Theology in the Raw - 719: #719 - A Conversation with Andrew Wilson

Episode Date: January 14, 2019

On episode #719 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Dr. Andrew Wilson. Andrew has a PhD in Theology, has written numerous books and regularly blogs at thinktheology.co.uk Follow Dr. Wilson on Twitter. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I've got a whole bunch of events going on in the spring. Let me tell you about a few of these. In particular, I want to highlight a dialogue that Justin Lee and I are going to be having on March 10th in Los Altos, California at Spark Church. It's called Sexuality, Scripture, and the Soul. This is going to be a, hopefully a very engaging, provocative, hopefully thoughtful, and very humble conversation between myself and Justin Lee. Justin is a gay affirming Christian and author, a speaker. He's been, well, he founded the Gay Christian Network, which has recently changed its name. He's been doing this stuff for many, many years. He's a thoughtful guy. He is a gracious guy. And I think he and I are going to have a great conversation.

We also disagree rather significantly on some super important questions like the meaning of marriage and whether same-sex relationships are intended by God to be a valid expression of sexuality or not. So it's going to be a great event. Again, it's at Spark Church. If you go to www.sparkchurch.com forward slash sexuality, scripture, soul, or if you just go to the Spark Church website, you can find the event page there. And you do have to sign up. Registration begins, I believe, tomorrow, I think it opens. Now, for my Patreon supporters, this event is completely free. So if you are a Patreon supporter

or you want to be a Patreon supporter, then you can go to my Patreon page and I have posted the access code for that free registration for the Justin Lee event on March 10th. Again, it's at Spark Church. So SparkChurch.com. I'm also going to be in Edmonton, Canada for the Breakforth Women Conference, January 25th, 27th. I'll be in Sioux City, Iowa for two events on February 4th, February 5th. Grand Rapids, Michigan for a one-day leaders forum on February 7th. Orange County on February 11th and February 12th for two different events there.

Seattle, Washington, March 12th. Salem, Oregon, March 14th. Cleveland, Ohio, April 23rd. And I'll be at the Q Conference in Nashville on April 24th, 26th. So check out my website, PresidentsSpringgold.com or CenterForFaith.com and go to the events page for information on one of these events or all these events. If you want to attend them all, you want to go on tour, come on tour with me, then you'd be hearing a lot of the same stuff over and over. But hey,

be fun to hang out. So PrestonSpringgold.com, the events page, check it out. Okay. For today's podcast, I have my good friend and somebody that I just admire so much. And that is pastor, author, Dr. Andrew Wilson. Andrew Wilson is a pastor. He's a scholar. He's been pastoring for a number of years in the UK. He's an incredibly thoughtful guy. He's a podcaster.

He's a blogger. And I am so excited to have Andrew on the show. We talk a lot about the charismatic gifts. He is, again, one of the most thoughtful guys I've ever met. So I think he gives one of, if not the best sort of defenses of a continuationist position, namely that all the gifts are for today. And I think he lives it out in a really great way. He knows about some of the abuses that are going on in those circles, and yet he's not willing to set aside scripture because some good things have

been abused. So please welcome to the show back by popular demand, Dr. Andrew Wilson. okay we are back on theology in the raw thanks so much for tuning in i am here as you have just heard with my good friend uh from a distance, Dr. Andrew Wilson. Andrew, thank you so much for being on Theology on the Raw for the second time. Thank you so much. Do you call yourself Dr. Preston Sprinkled?

I do not. I never know what ever calls me doctor. It makes me feel like a Star Trek character. I know, right? Well, but, you know, my kids remind me, you know, Daddy, you're not a real doctor, you know, because I can't heal their illnesses or whatever. I'm like, well, I don't know. I could pray over you, you know. It is something like that.

I get that all the time. Yeah. But, yeah, so generally avoid it. But, yeah, it's good to be with you. So let's just dive in. Give us a little bit of background about yourself. I mean, you're a pastor. You're a scholar.

You're obviously British. Give us a background. I guess, how about this? Why don't you bend your testimony toward just that vocational calling that you have of being both a scholar and a pastor? But you know, we'd love to get a piece out a little bit, but yeah, who is Andrew Wilson? but yeah so I um I was I was brought up in a Christian family and I I think I'd never a classic thing of not really ever knowing a time when I didn't believe in God but very backslidden as a teenager and at university in particular and then in my last year at university at Cambridge started coming back to God at the same time I switched my degree to theology from history so I got into the sort of academic side of it which I didn't really understand in my first year in one year of doing

it and got a degree from Cambridge in it which makes it look like you understand it but I didn't really and then soon after leaving Cambridge I started reading a lot more theology and started getting into it and begin to go oh like I kind of get this but uh and then did a master's and then wondered whether it might perhaps be the kind of thing that i should do as a career and actually had a very clear i don't know where all of your listeners are on prophetic words but it was one of those very at least in our current concept very charismatic context what i regard as a very clear prophetic word about not pursuing academia instead pursuing pastoral ministry at least at that time so i did and became a sort of a junior pastor in a large-ish

in British context largest church which I then grew up in and sort of grew in the role and was then a pastor there in a town called Eastbourne which is on the south coast of Britain for about that was just over sort of 10 years and then I started doing my PhD studies in my 30s while doing that so I did a bit of part and part and published a bit on that and did some more academic like research along with being a pastor but with quite a narrow focus actually and I found because I've been in large churches my whole ministry you can have quite a specialized teaching role and still be able to write stuff and so on yeah and then two and a half years ago I made a move to be teaching pastoral church in London which is where I'm speaking from now which is a sort of quite large multi-site uh church in Lewisham which is

sort of and Greenwich which is southeast London um and a completely different kind of environment there which has been fantastic for me but I continue to do about half my time teaching and with a little bit of pastoral stuff within the church and then half my time is writing speaking and some academic stuff actually in the wider world which is how I guess that's how you and little bit of pastoral stuff within the church and then half my time is writing speaking and some academic stuff actually in the wider world which is how i guess that's how you and i know each other probably sure yeah that's what we connected half and half ever since i don't know i think we connected maybe on social media i think it was i think it was i think it was there and then we've done several i mean i've been i've spoken at your church and we've hung out in Eastbourne,

walked along those cliffs. What's that area? That was one of the most beautiful. We just, just two days ago. Beachy Head. It is just glory. Anybody who's listening to this and you get to go to Britain. Oh, God.

