Theology in the Raw - 756: #756 - A Transgender Christian’s Journey with Jesus: Kat LaPrairie

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

Preston talks with one of his good friends, Kat LaPrairie, about their experience as a transgender Christian. And yes, Kat and Preston talk quite a bit about what Kat means by “transgender,” along with many other topics related to gender dysphoria, transgender/non-binary identities, masculinity and femininity, sex-segregated bathrooms, and how the church can better love trans-identified people. Follow Kat on Social: Instagram | Facebook Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hello friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I will be in Fort Wayne, Indiana in a week and a half on September 16th and September 17th. I will be in Richmond, Virginia September 23rd, 24th. I will be in New York City September 27th, 28th, and I will also be in Colorado Springs in October 8th and October 9th and in Minneapolis, November 5th. And gosh, I don't know the date in front of me. I think it's November 12th as well. So you can check out centerforfaith.com, go to the events link, and it will take you to a bunch of speaking engagements that I'll be involved in. And most of these events, you'll have to register ahead of time. So if you want to attend one of these events, pretty much all of them have to do with sexuality and gender on some level.

So if you could care less about that conversation, then I still invite you to come out and engage that conversation because you could, you should care about the conversation. If you're a Christian, if you're a human, you should be asking questions and sorting through what you believe about sexuality and gender. So I invite you to come out to one, two, three, or all those events. Maybe you can just be a, I don't know, sexuality and gender groupie and just follow me around the country. That'd be awesome. It'd be so cool. Anyway, check out centerforfaith.com events for those various speaking engagements that I'll be involved in. Also, I am running a, I don't know, if you want to call it a promotion, I recently released an audio version, an audio book of

People to be Loved. Most of you probably know about that book. I wrote People to be Loved, it came out in 2015 by Zondervan and Zondervan just recently released an audio version of that book. Up until now, there hasn't been an audio version of People to Be Loved. Now, I did not record the audio version. They actually hired a professional to do that. So it's actually better. I think you would rather have a professional reading it than me. Anyway, I am giving away, um, well, six free copies of the audio version of people to be loved for those who sign up for my personal newsletter at

Preston sprinkle.com. So if you have not signed up for my newsletter, then go to Preston sprinkle.com sign up for my newsletter, which I am. Um, I, I am. I typically write newsletters twice a month. I haven't done it for a couple of years, actually, but I just started doing it again this summer. Two newsletters a month. And in order to motivate people to sign up for my newsletter, I'm giving away six free copies of the audio book of People to be Loved. So if you sign up in the month of September, you will be put into a hat. And I mean, that might actually be a very literal scenario, your name actually might be printed out and put into an actual hat. I don't know. I don't know how we're gonna do it. But we're gonna pick six of you. Those of you who sign up in the month of

September for my newsletter at PrestonSprinkle.com will be put into a drawing to win one of six free copies of the audio book for people to be loved. Okay. That's PrestonSpringgold.com. If you go there, you should get some kind of pop-up that tells you to sign up for my newsletter. And if you don't get a pop-up, then there's a link there somewhere to sign up for the newsletter. I have on the show today, a good friend of mine, Kat LaPrairie. Kat is an amazing individual. Kat, I denominated as a transgender Christian. Kat was raised in a Christian home. And she, I don't know, she's gonna tell her story. I don't want to give too much away. But she, Kat, and I can say she, we talked about the pronouns, the whole pronoun thing. So she's okay with me saying she, she prefers Kat or sometimes they, them is okay as well. But, um, Kat's an amazing

individual. I just, I respect her so much. I've known her for the past year and a half. We've done ministry together. I've learned so much from Kat. And Kat is just a delightful, enjoyable, gospel-centered human being who identifies as transgender and a Jesus follower. And I know for some of you that might be messy and complex and confusing. So all the more reason to continue to listen to this episode. So without further ado, please welcome to the show, Kat LaPerry. All right, we are live with Kat LaPerry. Kat, thanks so much for being on Theology in the Rock. Yeah, thank you for having me.

I'm so stoked to have you on, man. This is going to be so much fun. Okay, so why don't we just start? I want you to tell your story. And then we have, there's so many different like strands within your story that I've learned from, that we've kind of talked about, that I've heard you share from stage. And so I'm just super excited for my audience really to hear your whole story. And then we're going to try to drill down into as many of those kind of strands that are woven throughout your story as we can. So who is Kat? Awesome. Yeah. So I identify as transgender, and I use that term to describe the disconnection that I feel from my internal self and what body I was born into. So just kind of that disconnection that I've always felt. It's always been there.

So I was born and raised in a Christian home. I attended the same Baptist church all growing up. And I always knew that I was a little different, but you don't really know exactly why or how until you kind of know. So I was always accepted. I was just kind of known as the tomboy cat. And yeah, I really I didn't have any like bullying experience or anything like that. So yeah, but I was born and raised up into like the purity movement. And so kind of this whole thing about femininity and how do we honor God with our bodies and how do we honor God with our femininity. And so I saw myself as not being feminine, especially, you know, to my other, my other peers. So, you know, I kind of got nervous.

I got like a little worried of like, okay, if I'm not this, I certainly am not going to like just change and just kind of fake it. I'm just, I'm not that, I can't, I couldn't, I couldn't just put on a dress and put on the happy face. So I came to my'm not that, I can't, I couldn't, I couldn't just put on a dress and put on the happy face. So I came to my own conclusion that God must have been really unhappy with me. Um, kind of having this frown face of like, you're not living into who I made you to be because you're not feminine. And so when I turned 18 and went off to college, I, you know, I took that time to really just say, like, I've done the God thing. It's not really for me. And it seems like I don't really fit into his kingdom and into his world. You know, there was no talk about LGBT community. There was no talk about,

you know, same-sex attraction. It was just kind of like the silence let, you know, I knew that those picketers, right, they're the rogue type Christians. But since we weren't really addressing it in the churches, it was kind of like, I don't know where my church stands on that side. You know, I knew it was probably the extreme response to picket and to say, you know, God hates gays, but there's no real addressing that. Okay. I usually don't stop people in their story, but this is fascinating. So you're saying that when you had the loud picketers, which is maybe 0.001% of the Christian population. Exactly. Yes. And I knew that at the time as well. But because there was silence in the church, that was the only voice that you heard. And so did you would you're saying that that kind of inevitably became the voice of the church as far as you can tell, because that was the only thing you're hearing.

