Theology in the Raw - 745: #745 - Parenting in the Raw

Episode Date: June 24, 2019

On episode #744 of Theology in the Raw Chris Sprinkle is joined by her husband Preston to discuss various questions about parenting sent in from their Patreon supporters. Some of the questions include: Is it right to spank? How do you make time for sex when you have kids in the house? How do you protect your kids from evil in the world and yet teach them how to respond well to the evil in the world? How do we teach our daughters to be modest without being legalistic? Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

🎵 Hello and welcome to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with my wife, Chris Sprinkle, and we are going to do a joint episode on parenting in the raw. on parenting in the raw. So what I did is I asked several of my Patreon supporters, actually I asked all my Patreon supporters to ask a bunch of questions that are parenting specific. Now they don't have to be parents. They can be single people, aspiring parents, former parents, or just people who have questions about maybe their own parents. So anything parental related was fair game. So they sent in a bunch of questions. And I got to admit, when I got these questions, I was like, oh, no, here we go. Like they, I titled it Parenting in the Raw, and they asked some really raw questions. And so how do you

feel about that, Chris? These raw questions? Yeah, a little nervous. Okay, so we'll see how honest we are. I mean, I told my wife, I said, Hey, look, yeah, we can edit this out. If we start going down a road, we're like, you know, I don't know if I want, you know, 5000 people listening to what we're talking about here, then we can always edit it out. But I mean, I said that, but I don't think I'm gonna do any editing, quite honestly. So we didn't really get a chance to talk these over. So I just emailed these questions to my wife as she was up in her office. And I said, all right, we're going to do a podcast here in a few minutes.

So just read over them. And here we are in my basement. And yeah, we did not actually talk through how we're going to answer these. Now, let me just say up front too, to y'all and also to my wife, like we may actually disagree on some stuff here, which is totally fine. Because if you think that parents agree across the board on everything, then that's fake parenting. That's not parenting in the raw. So I, you know, as I was looking through these though, I think, I don't know, I think we're going to have similar perspectives on most of them at least. So should we jump in? Yeah. Do

you have any final words of wisdom or anything before we jump in? No, it's no, no. Well, I guess, let me say this though. I, parenting is not for the faint hearted. And we, I mean, there's few nights when we go to bed at night thinking, you know what? We really nailed it today. Totally perfect parents today. We, we did everything we should have done. So like, this is not, so what we're going to say in response to these questions is not necessarily prescriptive. I mean, if I feel really strongly about something or you do too, we can say, you know what? Man, I really think this is what parents should do in this situation. But for most of these questions, I'm like, man, I don't know.

This is what we've kind of done. Maybe we've changed our view on some things, but we're in the journey trying to figure it out. We have kids 10, 12, 14, and 16. And we, yeah, we're in the middle of it. We're in the journey trying to figure it out. We have kids 10, 12, 14, and 16, and we, yeah, we're in the middle of it. We're in the thick of it. So we are not here to say here is what we have done right, and I need you all to follow exactly what we've done. We are not at all approaching this that way.

That's why we called it Parenting on the Raw. This is really, yeah, we're right in the thick of of it and i feel like as soon as you think that you have it and you have did it well and you're like we figured it out is when it gets all mixed up different changes in life different situations chapters and all of a sudden you're back to feeling like i do not know what i'm doing i would say well i would say one of the things that we have always done from the time we um had little kids is we were always picking people's brains. So I feel like any time there is other parents, we just say, what do you do about this? And not for the reason that we would do exactly what they do, but just to find out how are people doing it.

And I think both of us are big question askers. For those of you who really do know us you would probably affirm that and so I have always loved asking people questions like how what do you do about this and what you know how did you take care of this so that was um I think you know that was one thing just um up front so I feel like it's it's always changing and it's never will be the same and work for one kid everything doesn't work the same for each kid and so one of the things that we actually it's kind of humorous though should i say this every now and then we'll meet somebody that's like maybe they just had a kid they're

six months old or maybe they haven't even had a kid yet but they have like their whole future parenting kind of laid out, and they're really confident in it. Oh, this is what we're going to do. We're going to do this. We're not going to do that. Boom, boom, this schooling, that schooling. And it's like, oh, yeah, we kind of look at each other like, yeah.

Well, we did that too, though. We were always like, oh, we'll never let our kids do this. Did we? We were that parent? Oh, of course. That's terrible. Everyone would be lying if they didn't admit that. So, yes, I feel like you start off by your ideal, and then you realize, yeah, none of that works.

The standard just keeps coming down and down. If I was a parent, I would do that. Anyway, well, let's jump in. And maybe we will kind of discuss not only the questions that are thrown at us, but maybe some underlying principles that are more general. So I guess we, well, we could just start by saying one thing like just is that I think you and I would both agree and say that we just love parenting. So like we just have just really enjoyed it. I've never been someone that has like needed a lot of me time. And so feeling like, oh, I just need a break from the kids. You've probably never heard me say that. And it's not, oh, I just need a break from the kids. You've probably never heard me say that. And it's not like I don't cover that up. It's just, I don't really feel like that. We really love parenting. I love trying to figure out

how it can work and how we can make it better and how we can make our family better. And so I think it's just like countless hours of just really trying our absolute best as to try to figure out how to parent them well and how to love them well and how to be examples and just build and hold really strong relationships with them. So I feel like it's not easy and it's not quick. it's not, it's not easy and it's not quick. I just feel like, I mean, just hours and hours and hours of just, um, working through, um, figuring it out. So I think just, you know, I just wanted to say that first. And I would say that's not really normal though. Right?

