Theology in the Raw - 742: #742 - Forgiveness and the Charleston Church Shooting: A Conversation with Brian Ivie

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

On episode #742 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Brian Ivie. Brian Ivie is a director and screenwriter based in Los Angeles and co-founder of Arbella Studios, a production company dedicated to telling stories of faith and social justice. He is a graduate of the USC School of Cinematic Arts and has directed and produced two feature documentaries, "The Drop Box," an exposé on abandoned children in South Korea, and "Emanuel," the story of the 2015 church shooting in Charleston, South Carolina. "Emanuel," from Executive Producers Stephen Curry and Academy Award Winner Viola Davis, will release nationwide in June 2019. As a screenwriter, Brian has written for Netflix, Sony Pictures, and Erwin Brothers Entertainment. He is represented by CAA. You can get more information about the film at https://emanuelmovie.com Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Theology in the Raw. If you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw and you can support the show for as little as five bucks a month and get access to some premium content like blogs and extra podcasts and a community where you can discuss various issues with me and my supporters. So that's patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw, but appreciate your support. But if you can't support the show, then please be giving to the poor or helping those in need on some level. And if you can do that and give this show, that's awesome too. If not, please enjoy this free listener supported podcast. My guest on the show today is Brian Ivey. Brian is a movie producer. I just met him a few, let's see, a month and a half ago at the Q Conference. He's a friend of

a friend. He's an excellent, excellent filmmaker. My buddy, who does amazing work in film, who is friends with Brian, my buddy says Brian is just off the chart amazing. And so for my friend to say that means this guy's, this guy's, you know, the real deal. So anyway, he's got a documentary coming out called Emmanuel, the untold story of the Charleston church shooting. You're going to hear him talk about both the Charleston church shooting in 2015, and what it was like making the documentary and some of the complexities that have ensued after making that documentary. But the documentary is going to be released on in theaters, okay,

nationwide on theater in theaters on June 17th and June 19th. Uh, you may say, what about the 18th? Well, you'll see why, uh, he's releasing the film in theaters on those two dates. So if you want to go to this film, I would highly, highly, highly recommend taking your family, taking your friends, taking yourself. If you're, do you go to the movies by yourself? I actually don't mind that. It's Hey, more popcorn for me. Emmanuel, the untold story of the Charleston church shooting. I think

it's about an hour and a half. It's a documentary. It's an incredibly, incredibly moving, one of the most amazing stories about forgiveness. It is absolutely insanely amazing. You got to go see this movie. So that's June 17th, June 19th. And you, yeah, so anyway, you're going to hear more about what this documentary was about and what it was like making this documentary. So please welcome to the show for the first time ever, the Brian Ivey. And we are live. I am here with my new friend, Brian Ivey. Brian, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw, bro. Dude, I love it, man. Thanks for having me. I love having, I usually have kind of like Christian, I would say primarily writers.

Sometimes I have musicians and I actually recently just had another guy. It's not released yet, so maybe yours will be released before him. But Rex Harsin,arson who does he also does documentaries sure do you know who he is or i think so yeah he just released a documentary called uh beating guns it corresponds with shane claiborne who wrote a book called beating guns on kind of the just the well not exposing just kind of interacting with the kind of American fascination with guns and even like Christians, you know, and how does that square with the gospel? And anyway, so I just recently had him on. I've had some Christian musicians on, but I always love to have different

kinds of Christians, especially in the world of art and stuff. So I'm super excited about this interview, man. I love it. Why don't we start? Just give us a snapshot of who you are for our audience and what, you know, what kind of got you into doing, wanting to do film? Well, yeah, man. I mean, uh, you know, I am, I'm a really progressive Christian. That's why I wore my chance to rapper hat for you. So I just wanted to make sure you knew. My kids would love that actually.

They're, they're, they're a fan. This is, this interview is going to be really liberal and progressive. So I'm, this is going to be raw, actually. They're a fan. This interview is going to be really liberal and progressive. So this is going to be raw, dude. So I grew up in Orange County, the capital of white privilege. It was a very idyllic upbringing. Every summer I would make movies with my friends, and that is really how it started for me. So I wanted to make movies since I was a kid. Really?

