world changers. Well, no, we're not. We're raising up kids that are going to be afraid of the world. They're going to stay as far away from it as they can, and they're going to surround themselves

only with the other legalistic Christians. That's what I feel and perceive happens. Here's my question, though, Preston, in this. What does it mean to produce a good Christian outcome if you go to a Christian school? Or even if you're homeschooled, let's say, under the banner of, you know, having a Christian curriculum. And I know we're doing this on the spot. But the reason why I ask this, I was with a group of seniors yesterday. I teach a senior seminar at a Christian school here locally. So I'm with 40 seniors. We've been together all semester. And yesterday we were doing exit interviews with them basically as a final exam. And this was just going through my mind as I was listening to them talk about

how their worldview has been affected by being at this school. And I wanted to dig in deeper to them as they talked about that they feel like they've become a good Christian person. And I wanted to dig in deeper to them as they talked about that they feel like they've become a good Christian person. And I want to say, well, what do you mean by that? There wasn't actually time to do that, which is a whole nother issue. But what do we mean by a good Christian person? What should that look like? I've been dreaming of, if I don't like what I'm seeing coming out of Christian schools, what would I want it to look like? And how would that get produced? So go ahead and respond to that. Like, what do you think, you know, in the best case scenario, what is an 18 year old's mind and life look like when

they come out of a Christian school as you envision it? What should it be? Yeah, that's good. Because I've got some thoughts. Okay. Oh, man. So the way I see it, I think our primary category, our umbrella category as parents should be discipleship.

Education is a subset of discipleship. So whatever, and so we can't assume that a particular form of education is like discipleship. It's a subset of discipleship. So kind of going back to your other point, like if you send them to a Christian school, you are still discipling your kids. And so you may need to address some of the missing links, the gaps, or maybe some of the cons that could happen in a Christian school. If the Christian school is sort of feeding them certain assumptions about a Christian worldview that you don't agree with, I think you need to address that. Don't just assume just because they're taking a Bible class that they're actually learning good things about the Bible. If they're homeschooled, I think we need to be very aware of the possible Phariseeism that could come from that.

I mean, in a sense, my fear with homeschooling has always been, I don't want my kids to turn out as Pharisees. They can be really, really moral kids and still be damned to hell because my Bible says that Jesus rebuked self-righteousness harsher than people who know they're all messed up. And again, I'm not saying, look, we homeschooled every single one of our kids at some stage in our life. So I'm not knocking homeschool as a, as an intrinsic thing. I'm just saying it is more prone to producing Pharisees who are, who don't love their enemy, who aren't, you know, you know, who don't have this natural passion to want to reach out to people who are socially unacceptable sinners. They do tend towards judgmentalism. And we had to fight that. We had to fight against that when our kids, when we'd take them out in public, you know, we would leave the house and go out into the world and they might see

a sinner smoking a cigarette or something. And they're like, he's smoking a cigarette. I'm like, don't you dare? No, no, no, no, no. We are not going to do that. We are not going to sit here and look down our self-righteous noses at the world, you know, whatever. So all that to say, there are pros and cons to each mode of education. We need to be aware of that. And as part of our discipleship process, walk with our kids in that. And, you know, also one more thing before I kick it back to you. I think the education, especially if it's in a Christian environment, homeschool, Christian education, should be focused on teaching kids how to think just as much as catechizing them in what to think. I think there needs to be a good, healthy balance there. I don't want to just teach them how to think and not what to think. I do think there is a role for, you know, what my Reformed friends would call catechesis, or simply saying, here are the tenets of the Christian faith

that we are raising you in. But I think we need to supplement that, but, you know, we need to also, you know, teach them how to think, not what to think. Because if they leave the house at 18 and they haven't been, they haven't faced, and they haven't been challenged or even deconstructed, you know, challenged in being able to give an account for why they believe what they believe, man, they're not going to, they're going to become the 80% statistic that ends up leaving the faith by the time they're 28 to become the 80% statistic that ends up leaving the faith by the time they're 28

because their biology professor showed them that a younger theology is congruent with a flatter theology, and how can you have your head so far up your rear that you actually believe this stupid stuff? And I'm not saying that's—I'm not agreeing with that. I'm just saying that's what they're going to be faced with. And if they've just been taught to memorize younger theology, that's just not going to work in the real world. And I'm not picking, I just keep using that as an example. I hope I'm not, I'm just saying that, you know, we need to understand why we believe what we believe, not just what we believe. Good. Yeah.

So this is what I'm hearing you say, and I love that. How to think, not just what to think. So how to think critically about everything that's coming your way, whether that is being given to you by a Christian teacher or it's coming to you from a person who is completely outside of that worldview. Because we're vulnerable to both. You just said that, Preston. We're vulnerable to bad teaching, whether it comes under the guise of Christians or under the guise of anti-Christian. We're vulnerable to bad thinking and stuff that doesn't really line up with Scripture. So I love that idea, how to think. So even just starting there, I mean, it takes a certain level of of talent and skill as an educator to help people learn how to think well i don't know that most people

know how to do that again that's not a slam on anybody like it takes work and skill to be able to be that kind of a teacher but that's a huge concern of mine. I don't know that most kids are coming out of Christian schools learning how to think. You also, what I also was hearing you say in there, even in being able to engage people that maybe are doing, making poor moral choices or whatever. But what I hear in that is to really love other people.