Yeah. So the silence lets other voices fill in that silence. Exactly. Exactly. It was a prime opportunity for, I think, the church. And I certainly could not articulate this in the moment at all. But it's just like a missed opportunity. You're able to kind of say, okay, these people are right. But everything was just left to like an assumption. And it was like, okay, how much do we disagree?

You know what I mean? So it was kind of like, to what degree are we on that side? And kind of agreeing with that. Wow, that's fascinating. Okay, so fast forward. Yeah. And if I understood you correctly, you're saying that one of the things that pushed you away from your earlier faith is this kind of narrow view of masculinity, femininity that you didn't fit into. So the natural conclusion was, well, assuming this is God's design, therefore, because everybody's telling me that it is, I don't fit that design. Therefore, I must not be within God's sort of design. Right, yeah. I didn't fit the mold, and my mold was not being talked about. There wasn't a place to say, like, you know,

because the disconnection between my body and how I felt was much more present than my attractions to women so like i'm transgender but i also am same-sex attracted um so that came later um so this whole idea of like me sitting in sixth grade bible study kind of a thing you know feeling that that this is just this is different i i'm i'm relating to these people different these girls um because it was you know men over here girls over here um type of thing so so yeah I really just didn't see where I you know single people or you know whatever it would be kind of my my person was not really representative all right so fast yeah fast, yeah. Fast forward to, um, yeah. So I went

off to college and I took that time to just, you know, explore my own self and to really get, um, I didn't really feel like anybody knew me or heard me. Um, and so I used that time to, to start dating. And so I dated women, um, 10 years, like of a serial dating type of lifestyle, you know, just kind of one to the next. You know, my shortest relationship was like six months, but my longest was like three and a half years. So that three and a half year relationship, I started contemplating like, what is my life? What do I want my life to look like? I'm thinking about marriage, you know, we've, we've been dating for a long time. And what is my, what, how do I want my life to look? And church was definitely a part of it. You know, I, I always saw myself having kids and being,

them being raised in the church. I knew that there was some truth to what I was taught and it just didn't work out for me. So, but I wanted that for my partner and I wanted that for my kids, my future kids that I, you know, was dreaming about. So you, you, you did within your dysphoria, you still envision that's a huge coffee mug, by the way. I love that mug. Thank you. Yeah. More the better. Is that as big as it looks or is it just close to the camera yeah yeah it's pretty it's pretty wide it's not very tall but yeah um where was i okay so so you still envision having your own biological kids like what was getting we haven't talked about this i can't even like getting pregnant that would have been like my dream absolutely to have biological kids wow okay um for sure because that's that is stereotypically is a very feminine,

well, I mean, biologically too, but a very feminine. Oh, I'm sorry, me not having them. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but my future wife. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yep.

Okay, sorry. Okay, so go ahead. No worries, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I said, Hey, like, would you be interested in just going to church? Like would you just come back? And, and she said, uh, sure. So we went to a local mega church, um, and we went and I, there were some days that I could stand some days that I couldn't, um,

just kind of taking it all in and, and just being around it, the, the atmosphere again. And so on this one particular Sunday, we'd been going there for a couple months. I went to stand up and like the band was changing to a different song and it was, it was no longer slaves. And it like upon reflection, it just was this huge unveiling and revealing of all the fear that I was living in currently. Like if you would have told me before I walked into that church, hey, you're afraid of all these things, I would have laughed.

I would have said no way. Like I'm uncomfortable, sure. But fear, like I don't think so. So when that song played and it says you're no longer a slave to fear, you are a child of God. So when that song played and it says, you're no longer a slave to fear, you are a child of God. My fear of my, my real, like a realization of the fear that I had going into public bathrooms was just revealed. Like this is, it's more than just uncomfortability.

It's like, you're terrified and I'm calling you into something more peaceful. So it wasn't just like, Hey, you're being a slave to fear. It was also the, even as dramatic as like, I'm calling you into being my child and me breaking those chains off of you. And so like, I'm just there in the pew and I'm just like crying and just can't even control it. Not to mention the fear that I had of, do other people know that we're two women together? Or do they know that I'm, you know, a guy or whatever else? So, yeah, so that happened. I was like, that was weird. And wanted like a more intimate church experience. So I asked my cousin, Stephen,

hey, like, can I go to church with you? He was the drummer and, you know, we'd had many conversations over the years, which just to watch him engage with me and in the topics and just how it's changed is just awesome. So he had my trust. So I went to his church, similar experience where I cried and I'm like, wow, there's something about this whole love thing. Like I'm, that was maybe a piece I was missing before. Is that how much God loves me?

So months go by and this woman comes up to me one day after church and she was like, hey, like I noticed sometimes you come in late or you sometimes don't have somebody to sit with. And I just was putting myself in your shoes and that would be awkward. And so I just wanted you to know that you always have a spot to sit with me and my family. And my two little daughters are over there playing with flags and whatever. And so I just kind of, I like, I was like, oh, thank you, you know, polite. And, but I was just like, oh man, like this is so uncomfortable. And like, you're probably feeling like you have to invite me. And like, I'm really fine sitting off by myself.

So anyway, that's internally what I was all thinking. And then she asked me, you know, hey, like, what do you do for work? And so there, and I don't normally ask back just to have conversation, but I asked her and she said, my husband and I have a ministry and we're working to bridge the gap between the LGBT community and the church. And in that moment, I just was like, blown away. Like, I just kind of like blown away like I just kind of like oh like just kind of dropped my guard like yeah what and it was in that moment that I knew this was no accident yeah like there was no mistaking this this woman and like my reaction of just her coming up to me but her to just had the right words to say.

