Theology in the Raw - 759: #759 - Racism, tribalism, and prophet-poets in the evangelical church: Propaganda (Jason Petty)

Episode Date: September 30, 2019

It’s been said that artists are the prophets of the church. Propaganda is the embodiment of that truth. Preston sits down with Prop for the first time to discuss his journey in evangelicalism. Son of a Black Panther father, raised in a Latinx and then white neighborhood, journeying in and (sort of) out of reformed evangelicalism, and now outspoken toward the supremacy of Jesus in all things and the social-political implications of the gospel, Prop is a voice that needs to be reckoned with. Prop and Preston talk about racism, tribalism, hip-hop, the gospel and culture, white evangelicalism, and humility—among many other things. Support Preston Support Preston by going to patreon.com Connect with Preston Twitter | @PrestonSprinkle Instagram | @preston.sprinkle Check out his website prestonsprinkle.com If you enjoy the podcast, be sure to leave a review.

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. Really quickly, hey, if you want to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. This is a listener supported podcast. I am able to do the podcast because I have quite a few awesome supporters who support the show. If you want to become a part of that awesome community of podcast supporters, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. That's patreon.com forward slash. I'm also speaking at various places and I'm working on various things and I'm blogging about this, blogging about that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Honestly, I don't want to talk about that right now because I want to talk about my guest today,

who is the one and only Propaganda. You may say, wow, a mother named her son Propaganda. Actually, a mother did not name her son Propaganda. She named him Jason Petty. But Jason Petty is an amazing artist. He is a, I consider him a prophet to the American Evangelical Church. He's an incredibly good thinker. He's a humble Christian. He has something to say to the American evangelical church. And when propaganda speaks, I listen. I love his posture. I love his wisdom. I love his humility. I love his creativity, both in his music and in his speaking. Propaganda co-hosts with his wife, Alma,

they have a podcast together called the Red Couch Podcast. I would highly encourage you to check out the Red Couch Podcast, where Propaganda and his wife, Alma, and he reminded me that his wife does not call him Propaganda or prop, which, yeah, I think it'd be actually kind of rad if my wife would call me prop or propaganda. I'm going to try to talk to her about that. We'll see how it goes. Anyway, we talk about race relations in the church. We talk about what it is, what it's like growing up as a black Christian in a largely white

evangelical American context, what it was like growing up in a largely Latinx neighborhood and also a white neighborhood, being the son of a Black Panther father and dabbling in reformed circles of American evangelicalism and some various maybe shifts in his, I don't know, in his art, in his music, in his thinking in the wake of the Trayvon Martin murder back in, I believe it was 2012. Anyway, we had a fantastic conversation and I'm so excited for you to listen to it. So why don't I just get out of the way and have you engage this really fascinating conversation I had with the one and only Jason Petty, aka Propaganda. All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. I am here with, I'm going to say propaganda, because that's how most people know you by.

But you're Jason Petty. Yeah. Most people I know just refer to you as prop. I mean, when you hear prop, is that the most common way people refer to you? That's the most common. Prop, okay. So thanks so much for being on the show as prop. I mean, when you hear prop, is that the most common way people refer to you? That's the most common. Prop. Okay. So thanks so much for being on the show, man.

I really appreciate it. Yeah, no problem. Unless you're married to me. She doesn't say prop. She doesn't say prop? No. Jesus. Is it Jason?

I don't know if you have an explicit warning on your thing, but there are things that she calls me that. thing, but there are things that she calls me that. Well, you know, this is, uh, I branded this theology in the raw on purpose. So there, honestly, no matter what you do, um, uh, we're not going to edit it out. So you can, you can, you be you. Why don't we start to, uh, uh i mean i would say a large majority of my audience is going to know who you are at least from a distance uh but for those few that might not uh give us a story who is uh jason petty aka propaganda and then uh we'll go from there yeah um south central los angeles uh born and and raised between there and like 20 minutes east in like the San Gabriel Valley. That's going to be in the Puente area. I've lived in pretty much all of the sort of cornucopia of Los Angeles in the county.