To learn how to love people that that's not just like something we so easily just kind of stick on a bumper sticker put on our t-shirt or make that you know spiritual emphasis week or whatever but it's hard work to love people that are different from you it's hard work to love people and to feel maybe the word that has to go there with that is to empathize with people to really really be able to feel other people's situations. So again, huge concern. I fear that what we instead teach our kids to do is to judge those behaviors. This is why we stay away and we kind of test that, which makes it really, really difficult then to empathize or actually love or even if

we're not teaching if we're not teaching even if we're not teaching that or fostering it sometimes we're just silent or we just kind of let it go we don't realize how great of a danger that is we need to be like look if you wouldn't let if you're homeschooling your kid and you wouldn't let your uh if you wouldn't let your 14 year old kid you know drink a six-pack of beer while you're homeschooling him, you'd say, oh my God, well, no, I would address that. Then you need to be more vigilant addressing any scent of judgmentalism, pharisaism, legalism, because that's more damnable than the six-pack. And I just think sometimes we're not as concerned about the,

we're not as vigilant about addressing some of these spiritual problems that could really wreck their faith later on. It will. Let's just theology in the raw. It will wreck their faith. It'll turn it into something phony. It'll turn it into something that is despicable, That's like anti grace and anti the cross ultimately. Like that's why I'm so disturbed by this. I had a couple of other things that I have on my list.

Like I want my kids to have been inoculated with secular thoughts. So, so just go here with me for a second. Like I want in a Christian school, I would want my kids to have explored evolution. Like why do people believe this? It's not just because they're all God haters. Like what, what really is the backdrop to evolutionary thought and how do we wind up with that? And I'm sure that that doesn't happen. Why do people wind up getting abortions? Let's talk about, you know, some of these big moral, right, conservative things that we know our parents get wound up about and that our school represents. But like, let's dive into how people wind up in those places. Let's,

let's look at poverty through a different lens. So what ends up happening i'm afraid is like if those topics get brought up they get brought up as straw men that are easily shot down and crushed it's not so that we can think about them or think about how other humans come to these conclusions it's just to to shoot it down if it gets brought up at all. So then how do I expect at some point, my kids, they're going to graduate and go out into the world among real people who have these real beliefs and we have no idea how they got there. So what do we do to those people? Because we're afraid, we don't know how to, you know, interact over these things. We just reject them. We stay away from them. So what good are you then if you really can't engage with the secular mind at all with your

Christianity? What good is it at that point? And another thing I'm going to say, and then I'll be quiet again so you can respond to this, is I would want them to be servants. Like service would be a huge part of their mentality. Not just that we go one time a year and do some kind of a work project in the community, but that they were literally being taught weekly through the curriculum of what a life of service on behalf of other people looks like, because that's where life is found because ultimately the gospel is a, is a ministry, right? And what is ministry? It's service to people.

It's learning how to serve people in their needs. It's learning how to serve people in their brokenness. Even as I acknowledge my own brokenness and try to connect to other human beings out of that. And my goodness, I just, I, I don't think that that is what, well, I'm not even going to say what doesn't happen. That's my ideal Christian school, that the curriculum gets overhauled in such a way that service is put front and center, that we're being, inoculating our kids with the secular worldview so that they really understand how to engage it, that we

really are teaching people to love and empathize with others, not reject them or morally judge them. And what you said, how to think and not just what to think so that they're not vulnerable to bad teaching wherever it comes from. So go ahead and respond or say something more about any of that. I had a couple of things written down here that you already kind of hit on. So go ahead and respond or say something more about any of that. goal should be spiritual formation so that if you are growing in knowledge, even good knowledge, even the kind of knowledge that we're talking about, and you're not cultivating more love for your enemy, more love for your neighbor, more of a servant's heart, then that's not a genuinely Christian holistic education. So I think spiritual formation must be woven throughout everything that

the education does. Also, here's one of the dangers of being in an environment where it's either all Christian or you never hear or see the face of the atheist who believes in evolution, who maybe doesn't like Christianity or rejects Christianity, when that view is set up, it's almost always going to be a caricature and a straw man. It's just, look, that's just human nature. When a bunch of people who believe one thing talk about the beliefs of another person, another view, it's just, it's always going to be slanted. So what happens when your child grows up, you know, learning even how to refute evolution or

the evils of evolution or atheism, this and people, you know, the neo-atheist trying to destroy Christianity. And they think that every atheist is like a Richard Dawkins or something. And then they go to college and they meet an atheist who's more generous than any Christian they've ever met, who's incredibly kind, who doesn't have a pitchfork and a red face and a, you know, tail, you know, but it's like, you know, you know, is a very honorable person, has integrity, is just genuinely kind, that's gonna, if you have set up that view in an unhelpful way, when they meet an actual person and put a face to it, it's going to send

their worldview into a tailspin. So I think this is where even if you're at a Christian school, it would be helpful to bring in an atheist who's kind, like bring in the best possible person. And look, you may lose a couple people. You may have some people at your school that you're going to say, man, that guy's more convincing than this Christianity thing. I'm out of here. Look, that's the risk we have to take. We need to set up the other views as best as we can. Because if we do the opposite, if we simply caricature it,

it's going to have more of a fallout under their side because they are going to encounter people that, you know, the person that holds that view isn't going to match up to the caricature that we presented, that's going to cause all kinds of other problems. Yeah, so listen, Christian educators and future Christian educators, like, it's very possible to do what we're talking about here, right? Like, as even as you're saying, I'm putting a little curriculum together in my mind, and I've been doing this, like, why not? Why can't my 10th grader or my 11th grader have it be part of their curriculum somewhere that there's that there are debates, that there's two or three debates that take place where we instead of chapel. OK, we're in chapel where we really do bring in a person that really believes these things and we create a safe environment for them to share their beliefs

and why they think the way that they do. You know, like, why wouldn't we do that? Well, because we're afraid. Well, what are we afraid of? Like you said, we're afraid maybe that somebody would, I don't know, start to believe what they believe or that it would be more compelling than our worldview. And if that's

true then we haven't done a good job representing our view look the truth is the truth let the evidence just air the evidence air the evidence if you've taught your kids how to think and you've rooted them in a christian worldview then they will be able to see oh you know what this very kind generous atheist uh his evidence actually doesn't match up if if they can't do that then i would say let's go back to the drawing board maybe we haven't educated them in a way that's going to be effective what else are we going to talk about man we should we yeah i love this and again this is kind of a it can be tiresome i know it can be for people because people go around in circles about this.