And just like the chalk cliffs, the rolling hills, just glorious, isn't it? Really good. Just two days ago, my whole family was talking about. Now, my kids were like, what was that place in England? It was the cliffs and it was on the south of the coast. I'm like, oh, yeah. Your wife mentioned it on the email she sent as well. I was like, man, this has obviously made an impression.

Oh, so awesome. So you don't live in esport anymore. When I last talked to you two and a half years ago, you were commuting. I have a strange model. So this is not – now all of your Baptist friends are going to be freaking out here because of how does this work with congregational membership um I'm in a very I'm pretty much the only person I know who does this but I live in Eastbourne which is about 60 miles away and I commute up on Tuesdays and Sundays but that's based out of our personal context because

our two of our children have as you know two of our kids have special needs and it made the move for the whole family to the part of London I'm now serving in beyond us at that point. And we concluded it was the best thing was to take the, take the job to do the role. And it was a great opportunity in lots of ways. It's been really good. But on a Sunday, me and my family are in usually in different churches. I preach in Eastbourne another 12 times a year as well.

So it's not as weird as it sounds, but it is. My main role is working. The church is in a different town from where my family goes. So your family is still established in the Eastbourne church and you go up and kind of community. Okay. That's actually not as foreign in the American context. You sound like a celebrity preacher. Yeah.

It kind of flies in and flies out um but so your church in london though it's a multi it would you describe it as a as a primarily black congregation or a multi probably about seven seventy percent would be we're about a third african a third caribbean or black british and a third white or other that's basically the next um and it's which reflects the burrow like where we are in London. So if Americans have been, it's probably not quite the same, but it's a bit like as an area, it's a bit like Anacostia in DC, but probably not quite as, you know, not quite.

Our cities are a bit more white and black live alongside each other a lot in British cities, which is not always true in my experience of America. So probably a little bit less like that than perhaps in DC but not dissimilar um or you know maybe a little bit like a Harlem or something but not quite as much as that but it's that sort of equivalent in London so it's a very um you know a very predominantly black area and the church I guess reflects the borough and it's been a fantastic experience for me because it's just a very eye-opening really in terms of moving from a really quite different context and it's been a fantastic experience for me because it's just a very eye-opening really in terms of moving from a really quite different context and it's something I've had to learn and I'm still like just this afternoon in the room I'm sitting in now we were having a you know extended conversation with a number of our sort of white and black pastors talking about some of

these issues how do we help people joining from the black church better it was a it's a very regularly you know pressing and important issue for us it's very exciting actually as well what are some of the unique challenges you're facing as a pastor in a multi-ethnic church like that i'm curious if it's similar to what the american context would face i think i think there are there are loads and i think it is very different from you know the american context is obviously very different um so i wouldn't presume to know much about that um but i think the the obviously the lived experience and to some degree just the legacy of what's happened what's happened in race relations in the last 500 years to be honest and how that's washed through into into our country in britain um effectively what you know i'm sitting in a room with people thinking oh well this is what my ancestors did to your ancestors that just complicates every conversation about these

issues anyway but i think in our context um that's obviously probably not dissimilar to somewhere that would be in the states that the the implications that continues to have for the social background the you know relationship to authority figures and police and all that sort of stuff it is not i don't think it's quite the same as it is in the states but it is you know the injustice is faced by the obstacles to overcome for almost every black person in britain are just greater than those for almost every white person in britain all other things being equal and obviously there are some very you know rich and wealthy and privileged and well-educated black people and there are some very poor and marginalized and oppressed white people but

generally speaking the gap is still significant and i think working through how that works how you address that well with the gospel without being divisive but how you don't sweep it under the rug either and act as if it's not there because now we're all one and navigating that is just i think as in that sense it's the same challenge that would be throughout the western world but in our context particularly in london it's just very visible and it's all but it's also a great joy because we've just got a huge number of people who are committed to i mean we've 1500 people on a sunday or, a thousand of them look different from me or more. And there's just a huge amount of commitment and goodwill and actually sacrifice in that sense for just for me being a teaching pastor to preach to people, many of whom have historically for good reason,

associate people like me with things that are not always very good and their goodwill and commitment to work and, you you know find a way forward is just is very humbling and very powerful um so it's not like it's not all challenge it's very beautiful as well but it is you know we are i guess just daily aware with that and really my own ignorance is probably the biggest challenge you get to face isn't it yeah you go i don't know what this is like and i'm having to learn so well the fact that you're willing to admit that i mean that's pretty huge right there i mean it's it's a person that thinks to have it all figured out or is even blind I mean you even made a comment that you know you show up at church

and and with this awareness that my ancestors did this to your ancestors and a lot of people just don't have that awareness right I guess but I'm not sure i did you see so i think what i've one of the things i've been really arrested by is uh the extent to which being in a in a in a church like mine now you can't hide it you can't get away from it it's just it's really obvious and people are lovely about it but it's really obvious but of course i didn't i didn't live i didn't think i knew it it was in the vague background but I just didn't think this was an important issue when I was serving in a church in a more middle-class white town. And I think for me, that's one of the challenges I realize is, you know,

adapting to that when it's not being forced upon you by your circumstances, but it's just something you realize is part of loving your neighbor. And that could sound all very kind of all very fashionable and stuff, but I just think it's a really, it's in our context and in the UK, loving your neighbor and that could sound all very kind of all very fashionable and stuff but i i just think it's a really it's in our context and in the uk it's a very pressing issue and probably only become more so in the last two or three years partly because some of the things a lot of the things that happen in your country come across to mind in the sense of people's awareness of them and those dynamics partly because of brexit partly because of trump there are various