Never thought I would do it for a living because certainly nobody believed that I could. But that's because it was just something I did for fun. But it's something I did with my friends. And every summer we'd make Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or James Bond. It was like we weren't very original. Like we were not writers. We were just, I think we were just dreamers. So we were trying to figure it out and i and in high school i started a cinema club which meant i didn't have a girlfriend and i just spent a lot of time in the dark uh uh but i i also just kind of grew my

fascination with like film and art and how do we transcend what's so boring and ordinary about my life because it seems like even even in a place where everybody has everything it feels like at times they have nothing and so what does that really mean so then I ended up going to film school at USC and rooming with an evangelical Christian named Will who I called God's Will and we would have like really fun conversations because I didn't grow up in the church. So I didn't really have like that background at all. In fact, I hated Christians were like children of the corn, right? So they're like foam to the mouth. I didn't I didn't want anything to do with them. And but then I roomed with this dude who's

kind of authentic. And he showed me a different side of what like religion could look like. And then really what happened in my life was I read an article about a pastor in South Korea, of all places, who was adopting disabled children off the street. Right. And he had built what was called a drop box for abandoned babies into the wall of his church and had to date rescued over 500 kids. Oh, my word so i decided since i was a film student i was i was like okay i'll send this dude an email and i'll google translate it into korean and see if he'd let me come out and make a movie about his story and he responded and so me god's will and a bunch of my friends flew out to South Korea in December 2012 to make a film about this man.

And at the end of it, were you a Christian yet at this point or just kind of no, but I was just interested. Yeah, I like to say like, I wanted to go to Sundance Film Festival and got saved instead. You know, it's like, my goal was to to be famous, to tell a story that would get me into these like cool kind of intelligentsia, humanist film festivals and make me an interesting artist. But instead, it's just God's way of getting to me. And and so I came out of that experience seeing God for the first time through this man and what he was doing, reaching out to the lost and broken and found myself among them. And so I ended up becoming a Christian through the process of making that film. So that's kind of – That's fascinating.

What was he like? What's his name, the guy who rescued all those people? His name is Pastor Lee. That's right. I remember when that story came out, I remember about that. People were talking – it's kind of being passed around. But what's he like? Dude, he is – he's the GOAT, man.

Like that dude in heaven is like LeBron James. You know what I'm saying? Like honestly, he's one of those – he didn't even – he doesn't speak English. So all he knows how to say is hello, I love you, and coffee, like literally. But his life preached to me um and i think i needed to see that god wasn't just a televangelist he was a father and i and that he cared about me yeah and a lot of my own addictions and problems and failures and and this guy was adopting people nobody else wanted and nobody else loved and that was something

I didn't know I needed to see but I did and and so that changed my life are you still friends with God's will are you guys buds or dude God's will and I are tight God's will lives in Newport he's jacked he's just like he's just a I don't know he's one of those He's just like, he's just a, I don't know. He's one of those guys. He was like, okay, being messy and being like really broken still. And I needed to see that too. But yeah, he's my boy and he just had a kid. So it's cool to grow up with him. So 2012, so that, was that your first documentary you made or were you? Totally dude. Nobody wants to make a documentary. Honestly, bro.

I wanted to be JJ Abrams. i wanted to be jj abram i want to be christopher nolan like but but the thing was when you get to film school and you realize you're not as talented as some of the other kids i wanted to be an entertainer but i realized at film school i wasn't very good at entertaining people but what i could do is communicate with people okay in a way that compelling. And so the documentary form ended up becoming kind of like my voice. Okay. Okay. Now, so tell us about the most recent one you're about to release, Emmanuel, the untold story of the Charleston church shooting.

I guess, why don't we start by just the Charleston church shooting for our audience? I mean, I'm sure most of our audience vaguely might know about it. Some may be really familiar with it, but there's been, I mean, I, this is terrible, terrible, but there's been so many shootings, right? That it's kind of hard to keep up with which, which ones is which. So tell us about the shooting and then why you decided to do a documentary on it. Sure. So for those who may remember or don't know, on June 17th of 2015, there was a Bible study in Charleston, South Carolina at a very iconic African American church called Mother Emanuel, African Methodist Episcopal. Martin Luther King spoken at this

church is just, it's one of those things, it's kind of like the beating heart of the Black community. And on a Wednesday night Bible study, a 21-year-old white kid walked in, sat with him for 45 minutes, and when they bowed their heads in prayer, he opened fire and killed nine people. And then 48 hours after the shooting, the family members of the victims were gathered in a local courthouse, and one by one stood and forgave the murderer. One of them even inviting him to give his life to Christ in the hearing. So I heard about this story when I was on my honeymoon with my wife and didn't really know what to do with it at first.

