Theology in the Raw - 744: #744 - Challenges of Being a Woman in Male-Dominated American Evangelicalism: Lynn Cohick

Episode Date: June 17, 2019

On episode #744 of Theology in the Raw Preston has a conversation with Lynn Cohick. Dr. Cohick is a world renown biblical scholar, a professor of New Testament, and currently serves as the provost and academic dean at Denver Seminary. Before joining the faculty at Denver Seminary, Dr. Cohick taught at Messiah College and Wheaton College. She has a Ph.D. in New Testament and Christian Origins from the University of Pennsylvania and has written several books and dozens of articles. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I have a new fall schedule that is in the process of being rolled out. So if you want to go to centerforfaith.com and go to the events link and click on schedule, you'll see that I've got a whole bunch of stuff lined up for the fall. All of these, well, at least all the ones listed on that website, are by registration only. So I'll be in Indianapolis September 5th, Fort Wayne, Indiana September 16th and 17th for an evening event and then an all-day leaders forum. I'll be in Richmond, Virginia September 23rd

and September 24th for another intro conversation about sexuality and gender and also an all-day leaders forum. I'm coming to New York City September 27th and September 28th, I believe, and also Colorado Springs on October 8th and October 9th, and Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, November 5th, and there's also a couple other events that are kind of brewing on the scenes, one in Southern California and one back in Minneapolis. So once those are solidified, if they're solidified, I can update my schedule there. So I would love to see you at one of these events. Again, the ones that I mentioned are all by registration only, and some of these events fill up pretty quickly. So I know it's a little early now,

it's June, and this might be a little early for you to be thinking about attending a conference in September or October, but I would highly recommend if you do want to attend one of these events, that you go to our website, centerforfaith.com, and register sooner than later. They have been known to fill up, so we'd love to see you there. My guest on the show today, I am so excited to have Dr. Lynn Kohik on the show today. Lynn Kohik is a rock star biblical scholar. She's written several books, edited a bunch of books, and has written more peer-reviewed journal articles than I could even quote. She is a scholar among scholars. She's also the dean of Denver Seminary.

And I encourage you to wait to the end of the podcast, and you can learn more about Denver Seminary if that's something that interests you. But she's written on Philippians, Ephesians, Romans. She has written a couple books on women in the early Christian world. She's written on the Greco-Roman background of the New Testament. She's written popular articles for Christianity Today. She is just a solid, solid thinker, and I'm so excited to have her on the show today. We talk a lot about women, both in early Christianity and also what it's like being a woman academic in American evangelicalism. Some fascinating stuff there. I just learned so much from Lynn. And also, how do we even think

about biblical femininity and masculinity? These are questions that I've been asking myself for a while now, and she has some really interesting thoughts on that. So please welcome to the show, the Dr. Lynn Kohig. Lynn, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Raw. It's great to be here, Preston, and visiting with you. I always enjoy our conversations. Yeah, I'm so excited to have you on for so many different reasons. Why don't I lead with the question that I think a lot of people in my audience would want to know and something that I've often thought about is what's it been like being a female in American evangelical academia?

And I don't even know if you're going to say it's been terrible or I don't even know if you're gonna say it's been terrible, or I don't even know why you asked that question, President. It's been great. I really have no agenda here, but I'd just like to know what it's been like. I'm a Star Trek fan. And so when I existed in an alternate universe as a man, I can now answer, you know, what it's like as comparing the two. I don't know. I mean, part of it, part of the question kind of presupposes a comparison that I can't make because I've never not been a woman in experiencing this. Right. So I don't, I have to assume what it would be like not to be a woman doing

this. I think that probably the, I think on the plus side, now I get opportunities that some of my male colleagues don't, because there is a sense that, oh, well, you know, we have this panel, we got to get a woman on the panel. Right. And so I think I get, I get requests because I'm a woman. I also am pretty sure that I didn't get requests because I'm a woman. It, so it kind of can play both ways in that. And I think getting, so I'm grateful for any opportunities. And then at that point, you just kind of have to hope you do a good job, right? Because at the end of the day,

you're either going to make sense or you're not going to make sense. But I think the, it's a tricky thing to say, well, we need to have more women voices because framing it sometimes if you frame it just that way it's hard for uh the woman to think to well there's a you kind of wonder am i being asked just so that someone can tick a box that the panel or the conference looks a little bit better? Or do they actually really want what Lynn thinks? Are they interested in what Lynn thinks? And so there can be what some people have called the imposter syndrome, where you just, you really doubt that you have anything to say, and you're just being used for somebody else's agenda. So I think that's kind of the tricky thing.