other things in the background that make that issue probably more pressing now than it was five years ago by some way yeah i just i feel like i'm catching up all the time i found i mean i i think well let me just say it and then i'll clarify or correct it whether or not you think it's true yeah i i just i it's see in my experience and know, obviously I'm American, but I lived in the UK for a number of years and have visited a few times for racism, like, like, you know, it seems like you would have more of that in the UK, but both kind of a concern to like be not be racist and also an awareness of race. It's just the racist roots just don't seem as as as deep as they are in America. Now, maybe I'm totally speaking out of turn. This is just my my sort of perception do you feel like you can speak to that or it's very difficult to generalize about two countries of the scale that ours are sure i guess the i i might map it in a slightly more complicated way so i suppose if you had a spectrum from very heightened aware you would

hope awareness and sensitivity through to you know it's almost explicit racism at the other end. And then a lot of people in the middle do not really think about it that much. But I think probably what you might find is that America was at the outer ends of that spectrum. So there's much more. There would be no equivalent of a state flag with a Confederate flag on it or anything remotely like that.

There's nothing of that nature. You wouldn't get away with that in britain at all but at the same time i think a lot of people in the states particularly from some you know there's large parts of the states where probably people are a lot more aware and so i've got a close american friend who lived with our family for two years and he said he really struggled when he heard pastors talking about processing the issue of race in Britain, that he felt we were way less aware than he would have expected us to be given an American education. But I think that's partly because of where he was from. I think what he's saying and what you might see in another part of the nation are both true. Because America is so big and so diverse that things could be simultaneously completely true in some of one part and totally untrue another

and I feel like Britain might get more in the middle of that spectrum and actually even as we're talking there's a huge you know race route in the country at the moment because of a racial abuse that was held at a footballer the other day and it's okay it's brought all kinds of things out into the open and basically most of my black friends going yeah this is still a huge issue this is live all the time and obviously a lot of white people going oh that's old that's old we don't have that anymore that's not an issue i don't you know what i mean i don't use obvious explicit racism and so in a way i think probably americans are both more aware and possibly less aware depending on where they

are and what their context and backstory is whereas i feel like we are kind of in the middle and that's not always a great place to be because it can mean you think you're fine and you're not. But I'm generalizing here with very little, again, ignorance. No, no. But yeah, I think it's OK to think on a 30,000 foot general level. You don't want to stay there, but I think you have to kind of start somewhere. That's yeah, that's super helpful, actually. Let's we can come back to the race conversation.

I want to I want to make sure we spend a good deal of time on charismatic gifts. So, and I, and actually we didn't mention this when we were talking before, before the recording, but I would love to also have you lay out your view on women in pastoral leadership because, well, for several reasons, I just think your perspective on both those questions, women in leadership and also charismatic gifts, I don't know the term to use. Sometimes when I use the term, people say, oh, you obviously come from this kind of tribe. I'm just using a term that comes to mind. Yeah. So just recently, you went head to head with Tom Schreiner on whether or not the gifts, all the gifts are for today or not. Can you summarize maybe your main arguments for why you would consider yourself unapologetically, you know, charismatic, you even mentioned, you know, a prophetic word that you received, you know, a few years ago. So in, you know, five minutes or less, can you just lay out your

position on why you believe what you believe? Yeah, so I would say, so I'd be, I would have, you know, charismatic with bells on at least in our context. Um, and I would, I, I would give, I guess, three main, three main kinds of argument. Okay. So the first one is, um, so the surprise of a lot of people is historical. I think the church, uh, historically the gifts did continue past the new Testament in the sense that you go through the church fathers, and it's not until you get to Augustine and Chrysostom in the late 4th and early 5th century that you get any references, really, to any of the gifts having ceased. whether they would use the word charismatic or not, they are referring to prophetic gifts and the gifts of people speaking in languages and understanding them and gifts of healing

and gifts of even raising the dead. And there would be a, you get that in Basil, you get it in Oregon, you get it in Irenaeus, you get it in an awful lot in Augustine as well, actually. Augustine's interesting because he's sort of yes on healing and no, not really on tongues tongues which makes him an interesting case but until him uh you've got this sort of almost unbroken of jerusalem you've got this almost unbroken chain of and that's a charismatic gift continuing um justin martyr right in the middle of the second

century through to augustine so um and i think the historical argument is really fascinating because generally speaking as protestants our church history starts with the reformation but when you go back behind it and you go okay well through the age of the fathers there's a lot of explicit references to the gifts um and actually if you then continue through what we would call the middle ages both early and late you would also find a lot of expectation of ongoing revelation and i'm not saying i'd agree with all of it all the methodology of the theology they drew from it would be mine certainly wouldn't um but in terms of healing and revelations through the middle ages you get an awful lot of that as well if anything to the point that you would say that's crazy and

even a modern charismatic might look at and go whoa hang on a second healed by the stigmata or the bones really you know but it's but it was very common so in a sense it's only with the reformation that you get anything that now sounds more like cessationism and that to me comes out of the reformation the historic moment that the reformers are saying we've already got some people in town who claim the ongoing validity of healings and prophecy and apostolic ministry and they're the roman catholics and that's going to open doors we don't want so you can see why We've already got some people in town who claim the ongoing validity of healings and prophecy and apostolic ministry. And they're the Roman Catholics. And that's going to open doors we don't want. So you can see why. But I think that's really the first time, other than the Montanist controversy, you know, in the sort of third century, it's the first time you get anything sounding like cessationism, really.