And I do a hybrid of sort of hip hop and poetry. One half of a podcast I do with my wife called The Bad Couch Podcast. um one half of a podcast i do with my wife called the couch podcast uh we talk about sort of uh social and political commentary but just from a sort of a brown person's perspective um and uh and my music kind of takes on this sort of the same tone social political commentary uh yeah and um yeah i've been doing sort of music and poetry professionally for almost 10 years now which is crazy to say um i got two daughters one of which started high school today which is so weird oh my god uh but she's kind of living my dream man she's doing high school at like in like downtown you know i'm saying and like it's a high school for the arts like

oh yeah and so that's what i mean in la i wish i could have went to like a high school for the arts you know yeah so yeah so that's that my wife has a phd in ed policy and social context she's usually the smartest person in the room um and uh even when she's not in the room she's a smart person um yeah and uh i grew up in a latino neighborhood um you know our house is bilingual and my daughter's learning my baby daughter's learning mandarin so she's about to be trilingual oh my god jerk and uh yeah yeah and that's kind of what i do what was your experience growing up in a latino neighborhood what was that like um i mean in some sense it's like it's all i knew so i i kind of like i kind of have much to compare it to uh but are you just it's just like you're

my my father was a vietnam war, but he was also Black Panther. He was part of the Civil Rights Movement. So because of that, we had a very strong Black identity at home. So I never felt too much. I never felt a way about, like, not loving who I was. It was just more like I didn't understand why the people outside didn't love what I was. It was just more like, I didn't understand why the people outside ain't love what I was, you know? Like, what are y'all missing? You know what I'm saying? But it, it, it teaches you, I think, first of all,

does this already have an understanding of just what it means to be bicultural or multicultural just to be able to like already relate to the other, you know what I'm saying'm saying so sort of the the type of um kind of tribalism i think that somehow or another when you whether it's ethnic or even religious like when you start when you become when you become a christian just kind of have this like idea that like who's safe and who's not like you grow up in an environment like mine it's just just like those, those rules just, they just seem silly, you know? Um, because it's like, there is no other, like you're already, you're, it's like, I don't, I don't,

I live among the others. So I don't understand what the other is, you know? I wonder what differences there'd be. I guess you can't really, I don't know if you can compare it. I mean, growing up as a minority in a Latino neighborhood, how would that have been different if you were a minority in a white neighborhood? Do you find – Yeah. I think that there was – well, one is because it's still hood. We were not – we weren't privileged in any way you know what i'm saying like we went to the same schools we died in the same bullets you know i'm saying like the difference for me was like um you know gang activity wasn't necessarily an option because i wasn't latino you know i'm saying um and my and my family which was down the street a couple blocks you know over you know they were getting involved in some of that stuff. But since I wasn't there,

I know for me, like I avoided a lot of that. Now, when we moved, we moved to the suburbs a little later, like my parents got a tax return and then we moved sort of what we would call inland. And that's where I did high school. And there was a predominantly like white space and it was like i felt like a zoo animal you know like i was just this like unicorn to them and uh and that was that was pretty like that was pretty jolting you know i'm saying because i just again i didn't understand what y'all ain't understand yeah you know like i i couldn't possibly be the first brown person you've met like are you serious how like how am i the first one you know and i

just don't understand like what is so confusing about this you know i'm saying like wait wait would they say that or is that just how you felt or both no that's what they would say really in l.a one guy was like one guy was like hey is your okay i don't want to cuss because i was about to say you can't it's fine yeah okay he was like hey is your shit white because mine is brown and i just wondered if yours was and I just looked at him like this is the dumbest question I ever heard like for real what? you know and just like little things like that

to where it was just like I'm like why would you what do you know about humans? like how do you like this is just a species bro like really? that's the type of question you're asking? yeah

what so and by the way, you could, you could, you could speak completely freely. You're not going to offend me. And if you offend my audience there, you don't see them anyways. It doesn't matter. So speak as freely as seriously, like whatever. What, what did that kind of environment do towards your view of just white people in general? And then I got so many related questions with like growing up evangelical context and so on, but.

Yeah. I just felt like the white people I had knew, I had known before that like sort of experience was just like, I want, it was hard for me to figure out which one of you were the norm. Like what, which one of you should I expect? Cause like, so for example, there was a family across the street from me in the hood. His name was Thomas Polkenaar. It was the only white family for miles, but I tell you what, he taught me all this. Thomas taught me all the words to Paul Re revere you know in beastie boy song

you know i'm saying uh if you're familiar with humble beast like i thomas was my best friend you know i'm saying like so i just had this other experience that when i ran into this it was like okay so is this is is this how y'all act when we're not around? Is this, or do I just know, like, help me swear this. It's like, do my friends' friends have family that think like this? Like, it was just more, more just like, it was disorienting because I just didn't understand. Because, I mean, like I said, having a Black Panther father, I was well aware of racism you know i was well aware of like what what uh what what world i was about to get thrown into