So help me out here because I live in that tension where I am constantly trying to do whatever I can to empower women, to share my platform with women and to elevate women. And, and, and part, but I do wrestle with that. I'm like, am I just tokenizing women? Like, am I just, but I know in my heart, that's not the motivation. Like I'm like, like I wouldn't, if I didn't think you had something to say, I wouldn't have had you in my podcast. I just, I wouldn't have interesting, thoughtful people on here and you are that. Um, but yeah, I'm also excited. You are a female and I've, I've had probably way too many men on, on people on here and you are that. But yeah, I'm also excited. You are a female and I've had probably way too many men on my podcast in the past. So how do I do what

you're hearing my heart is trying to do and yet not tokenize women? Or is it just, does it come down to just my intentions in it? Or I don't know. Yeah, I think part of it is the questions that you ask. So, yes, I will have perspectives as a woman because women are treated differently in certain ways. There's, you know, if I don't want to open a door, usually I'm with one of my male colleagues who will open the door for me, and I'm fine with that. You know, it's not sort of just how we, you know, it's not a big issue. But if they're opening the door because it's just courteous and that's what we do, that's one thing. door because it's just courteous and that's what we do that's one thing if they're opening the door and then they just talk over me and interrupt me or if i'm talking they uh are distracted and use

their phone okay then i realize you know that the opening the door was was more about them and how they saw themselves as being respectful rather than actually seeing me as a person. That's, wow, that's interesting. So, I mean, again, and you don't even need to give any kind of like indication to a specific context, whatever, but being a female in evangelical academia, have you felt that at some point where maybe it's totally implicitly or unintentional, you know, um, but have you felt that, man, I am clearly not, you know, being treated like other male colleagues are. Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. So, uh, uh, easily a decade ago, I was invited to speak at a conference and, uh, everybody, all the other speakers were men. I was not a keynote. I just was doing,

along with a couple of the other men, some breakout sessions. And initially, I wasn't sure when I'd be able to arrive at this conference. And so I wasn't sure if I'd get there for the first evening event. But as it happens, I was able to. We're having dinner and there's some really big names that are around this table and they're planning, the event planner is planning who's going to speak on the stage. And all the men are going to speak on the stage, the keynotes and the breakout session leaders and not me. So I'm feeling really small at this point. And they get ready to serve dessert. And the wife of the person who's organizing this steps out in the hall and I

step out to her and I say, look, you know, I'm not going to leave in a huff. I'm not, I'll play, I'll play the game and all that. But I just, I just want you to know, I was actually humiliating to sit around the table. I've an earned PhD with these male colleagues and not be invited to speak on the stage for the main event. Well, they got that corrected. They said, oh, it's just an oversight on our part. We weren't sure when you were coming in and then it just slipped our minds to include you. Okay. So, okay. Now everybody has to get mic'd up. Okay. So I go, we do this individually and I get on the stage and they mic me up. And then as I leave the guy who handles the stage thing said, yeah,

it was really strange to see you up there on the stage. I said, Oh, he said, you know, you know, like that Sesame street song, you know how that goes? One of these things is not like the others. Do you know what the second line of that is? No. The second line is one of these things just doesn't belong. Oh, my gosh. I know.

And I'm thinking, okay, I'm feeling strong and empowered to sit up on this stage. So that kind of stuff happens. and empowered to sit up on this stage. So that kind of stuff happens. Or I'm going to, this is the Southern Baptist School, and I was presenting a paper, and again, an esteemed scholar, I'm in a room, a classroom, a large classroom, and there are only men around except a woman that came in that was clearly someone helping to arrange you know staff so one of the guys comes up and he just says very friendly but you know what are you doing here that was his question what are you doing here you're looking for your husband and he just oh then he felt bad you know and he did apologize and i accepted his apology i'm not saying his name because i know he apologized he felt bad about it you know i'm not going to shame

him but it's that kind of thing on a fairly regular basis that can happen that's a pretty conservative environment does it does it for for environments that are for lack of better terms more moderate more egalitarian or a blend or whatever do you still experience it i mean is it i mean i would assume in more conservative for you know southern baptist context like that's not surprising but it would be surprising at a more a school that's much more moderate than that i don't know or do you feel like you experience that kind of stuff all over the place no i don't think i experience it um all over the place i i think in the um what i've what i've noticed is that women get interrupted more um that uh that their comments aren't treated as seriously. There are still times when I could say an idea.