Like most women that I know, most mothers would say that they do need some alone time when she's not wrong. It's not, it's not, I mean, you're just saying that this is the way you're wired. Like, you think through this stuff, like, all day long and enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, let's jump into the first one. Since this is in the raw, this is the first question, I'm wondering if you could address the issues of body image, modesty, et cetera. What do you teach your kids about their bodies? Do you have a more relaxed or conservative approach to family members being undressed around each other, such as while bathing or other contexts in the home? Do you have rules or guidelines for your kids about what kinds of clothes they must wear in public? Do you have

thoughts on how to encourage kids through their words, examples to grow up, hopefully being comfortable in their own skin, having healthy body image, stewarding their bodies in a holy way, etc. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how different approaches could affect children in positive or negative ways. I realize that different cultures and different families can have widely varying approaches to these things. This is a super good question. And we have three daughters, two are teenagers, one's a preteen, about to be a teenager, and a 10-year-old son. And so this is a preteen about to be a teenager and a 10 year old son. And so this is a very live, um, and a very real day-to-day conversation for us. Um, do you want to, do you want to jump in here and take a stab at it? I mean, I'll say just on a 30,000 foot level. Yeah, this is, this is a

ongoing conversation, even if it's not explicit. I mean, sometimes talking about clothing or body image and stuff, it's not necessarily explicit, but it can be just an offhanded comments you make, you know? Um, and I would say our girls are just like any other girl as a teenager. I mean, thinking through the way they look and their bodies, especially as they're changing, I mean, is, is probably a, it's a constant thing on their mind. Would you agree with that? I mean, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, we on their mind would you agree with that I mean yeah for sure yeah I mean it's definitely we yes we are we are um we care about what our kids um look like how they dress um as I'm thinking are we relaxed or conservative well most of our parenting is probably always going to be more relaxed so that's more um but that can go in many different ways. I, I think, um, uh, by the time they become teenagers and they're, they're, um, wanting to

dress how they want to dress or, um, I, I think by that point, hopefully you've invested a lot in them and talked enough to them to be able to now the conversations, instead of the conversations being do's and don'ts, but more being conversations of, well, let's talk about that. Let's see, you know, how do you think this is, what is this portraying? What is this saying to others if you're looking this way? So I think we haven't had a lot of like, no, you cannot wear skirts. You know, they have to go to your knees or we haven't had rules like that. We don't tend in parenting to have rules like that, but it would be more.

But we do. We do. There's been several times where like, no, that's too short or too tight or shows too much. Right. I mean, we do. Yeah. The modesty thing for me is a well i'm gonna come back to this because you're i cut you off but i think in terms of like um that kind of clothes

not necessarily but as far as revealing and and what yeah what that says i think that's where we had been more can i'm we're more like way more relaxed on the kinds of clothes just in general or even styles or the whatever but like in terms of how much is revealing. Right. And I feel like as a guy, I do bring, yeah, a perspective on that. But you started to put your – Well, I would just say it's more of a conversation rather than like, you are not wearing that out of the house.

Maybe if after back and forth of not agreeing on that, at know, at the end, we would put our foot down and say, yep, that's just not something that, you know, you're going to wear. But I think there's conversations with that. And in the end, I feel like when it's me and the girls, and the last question I always tell them is, well, go ask dad and see if what he thinks, what he sees first thing he sees when he sees that. And, and usually, you know, if you're like, oh yeah, all I see is chest or whatever it is, then, um, then that's kind of like a final save. So, um, but I think the most important thing, I mean, I just think is as they're, you know, from teenager leaving the house is that's when you're wanting to start having conversations with them rather than, um, strict rules. And so, um, I feel like

we, we try to do that. Like, why, why are you wanting to wear something where your belly is showing? Like, why, why is that? You know, a lot of times the answer is that's because everyone is wearing that. And, um, I think in the end, you know, it's like, well, not everyone is, but the people that you're referring to is, and what are they usually trying to, why are they trying to show? Yeah. And I, you know, I've been trying, I've tried to instill just a very honest evaluation of teenage boys.

Like, I'm like, look, I was a, I was a morally good kid when I was a teenager. And yet I was still a teenage boy. Boys, I don't, look, they can go to church 10 times a week. They want to have sex. They are probably struggling with porn at a young age. And I said, look, if you wear, you know, really tight pants, many guys are going to be staring at your butt and they are going to want, like, they are going to want to have sex with you. Just put it flat out. Like, that's just the truth of it. And so I don't want to be like, I'm not trying to be like a prude or like, oh, you know, like hyper modesty or whatever.

I'm just like, you know, I want to, I want them to be honest. Like, if you wear that, I'm just, I'm going to let you know, this is how guys are going to be looking at you. And this is what they're going to be thinking. And this is what they're going to want to do with you. Do you still want to wear that? I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to let you know, this is how guys are going to be looking at you. And this is what they're going to be thinking. And this is what they're going to want to do with you. Do you still want to wear that? And for, you know, even like the belly thing, like there's certain, I'm just from a guy's perspective. Oh, sorry. I guess I gotta say heterosexual guy. I mean, just from a heterosexual guy's perspective, like there are certain types of clothing that I'm like, you know what? Yeah. That's probably not going to attract a lot of attention and other types of clothing i'm like you know what that yeah that you may see that is not sexual at all but it's going to attract all kinds of

attention i mean i know that's it's the big discussion is always like yoga pants you know it's like look i'm just going to tell you if you have if you're wearing yoga pants and you have i don't want to say it but i mean if you have a short shirt a short pants and you have, I don't want to say it, but I mean, if you have a short shirt, a short shirt and you have a butt that is going to attract guys, they are going to be staring at that nonstop. I remember sitting at Starbucks. I used to work at Starbucks when I was in Simi Valley. And I used to go in there every day and I'd sit there and work on my computer. And I used to go in there every day and I'd sit there and work on my computer. And there was specifically there was one trainer, gym trainer that would come in every day with yoga pants, not every single day. And she had a body. Right. And I remember sitting there.