And so I think at a historical level, a lot of the church has been, oh, we believe in those ongoing phenomena. and we believe in the gifts until the reformation so that that's one argument and i would try and make that case that's never i've actually never i've never heard that i didn't know that to me that's quite a significant it's a significant feature and i think what happens is from the reformation onwards of course you get the double whammy where you get reformation theology distancing ourselves kind of always for good by the way and i'm not trying to say and the reformers are wrong the reformers are a lot of awful abuses of that so i'm totally with them on that but what happens is that then lines up with a you know the development of the enlightenment through the 17th and 18th and then into the 19th centuries where a much larger distinction between materialism in the

material world and spiritual world and eventually god gets booted upstairs yeah miracles become problematic for everybody in the west and the combination of protestant objections to catholic succession and that sort of thing mixed in with the enlightenment i think creates a context where it's very difficult to argue for or believe the gifts in a western protestant context but bear in mind most of our majority world brothers and sisters haven't had that issue and therefore in many parts of the world you travel it's just glaringly obvious that the gifts are for today but no one really asks um so that's one kind of argument i think a second is what i would call like a hermeneutical argument is basically when the apostle says

when paul says five times use prophecy or eagerly desire prophecy or don't ban tongues or you know but pursue prophecy or don't despise prophecy but you test everything and you get five different texts where that's said that the burden of proof is on anybody to me is just on anybody who says that's not an instruction you have to follow rather than on the person who says you should so to me the default should be if a new testament imperative is issued to churches not not to individuals on you know like go and get my coat um from troas those you know there's something like that where you go well that's obviously only for that individual but if things are written in multiple different letters to multiple different churches and they're not qualified as something by the context this is only for you and not for others then i think we just we just assume those instructions are for us

so when it says earnestly desire spiritual gifts especially prophecy and goes into three chapters worth of detail on how to do that and why then i think you go okay well i just assume that's for us then so to me that and this is with with tom shrine we had a great discussion because we're both i think quite open the burden of proof is the key here but and i think for me the burden of proof is on anyone who says this instruction is in the new testament and i'm not going to do it so do you want to give that's the second one well yeah so i've got a thousand questions what go ahead and give you a third argument and i'll try to circle back around and then the third is i suppose is eschatological which is that when the new testament talks about the age of the spirit and the age of you know your old men will see visions your young men

will dream dreams even on my servants men and women are poor on my spirit and they will prophesy that that phase in history uh or the phase of the age of the spirit in which the gifts are given seems every time the conversation comes up seems to fill the space between pentecost and parousia or between the you know the gift of the spirit and the return of christ and so when so in that famous chapter in 1 corinthians 13 which in britain as probably in america is often read at weddings um yeah you know the if i have not loved then i'm just saying that chapter of course finishes with this you know, if I have not loved, then I must be satisfied. That chapter, of course, finishes with this, you know, prophecies and tongues will cease. And in that context says, of course, when the perfect comes,

the imperfect or the partial will pass away. And when it talks about the perfect, it talks about the perfect as the return of Christ. Not the completing of the canon? Don't be such a misfit. You know perfectly well. I was told that. I was told that growing up.

And as a first-year seminary student, I just did a couple word searches. I was like, I don't think this works. I just left hermeneutics class and I learned to do word studies. And I'm applying that to this argument. It just doesn't work. Sorry, I threw you a speed boat but to be fair to be fair most of the guys who most there are plenty of good cessationists who concede that as a terrible argument okay good and i think you know and tom is like that

and richard gaffin and other some really smart cessationists who go we're not we're not going to push that but tom doesn't say that tom doesn't say that okay good oh no no in fact tom has a chapter well i love it i mean tom's book is marvelous like he this is like i wish all cessationists were like that okay he is such a great example of how to disagree well and he has a chapter in the book in which he uh goes through and says here's a bunch of bad cessationist arguments and why you shouldn't swallow them and that's one of the list so yeah he would be with you in that um but i think but you have the same thing in acts don't you in the last days i will pour out my spirit and they will prophesy and the last days is a period that as i understand the framework of biblical

chronology the last day we are and you and i both don't work on one corinthians and you know the the overlap of the ages but we are in in that sense the last days now so yeah the first century is the last days the 21st century is the last day the last days are between christ event death resurrection ascension and his second coming like those are the last days between those two events that's how i am and there are of course people who don't see that but i think generally the you know when paul says in the last days there will be scoffers and they will do terrible things and you we would refer to that to the age we're in now so i think on all three of those bases, that there's an eschatological expectation that the gifts of the spirit are

between Pentecost and return of Christ. The hermeneutical weight of proof should be on anyone who says you shouldn't follow apostolic instructions that come numerous times to pursue prophecy and other gifts. And then there's a historical argument as well. And so those would be the three main ones for me and yeah yeah we can well okay so uh and and i and i'm with you on all of those um for me it was uh one of my charismatic friends back when i was non well i was probably just kind of thinking through it you know he said is there any new testament evidence uh where you know, when the Spirit is moving, that gifts don't follow in the wake. Like the gifts seem to come with the New Testament gift of the Holy Spirit.

We see it continue on through the book of Acts. We have no sort of impression from the New Testament that what the Spirit has began at Pentecost will somehow cease in 90 AD or something like that. We just don't have any New Testament evidence for that. So the one cessationist argument I could see some validity in is you do seem to see the gifts of the Spirit connected with the apostolic office, or at least the apostles, we have that. And what is it? Is it Hebrews and then second Corinthians where, you know, the apostles were sort of testified to you by these gifts. I don't have the exact verses, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Can you think of that argument? Yeah. I think to some degree, I think you go, that's in some ways, that's very much true in the sense that I and so I don't think there's a, I don't think there needs to be a baby bathwater thing here, where in order to, see, I would, I perhaps might be unusual in charismatic circles, I'm not, but I do think that the apostles,

at least the ones we have written about, we don't know about Bartholomew, right? I assume, or whoever, Thaddeus. But certainly, you know, Peter and john in the start of acts and then paul there's um there's a measure of miraculous accompaniment of their gospel ministry that is exceedingly rare if touched on at all today although that said we don't know that it wasn't rare in the new testament actually i mean luke is probably a lot of people would say luke is giving us something of a highlights reel anyway um but i don't know that it wasn't rare in the new testament actually i mean luke is probably a lot of people would say luke is giving us something of a highlights reel anyway um but i

don't know of anybody today who claims that they have healed the entire island of malta for instance of all of their citizens which is what happened at the end of the book of acts i know people and um and so i and i'm perfectly happy to conceive that and say yeah i think that's that's true um having said which i also, I think that's true. Having said which, I also don't think there's anybody around today who claims to have planted churches all the way from Jerusalem to Illyricum. But that doesn't mean we don't carry on planting churches. And I don't know anybody whose church discipline strategy involves striking Ananias and Sapphira dead in the middle of a meeting. But that doesn't mean we don't practice church discipline.

