Theology in the Raw - 743: #743 - A Dialogue with an Intersex Christian

Episode Date: June 10, 2019

On episode #742 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with a intersex Christian. Christian is a cult survivor, missionary, and an intersex person with both male and female sex chromosomes and anatomy. Preston talks to Christian about what it is like living as both male and female in a binary world where sex-categories are typically male or female. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have on the show today a very, very special guest. I know I say I have a special guest on the show whenever I have a guest and they are all special in their own way, but this one is extra special as you will see why. My friend Christian is intersex. Christian was born with a condition whereby he or she has both male and female anatomy internally and externally. And Christian, my friend, is also a sold out believer in Jesus Christ. Christian is a fun person. Christian is an incredibly wise person. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time because I've hung out with Christian a few times and they have just challenged me,

encouraged me, been such a massive blessing in my life and open up categories for me that I didn't even realize existed. And so I want you to experience that same thing by listening and learning from my good friend, Christian. So welcome to the show for the first time, my friend Christian. We're going to be talking about intersex. We're going to be talking about binary-ness, male and female-ness. We're going to be talking about the church. We're going to be talking about the gospel and Jesus and all that fun stuff. So here we go. Let's dig into this conversation. We are live. Christian, thank you so much for being on Theology in the Raw. Why don't we start, let's just go back to, I want to go back because we've talked quite a bit about your story.

I want to start with your conversion, how you came to Christ because you were not raised at all in a Christian environment. to Christ because you were not raised at all in a Christian environment. And yet, as I recall, there was this conversation with a kind of pesky pastor, if I remember correctly, who just kept pursuing you. So yeah, just give us a little bit about your background and maybe center it on that kind of your conversion experience. Wow. Yeah. I do have a pretty rough background. And I'm glad this is conversation in the raw because I was really not a nice person. So it's neat for me to have the opportunity to share that. So yeah, going on 20 years or more ago, I was really in pretty rough shape. And because of just a really rough past, I was definitely suicidal because I knew that I was going to die one way or the other. And so I thought, hey, I'm going to do this.

And there was, I lived alone and had a dog and I would take my dog walking. And there was a pastor that lived in my neighborhood. And anytime I would walk my dog, he wanted to come out and talk to me and I didn't want to talk to him. So I would cross to the other side of the street. I was so ticked every time I saw that he was home. But when I knew that I was going to kill myself, I said, you know, I'm not going to do it without somebody knowing why. And so I ended up, I knew where he was a pastor and I went to his office and I just laid it out. And I said, I'm going to do this.

Don't try and stop me. If you do, I'm going to stop stop you and what ended up happening is I laid it all out for him and I went home and I was glad to see he didn't follow me and so I went home and I was preparing things at my house and putting my dog out in the backyard and all that kind of thing and there was a knock on the door and it's like oh he better not be here and sure enough went to the door and there he was and he just simply said do you really want out and I said yep I really do but you don't understand what you're talking about and he said that just shut up I asked you a question I'm like wow a pastor that will shut me up that's pretty cool he ended up shoving me on an airplane to halfway across the U.S. And there I had somebody pick me up.

And I didn't know these people, but they gave me a hotel room to stay in. And then after being there and safe for just a couple days, then I heard, okay, now it's time for your appointment. I'm like, my appointment? What kind of appointment? And they said, well, you know, your prayer appointment. And I was so livid. I was like, this is the help you're offering me, prayer. Really? You're going to pray for me and that's going to answer? I was so ticked. And he's like, hey, look, what do you got to lose? If at the end of this you decide to go back home, it's your prerogative.

I'm not going to stop you. I'm like, well, okay, I can do anything for a couple hours, right? So I went to the prayer appointment and there I really met Jesus. I had a prayer appointment where I was taken to the depth of my pain, but there I found Jesus Christ. And it was almost a vision kind of thing where I could see things I could I experienced I didn't just make a decision with my brain I experienced something at a heart and spirit level and at that moment I gave my life to Jesus Christ and that was a beautiful event but what took place thereafter was very difficult because just because when you try to leave a bad past doesn't mean that

they leave you alone. And so I had some really difficult times for a while, and I ended up very injured, very hurt. And on the couch in a pastor and his wife, the pastor who prayed for me and helped lead me to the Lord, in his living room on his couch for several days, really messed up. And that's when they came, because they were taking care of me, they came to understand my intersex state. Because up until that time, I just hid it from everybody. And when I kind of came to after a few days then they kind of came into my room and sat down and said you know we really need to talk because we've been taking care of you for a few days and there's some things you didn't tell us what the heck crap, the jig is up. Oh, man. And so they were the first people in my life that I voluntarily said, this is who I am.

And the pastor was so gracious to me and loving to me and said, look, I didn't understand that before, but I have one question for you. Who would you be if you were pretending to be what everybody thinks you are? And I said, I don't even know. And he said, right there, that's your goal. That's your job now. That's what you have to find out. And so for more than 20 years now, that pastor and his family and other people have been surrounding me, helping me on my journey and on my walk, both to freedom spiritually, but even to freedom living as an intersex person who is not hiding and trying to be someone else. And that has been so freeing, not only for my heart and my emotional state,

but a beautiful freeing time of learning even how God sees me. And so walking with this pastor and walking in a very deep spiritual walk with the Lord, I remember for quite some time really struggling and praying to God, God, why did you make me this way? You know what? I believe you can heal people. I've seen you do it. So, God, I'm intersex. I have both sets of organs.

This is not okay. So I'm telling you, Lord, I believe you can heal me. And so in Jesus' name, I'm asking for that. I don't care which way you heal me. Make me all male, make me all, I don't even care. Whatever you do, I will never complain again. Just please heal me one way or the other. And nothing happened.

And I started to get really uncomfortable. And again, the pastor friend who's been walking with me for years, he said, you know, maybe you're asking the wrong question. I said, wait, what is this wrong question business? And it's like, well, you know, when I'm asking for healing, maybe I'm asking the wrong question. So I turned the question around and I said, Lord, what do you say about this? Because this is my perspective, but what do you say? And I just sat in prayer and just tried to listen. And in that still small voice in my spirit said, there's nothing to heal. And I said, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are you talking about?