No man in the room picks this up if we're in a conversation. Fifteen minutes later, a guy says something very similar, and it floats. So I think that it's, or I've noticed, let's say, think that it's, or I've noticed, let's say, when a female lecturer is teaching, that the male students in the class will fidget or talk to each other. In other words, just talking over a woman's voice is, it just happens. And oftentimes, I think women are less inclined to speak, and certainly evangelical women are trained to be a little bit more quiet. Whereas men figure, oh, I got a 50-50 chance of being right, so I'll just speak, you know. And so in classroom settings, and then continuing on up through, men are just more comfortable speaking right out, and they, and women aren't really trained to do that, and so I would say that one of the ways

that men can help if they're interested is to, is to allow women the space to even talk, is to allow women the space to even talk. Because a lot of times you can't get your words in edgewise. And then to create a space where it's comfortable for women to talk. Can you keep, I want to keep pressing that. How can us guys create that space? Would it be even, if we're in a room, say we're in a room, you're sitting there and I know just being aware, I don't, you know, Lynn hasn't said anything to say, Hey, Lynn, do you have any thoughts on this? Or would that be still, you know,

exerting kind of male dominance if I kind of call on a woman to share her opinion? Well, I think that no, not necessarily. I think, especially if you're running the discussion, I think that is very useful to do. I think sometimes just naming it, just saying, here's the reality. A couple of years ago, I co-taught with a guy, our senior seminar, and he decided, I wasn't tenured at the time, I don't think, so I didn't have the courage, but he decided that in our senior seminar, we would not call on a guy for a whole half hour. We had about maybe 75% were men in the group, but we had some, often the women in the class were smarter, you know, or better paper writers and that sort of thing. Anyway, so we do this where we don't call on any of the young men.

They got so frustrated. I don't know that we even made it to a half hour. They were fidgeting. They just wanted to holler by the end, just holler out. the end just just holler out so the professor said you know this was we just wanted for you men to hear your that your female peers voice you don't you don't wait to to hear them and in our structure the way things are structured it's okay for men to just dive in tends not to be okay for women to dive in. Now, as I get older, I just go ahead and dive in. I don't care as much, but we know when I was in my thirties, I just, it's just not as, it's just not as comfortable and women aren't rewarded for stepping in. They're too assertive. They're bossy.

They're, you know, whatever. We don't have words, complimentary words that describe women who engage actively in a conversation. It feels like it's taking over the room whereas if a man did that, it tends not to. So I think that those are more subtle ways, but they're important ways that women experience a conversation with men in academia. has a really positive feel to it, but if it's, oh, she's a take charge women, it's like, ooh,

we need to keep that in check. You know, it's kind of just, even, even as I say that out loud, that's just what pops into my mind, but that's a cultural, culturally conditioned thing. How did you, so what, um, what, let's just going back, what, what led you into wanting to pursue Christian academia in particular biblical studies and early church history and stuff? Was that in college or, uh, or even before that or? Yes. Yes. Initially, uh, I had thought maybe of going into medicine and then decided, oh, I really didn't like chemistry very much. Uh, and then I had this crazy season where I thought, why don't I become an elementary school teacher? So I, for a year, was in elementary education. And then I worked with the kids and realized I have absolutely no skill set in that. But I did love to teach, and I loved history. I

loved the Bible. So my last year and a half in college, I was a religious studies major. And I thought, I want to go on and get my PhD. And I want to teach. I was part of a church that did not ordain women. But I thought, I don't want to, I don't want to be a pastor, I want to, I want to teach. And that didn't seem to be any restrictions overt restrictions against that but in fact there really were right there I was I wanted to go on to seminary that's what I thought you know you get your MDiv and then you go on for your PhD that's kind of the route but the church did not sign for me to go inside a letter of recommendation for me to go to seminary and study the Bible. I could go if I did church history or if I did Christian education, but not to study the Bible.

What church, what church tradition is that? Cause that was E free. Oh, E free. Okay. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So here I am the provost Dean of a seminary. God has a sense of humor. I mean, I was raised raised you know john mcarthur background where that yeah they wouldn't even it was they they can't they don't enroll women in the seminary at all like you can't take class for credit um we also wore suit and ties you know the class every day i mean it's really super conservative environment which you know whatever

um but i didn't i didn't really i mean you know, once I got out of that environment, I saw that as being, you know, one brand of Christianity, but on the far, far right. And even when I did my PhD, I was kind of shocked to hear how many women were, you know, had seminary degrees or whatever. I'm like, well, what seminary was that from? You know, mine wouldn't let you in. So it's a little surprising to hear that it was more widespread than I thought. Wow. So you were raised in a more complementarian or no women in leadership church context. What was that shift like for you or what? Because now you

would, how would you, how would you call yourself now? I mean, I would assume, some people don't like to turn egalitarian, but how would you describe your view on women in church leadership? Yeah, I think the well, I was raised United Methodist, pretty nominal until I was in high school. And then my mom and I went to an evangelical free church. I went to an evangelical free church. So the way I was raised and my family, there weren't restrictions on women in leadership in that sense. So I got it more from the church.