So in a sense, I think the apostles serve as exception. What's it on the West Wing? There's this line where they say, where they say unities s grant works as an exception for every single rule and i feel like the apostles in some sometimes they actually can work like that as well like where you say well the apostles are different from you well they're different in everything like there's that logic would get me to an awful lot of unbiblical places if i didn't over apply it so the question you've got to ask is yeah go ahead finish with that finish with that well no i was just gonna say the question you've got to ask is is there any evidence that there is that gifts are exclusively associated with the apostles and of course that's where you then look at acts as a whole and say no of course not they've got loads and loads of people who in fact you've got lots of anonymous miracles happen in

the book of acts where you don't have anybody attributed with them it's just Jesus is doing them through ordinary people you have Philip's daughters who prophesy you have agape you know all kinds of people and of course the expectation Paul has that miracles are being done in the churches and not only by apostles but that there are is the charismatic you know charisma of miracles a charisma of healing and the elders in the local random churches James is writing to are expected to be able to anoint people with oil and the sick will be healed.

So it's not like we're seeing a narrowness to it. So I think the apostles do a lot of healing, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that it's exclusively associated with the apostles, and plenty of evidence to suggest it's not. So you're okay with a significant magnitude of miracles surrounding the apostles that doesn't necessarily need to be matched today. I mean, you get the impression from, I mean, all the way from Jesus' ministry to, you know, the apostles that, man, wherever they were going, like there was just, you know, dead people were just rising up and people were getting healed all over the place.

Like that's a significant magnitude. That's a significant magnitude. So you're okay saying that, yes, the magnitude may have been a first century thing, a unique thing God's doing that doesn't necessarily need to be replicated in the same way. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have that we therefore say it's only that all the gifts are just simply limited to the first century. Well, I do. I am saying that. Yes, I think the disparity. Let's say we could establish beyond any doubt that there was a difference in magnitude. Yes, I think the disparity, let's say we could establish beyond any doubt that there was a difference in magnitude, that wouldn't bother me in the slightest because I would claim, and I think it's obvious to me,

that Paul is also a far better teacher than anyone alive today, but that doesn't mean we don't teach, and so on. We could do that for many things. Having said which, I would probably, I generally want to push at both ends of that disparity because I think what can happen is we treat Acts as if it was a day in the life when it's not. It's 30 years in the life, and it's actually quite a selective history. And I think Luke is well aware that he's telling us a series of very significant stories rather than this is what it was normally like. I think there are disparities clearly from the named individuals we know, even disparities within the 12, where there'd be some who are very prominent in what they are, miracles they are working, and some't we hear very little about if anything and some of

course who are not apostles and who are very prominent like steven who seems to see a lot of miracles and yet is killed very quickly and is not an apostle um so i think i would push at that end and say let's not assume that acts is like if you you know if you're in the church in assume that acts is like if you you know if you're in the church in Thessalonica you are seeing uh whatever it is acts four level miracles happening all the time I don't think we need to I don't think we know that but I'd also want to push at the other end and say and I think if you but if you would apply the Lucan principle to the 21st century church and say right now let's write a history of the last 30 years but with a particular focus on highlighting the most dramatic things god was doing in global christianity you would have a

story that did not look very far away from acts at all in fact you have all kinds of i mean craig keenan's done a lot of work on this some of the miraculous stories you have many of which are very well documented you have huge break i think what happens is we compare a relatively unimpressive component, which namely Western reformed-ish churches, many of whom don't believe in the gifts anyway, and so unsurprisingly you don't see that many, and compare that with Luke as if Luke is reporting what's always going on.

And I want to push at both ends of that, although I still acknowledge there is probably a gap, and that's what I'd expect. There's a gap in godliness and theological acumen and many, many other things as well between you. I've never met anyone who's preached to an unbelieving crowd and seen 3,000 people respond. And Peter, that's how the book of Acts starts. But that doesn't mean we don't preach the gospel.

It just means the apostles are better than we are. Let's talk about some of the abuses. And this is where I grew up very strongly cessationist, almost anti, well, yeah, anti-charismatic pretty much. And we always talked about the abuses. And even though I would be, again, I think I told you before, you know, on paper charismatic. I don't necessarily think I'm the best practicing charismatic. But I still do get nervous, if not a bit, I'll say it, a bit angry sometimes at some of the abuses, because that could, you know, let me give you an example. So a while back, there was a video

going around on YouTube of a very well-known church that, you know, they were worshiping and, you know, exercising the gifts, and all of a sudden, like, you saw gold dust coming down from the ceiling. And then you saw what they said were angel feathers coming down from this, from the, you know, in their videotaping this and everything. Now I know, and maybe you do too, that angels don't have wings. They certainly don't have feathers. They are spiritual beings that look like men. They're mistaken for just humans. Cherubim and seraphim have wings, but they're not messengers like angels are. So I'm thinking theologically through this, and I'm like, okay, here, theologically, here are the options. There were pigeons in the rafters. No, no, no, I'm saying like there were pigeons, maybe chickens got up there,

the feathers started coming down, and they were misinterpreted as angel feathers. And I'm like, okay, I'm okay with that. That's, that's, that's totally legitimate. Or my only other option theologically is that somebody went up there and manipulated this and then said, this is God, like manipulating the work of God and the gold dust, like somebody was either God really did sprinkle gold dust on them, or there was some freak accident where, you know, the ceiling looked like, I don't know, like maybe there's some freak misinterpretation, or there's people that are actually manipulating the work of God. That latter category, which I think is very real and possible, to me, I'm like, that's worst. That's like the worst thing ever to manipulate, to do something, which is a lie and say, this is the work of God.

To me, I'm like, I'm going to stay clear from that church because lightning bolts are going to start striking. Like, that's just not, oh, well, they mean well. No, no, no. That, I mean, the Bible is really clear on people manipulating the work of God. They get struck dead. They are false prophets. They are contrary to the gospel. I'm not even going to go that far, especially if somebody might know the church I'm referring to there. I don't even want to push that beyond just laying out the logic.