but i just thought i guess like anybody else like you're you're looking at like a kid and you're going real like you know and then just like all of my like inner city antennas being like, I should, I should beat the crap out of you. Right? Like, isn't that what I'm supposed to do right now? You know, just, right? That's, that's kick his ass, right? You know, it just, just, and, um, but just like the, like, knowing, well, you're pretty outnumbered, man. Like look around. Like really? You really want to like start something right now? You know, so it was just disorienting. Would you describe it as like mildly racist, blatantly racist or just ignorant or a blend of all three? It's probably a blend of all of them. It depended on, you know, what situation like that. So it did teach me that like, yeah, this is, there's, there's not a monolith, you know what I mean? There's variants of thought among every people, you know what I'm saying? So like, there were times that it was just like, oh, you honestly don't know. There were times that like, oh, you're trolling me. You know, there are times that like, you know, you're looking back and figuring this out you know i'm saying and then there's like the microaggressions and then there's like oh yeah

nah this kid yeah yeah you're you're legitimate you guys you know i'm saying uh you know and it's just like it's you you you figure it out you know i'm saying and then even when that kid makes that joke like you see the other guy or the other girl that was like yo that was i don't know but that was kind of far like when you're watching you're watching almost like the other white kids look at that white kid and be like what bro like yo i don't know dude that actually sounded racist we were just kidding like that's that's pretty bad you know yeah yeah so were you were you raised uh in the church or what's your kind of christian so my parents became believers in elementary school and we just kind of like founded church

in a phone book and um so my mother it's hard to describe man because it's like who wasn't at church you know i'm saying like it wasn't like like who didn't go to church you know i'm saying like so it wasn't that we like didn't go to church you know or uh or knew who jesus was or that he was lord you know um but my father was like i mean he was just it's hard for me it's hard for me to say that I was a Christian. You know what I mean? But I was, yeah, I mean, at junior high, I think I was like, I'm the product of like a good youth ministry.

You know what I mean? But we were, I mean, we were inner city kids. Like, you know, kids in my group, they were our neighborhood drug dealers. You know what I'm saying? Like, they was bang banging, sleeping with drug dealers. You know what I'm saying? Like, they was bang banging, sleeping with each other. You know what I'm saying? Like, we were an inner city church and our youth leader was like, you know, ex-con. You know what I'm saying?

And like, you know, who the Lord saved and loved us and didn't want us to fall into the same traps. You know what I'm saying? And so like, I, I heard, I mean, I heard the gospel pretty young, you know, but, um, and they were doing their best, my, my, my home, but it wasn't, I can't say in the way that somebody else would think when they say I grew up in a Christian home. I was like, nah, not like you, me. Yeah. You didn't go to a water and watch veggie tales no never heard any of that you know what i'm saying we did go to camp once i remember we did go to we did go to uh youth camp uh the californians would know like we went to hume lake oh yeah yeah and it was funny

because it was like little did we know they had one week in the summer that they lowered the prices for like the inner city churches, which we didn't know. I thought, dang, this costs a lot to come. It's like, oh, we're the low income churches. We're the low-income church. We're okay. I bet they dreaded that week, by the way. I would love to talk to the organizers to see how did you look forward to it. We're ratchet. We're pretty ratchet. But, I mean, I read the gospel here.

I'm not going to lie. That's where I want to say I became a Christian, at Hugh Blake. At Hugh Blake? No way. I might have been there because I was there a few summers we're as close to the same age what do you know what year that was is that like late 90s or middle school oh middle school definitely the middle school ones okay so how would you describe your uh for lack of better terms your like theological journey like where you so let's just go from from hugh blake conversion

to now what kind of churches what kind of christian subculture do you swim in and just theologically how have you yeah so you gotta remember like like i mean you know this you know california was not the bible belt like so our categories just look very different than the rest of america like they're still i mean it's still american evangelism yeah it's it's just different you know so um like i said i went to this like inner city non-denominational church that were you know leaned pentecostal you know but our were, you know, leaned Pentecostal, you know, but our pastor was, you know, APU, Azusa Pacific professor, you know what I'm saying? And then, you know, we had a Spanish speaking pastor, you know what I'm

saying? So it was just mainline non-denom, you know, with charismatic bends. But I didn't think much about the sort of theological positions we were having because our pastor was so intelligent that like he just, I guess now looking back, it would be like he would preach like a reformed calvinist like as far as like the the academia of it but he wasn't in any way a reformed calvinist so so it was just like so i had this like other sort of thing but like my family like my grandmother's brothers, you know, so my great uncles were like citizens of Zion missionary Baptist church in Compton, California. You know what I'm saying? So it was just like, that's my extended family is like,

they hoopers and moaners, you know what I'm saying? Who at the time, just because it was like, Oh, you know, my father was a black Panther. So I was, it was all about like intelligence and knowledge and stuff like that like i didn't want anything to do with them because i felt like it was it was not cerebral enough you know what i'm saying um plus it was just like you know it's my grandma's church you know what i'm saying since they wouldn't be here all day you know it's baptist so we're gonna be here all day it's a black baptist it's gonna be 17 songs five hours long you know so i

didn't want to be there um and then uh we didn't have there was like especially because like hip hop's such a big part of even my theological journey because the church i was in some of they were like these dudes were not only were some of, they were like, these dudes were, not only were they gangsters, they were graffiti writers, they were skateboarders, you know what I'm saying? So like,

hip hop was never, there was no, there was no subgroup of like Christian art. Like I just, I was a Californian. So like, you loved hip hop, you went where hip hop was.