And I guess we maybe should have said this even better at the beginning. Like I really believe, and obviously you do too, that any of the three of these options is a legitimate option depending on your kid. Okay. In spite of some people who say there's only one right way. I just don't know. I don't believe that it's not, that's not what experience teases out. It's just not, it's not true. Like any of these three options can be good. But as I said, any of these three options also have some real negatives to them that we need to check and correct when we're in position to do so, you know? So I love the idea and I'm kind of up to my neck right now and just thinking about because I'm teaching this this class at this Christian school like what would it take to

produce a different outcome in these kids lives which is much easier said I mean we can talk about this for half an hour here but then the whole question is like what are you up against and actually trying to bring about those different end results? And I would get discouraged really quickly because I just think there's such a stronghold where, again, this isn't true everywhere, but in the three or four Christian schools that I've been associated with since I was younger, like the people that are there, they're there because they don't really want all those things we just talked about. Like they do want their kids to be separated from those kids and from that teaching and from the rest of the world. And they pay big money to, to keep their kids, they think isolated. So that's the other kind of hypocritical irony is there's just as much

horrible things going on amongst our kids in these Christian settings as there are would be in the in the in the public school setting only here they hide it here they again they learn how to hide it you don't have to hide things so much in the public school setting because it's understood and acted and uh, but here you learn how to hide, you learn how to, how to cover, you learn how to not let anybody know that you're struggling with sexual sin, that you're, you're struggling with, you know, whatever the different moral checklist issues are that we've all said, we're not going to do even be able to come here. You know, we've signed a document saying that we're going to be this kind of person while we're here and then we wake up and realize that we're not that person what are

you going to do you got to start faking it um okay so which yeah that which is incredibly dangerous i mean again i would when it's much more clear clearly black and white or christian non-christian at a public school, that's almost better in many ways than being in a Christian environment where everything's just kind of gray, like you don't know who's real, who's not. And you're kind of taught to put on this shell of Christianity and then still live the way you want to live, which again is an unintentional way of fostering hypocrisy. But anyway. It is. And then, and then, well, let me just want to say one more thing.

Like here again is the crazy irony of it is that you pay, you know, thousands of dollars because you want to protect your kid from humanistic thinking. Okay. Because you want your kid to wind up walking with God when he or she is 23 years old. But my fear is that what ends up happening is you pay all this money to go to a Christian school. And because of the life that's cultivated or the version of Christianity that winds up being cultivated there is that most

kids graduate from that and they don't want to have anything to do with it. They don't want that. They don't want to live under the binds of legalism. They know there's something wrong with this kind of hiding that they've been, again, if not overtly, at least they've been covertly or by implication, they're being taught that they can't sin, that they can't have brokenness, that they can't be vulnerable because there's consequences for that. And so they reject what they think is the faith when they go to the school. And some of them go to a Christian school, but then they graduate from there. And I'm saying at some point, do they ever really, do they live, do they really want to live the Christian faith? Or do they really just want to get the heck away from this version that's been given given them and they just kind of passively wander through life wow yeah i know those are so so bottom line i think you and i are 100%

in agreement on this that there is no magic. There is no one way to do education. And again, just to bring it back to what I said earlier, all forms of education are still under the larger rubric or umbrella of discipleship. You send your kids to Christian school, you still need to disciple your kids in the pros and cons of that avenue. You want to homeschool? It's great. You still need to disciple your kids in the pros and the cons of that environment same thing with public school yep that that really is it that's where we started the whole thing and again the warning may be that we don't spend enough time on the cons because we've spent so much time and energy trying to validate why we picked the option we picked it we don't really want to see the cons well no there's cons in there's cons in all three of them and it's a better education if we're really willing to

acknowledge that and address them early on yeah so it's a good it's a good exhortation cool let's move on what else are we talking about man yeah yeah we spent 33 minutes on education so let's uh let's talk about something else well nope nobody's listening now we just offended the whole world we just offended everybody in all three camps because you've got to pick a camp and you've got to validate that camp so nobody's even listening we can talk about whatever we want now that's that's scary i thought about if we if we start talking about you yeah go ahead i thought about you this week along the lines of some of the gender controversy that you find yourself enmeshed in because there's been i don't know if you've seen any of this but there's been a

big uh brouhaha between the boy scouts of america and the girl scouts of America and the Girl Scouts. And apparently the Girl Scouts are suing the Boy Scouts because the Boy Scouts made an adjustment under pressure that they were getting from sort of the feminist voices in our culture to expand their offerings and not just limit the Boy Scouts of America to boys, gender-identified boys, because the Eagle Scout badge actually includes better leadership opportunities. What you need to do to get that badge offers more leadership opportunities than what the Girl Scouts has to offer.

So the Boy Scouts started allowing girls to participate, and so now the Girl Scouts are mad because now they're facing competition from the Boy Scouts for girls. So, yeah, as I was on the elliptical machine listening to some commentary on that this week, I just thought, I wonder what Preston's thinking about all this, if you had even heard about it. about all this if you had even heard about it, but whether you had or hadn't, just the confusion that we've created amongst ourselves as we continue to erase lines, sort of historical gender lines that have been laid down. In the name of tolerance, which is a word that you and I both fully embrace and value, in the name of being open to people and to differences. Like what happens when we go so far, though, that we erase any lines of sanity whatsoever, and you wind up in a place where the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are suing each other over girls?