But I knew that something supernatural had happened in the midst of a great tragedy. So the killer, what's his name? Or actually you don't say, I don't love saying the names of killers. Sure. Sure. He wasn't, he didn't kill himself, which is typically what happens, right? No, he had planned to, cause he had assumed what would happen is when he exited the church, there would be a lot of cops and there would be this,

this kind of like battle scene he had imagined for himself where he'd go out and hail a gunfire, but there was nobody there yet. Nobody knew what had happened. And so he just drove off and they caught him 14 hours later. And is he still alive? He's on death row. Wow. So that when they, when he said they stood before him they literally were in his presence looking at him and forgiving him yeah and you have this on film right yeah that's

the that's really like the um climactic part of the movie wow what what um again i don't want to talk too much about the killer but was he deranged mean, clearly it was an act of race, racism. Of course. Yeah, that's important to say, actually. So he was a self-avowed white supremacist. So the killer himself declared in the shooting, and we know this because we know the survivors, and we were able to interview them for the film, that he had told them he was doing this because they were black and they were taking over the country. So what we had was a clear hate crime, a murder and an execution of nine innocent people. And then in the wake of it, something, a kind of love that

you rarely see in the world today. Wow. What, what, what was the response from the community with their forgiveness? Well, I think it's complicated because forgiveness can be, I think forgiveness at times can kind of impede the justice process, or at least it almost stops the grieving to say, well, let's just get past this. The African-American community constantly feels like they're made to forgive very quickly, so we don't have to deal with the realities of racism and the inequity you still see in society. But I think in this particular situation, none of the family members

plan to forgive. That's the fascinating part about this. In fact, they didn't even know they were going to be given a chance to speak. So what's amazing is that each of them independently say, God took over or spoke through me or started to say things that I didn't want to say. And that began to heal of the community that was very brokenhearted about this still being something that exists. And I think it heals a lot of people and it's continuing to do so. So would you say that there's clear, for lack of better terms, empirical evidence that their radical otherworldly forgiveness was a source of healing for the community. I mean, definitely. Yeah. And I think it can,

it co-existed with justice because Dylan Ruth was charged. He was arrested. He was, he was charged with murder. He's sentenced to death. You know, there's, that's a controversial, of course, conclusion, but he is on death row and he's going to pay for his crimes. So that is, um, so that it didn't, it didn't actually stop the justice process from happening. It just interpersonally, um, started to heal the community that was very, uh, was, that was hurting. What was his reaction when he was being forgiven? Do you, do we know about that? Yeah. I mean, a lot of the thing about it is when you watch the film

the only angle that we have in the hearing because they weren't allowed to film anything else is just him watching them forgive so that so the whole time you are watching his face and there is a moment where it feels like he becomes a human being again it's fascinating really yeah do we know any crazy in the last five it's almost almost four years uh the follow-up with him in prison on death row like do we know anything about him in the aftermath no we i think what's what's been really beautiful but also um it's just, it's stunning. It's like the families have been trying to visit him. You know, it's like, they're still reaching out to him in this moment, hoping that he'll repent, give his life to God, be redeemed. And, you know, I mean, what do you

even do with that? Right. So I think they haven't been able to get to him. You know, I think some of that's up to him and I know he hasn't repented. There has been no remorse whatsoever. And I think that is the most, that is the hardest thing to watch, but also the most beautiful thing to see the families, despite the fact that he does not accept it, they continue to offer it. Golly, I got a bunch of questions, but real quick. So again, the film is Emmanuel, the untold story of the Charleston church shooting. It's going to be in theaters on June 17th and then June 19th. So if you want the theater experience of this film, which, I mean, if you're a moviegoer, even a halfway decent moviegoer, you know that seeing a film in the theater is irreplaceable, really.

So I would highly recommend you guys going to see this. Is this going to be, I mean, everywhere in theaters? So, like, I live in Boise. is it going to come out in boise i mean well it'll definitely not be in boise because nobody goes to you know of course everybody everywhere but boise you can see emmanuel um no it'll it's actually playing nationwide it's kind of um it's cool because it's it's two days but it's actually releasing on the day that it happened so you would be seeing you would be seeing the film on the day of the shooting and the day of the forgiveness.

That's the idea, June 17th and June 19th. Oh, so the forgiveness. Oh, two days later. That's right. Two days later. So the dates are intentional. Okay. Very intentional.