But as I go around and the abuses to me aren't just misguided kind of passion. In some ways, they could be manipulating the work of God, which to me is just incredibly dangerous and serious. I want to say all that and be concerned about that at the same time, still say, no, I believe in everything you said. I believe the gifts are, the real gifts are for today. We should practice them and pursue them. And most churches don't to their shame. But how do you process kind of some of the abuses? Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, first to say, I think I'm completely with you on the, I think without knowing the specifics of the circumstances you're talking about, certainly I would, it would absolutely be 100% with you

that if somebody is up in the rafters dropping feathers onto it and then saying, this is God, that's like, that's third commandment territory, isn't it? That is using the name of the Lord in vain. And it's like, you know, you must never do this. And you'd be, you know, you'd be for your life in the New Testament if that kind of, that's the sort you know you must you must never do this and you'd be you know pay for your life in the new testament if that kind of that's the sort of thing you're up to so that's not um yeah that's not that's pretty extreme i think if that is what's going on

but i but it's not at all extreme tragically uh to in churches like the churches of my like mine um it doesn't happen in my hasn't nothing like this has happened in my church, but I was just, the other day I wrote a column for, my column in Christianity Today came out, it was on prophecy. And I linked to the article and just said,

hey, you know, just to my Twitter people, you know, I've written this thing. And a guy who runs a mission organization here in London, he's a really good guy that I've met. There's probably a contemporary of mine.

And he responds to the tweet, not against me at all, just saying, yeah, okay, great. What we also need is the kind of, I can't remember exactly what he said, but basically he told a story about how with that sort of gift of prophecy functioning, somebody had come up to him, his son died this year. And someone had come up to him and son died this year uh and someone had come up to him and said this is because of your hidden secret sin god has told me now that kind of thing is probably i don't know about the feathers i really don't know where to go with that but that sort of thing which i can see and know and i've had and i've had conversations with other individuals who've had similar things you're you're the child born to you who's going to die those sorts of i

mean just horrendously think firstly even if that was true why would you even feel the need to say it like what on earth is edification is that going to bring anyone and secondly in both of the cases i know of it wasn't true anyway so you've got this sort of terrible double whammy of you shouldn't have said it even if it were and it's not um and that is sadly not unheard of and probably many people listening would have an equivalent story of something like that i think in this in some ways this doesn't help but in some ways it does like the the the the answer you always have to go back to on any abuse of almost any gifts whether it whether even if you whether you acknowledge it's a gift or not

the answer you're always falling back on ultimately is this is something, you know, you can abuse gifts. You can do, you can do, sorry. Momentarily somebody popped in. You, you can abuse anything and that doesn't mean that the gift is bad. And to be honest, you get that with something, you get that with alcohol, you get that with sex, you get that with food, you get it with the Bible, you get it with alcohol, you get that with sex, you get that with food, you get it with the Bible, you get it with theology. Church leadership.

Yeah, right. Now that's not, but I'm not using that as a get out of jail free card. Because there are certain forms of practice that are more open than others to foolishness and charlatanry. And I suspect that charismatic gifts are like that. And I think one reason they're like that is because, and Piper has a great essay on it called Why Some Spiritual Gifts Attract Unstable People. It's a really interesting pastoral reflection. And he's wrestled a lot with this because he's probably like you actually,

charismatic in his theology, but hasn't practiced that much. And partly it's because it's an issue that makes it very difficult to lead wisely sometimes. And his comment in that is a very difficult to lead wisely sometimes. And his comment in that is a very helpful little essay, where he says there are gifts that people are drawn to if some of the normal rules that apply to the way you use gifts in the church don't apply to that gift. So if I have a gift of teaching, I go away to seminary, I study, I come back, I teach.

People can check whether what I said is right or wrong. The gift of prophecy, for instance instance looks like it shortcuts that and so there's a certain type of person who might well be drawn to use that gift because I can say anything I want to anybody and it looked like it's from God or be valid and I think that means that some gifts and some of the charismatic gifts attract certain types of people to use them who are more likely to run into some of the issues you've just described than gifts like teaching or leadership because the process for appraising whether it's good or not are much more nebulous and i think the way to respond to that as a pastor for me is you just have to teach

a lot to teach very clearly into how we handle these gifts you'd be very generally shepherd the whole church through very clearly it's like this is what's just happened this is what we're going to do about it. Don't worry. It's all fine. But, you know, that was a little bit weird, but we really believe God is doing this and we want to pursue that. You've got to teach biblically all the time. You've got to model good stewardship and discernment and, you know,

test everything. Hold fast to the good. Just get rid of what's evil. Yeah. I don't think that's an easy fix. I don't think that's something you do on a one Sunday and suddenly everyone goes, great, I get it. We can all be charismatic with no problem.

You have to use wisdom. But I think that's true of everything. I think that's true of reformed theology. I think it's true of church leadership. So I don't think it's a special case, but I do think it's a kind of issue that will often attract people who might find that kind of advice harder to take. And that does make it more positively sensitive. I get that. Thank you. That's probably the best, most nuanced,

most aware kind of response I've heard in a long time. So thank you for that. And I completely agree that the abuse of a gift doesn't nullify the gift itself. And, and I, yeah, anyway, I appreciate everything you said. I guess here's my one, the one thing I would love is that people would be like you or people that are capital C charismatic would be that they would be the ones, you know, calling foul on the abuses. Cause right now it's primarily just,

from what I hear from some people that are championing, you know, a charismatic theology, um, maybe more aggressively than I am. Um, they tend in my Um, they tend, in my experience, they tend to kind of make excuses or kind of like downplay the abuses, or they'll just say, well, the abuse of the gift doesn't nullify the gift itself and move on. But like these, these abuses aren't just, they're not just well-intentioned people going too far. Like they're actually working against the gospel or, you know, cause I get emails all the time from people that grew up in, let's just say more extreme charismatic context and they lost their faith for 10 years. They walked away from Jesus cause they got tired of being bit by snakes and, you know, having,