And the fact that I just asked in that moment, I'm like, okay. But I was still guarded. I was still like really skeptical. And so I just immediately forgot her name. I forgot the name of her ministry and when I'm living my life. When you heard that she had that ministry, if you can remember, I don't know if you can even recall the kind of emotion, but was it one of kind of like, Oh, that's weird. Not sure I'm into that or, Oh, this is inviting. I feel like, wow,

that's awesome. I'd want to know more. Or was, or can you. Yeah. She had like mentioned too, that it was like a part of her story with like the LGBT. And so like, not, not fully though. Like that was it. Yeah. Just like, Oh, it has something to do with my story too, but that's my husband. And so I'm thinking like, from my perspective, when I left the church, it was kind of like you had to choose, you choose a pathway.

And so all this stuff had been kind of stirring up and being talked about. And I really had no context for it. So coming in, I'm picking up where I was 10 years before with like, the church is not okay with gay people or whatever, you know? And so I was thinking, I was very skeptical because I'm like, okay, what is this? Like, I didn't have even the term ex-gay, but like, now that I do, that's kind of what I was thinking. It was like, is this going to be some type of, you know, is this an ex-gay ministry type deal or whatever? And so I looked on her site eventually, and I saw that she was believing in a historic Christian view of marriage and sexuality.

So I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for all that. Like, that's a little much. And so that was like, yeah, to think the opposite, I think would be, yeah, that was a stretch for me. Okay. Yeah. So, but yeah, I was going to counseling for like the whole not being able to cry thing. Like the fact that I just had been able to cry was just crazy and then I had recently come out as trans before that I was I was only out as a lesbian it was the only language I had but I knew it didn't quite fit the whole picture and when I came out as trans it was like that's it like that is what I am that that trajectory is very common right to come out as

lesbian then trans. And I feel like a lot of people, not a lot, I don't have a statistic or anything, but then on the other side of trans is often non-binary. I feel like when some people are like, well, I don't know if I fully see myself as trans. It's just, there's just so much confusion, right? And just searching for what am I, who am I, what am I going through? But the lesbian trans trajectory was pretty common, right? Yeah, I think so.

For me, at least, it was because there was no language. Right. There was nothing like, and the stereotypical trans person that you see is kind of like maybe a person in drag. Okay. Like a guy in drag. And so like very to the opposite, like, whoa, kind of like, again, kind of that outlying type, like the picketer, like whatever. Like it's kind of like the extreme.

I'm like, I'm not that. So there was really no representation of the middle. And honestly, if they were in the middle, they were probably living stealth. You know, they're not out. They're probably just, you you know you would have no idea if you're passing a guy with facial hair and all this other stuff that that person's brands like you would have really no that's a good reminder to our audience that in as much as we don't like the picketer to kind of represent us vice versa you know in the trans community there's always these extreme usually it's kind

of like a yeah a drag person or somebody who's who's clearly like just delusional not because they're trans but just because they're delusional you know or just getting a lot of media attention there's several names i can think of right now that's like wow yeah i think we could all agree that that person needs some serious help but that on your end you're like i don't want that person to represent this probably large yeah like i'm not resonating with that yeah yeah but that's but christians who don't want to be the picketer oftentimes go to those kind of extreme examples on on the other end but right right yeah yeah so um so yeah i just didn't have length so that I was actually able to

sit in it and say, it's an umbrella term. It doesn't necessarily mean, um, because like when I came out at work or was contemplating coming out at work, um, I was like, I don't know if I should, because then they're going to ask, okay, what are your pronouns now? What's your new name? Um, when are you transitioning? And I just wasn't ready to commit to all that if i came out as trans so being able to sit in the fact that it was just like this umbrella term to describe my experience for me that the word transgender resonated whereas other people you know genderqueer or like non-binary that resonates with them transgender just happens to resonate with me um in my perspective of how it's defined. Okay. Yeah. So, so yeah, I started meeting with a counselor to kind of unpack this because I knew

my, my definition for masculinity and femininity were messed up. Like I just knew that nobody had to tell me that they were, I just knew because of how I was like clinging to the world and clinging to media to tell me how to be a man. Like, that's, that's how I was trying to, you know, navigate this whole trans thing. So we were meeting, I was meeting with this counselor and like month of November was like really rough, like super bad dysphoria. Um, I was just constantly looking up YouTube videos on like, you know, um, trans famous people that are just documenting their transition and stuff like that. And so I just couldn't get enough. And, um, I was like,

man, I think like this might be a thing that I need to transition. Um, and so I talked to her about that. I'm like, really bad dysphoria, da, da, da, da, da, in describing this. And she said, you know, whenever you're ready, you just let me know and we'll, I'll help you find the right people to like get you started on testosterone and transitioning. And in that moment, I was, I just felt so uncared about. I just felt like, oh, so we're not actually going to do the hard work of like, why do I think I'm a man? What makes me think that I'm not a woman? We're not going to talk about masculinity. We're not going to talk about femininity. It's just

going to, we're just going to start you on hormones or, or at least start you on that pathway. You know, she didn't have the ability to do that, but it was kind of like, let's get you over there. And so, um, I was like a problem to be fixed rather than walking with me in this difficulty of like, can we figure out why, you know, not that I have like a causation moment but that I understand myself better so that's when I remembered Lori and I remember her um you know so I looked her up on Facebook and I just I just sent her a message and I said like I'm just so tired of hearing what everybody else thinks about my gender identity you know I have my parents who want me to do one thing you know I have probably the church who wants me to do another, you know, well, the same thing. And, you know, I have the world telling me like, just

embrace it. And I'm like, what does God think of me? Like, how does God truly look at me? Because you can't say that he made my body and use that as like a, a grenade to throw at me. Like, but he made you female. Yeah. But he also made my brain yeah so he made like there's this disconnection happening and so i just i believe in a god who would who he's that big like he didn't just create my body he created like all of me and so i i saw it as such a gift but a confusing gift and so she you know, I don't know what he thinks, but I'm willing to like walk with you. And it was just like, okay, I'm really terrified the answer that she's going to have and that we're going to, whatever answers lie ahead, but I'm like, she's willing to walk with it. And so that just really,