Okay. Yeah. And so that's the experience you'd be in. But it's playing nationwide. You can go to unmanualmovie.com. Tell me about some of the more remarkable conversations you had with the the victims um who lost family members children were the children killed or definitely um teenagers yeah for sure what are some yeah if you can recall some conversations even one-liners or something

that were just dude yeah man i mean my gosh. This movie, it tears you apart and puts you back together, I think. There's a woman named Polly Shepard. If you watch the trailer, she's the first person you see, and she's the one who Dylan Roof, the murderer, he left alive on purpose so she could tell the story.

That's what he told her. And Polly will tell you that there were two lights in the room when the shooting was happening. There was the light from the laser of the gun, and there was the light of the Lord's presence. And, man, I mean, those are the kind of – and that was verified independently by another survivor.

Wow. So it's stuff like that, man, where you just feel like, where is God? And you still feel that, you know, I think authentically, you're just like, but it still happened. But you know that they felt like he was with them despite what was happening and has brought some good out of it. I mean, there are some amazing stories. Anthony Thompson talks about his wife. So Anthony's wife, Myra, was leading the Bible study for the first time. First time.

She'd just been ordained a minister, and she was killed that night. But Anthony remembers that the day that she was preparing for the Bible study, she was glowing, and he said he couldn't touch her. It was like he wasn't allowed to. And later, he kind of he felt like God said to him was because I already had her, and she was already in her glory. And just stuff like that, man, where you see the dying grace that God gives to people. I mean, it felt like everybody was prepared for this moment when you talk to their families, like they would write letters saying, when I'm gone, please take care of this, take care of that. It's just crazy, man.

So with the responses, you said it's, it's complicated. And I could imagine that. And I, I can see where the complication would come from. This happened also in, in, I mean, there was a very similar incident in 2006 with the Amish shooting. Yes. And same thing. Absolutely. They forgave people and the reaction to that was mixed.

They thought it was like, you know, that's just being – you're letting justice run rampant unless you're vengeful really. Right. And I could – even as somebody who believes in nonviolence, I could see the tension there. It's like, oh my word. Yeah, but, you know, and especially when it's a combination of faith and race happening. And with the Amish, the Amish was just kind of, as far as I remember, that shooting, there was no kind of explanation. It was just, you know, but this one,

there's a clear target race and maybe faith played into that. And yeah, I mean, did people, so some people were kind of upset or they, they felt like this is. So many people were pissed. They were like, you can't forgive. Why are we forgiving racism? Right. And I think. Well, they think it's excusing it, right?

Like if you forgive it, then it'll just keep happening. 100%. It's like, well, this is what the black community always has to do. We have to forgive and forget. And everybody, we just pretend that this isn't still an issue. And we pretend that it never was. And it's like you get a lot of the feeling of never forget 9-11, but always forget slavery. You know, I think that's what that community still faces is a white fragility that just refuses to deal and repent openly of these things and of the privilege that came out of a legacy.

That is a legacy of white supremacy in our country. That was a founding principle. And so I can understand where that that that feeling comes from but i think the difference is when you when you throw christ into the mix in our faith it's kind of like we were called to love our enemies and to um to not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good right but we also at the same time um, God says, leave it to the wrath of God. So we can count on God if Dylann Roof, if a murderer, if any gunman doesn't repent and doesn't seek forgiveness, that God will deal justly with him. Right. Better than we can, right?

Much better. Yeah. So we have that assurance. So with the victims, what has been their response to some of the criticisms of their forgiveness? Have they had to respond to that? That's painful to even think about. Like they've been through enough like to now. For sure.

It's almost like in a roundabout way, that's really kind of dehumanizing to like. Yeah. You weren't there in black, white, brown, whatever, like for you to criticize what they did maybe the criticism is more at the system i'd probably not them it's probably you know the white privilege system whatever but yeah what so what's been their response to that i think they've just stood by it i think they just feel like at the end of the day it was god. And God, this is what God's heart was toward even this man, even this 21 year old, and who had done such something so horrendous. And that's what it drew me to the story is that kind of love that that bore the full weight of the wrong and still

wish good upon the wrongdoer. There's really no greater love in existence and so i think they've stood by it and they've also not in any way tried to in a societal sense stop the process of judging him right and and allowing that to take place but as far as it related human to human being which i think you can hold those together yeah and they they hope that he can be changed and redeemed can hold those together yeah and they they hope that he can be changed and redeemed what so you're not you're white i mean have you received white have you received criticism for oh yeah as being a racist and i mean well i think the cool thing is uh you know when you look up white privilege in the dictionary it's just a picture of me on a bicycle, you know. So I think I think people automatically are kind of like weirded out that I was the director of the movie. But then as soon as they talk to me, I think they start to understand that I'm aware of it.