There's nothing to heal. Clearly, you know, my body, you know, who I am, you know what I am. And as you know, I just started kind of a prayer conversation with God where he revealed, really, there is nothing to heal. This is exactly how I've made you. I want you to live in the fullness of it. And so that's been kind of the big shift in my intersex journey of finding people who would walk with me who weren't ashamed of me, but then also recognizing God himself didn't make a mistake. Now my journey consists of living into everything he made me to be. And so it's different. It's a little different. Yeah. Christian, for our audience, can you maybe just a quick, quick, I mean, most people know what intersex is kind of, I think most Christians who might know what that means still have a lot of unclarity about what it means. So can you just maybe unpack what intersex is and then tell us what specific intersex condition do you have? Because I know it is quite rare in the kind of broad umbrella of intersex.

Yeah. So intersex is a condition whereby you have traits, and this is not mental or emotional, it's physical traits in your body, some mix of male, female. And so for many, and probably the majority of people with intersex conditions out there, their body can externally look one way, Their body can externally look one chromosomes and genes in one body. And so for me, mine really does have, I do have very mixed body parts. So I can sit across from somebody and say, look, I know this is hard for you to understand, but I have all the organs that you have. And I have some of the same organs your spouse has. And so exactly how does that work in society? Well, that's difficult. Because, you know, when you're talking about intersex conditions, many people lump them in with the L, G, and B on the alphabet soup. And for me, I don't really fit into that. I don't wish anybody any harm. I don't want to set myself apart from people. But at the same time, the issues that I

have in my life and in my body are not the same. And so that creates some difficulty. Because most of the time when people see me, they will do a double take. Yeah. They will look and they'll see what they assume to maybe be, well, sometimes they'll see a female and then they'll do a double take and say, oh my goodness, no. And then other times they'll go out of the corner there, I see a guy and then do a double take because of, you know, breasts and rounder features in my face and my body. And so it's a little bit strange. So when you wake up in the morning, do you, I mean, do you kind of decide like, Hey, I think I'm going to present as male today or female, or do you, have you forgotten that whole binary and

just said, I am who i am and i'm not going to worry about which category i'm going to try to fit in which i know in a binary world with bathrooms and you know uh you know we even talked about going through the scanners at the airport and if you get flagged you know who's is it going to be a man or woman that's going to you know pat you down and what are they going to find? I mean, your existence is minute to minute complicated. I mean, complicated in the sense that you have these binary categories that most people fit into naturally, but you simply don't. And I imagine you're reminded of that whenever you go out and walk outside the door. Can you tell us about that experience of being a biologically non-binary person in a

binary world? Like what's that, what does that feel like? I guess I asked several different questions there so you can pick whichever one. For me, I think it's, you know, I feel in my body very non-binary. I, you know, I have to do all the things that a woman would need to do to take care of her body, but I also need to take care of male issues and shaving and all that kind of stuff. So it's confusing. But for me, it's not really that confusing unless I compare myself to other people. It's in the comparison that there's pain. Wow. You know, so when I'm at home and I wake up in the morning, it's not painful.

I'm me. I have the body God gave me and I do what I need to do with the body I have. It's when I step out of the house. And it's, it really is true that I've come to realize how the rest of society seems to be able to take for granted their genderness. And for me, it's, it's every time I leave the house, it's when I go to the store, yesterday I need to buy sandals well my feet are kind of big for women and kind of small for guys but it's like even worse I have to go pick out shoes that I like and then take them to the counter where somebody looks at me like wait are these for you or for somebody else it's like just leave me alone I'm buying the damn shoes you know for the life of me i don't understand why when i go to get a haircut they're grappling

over whether why do hair salons have a men's price and a women's price really isn't it all just hair but you know everything right down to going to church. And you go to church and there is a men's room. And if I have to go to the bathroom, I live 20 minutes from my church. If I have to go to the bathroom, I have an agreement with one of my friends and I have to excuse myself to go to her house. Okay. Because there isn't a place for me at my church. And when I go to church, I love to praise the Lord.

I love to be there with my friends. And then comes the song with the men's verse. Men sing this verse. Women sing the next verse. verse men sing this verse women sing the next verse and my friends who know me they kind of quietly just glance out of the corner of their eyes to make sure I'm okay and it's like what am I gonna do I'm gonna sing neither verse and I often end up just crying oh gosh it's like this Oh, gosh. think one of the things that people misunderstand about intersex people is that sometimes people believe intersex to be people who are freakish or people who want attention or want to be something other than who they are and of the intersex people that I know, most of us would say, we just want to be left alone.

We aren't trying to flaunt anything. We're not trying to act like somebody we're not. We're just trying to live in a world that doesn't quite understand us, and that goes for the church and for Christians in general. Most of the time, the church doesn't know what intersex is. And so, for lack of knowing what it is, much of the church, at least much of the evangelical church is rather quick to assume that this is moral question, you know, like who, who I want, who I'm attracted to or who I want to sleep with. And it's like, this is not that please don't, don't do this. So I'm curious, what are some of the, um, maybe more hurtful, you're kind of getting there, but some of the hurtful misunderstandings that Christians have, just out of, you know, unintentional things that people say or do or assume, or even questions people ask that might be a little invasive. Like, what are some things that the church does that is, you know, that they can maybe stop doing that would be helpful for you?

Of course, I can only speak from my experience. I can't speak from everybody's church experiences. But I think for me, some of the great gender divide in the church, I don't think they understand how painful that is for people who are not very clearly gendered. that is for people who are not very clearly gendered so it's very painful for me that in my church there are men's Bible studies and women's Bible studies and there isn't another unless I'm in recovery and need a 12-step program. And that's not me either. And so I don't know why the church feels such, I think it's fear over genders mixing, even in social ways or in Bible study ways. It's like, it's something very important to have a men's Bible study and a women's Bible study, but that leaves people like me out of both. Well, people like you, but also because somebody could say, well, okay, but that's such a rare condition, but it's like, well, let's expand

that a little bit. I know a lot of people that don't have an intersex condition, but just simply don't really resonate with the kind of the stereotypes of what a man's Bible study is or a woman's Bible study. I think that there is a, even if sex is set, biological sex is largely, let's just say largely binary for most people. Absolutely. The stereotypes are not, you know, like what it means to be, to live out your maleness or femaleness, or in your case, a blend of both. What that looks like on the ground is really flexible and gray.