So we were at the same hip hop spots. We were all freestyling,ling you know we were all sort of living this other thing it wasn't until college that somebody presented to me the idea of christian rap you know what i'm saying uh because i didn't know it was no such thing i knew plenty of rappers that were christians because churches weren't booking rappers so like i just didn't i didn't know that was a thing you know i'm saying yeah so that actually introduced me to other sort of theological worlds so like um knowing what it meant to be sort of a many universities reformed,

you know, and stuff like that. Like I just, it was hip hop that actually showed me that, you know what I'm saying? Um, yeah. And then there,

so I, uh, somehow took a deep detour into the reform world. Um, and it was partially because that's who was embracing hip hop. You know what I'm saying? At the time because again i just didn't and it was cool because again it was i come from a very again cerebral kind of

academic yeah thinking so i felt like oh this this is like scratching that itch right so i spent a lot of time there and then trayvon martin was killed and and again i come from a black panther father i come from a civil rights family so this was a a claritin call that like we need this we need to start talking you know i'm saying like there's something going on here and what it kind of like and it sort of uh confirmed some of my like uh uh uh concerns if you will because i couldn't understand why y'all love the Puritans so much. And I was like, why do you keep talking about the Puritans? I was like, these are slave owners. I don't understand why y'all love them so much.

You know what I'm saying? I was like, I don't understand how y'all so smart and you haven't connected these dots. So then when that happened and I just saw nobody was in any way affected by this murder of this unarmed black kid you know i'm so i guess like i don't understand why none of y'all so then that's when

like sort of and then you go into nashville and i went into nashville like thinking this is amazing you got like this church is on every corner what is that 10 commandments on the wall this is great dude you guys could just be you guys are just like openly christians you know that's crazy you know what i'm saying um and then just kind of like sod coming down and being like oh that's not really what's happening oh this is still the south oh this oh oh i'm in the south you know uh and um so so so that was there and then I just felt like just this just I just started noticing just this overwhelming sense of just like arrogance and just pompous kind of attitude and I just felt like this, whether it was purposeful or not, like there was just this like side effect of having such a emphasis on thinking right.

that I was like, I feel it welling up in myself because I'm looking down at my Mama Winnie and my Uncle CL who were, as I've known it, the holiest people I've ever met. You know what I'm saying? But they didn't know what I, they couldn't explain super lapsarianism. So somehow or another, their, you know, their conversion is less as valid as mine.

You know what I'm saying? So I was like, if my theology is making me arrogant and drawing a fence around another believer, then I need to think about my theology. So you're talking about your kind of reflection on your kind of journey and the reform kind of American. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's what, that's what it was. That's what, what was, I felt like what was being developed in me.

Like I wasn't growing in the faith. I was growing in arrogance, you know? And, and I just, and, and I just saw this just blatant disregard for the value of other humans, you know what I'm saying? And their lives. So I was like, something's not adding up. You know what I'm saying? So it made me pull out and just sort of like read a little more on the naughty list, you know,

and just kind of have a more global approach to what it means to be a part of the body, you know? And this is all in the wake of Trayvon Martin's murder. That's what started it, you know what I mean? So that's like 2012, right? Yeah. So that's kind of started this like sort of unraveling of what was a very linear, in my mind, like a very linear sort of trajectory of theology.

You know what I'm saying? Is that, is that what, yeah, from the Trayvon Martinin let's just say 2012 is that um and i haven't followed all of your work but as i see it it seems like that makes sense that your more recent at least your your uh hip-hop albums have taken a much more decisive socio-political emphasis would that be an accurate way to well here's thing. I think it's more noticed now because all of my music has always had that. Okay. Because, like I said, I come from a place where your social engagement, your orthopraxy and your orthodoxy were never separate. Right.

Those were never two different things. That's not where I come from. Okay. You know what I'm saying? I come from where every Tuesday, we're at the homeless shelter. You know what I'm saying? And every from where every Tuesday we're at the homeless shelter. You know what I'm saying? Every Wednesday we're at the food bank. Like I just come from that, you know, so I had no idea that people needed a chapter and verse to engage, you know, to engage for civic engagement. I just didn't understand that as a thing. So my music has always had that.