I she walked up and took the order. The rows of guys were visibly just, I mean, falling over there. Like one guy was just like visibly like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Oh, and he was just like and I'm like, oh my gosh. Oh man. Oh. And he was just like, and I'm like, do you, and I'm looking around all the guys, there wasn't a single guy there. I'm talking guys studying their Bibles, pastors preparing sermons. It doesn't matter. The entire room was just staring and groping her with the eyes, with their eyes. And I'm like, that's just the, those are just the facts. Like it's not, and I'll even say like, that's, they need to own that. I'm not saying it's their, it's the woman's fault for doing that. I'm just saying these are the facts.

Like if you dress in certain ways, guys will be groping you with their eyes. And when I tell my daughters that, they're like, ew. They're like, and I think that's a good sign. Like, no, I don't want that. So I don't know. I think just being like super honest with the way the world is and how they want people to respond to them in their minds even, you know. Well, you took each girl out on their own. Tell them what you did. I just said, look.

You showed them pictures and stuff, right? Yeah, we actually scrolled. I think I typed in sexy girl or something in Google and just went through images. With each one maybe not even like cute girl or something and just went through and explained to them like yeah this is like what do you think when you see this girl they're like oh seductive you know there's just certain things that do create a more seductive presentation and i said okay so if you have that presentation here is what 95% of church going heterosexual guys and, you know, 99% of non-church, I don't know, it's probably the same across the board. Like here is what is going to be going inside of them when they see you. Like,

how do you feel about that? And I think having that honest conversation early on too, where they, I don't know, and our girls weren't like, oh good. I want them, they were like, no, like turned off by that, you know? So, cause that's the goal. I don't want them to be like, oh, my dad just, you know, doesn't want me to wear this. Like I want them to desire, the ultimate goal is that they would desire to dress in a way that truly is God honoring and, you know, isn't causing, not causing. Again, I don't want to put the blame on the girl who's dressing the way she is. The blame is on the guy who's not disciplining himself.

But we also have to be real with just the facts. Here is the world that we are growing up in. Yeah. And then I thought, oh, we don't, like, we don't have rules about like what you have to wear to church or, you know, skirts only or those kinds of things. Cause I just, I feel like those are just rules for the sake of rules. And neither of us are, are big on that. There's gotta be a reason for the, it rather than just a preference.

So, um, like I know one of our friends has, uh, or sorry, one of our daughters has a friend who can only wear skirts out in public. All she talks about is how she can't wait to leave the house because all she wants to do is wear jeans out in public. I just think it's so sad because that becomes her goal, what she can't wait, her focus. I just don't want, or we don't want like clothing and body image to be the focus so when whenever there's something that's too strong or too talked about then that is what they talk about so much and so um but that body I'm looking at body image here on one of the

question two and that that's definitely a hard one I think hard when you have teenagers teenage girls that um they want to look like everybody else or they care about what their body looks like. And I think we just always encourage them about health. I love health and love studying health. And so we've always done a lot of work with just teaching them to eat really healthy. And so I think when conversations come up where someone's not feeling skinny or feeling like, you know, they're the biggest one in the family or any of those kinds of things, I, we just always try to point them towards like, well, like, do you feel healthy? And then usually the answer is no. So

then, well, what are you, what are you eating? What is no so then well what are you what are you eating what are you not doing what are you exercising let's let's focus on that so that it's not just how you look but um how healthy are you because i i talked to them a lot about like you can be so skinny and be on your deathbed and not not healthy so we want strong bodies not not super skinny but still eating healthy and some bodies are different. Yeah. Going back to the clothing thing too, I think we try to be more relaxed in clothing that really isn't in the modesty category.

Even like if they wanted to get multiple piercings or wear all black or dye their hair or something. I mean, none of our kids really wanted to dye their hair, but I mean, I think if we give leeway on stuff that really isn't to me, it doesn't really matter. I don't know. I mean, and they're too young to get a tattoo,

but if they, you know, whatever they want to do, it's like, to me, all those things are like, I want to give a lot of grace and freedom in that. So when it does come to more modesty issues,

I can say, look, you know, that we're lenient. We're not strict parents on this stuff. But when it comes to modesty, we're dealing with more moral categories now, whereas the other stuff is just not moral. I mean, they could shave their head if they want to do and that they wouldn't. But I mean, it's like, so that's not the hill I want to die on. So what I tell them is that anything permanent

or anything visibly permanent or that could leave a scar or anything that's somewhere visible, they have to wait until, like, I would say, yeah, leave the house and make your own decisions with that. So, like, one of our daughters wanted a nose ring, which I think nose rings can look really great, but also if you decide you don't want it anymore, you're going to have a scar on your nose. And so just in their young years where they, you know, they just are so

convinced by the person sitting next to them, um, getting a note, you know, um, if they, if she decides to get a nose ring as she gets older and she's really thought about it for many years, I'd be all for it. So, um, I, anything permanent, I mean, they all talk about different tattoos, they want to get everything, which is fine as long as they've thought really, like multiple years on it, and I want them at least old enough to where they're not in like 14, 15 years old where they're going to change their mind in the next minute. I think teenage girls change their mind. Yeah.

Oh man. We, I got more to say, but why don't we keep going? Cause there's so many other questions here. Okay. I'm really looking forward to this episode. Okay. Oh yeah. I thought you were reading it. Sorry. My wife and I have really tried to have continuous open age appropriate dialogue about reproduction and sex with our three kids who are 13, 10, and 8. The topics of homosexuality, transgender, etc. has rarely come up. Can you speak to how to approach this conversation in a healthy way. Let me start by saying for us, it's a little bit unique given the ministry that I have that I've got like, you know, sex books lying around the

house and I give seminars and talks. If I get asked to preach a sermon at a church, it's usually on sexuality and gender. So our kids are kind of used to it. But I mean, that's, it's kind of like, I don't, I'm curious how we would have done it if this wasn't my primary ministry, but overall, I mean, I think, um, would, I would be a huge advocate of starting very early and making it very just normal, not taboo, but just talking about sex and stuff in a way that doesn't make it kind of a weird conversation. But Chris, you've done an amazing job at that more than I have. So do you have any thoughts on that? Well, it makes me immediately think the very first time I remember thinking, oh, man, this

is the first time we're seeing it was we were at the beach. We were living in California. So it must have been, I mean, let's see, we've been here for five years. I mean, maybe like eight years ago. So our oldest is 16. So it'd make her eight. So let's, yeah. So let's say eight.