I know it's kind of weird. I stayed away from the story purposely for a year because of that exact reason. It didn't make sense. Yeah. But what drew me in was where God was in all of this. And that's what the families wanted to talk about. And so the fact that I was white was sort of secondary to the fact that I was a Christian and that I had, I understood what a Bible study was and what it meant for them to die for their faith. And I think at that level, we actually connected more so than they did with a lot of African-Americans in the media that had approached them.

Really? Yeah. Because of the faith commitment, because you understood the radicality of forgiveness and the demands of the cross. Man, what a weird space to be in. But I mean, exciting, but especially in this day and age.

I mean, racism is both high and sensitivity is high. And those play off each other sometimes, you know. Totally. I almost asked you about Jesse Smollett, what you thought about that. No, but there's racism is complex, convoluted, and it's playing into – there's just so many different levels and moving parts with it. Like, I mean, the Jesse Smollett thing, you know? Sure. Gosh, and then you have, you know, anti-Semitism seems to be on the rise.

And then it seems – then you then you have like the backlash against white privilege and then this the the was it the covenant um those kids from covenant remember that story where they a few months ago and it's like it's like sometimes when you look for racism under every rock whatever you find you find it even if it's not really there but then totally yeah but then there but then there's clear instances of horrific racism. And then the, the, for sure. I don't know. It's just, it's, it's a comp, it's a very complex conversation, multifaceted. Um, and you're right in the middle of it now. So, I mean, even now,

do you still like, do you deal with stuff daily, monthly, or is it kind of waned after you've been out of the... Oh, yeah. No, it's only picked up as we started to release the film and figure out how do we do this? How do we promote this? Okay. But the key thing that I told the families when I first met them was I don't want any money. Okay.

And so for a year and a half, almost two years, my wife really supported both of us so i could do this film for free wow that was the first thing because i i didn't the future's female you know but it was cool because we kind of made this decision together that we were going to um do this with clean hands and pure heart and make sure we weren't going to profit off of the tragedy and yeah and i think that was the first step to say, Hey, look, you know, I, I realize it's weird for me to be coming in here and doing this as just a white guy from LA. So let me just make a tangible statement of, of what my commitment really is in my heart. And I think that went a long way. And especially dealing with the issues now where people are wondering like,

And I think that went a long way, and especially dealing with the issues now where people racism will be exposed and made to see for the evil that it is in this. Like, I don't know how you could watch this. I'm going to assume, again, I haven't seen it. I don't know how you could watch this and not be more turned off by racism, more eager to confront racism, more eager to address systemic powers to be that are feeding and fostering and fueling racism. Like, how can, even if people still have a problem with the whole forgiveness piece, which again, from a Christian, it's kind of like, what do you, well, I don't know what to do with that. This is a central ingredient to it. It's one of the foundational things of our faith is forgiving and loving your enemy. And even if your enemy is a racist,

that's not, there's nothing in the Christian world that says, well, but if he's a racist, he's, no, he's a different category, you know, like, no. So yeah, that's gotta be kind of frustrating. That'd be frustrating for me when you are giving up a lot of money. Can you give a price tag on what it costs to do something like this or would you rather not or i don't know how any of you if i sorry there's a gardener now of course as soon as we get into the important parts of this interview um i mean the film was expensive to make you know yeah it costs a lot of money to get where we are. I would say, you know, over the past few years, it's almost, the film was an $800,000 endeavor, right? So normally it would be at least $80,000 to $100,000 of that

because I edited the film too. So I think, you know, there's a sense, but there's also just, I think, for me, it was a sense but there's also just I think for me it was a small sacrifice to make for the sake of the gospel and also just out of honor of these people I think as a as a filmmaker as a documentarian I always ask myself should I tell this story not just could I tell this story oh okay and so if I was going to take on that responsibility I wanted to do it the right way so for me the sacrifice was small in the sense of what these people gave up and what i was portraying the sacrifice is greater on my wife and uh who i love her name is amanda and she is she's the unsung hero of this whole