But what are your, you actually told me earlier that you hadn't heard about that. But what are you thinking when you hear me describe what's going on there? Oh, gosh. So, yeah, just for the record, I have not read the actual controversy, so I'm just going to go on your summary. So if you're not summarizing it correctly, that's on you, not me. But I guess i'm confused isn't isn't the boy scouts limited to boys i mean isn't that intrinsically what it means to be a boy

scout like i don't i don't know anymore that That's the whole point. But you're not... So I do know the controversy that went back a few months ago, maybe a year ago, about whether you base Boy Scout or Girl Scout on biological sex or gender identity. So it was more of a kind of a trans conversation. So that if you have a biological male who... Or sorry, a biological female who identifies as as a as a boy then the boy scout should be open to that you're talking about non-trans identified peoples so that yes boy scout should be open to girls which to me just that just doesn't that's like i mean that's

like saying how come i was gonna think of an analogy and it fell apart. That's just not – that's like saying, hey, I want to play football too, but I want to bring my baseball bat and my glove. It's like, well, that's just – that's not football. Like it's called football because there's certain things that constitute what it means to be playing football. And you can't just say I'm going to bring my Speedo and my diving board or whatever and say, but I still want to be playing football. It's like, well, that's not, it's just not intrinsic to what football is.

So I don't, that just doesn't make sense. I mean, if you want to make it just scouts, then call it scouts. But if you call it Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, then you should have boys and girls there. I think the trans identified thing is a different conversation about the relationship

between sex and gender identity. I still think that's a whole, that's kind of a different conversation about the relationship between sex and gender identity i still think that's a that's a whole that's kind of a different conversation but you're saying that female i natal females natal females who identify as females should be allowed to be part of boy scouts so to me that just doesn't that maybe i'm missing something there the one. The one piece I do resonate with is if there are better opportunities in Boy Scouts than in Girl Scouts, that's not right. Like we should have equal opportunities for leadership, for whatever in, in both Boy and Girl Scouts. But I don't think the answer would be to say, now girls should be allowed in Boy Scouts and keep the name Boy Scouts. I would say, let's just have better leadership programs in Girl Scouts. I have to be missing something because this just doesn't...

Well, you don't have to be missing something. That's the whole point. That's the sort of insanity of the place we've gotten to. So to be fair, it's because of opportunities that were being afforded under the badge of Eagle Scout that are not available in Girl Scouts, okay? So to use your sports analogy, it would be like a bunch of baseball players coming to the football game and bringing their bats and gloves and everything,

but saying, we don't get to kick field goals in our sport. And we want to be able to kick field goals. And you get to do that over here in football. And so, well, that's what's being argued for. The football players are saying, well, you can't. Like, you can't do that and be a baseball player. You have to come over here and be a football player. So what Boy Scouts did is they did change their name, Preston.

They changed it to Scouts BSA. They made it more generic. and they changed it to scouts bsa they made it more generic and i'm assuming what that means is scouts as part of the boy scouts of america um and i don't know whether this is like now a separate offshoot i haven't dug into it deep enough but but the point is when when you push sometimes what do they always say be careful what you hope for because you just may get it um in the name of wanting to have other opportunities what's having to happen is to to do away with these gender distinctions that have always traditionally helped us understand the difference between boys and girls yeah and it Yeah, if you want to call it scouts

and say it's now co-ed, fine, if that's what you want to do. But I don't think it's intrinsically wrong to have sex-segregated social environments. You know, I'm trying to think of an analogy. Are there any, on the opposite end, sex-segregated social environments for females or for... I mean, let's just stick to male-female.

I was going to go ethnicity, but I think that's just a whole nother conversation. Oh, yeah. I mean, as a guy, I'm not... There's certain things that girl, you know, if, if, if in a church context, if women want to have a women's Bible study, I don't see that as unhelpfully discriminatory. And vice versa. I just, I don't know. But I mean, we're dealing with a significant clash of worldviews because I, you know, as a Christian, I believe that God created humans in His image, and part of what it means to be created in His image is to be sexed as male or female.

And let's just leave aside the intersex conversation, because that's just going to take us in a different direction. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think the fact that men and women are different, which is just a scientific observation, let alone a theological assumption. I think that's a beautiful thing. Now, in history, have those differences been used to oppress? Absolutely. Absolutely. But the answer is not to do away with difference because that just – again, you'd have to – that's like denying science. It's denying truth in order to solve a problem. I just don't think denying truth or denying science is the way to solve the problem. So when there's oppression based on differences, you address the oppression based on differences. You don't try to ignore the differences.

That's just – I don't see that as helpful at all. based on differences. You don't try to ignore the differences. That's just, I don't see that as helpful at all. Well, and I think that it has something to do with opportunities also in that the, the, the, like I said, the Eagle Scout merits qualification involved experiences and, and opportunities that, that the Girl Scouts do not offer. So wouldn't one alternative also be to offer those things within the Girl Scouts? And I think, again, I don't want

to, I'd say the same thing. I haven't dug into it deep enough to know for sure the details on this. Maybe somebody that's listening will, will, you know, be able to help us in social media. But I believe that some of the things that were being offered in Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts thought about offering, but most girls don't want to do those things. It's a minority of girls that actually want to pursue the things that are being offered under the Eagle Scout badge. they'll want to pursue the things that are being offered under the Eagle Scout badge. Yeah. So, so here you're,