I remember we were at the beach and we saw a wedding of two brides and it was two dresses. And we were sitting there watching and, you know, next thing you know, they're like, wait, why is there two wedding dresses? You know, and so that was like our very first, um, encounter and then with the kids. And then, um, not too long after that, we were sitting at, I mean, it must've been months or so that where we're sitting at a restaurant and we saw two boys kissing. So, um, that was eight years old. And I remember right then and there, and this was before you even started. I mean, maybe were you writing people? I might have just started blogging about it. Yeah.

And I remember thinking, oh, I want to have these first conversations with them. I want to talk. Like I was not, I didn't rush them off from the beach and say, oh, don't look and everything. I was like, let's sit here and watch this. Let's see how this is done. Because I knew if the world is heading this way, I'm not going to, like, not try to talk to the kids about it. I want to be the first one talking to them about it. So that was kind of the very first thing is I think we, and from then on, it was just, yeah, what did you notice? Did you notice those two girls holding hands?

What do you think of that? Or, you know, and, um, just open conversations from the very beginning, but at the same time, we have open conversations with the kids about everything. So it's kind of, we don't really have, I mean, almost probably to a fault. Sometimes we feel like, oh, maybe we shared too much or we've talked too much, but, um, I would rather have really close relationships with the kids where they feel like they can ask us anything. And I really do think so. I don't think there's, they, there's not anything that they don't ask. And, um, and so, yeah, I think to, yeah, like, I mean, if I'm thinking about kids 13, 10, and 8, and if you don't feel like it's really rarely come up, I'll tell you, I'm sure that they've already talked about it or with other people or they have had thoughts or their curiosity has already hit. So right now at this time and in this age, it's never too early.

I mean. Yeah. And yeah, there's always age appropriate ways to do it, you know, and I think you just have to navigate that. And I've tried to, especially through the research and ministry I've been engaged in, I've really tried to take the same kind of grace truth paradigm and, you know, lead our kids in that way, because like some kids will be more naturally more judgmental or pharisaical, right? And they're going to look at that and have kind of the, ew, or ooh, that's wrong, you know? And it's like, I'm going to kind of correct that kind of

reaction, you know? I want them to see all people as equally in need of Jesus, you know? At the same time, if they're kind of just overly permissive just in general or just like, you know, I don't want to say anything or even think anything that's critical of another way of life. I'm like, well, that's not really a Christian approach either. So trying to, you know, figure out which way they lean and try to navigate a healthy grace truth perspective on that. So, yeah, I remember one time. Do you remember this? We're at the water park several years ago and there was a man in a, I mean, a man, man, not just like, but a man in a, in a, like a bikini or something. Right. And I remember Kaylee or, you know, they were staring and they're kind of, kind of a negative reaction,

but it's like, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't, I want them to say, wow, that person, I bet they really need Jesus, you know, and not just assuming just because the man was unaddressed, he needs Jesus, but probably does, right? Just like we all do. So I just, yeah, I want to kind of dispel that, dispel, dispel, dispel, discourage. I don't know that word. You're not going to help me out here. All right. I want to discourage kind of having that maybe a pharisaical, judgmental kind of reaction rather than a gracious reaction while maintaining a firm commitment to the truth. And yeah, it's super hard. It's not easy with kids.

So yeah, so I would say start talking to them about it. And just start asking questions rather than coming out and saying, you know, let's see what the Bible says about this. But just ask questions like, what have you guys noticed? What have you, what do you see if they're in school? What do you see in your schools? Do you ever have, um, our kids talking about this? What are, and just, um, I just think at the beginning, just without giving a parental, um, answer for everything, just really listening and hearing what, where they're coming from, because when you know where they're coming from, then you can know how to respond. I think a lot of times as parents, we just, we already know the right answer and we just want to teach it to them,

but, um, that doesn't always work. And so, yeah, I would just say, if you haven't talked to them yet, 13, 10 and eight, then spend some time just asking questions, asking them what they think of it and what other kids are saying, what other kids think. And, um, and then just be a listener for a little while. And then I think that a lot of times fosters into questions that they would maybe ask you if they feel like you're safe or you're feeling, I think because also too, we were talking with a friend of ours last year, I think it was. And I forget the exact situation, but I remember their daughter was a teenager and was all of a sudden like standing up for like kids in her school that were, you know, having different struggles, whether it was homosexuality or transgender thing and the

parent was just shocked because she was like why are you why are you standing up for him and it was almost like she felt like this like she didn't want like the parents so she already knew her parents view and she didn't want her parents just saying like negative things about and I and I thought um if you if you have a safe relationship with your kids and they know that you're not going to just put their friends down or people down, then they'll feel more open to talk about it rather than to just say, you know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. Yeah. No, that's the thing.

Like the ultimate goal. I mean, your kids are thinking what they're thinking. They have questions that they have questions about. They will choose to talk to you honestly about that if they know that you're a safe person to talk to. It's not going to come right out and judge them, but it's actually going to listen to them. So yeah, like even in that situation, it's like, you know, it's almost like the parent interpreted them as standing up for their friends as like, you know, being, I don't know, theologically affirming or whatever, when it's like the kid was just doing something right, right?