that drew me in. And I mean, it's just crazy to think about the first couple of times that we met, you know, like in a Panera, uh, and, and to see our relationship now, um, you know, I just, I just cherish it and value it like so much. Um it was, it wasn't the fact that, cause it wasn't a fact. It wasn't that she had all the right answers. It was a fact that she's willing to walk with you regardless of where that might lead. That was the main draw. Is that right? Would you say, I mean, that that's pretty profound. I mean, it's, it's actually really simple, but it's a, it's a profound point for people

to realize um because right now i mean i get my inbox is just flooded with people how do i walk with my trans kid how do i do you know how do i or what do i do in this situation and and every situation is different and unique or whatever but if what you're saying has some applicability across the board, it's the priority of genuinely walking with somebody. Not so that you can fix them, but walking with them so that you can walk with them, so that you can walk with them, so that you can embody the grace and truth of Christ in this person's journey. Right. Yeah. I mean, I know it had to have been tough for her because I didn't go into her meeting with her saying, okay, I'm single. I have no plan of dating any other women. I was dating. I was dating a woman. And I didn't know about the transitioning thing. I was dating, I was dating a woman and, you know, I didn't know about the transitioning thing. It was scary. Um, because I, I was faced with like, okay, if I do transition,

I'm never going to be accepted as my parents' son. So it was like, it was a lot of different like questions like that. Um, but she went into it saying like, you know, and she, she's already, into it saying like, you know, and she, she's already, she's been able to articulate why she thinks the Bible says this. And, and, you know, as we were, as the transgender conversation is starting to catch up to the sexuality conversation, we're going to have more articulation for why we think God X or Y, you know, kind of thing, why God says this. So for her to say, I already have all this,

I think I know on the transgender side, but the sexuality side, it's a little bit more clear cut for her, um, to her to say like, yes, I'm going to walk with you just so not knowing, um, where I'll end up. So I think that that that is the that's the hard part it's like we want to say yes to walking with people um sometimes but we have like our own agenda but as long as this person you know says no to to dating someone of the same sex or or transitioning or whatever right so all right so we got a bunch of different avenues we can go. So that was about, is it about two years? Or is it coming up on three years now?

Two. Two years. Yeah, that was two years ago. Yeah. So I can say this. I don't know if you'd feel comfortable saying this, but for my audience, Kat has been, I mean, you've been such a blessing and challenge in my life.

I know fewer people, fewer people, is that the right phrase? I know few people who are as authentic and vulnerable and passionate about the gospel as you. And we only know each other largely from a distance, but we've spent some time together and done ministry together. And I'm just so excited to see what God continues to do in and through you. You truly are a gift to the church. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for picking up this conversation and inviting me out. And it's just been awesome.

No, my pleasure. Let's talk about pronouns. And if I can maybe give you a running start, or at least from my perspective, how we've talked about this. of get maybe give you a running start or at least from my perspective how we've talked about this i know early on two two years ago female pronouns were real like you know and i don't think maybe knife in the flesh or just annoying or what's like it's just they they were triggering for lack of better terms um right can you can you give us and then now i think you you've you know you've been a little more okay with them or they're not as triggering as they once were, if I remember correctly. Can you give us for maybe the last two years, a quick snapshot on the significance of pronouns and how you've kind of processed that?

Yeah. So, yeah, like two years ago, it was they, them and cat that I was using. So I prefer my name in place. Usually, for sure, at least two years ago, that was definitely the case. Because when when she is kind of getting placed on me, I feel like somebody is trying to put me inside of a box, or put me inside of like a, you know, a cutout dress, and trying to just put me into that. Of like, this is this is who you know, a cutout dress and trying to just put me into that of like, this is who you are, you know, this is kind of, and define it that way. Knowing that how we look at femininity or women sometimes isn't a compliment, isn't like a, you know, you just don't know somebody's

definition of that. And so from my perspective of the world and kind of what our society is kind of just, you know, feeding into with the she and he pronouns, that just felt like a really big jump that, that I just wasn't ready to, to do that. And I think I wasn't using he to be respectful. To be honest, I probably would have, you know, in my own world, I probably would have used he. But I know that it freaks people out. I know, especially like, just with my parents, like that was just asking way too much too quickly. Yeah. So I used the middle of the road, they. And honestly, cat just felt really good.

Yeah. You know, I feel like a cat. I don't feel like a she or anything else. So for you, she, her, hers conveyed not a reference to simply your biological sex, but it came with it all these kind of stereotypes of femininity. And that's, it was really the stereotypes that, that were really agonizing and what you resisted. Yep.

Okay. And now early, fairly early on, I remember if somebody truly knew you and you knew you were confident that they weren't trying to put you in a box, it was easier for you to hear she or her. Is that. Yeah. Yep. Like with, with Lori, my mentor, like I knew, like she was in the battle, you know, like she was in a fight with me. And so her using she even sister, you know, was, was okay.

It wasn't like, yay, my favorite, but it's, it was like, okay, because I knew where she was at with me, you know, and that she was doing it in a loving way. It wasn't a grenade to say like, you know, whatever. And even if people messed up, you know, for me, your spirit bleeds through that. Like I can just tell. Yeah. So what, what advice would you give to Christians out there who are trying to navigate a relationship with somebody who's trans? And I

know, again, that could be a huge spectrum of types of people, but when it comes to the pronouns, what advice would you give to somebody on the other side on say my side, who do I use a pronoun or not? Am I, am I lying if I use a preferred? Or am I being ungracious if I don't? You know, like, what advice would you give to them? Yeah, I think it's kind of like, what hill are you going to die on type thing? What thing, because everybody has it, is going to say, like, that is the line in which I'm, you know, willing to go to your side of the fence and in knowing that that may put a big barrier up. And so if it's over a pronoun and, and well, she's, you know, biologically female. So that's what I'm going to do. That's okay. Just know that that has

consequences that you're, you're no longer like, so you don't get to do that and then also be a safe person that when they are really struggling, you're the person they come to. It's kind of about feeling where they're at. It's a word. You can kind of make the same argument of, well, I'm not using they or he. It's like, well, why not? It's just a word. It's what they are wanting right now, especially with teens, you know, that stuff changes and it's, it does. And I'm not saying that it's going to change, but, but I think that by letting them

live that out a bit and, and kind of just be in that world and feel safe because they're going to struggle regardless it's whether or not you're there for the struggling or not um that that's kind of the the thing so i would i would use the pronoun i would i would use it because you want you don't want that to be the thing and again it could be like clothing you know that's where we're going to draw the line you're not wearing a dress when you're a guy and but again it's like be able to articulate why yeah that is that that is your line and that's your position and you know i it's kind of similar with like a guy named thomas jefferson he wants to be called tj you know what i mean? Well, that's not your name. Like, I know it's different. I get it. It's a little bit more of a mental gymnastic, but it's kind of the same concept.