you're, you're buddied your head up against science again, because men, males and females are generally okay. Generally different. Most, more than 50% of boys, males will prefer rough and tumble play over,

you know, more relational or social kind of games or interests or whatever. Now, when a girl actually likes rough and tumble play over um you know more relational or social kind of um games or interests whatever now when a girl actually likes rough and tumble play that doesn't mean she's not a girl it just means she is has a minority experience in terms of the you know larger category of of being a female most boys are i mean just physically taller and stronger than girls now there are some girls in Sweden that are probably taller than some guys in Nepal. We're talking about generalities. But that just is what it is. That's not good or bad or right or wrong. It's just that is just

the out, that's just hormones and science and biology that produce these generalities. So if you don't like the generalities and you say, no, I think the things that Boy Scouts do should be exactly the same as girls and vice versa, then that's fine. You will have a lower turnout because of science. And you could do that, but then don't... It's like that's just is what it is. And so you have to live with that.

You can't bemoan the fact that, oh, gosh, how come more girls don't want to come to a wrestling match or whatever that we now have in the Girl Scouts because boys have it and we need to do the same thing. It's like, well, yeah, you will have a lower turnout because of science and partly because of society. I think society does reinforce some scientific truths. But that's, yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the baseball player who wants to kick field goals. Well, I want to kick field goals too. It's like, well, that's not part of baseball. I mean, you can do that.

There's nothing wrong with it. You want to do that? Fine. Come be a football player too or whatever. But, I mean, you can't just protest things that are intrinsic to the thing that we're talking about. I don't know. Maybe I'm going to take it to the thing that we're talking about i don't know maybe i'm gonna take it maybe i really maybe i really am a nazi i don't know well you're gonna sound like one you could definitely get some feedback to that end and i totally agree with what you're saying you know so what do people really want i mean i just keep thinking about this i think I may have even said this to you last time we talked like, like love wins in the end, you know, like what people really,

really want is to be loved and to be appreciated for how God has intrinsically made them. And they want to be valued and all those kinds of words. And just, you know, the human experiment, we've all done a lousy job of that. We just have men haven't done a good job of, of valuing and affirming women and women have not done a good job of valuing and affirming men along the way. And so all of this winds up being a reaction to just bad behavior amongst all of us, you know? Um, and I don't, I don't mean to oversimplify it. I i mean for heaven's sakes i'm a culture studies guy i get the complications but just it just didn't even moving forward and not needing to fight down into all the the details of this what people really want is to be loved

let's love better in this maybe this circles back even to our whole christian school thing like the last thing that i want to see produced in any of our schooling options for our kids turn out to be better haters you know they they come out and they're better they're better at being mean to each other on social media when what the world always needed and still needs even more now is just to have better lovers i can't even believe i'm saying that friends of mine would be like what are you talking about i don't usually talk that way but that is what we need we need love we need love my do i sound who i sound like what was his name louis pascalia what was that guy's name? The Love Doctor? Oh, God. Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah. You're on your own, man. You're on your own. I'm not going to... Nobody's listening. I got no life wrapped up in a throw you, man. Sorry. I'll let you swim out there.

That sells books. I need to write a love book, man. Everybody loves to buy love books. It's just sad. a love book, man. Everybody loves to buy love books. It's just sad. The love book. We're losing our minds, man. Do you follow politics much? I mean, there's stuff going on in the White House.

Is Trump in the process of being impeached or is going to be impeached or not going to be impeached? The tribalism just keeps getting more and more polarized. It's just here. Okay. Here, here's something I want to throw out to you. I, for years was critical of this sort of, and I'm going to say this and you know exactly what I'm talking about, quote unquote, Fox news Christianity. Okay. And for several years, I would take pop shots at that. You know, you, you know. Christians get more of their worldview from Fox News this, Fox News that. And I knew what I was saying, but I didn't know the landscape of society or politics as well as I do now. So now I try to pay attention to various news outlets or even cultural authorities, celebrities, Hollywood, Twitter, social media sites that are radically left.

And now I step back and say, well, wait, wait, hold the phone for a second. Yes, Fox News is on the right. Is everybody else in the middle? Let's just take Hollywood, which is way more influential than any news outlet. Are you allowed to be on the right publicly in Hollywood? I don't think you are. I just don't. I mean, maybe there are a few closeted people who have conservative views. views but hollywood which has way more influence on people's thinking than i mean all the other

news outlets combined is on the is radically on the left most other news outlets are radically on on the left so i don't know i i just i don't could that tilt in the far left direction didn't that i mean hadn't hasn't that produced something like a Fox News? I say, wait a minute, who's representing the right? In a helpful, truth-seeking society, we shouldn't have these sort of extremes on both sides. So I still kind of want to critique Christians who have the worldview that's more shaped by Fox News and the Bible. I still want to maintain that critique, but I'm going to say we all have that tendency. We cannot simply gather our Christian ways of thinking from any particular outlet. We need to be very aware of all the biases, which everything, almost everything is biased in one direction or another.

Am I speaking nonsense? Help me out here. I don't think so. Well, you and I talked about this last time. I can't remember whether we recorded this or it was just another conversation we had. But if we're talking from a Christian perspective, then we should really all be constantly seeking a third lens through which to view everything. Like you really can't align yourself with Fox news alone. You can't align yourselves with CNN or whatever liberal, more liberal leaning, um,

content provider that we want to pick. You can't because of what you just said. Like they, they all have a polarized agenda. They're all being significantly motivated by a particular financial base okay yeah um and and so ultimately and ultimately they don't have god's kingdom values at heart anyways so gosh are we going to keep going back to the christian school thing or back to the schooling thing like this is why being able to be a critical thinker actually is really hugely valuable for the next 50 years of life because um life under the sun is going to continue to provide skewed views of reality and christians should be some of the best

thinkers of all because they don't align themselves with these with these polar positions they actually transcend those and are trying to mash together truth that comes from both again i think we fail miserably at it because we fall right in line with with one extreme or the other and we're not trying to look at things through a kingdom lens or assume that that fox news is a kingdom lens or CNN actually is a kingdom lens. Well, that's not the case at all. And we don't do a good job of it, Preston. We just don't. It takes work to stay above it and not just to lazily align ourselves with one side or the other.