I mean, kids were being bullied or being made fun of, and she stood up for them. That's like awesome, you know? But because they, in this specific topic, they hadn't had kind of an open conversation, already it was kind of going in a direction where, you know, where the kid didn't seem to, you know, be able to trust their parents as much as

they should have I think they end up working out and that'd be great but um yeah I think just being like at the end of the day I want my kids to know that they can talk to me about anything there's not a single thing they're struggling with or have questions about then I'm gonna you know look at them like oh wow you know and and and even have the slightest judgmental mentality, even though I might be able to give them some guidance that they may not want to, you know, they may not agree with where they know that they can just talk to us about about anything. I think with all these questions, that's kind of the foundation thing, right? Yeah. And you being the I think you being the first person that talks to them about it opens up the door for them coming back to you.

If they've already talked about certain topics with, like, friends for a long period of time, it's going to be more awkward and harder for them to come talk to you. So that was always our approach is let's be the first ones. Even with, like, dating and stuff, I always think about that. I mean, none of our kids are dating anybody or anything, kids are dating anybody or anything, but I always, I would love to be the first one that they would come to with a crush or with, you know, if they're thinking about someone. So I, you know, periodically just ask them, like, if they are thinking anybody's cute or if they're interested in anybody. And that way it's more of a normal conversation rather than the first time they have

to admit to the family that they like someone, which I just don't want that to be. And so it's finding the balance. You don't want to start too soon where it's like putting thoughts into their minds. But, you know, I mean, we always talk along. This is more dating, but about, you know, when the time is right, I'll be so excited for you. And when the person is good, we be so excited for you and if the when the person is is good we can't wait to celebrate with you so anyways just being the first to have conversations with them about different topics yeah all right let's move on to the next one there's three questions related

to spanking uh grace base parenting and discipline and rules versus punishment and all these things. I won't read them word for word. But what one person did say, you know, as someone who believes in nonviolence, what is your take on spanking as a form of discipline? So do you want me to lead with this one or do you want to go? Yeah. We've kind of shifted. I mean, I think this is one of the hardest answers for us because we definitely have changed.

Yeah, do it all over again. Here's the one. So for us, I mean, yeah, we spanked. We spanked our kids when they were young. And for us, given the environment we grew up in, we didn't question it. It was almost like immoral not to spank, right? Right. I mean, both of us, it wasn't even like, oh, my gosh. And I feel like in our environment, it was like if our kid was just even out of hand a little bit and people were kind of waiting, you know, when are you going to spank him? You know, like.

Right. So we didn't really reflect on it. And this was long before I even got into nonviolence. So this was, you know, let's see, I wrote that book in 2012, came out in 2013. I would say it was probably 2010, 2011 when I even started thinking about nonviolence. But even then, it's almost like for a few years, I didn't even apply it to this question. I didn't even think about it. It wasn't like, if you've read my book, Fight, I don't have a section on there on spanking or corporeal punishment. Corporal.

How come I can't say that? Corporal. Corporal. Not corporeal. Corporal. Corporal. What was it? You say it. Corporal. I think.

It's easier said than done. So it wasn't until the last few years when i mean it's kind of i don't say it's a cop-out but we're kind of past the age of spanking anyway so we haven't really maybe at the tail end of cody i mean he was a good kid he's had a spanking he had a couple but yeah so our kids yes some of our kids you you know, how do I say it? Required, not required, because I nullify what we're saying, but. Was a little more challenging. But other ones, like we can just look at them and say, you shouldn't have done that.

And they kind of burst out crying and say, I'm so sorry. And write us a card and give us like money and, you know, because they feel so bad. like money and, you know, because they feel so bad. So I, yeah, I mean, I would lean away from spanking now. I'm not sure if I'm 100% against it, though. Are you? Would you say you are? I would not be able to. Would you say for yourself or for just as a Christian principle?

Yeah, I just, it doesn't feel right. So you're basing your theology on feelings? Yes, whatever you want it to be. No, I feel like there's a lot of other means that could be a lot more effective. I feel like, I'm like with, with our one daughter that was more challenging, I don't even think giving her more spankings even worked or helped. I mean, it didn't do, you know, that's what she remembers. She remembers a lot of that of spanking. And I just think, um, I just don't, I'm not convinced that that is the best method. I think it's very easy to cross the line when you're mad. And as much as, as we try incredibly hard and tried to, um, to not spank while you're angry, the fact is, is I'm sure everyone could admit this. You probably do it six times out of 10 and be,

you know, unless you're like really cooling down. And so I just think that that's such a, it's such a scary method of when you're mad to just do a quick. I always felt bad about that. And even if you look at like, say, spanking as a non-punitive discipline versus a punitive, like, is it a punishment for a wrong they did or a form of directing them onto the right path? Like, I would now say that I think spanking as a form of punishment for a wrong they did is not teaching them good theology in a sense. Like, we believe that Jesus took 100% of our punishment. So if they're getting spanked as a form of punishment,

we're teaching them through a physical act. I mean, again, this is stronger than just verbal teaching. This is actually building into them this idea that they need to atone for their sin, that the spanking, that Jesus' death wasn't enough, really. And that's where I started getting really guilty. And I can't even say I stopped right away, but I was like, man, if it's like, you did this wrong, you're getting spanked. And then I turned right around and now let's talk about the atoning work of Jesus. It's like it doesn't, and they catch it.

They see the contradiction there. But if it's, what about like, okay, what about this? You have a one-year-old kid. And like when we lived in Scotland, they had the, and you UK listeners out there know what I'm talking about. Like, you know, they have the heaters. Oh, yeah. This is like, I don't know how the child safety code. The wall heaters.