thing for sure she's working full-time while you're spending full-time uh dinking around with your iphone shooting that's right, man. That's right. What does she do? Can you tell, can you say what she does? What does she do? Yeah. My wife's awesome, man. She's way cooler. She should be on this podcast. I don't know why you have me on here. My wife works for Snapchat. She's awesome, dude. She's like flying all over the country. Wow. Just being awesome. And, and she's like flying all over the country wow just being awesome and and um she's an ad sales

she runs the accounts for apple and nike and it's just cool we met in college i met her at her baptism so we have like a really sweet history but i wasn't a christian at the time so i thought she was gorgeous but also totally insane so i i you know but now the rest is history so that's awesome well that again going back to my point that that's that i that would feel frustrating to me um that'd be that'd be hard to to give up so much seeing your wife give up so much out of an explicit heart to want to confront and expose rate and reduce racism the country and then had that kind of in various ways thrown back on you as you're the...

Oh, yeah. But I'm sure with the people that matter, namely the victims of this, the families. Yes. Obviously, there's none of that. I mean, you probably have dozens of homes you can go have meals at. Very humbling, man.

Yeah. Well, the cool thing is, so people should know this, that we showed the film to the families first. Okay. So all the families, those that have, at least those who were in the film, next of kin, like the closest relatives,

they've all seen the film, blessed the film. They love the film. We're having as many of them as possible to an event in May at Museum of the Bible. Going to bring them in just to honor them. Oh, so awesome. So it's just a relationship there that's really sweet. It goes way beyond the movie. Yeah.

Okay, so again, it's June 17th, June 19th, commemorating both the shooting, commemorating, what's the word you use to, it's like the memorial. Honoring, yeah. Honoring, honoring, thank you. Honoring the, the yeah the families both the shooting if the families and on when the shooting happened and the the day that they forgave their uh enemy um after this how can people get a hold of film if they can't make it

to the theaters in june sure so the cool thing is definitely get in touch with us go to our website and if you have a church and you want to do a screening all right um that's a great way to do it because for me it's like that's why we made the films to bring people into a space where they can actually see each other have the hard conversations but also also they could pray together we've had amazing experiences where we've had people in theaters praying together after the film black and white um just apologizing um talking about how we can actually do this, how we can build real relationships and heal. But it'll be in the fall through Universal Pictures.

It'll be on iTunes and Amazon, all those platforms. And then from there on the streaming platform. Well, what's your website that they can go? They go to EmanuelMovie.com. EmanuelMovie.com. Okay, EmanuelMovie.com emmanuelmovie.com okay emmanuelmovie.com is this something that if a bunch of churches got together and wanted to come together in a large sanctuary and show it is that is this i'm just curious would this is this something are you gonna like be at any of these or something if it's a larger venue yeah i mean i'm i'm trying to make myself

available to do that just part of my stewardship for the film. So if you want me there, if it's helpful, and not just me, but family members, a significant amount of them have committed to show up at any opportunity. Are you serious? Seriously, man. So reach out to us. Let us know if there's a church or if you want to bring in Pauly Shepard, a survivor, Anthony Thompson, who is a reverend as well. I mean, there's opportunity for that. How far away is this from Richmond?

Richmond, Virginia. The church? Yeah. I don't know, actually. Not too far, driving distance, I think. I'm going to be in Richmond next fall at an event. I'm just thinking out loud. It'd be really cool to do something like this tacked on.

I don't know. Totally, man. That's what it's for. Yeah. For for yeah for sure well dude thanks so much for being on the show are you uh do you know what you're gonna be working on next i mean you've taken on some pretty heavy stuff i mean are you gonna take a break or maybe do a cartoon or something something fun yeah no probably not but i right now i am working on the kirk franklin biopic But right now I am working on the Kirk Franklin biopic for Sony. Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm working with Kirk trying to get his story off the ground, which is a really amazing story. And it's in many ways just a combination of my first two films. Okay. Kirk was abandoned as a kid and then went on through the black church to become an incredible witness for Christ and an amazing musician. So I think those things are coming together, but whatever God wants to do is that's what I'm going to do. Oh man. That's awesome, man. Well, dude, Brian,

thanks so much for being on the show again. It's Emanuel, the untold story of the Charleston church shooting, June 17th, June 19th. And the website is, remind me again, Emanuel movie.com. Movie.com. Emanuel movie.com. Thanks so much for being on Theology and Rob, Brianmanuelmovie.com? Movie.com. emmanuelmovie.com. Thanks so much for being on Theology with Rob, Brian, Mool. We'll have to do this again sometime.

Love it, dude. Thanks for having me. Thank you.