And yeah, I think that in terms of labels, yeah, I would say egalitarian fits in that regard. But I don't see it as a salvation issue, right? So I think that someone can be a complementarian and not be sexist. There are a lot of sexist complementarians, but there is also a way to exegete scripture that i think you can be a complementarian and not sexist right yeah no i would agree 100 with that that on paper there are forms of complementarianism that would see full equality right i mean it's almost like the analogy of the father and the son like they they're fully equal, yet they're different. And there might even be a submission and, you know, headship there. But yeah, in practice, it typically does not work out as equal as sometimes some complementarians try to make it up to be on paper. So I have to ask 1 Timothy 2, how do you work

through that? And what was that journey like? Or is that the main, I mean, is that I assume that's kind of the main, you know, hurdle that egalitarians have to jump, jump through? That's a bad way of putting it, but you could you I'm saying, you know, yeah, well, I think that's interesting. It is often this starting point, but it's a starting point that presupposes a lot of other things. So I think before you even get to poses a lot of other things. So I think before you even get to First Timothy, for me, I remember going up to grad school. So I went straight from undergrad to the PhD program. And I lived in Harrisburg at the time, and I would take the train to Philadelphia twice a week. And I get the early train, the 6 a.m. train. So I do my devotions on the train. And I remember reading in 1 Corinthians, and it was a translation, I think it was the 1984 NIV,

and it used male pronouns for, you know, humanity. And I remember reading that, he, he, he, and I just started crying. I said, God, am I in this at all? Or is the standard of discipleship male? That was my starting point, not one, Tim, two, and what I could do. You see, the whole thing about can women be a senior pastor presupposes so many other things. Are women, can they even lead? Can they lead men? Can they understand scripture well? Where are they in, you know, in the church. And so it's a so much bigger question than what do you do with Althontain or whatever particular, what does teach really mean? So I think that that, that it's not about a single verse or a few verses. me, at least. It wasn't about that. It was about who am I as a follower of Christ? What has Christ gifted me to do? What has he called me to do? And when I look at that, then I see courage that Esther showed for such a time as this.

Or Deborah saying to her general, you got to do this. I'm here. I mean, you're going to have to wield the sword because my arm isn't as strong as yours, but I am the person leading Israel. And I think of Mary and Martha and their deep theological conversations with Jesus. I think of the Samaritan woman, who I believe was not an immoral woman in the way that she's often portrayed, but she is a seeker. She's someone who's deeply religious and wants to know more. I think of characters, in other words.

I think of flesh and blood characters of the biblical text, these women who wanted to follow God. And it's, that's where I start, not 1 Tim 2. That's interesting. I want to, I would love to ask you, this is kind of a related note, but maybe on a bigger picture. And let me give it a little bit of background, I guess. note, but maybe on a bigger picture. And let me give it a little bit of background, I guess. I mean, again, I was raised in a very complimentary background where gender roles, male and female roles, were really thoroughly segmented. Like there's things that God wants women to do that men shouldn't do and things God wants men to do that women shouldn't do. And now over the last

several years of my sexuality and gender journey, you know, it's causing me to go back to scripture and ask, what does the Bible actually say about this? And I've been kind of blown away. I mean, this is old news for a lot of people, but for me, it was like revolutionary when I go back to scripture and I just don't see a lot of gender specific commands. Even if you take a complementarian view of leadership in the church or even leadership in the home, whatever that means, let's just even assume some of that. Beyond that, it seems that so many of our expectations that we think are from God of how men and women should

act really come from culture. And, you know, I always use the example of, you know, David killed Goliath, which is a really manly thing to do, but he also played his harp and wrote poetry while his brothers were off at war, which he would be considered, you know, very feminine if he dragged his harp to my high school at least. Right. So I, so I, and I, this is a, this isn't like, I truly, like I'm in a learning moment right now, because this is your area of expertise. What are the biblical prescriptions for living out your male or femaleness?

Or are there any besides having, besides reproductive roles, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. reproductive roles you know right right yeah well um you know and i guess to add to your uh david he listened to uh abigail which was really smart huh yeah oh yeah he told him to just take a deep breath and uh and that was really smart. So I think that, I don't see virtues, Christian virtues, painted as male and female. We are all to be courageous. We all pick up our cross. we are all to be courageous. We all pick up our cross. Women are not allowed to bypass dying for their faith. And the early Christian martyrs, many of them were women. So the earliest

earliest Christians did not see martyrdom as an exclusive male domain by any means. I think that we're all called to give testimony to what we believe at any time that we are asked. So the proclamation of the gospel, standing firm for our faith, those central truths are not just for men. The, the, and those that were to be stand firm and put on the armor, those are active. I think one of the things that happens in this complementarian egalitarian conversation is we create what it means to be female as essentially passive.