It's their preferred name. Yeah. What would you say? I 100% agree. And then we're dealing with just such gray area complex issues and good people are on different sides or whatever. But my evolving position is and maybe still will be, you know, meet somebody where they're at. It's exactly what you said. This is not a hill to die on.

The hill to die on is I want to be in relationship with you. is I want to be in relationship with you. I'm going to do whatever it takes to be that person that you want to open up to and talk to and walk with. Maybe as a long-term discipleship goal, if somebody is genuinely wanting to follow Jesus, you know, as a long-term discipleship goal, I think we can say let's,

in as much as it's possible, identify with the, you know, sex that God has created you as, but that might take a year, two years, 10 years, 30 years. I mean, how many people still struggle with anger or lust? You know, discipleship is not an overnight thing. So I don't know how people like me can say, oh, I'm going to struggle with all these things to hit the grave and I'm going to have blind spots that won't come out for another 20 years. Oh, but you need to have it all worked out within, you know, a couple hours of your conversion. Yeah, and like also with, and I've heard you say this as well, like about the arguments, like, you know, nobody's coming to Jesus based on the argument. And that certainly was the case for me.

It was like, I can, I'm like, there's some truth here, but I'm not feeling the love to like say yes. So within that, it's like, you're not going to change anyone's mind by you calling them the correct pronoun. Right. Correct pronoun. Like if they're wanting to go by he, and you're still insisting on using she,

you know, like nobody, well, now I understand that I'm, you know, it's just, it's not going to be that. Just psychologically, it's a stiff arm, even if it's a true, even if it's true, it's still a stiff arm version of truth rather than an inviting version of truth, which Jesus, whatever he did, he was, when he proclaimed the truth, it was an inviting kind of way, you know. So your dysphoria, you mentioned in passing that you've always have experienced it. I mean, if you go back to when you're three, four, your earliest memories, you always had this kind of disconnect that you felt. Is that?

Yep, that's accurate. Yep. I would say, yeah, as young as like six or seven. On a scale of like mild to severe, are you kind of all across that spectrum throughout your life and even today? I would say it's pretty mild. It comes and goes. And the thing with dysphoria for me is that there's some seasons of my life like currently I'm kind of in one where I really don't have super bad dysphoria I've I'm I'm like oh shoot I'm talking about dysphoria and I'm in a season where it's like not as high so but it kind of plays with you that um because

I'm not really in the season right now it's almost hard to like pull from a season that has been super intense okay um to the point where like it just kind of tricks you of like do i even have it yeah do i even have dysphoria so it it sometimes is like that yeah as weird as that sounds what can you identify certain things that lessen the dysphoria? Like the fact that you're in a season now where it's like, I'm doing pretty good. You know, what would you credit that to? Obviously God probably, you know, is at the bottom of those reasons.

But I mean, there's probably a lot of people out there that do, that are trying to follow Jesus and do have significant dysphoria. What would you say? Or yeah, let me just, I'm asking too many questions. What are the things that you've identified that lessen the dysphoria? So I think anxiety, which is so weird because when I was a kid, high school, whatever, I looked at anxiety like I don't have that. That's not a struggle that I have. And yeah, whatever. So when it gets bad

is sometimes when I have really bad anxiety. So the anxiety triggers dysphoria. So if you can reduce or get rid of the anxiety, then you see a causal link between those two? between those two? Yeah, I think for me anyway, I do. It's more of like when I have anxiety about something that, you know, something isn't right in my life or I'm worried about something else. And then I go to look in the mirror and I'm like, man, this doesn't even align. It's kind of like a confirmation that like your life is not how you want it to be always. Yeah, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like, I don't know which one comes first, necessarily. Because I do feel like there's, there are times that like my body, you know, I would never say that it just completely,

it's like, I don't deal with it. And I'm fine with, with wearing feminine clothing, because that's not the case. So, um, you know, wearing what I like to wear, hiding certain aspects of my body help reduce that anxiety and that dysphoria. Um, because I'm very aware of like how my neckline is. I'm very aware of like my love handles and how my fat distributes throughout my body. You know, I'm very aware that, um, in a man, it doesn't look like this. So I'm very good at like identifying that not only in myself, but in others. Um, so yeah, that's That's interesting. I want to, well, not shift gears, really, but so in the conversation and in research, especially in the last few years,

it's almost like you have two, well, more than two, but two umbrella kind of categories of trans people or trans identifying people or gender dysphoria. You have the kind of early onset people who have always had this from childhood. But as I'm sure you know, in the last few years in particular, there's been this almost, I mean, massive increase. It's a 5000 percent increase among trans identifying teenage females who have no prior experience or symptoms of gender dysphoria. And then you look at their kind of social environment and there seems to be what some, I mean, liberal scholars would suggest, you know, social contagion that, you know, at their you look at their school and it's like, you know, all their friends are trans and their favorite professors trans. And it's there seems to be saying in their own social media, you know, eight hours a day looking at all, you know, a lot of like you were saying, like YouTube channels of trans people, whatever. How do you and I just just I i mean just yesterday i mean i get these emails a growing number all the time of parents saying what do i do my daughter who

had no evidence of any dysphoria never said i am a i am a boy i want to be a boy whatever they may had some kind of tomboyish things like they didn't love to wear dresses and they like sports or whatever but um then they went away to college and, you know, they came home and said, I'm I'm going to start transitioning. I'm a boy. And then they look at all their friends and all their friends are trans. And the parents like, what do I do? I can't even I can't even do anything to put the brakes on, you know, taking radical steps, irreversible, you know, steps for transitioning. radical steps, irreversible, you know, steps for transitioning. How do you, well, have you seen that side of the conversation?