The wall heaters that are like a thousand degrees filled with hot water going through it. And when you have a one-year-old kid crawling around and they're about to touch the water heater and we, you know, okay, we'll redirect them. We'd redirect them. But then some of our kids, even at one years old, like, oh, if they're being redirected, they're going to go back stronger, you know? And I will say a slap on the hand as they were about to touch. I don't know in that situation. Like again, I'm not, they're not, it's not a punishment, but I'm trying to redirect them away from that. So I don't know.

Well, that's a hard example because if they just touch it once, they're not going to touch it again. So that's on their own. So it's kind of like. So let them touch this. Well, yeah, I probably would sit with them and have their hand go as close to it as possible. Like take their hand, go as close to about two and be teaching them hot,

hot. Now, if they say no, like keep telling, no, no, show how hot it is. Um,

you know, it, and then if they touched it once, I know they're not gonna do that. So that's a, that's a harder example. Um, but,

um, that, that's why if it's like training, I don't know. Yeah. I feel like there were situations though where i'm like i can't they're too young to reason or they're being unreasonable and yeah i and i don't want them to feel like they can just get away with what they want to do like i think that's equally dangerous right wouldn't you say i mean but are you saying that there's always there always is an alternative form of discipline that isn't corporeal well i would say so i would say probably

as i'm thinking back probably the hardest stage with the spanking and the disciplining is like the twos and threes when tantrums begin right so trying to think like i was just in the store the other day and this little two-year-old is just screaming bloody murder up and down the um the aisles and just i mean everybody was commenting everyone was so annoyed and i'm trying to think like that that's a hard stage because there's there's no reasoning there's no like what are you gonna you know what are you gonna do with them and stuff and i think where, like, our life has to be so flexible enough to just leave the store. Because, like, in that situation, we would have taken them to the bathroom and spanked them. And if they did it again, we'd spank them again or take them out.

And letting that go unchecked, wouldn't you agree, is also incredibly dangerous. Like, did the parent do anything or did they just pretend like it didn't exist? Yeah. I mean, it's hard because it's like, you know, she to get her groceries and get out i'm sure i'm sure she was trying to go as fast as she can and um you know um so that is that is a hard thing but i just don't know if the baby screams at you and you spank out of frustration and everybody knows that kind of screaming in your face there's You can't hold it. Like you can't be calm like with the baby screaming at you. So that's to be able to spank in a way that works with them is not helpful.

I mean. What would you do? So what do you do? Like what would you tell that parent in an ideal situation for non-spanking? Would you say you just pick them up and leave? Or is there some sort of. Yeah? I do think our kids are more, they can understand. They know exactly from the time, even eight months, they know. Like when you tell them, you know, like sit down and you'll get this ice cream, you know,

and you teach, show them to sit down, they'll be on their best behavior for something good. So I think at a very young age, like they're very aware. So I think on the reverse, you know, you can. So in that situation, though, like what do you say? You look at them and say, no, stop. And of course, the kid is going to keep screaming. Yeah, I would definitely leave this door, leave this door, go sit in the car, buckle them all up and say, you know, in a calm voice, we're going to go sit in the car buckle them all up and say you know in a calm voice we're gonna go back in and um i would probably say something like i've been thinking about this if we're gonna go back

in and shop if you scream then i'm gonna take you home and give you a cold shower and really yeah give a cold shower a freezing cold shower and just you know is that okay that's i don't think yeah you're not doing oh no this is so hard no i like hose them off but i think that i think at two and three they can fully understand that oh boy they you know so you wouldn't do a positive reward like hey if you stop screaming i will give you this candy or whatever. Not for that, but I am very big on positive reinforcement, but not when they're doing something wrong. Cold shower. I've never heard you say that.

Ice bath. If you keep screaming, you're going in the ice. And then the hot tub. Oh, my goodness. Yikes. Oh, my gosh. Should we move on? Or is this?

I mean, this is really. Yeah, this is a hard one. It's super hard. Because there are certain. I think back. And there's certain situations that if I said zero spanking, I'm like, I don't know what I would have done in a situation where it wouldn't. Because I think it's equally, if not more dangerous, to let a tantrum go.

I mean, can you. Like building into your kid the idea that if they scream loud enough, they will get their way, that's like dangerous, right? Well, I remember it kind of clicked. I think our oldest was like five or six, and I remember I asked her, would you rather a spanking or would you rather like not have dessert tonight or something? I remember it was like something. And she right away was like, oh, I'll take the spanking.

Because she's like, oh, it's quick and easy. It's done. And right then and there, I'm like, oh, you're not getting one. And so then what I realized with her and with all, like kind of carried on with all all of the kids but that um you got to figure out what did it what matters to them and what means a lot and what what's a hard thing like you're not gonna have dessert tonight when we're going over to our friend's house you know and that was stick with it you have to stick with it but but so anyways i I at this point, I mean, it's easier like now that we're on this end, but I would probably use every other approach as possible than spanking. Better. Not easy.

Yeah. All right. Let's keep going here. Here's the sex one. I feel like you do have to say at least a verse because somebody is going to ask. But like, you know, what about the verse that says, if you withhold the rod, you're not loving? So what would you say? Well, that's, yeah.

So that's what we did. We said the proverb, we used to say the proverbs command us to do this. First of all, the proverbs aren't commands. They're more general principles of wisdom. And secondly, that's on the other side of the cross. Like, I do think there is something really theological about this question, like on this side of Jesus, um, when Jesus took our punishment, I think that does reshape even things like parenting. And so, yeah, in the Old Testament, you have things like violence and corporeal

punishment and everything, but I think that's, it's significant that it is in, in the Old Testament, you have things like violence and corporeal punishment and everything. But I think it's significant that it is in the Old Testament. But there's a book. I tell you, this is a book written on it that talks about kind of like why things change from Old and New Testament on corporeal punishment. Corporal. Okay, don't say that word anymore. Corporeal. What's corporeal?