you know, uh, being prophesied over in ways that were unhelpful or, you know, so I mean, like it actually can work against somebody's faith in the furtherance of the gospel, not just a neutral area of kind of misguided passion. So, that's super helpful um there was and that is and i i do that is something i in fact you know you always walk in a line because you you don't want to be continually grumbling either but i've i've done quite a few about a number in fact i just yesterday i got my um you know i just the annual statistics came through for our blog like what are the articles most people have read and i was just going through and just oh wow so but if you look through our top 10 like several of the top 10 posts were things that i'd written that were you know going after

particular charismatic groups or churches for particular bad theological or practical missteps as i see them or things which are seriously bad and i I guess sometimes they're the kinds of things that people circulate and read a lot of. And I do, that is something I feel, I feel really committed to do because I think if you don't do that, people don't realize that there's a difference between what you're saying and the crazy thing they've seen on the God channel. It would actually give more credibility to what you're saying. If you do explicitly acknowledge and denounce the abuses, I think.

I think you do. But at the same time, the slight pushback I have for my more conservative friends is that one of the reasons why it is possible and it is even seen as desirable for people to go off into a little group and have no very wonky theology and bad practice, but lots of apparent power, is because so many in the West,

and I say this is not so true in the majority world, but so many in the west and i'll say this is not so true in the majority world but so many in the west who are more theologically sharp have gone we've washed the hands of the whole thing and distanced themselves and said we're not going to do that anywhere and so what you have is on both i think there is a harbing on both sides but can be if you're not careful yeah um where people are almost nervous of laying on of hands and praying to the same like when did when did a demon last get cast out in your church and if the answer is never that's not to do with whether you believe the gifts continue that's just simply whether the ministry of jesus continues in and through the church and and that's where i think probably both sides have to ask questions about that and say

am i throwing the other sides baby out with the box and i think both can and that's where yeah no absolutely and that's where i appreciate churches that maybe aren't capital C charismatic in how they exercise the gifts, but they are, they're not afraid to raise their hands or lay hands or pray for healing or, or even, you know, at least explore, you know, demonic oppression. Real quick, before we leave this, I know, I know we're pushing up against time here, but prophecy. What's your view on prophecy? Because most of the churches I minister in are probably charismatic or on that side of things. Some would be pretty extreme. And so I've been prophesied over dozens and dozens of times. And I would say a very small percentage of those prophecies have been kind of meaningful. I would say at least 75% involve a waterfall, which is, I love waterfalls. No, 100% of them have been.

Surely it's leading you to move to Idaho, right? I know, right? Yeah, that's why I'm here. I saw a waterfall. 100% of the prophecies have all been positive. Now I know my wicked heart and I know there's all kinds of stuff they could have drawn out saying, hey, God's telling me you're dealing with X, Y, and Z. You need to repent. I've never had that. It's always positive. I would say about 95%. So about 75% waterfalls, a hundred percent positive. 95% had been ambiguous in general that my, you know, my five-year-old, my, I don't know the age of my kids, my nine-year-old could have, you know, said like, you know, God wants you to know that his favor is upon you and that, uh, he, he, he will never let you go. I'm like, is that a prophecy or just kind of like, I, my atheist neighbor could have told me that, you know? Um, but there has

been 5%, I would say that they still might've involved the waterfall, a bit positive, but I'm like, wow, that, that clearly seems like that was a gift, not just wisdom. In fact, one of them was in London. It was actually at Soul Survivor Church, a beautiful Anglican charismatic church. And I remember three people independently prophesied over me, said almost the exact same thing. And it came true a year later as a major transition going on in my life. And no, it came true two months later or something. And it was still kind of general, but it was like, man, three independent people sought me out to

do this. And I was like, man, that, that, that actually was very meaningful. Anyway, I'm just, I'm kind of giving too much background, but can you help us understand prophecy? I feel like prophecy has become this very nebulous kind of concept. There's old Testament kind of predicting the future. If it doesn't come true, then you'd be, you should be killed. New Testament kind of encouraging words. It's kind of general general encouragement but is that an actual spiritual gift so anyway what what yeah what's what is what should we believe i like starting with where paul does when he's trying to help the corinthians hit the same issue which is anybody who's prophesized another person speaks to people for their encouragement consolation edification so that

might sound like very general okay but that doesn't worry me because that's how paul tells them to process it but it effectively i that there is um and anthony fizzleton's got a great definition and he does a lot of work on it in his commentaries and you know just comes out with this really good definition saying this which i can't quite verbatim but it's basically yeah it is it might be prepared it might be spontaneous so don't get hung up on it has to be spontaneous might well be something that someone prepared before but it is a form of divinely prompted speech that is not infallible, but that ultimately consoles, encourages, confronts,

or edifies the people to whom it's being delivered. Mistakes can be made, so they need to be weighed and tested. And this is basically going through, how does Paul use this word in the Corinthian correspondence? Okay. And as I read that, I think that's basically exactly what what i think it is and that allows for actually quite a lot of bandwidth on the kinds of things that might qualify so and when you look in the book of acts you actually find the same thing so the if you say think of me a prophet in the book of acts most

people would go to someone like agabus who predicts the famine and they'd say that's prophecy and it is but any look at the other people are described as prophesying and what they say you then have philip's four daughters who prophesied we don't know what they said we just know by paul's definition it's encouraging consoling or edifying speech you have judas and silas who are prophets and what they do is uh go and communicate pastoral wisdom really on the application of the jerusalem letter in acts 15 how are you going to work this through in your context and everybody goes away feeling encouraged and strengthened um which is quite like paul in 1 corinthians 14 um you have the group of the prayer meeting in acts 13 then the holy spirit said set aside barnabas and saw so there's a sort

of that's general in a way it's very specific in some ways but it's very general in another way because you can't tell whether it's god or not you just decide to do it and then you obey and that's general in a way it's very specific in some ways but it's very general in another way because you can't tell whether it's god or not you just decide to do it and then you obey and that's about calling the church to mission and calling people to be to go to the nations and in a sense i think all of those and probably more besides are all under that rubric of prophecy even in the book of acts so i would expect some prophecy to be directional challenge God's gonna do this in your life and you should do this some to be generally edifying consoling comforting speech some to be predictive there's gonna be a famine here and you send relief for it and even that's even if I was dealing with the Apostles and

prophets and the first generation given that I'm dealing with people today many of whom are not of the are whether they're the same level of gift or experiences there I think there may well be a whole host of other prophecies which the Corinthians may have been bringing, which required a lot more sifting and a lot more, hang on, is this even true? And that sort of thing. So I think at an abstract level, I would say, I would think prophecy can cover all of those things.