And this also, I think there's a strand of Catholicism that does this as well. So innately, women are passive and innately, men are active. But when you map that onto Christian discipleship, it just doesn't play. I mean, it's just not. So I think when you construct what it means to be male or what it means to be masculine, let me say it that way. When you construct masculinity as primarily active, as primarily active, decision-making, rational, and you define being female as the opposite of that, I think that's where you run into trouble. I don't see that as affirmed in Scripture.

It's Aristotelian for sure, but I don't see it as affirmed in Scripture. The Imago Dei, I think that is for men and women, include... Hey, friends, we just had some technical difficulties, so sorry about that. Hopefully, my producer will be able to clear that up. Anyway, Lynn, you were talking about the Aristotelian idea that female is passive and male is kind of dominant and how the Bible doesn't really match up to that. So if you remember where you were in the context, go ahead and keep expanding on that. You're right in the sweet spot. So yeah.

Yeah, no, I think that for so long, we've talked about this as the woman's issue, but I really think it's a man's issue. It's a man's issue as much as because if men are going to define masculinity over against femininity, then I become the opposite of male or of masculinity. And not only is it opposite, but it's usually less than so, uh, it, it's, um, if, if being masculine is being rational, then being feminine is being emotional or irrational or whatever. And we know that that's simply not, not true. Who is more emotional than a 19 year old male with testosterone coursing through his body, right? I mean, it's limited emotional range of, you know, rage. limited emotional range of, you know, rage. Yeah, yeah, anger, lust, yeah. Caring at a sports venue, but it, so I think it's, and then let me also add, I think we're in an interesting moment now in sexual identity terms, is that as a larger secular culture, we have

tried to say that people can choose their identity in a particular way. And we've made the difference between men and women all in kind of the mind, or it's all about gender, there's no biological differences. And that is being challenged now in the secular world by female athletes, of all things. You know, like female athletes are rightly reminding us that men and women develop differently. And this was one statistic that I heard that men in their 14, 15 years old, when they start into puberty, already are gaining a great advantage over women, such that, you know, a grown woman and a teenage boy, boy will beat her in all, in a lot of, especially track and field events. So there, there is a biological reality to our differences. My point is just that we shouldn't value one characteristic over another. When we do that, when we say, well, you know,

men are stronger. Yes, you, Preston, could bench press way more than me. But is that better or worse? Well, it depends on what needs to be done as to whether it's an advantage or not. And I think that's, I want to affirm that there are differences between men and women. Where I get caught up is when we value them differently, such that women tend to be a losing end. Yeah. That's super helpful. So let me, yeah, let me give you my thoughts. I think we're saying the same thing. And a lot of this is just, I'm trying to explore. Well, let me give you a real life example.

So I've got a few friends that suffer from pretty severe gender dysphoria. And they're all on whatever level trying to follow Jesus faithfully in that. But so I get the question from, say, some of my biologically female friends who know that I believe that God desires us to, and I'll use the phrase, to live according to our biological sex, to identify with the bodies that God's given us. And the friends I'm thinking of don't disagree with that, but then they come right back around and say, okay, what does that mean in my day-to-day life? Can I mow the lawn? Can I, you know, female, can I wear jeans and a baggy shirt? Can I cut my hair short?

jeans and a baggy shirt? Can I cut my hair short? And this is where I'm like, yes, I think that's totally fine. Because a lot of those are just, you know, the question is really interacting with these cultural stereotypes that aren't in the Bible. There's nothing in the Bible that says that. And yet I'm still, but then they'll, you know, I'll get the question. So what does it mean to live according to my biological sex? And I'm like, I'm not sure I even know anymore because I could fall back on my staunch complementarian background. And it's like, well, that means you can't drive a car and you can't get a job, all these things. I'm like, I don't want to go that route because it's not biblical. Sorry for my friends that might disagree. There's no verses that you can attach to that kind of paradigm. But then what is it? So here's my question.

Are, because you and I would both agree that sex differences are beautiful, and we should celebrate that. Now we should protest when they become hierarchical or oppressive, which is very common that to happen, but that doesn't mean we erase the differences. So are you saying that male and female differences are limited to simply biology and not what we would call gender behavior? Like in terms of gender, how men and women behave, their interests or likes, dislikes, maybe there's some, you know, majority kind of like generalities, like maybe 70% of men are more aggressive than 70% of women, but the 20 to 30% of men that aren't as aggressive as the other women are still men, right? So even if there are some generalities, it doesn't mean that they're exclusive. So do male female differences,

are they simply biological and physical and not behavioral is where I'm trying to get. That's the question that I have in my mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think we, we really can't answer them in, in that kind of one sentence sort of, sort of thing, because the, if you have a lot of testosterone and I don't have as much, you are going to act differently. You're going to walk through life a foot taller than me. You're going to have trouble in those teeny airplanes in the way that, you know, I can just sit comfortably. Leg room, who needs it? Not me. For your listeners, I'm 5'3 when I stand up straight. And so I think that how I move through space will just be different and people will react differently to that.