So I think when we just assume kind of a real rigid behavioral binary, I think that's what makes it difficult for a lot of people, actually. makes it difficult for a lot of people actually. Yeah. I think one of the other things, and we're kind of touching on it too, is that people often assume that people who are intersex are a threat. So, and it's kind of strange to say it that way, but, you know, for the pastor couple that I continue to be in close relationship with and friendship with, if I go out and get a Coke with the guy, the pastor, people look at him and say, hey, is he going around with some other woman? Or is this a gay thing? If they think I'm a guy, then all of a sudden it's like, is this a gay thing if they think I'm a guy then all of a sudden it's like is this a gay thing it's like stop it stop if I go out somewhere and grab a cup of coffee with his wife yeah I feel a little awkward and I'm worried about what people are saying about her and what and it's I

very early on in the time that I was with that pastor family and walking with them, he actually had people in his church say that I was there to break apart his marriage. And it's like, why are you assuming just because I'm intersex that the sex part is really active? Because of the kind of intersex that I am, I have very low libido. I don't have a lot of, you know, strong desire. I'm not a very sexual person. I do like intimate conversations and relationships where there's closeness and we talk about deep spiritual things and about heartfelt things. But I'm really not looking for partners. Stop it. But people really do assume that whoever I'm with, I'm wrong.

on same-sex marriage. Look, I'll be honest, I'm conservative in my theology and in my beliefs on that. And so for me, I look and say, I generally tend toward the marriage to the opposite sex, but I have to ask you then, what is the opposite sex to me? the opposite sex to me. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Do you, yeah. So, I mean, your condition is, is, is fairly unique. I mean, do you, do you feel or identify as slightly more male one day or slightly more female, or is it truly like those categories just don't make sense? I don't, I don't switch like that from day to day. What I can say is, you know, that the thing that I told you that God talked to me about very early on, you know, is living who he made me to be. That kind of speaks into my sexuality, whatever low level of sexuality I do have. It's like I have the desire to use the body parts God gave me. Right. Which, what does that mean? Right, exactly. So, you know, so it's like, yes, I have male organs.

And sometimes that would, that thought really does cross my mind, and I would like to explore that and feel that. At the same time, I have female organs right back behind those male organs, and it's like, so what does it mean for someone like me? What is the opposite sex to me? Does that mean somebody that has nothing? I don't get it. So, but you know, the church would like to quickly stand up and have an opinion. I'm going to say that honestly, the church would like to stand up and have an opinion and say, you should look at this person or that person based on who they think I am, whether it's they're noticing that I have breasts. So they'll assume then I need to be looking for a guy.

Or if they see the rest of my life that I probably appear more male than female much of the time. much of the time and so then those well so their opinion is gonna drive who i could or could not marry wait what whose say is it is it really their say and so it becomes a really tricky thing when you're intersex because people's assumptions are what kills you i just think i mean i would love to know yeah what what people think you should or shouldn't do. In my view, we have these categories, male, female. We have marriage. We have all this stuff. But there are some people that simply don't fit those categories.

So for me, I mean I think I even told you this. For me, it's like flip a coin. I think you have the freedom to no really i mean i don't think there is any other legitimate biblical you know answer that people can give no it must be this or that it's like based on what you know i think of like is bad should christians get baptized well of course okay what about the thief on the cross okay well that that's that's you know a unique example where it's like yeah i think i think the dude saved even though there was no water up at the cross that he was you know dying on so um we do have exceptions to the rule we do have rules but do you realize how i am i am probably more obviously intersex than most intersex people are. Sure.

Because most intersex people that you would see walking down the road or in the grocery store, for one, you wouldn't know they're intersex. Right. But for two, you can't see under people's clothes. Right. You don't know what's there. Right. And there too comes for some people for some of society that

becomes the threat and and yet it's like look you don't know what's really under somebody's clothes or what's in their heart or how god made them god knows and so you the best thing you can do for somebody who's challenged and it doesn't matter if this is intersex or really even trans you don't know because i know some people who they started out their teenage and early 20s thinking that they were trans and it was only in the course of getting medical evaluation for hormone replacement therapy or whatever, that they learned, oh, I have an intersex trait. There's a reason why my outside doesn't match my inside.

But again, if the church and Christians and society are going to make bold statements about, well, you should not have this kind of hormone replacement therapy, or you should not have a relationship with this kind of person. It's like, you have to admit, dear Christian friends of mine, you have to admit, you don't really know what's going on in their hearts, in their lives, in their chromosomes, even. And so I think, you know, you've talked about it in many of your materials. The biggest thing you need to do is walk with someone. Because if somebody has an opinion about who I should have a relationship with or something like that, it's like walk with me through this. Pray with me and ask God with me. Don't just stand as a spectator on the side and

lob your opinions at me. Yeah. Yeah. That's because you don't have any skin in the game. You are with me in it. I can't value that input. When you say, I mean, do people receive that? To me, that just makes so much sense. Like to me, it's like, of course. But do people still have a hard time? Is it still this fear, this like these categories and if somebody doesn't fit in, their circuits are just kind of blown, they don't know what to do? Or when people hear that, it's like, oh, my gosh, yes, you're right. I need to just walk with people, especially people that aren't fitting in these categories. Well, I think part of the problem is you don't actually know.

You don't know who doesn't fit. You don't know how to approach somebody. You know, you can't just walk up to somebody that looks gender confused and say, hi, can I walk with you in life? It's like, creep, creep, back away, back away. Hey, you look non-binary. Can I? Gosh. Wow. So you, so, I mean, intersex is obviously a huge part of your life. You're also a missionary. Like you've been a missionary for a number of years.