My music has always had the fragrance of scripture and it's always had a political engagement. I just didn't understand that as a thing. So my music has always had that. My music has always had the fragrance of scripture and it's always had a political engagement because like I said, I didn't know there were rules, you know, just like, just like, like if you listen to like a Wu-Tang album, it's always been five percenters. They've always had that in their music. You know what I'm saying? Mos Def, Talib Kweli, they've always had like Islam in their music. You i'm saying most deaf talib qali they've always had like islam in their music you know i'm saying just like i've always had christian in my music you know um so i think i think what happened was like the the because this was happening as i was stepping into

this like reformed world they were focusing going wait a minute now what are you what are you talking about what is this who's that person why are you talking about that and i'm like what do you mean why am i talking about that what you know so it kind of i did i definitely hit the gas a little harder because i was like oh oh you don't know this okay well let's talk some more so so yeah i i don't and i don't follow lecrae much at all but it seems like he's had a similar thing where he was kind of the poster child of the reform whatever but once you start pushing on the race thing um a little bit too much it's like okay you can do a little bit as long as within this kind of framework you know make sure you're still within this tribe but once you start stepping outside of that and really challenging i remember a few years ago

on fourth of july yeah he he tweeted i mean i i don't i laughed because it was so bold and necessary but he tweeted a picture of a slaves in a cotton field and says these are my these are my ancestors i retweeted it because i thought it was brilliant i'm like what what's the problem like i understand i understand the pushback that would say let's not only live in the past and not acknowledge progress i understand that i would agree with that but to literally whitewash the past or to not acknowledge the profound and lasting impact so the lasting social implications of this incredibly dark history of our our country you know that's just that's just naive like we don't need to we should we should say yes every time fourth of july we

should acknowledge maybe the good things america has done and also acknowledge the very bad things we have done to be okay with that. Anyway, I didn't even see it as an issue, but I think that – my question – well, here's where I was trying to go with this is has your sort of – I wouldn't say movement, but more maybe explicit addressing of some of these sociopolitical issues. Has that put you on the naughty list with some of the Reform tribes? Yeah, but the thing is, like, for me, I was never – like, Lecrae was a darling. Okay. You know, I was never a darling, you know, because I think I got on that world's radar. I kind of came out swinging as far as they were concerned.

You know what I'm saying? So I kind of came out swinging as far as they were concerned. You know what I'm saying? So the inroads I made were already, their introduction to me was like, yo, this is who I am. There was no real pivot. Like for, for, from the public perspective, McCray had a pivot, you know?

So for them, they, I think in a lot of ways, like not only was it like you're shooting out of sacred cows, I think for them, they felt betrayed. You know what I'm saying? Like, man, we made you a star. Like I'm trying to put you, put myself in their shoes. We made you a star and it was because we believed you were this. And it turns out you're not, you know what I'm saying? So I think that that was like the thing for him. I think for me, like I said, like, I mean, I never, I just wasn't. They love me like they love Lecrae.

You know what I'm saying? Right. I mean, they didn't love nobody like they love Lecrae. Really? You know, he was a unicorn at the time. You know what I'm saying? So I just think like, yeah, it's like anything, you know, when you play fair, when you play by the rules, you know, everybody loves you, you know what I'm saying? You don't shove too hard, you know what I'm saying?

Once you start shoving, it's like, yeah, you know, the casual listener is going to be like, man, I didn't come to you for this. I came to you for what you used to do, you know? I came to you for what you used to do. That's part of being an artist. It's part of being a full-grown, developed human. You're not going to be what you were 10 years ago. I hope you're not. You better not be.

What are some sociopolitical themes? Oh, there's something I wanted to bring up. I was going to say to say all one thing that happened i think for his music and for my music the ratcheting was up well a lot of times because that's what happened in culture culture ratcheted up you know i'm saying like just the world got more intense you know so because of that like we're living in the world you know i'm saying so so our music's going to reflect it, you know what I'm saying? So I think that that might be also what you're seeing. It's like we're just reflecting our times. Right, yeah.

Yeah, so what are some of those political, sociopolitical themes that especially in your latest album, Crooked, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I was just reading through some of the lyrics this morning, and I'm like, man, yeah, yeah, you're definitely hitting on some sacred cows here. But what I love about it is it doesn't – it feels like – and I hate – I really despise conservative liberal kind of labels and boxes and all that stuff. Let me just say you're – it seems like you're willing to challenge various tribes and not just sit back in one tribe lobbing bombs at the other.