So I don't think you can just say more of a reproductive. That is a big deal. I mean, that is certainly for women and through pregnancy and stuff that we can't minimize that. stuff that that uh we can't minimize minimize that uh i think each culture uh describes what men should look like and i knew a tribe in africa when we lived there where the men had long hair that had beads woven in it quite lovely and the women's hair was cut very, very short. And that for them was masculine and feminine, which is the opposite of how my culture is. So I think that each culture should figure out ways where they distinguish men and women in their dress or customs along those lines as a way to kind of celebrate the difference.

Where it becomes a problem is when women are restricted from doing those things that help self-actualize humans. Reading, education, for example. We take that for granted here in the West, but that is a real debated issue in certain cultures around the world. Should women be educated? Well, the reason that question is asked is because it gets to, well, what's the point of being female? And for some cultures, the point of being female does not extend to having your own thoughts. And so I think that that, and I'm kind of rambling now here going further than what your comment was. No, this is all super helpful, super helpful. Okay. Yeah, but I think the idea of being able to make your own choices

and to explore where you want to explore, that to me is part of what it means to be made in God's image. And you can do that as a man or as a woman. There should be freedom to do that. Yeah. No, that's super helpful. The cultural thing really trips me out because it's, and here's where I'm not,

I kind of just am wrestling with is there are certain, well, if I just say, oh, these are cultural expectations of dress and behavior and therefore they're not moral. But then I asked my question, what if there's a significant degree of crossover? So say I see a six foot five dude with a huge beard in a pink dress, you know, and he becomes a Christian and wants to be a pastor

and wants to preach in a pink dress. Even though that is a cultural thing, I'm still going to say, I, and I don't want to just punt to Deuteronomy 22, the cross-dressing prohibition. It's just going to seem like, I just don't sense that you, that this person is, is receiving the gift of his male body in the way that they should. However, am I just relying on the cultural expectation? Is there a crossover between the cultural custom and a moral kind of either embracing or rejecting of that cultural custom? Like in the African context, if you saw a guy that cut his hair short and a girl who had her hair long with the beads, like we're presenting as the opposite sex, like that, would that be simply a crossing of cultural boundaries or crossing of moral boundaries? Do you have an answer to that? But it that. So in my culture, I'm fine wearing slacks, fine wearing jeans. I don't wear spandex too much because I love my children. I think their their old mom shouldn't be wearing spandex. But jeans, slacks, not a problem. But jeans, slacks, not a problem.

I never taught. I never even went on campus at the seminary in Kenya where I taught for three years wearing slacks. Certainly never jeans. I always wore a skirt or dress. Because I appropriately accommodate myself to the cultural norms of jeans, just slacks, that I would not be honoring my family, be confused. Why am I wearing slacks? I'm a mama. I'm a married woman. I wear a dress. I didn't fight that and try and say, no, no, no, I should be able to wear slacks where I am. It wasn't worth it.

I knew what their culture was. I was comfortable, you know, in dressing appropriately, but I was also teaching a class. You know, I taught. I drove to the school, but I taught in a dress because it was celebrating the fact that I was in their culture. One day I was walking along the road, and there was a man walking toward me. He had a beautiful powder pink coat on. And he's a Kenyan man. And, you know, I thought I am unaware of any Western men who would wear that coat. It had white fur around the collar.

I mean, you could not have picked a more feminine looking coat. But pink and blue were not mapped on to boys and girls in Kenya. And so the pink color was just a pretty color. It didn't speak at all to his masculinity one way or another. So that's what I would say to your friend who wanted to wear a pink dress, unless he can find a kilt, because there you can sort of say, all right, you know, a kilt is what Scottish men wore. You know, there are cultures even today where what you and I would call dress-like

are the clothing that men wear. And there weren't slacks or jeans in Jesus' day, right? So, you know, I think it's more having a sense of celebrating you're a woman or celebrating that you're a man in the ways that culture does, but then also allowing the individual characteristics of that person made in the Imago Dei, made in the image of God, to do what they are doing. So the example of your friend, if he's a good teacher, then let him preach. And if she's a good mechanic, then let her repair a car.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. So I mean, I don't want to punt to the cliche of it's all about the heart, you know, obviously, it's all about the heart, but it kind of in the dress conversation, it's all about the heart, but in the dress conversation, it kind of is. Well, it just so happens that in our culture, women have more flexibility in dress than men do, right? I mean, a woman can wear clothes that are more typical of a man, and it's not that big of a deal, especially, you know, in 2019. But again, if a guy wore a pink dress, that's different than a girl wearing, you know, jeans and a baggy shirt. But I just wonder, I mean, But think about, but think about this Hillary Clinton, when she was running for office,