I don't know, but it's not. Okay, don't say it again. Corporal. That's,poreal. I don't know, but it's not. Okay, don't say it again. Corporal. That's, like, embarrassing. Everybody on the other end is thinking, that is an annoying word. The other day I said nuclear family. Whoa. It's nuclear.

There's no, did you know that? Somebody, like, was laughing in the back. I'm like, why are you laughing? They said, you said nuclear family. I said, that's what it is, right? And they said, no, it's nuclear. And I was like, oh, my gosh, you're right. I'm like, why are you laughing? They said, you said nuclear family. I said, well, that's what it is. Right. And they said, no, it's nuclear. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. All right, moving on. Let's talk about sex. My wife and I are talking about kids right now. So this is prescient.

What's sex like once kids are in the house, I'm really weirded out by that. How did you know you wanted to have kids? We can start with the easy one first. Uh, we both wanted kids before we, when we're dating, that was, yeah. If you're out there and you're dating, I would make that really clear up front. Um, and I've, I've really talked to you too much about this. My podcast listeners know it. Well, I, I just, I, and we don't need to dig into this too much, but I just, I do think that marriage and sex is oriented towards having kids. Like, I think we've too flippantly severed kids from the making of them. You know, like we've just said, oh, no, sex is for pleasure.

It's what married people do. It's romance. And, oh, yeah, if you also want to have kids, then that's, you know, a totally separate choice. I just think that that way of thinking is a product of our modern-day culture. Like, I mean, clearly God designed sex for procreation. And, again, obviously it doesn't happen all the time. Obviously there's things like infertility or old age, whatever. But to say, no, I'm totally going to have sex and have no desire to have kids,

I would say the burden of proof rests on you to say, well, wait a minute. If you are truly called to marriage, which involves sex, which is designed to be procreative, give me a reason why you would say I want to go against. And maybe you do. Maybe you're like, well, we want to adopt or whatever. But yeah, so I would say if you feel called to marriage, you might also be called to having children or trying to, I don't know. And it sounds kind of Catholic, but yeah. All right. Um, all right. So do, how deep do we want to go here into the sex after kids are in the house? I'll let you lead. You're a little more private on this. Yeah. Um, well well i think it's um let's see i think for us it's been it

not just having kids but as they've gotten to be teenagers and we've had conversations with them and like i said we have open conversations about everything so naturally they feel complete, like, ability. So when do you and dad do it? Did you last do it last night, this morning? Oh, which, yeah, I tell. I mean, I do say, you know, those are, those are, those, those specific questions are for me and dad and in our marriage. And so they don't need to know those kind of things, but they, you know, they want to. In fact. They want to know?

Yeah. Well, she, one of them just asked. Yeah, I always wonder like when you do because your door is open at night. So, yeah, we... And this is where we disagree in our marriage.

I'll just say it this way. Preston wants to close the door at all times and I cannot have the door closed because I've tried so hard. Why? I don't understand why. Because if there's a robber

that comes into our house... There's no robbers in Boise. Uh-uh. If a robber comes comes into our house. There's no robbers in Boise. If a robber comes in our house, I want to hear it right away. I want to hear if there's any sounds. And so me closing off my door makes me feel like I'm not protecting the kids. So it's a really hard thing for me. So that makes it really hard.

I'm a pacifist. What am I going to do anyway? Well, I'll protect him. So anyway, so that's a hard thing. So yeah, we don't close our door at all times. And so if it did happen to be closed, they'd be like, what's wrong with mom and dad? Oh, are they doing that thing? Like, I mean, it'd be weird, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I would say after having kids, yeah, that it's way more difficult. Yeah. Way more difficult. Yeah. Way more difficult. I mean, especially if you have little kids. Do you want to speak to that as a mom with four smaller children at home? I mean, I think you're able to more because, I mean, our kids just went to sleep at 730. Desire, yeah, is definitely hard.

But when you have little kids, you fall asleep at 731. And I think that has to be part of just your love for one another. And I think that has to be part of just your love for one another, that your commitment for one another, and that if you're just waiting around until you feel like it or you want to, then it might not happen when you have little kids because you're tired. And by 7.30, I was ready to go to bed too. The kids were in bed at 7.30. I was ready to go to sleep at 8.

So, yeah, i think just knowing that you're serving one another in that way especially you know for us women to serve our husbands more in in that area no we good yeah anymore all right uh okay my wife and I have kids ages 8, what? Oh, 5 kids. What, right? Yeah, we're good. Okay. My wife and I have 5 kids ages 18 to 5.

What is your approach to speaking biblical truth into your children's lives? We've tried to have scheduled devotional times where we read God's word together and have discussions, but I have wondered often if this is the best approach versus something more organic. I've taken the approach that God's words are life and they are critical to our family's growth and unity. But sometimes I feel more like a Bible drill sergeant than a loving teacher. What approach do you guys have? And there's another question that's kind of similar to this that talks about instilling faith into your kids, about instilling faith into your kids,

tips for praying with kids, even praying in kind of a glib, superficial way, like, God, we pray that you have a really fun day tomorrow, you know, is that teaching them the true meaning of prayer and so on and so forth. So, yeah, so we definitely have taken, we've kind of been all over the map on this, not really intentionally. I'm sometimes it's like, man, we'd love to read the Bible more, but we're just, yeah, we get tired. Life gets crazy or whatever, or kids are going different

directions or, or I'm out of town and we woke up late, whatever. Like there's, there's natural things in life that have, you know, they come up that make it more difficult to have the more scheduled time. But then also we would be much more on the organic rhythm of life thing to where we do spend. It's almost like there's an, just an, throughout the day, there's an ongoing open conversation where God and the Bible is hopefully integrated into various aspects of life rather than kind of a scheduled time. Having said that, though, I mean, I personally would like to do more of the scheduled stuff than I typically do. I mean, you've probably been better at that than I have. Well, I think when the kids were little and they went to bed at 730, that was very,