Tell us about that and how maybe your intersex – I've been saying the word condition. I want to make sure I use language that's humanizing. When I say intersex condition, is that appropriate? I'm not that easily offended. So it might offend some people. I don't know. But for me, I'm okay. What would be

another alternative uh inter intersex i mean it's more than just identity i mean um intersex yeah because i yeah i don't know yeah okay let's just go with how about we just keep going though okay how does your uh intersex uh condition play into your missionary work? Like, is it an issue in all the various countries you go into? Or is it maybe the opposite? Could it be like an open door in certain cultures that I wouldn't necessarily have? Well, so I'm a missionary actually on three different continents although I don't really exactly think that that North America is one of my highest uh areas but there you go anyway so I I do work um in two other continents

and in those places what I actually find is intersex is less of an issue than it is here in the States. For me, it is much harder to live here than it is when I'm in other places. And so, you know, there are times where really across the globe, people know about intersex more than we do. And I do look at that and say part of it is because of our fear of anything that's different so if you have something different you just don't talk about it and it becomes something to hide but the other part is of course for intersex people sex people, most people with intersex conditions, especially from the 60s, 70s, 80s, you know, that time period, surgery was the immediate, you have surgery to normalize things. And so many people, and this is why I, to some some extent have a heart even for trans folks out there because there are many people who have had surgery and they don't

really understand it and they just know I don't know there was a lot that happened when I was a kid and I know I'm not what my body says and so that can be really hard and it has to be navigated carefully. But when I go internationally, it's still rare, no matter where I go. There are some places, some tribes in Africa, some places in Asia, where this is actually relatively common. And so recently I was talking with a pastor's wife in Africa and talking to her and she said, and I actually, she didn't really know or understand. And again, it just so doesn't matter as much there. as much there. So I kind of explained, you know, since we're going to be working together, you need to know a little bit more about me because if people have questions, they're not going to come to me. They're going to go to you. And so I explained a little bit to her. She said, oh yeah,

you know, in our town a while back, we had a mother who had a baby with mixed gender. And I said, oh, really? Where's the baby now? Oh, no, no, no. They killed it. It's like, oh. You know, so they know about it because when that happens, it's not covered up exactly. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that it's accepted. And in other places in the world, in Asia, there are cultures where it is both revered as, wow, this is something special from the gods. But also, it's still shunned as, yeah, it's still shunned as, yeah, we stay away from them or we look down on that. So it's a little bit confusing. But nonetheless, when I'm in ministry in these different places,

I've made it a practice that if there are going to be people that we're going to work with kind of longer term, then I make sure that they know so that it's not a surprise later right and you know it's always been accepted very very well do people ever in the states that it's not accepted very well in the states or outside the states do people ever just blatantly ask you like are you are you a man or a woman like did they yes forthright yes people do that mostly though they're people under the age of six you know kids they'll just come and ask anything and so kids will come up and ask are you a boy or a girl and it's like yes they're like what it's like no uh sweetie there really are some people that are born both if you need to know more go ask your mother and the moms in the quarters thinking like what in the world right but it's true that that it's usually children because they don't think to edit that, you know.

But there have been some adults, but not usually people that I'm walking in relationship with. It'll be, you know, some policeman stops the car and says, wait, what? Are you a man or a woman? You know, or just somebody who in some of these languages, I can hear it, and they don't know that I know what they're talking about. So they will turn and ask somebody that's in the vehicle with me, wait, is this a man or a woman? So there is some difficulty with that. And yet, it's not nearly as binary as here. And here, there, there really does seem to be something in American culture that is almost afraid of people like me, and I don't understand it. I think there's some urban legend kind of stuff going on.

Because even with things like the bathroom bills and things like that that are difficult topics, there's a whole lot of urban legend in this. Because, you know, I was talking with a friend just, I don't know, a week or two ago and said, you know, look, let's be honest. You do a lot of counseling for people. You know, how many people out there that you counsel have been sexually abused? And it's like, wow, really, actually, unfortunately, a high percentage of people. And it's like, right. And it's like, right. So of those people, what percentage would you say are people who were sexually abused in a public bathroom? Oh, well, now very, very low percentage. And then it's like, OK, so let's ask honestly, of those people who have ever been touched or molested in a public bathroom,

been touched or molested in a public bathroom, what would you say is the percentage of people who have ever been touched in a public bathroom by somebody posing as the opposite sex? It's like, I don't know of one. I've never heard one case. And yet this becomes the threat that society throws around that, you know, if we're not careful, we're going to have men in the women's room and girls, women in the men's room. And this just, it's unsafe. And it's like, look, again, if you ever see me anywhere near a public bathroom, I am the one that needs to be afraid, not you. And by having a bathroom bill or things like that, that say you must, you know, go by the gender on your birth certificate or something, you are guaranteeing that people that look like me will be in the bathrooms with your girls or your boys. girls or your boys it's like this is it's very serious that we really need to be careful what fear we're swirling around that doesn't actually have real basis to it which i'm curious where do you go if you have to go in public i mean do you just kind of pick it flip a coin again to go in public, I mean, do you just kind of pick it, flip a coin again and go in and what,

what is your experience going into gendered bathrooms? I don't, you know, literally I don't. Because it doesn't matter if I have to fly to the other side of the world, I will wait until I get on the plane when it's not a gendered bathroom. I will. And it's unfortunate, my team members that travel all over the world with me know I will end up sick and really, really in rough shape before I'll end up in a public bathroom. And it's not a good thing. And so it does have physical implications and it does do damage to my body. But I can't get past that part of the social anxiety of it.

Would it help if you had a couple of friends, say it was me and another male buddy and then you and we all went together so you're just not alone and we can kind of add social covering to you with something like that I'm just thinking out loud here I don't know like is that it's possible um you know what I most hope for of course is it it is becoming a little bit more commonplace to have either intersex or there will be a men's room and a women's room and a handicap right and and it's a single stall single lock even in some airports and things like that. But for Pete's sake, you know, Chicago O'Hare is probably one of the worst airports I know. It's like for one of the biggest, it's one of the worst airports I know because they even have the handicap single stall bathrooms and they're locked.