And I'm not even thinking primarily from a – yeah, obviously I affirm everything you're saying, but I'm even thinking just from a raw social or cultural perspective. I mean, let's just pretend like we're not even Christians right now, just analyzing society. Okay. I just – yeah. It's just things are becoming so increasingly

tribal and when one tribe critiques the other side for being tribal or being biased or whatever it's like it's just so hypocritical it's just the virtue signaling it is it just drives me crazy yeah it's a constant catch 22 because they are

moving further and further away from each other. And I guess this is the question I wind up asking myself is, what do you really want if you're on one side or the other? Like, what are you really after? And I keep coming back to this idea, this phrase of ideological warfare. Like, I want to win. I want my side to be the predominant way that life under the sun is structured, that society is structured, and I want to win. I want my side to be the predominant way that life under the sun is structured,

that society is structured, and I want to win. And that's a really crass way of saying it, but that is what people are after. They want to win. They want their side, their right side. I don't mean ideologically right. I just mean the just side in in their mind the right side to be the way everybody organizes themselves i think those who are who are who are leading these power structures absolutely want to win and i think the masses can be swept up in that battle but i think at the end of the day i do think there is a i'm just going to say a hungry, silent majority that is more centrist, that just they want to hear kind of both sides and make up their own minds. I mean, I've been fascinated that apparently, I don't have the facts to back this up in front of me, but like traditional news outlets are losing ratings like crazy, like the viewership is going way down. And a lot of people are turning to more free platforms in the sense

that they're just individuals talking like through podcasts like this. I mean, or even like, okay, so for instance, the average CNN interview might get like a million views from what I hear. Again, I haven't like double checked the analytics or anything, but they may get like a million views. Joe Rogan, in his podcast, will get 6 to 10 million views. Now, I don't know if you've listened to Joe Rogan yet, but he has no filter, no control. He has nobody breathing down his neck. He's not going to lose his job if he says something that is radically politically offensive. He doesn't care because he knows that the average person actually just wants people to be able to talk out loud, think out loud, and not have some tribe overseeing them

that's going to control whatever they can say or doesn't say. Because the traditional outlets of where most people are getting their information are so tribally controlled that they're not allowed to think outside of their tribe but there's a lot of these other average or think about like a jordan peterson why you know he's been in over 100 cities this year filling you know massive crowds listening to him. He said he spoke to over 250,000 people live in the last 11 months, and he's only encountered one person that was kind of like a heckler or was really angry at him. Even though if you look at social media or whatever, you get the impression that, oh, everybody hates him.

He has these few radical right-wing followers or something. It's just insane. My only point is, I think if you just get off social media, get offline, get off traditional news outlets, if you just leave all that aside and just talk to the average person on the street, look at society just for what it is. I think there is this hungry majority that is tired of the ideological tribalism. That's what I'm trying to say. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think that's a great sentence, first of all. I think it's a great sentence.

Yeah, you know I agree with you, man. It took me 10 minutes to come up with it. No, and you and I, this is probably going to be the thing we end up talking about the most even as god gives us time together in the future just because i resonate so much with that idea i i agree with you and again to sell my love wins book i think people want to be loved they want peace you know they peace. They just want to be able to get on in life and do well with whatever that means and be with their families and get along. I totally agree with that. The whole sin thing creates a lot of problems, doesn't it?

And so things are broken. And, you know, it's interesting, even though when you mentioned the jordan peterson like but that becomes sort of a new tribe that's the unfortunate thing is like how do you how do you resist becoming a new tribe i don't know we're not going to get into that right now but and even to be fair to the outlets themselves and i agree people are just sick of it they're sick of the polarization they're also sick of feeling manipulated or feeling like they're they're getting these edited and overly mediated versions of the news yeah but the reality is those channels exist because of money you know like somebody they need money to be able to do what they're doing. So we can get into the old capitalist discussion. They need money to exist.

And so they wind up feeling pressure to cater to the source of their money. They're afraid to go away from that because if they lose money, then they no longer exist. I mean, Christian organizations feel that same tension. So I get that. But I'm just going to say to us again, as Christians, like, I feel like people should be able to find that same middle from

people who identify as Christians. Like we of all people should have a worldview that's able to appreciate everything you just described and live that out. And it should be super attractive to people that there's a different way of doing life that is not found at these extremes that's what jesus's invitation is to people that i've given i've come that you might have life and might have it abundantly like that still plays pretty well today when people get a real taste of it and i know you didn't want to keep coming back to that, but I guess that's just where my mind keeps going. Like that, there,

there, that is the third way. That is the same, the same middle, if you will. It's found somewhere in the kingdom of God, I think. Well,

that's why, you know, even the concept like kingdom of God is a political, social, um, identity so that the kingdom of God, let's just say the big C global church, however you want to word it, even your local church, we should be embodying a different way, a different polis, a different city, a different society.