it was such an easier time. I know at that time I felt like life was so busy. And now I think on this end, having more teenagers, that's when life is busy. I mean, our kids are staying up later than we are and they want to talk late. And so, but when they were little and they sleep at 7.30, we would do, you were really good at reading the Bible to them every night, really. I mean, you weren't traveling that much when reading the bible to them every night really i mean you weren't traveling that much when they were little so every night you know for half an hour you just read them stories and and they loved that and i they still talk about that and um and then i think it's it's changed now that you know different schedules we have different activities at night and different

um you know kids staying up at different times and going to bed at different times so that's made it really hard and um i think yeah our our way of of just family is more organic so it would be it's not really like us to like get up and have rigid like you know 6 30 bible time and but you last year you were doing your devotions with kalia yeah is that when she was at yeah yeah yeah so wouldn't she before she would go to school we'd have a little like 15 20 minute time together but i think it's more it needs to like for us it's just i don't like things that i get so bored with the same thing over and over in life so if it's just always the way you you know, this is how we always do

it for, for me personally, I just, I just get just, I feel like it just becomes too ritual and bored with it. So I, I look at each stage at different as like, oh, well this stage, this will work or this chapter in our life. Well, this will work better. I mean, the one thing I, I really do love praying and I always have. So I think all throughout the day. I mean, the one thing I really do love praying, and I always have, so I think all throughout the day, me and the kids will just pray randomly. If we see something or if we hear something, we'll just like, let's just pray real quick or let's pray for one another. And so it's a lot easier for me with the kids to do that

and just teach them to let's just point it back to Jesus. and just teach them to, let's just point it back to Jesus. And then reading, well, when everyone was homeschooling, it was a lot easier because before we started school, we would just all read and do a little devotional. This last year, everyone was kind of going in different directions. A couple of them were in school and others in part-time school and different things. So that's made it a little more difficult. Maybe something I think we would love to be a little bit more consistent on, but I just think there has to be some grace and just the way our life is, is going and where it is, where it's at,

but mainly just having open conversations, you know, like. The main goal is like I want them to like actually love the Bible and sometimes going about this in the wrong way could not help that. It could hinder it. You know, how many people do you know are raised in really strict, you know, Bible teaching kind of families that ended up just kind of hating the Bible, you know? And I don't know if that's, I think it's the parents' fault or anything, but I mean, yeah, the ultimate goal is that they would love, love Jesus and love the faith and love reading the Bible. And I, I'm, I'm really blown away at how much our three oldest just have taken on their own to like read almost every day and study. And this, like, it's been like a year since that really clicked for some reason.

What do you think that was? I mean, I'd like to think because of us, but I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Different things. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. All right. Last question here. How do you balance protecting children from evil in the world while still preparing them to handle that evil as an adult? Or another way to phrase it would be, how do you balance trying to give your children an innocent childhood without making them so sheltered that they can't handle the real world? This is a fantastic question. And I don't, man, this is kind of the gist of parenting here, right? I mean, this is kind of like the 30,000 foot look at that tension. I mean, just the fact that you're asking the question speaks volumes. I think this is, because some people don't ask the question.

They would just do one or the other. Like, no, we need to throw our kids in the world at five years old. And that's how you, you know, they become disciples. And other people, no, you need to shelter them completely. And that's how they, you know, protect them from all the evil. And we would like, as you could probably guess, take somewhere in the middle road generally. I mean, because we've homeschooled all of our kids at some point. Now, all of them now have been in public school at some point, too.

And now they're in a kind of a hybrid. They go to school two days a week and they're home the other two days. Fridays are off. Yep. We party on Fridays. So I think because we have, for the most part, homeschooled our kids most of their years, we try to offset that to some extent by talking through the world and exposing them. So we've tried to put them in different things and, or even like,

I don't know, like we're fairly lenient on music and movies. I know it's leading to some people actually, we're kind of in the middle of that. I mean, but we, we try to talk through like, you know, all of our kids know culture fairly well. They know pop music. We go on mission trips. We travel a lot together. We try to, we try to expose them to the world and live in the world with, but with them. And so that we can kind of disciple them in that. But, um, that may,

I don't know, makes it sound too good. Is that, I mean, we were just kind of shooting from the hip with a lot of this stuff, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've never been ones to shelter our kids or want to shelter the kids. So we always put them in activities. They're always around other people and adults. And, I mean, we don't shy away from anybody that looks different than us or maybe looks edgy or anything. If anything, we kind of run straight to them if we see people, you know. So I think, but I guess our approach was that we actually want them to very much be aware of the

world and love people in the world, but we want to be just their main influence in their younger years. And so that's kind of why we started homeschooling. Cause it was just give us, give us some extra years with them when they're younger to be, um, as much of an influence, have much, as much, uh, impact in their lives as, um, than somebody else would. Um, so, um, and then with that, being able to just figure out life kind of together and how what it looks like. And so, yeah. All right. Well, let's wrap it up. Thanks so much, you guys, to my Patreon supporters for these wonderful questions. If you have more, you'll probably have more.

They're going to be sent in because I asked I asked guys just under two days ago to submit your questions. So if you have more questions you're going to submit, um, I'll try to do those at a later podcast. Maybe it'll be a Patreon only podcast or something in July. So thanks so much for your questions. Uh, any parting words for our parents or aspiring parents out there, Chris? Um, no, but I was thinking with questions, if you have more questions, um, it would be fun to do like, what would you do on, and it would it would have to like we could just give real quick answers of just first thing that comes your mind what would you do on these circumstances maybe that could be kind of yeah because it's so much easier when you are not in this situation

to look at another person's situation and say oh try, try this or, you know, so, but yeah, I mean. What do you do when your kid's screaming in the store? Ice bath. All right, let's close out. Thanks for listening to Theology Narah. We will see you next time. Thank you.