Like management or something has them locked. And you can sit outside that bathroom waiting for somebody to come out. There's no one coming out. And airlines too, you know, the airport security check, as you mentioned, and we've talked about before, that's a terribly humiliating and dangerous feeling place. And so for me, being international and being a missionary, I love what I do. I find the people are very accepting internationally. I hate traveling to get to them because that's where, for me, it's the most difficult. The airports and the travel with public bathrooms being a necessity and things like that and you mentioned uh trans a few times i want i've yeah a few questions um sure because oftentimes in my

in the work that i do um intersex is often brought up not as a human category to be explored on a relational level, but more as an ideology or like almost like the existence of intersex persons, in my experience, can sometimes be weaponized to argue for one particular ideology. And then sometimes, you know, it can go both, both ways on that. How, how does that make you feel as a person where this isn't just an argument, you're not an argument, you're a person. And yet sometimes intersex is often brought in to as an argument. Have you experienced that? And how does, how does, how does that make you feel?

I guess I'm not sure exactly what you're, what you're referring to but i think um you know i know that i you know i treat trans issues um very carefully yeah because i think that it really is true sometimes this is not necessarily the way god made someone it can be a construct for some reason. I understand that. At the same time, I do know 100% that there are people out there who they don't know they have an intersex condition. Because most intersex conditions, you may, I mean, there are very few of them that are caught when somebody's a child. Right. They catch it because something's obvious.

Yeah. Like in my case. But for the majority of people out there, they might find out when they go through puberty and all their friends are going through puberty and they don't or something like that but there are a number of people who are trans who may or may not actually have an intersex condition that's undiagnosed and so i can't say this person you know if you're trans you you must live the way that's in alignment with your body i i can't say that because I don't know what was done to your body to make it that way. A friend of a friend, well, it was a parent with a biological daughter is exactly what you're talking about. The daughter grew up, identified as trans as a teenager. Then later on, they found out that while the daughter was a biological female, she had

basically a male endocrine system. So she had the hormone levels of a man, even though the body of a female, the hormone levels were off the chart and very male and estrogen levels, very male. So that would, that would be an example of a non-visible intersex conditions, which was clearly related to her you know right and so if you have somebody who appears to be female rather you know slight in features and appears to be female and even if stripped naked looks female but later on because of infertility or something else they do all kinds of tests and find out oh there's a gonad you know undescended testes there and they test the chromosomes and this is chromosomally a male but in mother's womb there was not

either the test of testosterone was rejected or the mother didn't produce the right whatever. And so, you know, this little baby started growing as female. But when the chromosomes say male, when you have an undescended testes and you have somebody who says, I know everybody says she, I can't explain why, but I know I'm a guy. What are you going to say? But wait, by the time you meet this person, you don't know about medical stuff. You don't know what surgeries this child had as an infant. You don't know about what gonads are not gonads. You know nothing.

All you know, as most church people and most people in society, all you know is this person looks female. You don't even see under their clothes. So you don't really know. But looks female and says, but I'm a guy inside. Now, why are we making the judgment call? It's not a call. Yeah. And so I think we have to be really careful in society and especially in the church, because let's be honest, you don't really know. Do you, I mean, do you get the opportunity to meet other intersex people more than the average person?

I mean, and how? Like, just do people come out to you and say, hey, you look intersex. I think I am too. Can we talk? What does that look like practically? No. Thank God for technology and the internet. That's a good thing in this day and age.

Yes, it has many problems and it can cause problems in people's lives. But before this generation where you have the internet, it really was true. If you were an intersex person, you would probably never meet another person like you. Because even if you did, you wouldn't know it. So that kind of thing. you because even if you did you wouldn't know it so that kind of thing but now with the internet there are places to connect there are places to find other people but also once a year there is a intersex conference kind of a gathering and so last year was actually my first year of being in the country during the time they were having it. So I went and met with people at that. And, you know, to sit in a room with hundreds and hundreds of people like me. And, you know, my particular condition called chimerism is really very rare.

And so it's been estimated, again, statistics. Why do people make statistics that they can't prove? But they said, you know, in the whole world at any given point in time, there might be three or four people like me. Well, we got to the Intersex Conference last year, and there were five of us in one room. Because it was very interesting early on in the conference, it's my first time. And so somebody said something about, you know, what is your diagnosis? And I told him, I maybe never heard of it. This is the name of it. And they're oh my goodness are you kidding there's other people like that and it pointed to several in the room and i just my jaw hit the floor it's like

this these these people know what this is they know what this is like they know my life you know until so it wasn't at all a christian group or anything like that and yet i found a good strong group of christians in it and other people who are saying yeah you know what i i love the lord but i really hate church and i'm like me too so to find to find those places where you know you can find people not only who know your pain and know your life, but also know and are in a pursuit to say, I'm not a mistake. Yeah. And that's one of the beautiful things because, you know, it's true that intersex people can grapple a lot with if there is a God and if he created me, why did he make such a big mistake? And so to be with other people and talk about God and how

he made me this way, I'm not a mistake. And now my goal is to come to know him and to live my life in alignment with his purposes for me. That's been huge. And that's really encouraging to other intersex people as well. Wow. Yeah. Real quick, pronouns. I meant to ask this earlier. Do you have a preference?

Wow. meant to ask this earlier do you have a preference or wow well I can say that the people who walk closest with me will most often say he unless we're in public and uh when we're in public they kind of try to revert to as few pronouns as possible and they will just keep repeating the name Christian instead. So that's always a little strange, but, um, do you have a preference? And when people get to know that I have an intersex condition, that question often comes up and I like to just put people at ease and say, thank God I'm not somebody who's very easily offended by these things. But I said, look, let's be honest. If you say she, you're kind of right. And if you say he, you're pretty right too. But you know, I know for the majority of intersex people, they really do feel one way. Okay. They really, yeah. And so so um you know just follow their lead and if you see

them flinching when you give a pronoun if you see them kind of flinch in pain just talk to them that's the one thing i can say for intersex people is rather than assume anything, ask. Rather than tiptoe around something, ask. Because it's not people questioning me that is painful to me. It's people assuming something and going with it. That can be so painful. So for you, you don't have a strong preference. You just appreciate when people ask you, hey, what do you prefer? And you're kind of like, it doesn't really matter.