how many times was she made fun of by wearing her pantsuits? And actually she was just dressing like they did in the eighties when women in order to be professional wore pantsuits and the jackets were, had padded shoulders. Women to be in a quote unquote man's world had to dress as a man. Now, you know, and that was very much Hillary Clinton's early career. And then, you know, you saw on the campaign trail, at least I heard, I didn't follow it too closely, but really challenged

when she wore what seemed to some people maybe too masculine. But overall, I agree with your point that women have a wider range. But part of that is because it's not that it's not really that bad to be a tomboy. Yeah, but it is really awful to be a sissy. So you see, it really, it's, it's really not that bad if, if a woman wants to be like a man because a man is normative, but it is not good for a man to want what the culture has said is a woman. Then he becomes sissy, effeminate, and everything bad. And that is Aristotelian, right? That is saying that the man is normative and the woman is inferior. And anytime that we in the church foster that kind of Aristotelian view, And I'm ganging up on Aristotle. I don't

really know if it's all him or not, but I'll just blame him. There are probably many others. Yes. But I think that's really underlying. It's not just about difference. It's about the value you place in that difference. And that's what is so concerning. to certain cultural stereotypes, whereas somebody could kind of do the same thing, but even inside they are trying to identify as the different sex rather than, you know, and I said such a fine line, but I mean, I don't know if there's a black and white line when you kind of cross over to dishonoring the sort of maleness or femaleness that God has created you as. Lynn, we're getting a little short on time here, but I really wanted to look at some of your books you've written. I have your website open here, and you've written several books, Ephesians, Commentary, Philippians. The one I'm most

familiar with is the New Testament in Antiquity, a survey of the New Testament in its cultural context. If my readers or listeners are looking for a good background book on the New Testament in its cultural context. If my readers or listeners are looking for a good background book on the New Testament, this one is just absolutely fantastic. I love, well, most background books in the New Testament are heavy on the Jewish side or heavy on the Greco-Roman side. And this one, I feel like blends both, probably because you have different authors. You're one of three that specialize in different areas. I want to talk about, so your most recent one, as far as I can tell, is Christian Women in the Patristic World that you wrote with Amy Brown Hughes. Can you summarize that in a couple minutes, what you discovered and are revealing in that book? yes I think the goal was in that book Amy and I were trying to illuminate for readers especially yeah any any reader today that those aspects of the church that often you don't hear about if

you're just learning about doctrinal disputes or you're just learning about creeds, you know, the councils and the creeds. Those are important aspects of church history, but you don't have a lot of women as part of that story. But in fact, women were doing a lot of things in the early church. I mainly wrote about the pre-Constantine period, and Amy, who's at Gordon College, she wrote mainly about the post-Constantine period. And Amy, who's at Gordon College, she wrote mainly about the post-Constantine church. But we wanted to just put some flesh on the sketches of women at this

time. So that's why we wrote it. So would you say women were highly valued? I mean, when I read church history, and I don't do a lot, but when I do read, it seems very misogynistic, patriarchal, male-dominant, especially with how they talk about marriage and everything. But I've also seen from the tiny bit I've done, almost like you said, like female martyrs. I mean, and even that, doesn't that speak to how women were viewed from their opponents? I mean, you don't martyr somebody unless they're kind of in a position of leadership or significance, right? So were women highly esteemed in pre-Constant Church or was it very misogynistic or is it a complex blend of both? I think that, well, yes, it obviously was complex. I think a lot of it had to do with whether you had money or not. If you were a wealthy woman,to-do family. And she writes a diary where she talks about her experience in the prison.