You seem very fair. But yeah, so what are some of those social political themes that keep you up at night? if you're being, you know, using all the leads, you're being spiritually, theologically, intellectually responsible, then you can't just sit on one side of the one little square, you know, and lob them at the other. You know what I'm saying? And I tried to make an album that keeps you off balance in the sense that like, I'm shooting, I'm'm shooting forward i'm shooting at myself

i'm shooting to the right shooting to the left you know i'm saying like so that it's always ping-ponging between all of these different sort of like directional attacks you know i'm saying yeah um and a lot of times they're to myself, you know? Um, but I think, I think ultimately those themes are like, yeah, I want to challenge the concept of tribalism in the first place. Um, and then, uh, and then when we do that, like how we build up these sort of like Babel towers and, and then, uh, for the believer lie to ourselves and call that Christian living, you know what I'm saying? Um, in the sense of like, whether it's patriotism and just putting that up as like, you know, tantamount to our faith and it's just not, you know what I'm saying?

Like, so, so there's that, there's the idea of like putting, putting our hope in the collapse of a unfair system. Like, whereas like, I am satisfied when this evil system collapses and realizing that that's not gonna satisfy me either. And it probably won't ever collapse. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't put me off the hook. Like, I'm still, as Jesus says,

like, occupied till I return. Like, I still got, there are still image bearers in front of me, you know? And I still have a duty to fight for the dignity and honor of that, you know what I'm saying? But, like, the source of my rest is not if white people stop being racist like that's not going you know i'm saying so it's like so i think that there's again it's just the concept of tribalism in the first place and then everything

that comes with that you know what i mean um believing that you know the father has picked a political party he just just hasn't you know they're made up from the french revolution like they're not even that old you know what i'm saying so so you're just the motif of left and right that's yeah i mean that's that's the french parliament like you just do some homework you know what i mean and and the two ends of them are both like authoritarian like they kind of it's more of what i mean and and the two ends of them are both like authoritarian like they kind of it's more of a loop they meet at the middle you know i'm saying that's been my okay so thank you for saying this i feel like i keep saying that so so yeah my 30 second narrative raised steeped in fundamentalism swung kind of the other side now i don't i'm a

moderate jesus follower whatever um yeah on some issues i might sound conservative some issues might sound more liberal and i don't even like those categories anyway um but what i've seen having raised in fundamentalism and i get attacks now on both sides the rhetoric and posture um hold on a second i've got some dude drilling outside my house yeah there he is yeah goodness um the hold on a second yeah yeah i'm gonna turn this mic down i'm just gonna get really close anyway the rhetoric and posture of the conservative fundamentalist is almost identical when you go all the way to the side to the authoritarian kind of far radical left or whatever and i'm like i'll get sometimes tweets back to back that sound almost identical except for the thing that they're angry at me about you know i'm

like you two should go hang out man you guys sound and you know no effort to understand what i'm saying twisting any little thing in the worst possible light i'm like man what is this you know so funny man like take so out here like you take something like education where it's just like you have your far right fundamental it's just like the school system's brainwashing and we have to pull them out and just homeschool our kids the far left is like the school system's brainwashing them we gotta pull them out they just call it they just call it unschooling these fool call it homeschooling i'm just like okay So what you're saying is you want to be the sole like arbiter of information for your children. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

Yeah. Right. And so, Oh, Oh yeah. Yeah. Just like you're, you're, whether you're, whether you're extreme far left, you got a dictator, whether you extreme far right left you got a dictator whether you extreme far right you got a chancellor yeah you're still just looking at one dude yeah you're saying it's still it's still totalitarian right you know so like just you know take a second yeah it's like both both of the extremes don't know how to handle like humanizing in the midst of disagreement, like being exposed to robust presentations of alternative views where you can still humanize the other person and radically maybe disagree but still see them as – you're not the enemy necessarily unless you're really trying to beat me up or something. Unless you actually are. Yeah, there are some enemies out there. but yeah the enemy until you are the enemy

yeah um so so what's been how looking back now to 2019 on your journey in evangelicalism in and out on the front however you describe that i mean what are some blind spots? And I'm just going to say it. Obviously, American evangelicalism is profoundly white. And I don't... It doesn't mean... I mean, as a white person, I'm not saying that means every single white person is a problem at all.

But there is a whiteness to American evangelicalism. I'm just going to say obviously. Okay. What sort of blind spots to American evangelicalism? I'm just going to say obviously, okay? What sort of blind spots would you want people to think through as reflect on race and American evangelicalism? Yeah, I think that's a good question. One, I think that repentance and restoration within whiteness, restoration is within whiteness, within itself,

is something that I think that the evangelical world needs to really reckon with. It's just like, okay, hey, like, there are some serious realities about the way you've shaped your identity, you know, and there's some stuff that y'all just got to repent for it. And you just have to just recognize is just true, you know? And working in the same way that the rest of us are doing, working in our own sanctification, we all brought our crap to the cross. And I'm just saying, that's, that's just part of your goulash of crap. You know, say that you just got it. You just got to work through it, dude.