Well, when it comes to pronouns in public, I just go with whatever people are saying. I mean, if I'm in the grocery store and they say, hello, ma'am, or sir, you know, whatever. I don't make a big deal out of it. I don't try to make them feel foolish. And if I'm with somebody who says she, I really do just say, yeah, they're kind of right. They're kind of wrong too, but they're kind of right. And so I don't have to make an issue out of correcting them. Right. How do you feel? I'm curious when people, well, what are you comfortable when people say that God creates,

God has a hand in creating every person. And yet we do live in a fallen world and therefore intersex conditions are both, you know, you're created by God, you're creating God's image, but then your condition is part of the fall. Is that offensive or how do you process that? It's so painful. Really? Okay. It's just painful. You know, I know there were

times in history, I don't know if it's still happening, but I know in history when, you know, know if it's still happening but i know in history when you know people who were um native american indian or african american or just black let's just be honest black where they were termed well you know they're the cursed ones or something it's like wow how do you suppose that feels you know yeah and so when people say yeah you know it's a fallen world and so this is part of the fall that is so painful because you're relegating this to sin and the result of sin when you know i i forget who it was it's someone like historically among Judaism I think who was the first one that I heard say that they kind of look at it and say look we go back to Genesis 1 and 2 God created Adam and Eve very gendered got. I understand that. But is that really true? Because before God created Eve, God created Adam and took Eve out of him.

So who was Adam before Eve was taken out? And it's like, I tend to look at it, and especially based on what God spoke to my spirit years ago, he made me this way. This is not a mistake. He's taking credit for it. That doesn't sound like the fall to me. And I'm not saying that there aren't issues. Yes, definitely. I have issues in my life from the fall. And yes, I absolutely believe that I was born with Adam stuff from the fall. And so I get that. under i'm not saying it and standing on it as you know this is what it means but you do have to ask yourself the question who was adam before eve was taken out of him yeah and did that original look a little bit more like me than you might be comfortable with well there is an interpretation of genesis one i don't find it particularly convincing, but where people would say that in Genesis 1, in the image of God, he created them, male and female, he created him, or, you know,

the pronouns there are kind of shaky, but some people would say that in Genesis 1, you have basically an androgynous or a blend male-female human person, and then in Genesis 2 is when they're split apart. So it's more consequential so that the creation of humanity 1 is prior to 2, whereas I think most people would say they're kind of two different looks at the same event, which I think is more credible. But there is, yeah, within Judaism and even in some Greek philosophy you have in Plato, you know, the splitting of the human person. And some people aren't quite split. They're just left as they are.

And so you do have all the way back. I mean, as far as we can go, people trying to make sense of intersex people, which have always been around. In fact, in the ancient world, when clothing was a bit more optional, You know, intersex people were more visible. And in ancient literature, you see a lot more conversations about it than you would even today. You know, like you said, a lot of people don't even know what intersex is today. In the ancient world, I think it was a category. They didn't call it intersex, but I mean, it was a category that was much more. They did understand it.

Oh, yeah. Well, and even where I do ministry in some very remote places, they don't know it by the name intersex. And yet they do recognize even some remote tribes will say, yeah, there are some people who are born some way and you're not quite sure. And it's like, so what do you do? And it's like, you know what? I've never had those tribes say we do we do surgery never once any of those tribes say we take them to have surgery it's like what do you do you masai people in in kenya and in tanzania what do you do well we leave them alone until they grow up they'll tell tell us who they are. That's the approach

I take, and who am I? But as I look on from the outside, that makes more sense to me. Would you say unless there is a health something that is that needs to be where surgery needs to happen for health reasons?

I have a friend with a child who had a very mild intersex condition, but for health reasons. Like I have a friend with a child who had a very mild intersex condition, but for health reasons, they needed to operate very early on. It didn't seem like it was a desire to stuff this person in a binary, which there I would say if there's no health risks and let the person decide when they're older, whether or not they want surgery. But do you hear what you're saying though? Because even I hear you agreeing with me, and yet there really is a big debate out there about, well, can intersex or trans people have surgery?

reassignment surgery or a sex affirming surgery or something like that. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, let's, let's be honest. If a baby is born mixed, I agree. Unless there's a medical emergency region, let them be right. But most people in society, they might think that's ideal, but if their baby is born that way, or their daughter or their son all of a sudden has a baby born that way, I'm telling you, they might not announce it to everybody, but they're going to the doctor saying, fix it, fix it fast. So somewhere we're saying, if a child is born, like, as early as early as possible quick fix it for society's benefit but the very same surgery if you wait till later in life for somebody who's trans or somebody who's intersex who says you know what i just want to be normal in society please let me be normal in society we're going to say, no, no, no. You shouldn't do that.

It's like, we can't have, we can't have it both ways. We need to be able to say, you know, you can't say, yes, definitely, you know, parents should be allowed to have surgery for their children. But then if that adult later says, I think the surgery went the wrong way. Nope, you cannot do it. You cannot, you cannot. It would be against God. You can't do that. But you know, you're talking specifically about intersex persons, not people with gender

dysphoria who don't have, let's just say they've been examined and they have no intersex condition but they may still how do you know well i mean unless they've had chromosomal testing you don't know yeah that's part of the confusion of it is we think it's very easy to find out you you think it's very easy to know whether this is a body thing or a mind thing and it's just not always that easy but let's just so I think it's part of that thing where please walk with people don't stand as a spectator and lob in your opinions walk with them because you know even for me if somebody didn't understand what was under my clothes, because I ain't flaunting it.