How do you process that makes sense? And then I want to ultimately ask you for advice to give these parents because they're just, I'm at a loss. I'm like, I don't know any real success stories where the parents said, hey, you know, let's think through this a little bit more. Usually any kind of reaction that's nothing but 110% affirming just pushes them farther away. So I don't know if the parents should just kind of totally back off or I don't know.

I'm really at a loss. Anyway, yeah, I would love your thoughts on that side of this conversation. Yeah, it's super interesting. And I've heard, you you know like trans is like trendy you know and kind of like and so i think that that's it might be i don't know for sure but like it might be a manifestation of like how that is and i think it's which is very different from your experience in the experience of people that have had early onset lifelong you know very yeah you were as a five-year-old chasing a trend when you had your dysphoria, you know?

Right, right, right. Yeah. It's very, I think, so this goes back to like the masculinity and femininity, the narrow pictures that we have. Because I think when in reading Larry Krebs book, Fully Alive, it really does outline because we hear, I think we hear more, but we don't really have practical ways in which God has this broad boundary for women and men. I think we kind of hear that. Yeah. But then practically speaking, it's like, okay, what's, what's brought about it? And so the only way that I'm actually able to use she pronouns is because of that book. Really?

Because we took off this whole thing of like, how does the world view masculinity and femininity? And we just put kind of back to my original question to Lori was what does God think about my gender identity it's like what does God think about masculinity and femininity because I think we think as like the world that we're so arrogant to think that we invented gender right we did not invent gender it's like it came from God so um to to kind of unwrap that what did he mean when he created us men and women? And then what did he mean when he created us like the gender word for, you know, male and female? Yeah. So anyway, I'm getting off topic. men over here, women over here. I push people and we're seeing it pushing people outside of

that boundary of not wanting to be so labeled and tied down. And so kind of this eruption of the non-binary. So, so when I feel the most comfortable is when I'm with people that aren't assigning me, well, you must be into this because you are a female and you're a girl and we're all girls here. So you know what I'm talking about. It's when it's much more broad and open. So I think, yeah, I don't know if that has a part to do with it is that they're kind of looking at these, these two ways of saying, well, man, I really don't want to be in either of those. And I certainly don't feel like that's accepted. So being able to open up and broaden, you know, these two.

I mean, in my experience, and I'm very nervous to kind of tell people what their identities mean for them. So I'm just making an observation, I guess. When I hear people talk about being, say, non-binary or whatever, especially with younger people, what that often means is I don't fit those stereotypes. You know, like I don't fit the strict, these polarizing kind of narrow masculinity and femininity. It's like, well, I don't fit in either of those boxes.

So I'm somewhere in between. So it has nothing to do really with, you know, because some people hear non-binary and they think, oh, are you like intersex? Do you have, you know, both male and female anatomy or whatever? But it's really, it has to do with not only gender identity, well, gender identity, but as that relates to these cultural stereotypes that are unfortunately reinforced by the church. I would say oftentimes unintentionally, I mean, take like men's retreats and women's retreats. Let me just ask you straight up, Kat, would you be eager when you see, you know, any church, you know, the little announcement,

we're going to have a women's retreat and it's typically pink. It has flowers and it has all these activities that right what are those activities what what you tell me what are they going to be doing at this women's retreat yeah it's like arts and crafts weekend you know and and i am not arts and crafts um yeah like oh yeah i i'm not eager at all and it's not necessarily because of the activity although it would help to do like some football or something like you know yeah have something a little bit non-stereotypical um but i get worried because i'm like how is my presence there going to affect the dialogue the vibe just kind of all that i'm like will i be welcomed into a women's

retreat i don't necessarily have a desire to go to the men's retreat right um but yeah do you prefer hanging out with with in everything you said like would you rather hang out with a bunch of guys and a bunch of girls i mean just i would rather hang out with women really yeah would you have said that two years ago or four years ago? Yeah, for sure. Like all of my friends are girls. So is that different? I mean, because I – would you say that's different than most trans –

Yeah. Yeah, all growing up I had mostly girl friends. Okay. Yeah. I didn't feel really safe with, with guys. And maybe that has something to do with like, yeah, I'm just like, all I'm thinking about is going back to the, to Larry Krebs book about these two fears. Like he talks about the fear of men and the fear of women. And so when I read his book, I'm like, you know,

kind of really skeptical, right? Like, if I'm really meant to be a man, and I am a man, my fear is going to align with the men. It did not at all. Okay. So, so, like saying, like men's core fear is that they will be like, weightless, you know, just not have this impact. And for women, it's this, this fear of inviting and nobody comes. And so feeling like invisible. And that is my core fear is that I invite people and they don't come like that just for me. So I don't know if it's like, I didn't hang out with men because our,

and looking at my motivations and my actions out of that fear anyway this is giving like too far down this rabbit trail but like this is good um i didn't align with what i couldn't i just didn't resonate too much with with men's action from reading this book like seemingly how they how they moved and how they interacted based off that, that possible fear that they're acting out of. I resonated more with, with women and like, let's all be together. And like, let's, you know, this kind of community thing that, that's just where I felt most comfortable.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay, cool. That's helpful. Why don't we, we can't, we got to talk about the bathroom thing. Yeah. First of all, I want you to kind of like, what's your experiential kind of, what am I trying to say? How do you navigate the whole bathroom dilemma? And then what advice would you give to pastors, church leaders who are asking, I think really good questions about, okay, we want to be inviting to trans people. What can we do without making it just a free for all, like, you know, all gender bathroom, you know? Right. Yeah.