And then she is martyred. And she's a leader. She's a leader of this group. I think in part because she had experiences as a well-to-do woman that created leadership traits in her and people looked to her. So it wasn't just that she was a woman because there was a slave woman that was also martyred at the same time. And she's not looked at as a leader in terms of the group, although she is looked at as a model of Christian faithfulness for sure. Yeah, you know, people cherry pick phrases,

the woman is the devil's gateway, Tertullian's comment, you know, that is misogynistic on any scale. But he also, he could talk about women receiving words from the Holy Spirit for the church. He just wanted those women, when they heard those words, to state it not publicly in the church itself, but to speak with the male leaders of the church and give them the word that came from God. So he didn't think that women couldn't receive words from God. So you find that same sort of thing,

I think, with almost any ancient church father. I think of Jerome, he's basically bankrolled by his wealthy friend, Paula. And he has the number of women that he regularly corresponds with, and they talk about Hebrew, the language Hebrew. Jerome knew that, one of the very few church fathers that knew Hebrew, and he's talking to these women about it. They have robust conversations. So that's what Amy and I tried to bring out, is that women were doing theology. They were seen as role models for both men and women in the church. They, Helena, Constantine's wife, essentially designed Jerusalem by creating, you know, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and many other holy sites in Jerusalem. And she's not just a pilgrim.

and many other holy sites in Jerusalem. And she's not just a pilgrim. She's someone who had imperial authority to build a sacred landscape. We just wanted to bring that forward because that helps nuance, I think, people's view of how the church started and the importance of women in all layers of the church. That's fascinating. Wow. And it makes me want to read it. I haven't read it yet. I apologize.

So it really is a complex blend because, gosh, I don't even know how to put that together. Because, yeah, when I read early Christian statements on marriage in particular, and they didn't write a lot on it. I mean, Augustine obviously did quite a bit. But yeah, I've read stuff. And maybe I am cherry picking statements by Tertullian and others. It's like, oh, my gosh, that statement in and of itself is just horrendous, you know, but then, yeah, that's fascinating. So women, in certain contexts, may have been viewed as less than, but in other ways, I mean, they wouldn't have. I mean, I don't know.

That's right. Yes. Gregory of Nyssa admires his sister so much and learned from her, took her advice. I think part of what we're learning now, is that women could make choices and that they made choices towards what today we would call conservative values like virginity. That there was an asceticism and also asceticism. That these were not imposed on them. This wasn't self-hatred of the body. were not imposed on them. This wasn't self-hatred of the body, but it was an embracing of resurrection life and trying to get close to resurrection life as they understood it in the here and now. A lot of the women we know about were wealthy women, and so they wanted to use their wealth for God. And often that meant giving up their wealth or starting homes or like convents or monasteries where God's word could be copied and,

and he could be worshiped. So, you know, it was just that they, they're very active in, in the church church but also their own lives and thinking about what it meant to be a faithful follower and they talked with men about this less so um augustine he he doesn't seem to have had the sorts of conversations that jerome had with women but his mother was very influential in in good way in Augustine's life. So you just can't faithfully imagine the early church without it being populated by women, by women martyrs, by women who supported the work of the church and, and by the average disciple, they, they, they're very much a part of it.

Yeah. Well, that's so helpful. Why don't we close out by giving, give you just some space to talk about Denver seminary. So you're the provost and Dean of Denver seminary, formerly at Wheaton college. So I, I, I, and you didn't even ask me to do this, but I'm a huge fan of Denver Seminary. I didn't go there, never taught there, but I, from a distance, I always looked at Denver as being like, man, this is an evangelical seminary that is not polarizing. I think level-headed, is fairly honors different

perspectives within evangelical debates and so on. And I just love what you guys are doing. So if there's anybody looking for a seminary, why should they consider Denver besides the fact that you're there? Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that plug. I don't think I could have said it any differently because you've hit on the values that for Denver Seminary, it is about engaging the needs of the world. So it is outward facing. But to be effective in your ministry, wherever God has called you, whether that's the church or parachurch or in business or in counseling, because we have a degree, wherever God has asked you to serve, we want to equip you well. And that means knowing ideas, being able to articulate your own ideas, being around people who might have slightly different ideas than you and talking about it so

that you have a strong foundation going forward to engage the messiness, because the world is messy. You know that better almost than anyone in the work that you've been doing recently, and just trying to meet people where they are in terms of the broader conversation about sexual identity across the country. Meet people where they are, try to love them where they are with the love of Christ. But think also diligently about what the Word of God says, and make sure that we're faithfully upholding that, but done obviously, completely in love. And that really is, I think, the witness of Denver Seminary. And you guys have online, hybrid, on campus, all of the above? Or what's somebody was interested?

We have a fully online MDiv. I think we've got a leadership MA also online. We are continuing to offer more and more courses online. Yeah, so stay tuned. There's some new things also simmering that are in the oven yet that hasn't fully baked, but hopefully in the next year or two, we'll be launching some new things as well.

Awesome. Lynn, thanks so much for being on the show. And yeah, I would encourage you guys to check out Denver Seminary. And Lynn, you have a faculty page on there with all your books and resources and articles and so on. So if you want more info about Lynn, you can check that out.

So thanks so much for being on Theology in the Routes, Lynn. Oh, thank you so much, Preston. This was a great conversation, as always. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. We'll see you again. Thank you.