So if you didn't understand what's under my clothes and you didn't know me and I wasn't open with you about it, what opinion would you have about me? You would probably say, you know, yeah, this is a moral issue. And if you take any kind of medication, oh, you should not be taking any kind of hormones. And of my past, I stopped all medications. I stopped everything. And, you know, 20 years into a lifestyle with no medications and no external help for my body, my intersex body, my organs were starting to give me problems. I was having heart irregularity. My kidneys were messed up. My, like my system was shutting down because my body was treating myself like an allergy. Wow. So it's like, I needed people who are walking with me saying, let's pray about this. Let's see,

you know, and I had a wonderful doctor who said, let's walk together. Let's try some things. And let's see what your body really needs. But if I went just by the opinion of well-meaning, I'll give them that. But well-meaning Christians around me who would say, no medications, no medications, you know, I could be dead by now. So it really is have people who will walk with me. I will face things together. We'll pray about them together. We'll talk about things together. But yeah, it's, you know, Brene Brown talks in her book, Daring Greatly, about, or Rising Strong, one of the two books, about, you know, people, spectators who stand, sit in the cheap seats of the arena, and they will lob their opinions, but they aren're not down in the arena with me sweating it out bleeding with me in the fight with me I cannot listen to your opinion

on this and so I really I hear that and it resonates with me because if someone's willing to get in this with me wrestle with it pray with me about it talk with me even explore for me or with me what are the medical implications what could happen what changes what all these things somebody who will walk with me through this man that creates the kind of fellowship and the kind of bonding that not only do I need, but the balance for somebody else outside to speak into my life and say, you know what, this isn't okay. Or, wow, I can totally see this. Yeah, let's take some steps together.

Let me, this is really so incredibly helpful. incredibly helpful. So let me try to, I want to, based on what you just said there, getting, walking with somebody, relational, not just lobbing opinions or having opinions from a distance, you're with the person. If somebody does that, they walk in with you, they're committed for life, and maybe even there's some disagreement on some of the theology of this. Would you say that when there's relational commitment, then there can be more space for a more theological conversation? I want to return back to when I said that if somebody believes that intersex is ultimately a condition of the fall. If somebody is, let's just say some of these, the pastor friends, your missionary friends, whatever,

they are 100% committed to you. They're not scared of you. They value you. They delight in you, all this stuff. And then you happen to find out that, oh, they also do believe that intersex conditions are a result of the fall. Does that make a big difference rather than hearing it from a distance, some pastor from a stage that has no desire to walk with you saying intersex is a condition from the fall? Does that make a difference when there's relational collateral there or does it still hurt when people say that?

Oh, that's a tough question because if I'm honest with you the people that have walked together with me all all of the ones who I consider to be really close friends with me and have walked together with me for years one of the very beautiful things that happen it happens is not only when you walk together with people not only do they get to know you at a very personal level, but when you have people who will pray with you through something, God, by his Holy Spirit, has a very unifying effect. So that even if my friends who walk with me kind of think, yeah, you know what, that's probably not a choice that I would make,

they have grace given by God to walk with me. And you know what, at times if they say to me, you know what, I need to tell you the truth, I think something you're doing is a big mistake, God gives me grace for that. But also, because of the relationship, I'm so secure in the relationship, that I'm not ready or willing to walk away from that relationship. Do you know what I mean? It's like if, if, if a stranger on the street walked up to you and said, Oh, you got a big booger on your nose. And it's like, that, um, okay, take care of that and walk away.

I never have to see these people again. But if you have somebody in your life, your, your spouse or somebody who walks with you through life and that kind of thing and has to turn to you and say, you know, this is really bad. You need to take care of that. It's like, this is not something to break relationship over. Yeah. Right. And so at some level, when I've had friends who talk and pray with me through really difficult

times, there are times where, you know, even I have one particular friend who, yeah, he really doesn't see things eye to eye with me. And I have the grace and I love him anyway. And he loves me anyway. And we don't agree on this issue, but you know what? It doesn't, it doesn't stop me in a heartbeat from going, if there's ever an issue, I can call on him. And if ever he's having a Memorial Day party, he can call on me and say, come over. There's no hesitation. And so that's where the relationship actually ministers grace to both parties. And it really is true. When I found those friends who will walk with me and pray with me through anything, then even if I hear something from God that kind of

sounds like that's not okay, I also then have friends with me who will help me walk through the repentance or the, you know, whatever change I need to make. And so what ends up happening is not only is the friendship solidified at really deep levels, but we both are ministered grace by God, by his Holy Spirit. So that we walk together and we come to really beautiful places together. And you know, I think even you and I, Preston, we've had some discussions, and clearly there's some things I probably think that you don't agree with, and some things that you maybe think that I don't agree with, but I wouldn't hesitate a minute to give you a call if there was something needed. And it's like, it's okay to have a different opinion. Just don't hurt me with it.

And I would think the same thing. You know, it's okay if you have a different opinion. I think we can continue to walk together because even in our differences, I think we'll come to greater clarity. That's such a good word. Yes. I know for me and I know for you and I know other well-intended people, we're trying to figure this out. and let's just include gender and intersex and this whole umbrella topic. It's complicated. We're so ignorant. And if, as we are pursuing truth and relationships and what does God say, and how does this person experience life and how can I walk with this person? And what does Genesis mean? You know, like, I think these are all important interactions we need to have with a posture of patience and humility. Patience meaning it may take a while, maybe 10 years before I'm like, okay, I think I might have this a little bit more figured out on a theological level. 50 other people to really understand the relational dynamics of this. And from my vantage point, it seems like if people are simply pursuing that with the spirit

of patience, humility, and always centered on the relationship and person, like that is our ultimate goal is how can I walk with this person? And how can this person that I'm walking with push me to be more like Jesus? Like I just, I've told this story about you, Christian. I'll I haven't even told you this, but when we hung out at that sports bar in the city, we were hanging out in you, do you remember what you were doing that night where you went from there?