Like, you know, so so just the reality of that, just the detangling of sort of the American myths and like, you know, recognizing where you've been sold a bill of goods, like the whole, just the whole Nixon thing and just the religious right. Like y'all got duped cause like, you know what I'm saying? Like it's just being willing to like, like reckon with that. You know what I'm saying? So I think that that's one. I think when I think of myself, you know, including myself because I can't just like, I mean, I'm still a Western Christian. Like I even thought from, you know, you know, for a while, like, man, I was looking up, like,

Coptic churches. I was going to East. I was like, I'm out. I'm going Eastern Orthodox. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm going to figure it out, you know. But at the end of the day, I was like, yo, hey, prop, you're not Egyptian. Like, you're not from Egypt, bro.

Like, you're a poser. Like, you're from Egypt, bro. Like you're a poser. Like you're being a poser and that's they culture. A lot of they faith is wrapped in they culture. You not from they culture. So just, it is what it is, bro. You from California. Okay. Accept it. You are a Western Christian. What are you going to do? You know what I'm saying? So for me, it was like going, okay, now having said that, what I found is like, I'll take Peter and Paul, for example. I'll take Peter on the roof and Acts, you know, getting this vision of like, you know, called nothing I made clean, unclean. And Peter knowing exactly what, you know, God was trying to tell him at that moment,

how that is had to be an existential crisis. Like that's a, that's a pretty big pivot, you know, from what a faith you've been practicing for thousands of years and God going, I think you kind of missed it. I think you, I think you missed it. You know what I'm saying? Like, what do you mean? I missed it. Like this is from Deuteronomy, bro. Like what do you mean i missed it like this is from deuteronomy bro like what do you mean i missed it you know so i just don't know if i had really the guts to like hear what christ was saying at that moment of like and the same thing to have with paul being like yo hey homie you're persecuting me like yeah and just and just jesus just continually being like, no, no, no, no, no, them too. No, them too. Tense wider than you think it is. Them too. Them too. No. And just having the guts to like, take everything that I thought I knew and understood and was standing on solid, rigorous theological training

and having the guts to be like, hey, homie, you might be thinking about this. You might be thinking about this incorrectly. You know what I'm saying? And there's a them too. So I think that to me, that's what I've learned. That's what I would say is like, what are those? What are those?

I'm saying this for myself. That's why I'm able to do this this. That's why I did all I think about. I'm also a Western evangelical. He's like, I'm having to ask myself, where are those no bro them to where is where is God calling me to pivot and be like, you've actually I know you think you know, but there's a deeper story here. You know what I'm saying? That I was actually pointing at, and I'm trying to reveal this to you. You know what I mean? That's kind of where I'm thinking about it now. That's super helpful, actually. Oh, man. I mean, it's awesome that you're still – I love the emphasis on self-reflection

because oftentimes the older we get in the Christian faith and also the more you see blind spots in the church and other people, it can become easy to kind of think like, man, I got it all together, but it's those people out there that are the problem. Totally. To continue that kind of self-reflection, I think is admirable and necessary for a genuine Jesus follower. I'm curious, and I know we talked about avoiding tribalism and labels and stuff, but is there a person, people, or group of evangelical Christianity that you would resonate with most or people that you're like, man, these people or this person, I think they're really

getting it, you know? Yeah, that's, you know, that's hard, man. I think as an artist, I get to traverse so many different spaces. And I feel like, and even when I say like challenging tribalism as a whole, I think that there was a type, there's a type that kept us alive. Just like, you know, just the development of the human species. There was a type of tribalism that honestly like, hey, I can trust this person because when they tell me, hey, don't

eat that plant, I can believe you. You know what I'm saying? So there's a type of tribalism that honestly kept us alive. You know what I'm saying? So I'm just not saying the ideas, the whole thing needs to be thrown away but i i think that i think it's more where we decide to like draw the ropes so for

me it's like in any of these sort of diverse spaces i felt like you know just that there's there's been certain resonance or just fragrances of individual people within all these different circles that I've been like, I recognize this. This is beautiful. You know what I mean? So for me, like I traverse between, you know, like we talked about before, the like audio feed, liturgist world, and also the like catalyst and cue world you know i'm saying like i get to do all these things and i just get to meet like rad believers that like i honestly like don't know their their theological traditions i don't know what church they go to like i don't know it i just know i feel like i'm seeing the reflection of of the fruit of the spirit if you will to use like you