We're not just citizens who go to church on Sunday, we are creating an alternative, prophetically critical society that embodies a better way. A better way of living, a better way of conversing, a better way of educating, a better way of sharing our funds, a better way of listening, a better way of humbly dialoguing, a better way of debating and disagreeing. humbly dialoguing, a better way of debating and disagreeing. These are all kind of social values that the non-kingdom of God, the kingdoms of this world are trying to do, but are failing at. And I think in this day and age, it's so crystal clear that they're failing on both sides. That this is a golden opportunity for the church to step up and rather than attaching themselves to one tribe or the other, and I'm saying this 50% equally to those who are left-leaning and right-leaning. I'm seeing it just as much on left-leaning Christians as right-leaning Christians. I think sometimes we keep criticizing

right-leaning Christians, but just as rather than aligning ourselves with these polarizing social options out there, we should be embodying the way of Jesus and showing the world how it's done in a sense. Gosh, Preston, I just think that's a message that is worth saying over and over again, even though it's, again, it almost feels cliche and it feels like everybody already knows that. Well, I don't know whether people know it or not,

but we're not doing it very well. So here's what I'm thinking, even as you say all that, like when I think about trying to change the, the, the political world or the, you know, the larger landscape of what goes on on this planet, it's completely overwhelming. I can't do much with that. When I think about the church, which is a subset of all that, that's just as overwhelming. Like what influence can I really have on the overall church? And what does that even mean? Again, because that's just such a broad and diverse thing. Just a subset of that is the evangelical world. Can I really influence the evangelical world? Maybe a little bit more. You know, you have some platform to influence

historic evangelical thinking. But if I keep going down the funnel, like I really can control my sphere of influence, you know, my small group of people that I have conversation with. And I can certainly do something about myself. Like it comes all the way back down to me. I maybe can't fix the macro problem, but I can certainly choose to live differently today. macro problem, but I can certainly choose to live differently today. I can choose to write differently online. I can choose to respond differently to people that get angry with me. I, I can choose to love people that I can't stand. Okay. And there's a list right now, right? I can make a difference by walking with God today. Again, cliche as that sounds. And that can make all the difference in the world that the people that bump into me today

can get a different view of the Christian faith and what it means to live out kingdom principles. I can, each day is a new opportunity to do that well, which is exciting to me. Like that feels a lot less overwhelming, even though controlling myself is enough of a task as it is, you know, and doing the right thing. But even having the opportunity to repent and ask for forgiveness is so refreshing and freeing that I don't have to be

perfect in my attempts to do this. But I can step into each day trying. That's exciting to me. It is. But I can step into each day trying. That's exciting to me. It is. That's going to excite you. You've got a gazillion people to respond to every day. And you can choose to respond to them differently than what's happening on most platforms. So what you're saying is we should start by looking at the man in the mirror.

Ooh, that could be a song right there we could steal that from mj honestly going back well that's exactly what jordan peterson actually talks about i mean he he he's i mean he's he says everything that you just said about how you know to rather than being outraged at all those bad people out there and all those destructive ideologies, why don't you begin with all the junk that's in your own heart, begin there, and then move out towards, you know, helping society. I mean, it's just, it's such a basic spiritual biblical concept. He just, I mean, he, you know, he's just making a simple psychological observation. And he's making crazy money off of it what how much am i getting paid to have just said that are you what are you are you sending me

anything for this we need to see if we can get some money from jordan peterson we're we're expanding his brand for him today the average that seriously that's what's funny if you're a new york times best-selling author which his book was number one for for some reason, I think it's because it's a Canadian publisher. It didn't make the New York Times bestseller. There's some weird thing there. But either way, his book was the number one selling book for several months, I think. I think it was number one on Amazon, which to put that in perspective, you have like, you know, um, Jordan Peterson's book, the number two, you have like the Bible and the number three. I mean, it's like, that's

insane out of the 4 million books at Amazon that his was number like literally number one. If you're in the top 100, you're typically New York times bestseller. Um, to the average, uh, price for a New York times bestselling author to speak is $50,000 a pop. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So I'm the world's most underpaid New York Times bestselling speaker. Well, maybe you need to jack your prices up a little bit.

I'm sure that conversation is happening. Oh, no, no. Well, it really is interesting, Preston. Again, I'm not trying to dog on Jordan Peterson, but this happens in every generation and like every decade, you know, that voices pop up that for such a time as this, God allows them to basically capitalize on truths that have been around for millennia, right?

Like back to your original point i do think people are desperate for it they don't know how to find it and and they get in the way like i get in the way of finding what i'm really after because of my own sin and my own selfishness and you know the junk that i bring to the table but gosh everybody, everybody has always wanted what Jordan Peterson's making money off of right now. And that is somebody just to remind us of the simple truths that our hearts yearn for. And that, again, for our money, the only place they really are going to be resolved is at the cross, you you know that there aren't other world views that encompass the totality of what our hearts are after the same way that the

the same way the purely the purity of the gospel offers us so or the gospel in its purest form i mean yeah so good that's good i gotta go all right what are we doing it let's do it again sometime let's see if any maybe maybe everybody will say that was don't ever do that again and we won't and we'll just have to talk on the phone to each other but i would love to hear this so so you so i have a my degree my phd's in New Testament and early Judaism, some more Bible history, Bible backgrounds. Yours is in American studies, some more contemporary culture. So I think you bring something that I don't. I bring something that you don't, although you also have a master's degree from Trinity in theology.