Yeah. This one is this one's tricky. So my fear for, for going into the women's restroom is not because like, I have a strong desire to go into the male restroom. It's because when I walk into a women's restroom, I'm often, you know, I get the double take or, like, the head turn of, like, who is just walking into our bathroom. And so it's the reaction of just me being me going into the restroom that I'm fearful of. just me being me going into the restroom that I'm fearful of. So, and I'm, I've been in men's restrooms before when I was, it was kind of like, okay, you know, I wouldn't say a lot. I wouldn't say frequently, but there's an equal, almost worse fear going into the men's room of like, I don't pee the same. And like, what happens if somebody walks in? And like, what if I don't pass and I'm in the male restroom? So like,

there's, I would say in a more intense fear of that happening than just going into the women's restroom and just saying like, I'm never going to see them again. Probably it'll be fine. Like it'll be done and I'll just, I'll be relieved and I'm so many different levels. So, you know, but I always scope out a place that, you know, the bathroom isn't used very often or hopefully a drenter neutral bathroom or like some type of handicapped single stall that I can go into. When I see that in a space, I am so much more likely to go and revisit that space again. So like if it's a coffee shop or a restaurant or something like that, or a church,

if I know that a church has a place that I can go to the bathroom, I'm going to like have the amount of coffee that I really like, you know, on a church service, which is going to make you much more likable. Yeah. That's okay. So that would that be your, your advice is if you're a church that wants to be inviting to actually wants trans, trans identified people to not want to turn around and walk out, having some single stall bathrooms would be really – because would you say this is pretty universal for trans people that the public bathroom thing is a cause of serious anxiety when trans people are out in public? Yeah, I would say so. And honestly, I had the privilege of talking to a woman who – she almost looks like a guy, but she doesn't feel like one. So she's,

she identifies as a lesbian and bathrooms for her are equally, I think, uncomfortable, almost like as for me. And I'm just like, wow, how do you deal with that? And she, you know, it's kind of the same thing. It's this, again, these, these very narrow, rigid, this is what you should look like when you're walking into a restroom and for her to feel like a woman and be kind of almost like rejected like that every single time and have an invoke a reaction to someone. So I don't know if she would be pro, you know, a neutral bathroom or she would use that. But I know for me and others, I think it would be like, okay, if I don't feel like dealing with that right now, or until I'm like attending a church, they know me and it's okay, then I'm fine with using the public. It's hard because as much as we try, we're never going to be able to change

the public kind of perception. Because people could say, well, it's all these women's fault for doing a double take or misidentifying people, whatever. And that may be true, but it's inevitable, of course. I mean, if I was in a guy's bathroom, even though I, you know,

I'm tremendously flexible on stereotypes and all this stuff. I mean, and somebody came into the men's bathroom and they looked female, even if they weren't, I don't know their gender identity. I don't know if they have dysphoria or not, but my initial reaction, but whoa, is that a, you know, it's just gonna happen, right or wrong. you know, it's just gonna happen, right or wrong. So it seems like the best solution is to not, it is a single stall bathroom. I don't know of any other better solution. Because you could say, well, people need to change their view and broaden their understanding of what it means.

Of course. Okay, fine. But realistically, yeah. But I think the single stall. Yeah. Well, what would you say to somebody who said, well, Kat, I mean, why don't you you wouldn't have this problem if you wore a dress, grew your hair long, whatever. I mean, would they get the middle finger? Or have you had that saying, well, you're you're bringing this on yourself or the way you're, you know, presenting yourself or whatever? or whatever yeah um I think in in maybe not the bathroom issue but that has kind of been um a theme that kind of like idea of like well if you would just and insert the blank of like you would just wear earrings or if you would just grow out your hair a little bit longer you know like when I do go into a women's restroom and I'm wearing a hat and I'm just like at a restaurant I do take off the hat. I try to like accentuate my chest a little bit more so that I'm like, if I do and when I get that double take, I can, you know,

I have some type of feature that, that shows that I'm female. But yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I could. But, but again, like that, a majority of my life is not going to the bathroom and entering those spaces. Um, and there, there is that disconnection that's still, so it, it's, it's just bringing on a whole nother host of problems of like, you know, the self-hating and like the whole, like, you know, just getting frustrated with and like the whole like you know just getting frustrated with how my body is and um yeah it's just kind of trading one set of problems for another i could yeah be expensive to redo my wardrobe though i mean realistically for well first of all that's that's just it's easy for someone else to say without having a clue what it's like to experience this for you,

or even just like having the flexibility to dress the way you want and wear your hair the way you, I mean, it's just, it's, yeah, I can imagine the question itself would just be annoying to hear, but, um, um, oh, there's another, um, shoot. There was a question. I really want to, oh, oh, I have a question that I get from, uh, a lot of just straight Christians who are really innocent in the question. And I think they're scared to ask it cause it might sound offensive or shouldn't I know this, whatever, but is it, I just got it the other day, actually.

Um, do all or most lesbian couples have one person who is more in the partnership, more domineering, more for lack of better terms? I don't even I don't think this is offensive, but more butch and then the other partner to be more typically feminine. It seems and I don't have a statistic. I don't have any kind of whatever, but that does seem to be the majority. Is that is that a valid observation? I mean mean it doesn't really matter but i for whatever reason i get that question a lot like is there always kind of one that's a little more butch and one that's more feminine um yeah i mean from my experience yes uh from from people that i see um but i think even if you have like two fairly feminine women together, their personalities might mimic, you know, kind of that. It's very interesting.

It's like, why? It might point back to more of God's design than it doesn't. So let's just say you're more, you're a lesbian couple. Ones might be more, is butch offensive or no? It depends, I think, on who, um, but no. Okay. I'll keep using it. That's how they might identify. So. Okay. I just don't know if it's like a, uh, yeah, if it's feels kind of, maybe it depends on who's using it too.

Maybe I shouldn't use it unless I really know the person. No, but I know that some people, that's how they identify. Right. Okay. That's what I thought. Yeah. So it's almost like if there is kind of a more, a more butch, a more feminine person, that that is expressing some kind of creational longing for, for, for difference. Albeit maybe maybe you know against the grain of god's original design is that what you're hinting at or yeah yeah that's kind of yeah okay you know i i i stay away from that um that like really digging into that of like finding

out why because i think at this stage uh it's just not helpful. Yeah. However, though, like inside look into my mind of like, how I'm looking at this is, is that I think that that's a real possibility. Yeah. I know, at least from, again, I'm just repeating what some of my gay, male gay friends have said that like, in the male gay community, there's, one of my friends says it's pretty much across the board that you have doms and subs, the dominant and the sub. And there's a lot more subs, and you have doms and subs, the dominant and the sub. And there's a lot more subs and you have doms and subs are looking for doms or whatever. Right, right. And I just, yeah, I don't, yeah.