know christian language i feel like i'm just just seeing it in them you know what i'm saying yeah that's good so it's kind of hard for me to land on a on a whole like i i mean i'm not trying to like dodge the question like this is legit you know what i'm saying like i feel like even like i'll be even real even in my own home church there are times that i'm just like i don't know bro like i'm not i don't know if i'm feeling a lot of this you know i'm saying but i love nate you know i'm saying i think nate's a rad dude you know but that but that's good i mean i think you could be part of a tribe and not be tribalistic i think those are two different things one might so yeah so yeah so i go to like we're at a i go to a church plant in long beach that's part of the sbc you know i'm saying which you're an sbc shocker right you see what i'm saying i know

it's a shocker you know what i'm saying but like it's like it's a california one so it's like we don't it is different it's like no that's like costco you know i'm saying like that's gonna be like costco you know it's just like you can get anything what's your so long beach um you said who's who's what's the church can i ask the church yeah it's a reach fellowship um damon horton our pastor but it's like it's only three years old i might have been around yeah i've done some work down in orange county area i know long beach isn't orange County or is it? I know that's a huge debate. I got you.

I got you. It's a huge debate. No, I mean, I feel – I often – I don't know what tribe I belong to. Yeah, man. I genuinely love – like in the ministry that I do, we'll swing all the way from like conservative Baptist to Pentecostals to Catholics and UMC, FMC. I mean, RCH, I mean the whole wide range. And I could genuinely take things like appreciate certain aspects of every one of those things while saying, yeah, this, this maybe tribe,

I wouldn't quite identify with as much here. I wouldn't really fit into well here, but man, I could appreciate because at the end of the day, when you get to know people who are just trying to follow jesus is genuinely as well as they can i mean they got blind spots i got blind spots but when you get face to face with actual people you those labels and assumptions just kind of go to the they're just kind of noise i just feel like totally i just feel like we're all trying to put this like mosaic together that's this image of God. You know what I mean?

And it's like you just get different little chunks and flecks here and there. You know what I mean? And I just feel like for me, when I think about Holy Spirit, I feel like it's like that's when you it's like when you recognize like, oh, that's a fleck. That's a little piece. That's a piece of the image of God. You know what I'm saying? It's like snatch that's when you, it's like when you recognize like, Oh, that's a flex, that's a little piece. That's a piece of the image of God. You know what I'm saying? It's like snatch that, hold onto that. You know what I'm saying? Oh, there it is over there. Hold onto that. You know what I'm saying? And when you just see it, it's just like, I'm like, your lens is not so like descended so close into the particulars.

It's like, I'll pull it out. Cause I'm trying to see a bigger picture. And then you just kind of like reach in and be like, I want that piece. That's it. That's what I was looking for. Boom. You know, and then you could like put it on your wall. Like, okay, there's a part of the image. You know what I'm saying?

Like, I know I don't see the whole thing. I know I don't have the whole thing. But that little, whatever that was, that's a hint. You know what I mean? That's so good. Hey, man, I want to respect your time. We're pretty much out of time, but I want to make sure, um,

I talk about, uh, your, the red church podcast, which you do with your wife, Alma, and you're in season three. Is that like year three or just season three?

We just finished season three. Yeah. Which is year three. Uh, so we took it. So for the, for this one, we're taking it on the road.

Uh, we're going to do some live ones for season four. So you got to come to the recordings, the full shows. So you have a tour to the recordings. They're full shows. So you have a tour. What's it? A hard to love tour? Is that what it's called?

Hard to love tour. Where can people go to find out about that? So you can go to my website, just prophiphop.com. We'll be in Chicago, LA, Oakland.

We'll be in Nashville. We haven't announced the Nashville one, but you just heard it now. Boise, Idaho after that? We'll be in Nashville. We haven't announced the Nashville one, but, uh, Boise, Idaho, Boise, Idaho. After that,

Boise, right after that, maybe that might be like your high school experience. If, uh, if you, right,

right. It's just walking in. Like, yeah. Anyway. Hey, um, thanks so much for your work,

your ministry. And I've often said, so I, I'm not a, you know, I'm a, I ministry. And I've often said, I'm not a writer, academic. I'm not an artist. But man, I would be the first one to say that I think artists are the prophets of the church. I mean, they're typically five to 10 years out looking at where we're going and able to speak back, almost back in time in a sense. And so I just so love and value uh artists like

yourself who are doing amazing work so keep it up and i appreciate don't let don't let the attacks get to you i'm sure you get hit from oh i'm good all right man take care bro all right brother Thank you.