from Trinity and theology. So, um, but, uh, yeah, I would love to know from my audience, like, what would you love to hear you and I talking about? And we, we may get crickets, like now you two just need to shut up. And I'm, I'm, I'm very okay with that. Uh, but I would, I'd be curious with, with, with the kind of different experiences and perspectives, is there something that, um, that we're not hitting on that people would love to think, man, I would love to hear you guys address this or that. So I'll just throw it out there. You guys know how to get ahold of me. You can email chris at prestonsprinkle.com. That's C-H-R-I-S at prestonsprinkle.com. If there's anything you would love to hear in the future, Ed and I, to talk about, then yeah yeah shoot us an email ed where

can people reach you again if people are listening to that they didn't hear your previous episode that we talked that you're on a few months ago uh what do you do for a living how can people reach you can they read more stuff from you or listen to you speak how can they get more of Ed Yuzinski? Well, you know, I've been on, I've been living on Twitter a little bit the last six months. And so at Yuzinski32, so that's a good place. And then my email is ed.yuzinski at crew.org, C-R-U.org. And actually quite a few people poked at me last time we talked. I'm not even sure where they got it from maybe you mentioned it last time uh i still work with athletes in action primarily um and so you can also find writing a whole bunch of writing there from the last three years at the

athletes in action.org website and uh very open to interacting with anybody about anything like you said preston um that's awesome man love talking about all these things we just talked about and a lot more so i'd be i'd be curious to see what people are thinking as well let me throw this out there you're not you're not paying me to say this and you may not even want me to say it but i went to church with ed is years ago um and he was one of the preaching elders there and ed is an incredible communicator uh he's as you know he's not very good on the podcast but in terms of life in terms of live preaching or talking you you speak for family life too right you do conferences, like marriage conferences.

You've been doing that for years, right? Yeah. For the last 13, 14 years, my wife Amy and I have spoken at, I don't know, three, four, five Weekend to Remember conferences a year, which that's worth checking out too. If you're not familiar with Family Life Ministry, their Weekend to Remember conference is just an excellent way to invest in your marriage and just to get away for a weekend and like talk to each other and see each other. And yeah, and I'm open to, like I said, like you said, I'm not sure why you just brought that up, but I'm certainly open to being a help in any way I can.

If you've got a communication situation, I'd love to do Bible teaching. I'd love to do retreats. And so very open to that. If people have needs out there. That's exactly why I brought it up. Because I think, again, we live in a celebrity driven culture where, and I don't know how to get around, I don't think you can get around it. But when churches or conferences or denominations or colleges or seminaries are looking to bring in a speaker, they typically think, who's the big name? Who has a platform? Who has a megachurch? And you and I both know, and most of my audience probably would agree with this, that just because you have a platform doesn't mean you're the most thoughtful communicator or even a very great communicator just means you got a platform.

And typically people, platforms are thoughtful in some way or whatever, but I just, I more and more, I just see, I don't know, like lack of depth, lack of provocation. Is that a word? Provocation? Lack of prophetic guts to talk about certain things in a certain way. And so all of that goes away with you. I mean, you're willing to talk about whatever and do so in an incredibly thoughtful, effective, dynamic way. You're not just a talking head.

I mean, you're an incredibly good communicator just as a communicator. So yeah, if you guys are looking for somebody to cover a wide range of stuff, look up Ed. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And, you know, it's interesting. We could talk about this next time if we wind up getting it next time. It's just the effect of celebrity. I mean, you can still say that about me because I'm not a celebrity. Because I don't have to worry about a particular book buying base or, you know, like you say, a tribe out there.

And it's, yeah, there's lots of people like me out there. But then once you do become a celebrity, because you hit on a book, or, you know, you become a platform speaker that everybody knows, it gets more difficult to continue to maintain a prophetic voice and to not worry about offending people. And I mean, I feel that even a little bit for you. You've got a good crowd that listens to this podcast. And so you've, fortunately, you've set yourself up in a way where you say right up front, theology in the raw is going to be, is trying to allow for voices and thoughts that might be perceived as offensive to different groups. I mean, you just say that up front. So that gives you some more latitude to to be able to do that. Yeah, it's sort of attached to your brand, if you will.

But doggone it, once you get some measure of fame or celebrity, or, you know, book publishers start to have expectations for you i think that changes the game for people yeah yeah and i don't have that i'm just a schmuck so yeah if you're just looking for a schmuck that'll come and do something for less than 50 grand i'm your guy so you still owe me about a 25 cut for that advertisement. Anything that comes in through Theology of the Raw. Exactly. Of the $500 they're going to offer for me to come and do four talks for the weekend,

I'll give you something from that. You got a few more minutes? I got a question. What do you think about how should people think about what to pay people to come in and speak? Have you ever thought about that? Oh, yeah. I have. about how should people think about what to pay people to come in and speak have you ever thought about that oh yeah i have i think we should save that one because actually i'm late for another meeting okay you gotta go all right so obviously you can edit this out let's now write that down i think that's a great conversation actually that one in the celebrity like that that could be an

interesting yeah so have i i've had lots of conversations about it i really i really feel like we could tease that out and yeah and uh again maybe tie it into the whole celebrity and fame and and should that even be a category for people who identify as as christian servants and christian prophets you know for for lack of a better word i could see both it's hard for me to talk about because I do, and you do too. You get paid to speak and it's kind of an awkward thing to talk about. Well, and you're making, your livelihood is attached to it. It's your vocation.

So that adds a whole nother dimension. It's one thing when you do some other kind of work and you get paid for that and you just happen to be a great speaker. when you do some other kind of work and you get paid for that and you just happen to be a great speaker and so people bring you in that there's not as much pressure you know to provide out of that so i don't get i don't get ticked when my christian dentist sends me a bill for pulling my tooth i mean right you know but well we take advantage of each other in an awful way in Christian circles when it comes to people's gifting and the talent and skill skills that have been honed over time I don't think we value that in the same way that the secular world does and we should I mean we want it we like you said we want the big name to

come in because that's good for us but we don don't always want to pay money to them to do it. Again, let's talk about that another time. You're going to get me rolling on that. I got to go. Take care, bro. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to Theology in the Raw. We'll see you next time on the show.