I mean, it was, it was like 10 at night. I was tired. You were tired. Do you remember what you did that night? Nope. You had a friend, you had a friend in the hospital and you were going to sit in a chair all night. Oh, yeah, that was hospice, yeah, at his home. I was sitting in his chair that night helping him as he's taking his rest. You're staying up basically being available all night to another human being in need and praying for the person by yourself, with them, whatever. And I was just blown away thinking like,

I've got a slew of other non-intersex friends, you know, who would never do that. And it's like, to me, that, that is, that's where everything flows from, you know, and you, I'm seeing this incredible story and we didn't get into your past and we won't get into your past, but I mean, it's, I, I, I don't know if I've heard a story like your, your, your personal story. We didn't get into your past, and we won't get into your past, but I mean, I don't know if I've heard a story like your personal story, and seeing your conversion and your walk with Christ, and in the midst of putting up with daily, daily trials that the average person wouldn't be able to handle, and yet you are giving your life to people.

You're giving life to the gospel. I'm like, oh my gosh, can you be my pastor? If you were in full-time ministry, I would race to your church. People are like, wait, is this Paul? I'm like, what do you mean? This person is walking faithfully in the midst of trials that most people would never even conceive of. And yet you are, and you say, look, I'm not all you.

It's cracked up to be. But I mean, I feel like I'm in the presence of God when I'm in your presence. And for me, whatever theological thing we're working through or what role is a follow player, this, that, or is transitioning ever okay, whatever. I mean, these are all important questions, but when done in the context of relationship i think i don't know i'm just all i'm saying is like what you're saying about relationship to me is huge and i think you know i i don't want to take too much of your time but one of the things that i would really challenge you with even when you're when you're talking to others about, I don't,

I don't know how much it is about orientation stuff as much, but with regard to gender things, I think I have a question for society really. And for the church and for you is why, why do we have to have strong opinions I mean why is it what why do we even as a church have to have strong opinions on hormone replacement therapy or surgery surgery, it's really painful to me when people standing from the outside believe that they have a say and believe that their opinion, it sounds bad, they believe their opinion matters. You know, in my life, I am very clearly non-binary in society. Whether you have the

opinion that I should have surgery to get rid of breasts or to get rid of a penis, I don't care what your opinion is. You don't have a say. I have to take hormones in my life because when I don't, the male hormones and the female hormones, they do not like each other. And so that's where it started to destroy some of my organs. If I don't take some kind of hormones, my body will destroy itself. I'm sorry. Your opinion doesn't matter. I can imagine. So I think in life, why, why do we make this an issue that the church needs to talk about what's okay or isn't? And I think I said it to you when we were at that sports bar, I said, look, Preston, if, if tomorrow, I don't know your wife, I've never seen your wife. If tomorrow, your wife wanted to have breast augmentation surgery,

are we going to talk about this among the churches and the denominations about whether she's allowed to or not? All of us would turn to you and say Preston it's nobody's business that's between you and your wife that's you know it's like I may have an opinion about what I think it's not my business to talk into that I don't know and if tomorrow you were in an accident and all of your male organs were damaged am i going to say oh well you should just have everything constructed and just start living life as a female not my call um you know really you should have surgery to reconstruct all of those organs so that you can live a happy life it's like like, not my call, not my business. Are you a doctor?

Somehow in the church, we're having conversations about whether people can or can't have surgery, whether people can or can't have hormones. And it's like, I'm sorry, why is this an opinion that the church needs to have? I have a lot of thoughts on everything you're saying. I would say mostly in agreement. I do have other – I would have some counter – not counter. It's other questions I would bring in. It's okay. You can have counter thoughts.

I'm okay with that. No, no. But I think we're over time now. And yeah, let's pick it up again. Because I think it's too important. I don't want to rush it at the end because I do have some questions. Not like, yeah, but what about this? But actual genuine questions like, Christian, what about this?

Like, what are your thoughts? Like, I actually want to explore this with you and learn from you because I think you're raising incredibly good questions. this with you and learn from you because I think you're raising incredibly good questions. I can 100% affirm that when people have, let's just say, opinions that just are informed, you know, like they have opinions and it's like, why do you have that opinion? And why do you have such a strong opinion about this? You don't even know what you're talking about. You're not a medical doctor. You're not a theologian. You're not whatever. Like you haven't actually done a lot of thinking or even reading or let alone talking to other people about this and yet people do have strong opinions that it's just unmatched by evidence that's where i get even if your opinion

might be right if it's uninformed i'm like you better understand i think that's the key isn't it it's the uninformed thing yeah because even with regard to marriage or anything else, it's like, it doesn't mean that we don't have an opinion. It doesn't mean that we don't have standards. I think that it's important and I think it's a God thing to have those. But I also think you have to be walking close enough with people that you really know who they are in their situation. Otherwise, you really have no grounds are in their situation. Otherwise, you really have no grounds to speak into that. No, that's it. Cool. Interesting. Christian, I can't thank you enough for this. I imagine some people listening to this,

there's several thousand. So there's going to be at least a few that either are intersex and know it, probably a number of people who are intersex and don't know it. Maybe a parent with an intersex person. They were like, oh, my gosh, I would love to get a hold of this person and talk with them. Is that something you, is this like a side ministry you have walking with people that are walking through this? Or if somebody wanted to get a hold of you, is that something that they could do? I actually would absolutely value talking to people. And so I'll get you some information on how that can happen. And so, yeah, if you don't mind filtering it through your office or something like that, that'd be good.

But, you know, I think I do like to meet and talk with intersex people. I do meet with some people on the Internet that way. OK, but it just seems that lately it's gotten really, really hectic. And so I would like to, I think, scale back into just speaking with people one on one or conversing with them in a bit more privacy over email or something like that. But yeah, absolutely. I really do value walking with others who are on this journey. Awesome. Yeah. So get you some info on that. So if you're listening, you can contact me through Chris at Chris at PrestonSpringle.com. That's C-H-R-I-S at Prestpressonsprinkle.com and yeah, for you Christian, I'll be somewhat of a filter, you know, if it's just some random

person who says, hey, I've got a question or I've got an argument, I will screen out all that. I want to meet intersex people! It's like, no! Well, thank you again for being on Theology of the Rock Christian. We'll have to do this again again and thank you so much for your ministry

your heart for the gospel your missionary endeavors and for putting up with us other Christians who act in a lot of ignorance sometimes so I just want to apologize for the offensive things you've had to tolerate in the church I can only imagine what that's like thanks let's just work on that, okay?

All right. Take care. you