Yeah, I get nervous asking like possibly invasive questions with people. It's easier for my gay male friends. I could kind of ask whatever I want, you know. And I don't even know if I've ever asked same-sex attracted female about the kind of, is there something similar among lesbians? Yeah, I would say, yeah, that's, I can't think of a relationship that is to extremely feminine people. Yeah. You know, and, and that meaning, like, I've seen, you know seen both in the couple like putting on makeup and things like that, but there tends to be one that's a little bit more masculine for lack of a better term. It's kind of like who cares? It's more of a curiosity question.

And sometimes those possibly invasive questions that are just out of curiosity can be like maybe maybe, maybe build that relationship a bit more before you start throwing out things that. Right. And I think if you're, if you're trying to, to draw a conclusion, like we're maybe kind of like having like a question mark by, I'm not going to sit here and dig into that to support the argument. But I do think it is, it's an interesting observation. All right. Hey, we're coming up on an hour. So I want Kat, can you, um, well, two things. Um, first of all, you,

do you work with, um, the journey well workshops or, um, I know, or what's your involvement with those? I want you to talk about those and what they are and what people, what kinds of people can take advantage of those workshops. But what's your involvement with the Journey Well? Yeah, I'm actually, I'm not super involved at this point. We did, so Lori and Whole My Heart Ministries, they put on these Journey Well workshops and they kind of basically equip the church and leadership um for for those just wanting to know how do we walk alongside um lgbt people and just people honestly it's really cool how it starts out with this lgbt thing and the tension is just so high in the room and then it's it just gets deflated because we're just talking about people

and needs and human core needs that we all just have. So that's how it kind of starts out, but it's anybody who's just wanting to walk well and better engage this conversation. So churches, youth groups, whole of my heart ministries, they just go and they equip. So you hire them and they come in all day workshop. And yeah, but I was on, we were kind of testing out these webinars.

And so it was me and Lori, my mentor and the executive director of Whole My Heart Ministries. And yeah. Lori's going to be on. She's going to, in a half hour, I'm having Lori on. So your podcast will probably be back to back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah yeah that's awesome um and so so they come it's not like oh this is a webinar

you can attend from a distance but they did do a webinar um before and so lori and i were on there basically telling our story and we we had like a similar type of conversation back and forth um but that has kind of grown into you know yeah they yeah, they, her and Matt, um, her husband, they go out and they, um, just have like an all day workshop. Awesome. Sweet. That's Hold My Heart Ministries. Uh, if you just Google that, you'll, you'll get the website, Hold My Heart Ministries.

Um, lastly, how can the church love cat? Um, I don't want to apply this to all trans identified people because that's such a diverse group, but you in particular, what do you see, what would you love to see the church grow in, in this large conversation? really talking about the stereotypes and kind of what what's expected of men and women in the church and what's expected of them as men and women of God and and to really explore how they can live fully into who God made them to be and not so much well you know this is what you should do and have it be like action. But just how we can better pursue Christ as men and women and know that those are very broad. Because I think as we dig into what does God really mean and what has God, what has God intended for us to be men and women of, you know, his children?

Yeah. I think that one will find that they're pretty broad boundaries with a lot of room to run in between. And then the second would just be, is there people like me that are in leadership? You know, are there people that are same-sex attracted and submitting, you know, their sexuality to Christ and walking with this, you know, this type of limp, you know, and those pastors that have gender dysphoria, you know, are we represented and how can we be engaged with in the church and just put our arms around those people.

Because I think that that was one thing I was always looking for is for who, who looks like me in church. We have a mutual friend, I won't say his name or the church or anything that was recently let go because he said he struggles with gender dysphoria, but it was submitting that to Jesus. Right. I don't know all the story.

That's why I don't want to, you know, say anything more public than that. But that's, if his side of the story is true and correct, I mean, gosh, that sets us back quite a bit. If what you're saying is the actual goal is that we would have those kind of people, people struggling with this kind of limp, to fire them or let them go or force them to whatever it was. I mean, that's just, oh, I don't. Right. Yeah. And I think just engaging that and truly understanding it, you know, of, of what does it really mean to be trans or to be, you know, to struggle with gender dysphoria and, and to really know what that looks like. Yeah. I think that that's, you know, to struggle with gender dysphoria and to really know what that looks like. Yeah.

I think that that's, you know, just kind of learning the language type of thing is that's really crucial in order to get to that place that we have those people in leadership. Do you get pushback for identifying as trans in the Christian community? Yeah, I think so. If I left it as I am transgender, I think I would.

But I make it a point, even with trans people to, you know, who are in the LGBT, like, I'm like, this is what I mean by when I, you know, when I say transgender. So it's that extra step of like saying, it's just to describe my disconnection, this, you know, this, this weird dissonance. you know, this, this weird dissonance. Um, but I think, yeah, like if I were to just say I'm trans, it would be kind of those questions that we were talking about earlier of like, what's your pronouns? What's your new name? When are you transitioning? Yeah. Okay, cool. Kat, thanks so much for being on the show. Um, I don't know when I'm going to see you next. Maybe, maybe in the fall sometime. Um, I'll probably be on Grand Rapids. I'm sure I'll be on grand rapids before the year is over so we'll have to awesome we'll have to hang out or yeah if you want to come out to boise and get another tattoo and i know it run over another teenager with your bike

inside story yeah in boise oh yeah there's one bo Boise casualty in Bodo, though those local people will know what that is. Anyway, there's a whole story there we won't get into. But Kat, thanks so much for being you and you truly are a gift to the church. Thanks for being vulnerable and talking about stuff that I'm sure is personal stuff and isn't just an issue out there, but it's part of your story. So thanks so much for being willing to open up. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for having such good questions. It's so nice to have an outlet and to, to hopefully, you know, just impact the church and people that are trying to engage this topic and,

and, and, you know, not wanting to jump to either side. So thank you. Cool. my pleasure. All right, have a good one. All right, you too.