And so I would expect there to be a whole mix. What I think we probably need to do at pastoral level is to teach people how to distinguish between the levels of all the kinds of prophecy and even just what checks and balances to put in place i an advice i've sometimes used is the bigger the call you're asking somebody to make off the back of the word you're bringing them the higher the bar needs to be for you to be sure or them to be sure you're right so if i'm going to come up to you and say preston i just really believe god's telling me he loves me i believe that could totally be a prophetic word not because i didn't know it from anywhere except script except spontaneous revelation but because that may well be exactly what the

holy spirit needed i've had words like that over my life where someone's spoken something i know is true but they brought it at a time where i knew i needed to hear it. And I go, okay, you might not call that prophecy. That's fine. But for me, that was the spirit ministering to my soul in that moment. But there's that end of the spectrum right through to really big directional things. I've had like, this is the career choice you should make. Or in one case, you should have another baby. And in the end, we just believe.

We think this is such an extraordinary word. We believe God's going to provide for us, even if we do have a third child, given the needs of our older two. And when we have, and actually we've named him Samuel as a result of the prophecy we received. So some very big things and some very little things. And I feel like the word prophecy in the New Testament at least can cover probably the whole spectrum. I guess my only, I appreciate that. And as always, it's nuanced and thoughtful. I guess when I hear you say prophecy is, you know, encouragement, what was it?

The three things, encouragement, challenge and... Consolation and edification. Yeah. It almost, you know, I guess the classic, you know, if everything's prophecy, then nothing's really prophecy. Like, is there such a thing where somebody could encourage me where it's not prophecy or challenge me where it's not actually an exercise of think it could i think it could i think i and you would as you know that you know the gift there is a gift of exhortation or encouragement which

is mentioned in a number of those pastors which is uh which is distinct from the gift of prophecy but i think there's probably overlap i think the word i, I think prophecy as Paul talks about it, is primarily talking about something which is in the gathered assembly. So I think the idea of, you know, the sort of the private word is probably, you'd have to make a hard, that's harder to make a case for,

I think in Corinthians at least. I think there's an idea that this is public speech and it's with a view to edifying the people and not just one person. Although I don't think that means, you can't have individual words. I think that's an idea that this is public speech and it's with a view to edifying the people and not just one person. You can't have individual words. I think they do it for Paul, you know, your mission. So I'm not saying that every time someone says something encouraging, I call it prophecy. And I'm certainly not saying that every time someone uses prophetic speech habits, like closing their eyes, stretching their arms out, saying thus saith the Lord, that makes it possible. their eyes stretching their arms out saying thus saith the lord that makes it he doesn't um but i but i do think that even though it could sound like a fairly general application of the principle

i also think that's the kind of definition i'd get if i went to paul i think i would go through yeah this is this is prophecy isn't it's not like encouragement is the same thing as prophecy but prophecy should be in that sense encouraging oring, which means that if someone says, your son died because of your secret sin, you know that's not prophecy. Because even if it was true as a statement, which I don't think it was, it's still not edifying, consoling, or encouraging, or edifying in any way. So you shouldn't have said it, and it's not prophecy. So in some ways, it helps as a test, but not as a definition. So my concern that 100% of the prophecies that have been prophesied over me are encouraging, you're saying that's actually not a, that's how it should be in a sense.

I'm not quite saying that. I'm saying it wouldn't concern me that they have been, but I'm not saying they must be because I think sometimes things can be, I have, people have brought, and it depends on your context. I've been in charismatic churches for 20 years. So I've seen a lot of this. And sometimes when people bring words, they can have, they have teeth and they can be challenging, but they are edifying. And, you know, and as you would know that, you know,

the nuances of paraklesis are not just, this makes you feel better. They are strengthening, coming alongside, fortifying, and they may not necessarily, they give you courage. They may not necessarily be saying they're there. may be saying, you do need to put your finger out here and do something different. But I think that encouragement and edification in the sense of the New Testament sense of being strengthened and fortified and built up is an acid test for whether or not this is godly. And if it's not those things, then it isn't prophecy. Yeah. Andrew, I'm worried about your time here.

Yeah, we got to go. I wanted to talk about women in leadership because I think you have a very, really compelling perspective on that. But one quick word. So you got a book coming out next month, I believe, Spirit and Sacrament, an invitation to eucharismatic worship. Eucharismatic, a word coined by dr andrew wilson is that right yeah in fact the way you said doctor there was like the way that tommy d jones says it

in the fugitive and he goes you refuted his name as dr richard kemmel yes um i have a book called spirit and sacrament which is really exploring a lot of the things we've just been talking about but also um if also pushing for the, for the fusion of the, the sacraments that, you know, and a historical liturgically rooted self-consciously Catholic practice alongside a charismatic expression,

which I think is quite unusual. And I would love to see much more common in the church at large, where you are both self-consciously Catholic and big church vision, historic roots, liturgy, sacraments. And you can fuse that together with the charismatic gifts, the power, the expectation that Jesus is actually alive and is going to answer the prayers. I believe in angels and demons, all the rest. So I think those two can come together. And that's what I've written the book to try and persuade people on.

Looking forward to it, Andrew. Thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. And we've got to have you on again to talk about the women in leadership thing. Yeah, I ran out of time on that. Sorry. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. And we've got to have you on again to talk about the women in leadership thing. Yeah, I ran out of talk on that. Sorry. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Thanks so much for being on the show.

It's great to be here. All right. Take care. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to Theology in the Raw. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw.

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